Football Daily - Champions League Debrief: Villa victorious & Arsenal amble as both into QFs

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Kelly Cates is alongside former Manchester City defender Nedum Onuoha, former Arsenal & West Ham centre back Matthew Upson, and BBC Football Correspondent John Murray for reaction to Aston Villa and Arsenal qualifying for the Champions League quarter-finals. Hear from Aston Villa manager Unai Emery on the prospect of facing PSG, and Arsenal boss Mikel Arteta talks about Arsenal getting the job done as the Gunners eye European success.Plus, Kelly looks ahead to Manchester United’s crucial Europa League round of 16 second leg against Real Sociedad.BBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week: Thu 13 Mar 2000 Man Utd v Real Sociedad in the Europa League Sat 15 Mar 1500 Ipswich v Nottingham Forest in the Premier League Sun 16 Mar 1330 Arsenal v Chelsea in the Premier League Sun 16 Mar 1630 Liverpool v Newcastle in the EFL Cup Final Sun 16 Mar 1900 Leicester v Man Utd in the Premier League

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off. Jupiter versus Saturn. It's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice.

And also in this series, we're discussing history music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. On the Football Daily Podcast, the Champions League debrief Sounds music radio podcasts. Aston Villa and Arsenal have both sealed their places in the last eight of the Champions League on a day when it snowed at Cheltenham. There was a flurry of goals at Villa Park and it was a formality for Michaela Tettiside who took a 7-1 lead back to the Emirates and managed to come

away with a 2-0 draw that's 9-3 on aggregate. With me tonight Nedim Anouar, hi Nedim. Hey how are you? All very good all very good and Matthew Upson watched alongside John Murray at Villa Park. John it was already 3-1 to Villa from the first leg but this was not quite a formality for. John, it was already 3-1 to Villa from the first leg, but this was not quite a formality for them. No, it was convincing in the end as Aston Villa take their place in the quarterfinals of this competition for the first time for 42 years, but yes Villa Park was a frustrated place at the break when it was 0-0 on the night. They were never in any danger, but Bruges had been down to 10 men

since the 17th minute when the right back Sabah was sent off for a foul on Rashford as he burst through. But Villa failed to impose themselves on the 10 men and Bruges were the better team until Unai Emery changed things at half time. On came Asensio and Bailey and Villa were a different team. They combined for Asensio to open the scoring. Ian Mattson shot in his first goal for the club and Rashford set up Asensio for what is his seventh goal in a Villa shirt and that's three in the tie. And by the end Villa were really romping it through and we had fireworks to herald the fact that Villa are into the quarter-finals for a very tasty looking tie against Paris Saint-Germain when the second leg will be here at Villa Parc.

That tie will be either the 15th or 16th of April with the first leg being played on the 8th or 9th. It is a very tasty looking tie between Aston Villa and Paris Saint-Germain but we'll look ahead to that in a moment after we've reflected on the two legs really Matt that Villa have played against Club Bruges because although Bruges came into this game saying would you know what having gone 3-1 down the league is now very much our Priority there was still a hurdle to overcome for Villa. Yeah, absolutely and the game started like that I think Aston Villa were kind of just a little bit unsure about how they should approach this. You know, so much at stake at home. You know, the excitement around this stadium of reaching the Champions League quarterfinals. I mean, the pressure was on to a degree, even though they had a two goal buffer and it played out like that.

It was a bit weird. The way Villa went about the first half and you have to credit Borussia a little bit for that because they relaxed into their game early on, they passed the ball nicely, they go up the left side really, really nicely with Solis and De Kuyper who looks a really tidy left back creative passer and they were good value, created one really good chance that just kind of set Villa back and they were struggling to get going until the sending off made things a little bit easier but it was a really good nice tidy first half display from Club Bruges. And it's four straight wins now for Aston Villa and Neidion, they're just starting to build a bit of momentum at a really important part of the season.

Yeah absolutely, I think as the guys were saying the performance itself especially that first half wasn't great but something that I think they have a real strength to do, and I am really on the side. Somebody who can see the right sort of changes to make and who doesn't get flustered by any particular moment, any big game, and that's been one of the big reasons why they are on this run that they're on at the moment. And as you said, the timing is perfect. To be playing good football as you're heading into spring

means that anything could be possible in the second half of the season. So more power to them. And yeah, I think if they do manage to impose themselves in the way that they weren't able to in this game against Paris Saint-Germain, then really, who knows? Let's get more reaction from Villa Park. Here's Unai Emery talking in his post-match press conference. Very happy how we compete two matches, the first leg there and the second leg here. Of

course, the first half we struggled, we didn't control the game like we planned but of course because we respected them as well and we tried to press them to recover the ball but they were really keeping the ball possession and avoiding our press. They were not getting chances, clear chances but they were dominating more or less the match. And when we provoked the red card of them, the player he was sent off, of course was a very good opportunity to try again to react and to control the game. But even playing with one player more, we didn't do. We didn't control the game, we didn't get the ball and play dominating, play controlling of the game with our positioning and we spoke in the dressing room about how we could change the second half.

Unai, I know this tie is only just over but having seen Paris Saint-Germain as I'm sure you have, do you already have a plan in your mind about the best way to approach that tie? No, not yet. Of course we were focusing on Bruce, we respected him and we played 100% thinking only on Bruce. Now we are going to start first to rest, to recover our energy, our mind as well to rest a little bit in the next two weeks. We are going to prepare firstly to play against Preston, secondly against Brighton and then of course progressively take information about them. But I know how the huge potential they have and of course Now they are going to be excited and very motivated for this Champions League because they beat the better team in this season in Europe and in

Premier League like Liverpool and they perform very well. Of course better at home than away but they compete two matches fantastic. We are going to analyze we're going to try to identify as well our power against them, their weakness and try to prepare as better as possible the match. Do you think they are the best team in Europe right now? Wow Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, Arsenal, Orze Dormund. This is the level and we are in this level. We have to be proud but as well we want more. Matt, for Villa those signings in the January transfer window have been talked about at great length in terms of

what they could bring potentially and then what they have brought to Aston Villa. But yet again, it was Marco Asensio, seven goals in eight games since he signed on loan from Paris Saint-Germain. I know, it's crazy isn't it? I mean, that's some going isn't it? I mean, what an impact he's had coming off on off the bench. I mean, he looks comfortable in that that, you know, he's he'll still apply himself in a top level, having not started. And I know he's probably come wanting to play more football, but to be around playing the role that he's playing is incredible for the team. And I think that that is credit to the manager because he's created environment where people appear to come to Aston Villa and feel happy in their football. Marcus Rashford,

probably a change of scenery, was going to do him the world of good and he's coming, looks fresher, he looks like he's enjoying himself. We touched on Di Sassi, a right back who comes across from Chelsea and you know in that right back position, not ideal but making the most of it, looking good, enjoying football and yeah I think he's got that feel around the club at the moment and they've got to make the most of it and enjoy the moment and that's how it feels when you're here. What's lovely about it is, I think, when you come here in our position, you just cannot fail to be hit by the European Cup history for this club. And this is now a new generation

who are able to enjoy it but I mean literally every corner, Kelly, that you come to Villa Park, if you walk up the street they've actually got it they've got all of the stars of 82, they've got posters of them on the side of the on the side of the stand as you walk up to come round towards the main entrance inside the ground as I mentioned during to come round towards the main entrance. Inside the ground, as I mentioned during the match, there's the famous banner which has Brian Moore's commentary from 1982. In the media room where we go, massive picture of the European Cup on the wall and lots and lots of photographs. They have lanterns as well. We should talk about the the lanterns because that was the

Tifa. When we saw saw it the Celtic game They put that Tifa down of Ozzie Osborne So we were waiting on tenterhooks to see what they would have in store for Club Rouge And it was a lantern which caused some temporary confusion until John you discovered the the kind of origin story Yes, I have to give credit to The kind of origin story? Yes, I have to give credit to our production and engineering support who had found out that Villa were... what was the story of it? They were formed under the...

It was a Bible club, it was a gentleman's Bible club, I think, who had formed under a lamp post. Under a lamp post, under the light of the Birmingham lamp post. And so they have one at Villa Park, a replica, and people are supposed to meet underneath the lamp post and share those stories of the history of Aston Villa and an appropriate night for it because as you said, they are European Cup winners, they are incredibly proud of their achievements in 1982 and now they have a future, they have a present and a future in this club as well. I just want to go back with you Matt to Marco Asensio because we see the moments from him,

we see the goals, we see the numbers, we see the seven goals in eight games. When you watch him in person, when you see him across the course of a match and you see him working on and off the ball does he look like a player who is contributing that much to the game? What do you notice about the way that he affects the game for Villa? I think he's clever in where he positions himself. I mean he came on this evening and straight away just identified the space. Borussia had had to go like three for three at the back they were were matching up, they had no choice, they're trying to score a goal and they're down to 10 men. I mean it's a nightmare really and they didn't really exploit that in the first half filler, they couldn't quite get into the rhythm and straight away he comes on the pitch, he's got

this little knack and the intelligence to pick up the right areas, make the right runs in the space, receiving the ball. I mean he's got where he swivels and hits it with his right foot first time. He just kind of darts along the line. He sees the little opening. And I think that's what made the mind up of Bailey, just to flick this little ball in there. It was really simple, but it was clever.

And that's what he brings. It's know how. It's understanding playing at the top level. It's playing, understanding rotation from being at a big club and knowing that you might not play every game, but you're going to play your part, what that part is, getting yourself in a mentality that when it's your turn to play your part, you're at your best and you're delivering. And I think that's what world-class footballers do. And

he's in that bracket. So great signing for Aston Villa and he's going to play a big part to the really exciting finish to the season they have ahead. And neither Marco Asensio nor Marcus Rashford-Nadim have played that much football before they came into Aston Villa, certainly not across the course of their career, but this season neither Asensio nor Rashford have played a lot of football. But since he's come in, Marcus Rashford-Nadim got the goal in the, and he's also got four assists in his last nine matches. They're glimpses of classic Marcus Rashford there. Classic Marcus Rashford.

Glimpses on. Yeah, I think what is classic Marcus Rashford? I think that's the initial question I would sort of think of. But I think in terms of his style of play, the direction that he's going, say, taking people on the speed, and, you know, that final ball, getting those assists for Asensio, I think that stuff has been great. And I think as you sort of look at the fact that they've managed to get those two players

in January, while still both have not been playing for their teams, obviously it's come at a significant expense, but they are to be able to see that and to be able to do it and to see these players who are hungry to make a difference. It's worked out so, so well for them. And by the the way while we've been talking, I'm sorry to say this but like there's so much trauma because keep hearing a whistle in the background. Is it all the guys who are having to run because it's not playing in the game? You can feel their pain. Yeah wasn't that just the worst thing ever after being sat on the bench for that long? Yeah come guys let's go do some more running. You know, at the moment it's box to box.

But after a game like that, with all that energy, I can imagine for fans who've been sitting in the stands watching that, or for fans who've been listening at home, having had that kind of, that release of energy with the victory, knowing that you've reached the quarterfinals of the competition, seeing the fireworks on the final whistle. Sometimes it's nice to get rid of that energy.

You're both going to tell me no, aren't you? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You like to get rid of energy during the game. I'm a doing Nana right now. I'm looking at him. He's just leant over. He's got his hands on his knees. He's now gone down on his haunches.

He doesn't look to me, Matt, as though he's enjoying getting his energy. As though it's a useful expending of energy, a nervous energy for him. Look, they're going to be very nervous ahead of the game against Paris Saint-Germain because of what we've seen them do, particularly, not necessarily across the whole of the competition, but particularly in the two legs against Liverpool. It's really tough opposition for Aston Villa. I know they're enjoying the moment at the moment, but they've got a tough quarter, possibly the toughest quarterfinal ahead. What do you think, Matt? Yeah, I agree. From what I've seen, it's the toughest quarterfinal against a team that has so much to prove and is desperate to be successful in this competition. And my biggest fear is whenever I've seen PSG is the physicality of how they play. We touched on it in the commentary, Jon, that it's so different to the PSG that you remember having

all the talent and being the threat, making the final but always missing out. This team's got a grittiness and an engine and a physicality to do the horrible ugly things well and suffocate you and especially in the midfield, those three in midfield, they're just great to watch and I think that that's what makes the tie incredibly difficult for Aston Villa. Exceptionally well coached by Luis Enrique as well and yes this will be a completely different tie because they will be considered to be the big favourites to come through against Aston Villa. They will but there again virtually every match they play they're the big favourites. So they're used to dealing with that and just just going back to Rashford and Essencio, what I like about those signings is that there's the happy coincidence of them

also bringing Champions League experience to Aston Villa. And Rashford's had good moments, famous times against PSG. I remember scoring that penalty for Oligonis Halshaw's side and, you know, Essencio has, well, I mean, stacks of Champions League experience. Yeah, and as you say, all those PSG links just keep on coming. Unai Emery, of course, formerly manager of PSG, didn't get past the round of 16 while he was manager of PSG.

And it just, there are gonna be all these storylines, Naidum, just bubbling away ahead of their quarterfinal. Absolutely, they are. And it's interesting as well, because obviously, well, I say obviously Villa will be there as the underdog in this time, but then they have the second leg at home. It's going to be so, so interesting. And this PSG side, for the way they played in the two games against Liverpool, was so impressed. But this Villa side is different. It's not saying it's better or worse than Liverpool, it's different. The way in which they might try and set themselves up to try and win is different.

And Unai Emery on the sidelines, like, well, for me, what a great manager to have as you go on this adventure into Europe as well. So it's going to be a fantastic tie. So many people trying to prove a point. And for Villa themselves, what happens if they win this tie? Would you not be believing that you can go all the way? Because for some, right now, PSG are the best side in Europe. And if you can manage to beat them, obviously this is for some, if they manage to beat them, then we might be witnessing history again. I want to say it's 42 years since the last one.

Maybe this is going to be in our lifetimes now. 42 years since they were last in a quarterfinal. And it's remarkable, really. They've only had three seasons in this competition. The first season they played in it, in 81, 82, they won it. in a quarterfinal and it's remarkable really. They've only had three seasons in this competition. First season they played in it in 81-82 they won it. Next season as defending champions reached the quarterfinal as we mentioned during the course of the match went out to a star-studded Juventus side and here they are now all these years later quarterfinals again. And 42 years

same age as Prince William. Born in 82. Yes, he was born in the year in which Villa won the European Cup. And would act as a sign for that game against Club Rouge. And I'd noticed, was wearing one of the scarves that they handed out for free. I did notice. Yeah, everyone got one. Doesn't matter whether you were royalty or just a plain pauper like me and Matt. You've been wearing your Villa scarves then?

I actually turned down the offer of my Villa scarf. I don't have one. I just want to put that out there. Alright, well, it's spring, isn't it? I thought it wasn't the right thing to do. It's not the right note to strike necessarily, is it? Certainly not when you're covering Premier League games involving Aston Villa. I don't think that would go down terribly well.

That could not be considered to be impartial. Listen on BBC Sounds. ZOOM Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox and we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet on Jupiter vs. Saturn! It's very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice.

And also in this series we're discussing history music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts. The commentators view on the football daily. I'm Alistair Bruce Ball. I'm John Murray. Hello, I'm Ian Dennis. And Friday's On the Football Daily means one thing. It's time for the commentators view episode. Join us every Friday as we look ahead to the weekend's football action with a few untold

stories along the way. A wasp flew into my mouth while I was talking and I panicked. The commentators view only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. Arsenal through after a 7-1 win in the first leg against PSV and a two-all draw at the Emirates. Alistair Bruce Ball watched that for us. Steady rather than spectacular, Ali. Yeah, exactly right, Kelly. 9-3 on aggregate in the end. This was a drama-free night for Arsenal, thanks to that crushing win in Eindhoven last week. And I think

exactly what Mikhail Arteta will have wanted. It gave him a chance to rest some of the key players, also a chance actually to give others some game time. I would say Raheem Sterling certainly benefited from that. He had a good night in what's been a tricky season for him here so far. He created both of Arsenal's goals. Zinchenko slammed in the first in only the sixth minute. Ivan Perisic, former Tottenham man, cancelled that one out. Then, still in strong dribble and cross, he beat two men, whipped the ball in, it created the second for Declan Rice, which was a simple header from close range. PSV levelled up again in the second half. That was a delightful chip finish actually from their young Moroccan star Kouhey Brioche. So 2-2 on the night, 9-3 on aggregate, one goal shy of the record

number scored over two legs of any Champions League knockout tie. In terms of records though, Kelly, I just wonder whether Arsenal set one for most left backs in a starting 11-4 to begin with on the night. It became five when Calafiore was brought on in the second half. Everyone was going through the motions by then. Yeah, when Calafiore did come on for Declan Rice, that was Arsenal's outfield, then 50% left-back, which is quite some going from Mikael Ateta, certainly with some creative solutions to some of the injury problems and wanting to rest the players, of course, for the run-in to the end of this season. One of the things, Matt, that was a real positive from the evening

was the fact that Raheem Sterling got a couple of assists. The downside to that is also that he picked up a third Champions League yellow card, so he's going to be suspended for the first leg of the quarter-final. But it was an opportunity, as much as anything, this one, to rest some players, to get some momentum with players that haven't really sort of hit the heights this season. Raheem Sterling included. Yeah absolutely. I mean also to play Marino again as centre forward which I

think if that's the way that he's gonna have to go in the short term then he has to play that position and the more he plays there the more he picks up the good habits the movements and they get to know how he plays and what he what he can do. So all of that becomes important. I mean, Declan Rice barely misses a game, does he? I mean, it doesn't matter what's going on at Arsenal. Declan Rice is in the team, so they kept that spine, but you're right, the players that needed to come in and get some minutes like Sterling, Kivior at centre back, Zinchenko, who all of these players may well be very important come into the end of the season and certainly in this competition.

Let's hear from Mikhail Arteta in his post-match press conference. Well, with the results that we had from the first leg, it wasn't going to be full, but we had to continue and do the work in the manner that we wanted to finish the competition. Unfortunately we haven't managed to win the game, but we decided to make a lot of rotations as well. You could tell in the second half that we were tired, we were late to be much more dominant in the opposition half and much more consistent, especially when we didn't have the ball. Overall, very happy. Now we want to make the next step, which is going to be really difficult, but we are very

capable of doing it. Matt, been a pleasure talking to you. You've got to head off, haven't you? Yes, sorry. Thank you very much. Now explain why. Well, there's a bit of an issue with the car park's going to close quite early. How long have you got to get there? I think I've got about 20 minutes.... How long have you got to get there? I think I've got about 20 minutes, so it's about a 15 minute walk,

so I might have to have a little trot. Don't want to get locked in and stuck in Birmingham. Well, nothing wrong with Birmingham, Matt. No, no, no. Just not where your home is. Just not where your home is. Matthew Robson, thank you very much. Pleasure talking to you.

We've still got, of course, John Murray with us and Naida Manua is here as well. We're going got of course John Murray with us and Nader Maneur is here as well. We're going to focus on Thursday's European action because Manchester United are going into tomorrow's second leg against Real Sociedad in the Europa League all square after drawing one all in San Sebastian. Earlier this week the club's co-owner, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, was asked about the importance of winning the Europa League by BBC Sport editor Dan Rowan. You said a year ago it was really important that United were in the Champions League,

didn't happen and now face the prospect of not being in Europe at all. Or if they win the Europa League, being back in the Champions League. How important is it therefore that they do win the Europa League financially? I mean Thursday is a huge day for us, absolutely. We shouldn't underestimate that. Who knows, it's football, there are no guarantees in life. But it's a huge game on Thursday for Ruben. Huge game for Ruben, huge game for the club. If they go all the way in the Europa League this season,

they'll get around £35 million from UEFA, plus another £3.4 million for reaching next season's Super Cup. The Champions League phase alone, Naidum, would bring in between £42 and £50 million through all the sort of different levels of that. With Manchester United also announcing this new £2 billion stadium, regardless of how much outside or investment from the government there's going to be in that, that could be very, very handy for them. Or conversely, if they don't do it, could leave a big hole in their finances.

Do you know, for me personally, what I find crazy is historically when I will talk about Man United, it will always be about the success and not necessarily the cost of it or say the amount of money they could make or lose because of it. But I think with Sir Jim, like things seem quite clear that money is a very, very big factor to them. And I think the way that he's sort of setting this Europa League title from his perspective was it's a very different one for the fans. You know, they want to see their team just go back to being as successful as they were in the past. But these things, they really do matter.

I think United, as crazy as it may feel for us domestically, you know, they are the favorites for the Europa League. And the result in South Sea, in the South Sebastian drawing, like, it's not great, but you'd expect them to be able to take an advantage home in the fact they're playing in front of 70,000 people. So that should be okay for them. It should be okay. But we've said this so many times this season,

it should be okay. Like a team that's in the bottom half of the Premier League are favourites for the Europa League. What does that say about, say, some of the teams that they might be coming up against? It's gonna be very, very interesting. And I think, I'll be honest, it's so tough to talk about. It's so, so tough to talk about.

It's so, so tough because the numbers that you've mentioned, they all really do matter. Of course they do. But I never thought it matters to the point whereby you can almost dictate and sort of predict Manchester United's future based upon it. Because I would have just thought winning a European trophy and getting into the Champions League, however they can. That's a real significant sporting achievement,

not just one which financially they're going to be dependent upon. John, I think that's a real significant sporting achievement, not just one which financially they're going to be dependent upon. John, I think that's a really interesting perspective from Neydham because we are talking about Manchester United's finances because Sir Jim Ratcliffe is in charge of that and that's what he's going to talk about when he's interviewed. But it's also because they've been making the layoffs. It's also because they've announced this investment in the new stadium, however much that might end up costing the club. It's also because there have been the protests about the glazers and the money that they've announced this investment in the new stadium, however much that might end up costing the club. It's also because there've been the protests about the glazers and the money that

they've been taking out of the club in terms of the profits. And yet there is a genuine football opportunity, a trophy-winning opportunity here as Nadam says. Even by the standards of Manchester United it's been an extraordinary week and actually those three days I was reflecting on it, having been at Old Trafford myself on Sunday afternoon, and to hear, tell and see the protests and the scale of that, you know, thousands and thousands of people outside Old Trafford and in the Munich tunnel, them having to put down the shutters, that was Sunday afternoon when for the most part they really laboured against Arsenal, one of their traditional rivals and yes they could have won the match but for the most part really it was not

how it is supposed to be in the eyes of Manchester United supporters against that level of opposition against that type of club. So that was Sunday. Then Monday we have that extraordinary interview with the range of topics that Jim Ratcliffe discussed and the kinds of things that he was saying. That line about, you know, they're gonna run out of money by the end of the year. So that was Monday. Then Tuesday, we had that incredible announcement,

which I thought to watch the video of that in the context of what I'd heard Jim Ratcliffe saying the previous day, I thought was mind-boggling. And here they are with a massive game in Europe in the secondary competition to play on the Thursday night. So never dull. Never dull. And there is an old curse, isn't there?

May you live in interesting times, which may be how Manchester United fans feel at the moment. Chinese I think, isn't it? I think it might be, I think it might be. I wasn't confident enough to go with that but I'll trust you John Murray to kind of keep me straight. Thanks to Nadia Manua and John Murray, that is it for this episode of the Football Daily. Thank you for listening, make sure you're subscribed on BBC Sounds so you get a notification every time we upload an episode. Up next on the Football Daily is EuroLeague with Steve Crossman, Guillaume Balaguay, Julian Laron and James Horncastle. But from us, bye bye. What does it take to go racing in the fastest cars in the world?

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They work to build a beautiful bit of machinery that I get to then go and have fun in. I'm Josh Hartnett. This is F1, back at base. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Robin Eates. And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planetar.

Jupiter versus Saturn! It was very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series we're discussing history of music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes. So listen wherever you get your podcasts.