Football Daily - 72+: The EFL Podcast

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

On this week's 72+, hear from Derby manager Paul Warne on the club's run of 7 games without a win. BBC Radio Derby commentator Ed Dawes drops by to explain what's going wrong at the club. Shrewbury manager Gareth Ainsworth joins Aaron and Jobi this week to talk about his side's January transfer business and the takeaway of choice on deadline day! They debrief the latest managerial changes as Steven Schumacher replaces Ian Evatt at Bolton, and Gareth gives his take on Mike Dodds, the new man in at Wycombe. They also talk Carlisle, who sacked their manager after an eventful January transfer window. Plus, the report cards are out! Which clubs were top of the class with an A for their January business, and which clubs have been graded an E? Gareth and Jobi give their take on the National League's 3Up campaign - does the Football League need to do more to look after it's clubs, or should the National League be given an extra spot?Time Codes: 02:40 - Shrewsbury Town with Gareth Ainsworth 07:00 - Derby County 22:30 - Steven Schumacher in at Bolton Wanderers 24:00 - Mike Dodds in at Wycombe Wanderers 29:50 - Mike Williamson out at Carlisle United 36:00 - Transfer Window Report Cards 41:50 - National League's 3Up Campaign 48:30 - FA Cup 4th Round Weekend Preview 50:50 - Fantasy EFL 51:35 - 72Plus/72MinusBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week:Wednesday 5th February LEAGUE CUP: Newcastle v Arsenal 2000 KO - 5 Live WOMENS LEAGUE CUP: Chelsea v West Ham 1900 KO - 5 Sports ExtraThursday 6th February LEAGUE CUP: Liverpool v Spurs 2000 KO - 5 Live WOMENS LEAGUE CUP: Arsenal v Manchester City 1900 KO - 5 Sports ExtraFriday 7th February FA CUP: Manchester United v Leicester 2000 KO - 5 LiveSaturday 8th February FA CUP: Leyton Orient v Manchester City 1215 KO - 5 Live FA CUP: Leeds v Millwall 1215 KO - 5 Sports Extra FA CUP: Wigan v Fulham 1500 KO - 5 Live FA CUP: Everton v Bournemouth 1500 KO - BBC Sport Website & App FA CUP: Birmingham v Newcastle 1745 KO - 5 Sports Extra (Moves to 5 Live after England v France in the Six Nations) FA CUP: Brighton v Chelsea 2000 KO - 5 LiveSunday 9th February FA CUP: Blackburn v Wolves 1230 KO - 5 Live FA CUP: Aston Villa v Spurs 1735 KO - 5 LiveMonday 10th February FA CUP: Doncaster Rovers v Crystal Palace 1945 KO - 5 LiveTuesday 11th February FA CUP: Exeter City v Nottingham Forest 2000 KO - 5 Sports Extra

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. On the Football Daily, 72 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul and Joby McEnough. Hello and welcome to 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Live Sport. Great to be alongside you as ever as we journey across the EFL once again. It is bonjour, good afternoon, and it's actually good morning to Joby McEnough, my right arm. Where have you been this week? Travel up north? Yeah, I've been on my travels actually up to Middlesbrough, and it's one of those journeys that you don't know how long it is until you're in the car.

You've been in there for two hours, then you look at the nav and you go, I've still got two hours to go straight up the A1. Absolute mission. Kind of reminded me why I didn't actually play up north. I didn't really fancy venturing too far past Watford. But I've got to say, well worth the journey. What a cracking game. Two teams just absolutely going for it, really.

And a brilliant atmosphere as well up there. So much so, and they say that when the crowd's rocking and jumping, we literally felt it in our studio. We were just above the Sunderland fans. And pretty much throughout the whole game, you got a sort of little mellow vibration in terms of noise and people on their feet. When the goals went in, it felt as if we were about to fall down.

I mean, this place was shaking and we were sort of like just making sure health and safety, everything's cool. And actually we made it through absolutely fine. But brilliant, brilliant atmosphere. Great game and really enjoyed it. So well worth the nine hour round trip. What did health and safety say? Just said it's just the Sun and the fans are mental.

We don't normally get this much of an impact, but they really had a good time and was tested thoroughly, but it passed all the checks and we all got home safely. One man that I would certainly let look after my own health and safety is Gareth Ames with the Shrewsbury manager. Gaz, you're tightening up that defence, are you, pal?

Oh, we're getting there, Aaron. We're getting there, yeah. Good to speak to you both. But yeah, it's been 13 I think 13 games now I've had and after working them out

after sort of two or three games we've really you know we have really showed up that defence now and conceding very few

which is great Jamal Blackman coming in has made a big change you know at the back there he's a fantastic keeper for me

but every time we seem to get a win or everyone else wins around us it's that that at the moment Aaron so we cannot we've we've done well we've done well but everyone else has done well around us there's going to be some break at some stage and all there is so we've just got to be in the mix because I believe we've still got enough to stay up how are things down at the

meadow because look we we talked to you when you got the job and there's a lot of chat about being able to bring players in in January the lack of money obviously we know Roland Witchley's trying to get a deal done to to sell the club you were able to bring in some players Verdane Oliver's come in plenty of experience there obviously you brought Jamal Blackman in and and another one of your formerly trusted lieutenants in Dom Gape has come in to the midfield Yeah, what he hasn't done for me you can't write

down because he's done everything, he's done a lot he came for us in League 2 a real general like you Sarah so what he gives you off the pitch is just as much as what he gives you on the pitch and Job who's been in dressing rooms will know how important these players are. You know, they're not just,

they're not just, you know, you sign him and he goes, oh, he's been at East Leeds. And I'm saying, yeah, okay. He's getting his fitness back. He had a couple of big injuries, but it's not just what he gives you on the pitch. He will galvanise those troops.

He will be my voice in that dressing room. And there'll be no doubt in the dressing room about how we're going to play, what we're going to do, how organised we're going to be. And those players are do how organized we're going to be and those players are vital and we didn't have enough when i when i went in so gapes won and a couple of boys from non-league as well ricardo dinanga from telford absolute flying machine like the uh the guest with us in the studio used to be on the wing don't know how quick you are now jobby but um but you definitely used to be a... Not as quick as him anymore, I'll tell you that much.

And Callum Stewart, who banged a heck of a lot of goals in at Leamington over the years. And if you can do anything like Colby Bishop has done, you know, another ex-Leamington player

coming into the league, then he'll do well as well. So yeah, happy with the window of it. Dan, like you say, plenty of experience. Wanted another, not going to hide that.

I wanted another and somebody chose another club over us at about 20 past nine on deadline day oh i got the phone call and it was not nice you think it was all done guys oh job honestly you talk to people and you know they they and i understand you know they want to keep their options open, but they're saying, yep, really happy, yep, feel like I can get in this fight, feel like I want to.

And then at the last minute, they went to another club. Was it over money? No, it wasn't over money, Aaron. It wasn't over money. I don't want to tell the club, tell the player. I'm not saying anything of who it was,

what club it was or anything, but I believe that we're just, it's tough just off bottom of the league and Joby's just talked about a nine-hour round trip. Shrewsbury's location-wise is tough, it's tough to attract players to, you know, it's 40 minutes past Birmingham, it's a lifestyle change. When you come and you sign, you commit to that place, I tell you. It's like, I always, when I was at Wickham, I always thought being near London was a really good pull for me. You know, when near London, we're 10 miles outside the capital. It's tough. Paces like Grimsby or Exeter or Morecambe or Shrewsbury,

these are life changes. These are clubs where you go, right, we're going there. We have to commit to there. You know, those clubs can obviously afford to, you know, put the cheese down to attract players, but we, we were almost there. One more would have been great,

but do you know what? I'm going to do it with what I've got. And, and I'm really happy with what I've got. I know why I ask about the money, by the way, is because I know a player that chose another club's deadly rival over 200 quid a week,

which I think is. Was it in League Two? Potentially. Name him, name him, name amazing. Was it in League 2? Potentially. Name him, name him, name him. on our transfer section.

No, no, not in this window, not in this window, in another window.

But do you know what I love about deadline day is it's become the universal day of football clubs coming

together and eating takeaways. I know that QPR, it was pizza at Blackburn Rovers. Yes, I spoke to their head of media, Rob. Top guy, he said that they'd ordered all the pizza in

and Emmanuel Dennis walks through the door and said they had to eat it cold. Other clubs going for curries. What was the takeaway of choice at Shrewsbury? I'm going to say, do you reckon that Domino's or other pizza delivery companies are available? Get on it. Do you know what?

Do you think their takings go up on deadline day? Well, they should sponsor deadline day. What a great idea. I mean, we've just spawned that now. There's some rogue ones where the managers know they're not going to get anything done and they just go for a curry and have a leisurely curry,

a couple of beers, relax. Anyway, let's start this week with Derby County. After seven straight league defeats, their worst since the 2008 famed Premier League season, boss Paul Warne spoke to BBC Radio Derby on Saturday after defeat to Sheffield United about whether he has assurances from the board with regards to his future.

Well, I mean, they could say anything they like respectfully. However, they can change their mind at any time. And that's what football management is. You obviously have to be thick-skinned. It isn't all roses and champagne. I understand that. And I also understand that people make decisions. I mean, that's as simple as that.

I personally think that my relationship with the board is really good, right? However, if I lost 15 games or lost 10 games or something, I'm not trying to put a number on it so everyone gets excited, but I just mean that I'm an intelligent guy.

You can say a lot of things about me, but I'm an intelligent guy and if you lose consistently, people will obviously look at your role. But I'm also intelligent enough to think that we are getting the most out of this group

we possibly can, we are down to bare bones I know that, we do need fresh faces we do need people back and I do see and I thanked the lads when I went in, I do see a real effort from the dressing room so in that respect I think I'm getting the best I can out of this group and

what is to be is to be I can't worry about it I still have to have a life I still have to enjoy enjoy what I do but I'll turn up again next week and we'll pick up again

for the next game Let's bring in BBC Radio Derby commentator Ed Dawes Ed, one thing you'd always get from Paul Warne

is honesty he's a very forthright character but seven straight league defeats is quite the record that you don't want to have. Yeah, absolutely. I feel for him, to be fair, because it's really interesting because clearly Derby don't have the strength and depth, the quality at the moment in the championship. And once you get on that run I think as you guys know it's very difficult to break it because it becomes a mental issue the crowd gets on your back you

know we sound like we're being negative consistently because we're describing what's going on and talking about the ways that it can be changed. It's not a great look right now. You read that stat out at the top. It goes back to 87 when they last lost eight in a row under Arthur Cox, but they stuck with him and they survived in the old Division 1. Then it goes back to 1888, I think, if they don't pick up anything at Norwich this weekend. That was before Steve Bloomer,

so that's technically before football was started in Derby. But yeah, it's not a great time. And Norwich away, Oxford at home, Gary Rowett coming back to Pride Park, which is always fun. And then QPR away on Valentine's night. So heartbreak all around, potentially. I can't see how they're going to get out of this run right now because the past seven games have been the same game losing the same game playing the same way conceding the same goals week in week out and it's it's just it's a hard watch. Ed just in terms of

that you say about the type of games and conceding goals but I'd probably look at the other end of the pitch and goal scoring which has been a a real big problem for the team is that more to do with personnel I mean we speak about recruitment maybe in the summer you know Jerry Yates top scorer at the moment but other than that not loads going on certainly from forward areas so again is it personnel or is it style in terms of it seems as though you take away the set pieces if you can deal with them you know maybe crosses coming into the box there's not a lot else there in terms of an attacking threat from Derby County there isn't and I think this is the difference between playing in League One and Paul's philosophy of get it down the wings 100 mile an hour put the ball in the box

get somebody on the end of it which I know that Gareth's teams have come up against quite a lot over the years. They don't play through midfield. And, you know, we've seen so many teams come to Derby, sit just inside their half, keep possession at the back, recycle possession when they can't get down the right, they'll go down the left or somebody will trigger in the middle and sort of pick a perfect pass. Derby are quite formulaic at the moment. And it hurts to say this kind of stuff, because I've been following the club in a work capacity for 16 years and all my life as a fan.

And, you know, the wingers are letting them down. Gerry Yates is not the tallest. So if you're playing that way, they've got a tall striker now, Lars-Jürgen Salversen, who hopefully can get on the end of these crosses that come into the box. They do create chances, but they just don't score goals, and that is the problem. At the start of the season, they'd score a goal,

they wouldn't get the second, and then they'd be picked off and either draw late on or lose late on. It is a problem, but he has been backed in the transfer window, not as much as he was hoping, I'm sure. I'm sure he feels a little bit let down by what was delivered to him. But he does have the big Norwegian at the front, the big Norwegian at the back. He has Matt Clarke back, who everyone knows about, who's a solid drag-and-drop defender to replace Aaron Cashin.

And then Harrison Armstrong in midfield from Everton on deadline day, who's got... Everyone talks very highly about him. This step up into men's football is going to be interesting and there's quite a lot on him. I can feel what he's going through. I really can because I was at QPR and you get in this sort of whirlwind of

you don't know how to get out of it. I'm really glad the club have backed him because I know Warnie, we've managed against him a lot of times and he is a good guy. But you can feel in his interviews now that he's getting frustrated. He's getting to that stage where he's going, well, you know, I'm not in charge anymore. They can do what they want to do. I'm really glad you've mentioned the signings because I believe that he has to have a chance now. He's got to be given a chance with these signings. Blackett Taylor being out

injured, that was one of his little sparks that got through at times. Colin's obviously going out because he's passed it. It is that. It's now this next dynamic, this next new breed of derby players, especially going forward, like Joby says. I think

they've been quite okay at the back and Paul is organised, you know, but they've got to start now hurting teams at the other side. And I really feel for him. I can feel, you know, it's not really a question to you. It's just a statement. I can feel how he must be feeling because it's a lonely place when it's like that. You know, it really is. And I'm just hoping, like you say, that the Norwegians come in.

Harrison, who all the talk is about, you know it really is and i'm just hoping like you say that the the norwegians going harrison who all the talk is about you know about creation can they do this before because being at the bottom of the league it's not easy to attract players either because people look at me i'll be going i'm not going there you know yeah they don't look great they don't play they don't look like they play great but at the start of the season it was a different story people were right behind him thinking you know this is this is not bad you know so it's only a step away um hopefully he can turn it around the transfer window is interesting because on the 14th they were 14th on boxing day when they beat uh west brom at pride park and they were excellent um so you're looking at fishing in a different pool for the transfer

window then because you're mid-table or more or less and and players who aren't decided on where they're going in January might think yeah okay I'll have a crack at that but because they've gone on that run they've just slipped into the bottom three and maybe agents players clubs will have second thoughts about it the question I want to ask you Gareth is because your success with Wickham when you got into the championship how did you change your style of management and the way that you approach games? Because it's a completely different level. Did you have to find something new within yourself? It's almost a different sport. When you look at it, the game is unbelievable at Championship. That gap, I think we've talked about it on here before with know, the jump from League One to the Championship is enormous.

It's huge. I mean, champs are ridiculous. Grand Canyon. But the Championship now is becoming that second Premier League. And I have to laugh because after seven games, my first seven games in the Championship, you know what we had? Seven defeats. And they stuck with me. I changed formation. So I went from a back four to a back five and crazily modelled something on Conte. When Conte came into Chelsea, he changed. And I'm not saying I'm anything like Conte,

but I changed just to get this 3-4-3 system. And it really worked. And the boys at Jobby will back me up here, you know, when you're in a bad place, if the manager comes in with something totally new, a new formation

that everyone can grab hold of and go, it really worked for me and it was sort of, it wasn't just trying to tinker with the system I was playing, I did a wholesale change, a massive change

and it really worked and we went down by one point, actually, actually by, you lot survived, didn't you, on that day, that final day with Rooney in charge. But that almost got us to survive that change. It was a whole change.

It was right, boys. Okay, I might've got this wrong here. We've gone totally something new. Bang, grab hold of this. And I think as a manager, sometimes you get to that stage, you go, right, I've got to rip up the whole book now and go here.

And it's tough sometimes. Conte did it and did brilliant with it. So there's no reason that managers at a lower level can't do it. I really hope that Paul finds something. Yeah, Paul's desperate to prove to everybody that he is not a one-trick pony and that he can manage in the Championship and that he can keep a team in the Championship with his record.

And as you say, he's a top guy and, you know, he's personable. And right now it's a very different Paul Warne. And it hurts him, but it hurts the fans as well. And, you know, it wasn't a pleasant atmosphere at the last home game against Sheffield United. A minority of the fans made their point from the south stand and everybody heard it. And, you know, there was no escaping that so i really hope for him as an individual and for the club that they can turn this around and not get stuck because norwich as i mentioned the games coming up norwich away oxford at home and qpr away they are tough games

even wherever you are whether you're in a seven gamegame losing streak or not. So it's going to be an interesting watch over the next few weeks, I guess. The away form, though, is woeful. Awful. One win at Coventry, where they played okay, actually. Got a lucky deflection to score the second goal, but it was the second goal, and they defended it out. And it was a surprise because they don't tend to win at Coventry ever, any team that goes there with the Derby badge on their shirt. But that's another thing.

If you want to survive in the Championship, you've got to start picking up points away from home. You've got to be harder to beat home and away, but especially away. And I think if you take Leeds out of it, who are, as you say, it's like a second Premier League at times with those teams. Leeds are a different kettle of fish,

but you've got to go to these teams compete and be hard to beat that is exactly what any new manager going into any job at a crisis point would do and this is a crisis point and paul warne's been backed by the the owners and in the transfer window so they've got to come up with some formula that that stops leaking goals and stops losing games i just look at that table and I just think Derby can't keep relying on other people being rubbish around them and you look at Luton, they've

gone, they've recruited, well a whole city have recruited exceptionally well Stoke have brought in a goal scorer in Ali Al-Hamidi, there's question marks around Cardiff, yes and Plymouth but again Plymouth picking up a win under Miro Muslic. You can't rely on someone else to do your job for you.

No, absolutely. There are two things naming those teams and what they've spent the transfer window. Firstly, Derby had money in this window, but not as much as those other teams. Clearly, we've talked at length about where Derby have come from in the last few years. But yeah, the fans think that or say that there are always going to be three teams worse than Derby. But before you know it, you might get caught out. And the teams you mentioned there, I think the majority of them have all changed their manager and had the bounce and gone a different way.

And Derby have decided not to do that currently. And you have to back that decision. It is scary. It's really scary because they don't have the money at the moment to compete and David Klaus, who's the reluctant chairman and owner, he is looking for investment, but it's got to be the right people

because he doesn't want to just hand over to, well, we've all learned the lessons of the past, haven't we? He doesn't want to hand over to somebody who doesn't have the same philosophy that he has for the football club going forward. So that might take time. If they can get through this tricky patch and stay up and get to the summer, who knows what might happen. But yeah, the surrounding clubs, Aaron, as you say, they have strengthened. They have changed their manager.

They have had an influx of points through that, and you just hope that Derby can get that change in results and influx of points and pick up some points. Well, it's picking up points. That's all I ever think about is picking up points. That's the name of the game. Ed, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

Ed Dawes, BBC Radio Derby with us on five live 72 plus how would you rate their transfer window joe b or well i think losing cash in first and foremost is a big blow i know they've gone to try and make that right with obviously sign-ins and you know it's difficult because you get you know matt clark in fair enough like you know what he's going to bring to the table and then you've got a couple of players that you've brought in from Viking that are unknowns. And I think that's a difficult thing at this stage of the season. And for me, January is about the here and now.

It's about who's going to come in, who's going to have an immediate impact because you don't have time to come in and bed in and get to understand the manager. So in order to do that, you need players that have been at the level and they've competed at the level. And I look at those two and think, yeah, they've spent money, but what are in order to do that you need players that have been at the level and they've competed at the level and I look at those two and think yeah they've spent money but what are they going to do we just don't know and that's not what I would want as a manager at this stage of the season so listen I think like Gaz has said it just seems like it needs a an injection of something new something fresh just to shake things up a little bit. I think as a player, you do get to the point

of you doing the same things every week and you're not getting the results. And all of a sudden, you know, before you know it, you're right down there and you can't change that momentum. I think what they have got still is a little bit of time left, but they need to get that shift very, very quickly.

On the Football Daily, 72 Plus, the ESL podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Commentator's View on the Football Daily. I'm Alistair Bruce Ball. I'm John Murray. And I'm Ian Dennis. And Friday's On the Football Daily means one thing. It's time for the Commentator's View episode.

Join us every Friday as we look ahead to the weekend's football action with a few untold stories along the way. A wasp flew into my mouth while I was talking and I panicked. The Commentators View. Only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily, 72 plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul and Joby McEnough. A few manageral ins and outs this week.

Let's get through them, starting with the ins. Stephen Schumacher, our mate Shuey, in through the door at Bolton as Ian Everett's successor. Fans very happy. Great move for him, Joby. Yeah, like it. And again, we can take a little bit of credit, a bit more of an assist. We need to start getting an agent fee I think for all these managers getting

jobs after they come on with us but yeah really nice fit I think style of football big club you know experience of getting out of the league obviously previously with Plymouth so I think it ticks all the right boxes I know it's one that he's super excited for and can see that one going well hopefully for him and for you Gareth I mean look it's a big job isn't it in League One Bolton Wanderers there's expectation from the fans but Shuey knows what he's doing in that division. Absolutely you know and it was interesting we've got them actually in a couple of weeks so I don't want to give too much away but I looked at his first formation and he went five at the back just like he he was at Plymouth, you know, he's, he's gone in and gone,

this is me. This is what I do. Listen, he's got some fantastic players in that football club. They, I don't want to put pressure on him, but maybe I need to put a bit of pressure on him to get a result. He's, he's got to get that team up and around the playoffs without a doubt, because the expectation of that club is huge. They've spent a lot of money. I can't say they haven't. You know,

I remember Chris Farino from Wickham having bundles thrown at him to go to all these clubs and Bolton got him. They compete with Wrexham and people like that.

You know, they've got to be up there and in and around it and I like Shuri. I think Shuri's a good guy and he absolutely did nothing wrong at Stoke and great to see him back in.

Gareth, I'll stick with you. We need to talk about your old club, Wickham Wanderers. Mike Dodds in from Sunderland, but not as manager, as head coach. And it's a complete shift now from the new owners. The club's almost unrecognisable from when you were there. Yeah, and it does feel, Aaron, a little bit like out with the old, in with the new. It really does. It hurts in a way because we built so much with nothing

for that club to be a phenomenal competitor with absolutely nothing. But then on the flip side, I'm really happy because I had good success at a club now that looks like it's going to go on to tremendous things. Mike obviously knows Dan Rice, who's the acting chairman, CEO, director of football, all three in one really there. i bethau hynod o fawr. Mae Mike yn gwybod o Dan Rice, y Prif Weithredwr Cynhyrchu, Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol o Ffotbol, mae'n gweithio gyda'i holl ddau. Mae'n gwybod ei fod o Birmingham, felly mae dod yn y cyfarwyddwr cyhoeddus yn

ymddangos y neges y byddai'n gysylltiedig. Byddai'n y model newydd y byddwn yn ei weld yn ffotbol. Mae'r cyfarwyddwr cyhoeddus a'r cyfarwyddwr cyhoeddus yn gweithio'n gyffredinol. Bydd yn ymwneud â'r tîm a'r tîm ond. model we're seeing in football. I had coaches, directors of football really working together hard. He's going to be in charge of the team and the team only. I think that there's all sorts of people being employed at Wickham now and it looks like everyone's running a department. It's expanding to a huge, huge football club and a decent window. I think getting Caleb Taylor back is for me one of the signings of League One. I think he's a fantastic centre-halfhalf from West Brom I believe he's going to play in the Premier League so getting him back I think was massive and keeping all the Richard Coney it hurt me Joby when I saw they turned down

six million reportedly I was like six million and I worked all them years with with what I had we spoke about that last week guys we were like a couple of years ago if you just said Luton Town would be offering six million quid to Wickham and Wickham turned it down, you'd be like, what is going on with the world, mate? I was going to say, Gaz, you would have, I mean, you would have dreamt or never dreamt of a window where you're bringing 12 players in. Oh, Aaron, honestly, I'm so, so,

as I say, it's bittersweet for me. It's sweet because it's Wickham. I love Wickham. It's fantastic. But it's also,weet for me. It's sweet because it's Wickham. I love Wickham. It's fantastic. But it's also, wow, we went 10 years building up just to compete on spirit and with nothing and everything. And it seems to, in a year, it's gone, right, we're now this massive competitor with all this money.

It's brilliant to see. It really is. I hope they look after the players, your Jack Grimmers, your David Wheelers, your Sam Vokes, you know, your Gareth McCleary's who were there through the tough times. You know,

I hope they get to see a part of the success that they're undoubtedly going to have. Yes, it's fantastic to see what they've done. Can I say something?

All these players, yeah. Real talk, Gareth, would you have enjoyed it there? Would you have enjoyed it with the money? Because I think part

of the challenge for you was little old Wickickham us versus the world siege mentality bringing in goalkeepers on seven day loans and other players on three day like you know how used to you were the ultimate wheeler dealer you were the new cut of dell boy of harry red that you you were able to go and do things because you had contacts but it must have been a lot more rewarding and fulfilling yeah Aaron honestly um and Joby will understand this when I went to QPR and and it didn't quite work out the way I wanted it to you know we stayed up in the first year which was massive success but in the second year I realized and you know what I probably realized what I am.

And that's really important as a football manager. I'm never going to be this free-flowing, unbelievable, best transfers on stats and getting fantastic football. I think I am what you just said. I think I'm that guy who goes in and makes a team who's maybe struggling, who haven't got a lot of resources. I'll pull it all together and go, you know what? We can achieve and we can do it this way.

And I don't care what underdog mentality. I am really happy where I am as a manager being that guy. And I think that's a nice thing to be able to say rather than going, I want to be that, I need to be that. I'm really happy who I am. So I don't know if it would have worked now at wickham with me i know what i am and i love what i am and i've had success with what i am and i'm proud joey last one on wickham goes to you is this a huge risk

from their senior management team led by dan rice because Mike Dodds with the greatest respect he may be a phenomenal coach we've seen loads of phenomenal coaches pass through the EFL we're going to talk about one in a moment but he's been given a job having had no previous permanent managerial experience and Wickham Wanderers are fighting at the right end of the table for promotion through the sunroof rather than the trap door what if this all falls apart it is a gamble in that sense i think what they are making clear and again for me to do it mid-season and listen the manager leaving has obviously forced their hand but i think in terms of a model they're being very clear about what they want to do and they want someone to come in and work on the grass you know obviously look after the players that

they're bringing in obviously sort out the team for for the weekend and go and win matches but he's going to have no massive say over recruitment and that's a big change at the football club you know so I think they're backing him to come in and do his job as a coach but there is a big difference man coaching and management are two different things and I just feel at times we've kind of gone so far down the coaching route but actually especially at this stage of the season how do you keep that little edge how do you get over the line on a Tuesday night away somewhere how do you deal with that expectation that pressure that isn't just what you're doing on the training pitch that is dealing with players

from that perspective I do think it is a risk but I think they're being very clear on what they want to be moving forward whether it pays off or not we'll have to see. Speaking of coaches let's talk about Carlisle who have sacked Mike Williamson with the club five points above the lead to relegation zone and this one absolutely baffles me but also kind of doesn't Joby because it felt like everything about it was downbeat. You'd listen to his interviews and I wouldn't get much sense out of them. But then the club go and bring in 11 new players in January. How do you calculate this?

Well, you don't. And I think for me, this is just another indication of a club that's lost all sense of direction. Again, trying to be a different type of club trying to come up with this model you know an idealistic way of playing football and to go and get Mike Williamson I think anyone who's followed his career so far knows how he wants to play football is that conducive to a relegation battle no definitely not at the bottom of the league it isn't you need players who are going to go in, dig in, scrap. And clearly they didn't do that.

And they've compounded it by actually going to make that many signings that I'm assuming he would have had some input into. He might not make the final decisions, but again, align with the way that he wants to play. And then a few days later, go, right, actually, now you're not the man to go in. I just think the confusion that must be running through the players and obviously fans are disgruntled at the moment is absolutely huge. And we said last week, didn't we, when we saw the number of transfers, that it was a massive gamble. And now it looks like it's just a mess at that football club.

And I don't know where they go now. They are banging trouble. Tom Piotik has put his money where his mouth is, Gareth, in terms of the ownership there. They have gone and tried to recruit. But it's a mammoth task down that end of the Football League for anyone who goes in. John Brady is the favourite. How do you make good of that squad?

And how do you take it on if you go in when you've got someone else's players just sat there, having arrived, planning to play a certain brand of football or do you have to recruit style based i always sort of go style or or results driven where where do you go with the appointment on this one so for me just gotta reiterate what joey said there it's it's a mess at the moment how can you do it on the last day of the transfer window after you've allowed all those transfers in? That for me is baffling and it seems like a knee-jerk reaction from a 5-1 defeat. That's what it felt like to me. Now, how you rectify this, Aaron, all I can say is how I

would rectify it. You go in and you have to suss out what those players are good at. Now, it's obvious what you've just said. They can't now play total football and get out of this. You can't do that at the bottom of the league. Confidence shot. You have to go in as a new manager and go, right, and very quickly, by the way, what are these boys good at? How do I set these boys up?

When you're saying style or people, you've got to get in there and you've got to work your socks off as a new manager to go. You can't just put your imprint on them because they might not be able to do it. You've got to work out, how do I get the best out of this group? How do I finish one point above that line? And then I can start building long-term plans.

And that's, I think, what I do well. I go in there and I suss out things really quickly in relegation battles and go, right, I know what this club needs and I'll do it and we'll get there. They need somebody in John Brady, fantastic coach, really experienced. But I do know that he left Northampton because, you know, it was a lot for him. He was getting at him, you know, where they were as well.

So I don't know whether John would take it. It'd be a great coup for Carl if they could get him but let's see what it is but somebody's got to go down and sort that lot out because they have let

manager after manager down and with all these new signings what are they good at now what type of

team are they they need to sort that out just on Mike Williamson and I'll ask you this Joby rather than you Gareth

because obviously you're part of the managerial union and Joby well I mean he was turfed out of it a long time ago where does Mike Williamson go now?

Because it didn't end well for him at MK. After taking a beating at Plough Lane, he was on the ropes, and I think Milton Keynes got very, very, very lucky that Carlisle came and paid a fee for him. But forget that. Go back to the playoffs. Conceding eight in the playoffs.

It's a record. It's an utter embarrassment. And then going to Carlisle and just watching his team play where do you go now as a manager as a head coach because once upon a time you were the next up and coming thing at gate said he was the man everyone was after and inside a year to 18 months it's all gone pete tong it's a rebuild for him in terms of his stock certainly is at a very very low point now and I think it's a bit of a cautionary tale I think for young coaches coming through. You need time, I think you need to find your own identity and your own way of playing. I'm not for

a moment sitting here saying Mike Williams should abandon his principles and what he wants to do but he has to find an environment that is going to enable him to play that way because clearly he's very very committed to that style and I think when you jump too quickly at times you're into situations where results are the most important thing not style not developing players not cultivating a philosophy that maybe can stick with you for the rest of your career and ultimately if you don't get those results you're going to be out of a job whatever way you play so I think for him you know his stock will still be high certainly lower down the pyramid so I think there will be opportunities for him but it's got to be one now that he looks at I think with a little bit more long-term sort of mindset and giving himself an opportunity to build again and just build his own confidence

because that's something again as a player I had it you know coach only briefly and manage only briefly but you'd feel that as a manager as well Gareth I'm sure you you know you question yourself if things aren't going well you know am I good enough you know am I doing the right things and I think he'll take stock of that I'm sure he'll learn a lot he jumped back in quick which again when you're in between jobs if he had a chance to sort of take stock and where'd I go wrong what do I need to do better so maybe a bit of time away between now and the end of the season you know give himself a chance to come back in pre-season maybe somewhere really implement the way he wants to play and then build again for him best of luck to Mike Williamson and to Carlisle United let's touch on the transfer window once. I want to know from each league who's getting an A and who's getting an E.

Let's have your transfer window report cards. Joby, let's go for you in the championship. Who has had the window of all windows and who's had an absolute mare? Oh, this is a tough one. I'll go for Sheffield United again. I think, you know, Tom Cannon, Brereton Diaz, Chowdhury, Harry Clarke. I think they're pretty much self-explanatory for a team that's pushing to try and get in that second place. Luton at the complete opposite end of the table also I think they've had a really strong window Isaiah Jones,

Asgard, Josh Bowler, got a couple of players in defensively Eric Peters and Cal Naismith back to the football club and so I'd say probably those two would be my two A stars. Who gets two A stars? I mean, there's an A and E. Sorry, mate. Both have been very good. Can I throw some more in as well? It's difficult to say he's had a bad window.

I'm going to add one to this, right? And it's going to be a massive curveball here. Leeds United have signed nobody because they don't need anybody. And I think that you've got to give credit to Daniel Farker for what a fantastic job he did in the summer because they're not scrambling around. They didn't get involved in

running after anybody. They didn't need to. They've got the best squad anyway. They've got two players for every position that start most games for everyone else. Daniel, because he's been in the game so long, didn't get carried away with going, everyone else is signing, so I better sign. And I'll add another team to you. I think Middlesbrough have had a decent window.

I think with Whittaker coming in, Edmondson, Giles, Inacho, Eiling Jr., I think they have definitely had a decent window and I think you'll see them climb the table. I think that Middlesbrough could be right up there again in these playoff shots at the end of the season. Who's had a bad window? I'm going to go for Watford. Absol absolute shambles at the moment really pressure on Tom Cleverley which is

ridiculous based on what he's done and then this just compounds that sort of no real backing they've got no options now in in forward areas they sent Jebison back um obviously Bayo is now suspended they've got a lad i think they moved a couple between their clubs a bank was coming from Udinese but we've seen that before from Watford and just you know they've lost Ken Semmer and Porteous again two players who just in terms of that squad and you know good characters as well so I think they've had a real poor one and I think it just sums up everything that's going wrong at that football club at the moment. Gareth, let's drop into League One. Who gets your grade A rating? Well, as I said earlier, I think Wickham,

you've got to look at the amount of signings they've got. It can be a difficult one when you bring too many players in. When I said the boys like McCleary, the boys like Kone, the boys like Onyedema have done it and they're in second place. So why do you need to change? I do believe that they've strengthened with getting Caleb Taylor back. i think he's a star signing and i'll stick by that and the next one for me rexham have obviously made a statement of an intent sam smith two million pounds rodriguez reportedly on high double figure wages in the uh in league one you know and i think that they're

gonna have a good one i'll take you i'll take your e-grade and I think that they're going to have a good one. I'll take your E grade and I'll give it to Reading and I'll say that they've had an absolute stinker of a window. Getting Tyler Binden back? No, no, no. Listen, it's damage limitations. I think it could have been worse, Aaron.

I've got to say, speaking to a few of the boys down there, there was real concerns for one or two others, but the fact they've managed to say, speaking to a few of the boys down there, there was real concerns for one or two others. But the fact they've managed to just hold on to one or two. But I'm with you, man. It's a tough window. Do you know your old club, Joby? Orient.

Orient, that was going to be my good one. Markande. And again, getting them done early, already coming in, having an impact. Abdoulaye as well. Randall Williams is a brilliant signing for the football club into league two money chucked about as well in that division do you know i listened to euro leagues last night isn't it amazing la liga only two million or two and a half million euros was

spent and you look at the money being thrown around in league one in league two but in in league two joe b your your best window who's had an excellent window? I'm going to go for MK Dons actually Danilo Orsi linking back up with Scott Lindsay I think is a good signing and Dan Crowley another one that was a real eyebrow raiser for me earlier on in the window I think he's one of the

top top players you know what he did at Notts County was fantastic so I think they've signed very very well and for my bad we spoke about carlisle they just have to be in there for buying all those players or getting all those players in and then sacking the manager and then tramir as well in terms of the position they're in and they've only managed to get a few young loans in um probably needed a little bit more given the situation they

find themselves in milton keynes aka crawley mark too not sure marcus brown though too badly for him at they find themselves in. Milton Keynes, aka Crawley Mark 2. Not sure. Marcus Brown, though. It didn't do too badly for him at Crawley, did it? Marcus Brown, what a sign in. On his day,

when he's fit, best player in the division. I saw him the other day. Go on, who's your A grade for League 2? Go on. You've got Wimbledon in there.

I think Wimbledon have a great window and do you know why? Because Craig Cope got the business done early doors. They knew they were losing Romain Sawyers. They had Marcus in training.

He was fantastic. And he's hopefully going to have the same impact that Ronan Curtis had last year. Chesterfield, Walsall, both have done well in the window. Looking at the signings, Tramier just seemed to be in a real tough place at the moment. And again, those teams at the bottom of the division, Carlisle have signed loads.

Let's see what that is. Because like I say, being at the top or being at the bottom, if you have this mad January, it doesn't always work. It does not always work. I'll say that Shrewsbury Town, out of all the 92 clubs in the league, have had probably the best we've known. And yeah, when Watch for Day and Oliver go and score loads of goals, added to John Marcus and George Lloyd up front.

Very quickly before we end, the National League have launched a new campaign called 3UP, aiming to increase the number of teams promoted from two to three. National League general manager Mark Ives has been speaking about why it is so important. There's a few things. You can look at the economic benefits the benefits to our communities in which we serve but if you look at it purely as a football person

and you examine the pyramid that we have and what we would argue is in this country across the board from the very bottom of the pyramid to the top, we've got a pyramid of promotion and relegation that is the envy of countries worldwide. I don't know anywhere else where you can go from the very bottom of the pyramid to the top purely on sporting merit, except from the jump between the National League and the EFL,

where there's a blockage, where we're only getting two up and two down from the EFL. And we think that is simply unfair. And I would like to think that the vast majority of objective fans looking at it objectively would also see the unfairness of that. And we're wanting to have the EFL put football first and promote a fairer system. Mark Ives there, National League General Manager,

talking to us about why it is so important for this new three-up campaign to potentially start gaining some traction. Joby, you got promoted with Leighton O with late number from the National League in 2018-19. That's great. But my question to you is, why would EFL clubs vote for another team to leave via the trapdoor? Well, that's going to be the big question, isn't it? I think I'd look at it with two hats on.

One who, as you say, has played in the National League for a couple of years and I'll start on their perspective and I can certainly see why they want and even in terms of the promotion system I think what we've seen years gone by with the one automatic but we've seen some really close races between one and two but obviously if you then finish second you can be miles ahead of where that next place or the bottom team seventh place team is going to be and I think there's a fairness argument there if you have a whole season where you're up there and you've competed and you've put the points on the board to have two automatic and then a playoff system which I'm assuming they would go to which would mirror the EFL so I think from that perspective I get it and I think it's a fair one definitely from the EFL's perspective if I was a

team near the bottom end of that table you know that extra place opens up all of a sudden you know that drop from League Two to the National League's a huge one when you look at you know income revenue generated all that sort of stuff and just the prestige of being in the EFL so I certainly wouldn't expect them to be queuing up to vote for it put it that way in terms of the EFL so I certainly wouldn't expect them to be queuing up to vote for it put it that way in terms of the EFL but I certainly get the merits from the National League side. Gareth you finished 22nd with Wickham Wanderers after that famous day at Torquay um it's like turkeys voting for Christmas if EFL clubs managers go for it I just I cannot see this going ahead purely because of, unless the decision's taken out of the hands of the 72 members

and the 72 shareholders of the Football League. Yeah, we'd have been down if obviously this comes in, we'd have been down that season and obviously we're not going to vote for it. Who in the right mind in the EFL would vote for, you know, three down, three up? It'd be interesting to go lower

than the national league and see what the promotion system is coming up because i know it it gets very complicated with all the leagues that sort of filter out and and it's got to be getting consistent that there's there's opportunities for everyone to get promoted if they want three in the national league into the league two then it has to filter down and more teams should be getting promoted but that national league believe me, very strong. And often the teams that do come up,

they compete well. And I think that's a big argument point for them saying, look at your Ekens, look at your Chesterfields, look at your Stockports. They've all kicked off, but it could kill some really, really big league teams, your Oldhams, your Torquays. They've really

found it difficult getting back in now the argument that the national league are putting forward gareth is that teams going up are always in a stronger position than teams on their way down and that kind of makes plenty of sense and is kind of obvious as well isn't it you're going to be going up doors should we not look after our teams we keep going on about the teams that are struggling we should look after our pyramid better

if a team just can't keep up financially for no other reason than the other teams have got billionaires coming in and millionaires it's not fair

that they just sink out of the league out of obscurity it then becomes all about money Wrexham have only done that because of the money

they've had and of course they're competing well, but they've had billionaire owners in, and it's not fair. I don't think that it should just be about that. And I'm speaking as an advocate from a club with a local businessman who's put his money in, and he just can't compete with Wrexham because we're not bringing American billionaires in. So my argument would be, yes, these teams have done well,

but have a look at the money that they've had invested in them as well you know we've lost the essence of football a little bit and I think there's a lot more thought got to go into this than just saying yes or no because non-league teams

seem to do well in the league when they're in there All 72 clubs in the National League North and South have backed this and are calling for it to come into effect from next season so if the EFL are going to make a decision

they need to make it ASAP Joby Yeah which listen I'd be astounded if that was anything other than a no from the EFL again what I will say though just in terms of the National League saying just echo what Gareth said I think years gone by people looked at the National League or non-league football was exactly that you know semi-pro not very organized it could not be far from the truth, you know, semi-pro, not very organised. It could not be farther from the truth now. You know, the level now that goes into football, there'd only be a handful of clubs, you know,

in the National League that aren't even probably full-time, Aaron, you know, or not run like a proper day-to-day professional football club. And I think that, again, is their argument. You know, we feel that we're doing all the things that we should be doing at this level. So we should get an equal opportunity of getting our clubs into the football league and then go and compete I think does that then have a negative impact on the likes of I say Harrogate Town who again I played with against at national league level they've now gone up and you know it's a struggle

for them with their budget the size of club you know Bromley have gone up recently we saw it with Sutton United I think it's going to be tougher for those clubs for sure if another bigger club and there are big clubs down internationally get up with that funding and that resource let's push on and look ahead to a huge weekend of FA Cup fourth round action on the way this coming weekend with 11 matches live across five live and sports extra it starts at eight o'clock Friday night, Manchester United versus Leicester on 5 Live before Saturday's action kicks off with Manchester City heading to Richie Wellens' Leighton Orient

at 12.15. You'll also be able to hear Newcastle against Birmingham, Exeter versus Nottingham Forest, and Doncaster Rovers versus Crystal Palace on Monday night. What game are you looking forward to the most, Shobi? Well, you've said it already, haven't you? Orient Man City.

And again, this is just because it's more than just this game. I mean, I was there through some real dark times at that football club. Having gone when the club was really on the up, you know, trying to get themselves to a championship, having lost out in the playoff final, and then it went completely out of the way in the next three years, two relegations,

club almost going out of business and knowing what those owners have put into the football club what the fans have had to go through about the tragedy Justin Edinburgh passing away as well there's been so many obstacles and hurdles along the way but it just goes to show what can happen and what can be

achieved with good ownership and with everyone together at a football club and it's a reward for them you know and everyone to just go and really, really enjoy. I texted Nigel Travis the other day when the draw came out and said, who would have thought, you know, that day when we were sat in the office,

you know, a few years later, Orient against Man City in the FA Cup. It's a brilliant, brilliant story and one that I'm really looking forward to watching. It is the Gareth Ainsworth derby at Deepdale, Preston North End taking on Wickham Wanderers. But Gareth, will Wickham be playing their A team

or their B team? Because I think they've got two squads worth of players now. I think they'll both be good enough, won't they? I don't know which is the A and the B at the moment, but I'm really looking forward

to that game. You know, Preston obviously means a lot to me, my league debut and that. But Wickham, as I've said earlier, absolutely home. And hopefully,

Wickham can get through. I mean, the wonders of 2001 and Laurie Sanchez getting to the semi-final against Liverpool, you know, we always go back there and that's true football.

That's what, you know, hairs on your arms standing up moments. Hopefully Wickham can go and give a good account of themselves there and be a good game.

Keep across it all on Five Live Sport, Radio five sports extra and of course uh across the bbc sport website and app just a quick one on fantasy efl captain a step for you this week joe be 38 points good returns from aaronson sergeant bogan trafford as well yeah went with the old uh clean sheet absolute specialists and it has paid off again. And also there was this thing on the app with your captain that I had to use because I hadn't used it by now, so whoever gets the most points.

So, yeah, another steady week. How did you get on, mate? I forgot to change my team. Oh, that old Tresnato. Alfie May didn't play currently in this game week. It's Joby89. I have 25. Reminder that the code to join,

if you think you can do better than Joby, forget me, is 72EFLpod. 72EFLpod. That's almost all we've got time for this week. But before we go, of course, it's time for this. 72 Plus. 72 Minus. On the Football Daily. Yeah, this is Joby's special feature of the week although i'm

thinking of handing over the fantasy fl element of the show to you as well joe b considering you do it and i don't anyway you're not playing that still are you oh very good what do you got for us this week pal well my 72 plus is just an absolute piece of magic from the evergreen david mcgoldrick 37 years old still going stronger than ever it was one of these moments I was in the studio doing goal zone and the goal went in and you just have to say right everyone stop what you are doing and watch this he picks up the ball enters towards the 18 yard box and we've seen chips we've seen this is not even a chip it's like a stab dink he just manages to wedge his foot under the ball.

It was just like something you would do in the playground. He's still doing it in the football league. Outrageous goal from David McGoldrick. Come on then, let's hear it. And it's David McGoldrick into the area. McGoldrick digs the keeper. Will he drop it? It will drop it.

McGoldrick makes it two. Lovely finish from Didsey. Really, really smart finish. He's celebrating in front of the Gillingham fans at that end. They won't like it. I love it. I absolutely love that finish too, Dave. Mark me down for that sort of finish.

Let's have you, 72- please, Jamie. Well, it's got to go to a former club of ours, Cardiff City, getting absolutely tonked by Leeds United. And listen, we know how good they are, but it really was a second half capitulation. It was almost copy and paste on the majority of the goals. Dan James breaks through the lines, swears it, tapping. Ofoepo down the other end, breaks through the lines, cross it, tapping. 7-0 should just not be happening at this level. Jason Mohamed of the BBC and Final Score, cover your ears now.

Let's hear it. Pirro waits for it, Pirro. Oh, 7-0! This is extraordinary. Joel Pirro takes his personal tally to a dozen and Leeds United have seen the champions here today surely at Ellen Road

7-0 yes 7-0 they've absolutely ripped open Cardiff and left them in shreds on a memorable

afternoon at Ellen Road that's 7 in brackets S-E-V-E-N. Joby, why are you shaking your head? Oh, just brutal, innit, man? I think you just, I can't

remember, you know when it's getting on top, you know, you're 3-4 down and at some point in the game you've just got to go, lads, no more. You know, let's just get through, keep a little bit of self-respect and it's one of them that could be a real damaging defeat, you know, in terms of where they are in the table uh you ever had a seven jobby never had a seven i've had a couple of bad ones but again i just feel there's a point you just get to when you're

like look just no more now i had a six one once away at berry less said the better before we go we just wanted to send our love to the middlesbrough full-back, Tommy Smith, friend of the show, who today has announced his retirement at the age of 32, struggling with injuries. Tom, and he's made the decision to call it a day. Fantastic pro, Joby. Yeah, I was with him and actually I had a good chat with him. We did the game on Monday night and he sort of told me that this would be coming out this week

and he's been trying to get back, obviously, but you get to a point where he would have needed another procedure which he's due to go in for and now it's just a matter of you know quality of life he's got kids you know he wants to go and be able to have a kickabout with them and you know all those things that you want to do as a dad first and foremost so yeah unfortunately for him he's got to this point but listen he's been absolutely a brilliant pro he's had a great career and certainly um i think another one pending he's been superb since he's been with us and uh i'm sure we'll always uh have some big opportunities for him here to come and work once he's got himself sorted out

indeed good luck smudger uh that is it for this episode of the football daily thank you to the shrewsbury manager gareth ainsworth and to my right arm joe b mackinac from the next one steve crossman will be here with a reaction to the EFL Cup semi-final between Arsenal and Newcastle. As for us here on 72 Plus, we'll be back next Thursday. Catch you then!