Football Daily - Champions League Debrief: Liverpool lose to PSG on Penalties

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

After an incredible 210 minutes of football, Gianluigi Donnarumma saved penalties from Darwin Nunez and Curtis Jones to put Paris Saint-Germain into the Champions League quarter-finals at Liverpool’s expense. Arne Slot gives his verdict on ‘the best game of football’ he’s been involved in. Mark Chapman is joined by former Liverpool defender Stephen Warnock, Ian Dennis and Statman Dave for reaction to the tie, and French football journalist Julien Laurens joins the Football Daily to discuss how important this win is for Paris Saint-Germain. John Murray and Andros Townsend are with Mark to look ahead to Aston Villa’s last-16 tie against Club Brugge and test his movie knowledge. Plus we discuss Manchester United’s new stadium plans with Football Finance Rob Wilson.Timecodes: 00:38 – Reaction from Anfield 12:45 – Julien Laurens reacts to a milestone win for PSG 17:49 – Arne Slot reaction 20:12 – Aston Villa v Club Brugge Preview 24:10 – Manchester United’s new stadium plans BBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week: Wed 12 Mar 2000 Aston Villa v Club Brugge in the Champions League, Thu 13 Mar 2000 Man Utd v Real Sociedad in the Europa League.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off. Jupiter versus Saturn. It's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice.

And also in this series we're discussing history music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts. On the Football Daily Podcast, the Champions League debrief. With Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Liverpool are out of the Champions League. Paris Saint-Germain won 1-0 on the night so it finished 1-1 aggregate after 120 minutes before Paris Saint-Germain booked their place in the quarterfinals on penalties. Statman Dave is with us. We'll be joined by Andros Townsend shortly to look ahead to Aston Villa's Champions League tie on Wednesday. Former Liverpool defender Stephen Warnock was watching his Anfield alongside Ian Dennis

and here's our attendee. This will clinch it for Paris Saint-Germain and it is the 19-year-old forward Desire Douay who places it down. They're waiting to celebrate in expectation behind that goal. Stuttering run-up by Douay, and he scores! Blast the ball past Alisson! Paris Saint-Germain players' head for Donnarumme, who drops to his knees as they all go to congratulate the giant Italian goalkeeper.

A flare has been let off in the Paris Saint-Germain half, and Paris Saint-Germain have achieved what no other side has ever achieved before. When Liverpool have won an away first leg, they have always progressed in European competition, but at the 40th time of Asking, it is Paris Saint-Germain who go through on a penalty shoot-out, they prevail, and they'll be going through to the last eight. The scenes and the celebrations tell you everything. Luis Enrique, he stormed across to Donnarumma to celebrate in front of his fans,

he knows how much that means, the Paris Saint-Germain players, they know they've been in a game tonight, they knew it was going to be difficult, they've been exceptional tonight, it's been a game of the highest order, but you have to say Paris Saint-Germain were outstanding, they held the nerves in the penalties, you just get that feeling now, whoever won this game could potentially go on to win it. You think they'll get to the final, a game of the highest order. Well, Paris Saint-Germain had previously lost their last four in England, they might be coming back to these shores if they are to meet Aston Villa in the quarter-finals,

but they have knocked out the favourites, and Liverpool now will have to dust themselves down and regroup for the League Cup final at the weekend. But it is Paris Saint-Germain, and they always had the confidence they would be able to do it after the disappointment of last week, and that they have. They've had to go the whole hog, but they've knocked out Liverpool in a penalty shootout after it finished 1-1 in aggregate, 4-1 in the penalty shootout. Let's do a bigger picture first of all, shall we? Stephen, Ian, Stattman here as well. They have been... That tie overall has been such a sensational tie

with two phenomenal games of football. Yeah, two incredible managers who have tactically set the teams up in ways to hurt each other, find solutions, try and nullify what they're trying to do, and the players have been exceptional, both sets of players over the two legs have been incredible. The quality that we've seen at times, not only from a point of view of the quality that we've seen at times, not only from a

point of view of the way that they've attacked but defensively as well. We've seen two outstanding performances from Alisson last week and Donnarumma tonight and it's been a privilege to be at both games because they are teams of the highest order them two. And maybe on the balance of the two legs, Stephen, you've done both the games. Paris Saint-Germain have deserved it? Yeah, I think so. I think when you think of the opportunity

or the chances created, I think the performance from Paris Saint-Germain in the first half tonight, they edged it. Liverpool were better in the second half. Then you look at the second half of extra time, I thought Paris Saint-Germain were brilliant. But overall, I'd just say, I mean, it's very difficult to say when you look at the stats and everything, but to the naked eye and just watching the game, I thought Paris Saint-Germain probably just edged it.

Just in terms of those two goalkeeping performance, you mentioned both of them being brilliant. Over the two legs, Alisson made a whopping 16 saves, preventing and expected goals of 3.23, which is ridiculous. And we kept on seeing Donnarumma punch it, eight punches today, which is the most of any goalkeeper in the knockout stages so far. Big performances in between the sticks of both of them. But more often than not, Testa punch it straight back out into the middle of the penalty area. Doesn't he seem... He's an enigma, is Donnarumma. I mean, stick him in a penalty shootout and crikey you're going to have an advantage.

And look, he makes great saves. But you do have an air of nervousness around him as well, don't you? Yeah, I said it in a commentary a couple of times that he's got that unpredictability about him and he does seem to have an error in him at times, but that was a really strong performance from Don Rumer. He was probably at fault for the Harvey Elliott goal in the first leg, I thought he probably should have saved that, but when you needed a player to stand up and be counted, some of the punches tonight, under pressure, not trying to claim them, not trying to show off in any way,

just doing a simple thing, big punches, making sure that they're clearing the lines, it's been a really positive performance. They're letting themselves down a little bit here, Paris Saint-Germain on the pitch though. Hakeem had got a flag and he went to walk in towards the centre circle, it was a Paris Saint-Germain flag that he wanted to try and show off inside the centre circle, the Liverpool supporters took exception to that. A lot of the Paris Saint-Germain players have actually gone down the tunnel, but Luis Enrique, Mark, is actually saying to them,

no, don't leave the field of play, come back and celebrate in front of your supporters. So a lot of them are now going to come back down the tunnel to continue their celebrations. OK, the cameras at the moment that I've got in front of me just focusing on Donnarummo as he does head towards the tunnel. Just on the penalties themselves, Stephen, and nobody deliberately misses a penalty,

and I'm not having to go at the players who did miss a penalty here. Are you, what I'm more interested in is the order that Liverpool put their penalty takers in or who else was going to take the penalties because given... Look, I don't know what Darwin Younes confidence is like at the moment but there's probably more of an air of nervousness around Anfield if he's stepping up to take a penalty than maybe certain others, would you agree? 100 per cent, you could feel it as soon as he was walking forward. There was just a sense of, oh no, that's probably not the right option. I mean, I look at van Dijk and his penalty taken and when he takes a penalty, he hits a ball and it stays hit. It's just incredible.

I think you've got van Dijk, you've got Graven Burch still on there, you've got Cody Gacpo on there as well. It's just that, I don't know, it just struck as a psychological thing, slightly odd. Yeah, to be honest with you Mark, I'm not going to say anything about anyone who takes a penalty. I hate to take penalties and all credit to them, but I get what you mean, it's that confidence when you walk it up. I look at Curtis Jones, wasn't at his best in the game, but Curtis is a very confident boy and he felt that he could take that penalty, so it's an eye-t and he felt that he could take that penalty, so this night he hit me hard to the people that do that, it's just one of those situations.

The other thing that you can't take into account is, I'm sat here watching Donnarumma, I'm thinking, wow, look at the size of him, how imposing is he in that goal, where am I going to put this? If he dives the right way, he stands a great chance of getting it. I mean, the guy's a monster. I'm laughing because Dave said to me, when he doesn't do much to intimidate them, does he don a room away when they come up to say the penalty? To which my response was, he's massive. Does he have to do much more? But it was almost a weird look.

He was giving the takers a come-up, he wasn't even bothered. And then, as you mentioned, Steven, as soon as the taker's there, his hands are up and he's making himself look massive. But it was almost a bit nonchalant in the sense of, And then as you mentioned, Stephen, as soon as the taker's there, his hands are up and he's making himself look massive. But it was almost a bit nonchalant in the sense of, I don't care who's coming up here, I'm just going to be in my own zone and then make those big saves. Yeah, but I think the idea behind that is to stand as slim as you can to start with. Ball goes on the spot, now put a doubt in the mind, then you spread yourself, then you

make yourself big and make it awkward and make the goal look smaller. You don't do that whilst they're walking forward because then you just do it when the ball's on the spot and put that doubt in the mind in the last seconds. How do you reflect on Liverpool then over those two legs? I think they'll be disappointed in the first leg the way they went at the game but they came out with an ideal European away leg performance where they pinched the game 1-0. I thought the approach tonight was really impressive in the first 10-15 minutes or so and they scored the goal against the run of place. Paris Saint-Germain, the Liverpool

team, were the intensity, the way they pressed, the opportunities that they created and then Paris Saint-Germain grew into it after scoring the goal. I think Liverpool felt just a bit like, oh, that's the danger, those counterattacks. Second half, I thought Liverpool was superb. I thought the way they dealt with the situation. Jan Mulvey was just down in front of me just then talking, and he just said their substitutions were better,

had a better impact, and that's exactly what you said. And that was the case. I thought that Darwin Unionists didn't have an effect on the game. Curtis Jones was poor when he came in. I thought that Darwin Nunes didn't have an effect on the game, Curtis Jones was poor when he came in. I actually thought Jarel Kwanza was superb when he came into the game. I thought some of the runs he made, some of the interceptions he made, but is he going to change a game in the way that he plays?

Well, he nearly did because he nearly scored, he hit one off the post and he nearly scored one near Pozo. But you need more in attacking areas. Gap Po didn't do much either, did he? He didn't look fit at all, Gap Po struggled to get back into position, recovery runs were poor, it just seemed almost like a bit of a wasted substitution from Liverpool. In a sense, PSG have built their squad out for this competition. You think in Desiree Douay, he's come, you know, two shots on goal, two chances created, but also Zaire Emry, there's two players of unbelievable

quality in central midfield and in the attacking areas, whereas the impact, as we've mentioned there from Liverpool, wasn't as big today. I'll come on to Paris Saint-Germain in a moment and hopefully Gilles Léonard-Larron will join us for the last few minutes. He's in the crowd. He's gone. We've lost him. You can the last few minutes. He's in the crowd. He's gone. We've lost him. You can't count on him.

He's celebrating. The bigger picture for Liverpool is, look, it's not going to affect them as regards the league title, is it, Stephen? But with the Cup final on Sunday, they've gone to extra time, they've gone out, and there are two or three players that they may have injury queries about. Yeah it looks like Trent

Alexander-Arnold will potentially miss that semi-final with that injury. I think Canarte was more cramp if I'm being honest Mark, I think he went down a couple of times in quick succession, he was getting stretched quite a lot in that second period of extra time. Or was it first, sorry. And a little bit lost now, we've done that long. But yeah, I just think that will be fine. But going into that cup final now,

it's how do you approach that? Yes, they've got that opportunity where they've played on a Tuesday, you can get a little bit more rest time and it's all about that recovery now. And it's trying to put a positive spin on it, go win a first bit of silver, we're following up with the Premier League and it's still a great season for Liverpool. I mean, Newcastle have their own issues as well Ian, let's not forget.

Yeah they do, Botman's out, Gordon of course is suspended, so you know... Lewis Hall. Lewis Hall is out for the season as well, but yeah but but Stephen said in the commentary, you know, the fact that Liverpool here have gone to extra time in a penalty shootout, they've picked up injuries, it might just still benefit Newcastle a fraction. But Eddie Howe won't be bothered about that. Eddie Howe will just be concentrating on what Newcastle did. Obviously they were playing last night at West Ham. But for Liverpool, they'll have to dust themselves down because it's only a short turnaround to get back. I mean, GAC post missed the last two before today

with an ankle injury, didn't look fit. When you look at this game and kind of break this one down with Liverpool and how well they defended in that first leg and you think about Nuno Mendes in his performance against Mohamed Salah, that was a big moment in the game in a sense. The player that's been so good this season, Mohamed Salah could have the best season ever in Premier League history. So real credit to how PSG dealt with him over the two legs.

Les Breen, Julien Leroyen, who I'm told is in the Anfield press room, are you really or have you gone to a local pub? No, it's not time for celebration yet. So I'm in where the press conferences are. Just there while nobody's there. I would say you may say it's not time for celebration yet. The Paris Saint-Germain players are still celebrating on the monitor that I've got in front of me.

Yeah, I heard them as well. I was in the kind of the tunnel when they came back into the dressing room. They believed they could do it but there was not really many people who thought they could come here against this Liverpool team and put on a performance again that could be good enough to come back into the tie first of all and then win and qualify from one way or another and this is a very young team, I think the second youngest in the competition. For them to show the character, to score early, then to weather the storm at time, of course

the start of the first half, the start of the second half, but I thought the extra time really summed up how good they've been in those two games and I really believe they deserve to go through over the two games and I really believe that they deserve to go through over the two games. They're in a nightmare half of the draw of Paris Saint-Germain, it could be Villa next, Real Madrid and Arsenal are in this half of the draw as well. But for the club, and we've talked a lot over recent months about the path that Paris Saint-Germain have chosen to go in, for the club and its future how big a win is that? to go in. For the club and its future, how big a win is that? This is huge. This is one of the biggest wins in the history of the club, Chapers, is to almost validate the progression of this team and also this, we've said many times on the

show, but also the new direction the club took by just not signing anymore the Messi's and Neymar's and the Mbappe's, going younger, more cohesion in the team, more that everything we explained before the game. A win like this is huge. It's huge for the confidence. It's huge because you've beaten the best team in Europe. So now you're going to believe you can beat anybody over two games. But it's just massive for what I could do for this team but also for the whole Luis Enrique project really and it's the way they did it too. It's the way they played in the first leg, okay they were unlucky they lost that game. It's the way they came here and the way they played and the way they kept the ball, the chances they created. Yeah it was not perfect but fine.

Liverpool are, as we've been saying, the best team in Europe still tonight. This is not because they lost on penalties tonight that they're not anymore. But for PSG to come here and win, something that no French club has ever done before in all the knockout games in European competitions, is something exceptional. Think over the two legs, Stephen, and I think you probably feel this as well it's difficult to think of a Paris Saint-Germain player that you you don't enjoy watching? Very true yeah I think when you look at the back line and you look at... Pacho's just absolutely fantastic it's just great to watch yeah and the great thing is is that that when we look at centre backs,

and there's a guy on my monitor in front of us now, Virgil van Dijk, you think of stature, you think you've got to be big, you've got to be tall, you've got to be able to win headers. He's an aggressive defender in different ways, but also very good on the ball. But the speed and the agility to to recover into positions, one v one defending, he's outstanding. I love the balance in my field. I think Vettini is just a joy to watch when he's on the ball.

He looks so confident. And João Neves, I mean, 20 years of age. Just the confidence to play with the way that he plays. But no, every player that you look at in Paris Saint-Germain will get into most teams in the Premier League. I mean that's what we've said as well isn't it, Jules, you know they've still spent money, they may have got rid of some of their superstars but you actually can't fault their recruitment at the moment.

No absolutely, certainly not last summer and not in January with Vaz Calhau, okay tonight was maybe not as good as last weekend, last week, sorry, but there's a tackle that he makes, I think, in extra time when the ball is about to go to Mo Salah on the counter attack for Liverpool and almost celebrate like a goal. And this is also what this team is about, but Pacho, you're right, immense.

He was one of the best defenders, centre backs in the Bundesliga last season. So it's not coming from nowhere either. But João Neves, I agree with Warnie. João Neves for me is the one really, because Vitinha is a lovely player, but he's been for a while now. He's a Portugal international.

But for João Neves at that age, to show that maturity, to show that control. And really again in midfield today, he was not as one-sided as he was last week, but then the PhD midfield tonight, first with the Whiz and then I thought Zaire Emrere when he came on he just turned 19 on Saturday was also outstanding. Enjoy your evening Jules. Thank you very much, see you tomorrow. Will you? Dave, just a tiny one on Vettina over the two legs against Liverpool he played 225 passes and he 212. Ridiculous. I also remember the first 25 against Man City at home and the first 25 against Madrid, but

this was unbelievable what we showed in the first 25. And I looked at the scoreboard and we were 1-0 down. Over 90 minutes I don't think we deserved to lose this game of football today. Over 180 minutes maybe it was deserved that we went to overtime. In overtime I thought that the Parisian Jumet was a bit better than us, so in this half hour. And then it comes down to penalties and they scored four and we lost. Last season we weren't involved in the Champions League, two seasons ago we and our main member

Liverpool went out against Madrid. If you have to go out, then go out in a way like we did against one of the best teams in Europe and make such a fight out of it. I hope and think that every fan around the world was hoping that this game just kept on going, just wouldn't stop because it was incredible. In the end won and for us It's so so so unlucky that if you are number one in the league table that you then face Paris Saint-Germain Which is one of the best teams in Europe But yeah, that's the format we are in and we have to accept it and we will come back stronger next season

With Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. The 72 Plus. On the Football Daily. I'm Aaron Paul. And I'm Joby Mackenna. And on Wednesdays on the Football Daily, we bring you 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Life Sport. As we'll get stuck into the latest from the Football League and beyond.

We're pretty well above our weight already. We're a part-time team in a full-time league. Hopefully we can stay in the league and that ASDA. We're in a great position at the moment and long may that continue. That's 72 Plus, the EFL podcast only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox and we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off.

Jupiter versus Saturn! Well, it's very well done that because in the script it does say, wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series, we're discussing history of music music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature shapes so listen wherever you get your podcasts We're at Villa Park for Aston Villa's Champions League game. They have a 3-1 lead from the first leg. John Murray will be there.

Let's deal with the important issue first of all. I know you've been discussing this on your Last of the Summer Wine podcast with Ali and Ian on the Football Daily. Club Bruges or Brugger? Bruges, I'm going with as I have consistently. Because Ali's told you, Ali's said that hasn't he? Well actually in actual fact, in actual fact when I covered them against Manchester City in the league phase I did speak to a local there who, I think we had this conversation on air and I said to him, I went through all

the various pronunciations and at the end he said to me, and of course it's Club Brugge. I said well, in the anglicised form, it is Bruges. If you think back to our youth, Mark, when we watched Liverpool against Bruges in the European Cup final, we weren't calling them Brugge back then, were we? Times change, John, times change. And similarly the feature film starring Colin Farrell, what do we call that? I've absolutely no idea. In Bruges. In Bruges do we call it that? I've no idea what you're talking about, the films are not my area of speciality. Some people wonder what my area of speciality is,

but there we are. But let's bring Andros in on this. I mean Villa will be fine here, won't they negotiating this? I think they will with the two goal buffer, but I think the first leg, Bruges, or Brugger, sorry, John. This is what John does to you Andros, he can tie you in knots. I've messed with your mind there, Andy, I'm sorry. Yeah I think Bruges were the better side in the first leg. They were the side who were taking the game to Villa.

They were very expansive, playing 3-1-6, weren't really turning over the ball, but Aston Villa hit them in the last five, 10 minutes with two goals and probably too much to overcome in the second leg for Bruges. And home advantage has been key, John, to Villa in the Champions League. Oh yeah, I mean it's one of the best nights I've experienced this season, that win against Bayern

Munich, that was something else to be inside Villa Park that night and I think generally actually in all competitions they've only lost two matches at home. However, you know that match that I referred to against Manchester City on that tense final night in the in the league phase for Manchester City. Remember, Bruges were winning 1-0 in that match. So they've beaten Aston Villa this season in the league phase. They've beaten, they've had a 1-0 lead against Manchester City at the Etihad. And I've liked what I've seen from them. They are the Belgian champions. They're quite a nice mix of youth and experience. Their coach, Nicky Hyen, is thought very highly of in Belgium. We might see him somewhere else down the line, I wonder as well, and we might see some of their players as well popping up maybe somewhere

else next season. But Unai Emery today has been saying all of the right things that you'd expect talking about how you know we shouldn't forget that Aston Villa lost a 2-0 lead against Celtic at Villa Park in the league phase although they eventually went on to win he says they have been practicing penalties in the build-up to this time. And he also has options Andros doesn't he? You know with with Emi Martinez back after injury I'm gonna do a Nana back after a month out with the Hampshire injury on top of obviously their transfer window signings in January It's incredible to see that

Squared the villa of a mast over the last few years from where they came back up to the Premier League to now and even still he's Resisting and temptation in most games to start Asensio who's a world-class player who's played for one of the best sides in the world so they've got such an array of talent to choose from. Manchester United have announced a plan to build the biggest stadium in the UK, described as an iconic new 100,000-seater ground close to where Old Trafford currently is. Here is Jim Radcliffe speaking about the project.

The club, Manchester United, would like to announce that we will underpin the government's growth plans with a new stadium. We have one billion people around the world who follow Manchester United and they will all want to visit this stadium. I think it will create enormous value for the north of England and for Manchester and Oxford Economics who have done a study on it reckon that that would be in the region of £7 billion per annum. I think it is the greatest football club in the world, it's certainly the most well known football club in the world and it needs a stadium of that stature I think. The North of England deserves to have a stadium

where England can play football, where we can hold the Champions League final and it should be a stadium that's befitting of Manchester United's stature. Well the 1958 supporters group have described the design as a generic, soulless corporate structure. Dave, as a Manchester United fan? It's interesting, to say the least. Obviously the designs that we've seen today make it look like a little bit like a circus tent. But saying that, you know, the redevelopment of that area would be great for Manchester. The key thing I suppose is the atmosphere. It is super important for the fans

and obviously we've seen Spurs do that really well with their equivalency of the yellow wall that Bressey Dortmund have. And I think that is a super important thing that has to come into the design and the feeling because Old Trafford's been there for over a hundred years and the feeling with the fans is incredible and that's something that I think needs to stick. Okay let's talk to football finance expert Professor Rob Wilson from the University Campus of Football Business. Evening Rob. Hi Mark. I'm really confused here and I don't think I'm the only one.

So last night we play six minutes of an interview with Sir Jim Radcliffe saying the club could have run out of money by Christmas 2025 and less than 24 hours later they announced they'll build a new stadium that's going to cost two billion. Does that add up? Well there's certainly a level of incongruence isn't there with the narrative that was coming out of Manchester United yesterday, some of those startling headlines really that Sir Jim Ratcliffe put forward, many of which we've probably talked about in the past, the financial challenges that they're under, the issues that they're having this season especially

on the field of play, the issues that they might or might not have with regard to European competition and all of those things really add up don't they to poor financial performance because there's that inextricable link between what happens with those 11 players on the field and what happens on the balance sheet and the profit must account off it. What we then need to remember though is that this is an entirely separate project it's about capital infrastructure and whilst Manchester United fans might not want to hear this, the reality is they will probably borrow to some degree to fund that stadium and it was difficult for me really to disagree with a lot of what Sir Jim said in his announcement today because Manchester United has and will continue

to be an iconic football club, they probably need an iconic stadium and it really kind of lends itself to what we saw in the redevelopment of Lord's for instance, the new naming rights for Twickenham, the re-emergence and the redevelopment of Wembley of course all those years ago when we saw that. Manchester United will hope that a new stadium development will yield them tens if not hundreds of millions which will hopefully get their off-field balance sheet position in a much better shape. Although what you would say and we did this on the Monday night club not too long ago is that naming rights particularly in football

is not an exact science really I mean we're told Tottenham have wanted to name their stadium for quite a while that doesn't have naming rights. Everton probably will want to do the same. Whether that gets naming rights, we'll yet to see. It doesn't appear the easiest thing to actually manage to do a deal on. It's not. And there's a level of ambiguity, like you've just pointed out there. Of course, Manchester City currently under investigation for some of their sponsorship

rights, of which one of those is going to be the Etihad naming rights deal that they took out with the Etihad stadium and of course it's not an exact science the likes of Tottenham Hotspur if you think about Chelsea's lack of front of shirt sponsor Everton's potential naming rights deals all of those are inconclusive and unconcluded. I think the difference with Manchester United, and we'll point to what Sir Jim said there, a billion followers. Now, we can argue all night whether that billion is right or wrong or in disarray. But that was one of the first things they put on the video

about a billion followers. I mean, anyhow, sorry. Yeah, they always do. And I think what was interesting with United when they signed the front of shirt sponsor about 18 months or so ago is, I suspect we will see this called the Snapdragon new Trafford and that will probably generate them somewhere in the region of 50 to 60 million a year if our modelling is correct because the reality is Snapdragon have seen a huge uptick in exposure as a consequence of being in partnership with

Manchester United and remember that's against on-field performance, which is probably worse than mediocre. Rob, do you think they would have looked at trying to salvage Old Trafford before going, right, no, we can't do it. We're going to have to build a completely new stadium. Do you think first and foremost, they would have tried to save the iconic Old Trafford? Absolutely do.

I think that would have been almost objective one actually in the context of what they were looking at. I think the reality is, and you know, you'll have been there as many times as I would have been over the last few years. The reality is Old Trafford has not been maintained to the degree to which it should have been. And all of those other stadiums have simply overtaken it.

So you're probably talking about upwards of a billion pounds to do a refurbishment of that stadium and it would simply not have generated the amount of revenues that they will have been projecting in this new stadium but absolutely I think it would have been objective one to redevelop Old Trafford and try and retain that history 150 years I think it is isn't it for them to play in and they've clearly settled on this alternative which is why it's probably so so iconic let's say in the videos that we've seen. Well you may not know whether the answer to this but will they find borrowing easy to build this bearing in mind as you've already said that would then be adding to the debt and I still go back to the point of the club could run out of coins to Jim Radcliffe at

one point the club could have run out of money by December does that I know it's different to an individual but does that make them an attractive proposition to lend money to? I think it makes it more difficult that there is no getting around the fact that their financial performance has been fairly ordinary over the last couple of years. If we look at their revenue line, it is still significant and they've been taking some steps to try and reduce their wage expenditure. Of course, we've heard about the redundancies as well. I think that's about 450 people now. The reality with this is it will be a unique and distinct capital investment project which will attract therefore its own

methodology when it comes to financing. Now Omar Berada was interesting today in his interview because he talked about those that would want to be associated with such an iconic build. Now that says to me, they'll be looking at private equity. It also says to me, they might be looking to raise some valuation through additional shares that they might make available

on the New York Stock Exchange, but he absolutely did not rule out additional borrowing. And I think the people that are likely to lend the sort of sums that Manchester United will require will be looking at the potential rates of return and the payback periods for those loans. And the reality is, you know, a new stadium of a hundred thousand plus naming rights plus all the additional corporate hospitality opportunities sponsorships probably going to generate about 150 million a year to the football club which in other terms is like them winning the Champions League every year. And when they then say and Ratcliffe in that clip quoted the say and Ratcliffe in that clip quoted what this will be worth going forward, that seven billion that he talked about that the United have said, that is to the UK economy as a

whole, not to the football club. That's right and I need to be careful here because colleagues at the Oxford School of Economics have done that study but I was quite startled by the 7.3 billion annual figure that they think that's going to generate because that relies a huge amount on an influx of what we would call new money so that points to sport tourists, people coming from overseas to visit the venue in the associated area. Now I think that's a huge amount to be able to generate in a calendar year. I would have thought the figure would have been closer to one or two billion but we'll have to see that study to justify that but the whole site in itself will be hugely lucrative

to the Manchester economy. Thank you very much Rob, talk to you soon. Professor Rob Wilson, football finance expert from the University campus of football business. You will know Andros from your time in a whole variety of different stages. The priority is getting the atmosphere right, really. Yeah, this is what I was going to say. It's probably a balancing act. Yes, you need the tourists coming from all over the world, but first and foremost, you

need your core fans. You need the atmosphere. Prime example, the game we're doing tonight at Anfield, that will be half the place, is that half the team it is at the moment if it didn't have that core fans creating an amazing atmosphere making it difficult for opposing players to come and play. So I think it's a difficult one, you have to attract new fans but you have to remain loyal to the ones that create the atmosphere. Well it's even how you move your season ticket holders over so I'm seeing it with with friends and family who are Everton fans at the moment and try and position themselves where where they need to be for this

atmosphere or where their mates are it's not an easy thing to do. I remember at Palace we had a section the Homesdale Fanatics, and they were the ones responsible for creating the atmosphere at Selhurst Park. They wanted to move from the corner to behind the goal. Although the club wanted to accommodate them because they wanted a better atmosphere, but they couldn't just say to season ticket holders right now, you've been sitting behind the goal for five, ten years, but now you have to move because we want to create a better atmosphere.

So it created a bit of conflict between the two sets of fans. So yeah, it is a massive balancing act between profits and between creating a good atmosphere. I think that's been one of the issues that Manchester United have had to deal with. Traditionally, the Shretford End was where the atmosphere was, and then as I became a season ticket holder around 18, 19, it became the second tier of that. That's now moved with the TRA,

one of the independent supporters groups, now sit over the tunnel. And the atmosphere is kind of back at Manchester United again. It's almost like an away end at times. But that's slowly being pushed into the middle of the Shretford End and the atmosphere is dropping off a bit. So these things are super important and the fans need to be part of these types of discussions. Thanks to Andross and Statman 72 plus will be the next episode of the Football Day. Football, a game of passion, rivalry and loyalty. But decades ago, beneath the cheers and the

chance lay a different kind of warfare called hooliganism. On a match day, everyone was your enemy, everyone was going to kill you. We'll uncover the brutal, bloody battles where punching below the belt was a way of life. It was just a day of mayhem, just a day you dream of. Join me, Tony Bellew, as we hear from those bruising for a fight in the name of the firms that they belong to. We hated them, we hunted them, we battered them, and nothing got in the way of football.

Something they called the English disease. They were destroying the football club, the game I love. Gangster Presents Hooligans. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hooligans. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox and we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet on... Jupiter vs. Saturn! It's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice.

And also in this series we're discussing history of music, recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts.