Football Daily - Champions League debrief: Villa are out as fightback falls short

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

The quarter-finals of the Champions League second legs did not disappoint with drama, tension and a load of goals at Villa Park. Unai Emery’s side scored more on the night, but the dream is over as PSG had done enough to go through to the semi-finals with a 5-4 win on aggregate. Kelly Cates is joined by former Villa players Dion Dublin and Stephen Warnock – who both praised the performance of Marcus Rashford and were equally baffled by the fact he was subbed off. Correspondent John Murray and Statman Dave join the pod and look at what's next for the club.A very happy Julien Laurens comes on to give his expert view on PSG and how they came very close to being knocked out of the competition.The pod heads to Spain where Ian Dennis and Matt Upson have been inside the Arsenal camp ahead of their game against Real Madrid – Mikel Arteta and Jude Bellingham both make cameo appearances on this episode too.And Jules gives his predictions on how Kylian Mbappe will fare against Arsenal on Wednesday night. Timecodes: 01:00 – Aston Villa analysis. 14:12 – PSG section 26:26 - Arsenal preview. 28:29 - Mikel Arteta interview 32:40 – Jude Bellingham interview. 35:20 – Real Madrid and Mbappe section. European football Commentaries this week: Wednesday 16th April CHAMPIONS LEAGUE: Real Madrid v Arsenal – KO 2000 on 5 live. Thursday 17th April EUROPA LEAGUE: Manchester United v Lyon – KO 2000 on 5 live.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. On the Football Daily Podcasts, the Champions League debrief with Kelly Kitts. Listen on BBC Sounds. So far the quarterfinals of the Champions League have provided drama, excitement, tension and goals galore. Aston Villa are out after they were beaten 5-4 on aggregate by Paris Saint-Germain an absolutely crazy game will be there very shortly we will also be in Spain with Ian Dennis and Matt Upson they've been inside the Arsenal camp ahead of Mikel Arteta side game against Real Madrid

Arsenal of course have that 3-0 advantage going into the second leg Mikel Arteta and Jude Bellingham will be on the pod in just a bit and the big stars just keep coming on the Football Daily. Correspondent John Murray and former Aston Villa striker Dion Dublin are at Villa Park. Also with us Aston Villa defender Stephen Warnock and stat man Dave. John what an extraordinary game at Villa Park. Yeah quite the second half for Villa who had the French champions worried but Unai Emery's team in the end fell a goal short of drawing level in the tie. What a contrast it was to the first half hour when Villa

left themselves wide open for PSG to stretch their aggregate lead to 5-1. The two full backs Hakemi and Nuno Mendes the goal scorers and at that stage Villa needed an unlikely four goals without reply just to take it to extra time but they nearly did it. Kielermann's got one back before the break then McGinn and Konza went bang bang with two goals in three minutes just short of the hour. Villa Park went lift off but PSG goalkeeper Donnarumma kept his head, his excellent saves from Rashford, Keelermans and Asensio kept the PSG noses in front and just as we thought that third goal in added time at the Parc des Princes from Nuno Mendes was all important. It was an incredible game Dion, in the end Villa fell just short but a lot to be proud of in that performance. Yeah they were good tonight they really were it's um it's just the

final third they were just making some wrong decisions early on in the game where they just wanted to find that perfect pass or that perfect strike where I mean John McGinn set the world alight with that deflected strike and if you don't shoot you don't score. So I just believe that he set them on their way in regards maybe, maybe we can do this if we just take a chance and then they started to believe they're on the front foot and that's when the fans got involved, the 12th man and they nearly got over the line, just needed a bit more energy, a bit more urgency and a bit more correct decision-making.

Stephen Warnock is with us, Statman Davis is with us as well. Stephen, Esri Konza was telling TV at half-time we had nothing to lose so we wanted to go out there and prove a point and it did feel that way in terms of that second half performance, almost as though not quite the pressure was off but exactly that, exactly what Konza said, there was nothing for Villa to lose from going full out attack. Yeah, I understand what he means by the answer, but there is a lot to lose because you can get a lot of embarrassment. I mean, PSG could have won that 6-7-1 in the second half if you don't do things right, but you've got to go out there with a game plan, how to press, when to press, how to do things. I just think that looking back at the game, whether I don't know what Unai Emery saw, but the way Marcus Rashford was playing, I think he got it wrong. He was brilliant. When he went on that little run and he had the shot and Donnarumma made

the first of his three brilliant saves, you see Marcus Rashford sprint for the ball, then he goes on the run off the corner, sets the goal up and it was like a completely different player. He was involved in everything and everything that was good was coming through him and the pressing and the running and when it was it's not a slight on the Ollie Watkins because he wasn't really given the ammunition but it just felt like the tempo dropped when they made that substitution. I'd have loved to have seen it, we spoke about it before the game that Eder played both of them up together. You need a goal, why are you taking a striker off or someone who's

going to create something? I just thought he got that wrong in the end. I think that was the perfect time to have them up top wasn't it Steven, the last 15 minutes leaving both up top, stick it into the corners and just keep it simple. It's exactly what you want so if you if you want to pin Parasangeman back you play almost Rashford and Watkins alongside in between the full back and centre halves and you stretch them balls over the top you're now forcing Parasangeman back then Essencio starts to pick up the ball or Ramsey, whoever it might be that you've decided to keep on the pitch. And it just felt like Paris Saint-Germain just took the sting out the game. They just took control in possession and that was a little bit

of an error. I think when you look at the statistics as well against PSG, Marcus Rashford created the most chances on the pitch, completed the most dribbles, the most big chances and of course got that big assist. He's been directly involved in five goals against PSG in the Champions League, two more than he's managed against any other side in the competition. I agree with the guys,

should have stayed on, it would have been an exciting finish. Well, what do you think that Emery was trying to do then? Because he's not taking him off because he thought Marcus Rashford is having a great game here, but I think I'll put an end to that. He's obviously decided to do it for a reason. What do you think he

was trying to fix to make better at that stage of the game? I think it was probably that he thought he might have gassed out, but then it's whether he doesn't want to break the system and he feels like, like we saw at the weekend, Watkins is a little bit different in the way that he plays. Maybe he thought that if something is to fall into the path of any player, he'd like it to be Ollie Watkins, but I'm not so sure. I think it'd be interesting to hear his thoughts on what he thought on changing it,

whether he thought Asensio coming in with Ollie Watkins off the bench would just change the dynamic and make Paris Saint-Germain think a little bit differently. But I don't think you need to make them think differently. I think they were struggling to deal with exactly what Aston Villa were doing and the pressure that they were putting on them. I believe that if Marcus had stayed on, I mean, he didn't score, but he just, the energy levels that he had, he was making those defenders make mistakes. And when he was squeezing the two defenders, the two fullbacks or the two forward thinking wide men that Villa had on at the time were following him in

so they had no ball out so that has kind of gone when Oli came on because they weren't in behind Oli they were getting tied leave them both up top occupy the two defenders one of the full backs has to stay back as well to make it a three on two and I believe Villa could have got something if they had those two strikers on the pitch. I Mean we're saying this and we're looking at the the where Villa fell short in this game But they've gone into this one with a 3-1 deficit against one of the best sides in in Europe They've gone 2-0 down at half time in the game and they've scored three goals in less than 15 minutes in there in the second

Half, it's not doom and gloom here. This will be the kind of the immediate emotion on the final whistle for the players. But when the dust settles, they'll look at the positives from this performance, won't they? They will, but because we've seen a little inkling of what they could do and how sharp they could be, you always want that little bit more. Yes, they were outstanding, they did great to get back into the tie, however, I believe there was a little bit more that Villa could have done if they'd have gone too up top. That's a big thing, Kelly, I know it's hindsight, I understand that, but those two defenders

wouldn't have wanted to play against those two centre forwards, guaranteed. I also, I feel like I'm sort of banging the Villa drum on my own here as well. Keep banging, keep banging. I was, yeah, well it's important to kind of, to kind of look at it from the other side as well, which is that Don Aroma had a shout for being player of the match in this game. Yeah, I mean, the saves that he made, I mean, the one from Marcus Rashford was just outstanding, it was nestling in the top corner I think there's one from pal Torres as well as pal Torres spins on his on his left foot

And he's at the near post he goes from the far post to the near post and stops that one point-blank He would have hit him straight in the face But he puts his hands there and bounces that one away saves one with his legs as well So yeah Listen when you get this far you need your keeper on the odd occasion To do what is paid to do and stop the ball going in the back of the net. He did it three times tonight when it could have been certain goals. Dave, how did the game play out in statistical terms?

What was the kind of balance of it and how did that swing? I think it really swung in that second half as we kind of all saw. I mentioned in that first half how Marquinhos and William Pachau were so dominant at the back and then from that point you look at someone like Marquinhos in the first half, real complete performance in the second half, two errors directly leading to shots, of course those long balls they didn't deal with. So that was a big thing but it all started to change after John McGinn, the momentum changed for Aston Villa, more shots on goal, more chances and that Asensio chance that

Dion's talking about had an extra of 0.51. That is a really, really big opportunity that Villa had to take to maybe push the game to extra time. But overall, I think Villa deserve a lot of credit in terms of injury conso, won 100% of his tackles, 100% of his aerial duels. Matty Cash against Kravatskaya later as well. Yes, we saw some really good moves and moments from there, but he won five out of five his tackles versus the Georgian winger so there's definitely positive to build on but you've got to finish things off talking about PSG and they've scored 30 goals in the Champions League season which is the most of any French side. They are one of the best teams in the tournament so the ability to push them this

far is really really impressive. John McGinn's been talking to TV and talked about the disappointment but being proud of the club and the way they came back against what he calls one of the best teams in the world. At half time Unai Emery had said he was proud of the performance, he thinks every Villa supporter will leave with a huge sense of pride knowing that Villa gave everything and he was effusive in his praise for his manager. He said Emery has transformed the club, he's a world class manager, he's very demanding, he wants more. We want these nights to be normal again for Aston Villa. We've got the right guy for that. Not many teams will come back against PSG like that. He said, I've never played personally against Real Madrid or Barcelona, but PSG are the best team that I've faced. I'm getting old, he said,

because he's 30. He said, I wouldn't like to play against them every week. Look, I think that pretty much Dion sums it up, but it also throws it forward to next season and to future seasons in terms of Villa becoming a side that challenges regularly in the Champions League. And now they have to focus on qualifying for next season's competition. Yeah, getting old in footballers terms as well, Kelly, we should point out shouldn't we, Theon? Yeah, I've had nine years left at 30, come on John, pull your finger out. But I don't know about you, I think that they've had such a taste, haven't they, this season, Villa?

So if you're going to use this, then it's there to be used, isn't it, when there are just two points, I think, behind Manchester City right now, with City in fifth place in the table? I think what John's talking about is when you play against teams like PSG and they're playing this kind of football with that kind of energy and organisation and quality they have, it makes you bring the best out of yourself. And I think John's absolutely spot on if you can play against players like this and get a reaction from your team like Villa did tonight, then you are going to see the best version of John McGinn and he wants to do that, he wants to play against the best. They are probably the best club side around with Liverpool at this

present time and I believe that Villa did amazing tonight. They will look back at it, they will look back at it and think, oh what, if we'd have done'd have done that maybe if we'd have done that but you're gonna do that could win the FA Cup this season? Dion will be there won't we a week on Saturday? Yes we will sir. Crystal Palace semi-final and if Villa won the FA Cup this season how big would that be? It'd be amazing it'd be absolutely amazing I'm just hoping you know a nice little restaurant next door to Wembley somewhere. Like the little bistro next to the Parc des Princes, is that what you're talking about? Not quite the Parc des Princes. Beautiful though it is of course. But Stephen, even looking further ahead than this season for Villa, it is about competing

regularly at this level. That's what John McGinn is talking about, building for the future. Does it feel as though Villa have that solid base, that this isn't just a one-off season, that this is part of progress for them? It's huge progress but when we spoke before the game we were talking about the infrastructure at Aston Villa and what the ownership is like. Hugely ambitious, hugely wealthy. PSR will probably slow them down and attracts a little bit to where they actually want to be. They'd quite like to accelerate that as much as possible, but training grounds incredible.

The grounds improving all the time. I think what was evident tonight and what was showcased for anyone watching the game was the quality, the passion of the crowd and how they get behind the team and what a magnificent place it is to play. But the other side of it is, if your phone goes and you're a player anywhere in the world and Unai Emery is on the other end of that phone, you're thinking, yes, I'd like to play

for you. I'd like to play for whoever you manage. And luckily for Aston Villa, that is Aston Villa. So that is a huge quality to be able to have. They are a huge team, they're a massive football club and you realise it more when you actually play for them. Me and Dejan have had the privilege of doing that so we realise how well followed they are, how passionate they are. It's a start of something special but that's been ever since Unai Emery came into the club so that's been what, two years now? I tell you what I think they also have is a feeling of stability

and I think you know they've got they've got the structure sorted out haven't they and you know that people might be surprised that's a relatively rare feeling isn't it at a football club and so I think that's quite a I think that's a strong card that they've got there. Yeah it's not just the pop of a champagne cork this season, it might just be the laying down of the bottles for seasons of success potentially to come for Aston Villa. We found one person who'll be absolutely delighted that Marcus Rashford came off when he did. Julian Laron joins us, French football expert from Five Lives EuroLeaks podcast. Arran, Jules, could you believe that he was coming off?

I was delighted when I saw his number coming off on the board. I won't lie, Kels, and I just didn't really understand it. I didn't think it made sense. I even, when I saw Watkins getting ready, I said to the guys with me, I said like, it's okay, he's gonna go with the front two and we're gonna suffer even more because I really expected Watkins and Rashford

to be on the pitch at the same time, not one replacing the other. And I think I was not sure about the midfield for Unai Emery and Villa before the game tonight, but even less that substitution. Yeah, they made it more difficult for themselves potentially with that substitution, but I'm more nervous for the way they set it up for the end of the game made it very nerdy for Paris Saint-Germain. When you went in at half time Jules were you expecting to have the last 10-15 minutes in that sort of state of anxiety? Absolutely not I could hardly watch at the end case but

we said didn't we before the game this is still a young PhD team is the second youngest team in this competition and and it showed in that second half the lack of control and it's not so much having 100% of the ball, you can control the pace of a game without having the ball anyway. And yet they could not do the Magin goal, it's a goal you should not be considering at this kind of level really. To be fair, even the Tillymans ones is already, even if it's a known goal, it's still not really. But Maguinho especially, he can't be running through like this and nobody just doesn't do anything. So it shows the youth of that team, especially that midfielder, Joeneves, has a lot of great ability. But there's times he needs to learn.

And I think for this young PSG team, this is a great lesson to them. Against a better team than Villa or maybe a team that is more used to those kind of quarterfinals, semi-finals of the Champions League, they're out tonight. So they got a bit lucky. I think they made it harder for themselves for sure because at 2011 the game should have been over. But it's a great lesson for them to learn tonight. Yeah, they've learned great lessons across the course of the two legs really in the way in which they managed to really squeeze Villa, particularly towards the end of the first leg in Paris, and then mistakes to learn from or errors of judgement maybe to learn from

in the second half particularly of that one. Were these frailties that you were already aware of, Jules, were they kind of fallibilities in this side that you already knew about or is it something that they've learned in this competition? No, we've seen them a little bit. I remember the first leg away at Brest, for example, in the playoff tie where they were one-nil up and then they had 10 minutes where they just could not make three passes together. They could not get out of their own half. And that was only Brest. And after the game, I remember speaking to Luis Enrique and he said, I didn't like those 10, 15 minutes at the end of the first half where Breyce hit the woodwork and

and Piaget were really on the back foot and he's not going to be happy by the start of their second half tonight for similar reasons. Again, you can't control a game without having the ball. You don't always need to have the ball because in the first half, for what we said before the game, they had 67 or 68 percent of the ball in the first half and that's how they controlled pretty much the tempo of the whole game in the first half. And yet Villa were still in it very much after the Tillemans goal. But they were there in the second half, they switched off for the first 15 minutes. So there's things that we've seen at times also in the league where it looks like they

take it lightly then. And I guess that can come with youth where you become a little bit more arrogant and you take things lightly and you're not really as intense and switched on that you should be. And that first half at some point felt like there's a moment where Fabian Rees, who's one of the most experienced in that team, tried like a crossover from almost the left of his own box, tried to switch the ball completely on the other side, which is a stupid thing to do and almost lost the ball.

And you're thinking like, why are you doing that in that first half? So again, in the way what they did with the ball, I think they would have learned a lot from what went wrong today. And we're in a strange situation where we've got a quarter-final of the Champions League where, at the end of it, neither side are really happy. Villa, because they haven't gone through.

And Paris, because they made it, they were very nervous for themselves at the end. What will the reaction be from Paris Saint-Germain fans? No, I think they will be super happy. As we said before, it's four semifinals in six seasons now. And the two that didn't make it was the two when they had this completely disjointed team with Neymar, Messi and Mbappé up front.

So that is very positive. And again, I think they will be happy because they are through. Yes, they got lucky for sure. They were that luck. But also I think they would have learned a lot and tomorrow when they watch the game again with Luis Enrique who does that after every single game they play, whether it's a good game, a bad game, Champions League,

the league, they sit down and watch pretty much the whole game by clips of what they did well and what they didn't do well. I think tomorrow will be very interesting for this young team to re-watch it again and see what they could have done better and certainly what went wrong. So I think overall it's super positive but like we said they made it hard for themselves. And John Murray that's three Premier League sides in a row that Paris Saint-Germain have beaten across two legs and there might be a fourth to come. Well yes as I was saying during the match our new friend, because we've made so many visits to Paris already

this year in the little bistro not far away from the Parc des Prances, he said to us if we beat Manchester City in the way that we have and then knocked out Liverpool, then knock out Aston Villa, if we knock out Arsenal in the semi-finals they should give us the Premier League trophy as well as the French League title. Yeah, it's been an incredible run and it's just one of those quirks that is thrown up that it has been Premier League sides, but they have to be one of the... I know Barcelona were really impressive, but I mean, again, they were on the wrong end of a heavy defeat in Dortmund this evening, Jules, but Paris have

to be one of the hot favourites for this tournament. Yeah, because I think over one game today was because of the lead in the first leg and then what happened in the second leg, the lead even in the second leg, I think at 2 nil up, they really thought this game is over now, it's going to be easy. And then it wasn't because Champions League football, whatever style of football is never easy anyway. But as we said, they would have learned a lot. But over one game, over 90 minutes, maybe 120 minutes, I really believe they can beat anyone.

Because they've got the style of football, they've got the intensity, they've got the youth, they've got so much talent. I mean, the two full backs today in Hakeem and Mendes, I think you can look at the Arsenal full backs, Inter Milan full backs, the Barcelona full backs, of course, Kunde, Balde. I just don't think at the Arsenal full-backs, Inter Milan full-backs, the Barcelona full-backs, of course, Koundé, Balde.

I just don't think they are better full-backs than Hakimi and Mendes right now in Europe. And when you have those as threat with the ball but also defending well, when you've got the midfield three that PSG have, plus Dembele and Vaz Calderon, Douay, Barcawla, and when Donnarumma is on his game like he was tonight for example, or like he was in the second leg away at Liverpool, then yeah you've got huge chance of course, but there's still a long way to go. Whether it's Arsenal or Real Madrid, maybe more likely Arsenal in the semi-finals, it won't be easy either. But they just, they are growing, game after game they're growing, month after month we saw them growing this season. We were all

together at the Arsenal PhD game in October and they were nowhere near as good as they are right now and they've kept growing and growing and that's that's how they got here again. Jules is he doing anything particular regarding their fitness because Stephen mentioned it at half time saying how they are fit they look they look lean they look fitter than anybody else their energy levels are incredible is he doing anything you know in particular to to make that look as it looks there's to be fair i think they've been very smart in the the game management and how many minutes everybody has played and i guess it's easier to do that in ligand where you are so dominant and so better than everybody else in other of the big five leagues also let's not forget they didn't play at the weekend they asked for the game to be postponed. The league agreed to it. Lyon, for example, who

play on Thursday at United wanted to play. So they played their game on Sunday, but PHD basically had the choice and decided not to play their game. There was something that Eric Roy, the breast manager said after the first leg when he said they ran 122 kilometers, 122.4 in that game against PSG. And Roy said they were so happy with the numbers, all the sprints at high intensity, all the running, everything, because it was the best that the players

had never done before. And they looked at the PSG one and it was 122.6. Even on that, they beat us. They had 65% of the ball and they ran more than us. He said it was bonkers. And I think that fitness and the intensity and the pressing, counter pressing, okay, today was not completely right through the whole game. But it's the big key of why they've been so good as well. I just wonder whether this might come a year too early for Paris Saint-Germain

because of that needing to understand a little bit more how to control games. So when we look at Barcelona and we look at Paris Saint-Germain, defensively we've seen vulnerabilities, tonight certainly. But you look at Barcelona defensively, they ship goals. But you look at Inter Milan on a balance of the team, both in attack and defence, they seem to have got that right at the moment. But on the day Paris Saint-Germain are a very difficult team

to play against, I certainly put them down as favourites for it from the best team I've seen over a two-legged period against Liverpool and that first leg against Aston Villa and probably the first half tonight. It's more just that second half. If you do get at them, if you cause them problems, there is just that little bit of naivety because of the youthness of the squad. Yeah, and that potentially could hamper them in terms of going on to win the tournament. What about going on to beat Arsenal across two legs?

Because it looks as though that's who they're going to be facing in the semi-finals, Jules. Yeah, I mean, we will see again because of the balance that Steve mentioned about Inter Milan, for example, I think Arsenal have something similar where they are so good without the ball, they are so good defensively. I know they've gone to the goals lately, but they still are so, so, so strong. And this is kind of more maybe than a team that really attack you and play the similar style of that PSG play. This is maybe where they could be undone. So it will see, for Arsenal fans who

still remember that game back in October where Arsenal were so much better obviously than Paris, you have to forget that because this PSG team is so different to the one that went to the Emirates and really got outplayed and outsmarted by Arsenal back in October. Probably worth pointing out that in the semi-finals PSG would be at home in the second leg and you know we know from experience what a force of nature this PSG team can be on their home turf. Just on the point that Steven made about Inter Milan being so defensively strong, Arsenal have also put in some really good defensive performances this season in the Champions League. Just looking at the stats, Inter Milan have got the fewest goals conceded per game. Arsenal

got the fewest expected goals per 90 in the Champions League. So both of those two teams are quite defensively solid and you look at PSG's strengths, you know the two wingers have been so dynamic and so good, be it you know Barcaola, Desiree Douay, you know Dembele drifting out or Kravatskelea. You look at that battle versus Jurri and Timber, that is going to be super excited and that'll be where the games will have lost. I'm Aaron Paul. And I'm Jovi Makanac. And on Wednesdays on The Football Daily,

we bring you 72+, the home of the EFL from Five Life Sport. As we'll get stuck into the latest from the Football League and beyond. I can't put a finger on why we weren't as energetic as we usually are. What they've got there is genuinely good people that really care about that football club and the fans have been huge in terms of the backing that they've given to this group. That's 72 Plus, the EFL podcast only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily podcast, the Champions League debrief with Kelly Kitts. Listen on BBC Sounds. On Wednesday, the Champions League commentary

continues on Five Live Sport as Arsenal take a 3-0 lead into their Champions League quarterfinal second leg against Real Madrid. Build up from seven and our commentary team of Ian Dennis and Matt Upson are already in Spain for us. Thank you Kelly and I can tell you don't have to be long in Madrid before you hear the word remontada. Come back. That's all they're talking about ahead of this second leg. I mean Real Madrid actually haven't done it for something like 40 years. However, it doesn't stop them dreaming and as we speak 24 hours before kickoff, I dread to think what the state will be

outside the Bernabeu because the hyperbole with a day to go has been something else. And yet they are continuing, Matt Upson, to hype up this game and saying the narrative here in Spain, if it can happen anywhere, it can happen at the Bernabeu. Well, history will tell you that, won't it? So I totally understand the hype, I understand the noise, I understand the expectation of this, you know, Real Madrid group of players, Los Galacticos, you know, the history all around that, but they're up against quite

a stubborn team in Arsenal, maybe other than Inter, you know, you'd say would come and defend brilliantly, Atletico Madrid have got that about them. Arsenal was slightly for me in that category of being stubborn, defensive, know how to defend set plays and also a threat from set plays himself. So I think it's going to be a tough task for Real. I mean we were at the Emirates together last week and even then when Arsenal pulled off what was an incredible win and the manner of the performance by three goals to nil. At no point did you hear any Arsenal fan say that's it we're through. Everybody I think is still of the same opinion that this tie is still not over. No I completely agree you can't ever say that

this ties over you're coming to this stadium, you've got 90 minutes of football, yes there's a three goal lead, but if this place gets going and one goes in and then the hype starts coming, the pressure heaps on Arsenal and that they are in a pressure position now. They have to face that, they had little pressure in the first game because I think the expectation is all around Real Madrid. Now the expectation's on them, the table is turned. Can they deal with it? Can they manage the game to get the result they need? Well, let's hear from Mikael Arteta because he's been saying that they want to win.

They're going out. That is their intention to win this game. And he's in a positive mood. When you have to create a story, when you have to build a story, first of all, you have to be excited about it. They have to be really prepared about it. And then you have to be really convinced about what you want to achieve.

And then it's about insisting and go a step by a step. And a lot of clubs have built their history by doing it many times, trying many times, sometimes failing, sometimes being successful. And last year we had an experience and with that one, we want to be better this season and apply that to be in the semi- semi-finals which will be only our third time in the history of our football club. How do you block out that external noise because the narrative here in Spain is impossible. Outside no we can do it on the

pitch now I understand that is a narrative that that is going to give the the fuel to them. It's over a hundred games since you lost by a three goal margin. Can you talk about that resilience that you've found in the last couple of years and what was your message be to the team in the dressing room before you leave for the field? That we have to do it again. I think it's over 472 days or something like this, but it doesn't matter. We have to prove it now in this context and that's the beauty of it.

That's the challenge and that's the great thing about sports. And we've shown that we are capable of doing it. That has to give us reassurance and confidence that we can do it. And now let's talk on the pitch and do it on the pitch. It's the only thing that matters. So that was Mikael Arteta. What was fascinating about that is that I'd done my homework. It's 103 games actually since Arsenal last lost by a three goal

margin and yet he knew it was 472 days. I haven't even got to that level of research yet so I'm going to have to go back and check that but the fact that he knew it was 472 days suggests to me that they've checked to see when was the last time that they lost a game by a three goal margin. And incidentally, for those Anoraks who want to know, it was Brighton in May, 2023. Yeah, I mean, somebody's found that out for him, or he's asked a question and thought, how long has it been? And I think it's an interesting question to be honest, because if you start looking at that,

perhaps that will be something he'll use to build confidence, to give reassurance to the players. I think it's the type of game where that kind of thing does fly out the window a little bit, I will say. These are one-off matches. These are huge games. What you did in the past doesn't really matter once you get onto that pitch,

but I think it's really important the players feel confident in how good they are at that side of the game and maybe using that as a tool Is really interesting It was asked a question also and the guy actually it was in spanish and the guy said i'm sorry for asking a silly question He says but you say you want to win But you don't need to win and I guess where the guy is coming from because you could have the mentality thinking Let's go to the burnabout. We'll shut up shop, we'll protect the three goals. But Mikael's answer to that was,

no, we're gonna play the way that we want to play and how comfortable we are playing that way. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think that is 100% the way to go. You start trying to use different things, different positions, different methods. And also, in that kind of stadium, once the momentum builds,

if you're sat deep and you're under real pressure, and then one does go in, then you've got to switch modes to get out again and try and take the game high up the pitch. I think having that mindset is the best form of defense for Arsenal. Can I ask a silly question? Go for it.

Who is under more pressure? Arsenal with a three goal lead to lose or Real Madrid with a three goal deficit to overcome? I think Arsenal. I think Arsenal have the pressure. There is an added pressure on on Real as Drew Bellingham, you know, has has has indicated that there's an expectation around them to go out and win this game. A lot of people are talking about that, that as if like the expectancy for Raoul to make this into a magical night and turn around a 3-0 deficit. But I think that that physical 3-0 lead will weigh more pressure wise on the Arsenal players

that they have to go on and win this tie. Well let's hear from Jude Bellingham, he's been speaking to the media. And the England International is happy to embrace the expectation. It's a weird environment at the minute, the last few days. It's like one of the worst results we could possibly imagine away. And for some reason, everyone thinks it's now done

that we'll come back. And it's a nice feeling, I have to say. It means there's a lot of trust in the talent. It means that you're at a club that's unlike no other, the best in the world. That's what it represents and signifies to me. There's a pressure that comes along with that for sure and we'll want to deliver on what everyone thinks that we can come back and that's obviously the goal for us. But yeah, there is a pressure about it and that's what it's all about. It's a night that's made for Real Madrid, a night

that would go down in history but also be something that people are familiar with around this part of the world so hopefully we can add another special night. There's not a lot you can do for Real Madrid in the Champions League that hasn't already been done and tomorrow is an opportunity for us to do something that hasn't been done for the first time and that's really important to us. So Jude Bellingham looking to try and create a moment of history as far as Real Madrid are concerned it's 40 years actually since they last did it and there have been two occasions since where they've failed to do so but in their

European history on six occasions they've trailed the first leg by three goals or more they have won the second leg on all six occasions. However, three times they've progressed, three times they have been eliminated. The quality that they have at their disposal, they don't have to score early, but the first goal in this game will be crucial. Yeah, I mean, most games you can kind of say

that that would be true. I think certainly in this circumstance it's hugely important at home, you know, getting that crowd up is key for Real Madrid, making Arsenal feel really uncomfortable and really, you know, under the cosh. I think then you're really asking questions. You're asking questions of players. Can they hold their nerve? Will they make a mistake? Will they just make a misjudgment?

All it needs is something small. This level, you make that small piece of indecision and somebody's on it. One of the attacking players, they're on the front foot and they're on it. So they'll be wanting to force those errors, force that pressure. So I just think it's a fascinating situation for both teams

and it's a tough one to call still. We're in for a treat, aren't we? Hopefully so. And from Madrid, it is a case of hasta luego, Lady Kelly. Muchas gracias Ian and Matt. Paris Saint-Germain are through to the semi-finals of the Champions League where they will face Arsenal, unless, unless, unless, Jules. Thank you, Ian and Matt. who's had quite the week. Quite the week, you're right with that breakout on Sunday against Alaves. The sort of challenge I've never seen him really done because that was so dangerous and so unlike him, but he will be able to play tomorrow.

Of course, the front page today of Marca in Spain was, this is how we do it. This is how Ramadurai do it and reminding everybody every time, including against Derby County. I'm sure Dion Dublin is young enough and John Murray, of course, to remember that game in the 75-76 season. But all those times when he did it before. Yeah, exactly. But this time, I don't know, this time they will need something special.

To start with, they need to play more as a team than they probably have ever done so far this season. And we said the this Arsenal team is very good defensively. They've reminded us of the stats. Without the ball, I think they are probably the best team in Europe, Arsenal, even without Gabriel. And Ramadjou will need something very special. But of course, if one team can do it, it's them. And if a set of players can do it, it's Bellingham, Rodrigo, Vinicius and Mbappe, there's no doubt. Jules, you say that and yet we haven't seen the best of Real Madrid in this tournament this season. I think every time that that's happened with Madrid it's because they haven't maybe been at their best.

And yes, they do, as you pointed out, have those individual stars in there. But have we seen Madrid playing like Madrid this season? It's certainly enough to be able to overturn that kind of scoreline against Arsenal. But Carlo Ancelotti has never been a manager for patterns of play and for this kind of like, this kind of football anyway. He's the king of management, this is what he does and then he let the players express themselves, the talent. But there was always still a structure to it and a cohesion to it in previous years. Even when they were coming back against the likes of Chelsea

or City, those kind of teams, even PhD with Benzema and all of that, this season it feels there's just no structure. It's again, to go back to the discussion we had before the game about PhD of the years under Messi and Neymar and Mbappe, this Real Madrid team feels a little bit like that. It feels it's just a sum of individual super talented players of course, but still not really a team. There's not that togetherness, there's not that cohesion tactically. It's very much the front three

don't, they don't defend that much. There's not real any link between the different lines. And at times, especially against top teams, they struggled. They struggled against Barcelona, they got beaten, they struggled against Atletico Madrid, they got beaten. They even struggled in the first half against Dortmund in the Champions League. They got beaten by Milan at home. They got well beaten by Arsenal and deservedly. So it's not even if that game was closed. They could even have lost 4 or 5-0 at the Emirates last week. So unless they find a way of playing more as a team, I find it really hard to believe that they can overturn that first time.

Are you saying there's a common denominator? I don't know if it's Kylian, it's not him that decided to build this team like this, but I think at times people who run those football clubs have to understand that it's not because you add another talented player on top of another talented player on top of that, that it makes you a winning team. It just doesn't work like this. And there's a reason why Luis Enrique didn't want variety and name our PSG. There's also a reason why in other clubs, instead of signing yet another super talented individual, you go and sign, well, I would rather him because I know he's going to play more for the team than the other guy. And I think this Real Madrid team so far has just showed that again, that you just, that's not how you build a successful team, of course.

There's a lot of research around that suggests that football teams will fall to the level of their lowest player more often than they will rise to the level of their best player. And I think maybe sometimes that's where owners and certainly in clubs where they have, you know, elections for president, there's sometimes they get a little bit starstruck and they start going for these Harlem Globetrotters of players. And that's certainly what Kylian Mbappe is. But can Real Madrid do it? You'll be able to find out on 5Live Sport when they take on Arsenal who need to hold on to that 3-0 advantage that they have against Madrid. Julien, Laurent, Stapman, Dave, Steven, John, Dion thank you very much lovely to hear from all of you. That is it for this episode of the Football Daily. Steve Crossman will be here for the next one. We'll have reaction to Wednesday's Champions League quarterfinal second leg between Real Madrid and Arsenal

should be a good one. Thanks for listening. It's the scandal that rocked rugby union to its core. The so-called Bloodgate scandal. Tom Williams now receiving attention. It seems so clear that this wasn't real blood. It's out and out cheating. This is a story of lies and deception, conspiracies and cover-ups. There was terror that it could tear the house down. Courtroom drama and secret deals. So obviously a lie. And a human cost that changed lives and careers forever. Dee Richards is found guilty and banned for three years.

I'm Ross Kemp and this is Sports Strangers Crimes, Bloodgate. Listen on BBC Sounds.