Football Daily - Champions League Debrief: PSG through as Arsenal fall short

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

What next for Arsenal after their Champions League exit? And can PSG go all the way in the competition?Mark Chapman, correspondent John Murray and ex-Arsenal defender Matt Upson reflect on Arsenal's defeat in Paris, asking what they need to do to take the next step.We get the French view with journalist Sara Menai who helps identify where things have gone right this season for PSG. And hear from Arsenal's Mikel Arteta who says his team were the better side, despite losing both legs of the tie.TIMECODES 01:00 PSG 2-1 Arsenal 03:30 What Arsenal are missing 15:15 Journalist Sara Menai on PSG's evolution during the tournament 25:50 Mikel Arteta on Arsenal being the better sideCommentaries this week: Thursday 8th May EUROPA LEAGUE: Bodo Glimt v Spurs, live on 5 Live. EUROPA LEAGUE: Manchester United v Athletic Club, live on 5 Sports Extra.Saturday 10th May WOMENS SUPER LEAGUE: Chelsea v Liverpool 1230 KO, live on 5 Sports Extra. PREMIER LEAGUE: Southampton v Manchester City 1500 KO, live on 5 Live. PREMIER LEAGUE: Bournemouth v Aston Villa 1730 KO, live on 5 Live.Sunday 11th May PREMIER LEAGUE: Nottingham Forest v Leicester 1415 KO, live on 5 Live. PREMIER LEAGUE: Manchester United v West Ham 1415 KO, live on 5 Sports Extra. PREMIER LEAGUE: Spurs v Crystal Palace 1415 KO, live on BBC Sport Website and App. PREMIER LEAGUE: Liverpool v Arsenal 1630 KO, live on 5 Live.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. On the Football Daily Podcast, the Champions League debrief. With Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. So in the French capital tonight, it's finished Paris Saint-Germain 2, Arsenal 1 on the night, 3-1 on aggregate. Paris Saint-Germain through to play into Milan in the final in Munich at the end of May. Former Arsenal defender Matt Upson and John Moriart correspondent still in the Parc des Prances. Sum that up for us then John. Well I would sum it up by saying Paris Saint-Germain were worthy winners. Arsenal were beaten by the better team over the two legs who remember after

beating Manchester City here in the league phase have done the English treble haven't they knocking Arsenal were beaten by the better team over the two legs, who remember after beating Manchester City here in the league phase have done the English treble, haven't they? Knocking out Liverpool, Aston Villa and Arsenal in the round of 16 quarterfinal and semi-final. Tonight I think the key phase of this match was that opening 20 minutes when Arsenal were very good but they couldn't find one of the magic moments that Michael Arteta was calling for. In fact, it was that man again, goalkeeper Donnarumma, who produced the magic, the saves to keep Arsenal out, most notably from Martinelli and from Odegaard,

a brilliant save that. And the opening goal came at the other end from a free kick, which was headed out by Patti and brilliantly finished by Fabien Ruiz. They doubled their lead in the second half through Hakimi. Looked as though they'd get a third goal as well when a penalty was given rather harshly against Lewis Skelly but Raya made the save to keep it at the time 1-0 made the save from Vitiniya. There was hope at the end, a little bit of chaos. Saka was able to get Arsenal on the score sheet and then missed a big chance as well.

An open goal that he couldn't put under the crossbar. Instead, he blazed it over the top. And I think well before the final whistle went, I think everyone here in Paris in the Parc des Princes was able to celebrate and enjoy the moment as Paris Saint-Germain took their place in a second Champions League final, but ultimately disappointment again. They've lost all four two-legged

semi-finals that they've played under Michel Arteta and two of those semi-finals this season. Nearly, nearly, but not quite. Well, nearly, nearly, but not quite, Matt Upson. Is that... That's more than just tonight isn't it? Yeah I mean tonight isn't going any you know towards any lengths of dispelling that kind of thought process that that is Arsenal at the moment and you know the stats that John just said there would indicate that they are nearly getting there, but not quite.

I'm not sure if it's possible to kind of get there with not having a recognized centre forward, certainly with Haberts and Jesus out, but neither of those two players are maybe the answer for Arsenal kicking on to the next level in terms of scoring goals. And that's what they need. I mean, they had so many kind of good moments, got good positions, balls into the box, all these things that are happening. But that instinctive goal scoring feeling just isn't quite in the squad. And you look at great Arsenal teams in the past, they've had those in the team. And Arsenal have been struggling with that for quite a while now. So is that more than just having an out and out strike? had those in the team and Arsenal have been struggling with that for quite a while now.

So is that more than just having an out and out striker? Because there are two things there that you mentioned. One, having the striker, but also goal scoring instincts. And that's not just about one person in one position. That's a team. Yeah, I think you can spread that across the team, but the goal scorer is the goal scorer, isn't it? It's a player that has that kind of sniff in the box where you just pick up that right place or you're on the loose ball.

And it gets you out of trouble, Chappers. I find that Arsenal have to work and play, work really hard and play really well to get their reward all the time. Whereas as we know, sometimes you're going to have moments where you're not going to play that well, but you still need to win the game. And I don't think they, they quite have that balance and are able to win those matches without playing too well.

They have to be at their best and very secure, solid defensively, play good football but you can't produce that all the time. But then we're looking at, aren't we, Rice and Martinelli and Saka and Erdogan and look I'm not sure Erdogan could have done anything at all about Donnarum as saving the first half which was astonishing. But I'm looking at them in a group and people might think it utterly bizarre that I mentioned Brentford here But on Sunday night on match of the day two we had the start there Brentford are the first team in the Premier League this season To have three players who scored ten or more goals in Mbemho and Whissa and Kevin Sharder. Yeah now

That's what you need, isn't it? I mean people then say well Brentford aren't gonna win anything I know that but at the next level you need that even more don't you? I mean, people then say, well, Brentford, I'm going to win it. I know that. But at the next level, you need that even more, don't you? Of course you do. Of course you do. I mean, Martinelli doesn't score anywhere near enough goals in that position. Martin Odegaard hasn't scored as many goals as what he has done previously from midfield.

Saka was out injured for a while with an ankle, while you then got a center forward that's not prolific in front of goal. Habert's weighs in with a few and what have you, but he's not going to, you know, be banging goals in. So all of a sudden you're down in two or three areas and then you're really in trouble. What I will say tonight is that while it will be looked upon badly on Arsenal, for the reasons we've mentioned, I've just seen on the big screen here the save from Donnarumma from Sackers left foot curler.

I mean, that was just a brilliant save as well. The Odegaard one, and then the Sackers miss, where he should just be able to just side for that, and to create a really uncomfortable last 10 minutes in this stadium for PSG. So there's three big chances there that you look at and go well, you know, it could have gone a different way. It maybe wasn't as far off from Arsenal to go through this game, even though they've lost, you know, pretty handsomely at 3-1. The margins were

maybe a little bit tighter than what we're giving them credit for. It was more that first 20 minutes, it was that period. When they were very good, they got everything right, they got the approach spot on in that first 20 minutes and I think more it's that period of time where you would be looking for the individual, the natural goalscorer of the centre forward to make the difference. But then equally John, when they pulled one back all of a sudden they looked more dangerous again. Yeah but it was a different kind of game then. I think it was more that period and you know PSG were under pressure. They were worried in that first 20 minutes because that was constant Arsenal pressure and I feel feel it was that period, if Arsenal had been able to step it up,

you're looking there at a potentially great night for Arsenal. The latter part of the match, as we said at the time, was more chaos. Yeah, but I think that PSG had their ups and downs in the game, and I think that that moment as well, they'd gone three up and just thought they'd won for a minute and stopped doing that extra 5%. I mean, Donnarumma came steaming out of his goal and Kavaric Scalia was right up on the halfway line and he was losing his head with him for not working hard enough and Kavaric Scalia did a brilliant defensive job all game. I thought he worked his socks off and made so many blocks in the first half,

but he switched off for a couple of minutes, Chappappers and Donnarumma's out there on him. Now that to me is a sign of a world-class team. When you've got players on the pitch that are demanding that of their own players for every second of the game that's a team that's going to be successful. Do you think then given the saves that Donnarumma has made given the chance that Saka put over the bar. Do you think the coming days in the inquest that there will be around Arsenal is unfair if you were to base it purely on tonight? But do you then think it is fair because there is a there is a bigger picture here, four defeats in four in two-legged semifinals for Mikhail Arteta, fifth season in a row without a major trophy.

So you're trying to balance up the two things, aren't you? Yeah, I mean, naturally you're going to dive into the fine detail as to why you're not just going that final step. And, you know, there's so many positives about what Michael Arteta has done with this Arsenal team, and they're a very good side. There's so many positives about what Mikel Arteta has done with this Arsenal team and they're a very good side.

And I think that, you know, for them to go the next step, it is defined detail, but for me there's one glaring thing and it's, I think it's that position that we're always talking about and having a player that is out and out going to play in that role and produce those kinds of goals. And then I think other players will benefit from that as well, because it's another threat. So Saka will get more space. Martinelli might get more space.

And it just has a knock-on effect to the team when you have a front three. I look at the Paris front three, and when they break away, they've just got a feeling that they're always going to put the ball in the back of the net. And I think that Arsenal don't quite have that level at the moment. But he's been in charge for five and a half years now and let's not forget it is his first

job. He's done a great job. And he has and a lot of money has been spent. It's in excess of 700 million pounds and what they do this summer and I know that Victor Llokerez is being mentioned as a prime candidate for Arsenal but that what's happened now the two semi-final defeats the fact that they might not finish in the uh in the runners-up again in the Premier League this season they've got a tough finish to the season although that final match away at Southampton that should be enough for them to make sure that they are in the Champions League next season but you know that will be the that will be the narrative how they do in those

matches Liverpool away on Sunday then at home to Newcastle those are the next two Premier League matches so where they finish in the Premier League you know coupled with the semi-final defeat and the business that they do in the summer but it means that the pressure will be on at the start of next season. Do you think two years ago Arsenal flew more at teams a bit like Paris Saint-Germain did tonight? I think that Arsenal, every time I used to go and see them at home especially, they would start in the opening 15 minutes and they would fly at teams.

They would go right at them and I think they were having more joy in those wide areas. I think Saka has obviously been out a long time with his injury, his comeback, I think he's hit moments of that form. Tonight really found it tough, understandably, because I think their left side is just unbelievably strong and it was very difficult, but he still managed to have an impact on the game. Sacher gets his goal. He should score another. He had a great save from Donnarumma.

And I'd say that Sacher might not be quite at his very best at this moment in time, but he's not far off. So he's having great impact. I think Martinelli does so much good work from that far side, and he does fly at players in the game. But the end product numbers aren't quite there, Chappers, and I think you've got to have that balance across that

front three and at the moment for me it's only Saka that regularly produces those kind of numbers and the other two roles is not quite up there. I'll tell you what as well, John, the stats sort of back all of this up really, I've just got them in front of me now, 54% possession for Arsenal this evening they had 19 total shots compared to Paris Saint-Germain's 11 and yet only four of those were on target and probably doesn't have this as an added stat but probably at least three of them saw world-class saves yeah well certainly three of them yeah from, from Martinelli, Odegaard and Saka. And the other thing with Donnarumma as well, Matt, we'll get bringing in Sarah Manai in a minute,

French football journalist, but the other thing with Donnarumma is the save from Odegaard was low down to his left and the save from Saka was high up to his right. Yeah, I know, he's just producing brilliant saves and I looked at both of them and it's weird because since Paul Robinson said that before the game, I keep checking where he's starting position his jabbers. I can't stop looking where he's placing himself. Why did he, why was he able to save that? Where was he? How close was he to the line? And I think he's, you know, all those little details, he's figured it out how he needs to do it. And while he isn't the most pleasing on the eye, and there's a lot of people that might not rate him,

and there's mistakes and this, that, and the other, he's a great fit for this football club because he can get away with those little, you know, the mistakes that might cost in Ligue 1, and they can still romp it. But then he can play in matches like this and in the Euros final and have a massive impact on the game and

become man of the match so it's a great goalkeeper for PSG to have. I went to the PSG campus yesterday when they were doing their talking before the match and Hakimi was the player who was speaking to us and he was saying about Donnarumma, he was saying a couple of things that I wouldn't necessarily have expected about him he said Donnarnaroma brings serenity to the dressing room. And also, he said in the dressing room, he's also really light-hearted. So he sounds as though he's a bit of a joker in the dressing room. Serenity?

Serenity, which I wouldn't necessarily have expected. You do tend to make quick judgments on people, don't you, John? You see? I'm very open-minded. I'm very, always been known for minded. I'm very known for it. I'm very known for it. Les Frick, go on. I was just going to say as well with Luis Enrique yesterday,

I was interested to know whether he found a point in this season where it all clicked for them, because we felt that we were here for that match against Paris Saint-Germain, against Manchester City in January. But he said, and I can't doubt him, but he said that right at the start, he knew that he had the right group of players here. And obviously he's added people like Karavitskelia. It was obviously, that was a significant move

for them in January. But he felt that he already had the components really that were going to become the team that he has now towards the end of this second season. Thursdays on the Football Daily join the Euroleague's team as we bring you the latest from across the continent with a host of top European football journalists. It's OK to be able to play the ball but you need to actually fight for the ball as well. That's what he wants of his players.

I think that maybe it would be the club that could revive his self-esteem and his confidence and I think it could do wonders for the player to really grow. The EuroLeague's only on Football Daily, listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily podcast, the Champions League debrief with Mark Chapman, listen on BBC Sounds. Let's bring in Sarah Manai, French football journalist. Evening Sarah. Good evening Mark. When do you think they clicked? I mean, Luis Enrique says he always felt since the start of the season that he had the players, but there is no doubt they stumbled

through the early stages. They have, they have indeed. And I think, you know, if you looked at how things have changed, the progress that was made between the first Champions League game of the season for PIG. There was Girona back in September and this game tonight, it's a world apart really. They made so much progress. I think Luis Henrique really found a balance in this team. He found his group

of players which he can rely on. We were talking about Karol Ratz-Kellier. Of course, I was a big asset during the season, but something clicked. Dembele is a complete different, he's a whole different player. He's putting in some really good performances. There are a lot of players like that, Desiree Douay as well. Something definitely clicked about a few months ago I'd say, mid-season, something really changed because I think no one in Paris tonight could have said back in September that this team will play would play that well and would qualify for the Champions League finals there was a lot of uncertainty and I think he is the man Luis Henrique who really changed things and really adapted

to his players and that's thanks to him tonight if they're you know qualified in that final. I mean the other side of of it, I suppose, Matt, is if what John says about Luis O'Reilly thinking he always had the components. I mean, you actually look at each. We've done Donnarumma. But then if you look at each unit, you look at the back four, you look at the midfield three, you look at the attacking three or four, depending on which of the three or four

are playing, they're all balanced. Yeah, no, I agree. And he's struck the perfect balance, to be honest, in the team. And it's got an imprint of him, his intensity, his work rate, the togetherness, the way they're fighting for each other. It's all the hallmarks of a team that's going to be really, really successful. And I don't doubt what John said, that he noticed these things in their characteristics because it's been around them day in, day out, all the way through. I don't doubt that he noticed them early,

but that second 45 minutes here against Manchester City, where me and John were here, I think for them to walk off the pitch having just dominated that second half in the manner that they did, that must have been a point where they came away from the European football matches and went, wow, we can actually go on and win this. Since then, they've just played like a team that really believes that. Yes, I totally agree because you know when he brought Mark, Louis Henry, he brought this team spirit that PSG was lacking and missing for many, many years. They've tried everything. They have invested, we all know, an incredible amount of money with

their enormous budget in recruitment, performance enhancement tours. They have this big staff surrounding the team. And what he brought when he arrived was this very team spirit. He manages Luis Enrique to take the best out of each player. That's how you get those good individual performances. It is thanks to him, really, because if you see throughout the years what PSG have tried, they've tried the stars, they've tried Messi, they've tried Mbappe, they've tried everything. And he seems to be the man of the situation in the end, it's Luis Henrique because it's a team today that

is three of its stars because we spoke about Donald Rumer, there are not many many stars in that team apart from him really and maybe Marquinhos, you know it's a young bunch of players and they, he brought this cohesion on the pitch I think, Luis Henrique, there's more harmony in the dressing room yeah. But you watch them tonight sorry you watch them at Anfield you watch them when they played Manchester City you watch them when they went away to Stuttgart to seal their qualification the one thing you can't actually deny now is their spirit I mean they spent the last half hour tonight chest bumping each other with every clearance and

gesture into their fans. The switch around from the messy Neymar and Bappe era is phenomenal. It is phenomenal and you know they didn't have everything under control tonight because you were talking about the possession stats and shots and Arsenal played a good game. It would have been a very different story if Declan Rice had scored that goal earlier in the game. It would have been very different. It would have been different if Donnar Rumer would have been injured. A lot of things could have been different.

They had the second half in hand, but the first one, everything could have happened. But what changed? And now you see it's the spirit, it's the way they play for each other it's the way for those players it was the most important night of their lives which I don't feel with Mbappe or Messi they really felt that they didn't really you know they were playing for themselves really and and this team this PSG team this it feels like there's something very different and I think that is really thanks to Luis Enrique this cohesion this harmony they radiate confidence and serenity. I mean even the atmosphere

around the team is very positive. If you speak to people in Paris or close to PSG and they would tell you how the atmosphere has changed and there is a belief that this year could be the one for them but even before this Arsenal game, even you know before Aston Villa, there is a belief that you know it's never going to be an easy path because you know we all know that if you want to win the Champions League it's never going to be easy but this team just radiates confidence and I think he really brought that because with the stars, with Messi, with Mbappe, you could feel that if things were not going in the way they wanted to, they used to panic. Tonight, even when Arsenal was playing really well, especially in the first half, they were very confident and calm. That is the thing that really changed for me at PSG over the years. The interesting thing for me that you're talking

about there, Sara, is the one great thing and why football's so fantastic and team sports are is that what you're talking about there, you can't buy. So it's not something you can't buy off the shelf. It has to be delivered and administered by the culture and the coach and that message that he's getting across all the time and I agree the speed in which this is turned is incredible because you've got young players that are absorbing all of this mentality and understanding of what that edge is from the head coach I think that that's a brilliant thing about it. And to throw something else in and you said it during commentary Matt and it's difficult to disagree with that

Paris Saint-Germain's left side is the best in world football? Yeah I believe so. I don't see a better left side than what they have. I mean Mendes is out of this world. I think you could probably just ask Pekai Osaka what it's like playing against those two doubling up on each other. It was incredibly difficult. His confidence, his pace when they go full with the ball.'re just brilliant to watch I really enjoy watching their left side. Sara's kind of mentioned how Luis Enrique's changed so much at Paris Saint-Germain and we've talked a lot about Paris Saint-Germain during this Champions League campaign it's interesting isn't it John because you know you normally talk

about someone being the head coach of Paris Saint-Germain or the manager of Paris Saint-Germain and the perception is with the money they've got and legal and well anybody could do that, anybody could do that and they'd be fine. He is, I wouldn't necessarily say one of the most underrated but he's probably one of the more underappreciated head coaches at the elite end of European football isn't he? Yeah and I think you know he's kind of come in and done it his way and you know having seen him up close quite a lot now this season in the in the times that we've covered them you

know he's a very interesting man to watch do in the in the public eye and the way that he goes about his business and I'd be fairly confident that he came in here with some big demands and that you know he knows that the big personalities I mentioned them all during the course of the commentary. They've had some of the best managers in Europe here with the ultimate goal of winning the Champions League but you know, there's probably a little bit of fortune in there as well because they've tried so many different

ways as we've said with some of the big stars and the big names that hasn't worked and you know so that probably meant that he had more power to do it his way. Saira, I'm going to let you go. Thank you very much for being with us. Saira Manai, French football journalist on Five Life Sport this evening. And Matt, we have a final between, this expands it slightly, Luis Enrique and Simone Inzaghi, two probably underappreciated head coaches in Europe, outside their own circle.

Yeah, no, I agree. And you know, what Inzaghi's done there at Inter, I just find fascinating the way that they play, how they go about having been there this season once to watch Arsenal play there. It was just what they appreciate there for what the players do is very unique and different to what most clubs like and they're happy doing it.

And they've now put that together with some good attacking players, they're scoring some really good goals. That's going to be a tough nut to crack, I have to say. So we've got the first France-Italy Champions League final since Marseille won it. So the only French team to have won it. That was back in 1993. Really? From Marseille won it so the only French team to have won it that was back in ninety three when Beat Milan won the in Munich so and I think With inter, you know, we were struck by it last night that there is this reliance on you know This is a young team Paris Saint-Germain and there are so many you know this is a young team Paris Saint-Germain and there are so many 30-somethings in that inter-team. Henryk Mkhitaryan must be looking at Jean Neves' side thinking, oh god, this could be

a difficult 90 minutes ahead. But I've got Mkhitaryan at 36, Darmian 35, Eczerbi 37, Sommer 36, Terremis 32, Arnautovic is still there at 36 and De Vrij at 33. They're all important members of that squad. Let's get some reaction now from Mikhail Arteta. First of all, congratulate PSG for being in the final. Talking about merits, I think we deserve much more. When you analyse both games, who has been the best player, the MVP, has been the same player, the MVP has been the same

player, the goalkeeper. And the Champions League is decided in the boxes and he's won the game for them because obviously today after 20 minutes and what happened in London as well, the result should have been very different. So I can take a lot of positives and I'm very proud of the team. You have to arrive in the competition at this stage with your full squad, full available, in best condition. We haven't got that. So let's put that aside. The team I've seen today against, probably one of the best or not the best team in Europe,

it gives me so much pride. But at the same time I'm so upset, so annoyed that we didn't manage to do it. Two things that are on us, probably not together. Another thing is that obviously the opponent at this level has the quality to deliver. Don Aroma is on today again. You have the best example in the other dressing room, Marquinhos. Eleven times he's right in this club. Hasn't won it. Eleven times. He's the captain captain so that's the 12th and let's see if they win it so 11 times you have to go down and up so look in the mirror somebody like this with that trajectory and learn you want to be in the sport and you want to be competing and be very close to the

trophies you better be able to deal with that and just a final one for you both. For a neutral, I'm struggling to think of a better Champions League season than the one that we've had at the end of these semi-finals. What? Matt's looking at me because Matt knows and you know as well that I do have my doubts about this format and I think it has been good, don't get me wrong. Still? format and I think it has been good you know I don't get me wrong still I've enjoyed the variety to it I still struggle with the what I see is the unfairness of the group stage I think that's an issue and I think we will get to a point where we will be saying why are there so many matches in the group stage I think we will come to that point but for something new and for something fresh I do you know I've enjoyed it this season. Well if he's got the Murray seal of approval then... I wouldn't go that far.

It's a grudging seal of approval Matt I would suggest. But he's been entertaining. That was all my point was really. It has been entertaining. I've loved it. But the knockout stages have always been entertaining. Okay. Thank you very much to both of you. Inter against Paris Saint-Germain then in Munich, Saturday May 31st.

You will hear it with us live here on Five Live Sport. On the Football Daily Podcast, the Champions League debrief. With Mark Chapman listen on BBC sounds it's the scandal the rocked rugby union to its core the so-called a blood gate scandal it seems so clear that this wasn't real blood it's out and out cheating this is a story of lies and deception, conspiracies and cover-ups. There was terror that it could tear the house down. Courtroom drama and secret deals.

So obviously a lie. And a human cost that changed lives and careers forever. Dean Richards is found guilty and banned for three years. I'm Ross Kemp and this is Sports Strangers Crimes, Bloodgate. Listen on BBC Sounds.