Football Daily - BONUS: Thomas Tuchel names first England squad

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

BBC Football Correspondent John Murray, BBC Sport's Alex Howell and The Mirror's Chief Football Writer John Cross react to Thomas Tuchel’s first England squad. Hear from the England manager, and get reaction to call-ups for Jordan Henderson and Marcus Rashford.The England manager talks about some of his big exclusions, including tough calls on Morgan Gibbs-White, James Maddison and Conor Gallagher.There's reaction to Henderson's first England call-up since November 2023, Rashford's recall, and maiden Three Lions camps for Newcastle United's Dan Burn and Arsenal's Myles Lewis-Skelly.Timecodes: 00:20 The squad 01:30 Initial reaction 02:20 Thomas Tuchel with John Murray 10:25 Jordan Henderson recalled 15:45 Road to the World Cup 17:55 Experience & youth 20:00 Marcus Rashford recalled 23:10 Reece James back in the squad 24:05 Myles Lewis-Skelly & Dan Burn 29:40 Notable exclusions 34:10 A new eraBBC Sounds / 5 Live Commentaries this week: Sat 15 Mar 1500 Ipswich v Nottingham Forest in the Premier League Sun 16 Mar 1330 Arsenal v Chelsea in the Premier League Sun 16 Mar 1630 Liverpool v Newcastle in the EFL Cup Final Sun 16 Mar 1900 Leicester v Man Utd in the Premier League

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off. Jupiter versus Saturn. It's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice.

And also in this series we're discussing history music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello from John Murray. This is a Five Live Football Daily special all about Thomas Tuchel's first England squad selection. His biggest day in the job so far ahead of the opening World Cup qualifiers, both at Wembley against Albania next Friday and Latvia the following Monday. We will hear from the man himself shortly, his full five live interview, but the top lines are as follows. Recalls for Jordan Henderson, Marcus Rashford

and Rhys James as well. Kyle Walker is in. There are first-time call-ups for Dan Byrne and Myles Lewis Skelly. Ben White not included but is available again for England. There is no Morgan Gibbs White, no Angel Gomez, no Connor Gallagher, no James Madison, no Jack Grealish. Also no Adam Wharton, Jared Brantway, Rico Lewis, Ethan Wanhri, but those last four are all in Lee Carsley's under-21 squad. I'm sitting here just a stone's throw away from Wembley Stadium and I'm going to discuss it with my BBC colleague Alex Howell and also the Daily Mirror Chief Football writer, John Cross. But before we dive into it in depth,

just give me initial reaction to Thomas Tuchel's first squad, Alex. Just so interesting, so many talking points, and I feel Tuchel's really laid out his plans and the direct way of thinking for the World Cup. John? I'm staggered about Jordan Henderson. I've got to say, I think Henderson overshadows everything else. It's I'm staggered about Jordan Henderson. I've got to say I think Henderson

overshadows everything else. It's the big talking point of the squad. I'm amazed that he's back in. I love Jordan Henderson. He's been a brilliant servant for England down the years. Fabulous and a great influence in the dressing room. But if you want a cheerleader, appoint him to your staff. Don't pick him because he doesn't merit as a player player I'm sorry he doesn't. More on that to follow but we'll hear from Thomas Tuchel now that was right up there on the agenda when I sat down inside Wembley Stadium to chew it all over. So here we are Thomas Tuchel big day big biggest day so far for you as the England manager the England head coach, naming your first squad. You talked about the strong debates that you had, emotional debates. What were the toughest calls? Oh wow, there are some tough ones. I mean, not with likes of James Madison, likes of

with likes of James Madison, likes of Gibbs White and also Jacob Ramsey. But I'm sure that I miss out now on players that were also very, very close, very close calls. They were all disappointed, of course, but it was important for me to bring the message in person and that they hear it from me. Listen, there are many ways to justify a nomination. It can be on form, it can be on availability, of not being injured, of being injured and then you're maybe not in the team, of being experienced, of being young. So in the end it can depend on your position and we had to take this decision. Conor Gallagher, of course, very, very different,

a difficult call after his top match against Real Madrid. But there's huge concurrence on the positions. Every player understands that and this is also a nice feeling that I got from this calls. Everyone knows he has to be on his top top level to make the cut and this is now the first cut which we had to do and from there we built. I must say you raised a few eyebrows with some of the selections and I would confess to you that I did wonder whether Jordan Henderson would play for England again

did he wonder that himself? I would confess to you that I did wonder whether Jordan Henderson would play for England again. Did he wonder that himself? Yes, he wondered that himself some weeks ago when I called him and he was not shy to express that. If you saw the reaction yesterday when I called him in person to tell him that he should come on Monday to camp, then you know instantly that you picked the right person. The pride and to be back for England and to be in an England camp with an age of 30 plus,

with 80 plus caps is one of a kind, is outstanding. And it just proves that he brings what he brings to any team. He brings leadership, he brings personality, he brings character, he brings the right energy. This is what we want from him. And similarly with Marcus Rashford, did he perhaps fear that there might not be a way back to England? Maybe he did not say that to me, but maybe. He was pretty much unpickable in the last couple of seasons

regarding the concurrence on his position. And he made a huge, huge impact from the start at Aston Villa. He was very impressive as a substitute and very impressive with his presence, influencing games, assisting goals, bullying defenders. And the most important for me to see was the effort against the ball, was that he put in his body, he put in sprints,

he puts in intensity off the ball. This is the most important. So now I felt that it is very important that we call him up and we keep him on track and he feels that he is being pushed from us. So that was the reason behind. And on your uncapped players, Miles Lewis Skelly, you know, he's clearly impressed with the way that he's played. What about his personality as well and his character? I wonder what you thought of when he scored his goal against Manchester City, the way that he mimicked Erling Haaland's celebration.

What does that tell you? That he's still young, that tells me that he's young and he follows his instincts and he does, yeah, he maybe does not think twice and that's a good thing. It maybe turns out sometimes that he overdoes it or he does something that he maybe should could have done better and more clever in a more clever way. But listen, he's very, very young, so he will continue to do mistakes. And I think that that's fair enough and well taken. He's very, very impressive.

He's picked for Arsenal despite having huge concurrence on his position. He's picked on a very regular basis. He's playing with a lot of charisma. He's playing with a lot of freedom and he's nothing but impressive. But even now that you mentioned like Declan Rice took care of it, of his celebration straight away so this is what talent needs they need guidance they need role models and this is where Jordan Henderson even like someone like Dan Byrne, someone like Declan Rice come into play Harry Kane come into play and need to take their responsibility and guide and help the boy to develop into

his best version of himself. and on Dan Byrne You know talk about Rashford and Henderson wondering if they would ever play for England again Dan Byrne, I mean surely must have thought that international football had passed him by I think he had more the feeling that he was Overlooked from time to time and and I I agreed with him and it all almost happened to me and I agreed with him and it almost happened to me. I watched so many matches from Newcastle because of course there are also other players from our squad and the team and he plays so solid, he plays so solid on such a high level that you get used to it, you get used to it that he's not doing maybe the most spectacular game, but he's also not doing spectacular mistakes. So he plays so solid on such a high level, so consistently. He plays Champions League, he brings them to Champions League, now he's again,

he brings them to finals, he takes a very natural leadership role in the team and it's nothing but impressive. And because you get so quickly used to it, it's obviously dangerous to overlook him. And he had the feeling that sometimes he was overlooked and he was very confident and was an impressive phone call that made me even more sure to pick him. His character, isn't he?

Yeah. And was Jared Brantwick close? Very, very close. Was a tough call. He has every right to be disappointed. He had every right to hope to be in the squad. He did everything what he had to do. The disadvantage maybe for him in the end

was that he is still pickable for the under-21s, so we can still expose him to International football he will be still some days close at SGP So maybe we take advantage of that and bring him even to training but he is a very impressive player very nice character to speak with and yeah, we We told him that directly and he's I think he will make his way into camp the next times. Very good Thomas, I'll let you go.

But you've got the squad there in front of you. You love the look of it? Yes, yes, yes. Finally when it's done, it's like even in club football it's a bit more difficult because in club football you debate normally about maybe one player in the squad or out the squad and now in club football You can name I think 18 or even 20 guys So it's less of a debate but here you have 55 59 players to choose from it's it was

Quite some work, but now I'm I'm happy with the group and it's on us to prove that we call the right players Yeah, listen good luck off you go. Thank you. Thank you. So off he went, Thomas Tuchel. He took that piece of paper with all of the names on it and went off to his various other commitments. John Cross, Alex Howell. John, you've already touched on it.

Your feelings on Jordan Henderson's recall. You've heard Thomas Tuchel's reasoning, would you wish to expand? Well his reasoning was good there wasn't it and eloquent and that's the point I think that Tuchel comes across so well and he expresses his points so well that you embrace it, you listen to it and you understand it, don't necessarily have to agree with it. I do think he's coming at it from the dressing room angle isn't he and about unity and about kind of building a team spirit and a club spirit within

that England camp and I think without doubt Jordan Henderson is down the years has been a really positive influence on that. I think most well illustrated back in the Qatar World Cup 2022, well I think Jude Bellingham was a young player coming through and they struck up a remarkable relationship and an understanding Friendliness and a chemistry on the pitch which really worked They were together brilliantly on the on the pitch against France or remember that game so I can see the value But it's just about what Henderson does now as a player and I think he left Liverpool to go to Saudi That was a bad experience for him. He lost his level. He lost his England place He kind of came back to Europe with Ajax

But he's just been off the radar if you speak to Dutch, you know journalists as I have done today They will tell you that he's had a good season Let me tell you. 38 appearances for Ajax this season, so he's played the full season. As you say, he's the captain. Didn't play last night, he was suspended, and they got well beaten by Frankfurt and knocked out of Europe.

But 34 years old, 81 caps, the last one of those was nearly a year and a half ago. Yeah, and 36 by the time of the World Cup. By the way he was suspended because he got himself into trouble by badmouthing the referee so not the greatest leadership but look I do really respect Henderson and I think Henderson will go down in this particular era as such an important player and such an important and positive influence. player and such an important and positive influence. So it's just making that marker. If you like Jordan Henderson as a leader and as a real role model for some of the younger members of the squad, which undoubtedly he is,

appoint him to your staff, make him a player coach, give him that sort of role because I think it sets a bad example if you like really in a bad way forward that basically you don't have to do it on the pitch and I'm sorry as well as he's played for Ajax I don't think he's been at the required level for England and I think it just sets a bad tone. I don't particularly like it. I can see the reasoning. You're not going to upset the squad but I bet you Morgan Gibbs-White is going Jordan Henderson? I mean that's the point isn't it? Some of the younger players are going, what have I got to do to get in when Jordan Henderson

is you know, and we're going back to the names and reputations. That's the element that I don't like. So you really have to sort of decipher between the player who earns it on the pitch and then the role model as I say. Point him to your staff and that would be a brilliant, brilliant decision by Tuchel to have him in and around the sort of the role model as I say point him to your staff and that would be a brilliant brilliant decision by Tushel to have him in and around the camp. He shouldn't be involved I don't think. 36 he'll be at the World Cup he shouldn't be under consideration now. I remember thinking that going up to the World Cup in Qatar that we thought that might be a possibility that that Jordan

Henderson would be would eventually become part of the Garris Southgate staff, but I mean Alex You know with all of the I mean I've got my piece of paper here that I wrote down with all of the potential names On it there are over 60 names on there I know that Tuchel spoke to between 55 and 60 of them or at least contacted them. This morning when the squad came out there were still two names I didn't have on my list Jordan Henderson and Dan Byrne. It does show the depth that there is in England

to pick from but I think it just shows how much of a shock those two names and particularly Henderson like John has said is it felt like it was goodbye to Henderson and the end of his England career leading, it felt like it was goodbye to Henderson and the end of his England career leading up to the Euros. It was such an emotional thing wasn't it that Gareth Southgate spoke about leaving him out. That felt like the end. I must have read ten pieces with squad predictors ahead of this and I don't think one had Henderson even as a coach. So that's how far away he was. I remember thinking, he did cross my mind,

and I thought, don't be ridiculous, he won't be in the squad. Exactly that, and then when you see it this morning, when the squad comes out, it is a massive shock, and I think the reason it contradicts slightly, and I understand what John is saying about it doesn't set the best precedent. Thomas Tuchel spent a lot of that press conference saying,

oh, he got him imposed the English style, the physicality of the English league, in which Jordan Henderson, in his prime, was one of the best at getting around, putting pressure on teams, getting into tackles. At 35 in June and 34 now, playing in another league that isn't as intense as the Premier League, is he still going to be able to bring that?

And then you look at the squad, there aren't actually too many traditional centre midfielders in it. It's Declan Rice, it's Jordan Henderson, Jude Bellingham, and then you've got the players in the midfield, you've got players like Eberritch Eze, Curtis Jones, yes, but Henderson's probably going to play. He said, Thomas Tuchel, about the style of play,. He said we've got all of the options. Didn't want to say in advance whether it's going to be three at the back, four at the back. But he did say the style of his England team needs to reflect the Premier League, play like an English team,

direct attacking style, rhythm, intensity. He said we'll go into a crash course on it from Monday. He said we'll go into a crash course on it from Monday But our colleague Henry winter made a very good point and we've just had BBC colleagues who've come back from big meetings in America And the word there is how hot and humid it is going to be during the course of the World Cup So how do we work that out? Yeah, I do think what have we got? I think we've got maybe 15 games by my calculation starting with these two qualifiers so that's including friendlies before the World Cup in America and I do think that's got to be positioned and I think the ideal from the FA was to have a couple of

friendlies in America wasn't it in June but obviously the qualifying group and the size of that and fixtures and dates hasn't allowed that to happen and I think that's a shame because I do think it will be a massive consideration it will be a huge I think you know negative for for England and sort of a obstacle for quite a few European teams just because of the climate and conditions so I do I do wonder about that because when we look at English teams from the Premier League and you see them in European competition in the Champions League, Europa League, whatever it is, the intensity and the physicality of those teams so overwhelms even the best teams from

Italy, Spain on occasion, doesn't it? And that's what wins us games, if you like. And I just don't think you'll be able to do that so much in the World Cup. So it's about keeping that balance right and I also think you've probably then therefore got to have kind of technicians in the team we are moving nicely in that direction players that can make it happen and I'm thinking about you know Cole Palmer here but kind of Saka when he's back fit for example but then also skilled players who can keep the ball in midfield so maybe that's why

you know he's thinking about thinking about a little bit more experience because I do feel as if it's got an older feel this squad. Gareth Southgate and Lee Carsley. The average age only slightly higher, I believe, than Lee Carsley's last squad. Well, that is interesting, I must say, because my initial reaction, having not done the sums, was that it would be older. I mean I've branded it sort of Dad's army frankly simply because I just think that there are players there of experience you know Kyle Walker is stuck with him

he's been out to see him and Milan's clearly done enough for him on and off the pitch to convince him that he's the way forward. Harry Kane will remain his captain, he said that very clearly. Jordan Pickford now in his 30s and these are the decisions that he's got to make and I guess if he's talking about intensity, being direct, being kind of really on the front foot, what better team has done that this season than Nottingham Forest for example and for Gibbs White and you know for Anderson for example not to make it I just find that strange. Lee Carsley's last squad average age 25.4 years old, Thomas Tuko's first squad 25.8 years old so you know not a huge difference. you know, not a huge difference.

Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox, and we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planetar. Jupiter versus Saturn! Well, it's very well done that, because in the script it does say, wrestling voice. After all of that it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series we're discussing history of music, recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes.

So listen wherever you get your podcasts. It's the scandal that rocked Rugby Union to its core. The so-called Bloodgate scandal. Tom Williams now receiving attention. It seems so clear that this wasn't real blood. It's out and out cheating. This is a story of lies and deception, conspiracies and cover-ups. There was terror that it could tear the house down.

Courtroom drama and secret deals. So obviously a lie. And a human cost that changed lives and careers forever. Dean Richards is found guilty and banned for three years. I'm Ross Kemp and this is Sports Strangers Crimes, Bloodgate. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Bruges looked more like his old self, but with Matt Upson, who was alongside me, we had the discussion and the feeling between us was that maybe a little bit early that he'd not shown quite enough yet, but he's in. Last cap a year ago, Rashford is back. I don't think there's ever any doubt in his quality and every manager who Rashford has

played under has picked him, even Ameren picked him to start with before he got to the position he did and which led him to go to Aston Villa. Thomas Tuco has been a massive fan of Marcus Rashford. Scored big goals against him. Exactly big goals against him when he's manager of Paris Saint-Germain for Manchester United and spoke about how much of an effect he can have. Gareth Southgate at times always found a way to ease Rashford in even if particularly it didn't feel like it was right. Everyone knows the quality he has and he does seem freer at Aston Villa but I did think today Tuchel was being very clever. I think talking Rashford's work off the ball up, praising it so much, yes it's a nice compliment to Marcus Rashford it

makes him feel good but it means he can't come to England and not do that at the national team even if he hasn't actually been doing it to a level that Tuchel has said he has. Mentioned his work rate did Thomas Tuchel about Marcus Rashford. On the surprise-ometer level what were you John on Rashford's return between 1 and 10? 5 out of 10 I kind of thought he had a good chance and in previewing the squad I'm pleased to say that I did say that he's reignited his love for the game at Villa and I think that's exactly what he's done because I think early in the season, the first half of the season, if you watch Marcus Rashford on the rare occasions he got a chance for Man United

it looked to me as if he'd almost fallen out of love with the game. I think we all know what a talent Marcus Rashford is. He's incredibly athletic, he's got incredible I think you know speed, he's got a decent scoring record for England in his 60 caps and I think that he has been to tournaments and he offers a big game alternative and he can really make an impact. So I've always been in favour of Rashford, just as long as he can kind of get that form back. I think it was interesting for me as well, I think Alex makes a great point. I think the other point that Tuchel made was that we wanted to include him, to almost get his focus back from the start to kind of keep that focus and I love the

way that he spoke about Rashford and that such clever man management because you are saying to Rashford who probably feels a bit wounded and hurt still from Man United that Tom Yostusha was saying to him you are good for me I love you I respect you I want you in my plans and that you can bet Rashford will buy into. He will enjoy that. Players will love that. It panders to his ego.

And I think it really speaks to him. I've seen enough, I think, in Rashford's performances for Villa, even though obviously they've been a bit in and out, for me to think that he's on his way back to his former. I think an in-form Marcus Rashford deserves to be in. Next, Rhys James. A bit of a Tuchel favourite.

Won the Champions League with Thomas Tuchel, but has had lots of injury issues this season. 13 appearances for Chelsea. Start at nine, honours a substitute in four, has played more in recent weeks. Thomas Tuchel said they triple-checked with Chelsea on the state of his health. And when you look at Rhys James and the appearances he's made for England, it's kind of shocking when you look, he's only made 16 appearances in the five years since he's made his debut. It is interesting because Enzo Maresca has been speaking about Rhys James as potentially midfielder and whether that's something that Tuchel thinks of and he has the ability to play in the back free, the right centre back which we've seen him do and also right wing back. Tuchel is

a massive favourite, called him Reece so he's got a nickname for him so I think he's going to be a key part of his England squad. Before we talk about some of those who've been left out, we must talk about Dan Byrne and Miles Lewis Skelly, who I felt Miles Lewis Skelly would be close and indeed he's in. What a season for him. Fantastic it's a really good story I think this one because he's a teenager still he's still got a lot of learning to do I feel you can see that in his disciplinary record I mean Thomas Tuchel himself said about the learning curve. Absolutely and and

what I expect about Thomas Tuchel is that he said on form he's made a compelling case and you'd have him in but he talked about being a father figure and needed to kind of almost be a parental voice of kind of calm and saying you know he thought about it in his head whether this is a good step for him or not to be elevated because he hasn't played for the under 2121s. He's been fast-forwarded straight into the seniors and I think that's a big, big leap. And if you are not the right character or individual, then I think your ego can quickly get carried, you know, get run away with you. And I think that would be a concern and Thomas Tooke voiced that concern, if you like, but

then quickly said that injury is dictated and we had him in. I would argue that on form alone this season has to be in, particularly when you're without Luke Shaw, Lewis Hall is still out. I think Miles Lewis Kelly has played so well, I think he's tremendous, he's versatile, he's tenacious, I love that. He's intelligent enough to step into midfield. I really like him. He has got himself into a little bit of bother getting sent off a couple of times, one not, you know, one overturned. But I do think it's part of the learning curve, but on merit I think he deserves to be in. He's been one of the bright points of Arsenal's season, but not to bring it back to Henderson. But I found it interesting how Tuchel referenced how Henderson can help Lewis Skelly specifically

into this England team and then the same way he did with Jude Bellingham, Lewis Skelly, he only made his first team debut for Arsenal in September. So to have someone like Henderson to put his arm around him is probably more of a compelling case. Do you remember as well he got booked before he made his debut at Man City, when he was up to tricks on the touchline? I do, I do. Honestly, I'm sure Manchester City fans bring it up on every available occasion. But there is a bit of a learning curve here, because I did see the West Ham game,

for example, and he almost turned into trouble. He was trying to, he tries to own the game and I like that and he's really aggressive and strong on the pitch but he did turn himself into trouble, lost possession, then had to commit the foul which was then deemed on a VAR review as a sending off offence. It was kind of his fault so he's kind of got to learn and iron those things. He should have been sent off in the Champions League in Eindhoven. And so it's, you know, almost exercising those demons. I actually think if you speak to him, and I have, I think he's such an intelligent, bright lad that there's no doubt about it. All those things go into his head and he will learn for it, improve and become a better,

more mature player. So I do think this is reward. And we're in danger of doing what Thomas Tuchel said overlooking the tallest player in the squad. Absolutely, six foot seven but often overlooked. Yes there's a bit of a dig to previous England regimes wasn't it about Dan Burn he has been spoken about before, potential left-back issues, which shows how much of a problem position it is, but I suppose without a Harry Maguire, without a John Stones. I mean, listen, I was surprised Jared Bramthwaite was not in the squad. And yes, he's in the under-21s, and as we heard from Thomas Tougalais, it was close. But Dan Byrne, who is also,

I know, a hugely popular character so I think that's you know something that was big during the Southgate years character I think is playing a part here and also what I mean whatever you think about his abilities what an incredible human story this is on Dan Byrne who's gonna be here at Wembley playing in the League Cup final on Sunday and then might well be playing at Wembley for England next week and this is the lads who worked in Asda I think at one stage was at Blythe Spartans and has ended up with his favourite team. Look I think it's a great story and I love the little anecdote that Thomas Hooper gave us talking about how when he

picked up the phone to Dan Burner how much Dan Burn loved it. And also he made the point, didn't he, about this is a brotherhood, it's a team ethic and it's something that players should really buy into. And I think actually that was a hallmark, wasn't it, of Gareth Southgate's reign and I think that's what served Southgate so well during certain tournaments. Not so much at the last Euros when I think the dressing room was at times a little bit difficult to manage and wasn't always completely in unison and I think maybe, maybe with a nod to Jordan Henderson as well but those two are kind of an attempt to bring it back there. Would I have picked Dan Burn on ability as a player? No, I wouldn't have because I just don't think that he's of an international level. You can't

fail to like him and engage him because he's the boy next door story and that's what it's all about isn't it? That's what we dreamed of as kids isn't it to play for England and Dan Burn has frankly made it possible. So it's a great story but I'm completely convinced on it possible. So it's a great story but I'm completely convinced on it either. Four goalkeepers, Aaron Ramsdale back in, bottom of the league with Southampton, one of the four goalkeepers. But let's whiz through some of those who are not in. Where should we start on this one? Connor Gallagher, you know, playing for Atletico Madrid in the Champions League, scoring in the first minute the other night and let me as well mention

because there are a number of these players who are in the England under-21 squad which is a very strong under-21 squad for Lee Carsley so in that under-21 squad Rico Lewis Archie Gray Bram Thwaite we mentioned, Wharton, Elliot Anderson of Nottingham Forest, Wanerri's in there, Henshel Wood of Brighton, Joe Bellingham, Omari Hutchinson, Liam De Lap, Harvey Elliott is in there as well and Jay Stansfield of League One in the under-21 squad. So you know that answers a lot of the questions about why certain players weren't involved. It does, it does. It's a hard question isn't it for players that aren't in because as John says

Tuchel's so good at justifying his reasons for having the players that are in. It's hard to argue but there are some surprising omissions I think John touched on it with Morgan, Gibbs-White and particularly Conor Gallagher, those players who have, you'd probably describe it as that traditional English style front foot, really high energy to have them not in the squad, probably doesn't match up with Tuchel's reasoning for players that are in. Madison, Grealish, Sancho is another one not included and I also John want to talk to you about Ben White who is not in this squad but Thomas Tuchel has made it clear that Ben White is now available for England again but is still easing his way back from injury even though he

started for Arsenal the other night. Yeah he did I think that was his first start in four months so and he did look rusty I thought at the time. I think Ben White has done enough in recent seasons to justify being a contender to be England's first choice right back. Do I think that Ben White in his heart of hearts really wants to come back and play for England where I think the danger would be his first game at Wembley I think he'd probably get booed and that's the nature of England matches and England fixtures I'd hate to see it so I don't want to promote that idea but equally I do think it would probably

happen and I think there was a reason wasn't there why it sort of kind of you know Jesseson himself if you like from the 2022 World Cup and you know has that changed has that kind of you know does always want to be you know sort of being involved in in that tournament experience he's I think on merit he should be in the England squad I still think he's obviously had a conversation with Thomas Tuchel he's made it clear that yes okay I'll be considered again but I still think it's still quite a big decision then to kind of include him again. So let's see how that one evolves really. I think Madison has just been too inconsistent for me. I just think he's clearly a good player on his day. He played well.

He suggested he was close though. Yeah, well I can understand why. You know know but he's just got to show a consistency and he's just been nowhere near I don't think on a consistent level for Spurs this season I think you've got to show it a little bit more. From that under 21s list I would love to have seen De Lapp and Branth wait in. I think their emissions at the expense of others who have perhaps had opportunities before I think is a little bit frustrating because listen it's incredibly strong under 21 opportunities before. I think he's a little bit frustrating because listen he's incredibly strong under 21 squad but I think De Lapp's got a future as an England player

really do and Brant Thwaite without a shadow of a doubt is a top player. Just one or two who aren't in the squad just in case people are wondering. Ollie Watkins went off with an injury at half time for Aston Villa the other night so he's not in the squad. Madweke has got an injury at the moment obviously Saka, Kobi Menu is another one missing from the midfield, Maguire and Stones and Joe Gomez at the back and we mentioned Lewis Hall as well but you know it is a it's a vast field when we're talking about players who have not made it. It really is and I think that's why it's so key that Tuco is such a high calibre manager and knows exactly what he wants.

Those little touch points and little messages he gets across, they are the key bit that separate him from the field and maybe get you over the line. The key messaging, the key bits around players who are in and who are not. It helps the players buy into it. That kind of thing I think is key and that is effectively what the FA are paying for aren't they? Those big decisions. Just while we begin to wrap it up, really fresh feel about it today wasn't there? And you know, there's genuine interest. I've not seen a queue outside the media line to get into to follow an England

squad for a long time and that I think speaks for itself. It really does. I think there's so much interest around him, isn't he? I mean basically we've foreign managers of England before but we've not had a German in charge of England before. And I should have pointed out that there were at least five different German media organisations in the conference. Absolutely. He all wanted a question in German, an answer in German, but he wouldn't oblige out of it, as he said, respect for the room, which I thought was nice. And listen, I just think Thomas Tuchel feels to me almost anglicised about it and I think he will do really well. I do think we're very familiar with him, I really like him, I think he's incredibly engaging, I do think he will do really well. I do think we're very familiar with him. I really like him. I think he's incredibly engaging.

I do think he's made such a positive, strong start with his news conference today and then explaining the squad. I love his messaging. I do think he's very passionate. You can see that. He's incredibly intense and I think he's really strong in that. And I think the players will buy into it. And I like his style of football. He's got great experience and tactical nous, but his sound bites, often for an England manager, what you say is almost just as important because he's so scrutinised, he's so in the public eye and today, as it's almost, it feels like his first day in the job if you like, really impressive. Yeah and I was sitting towards the back and I noticed John McDermott from the FA

was sitting just in front of us quite often nodding his head as Thomas Tuchel was speaking but it was all different for us today. For years and years now we've been used to squad announcement Thursday afternoon 2 o'clock. This one Friday morning 11 a.m. and also it was released by the FA at 9 o'clock this morning with a video as well a little later on, which is worth looking. If anyone goes to the England X feed, they will see the pictures of Thomas Tuchel

sitting behind a desk with a scarf on it, a notepad, a very smart pen, a cup of coffee, talking about how he's looking forward to hugging the players. That made it all different. It did a massive feel and taking into account the players matches and and messaging and feel like you say the video and pictures because it was the same for so long it is quite nice to have that change and because he's so engaging he says he wants to make it have a club feel maybe even that's a

Decision to have the press conferences on Friday like they do at clubs though those little touches I do think it's exciting going forward. But the remarkable thing about it is, you know, we're sitting here. It's March and He has contracted for 18 months So we are really a little over a year away from the World Cup, which England intend to qualify from a group with Albania, Latvia, Andorra, and Serbia. You know, this is a short-term project. It really is, and I think that's reflected in the squad, because I don't think that really Thomas Tuchel

has to worry about kind of the long-term development of certain players. If Luis Skelly, for example, is your best left back in the Premier League right now, from an English point of view, you've got to pick him. You don't worry about so much about the long term project and his development, put him straight in because he's here to win matches, not kind of think about the players development that's in George's pathways and that sort of thing. It's a quick fix and it feels like that. It really does feel a complete contrast. I don't think there's anything wrong in that,

but it does feel as if, because you were appointing him for 18 months, the mission is clear to win the World Cup, and everything else can be completely brushed aside and ignored. Maybe we've missed that. Maybe that's something that we've done wrong in past tournaments,

because England have been at the business end of the last few tournaments and they've been so so close. So it's about finding something extra to get us over the line if you like. And I do think the players will really buy into Tuchel and really respond to his methods and see him as a really stellar coach. Well there we are. He's certainly given us plenty to talk about as you will have noticed. stellar coach. importantly we will have commentary on the first two England qualifiers for next year's World Cup which are on the Friday night against Albania and then the following Monday against Latvia. So lots more to come on Thomas Tuchel, don't worry about that. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox.

And we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet on. Jupiter versus Saturn! Well, it's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series we're discussing history of music, recording with Brian Eno, and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts.