Football Daily - Champions League Preview: Aston Villa, Arsenal & Liverpool against Europe's best

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

John Bennett presents a preview to the Champions League Last 16 first legs. Rory Smith and Nedum Onuoha join John as the Champions League RO16 first legs approach.Aston Villa travel to Club Brugge with January signings Marco Asensio and Marcus Rashford in fine form. A tie against Liverpool or PSG would await Unai Emery if Villa can get past the Belgian Pro League side.With a 13-point gap between league-leaders Liverpool and Arsenal, the Champions League is now Mikel Arteta’s last realistic chance at silverware this season, but they’ll face a stern test from Dutch outfit PSV Eindhoven.It’ll be 1st in England vs 1st in France when Arne Slot’s Liverpool travel to PSG. The panel looks at two of Europe’s most in-form players in Mo Salah and Ousmane Dembele.Outside of the Premier League teams, Real Madrid host Atletico Madrid in a R016 city derby, and the top two in Germany – Bayern Munich and Bayer Leverkusen – come head-to-head. Timecodes: 01:15 The best UCL RO16 draw ever? 03:40 Club Brugge v Aston Villa 13:20 PSV v Arsenal 25:30 Real Madrid v Atletico Madrid 29:55 PSG v Liverpool 35:40 Bayern Munich v Bayer Leverkusen 39:35 Feyenoord v Inter Milan 40:35 Barcelona v Benfica 41:25 Ruben Amorim hits back at Wayne RooneyEuropean Commentaries on 5 Live / BBC Sounds this week Tuesday at 5:45pm - Club Brugge vs Aston Villa Tuesday at 8pm - PSV Eindhoven vs Arsenal Wednesday at 8pm - PSG vs Liverpool Thursday at 5:45pm - Real Sociedad vs Manchester United (UEL)

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to the Football Daily Podcast with me, John Bennett, at the start of what is a huge week of European football. Coming up we'll preview the first legs of the round of 16 Champions League fixtures. On Tuesday, Unai Emery's Aston Villa travel to Club Bruges, who beat Atalanta in the playoffs. Commentary of that game on 5Live at 5.45. Following that game, live commentary of Arsenal's trip to the Netherlands they'll be taking on PSV Eindhoven.

And on Wednesday, Champions League table toers Liverpool go to the French capital, perhaps the tie of the round this against Luis Enrique's Paris Saint-Germain, commentary of that game on five live build up from seven. And as well as that we have a Madrid derby, a clash between Germany's top two and a repeat of a nine goal thriller from the league stage with us to preview the round of 16 the Athletics Rory Smith and former Premier League centre-back Nader Manouar. Great to speak to you both again. Feel free to shout me down here. Let me know if I'm going too far. I think this might be the best set of games we've had in the last 16 of the Champions League for a long time. It's not just me, Nadam don't laugh because

it's not just me saying it. Julian Larrons, Football Daily Regular, your sparring partner from Premier League Sunday, he tweeted after the draw, best Champions League draw ever and he put two exclamation marks as well on that tweet. So are you not convinced? I'm a firm believer in recency bias. You know, I'll be honest, I don't have all the data about all the other ones, but I'd reckon there'd be a few good ones out there. And also for the way that some teams have ended up in this situation, it's for a reason. You know, the teams have to come through the playoffs as such. They haven't been as dominant in

Europe as we would have expected them to. So as a consequence, like the names are there, but the games carry that same level of like impact. We're talking about that Barcelona, I think you say Benfica game, is that actually like a really good game or is it a game that likely Barcelona will win if they actually just learn to not give away four goals a pop? So I love Juul's, I do love Juul's, shout out to Juul's but it's a very big exaggeration and I think it's probably going to get some engagement as well so more pal to him. I hate agreeing with Julian Larrons on anything as a point of principle,

but I can see why he's excited. PSG Liverpool is an outright hum-dinner of a game. Generally, I don't like same-country clashes in European competition. I think they tend to be quite negative and a bit boring, European competition I think they tend to be quite negative and a bit boring. But the thing that was becoming a bit of an issue for the Champions League in the old model, the old format, was that you'd seen so many of the games before that you were kind of used to the combinations of teams. This one feels fresher and in part it feels fresher because you've got those two all-country clashes. You've got the Madrid derby, which I know a few years ago used to happen all the time in Europe. We've not had one for ages. And you've got Bayer, Leipzig 2008, Bayer Munich, which again obviously happens in the Bundesliga famously twice a year, but it hasn't happened

in Europe as far as I know at all. So it feels a little bit fresher, a little bit more of a point of difference. And the other thing, I think the seeding system and the bracket is trying to shape up how it all works. So it might have been in the previous format that Liverpool and PSG would have avoided each other because they might both have won their groups. Now everything feels a little bit more mixed up together and that is quite nice. Let's begin our preview though by focusing on Tuesday's fixtures, two huge games for Spaniards Unai Emery and Miquel Arteta. So first of all Aston Villa travel to Club Bruges off the back of their 2-0 win in the

FA Cup against Cardiff at the weekend. Rory, not been an easy few weeks for Villa but let's focus on the Champions League. How impressed have you been by Aston Villa's Champions League campaign so far? It's hard not to be impressed isn't it? They've kind of taken to it like a duck to water. I think they were helped a little bit by a relatively kind Groupstays lottery draw, whatever it was, but they they sailed through effectively. I know they came eighth in the big meta table but that meant they got automatic qualification which as a team,

one of the lower seeded teams I think is is an incredible achievement They've looked like they belong and that is the the most you can say for a team that hasn't been in this competition for 40 years Natham is there a bit of pressure though now particularly after January I mean those signings they've made so many that they can't fit them all in in the in the Champions League squad But you've got a sentio, Rashford, Disarsey coming into this squad. Is there a bit more pressure, a bit more expectation than there was before the transfer window?

It depends if we're talking about say the fan base themselves or people like us talking about them from a distance. I think U-Niamar himself is somebody who has felt very very comfortable being in Europe because we've seen him be successful in Europe with different sides before and I think that's made a big difference in terms of how they were in Europe last year in the Europa League and how they've sort of acquitted themselves in the Champions League this year. I think the bigger issues have come with the way that they bounced back after a Champions League midweek game, I think they've tended to lose those games afterwards and given the fact that we're heading towards the end of the season and I think they're

languishing in 10th in the Premier League and even though it's only a few points away from being in the top four, top five, you know, that will be a concern for them but the players that are there they have a belief that they can go and be successful and for the tie that they have against club brugge again I'll do say club brugge is it brugge? I was going to ask this I go club brugge but the official Rory says how much Rory's energy the official one's club brugger isn't it yeah officially it's club brugge and I think that the fans say Brugge, I think it's that side of Belgium. I say Club Brugge because I'm 42 and far too old to change my habit.

What do you make of that though Rory? Do you think there's a bit more pressure on Villa, a bit more expectation? They're in a slightly weird position Villa because Nadam's completely right. Their lead position is probably the concern. It looks to me an awful lot like Villa have been built to become a team that qualifies regularly for the Champions League. And to do that you obviously need to finish in the top four, probably the top five this season the way it's going.

And although they are only a few points off, so it's hard to say their season's been a real disappointment, there are so many teams fighting for those positions that every point is going to count over the course of the last what three months of the season. And to an extent being in the Champions League probably makes that harder but at the same time you wonder whether look this is what they're in it for you want to have those grand nights at Villa Park, you want to be playing the biggest teams in Europe, you know there's a potential quarterfinal there if they get past Bruges of Liverpool or PSG, which would be an astonishing achievement and a brilliant occasion. They should have the depth to cover it. The problem is maybe that they are, if they don't make

it back into the Champions League next season, then they suddenly have an extremely expensive squad to sustain without Champions League revenue. And that might be a little bit more of a problem for them. A lot of talk about Rashford coming in but Asensio has stolen the headlines hasn't he, Naidum? He's been superb, fantastic against Cardiff the other night. Could he be the key man now for Villa with his experience as well in the Champions League? Yeah I think he certainly could be and it's good to see that he has that energy now he has the

opportunity to go out and try and do it again because I think as we saw previously, you know, very much fallen out favourite, Paris Saint-Germain. So for him to be able to come to Villa, for Villa to be able to afford that type of play as is the case with Rashford as well. I think it's a good spot because they are hungry to make a difference. We're talking about Rashford and, to be fair, De Sassi as well. Players who haven't been playing week in week out for their respective clubs. So now they're coming to a club that's in the Champions League, that's in the quarterfinals of the FA Cup. There's real desire to get back into the Champions League with their league position as well. It's a good place to be. And I think, you

know, the point you made it right at the start about finishing in the top eight, you know, they're playing against Club Bruges and they know the second leg's at home. So whatever the outcome of the first game is, how exciting is that second game? And as Rory said, we're talking about a team that for decades now haven't been in that competition. It's hugely exciting, but the people who are out on the field aren't overawed by the occasion because they've played in big games. They've played in big games in his competition before. So it's massive for them. And I think in Emery, he's... I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching him on the sidelines because he's never flustered. There are usually so many people who are on the other side of the technical box or whatever and they're getting really angry. And Emery's just in

the background like, oh yeah yeah sure sure sure. He's not bothered by anything whatsoever and he's so confident in his plan and when things go well he's so confident in his players because they're gonna do what he wants of them and that tends to bring a positive sort of performance and a lot of time result as well. Here's a quick fire one for both of you. FA Cup or Champions League? They're still in the FA Cup and they've got a real chance, haven't they, with all the big sides having gone out. So what do you think the priority should be?

From a fan perspective and within the club? I'm a romantic, so I think football is about moments and the one thing that quite a lot of the teams left in the FA Cup haven't had for a long time is a trophy. And winning a trophy, even if you think it's not necessarily the trophy you really want, is an incredible moment. It's a thing that fans cherish and talk about for generations. You pass it on to your kids and your kids' kids and all that stuff. So I think romantically Villa should be thinking we can win the FA Cup. We can win a major competition for the first time I think since what the League Cup in 95? is that Villars last major trophy? 96 I think. 96, my memory is not what it once was as previously advertised, I'm very old. 42 aren't you? It starts going at sort of

40 now, but I think economically the club have to focus on the Champions League. It's such a gamble that they won't get back into the Champions League next season because such a gamble that they won't get back into the Champions League next season because the competition is so fierce. Not just having a bad season, they're not, they're doing perfectly well, it's just there's a really strong competition for getting into the top four slash five. I think that's now, that income, that revenue stream which is crucial given Villa's expenses, you know they've got one of the, I think by some distance the highest wages to turnover ratio in the Premier League. Rashford and Asensio, it's

smart because they're only on loan, but they are expensive players to, you know, their wage bill is massive compared to their income. I think they have to maximise how much money they're making from the Champions League. So my guess is internally at Villa they'll be thinking we need to get as far as we can as far as possible in this competition partly for the glory of it and the fun of it but also kind of for raw economic effects. And John that is Rory's short answer. So what I would say is I think if you asked most of the fans and obviously I don't know them like that but if you ask them which one are they more likely to believe they can win I think they'd say the FA Cup. I think the Champions League is a great adventure and maybe in years to come they can have true

aspirations of winning it like they have done historically but they know the team's left in a FA Cup competition and they know they're good enough to be able to beat anybody in there. So I would say the FA Cup because the chance to play at Wembley and to live silverware, for some people that's once in a lifetime isn't it. And a word on Club Bruges because they had a dodgy penalty which helped them in the first leg against Atalanta. But over the two legs. Generous, very generous. Probably the worst decision I think I've ever seen.

It's got to be up there. It's got to be in the top three. But I thought they were excellent. I didn't see much of the second leg, but the first leg I saw, they deserved the win. I know they got the win in strange circumstances, but I was really impressory with Club Bruges and of course they beat Aston Villa didn't they? Again with a dodgy goal this time with Tyrone Minks picking up the ball. That strange decision to pick up the ball and give them a penalty. But do you think they can cause Aston Villa a few problems? Yeah my controversial opinion is I think that Bruges should probably have let Villa score. Oh, Rory!

Say it, say it, kick it off radio, don't do this. I've argued about this before, but I think it's dishonourable to win a game like that. I have seen Brews live this season, I want to see them play sporting. Raphael Onyedika, the central midfielder, is brilliant. He is coming to a club near you soon, I would guarantee that. There's a temptation, I I think to kind of dismiss them a bit because they're Belgian, it's not a major league because they're kind of around the Champions League a lot, they never really do anything, they tend to play in a very kind

of workman-like, industrious way. The stadium itself is actually really British, there's a lot of flags that are kind of the Union Jack but the red is replaced by black to match the colour of the club. A lot of the songs are in English, a lot of the banners are in English. It's a real kind of English feel. They don't feel like a big glamorous European name, but they do have a lot of very good young players. So they've got two full backs matching to Kuiper and a player I'm going to call Joaquin Sayes. I'm pretty sure you don't pronounce his first name Joaquin,

but I don't know how else to pronounce it. It's spelt like Joachim Phoenix, I guess. They're both pretty good on your Dita, as I say. And then Chelmsley and Talby who stored the two goals in Birdimo to beat Atalanta. Beating Atalanta is no mean feat. You've got to be a good team to do that. So they do carry a threat, Bruges, but I don't think over two legs they can beat Villa. Yeah, Talby, I was really impressed by him.

Looking forward to seeing how he does against Aston Villa. So live commentary of Villa's trip to Club Bruges or Club Brugge, depending on which way you're going to go. 5.45 on 5Live and BBC Sounds. Reaction to follow on the Champions League debrief on the Football Daily Feed. Let's move on to the second English club in action on Tuesday night. A difficult couple of weeks in the Premier League. Have seen Arsenal's title hopes all but come to an end.

But Michael Arteta's Arsenal face a trip to second-placed Eredivisie side PSV Eindhoven. So let's go through this then. Arsenal lost on penalties against Manchester United in the FA Cup, crashed out of the Carabao Cup, that defeat against Newcastle. They lost to West Ham, draw against Forrest. It's now 13 points, the gap to Liverpool in the Premier League.

Nadum is it fair to say that the Arsenal season really is on the brink of collapse going into this game? That is a great question. I suppose that's the whole cup half full, half empty type thing because I think for Arteta and I think as is the case with quite a few managers at this point in the season, your objective objectives become very, very clear. One, some of the ones that you thought you had before are no longer there. And for them, I think if Arteta manages to be the manager that gives Arsenal a chance to play in another Champions League final, because the last one was a while ago, gives

them a chance to be in with a chance of winning one, then that's huge success. And for them to be playing against PSV who are obviously a good side, but a PSV side that based on the first half of the season have fallen off just a little bit and with the home advantage that Arsenal have in the second leg. I don't think it's necessarily a case of being on the brink of collapse I think it's more so an opportunity for them because the league itself I think most people if not everyone would just admit that basically that's done but they have a real chance in the Champions League as good a chance as anybody else because as we've seen, any results are possible and if they sort of find a way to find good football and to be defensively solid like they have been throughout the competition

so far, they'll be in with a good chance. Obviously the discussion is about the goals and so on, but you know goal difference at this point doesn't really matter, it's just about winning the tie across two legs. So I think I see it more as an opportunity for Arsenal. I know some people will be down on them because they don't have the history of it, but who's to say that they don't have the history of it But who's to say that they can't do it like who's to say that this PSV side are gonna be the side They're gonna go and dominate them and who knows what comes next if Arsenal get through I think if they can find form find a bit of belief And get the fans believing that they can go and do something then I think it really sort of like now as you focus

And yeah, the Champions League is here We're in the last win the last rounds of it and I believe that we can make it to that final, so why not believe? Is that really possible though, Rory, with all the injuries? I mean, you guys, we've spoken so many times, haven't we, about all the injuries and attack? Jesus, Havett, Martinelli, Saka,

is it really possible? With a full squad, they'd definitely be in contention to win the whole thing, wouldn't they? It feels like an open Champions League, but without those players, Saka, Martinelli probably back for the quarter-finals if they make it. Without them, you can't see them going out all the way, can you? It's tricky because I don't want to be patronising towards PSV. They should have enough to get past PSV even with the injuries, to be perfectly honest. PSV are good, they play some really

nice attacking stuff, they've got some really talented players, I think Noah Lang stood out in the game against Juventus in the last round, Joao Mbaka-Yoko is a player of huge promise in the Netherlands, they've got a few as well as a bit of experience in Ivan Perisic, Luke De Jong, they've got the brilliantly named Ryan Flamengo, my favourite footballer, but Arsenal should still have enough. It might not be a kind of swashbuckling attacking performance that carries them past PSV, but it will be difficult for PSV to score against Arsenal because they are so solid at the back. But then, yeah, if you get the Arsenal that performed against West Ham or against Forrest

in the last couple of weeks, that team can't win the Champions League. If Saka and Martinelli come back start of April for the quarterfinals, that suddenly gives them a bit of a push. I think they're in the bracket with the two Madrid teams. So it'd be a challenging quarterfinal, but you know, Real haven't been all that this season. Atletico, difficult but not impossible to beat for Arsenal. And then suddenly you're into the semi-finals. And what you may find if Arsenal can get that far is that Arsenal have got Sacher and Martinelli making up for lost time and yeah, by that stage you can probably safely say the lead might have gone. I think it's too early to say that. I certainly don't

think Michael Arteta can approach it thinking the lead has gone at the moment. But by that stage if it is their last shot at silverware, you can throw everything at the Champions League and that's when Arsenal become a real threat. I think the tricky bit for Arsenal, and this again I don't want to dismiss PSV, is probably getting through that quarter-final. If Sakura and Martinelli aren't fully fit, they won't be fully ready, you've got a really good team, either of the Madrid teams will be a real challenge. That's the danger point for Arsenal I think. But I agree, they look to me like a team that could win the Champions League.

Yeah, just to jump in on that, Rory, because I think you've made a point there, which I believe is a valuable one whenever we talk about teams and how well or how badly we think they could do. Obviously a lot of people are down on Arsenal because we've seen a downturn in form, but then they immediately pass that over to PSV, like PSV will beat them, without any knowledge of PSV at all, or their situation, or whether or not on a player-to-player basis they can afford to be the better team and even as you mentioned there with the Madrid teams, Real Madrid of course they'll win but why will

they win because there are upsides to the way that Arsenal play which make it difficult for sides to play against them and then especially across two legs with the fact that say if they do make it through and say they play Real Madrid then they'll have the second leg at home as well. I think these are positives that do exist, but we're so quick to jump on the negatives of one particular team that we forget to look around at everything else as well. And we look at a name of a team and say, yeah, they're great. But maybe they're not great because they haven't been as good as, say, we would have expected them to be to this point. And once it's a cup competition, it's two legs.

As you said, like, they might have a West Ham type performance in one game, but they need to have it in two games for them to really be out of hope in terms of getting through to the next round. Do they need more though from Martin Odegaard so he registered four assists in four games after returning from injury in November since then 12 Premier League games just one more assist and one goal is it going under the radar that he isn't really producing as he should be at the moment, Rory? Well, I think there's probably mitigating circumstances. I'll

demur to Nedim on this, but I think the mitigating circumstances is the lack of attacking options that he's working with and it does feel increasingly like kind of Arsenal's whole creative output now rests on Odegaard's shoulders, and that's not only a lot of pressure for him, it's also kind of a big flag for the opposition. They know that if you shut Odegaard down, if you can double up on Odegaard, triple up on Odegaard, then you've got a decent chance of kind of stymie all of Arsenal's attacking play. That's much harder to do if you're also meant to be doubling up on Saka and doubling up on Martinelli and doubling up on Havard, because at some point you run out of footballers.

Whereas if it's just Odegaard left standing, I presume, kind of a numbers game to an extent, you can try and shut him down. You can devote your resources to shutting him down without having to worry quite so much about Michele Marino or Leandro Trossard or even Nwuneri, who's been brilliant but is still a 17 year old kid. If you've got Saka and Martinelli there as well then that poses a different set of questions. So from my perspective with that, you know the numbers game thing that Rory says is spot on, you know, if somebody, if the two players on one player then somebody else is free somewhere

that's just the way that it works but I don't think teams are necessarily doing that for us and I think that what Older Guard offers at times is to help them get up the field, he'll drop a bit deeper to try and get the ball and send it out wide and so on. And his link up play is still there. I think he's very good at initiating the press when they're out of possession as well. But we sometimes, and I learned this like, it was just over a decade ago, the importance of this stat, we can look at the people who have the most assists or we can look at the people

who create the most chances. Because if somebody created a load of chances for me, the chances are, they're not coming away with a lot of assists. But the fact is they're still creating they'll create chances nonetheless So I think if there's a downturn in terms of the chances that he creates some bit might be to do with the fact that maybe He's not passing it to Saka anymore Who's as that who's the most dynamic say right forward that they have on that side and so on? But if he stops creating chances then Arsenal aren't creating chances full stop, which means that's a bigger issue

But if it's just a measure of like how many assists that you have again I think that misses the point because we also believe that Arsenal overall are missing too many chances as opposed to in my opinion like in creativity. I feel like I'm being really negative here. Well maybe you are Jon. I think I am. I'm gonna ask this question anyway. You guys again can shout me down. How damaging would it be for Michael Arteta if they went out in the last 16 after everything that's happened over the last few weeks? Oh my gosh. That is... Yeah, well you take that grenade, I'll wait.

Yeah, with this one, with it being PSV, I think it would be really damaging. Look, I think if they lose a quarter-final to Real Madrid, a lot of people will say, well it's quite unlucky getting Real Madrid in a Champions League quarter-final. I mean, it's quite unlucky getting Real Madrid in the Champions League quarterfinal. I mean it's quite unlucky getting Real Madrid at any point in the Champions League. You need somebody else to beat them and then you can try and win the Champions League. But I think against PSV it would be damaging. As I say I don't think Arteta can approach it as though the league has gone. I don't think that's a luxury available to him. I think they have to at the very least make sure they are there in case Liverpool do get jittery. But if they

were to miss out on the Champions League at this stage against an opponent that most fans would expect them to beat, it does create this impression maybe that this season has tailed off and that it turns what has been a broadly positive momentum under Ateta just makes it a little bit more sour. But that said, I think most people, most reasonable people would say with Arsenal, you can point to the injuries, that's where things change. I think that's a valid mitigating circumstance. Yeah, I would agree.

I would say from what I've seen of Arsenal, like the criticism that they receive externally is far greater than the ones which they have within the stadium itself. Obviously, they would have liked their team to be winning more games and winning in a more convincing manner, but they know that the injuries have affected the team in a great way this season. They dip in form for certain players and so on but I think the point you made there as well where you mentioned the word belief and that's so key I feel in these final stages of

the competition because you mentioned Real Madrid like there are so many years when you see them lift the trophy at the end and you wonder well how did they get there and sometimes it's just through those little moments when teams go to the Benabeu and all of a sudden like Real Madrid are pushing, you hear the crowd up. I remember clear as day a few years ago, there was a sign which the Real Madrid fans had up before the second leg against Man City at home

and they were a goal down. And the T4, whatever it was called, said another magical day for the Kings of Europe. And this was before the game, Rory. I was like, okay, cool. Cool, this is where we're at. This is who they are. And for Arsenal, like obviously Arteta is disappointed

with the way that season's going, but there's still something there. And if he can keep that belief himself, keep the belief in the players, like I don't think the fans should be down on him too much because you know, when you're missing star boy in the right wing, for example, it's going to make a difference.

And another word on PSV Eindhoven, they're doing it for the 30 somethings, aren't they? This elderly attack. So Ivan Perisic, 36, Luke de Jong, 34. Then you've got Lang or Bakioka who bring the average age of the front three right down. But it's fantastic to see Perisic still delivering at the top level. What a career he's had. He's still the key player in this team, isn't he? Yeah, especially after what he's been through, because I think he thought his career was over. He went back to Croatia presumably for kind of an autumn, you know, twilight

spell back in his homeland and did his ACL and I think he thought that was that and a lot of players given the career he's had would probably have called it a day. He said look this is really hard to come back from an ACL, I'm not going to do it again, I don't have the energy, you know, what's the upside at 34, 35 and not only has he come back, he has come back and is now scoring world class goals in the Champions League. It is, he's had an incredible career, Perisic. But I would, I'd single out Lion as well as a danger man for Eindhoven. I think there was, I think he was in the Dutch squad in 2022 and was tasked with replicating

Messi in training before the, before the Argentina game. We've all done that. And have you done that as well? Yeah, I did that before. I didn't do it well but I tried. You did a decent job didn't you? Because they did alright in that game. They did, they did, they did alright. They didn't win, obviously Fate was smiling on Leo that day. It was, it may be that you know Messi realised that he'd been impersonated by Noel Ananott, by Nedam Anuwe and took

great inspiration from that. But he's a good player and back to Yoko as well, they've got some really exciting, talented players. Peter Bosz plays adventurous, expansive football, they'll have a go at Arsenal. Live commentary of PSV Eindhoven against Arsenal from 8 o'clock on 5 Live and BBC Sounds and reaction to follow on the UCL debrief on the football daily feed. So let's move on to another game on Tuesday night. The first leg in a round of 16 Madrid derby, Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid. A repeat of a couple of finals 2014 and 2016. They're in this great battle, three-way battle at the top of La Liga as well. Barcelona involved in that title race. This weekend Real Madrid lost to Betis. Atletico

beat Athletic Bilbao. The highlight of that game, did you see this you two? Diego Simeone celebrating like Atletico Madrid had scored a goal when Conor Gallagher put in a couple of sliding challenges. It was a brilliant moment to see Diego Simeone being so happy that Conor Gallagher is sliding in with those tackles. Did you ever have a manager, Nadam, who celebrated you making a tackle? Yeah, but it tended to happen where we were under a lot of pressure to be honest. Sometimes they actually just want to see good football, but at times especially for the way that Simeone is and the way that Letzka Madrid are playing in his image as such.

Those things can be celebrated. They do have good players, they can score great goals, but sometimes that's the energy you need. They can be in a hostile team and make teams feel uncomfortable. Conor Gallagher doing that, it doesn't just set the tone for the manager and the crowd, it's like the other players on the pitch as well, like, I will do that with you, I will go next. It's good to see that you can have that impact and for someone like Simeone to be doing and having Conor Gallagher being celebrated,

the fans will always buy into him if the manager loves him and those moments make a big difference. How much will this tie be about Diego Simeone's tactics, Rory, and stopping this amazing Real Madrid attack or am I being unfair? Is it about Atletico Madrid's attack? Because they have got a fantastic squad after the signings they made in the summer. You look at their bench, it's one of the best squads left in the competition. Yeah, they really went for it in the summer.

I mean, signing Julián Álvarez for sort of 80 million euros by Atletico Madrid's standards, that is a massive signing. We get a little bit blase about stuff like that in England, but for Atletico that's a huge commitment. And then you've paired him with Antoine Griezmann who looks, I don't want to say rejuvenated, I'm not quite sure he was ever dejuvenated, but he's very much being the best form of Griezmann at the moment. They seem to have a real understanding, they carry a real threat.

They've got some young players coming through, Ricalme is fantastic, they have that same grit that Atletico de Madrid, the Diego Simeone side always have, with a real kind of edge of silk as well, the steel and the silk is how, as a pretentious journalist, I would phrase it. The bite, the energy, the kind of dynamism, all that stuff will always be there from a Simeone team, always be there from Atleti against Real. The question I think is psychological is Atletico have drawn with Real Madrid twice this season already, there's no real gap between them in terms of quality, they are roughly as good as each other. I think Atletico have only lost once in any competition since October, they are flying. It's slowed down a little bit recently, they're

drawing quite a lot of games, but they are going really, really well, as you say, right in the thick of the title race with Barcelona and Real. But it's the Champions League, it's a Madrid derby, and Atletico Madrid in the back of their minds, they know how that ends, and it isn't pretty. If they can overcome that, I think they can be more than a match for Real Madrid. Does this Real still look a little bit unbalanced, a little bit kind of uncertain of what they want to be? There are great moments, they destroyed Manchester City a couple of weeks ago, but at the same time, they go to better and drop points. They are not perfect, but they do have a psychological edge on Atletico. Football has been dominated by Manchester City. Eight Premier League titles, six League Cups, three FA Cups, one Champions League.

And they're both free! And more than a hundred charges. Somebody turned up at the Etihad Stadium and effectively served papers. I'm Clive Myrie and this is Football on Trial. The Manchester City charges. They believe they've got irrefutable evidence. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is Five Live Sports.

The Football Daily Podcast. So onto Wednesday's standout fixture, first place in France against first place in England, Paris Saint-Germain against Liverpool. What a game this will be. Is it unfair that Liverpool finished top of the league stage? They do so well in that massive league stage and their reward is meeting probably the informed team in Europe right now because Paris Saint-Germain, after struggling in that league stage, I had to apologise to Julien Laronz at one stage on Euroleagues because

I predicted they'd go out and then they started playing really well. But suddenly they look like a brilliant team and Rory, this is Liverpool's reward playing Paris Saint-Germain. It's a little bit unfortunate. I mean it's the nature of a knockout competition. Sometimes you get a rough draw and it happens. So it's not, I don't think there's any, no one needs to take it to the court for arbitration of sport, do they? But I do wonder whether it might have a bit of a knock-on effect next season. I've been really interested this season in terms of how teams deal with the format, with

the format shift. I think overall it's probably been quite positive. Partly it's been positive because it's different and teams are having to work it out. I think the slight danger is in years to come that teams who look like they're pretty sure they're going to finish in the top eight, rather than pushing on and trying to win all their games until round six, round seven, round eight, to try and finish as high up as possible, they might look at it and think, well Liverpool got PSG, so if there are teams underperforming, as Nedim said earlier,

if there are teams underperforming in the middle of the table, probably not that much point trying to finish higher. If you're pretty confident you're gonna finish in the middle of the table. Probably not that much point trying to finish higher. If you're pretty confident you're going to finish in the top eight, you might as well send out the reserves and give you, as you've seen the players arrest because you'd much rather put it this way, you'd much rather have Aston Villa's draw than Liverpool's. This is going to be really tough, isn't it, Naidum, for Liverpool? I mean, we're looking at Ousmane Dembélé at the moment. He's actually in a rivalry with Mohamed Salah, I'd say, for the most informed players in

Europe right now. So Salah's got'd say, for the most informed players in Europe right now. So Salah's got 30 goals, 21 assists across all competitions. Dembele, 20 goals in his last 14 games. Suddenly Usman Dembele is starting to fulfil that potential that we all knew he had. Yeah, and it's good to see. I think Luis Enrique has spoken to him. He's made him the star as such and played him in a central role and it's basically, it's really suited him and the team around him as well and other people have been able to thrive at the same time. And it is going to be a very, very tough time, you know, this is because like PSG have found form, but what I would say where I sort of differ from you, John, is when they were lower down in the, in the table as such in the first probably five or six match weeks of the Champions League It was because they weren't scoring enough goals defensively

They were quite solid and there were some games where they were creating a lot of chances weren't they exactly and they were few There were a couple of games where they felt they were robbed and they should have won I think one was possibly at let's go Madrid at home So they were sick they were feeling some disappointments But the performances were there and I think sometimes when we look at football you need to really look at performances Not just results because sometimes you can find teams in positions, which maybe don't really show where they're at as a club, both in a positive and negative manner. But for Liverpool, I understand what we're always saying in terms of trying to figure out next season what teams are going to try and do,

but then also because of the random nature of it, maybe when you're in the top eight, maybe the last two games you play might be against softer sides anyway. So as a consequence, that could make more sense because you could win a game with say people who don't play very often on a week to week basis. But it's going to be very, very interesting and I think Liverpool in some ways are unfortunate that's happened. But there won't be many people that believe that to win a Champions League you just try and get as many easy games as you can and knock out rounds. That stuff is possibly happening in group games and it's going to be a tough test. But once they beat them, if they do beat them, that's one of the tougher teams eliminated from the competition and how many more of those are going to be left off the disround.

How concerned should Liverpool be Rourie by this upturn in form of Paris Saint-Germain? Where do you see their main strength? I think their midfield is fantastic but obviously at the moment it's their front three which is getting the headlines, not just Dembele but Barca as well, Douay is playing really well. And then they've got Richard Caracstelia to throw in as well, which is not a bad extra option. What a great addition to have, yeah. And he's scored a couple of goals already since moving from Napoli, a player who has

got a good record, well I say a good record, he's played Liverpool twice and I think he won once but he won pretty spectacularly, destroyed Trent Alexander-Arnold in what was then the San Paulo is now across the Diego Armando Maradona Stadium which is not as catchy. I suspect he'll start on the bench but I'm not certain, I don't know Luis Enrique's team sheet from this distance. But Barca has been brilliant, Dembele looks like he's fulfilling the promise he's had for about 10 years and it's taken a really long time with his man Dembele to see what made him such a sensation as a teenager. You know, Dortmund, he was good, got the move to Barcelona probably far too early, never

really worked out for him there. PSG, he's flickered in and out of the team, kind of suffered a little bit from being in Mbappe's shadow maybe, but now looks like Luis Enrique has unlocked something in him. And then you've got Farris Gellier to come in, Douay's been superb, I thought Douay was superb against Manchester City. He was taken off relatively quickly which really surprised me. They carry a load of threat, I agree about them in the field, I think João Neves is fantastic. I think Vitinha is a wonderful footballer to watch, really busy and kind of industrious, keeps things ticking over. The experience of people like Marquinhos in defence, Ashraf Akhimi I think might be the best right back in the world. PSG are a genuine threat. They are a serious team. There is absolutely no reason why they can't win this competition.

And yeah, it will be a real test for Liverpool and Edmonds, right? If Liverpool get through, then they can look at it and say, well, you know, we've beaten PSG, they're one of our contenders, one of our rivals to win this competition. But equally, I think there's every reason to believe that if PSG beat Liverpool, the leaders of the Premier League, they may well look at it and think, okay, there is nothing left for us to fear in Europe. So eight o'clock on Wednesday for this one, live on Five Live and BBC Sounds full commentary. So onto another big one on Wednesday night, the top two in Germany, head to head Vincent companies Bayern Munich against Xabi Alonso's Bayer Leverkusen.

And this is the stat that stands out for me. Xabi Alonso undefeated as Leverkusen manager against Bayern Munich, six games games no defeats. They've had four meetings already this season So Leverkusen won in the cup. There was a 1-1 There was a 0-0 in the league and in that one Bayern didn't have a shot on target They had just two attempts on goal against Bayer Leverkusen Is there a psychological problem? They didn't that Bayern Munich seemed to have against Leverkusen there's something about this isn't there? I know that they're eight points ahead in the Bundesliga, they're running away with the title, but they've really struggled

against Javi Alonso. Yes and no, yes and no. I think the Bayern Munich side of things, as you look at last year, it was a different manager, it was a different feel to the team, it was a Bayern Munich side that wasn't top of Bundesliga come the end of the season, and it was Leverkusen's side that, as most of Bundesliga come the end of the season and it was a Leverkusen side that as most of us know went the season undefeated in their domestic campaign so I don't think it's that and then even this year I'll be honest I didn't see the first game but I did see the first league game at Bayern where Leverkusen suffered and I remember speaking was lucky enough to speak to Javi Alonso after the game in an interview and he said he saw character

from his team because he knew that they weren't able to play anywhere near as well as they would have hoped to in terms of an attacking threat. They came away with a draw, but they were delighted with the draw. I think it was Granit Xhaka as well after the game was saying like, you know, we need to, we had to be defensively good, we had to show something and so on. And it's almost like the equal opposite to the amount of suffering that Bayern Munich faced when they played Leverkusen just a few match weeks ago. So I don't think it's a psychological thing as such. I think Javi Alonso could say to his players, you know, you guys can compete against these and so on and so forth, but Bayern Munich are Bayern Munich and when they're playing against any side from Germany, I think their history in itself carries probably a lot more weight than Javi Alonso's does in the last two seasons in my opinion. I think it's going to be a really interesting tie, especially with the

fact that Leverkusen will be playing, I think, at home in the second leg, as opposed to Bayern doing that, which we've historically seen for them in the knockouts. I'm not going to buy into it too much, and it's good to see two young managers on the sideline for two clubs who have real aspirations to be successful and to perhaps go all the way and win the competition in that final in Munich in a few months' time. That's a massive factor, how much Bayern want to win this Champions League because the final is in Munich. But it is really finely balanced, as you say, like Leverkusen, I think we'll go into it. Nadem's right that Bayern's history against all the German teams must

have a bit of an impact. But it's not a hard argument for Xabi Alonso to make to his players. Look, this team can't beat you. They lost the lead to you last season. They haven't beaten you this season. You are a match for them. You can be more than a match for them. There is no reason to have an inferiority complex. And that I think is what makes it such an interesting tie despite the fact that it is

an all country, all Bundesliga game, is that you assume that Bayern should have the psychological edge, top of the Bundesliga, all those titles, all that history, used to kind of throwing their weight around in Germany. Leverkusen at the moment, there's no real reason for them to feel like they should play second fiddle. They are, you know, there's a decent gap in the Bundesliga table. But a lot of that is just Leverkusen had a really slow start. They dropped points early. Bayern have been kind of grinding points out more than anything, I think. They looked quite good against Frankfurt a couple of weeks ago when Harry Kane wasn't

playing. They looked like they had a bit more mobility in their forward line. You've got the threats of Sane and Musiala that does give them a real kind of edge. But Leverkusen will know, they have ample material proof that there is nothing to fear from Bayern. So it should be fascinating and I wonder whether the historical advantage that Bayern have for their power and their size is cancelled out by the second-lead bean in Leverkusen. Let's quickly look at a couple of the other games, fine-award against Inter. Robin van Persie is the final manager and your second game in charge will be against Inter native in the Champions League.

What an experience for him. Any pressure on him? I guess the pressure is off in this one. Well, I'm sure he put himself under some level of pressure to justify him being in that role and he's not going to say his team wants to just go out there and fail, but they're coming up against a side who will believe that they can win the whole competition. I think they have the best defensive record in the competition so far or if not second best so they're gonna be a tough team to play against

Inter Milan that is and I think for Van Persie credit to him he's got the opportunity whether or not he's ready for it I think time will tell but I think when he's standing alongside the other manager in Inzaghi I think Inzaghi kind of won't be flustered by many moments whereas for Van Persie like you hope that some of the quirks that come with being a new coach, especially on that sort of scene, they don't really affect him too much because his side will need as much help as possible

because I think that's going to be a very, very tough time for them, to be honest. And Barcelona Benfica, are we going to get another five-four? That's one of the best games I've seen for a long time, that game in the league stage. Barca winning it in injury time. I watched that game with Thierry Henry and he was very unimpressed. Name drop, name drop.

Oh look at this, how dare you. He was not... Round your house. Yeah, he just popped round, he often does. No, he wasn't impressed by house. I think he felt it was very pure, I'll, and I'm inclined to agree with him. It was brilliant that football match. I mean, I'd be standard if there's a repeat.

Benfica have been baffling in the Champions League this season because they've had really, really good results, they've had great performances. In Pavlidis they've got one of the stories of the tournament, but at the same time I'm pretty sure they're not very good and they keep defeating loads of goals. So you have to make Barca quite strong favourites to get through, but hopefully Benfica can give them a bit of a challenge. Just before we go, let's briefly look ahead to the Europa League last 16. Manchester United traveling to Real Sociedad on Thursday. Commentary on Five Live from 5.45.

So United's defeat against Fulham in the FA Cup at the weekend means the Europa League is now Ruben Amorim's last chance at gaining silverware this season. After the game against Fulham, Amorim spoke of his desire to win the Premier League with Manchester United for the first time since Sir Alex Ferguson retired. But speaking on Match of the Day, the former United captain and record goal scorer Wayne Rooney pushed back on what Amorim had to say.

The issue maybe of looking too far ahead is what we're seeing over the last 10-15 years is managers are not getting that time. So you have to be a little bit selfish as a manager and say, OK, if I don't do it now, then I might not get that time. And maybe, you know, I think that is a little bit naive to say we're looking to win the Premier League because from where they are now, they're a long way off that. So here's what the Manchester United manager had to say in response. That is the goal.

Naive is to think that we are going to do this season or the best contender for the next season. So I know that in this moment everybody knows everything. I was a pundit when I finished my career so I know it's really easy. Our goal is to win the Premier League. Maybe it's not with me but our goal as a club, the board, is winning the Premier League like we did in the past with all the great glories and the legends of this club. And we want to do better and we know that we are in the difficult moment and I'm not naive. That's why I'm here coaching at 40 years old the Manchester United. These pundit manager back and forths are becoming a theme of the season. You need to get involved, Nadim. You need to call someone

out, have a row with someone. You say that, is that Wayne Rean the pundit or the Wayne Rean the former manager? Depends which way you want to see it. What do you think though, do you think he was being naive with those comments, Amroun? No, no, no. I think, in my opinion, what Amroun is saying is what people who go and join Manchester United and have done in the last few years, when they arrive, that's what the end goal is. I think obviously there'll be other landmarks that they'll need to hit before they get to that stage. But if you don't have that end objective, like you're at the wrong club or such, because

we talk about them so much and everyone discusses them so much because we've seen their past glories. And right now, obviously the journey to get there is a long journey, but it's a journey which they believe that they can do nonetheless. If they didn't believe that, they wouldn't be hiring or bringing people in who they think could help them do that. If it's a case of bringing in players to try and finish in the top 10, they wouldn't be trying to bring in the internationals that they brought in or the people behind the scenes

that they brought in and so on. And say, so Jim Rackley, if some of the costs and stuff that he's making to try and help the club long term, I suppose it's in mind somehow to help them lift the title again. I think for Amrim himself, he understands that. He understands the club. He understands the Premier League and where they're at. And he's not saying they're in a title race. He's saying they aspire to be there at some point in the future.

But in reality, yeah, I don't think it's a problem for Amrim. And I think it's a misunderstanding. And it almost feels like a manufactured fight between the two because deep down, they both aspire for United to do the same thing, which is to be successful again and for them to be lifting Premier League trophies. Yeah, I wonder whether Rooney's point about it's all very well saying you want to win the Premier League by such and such, you know, in the long term and managers don't get that time.

That is absolutely true that there is an element for a Man United manager of kind of making a rod for your own back. If you say that is our ultimate ambition and then in a year's time they're still not in the title race, his job's under pressure, Ruben Amorim goes and he looks like he's failed in his approach. It might be a little bit more like real politic to say our first aim has to be to get back into the Champions League or whatever. I can't say that though. But that's it. Imagine the manager saying that. It's a waste of time. As manager of Manchester United, I think you have to say our aim of this club is to win

the Premier League because otherwise you'll get accused of not understanding the history or not understanding the expectation or the ambition. But either way, the Europa League is kind of central, isn't it? Because they're not getting into the Champions League through the league. If they can qualify for the Champions League by winning the Europa League is kind of central isn't it because they're not getting into the Champions League through the league. If they can qualify for the Champions League by winning the Europa League this season then the money that that produces, the access to players that that gives them is potentially transformational. They can rebuild that squad much more easily if they're in the Champions League than if they're not in Europe at all which is basically the alternative. I wouldn't be shocked to see Amorim now basically use the Premier League as a, you know, put the kids out, put the reserves out, use it as a way to kind of keep people fit or get people fit and put all of your heads in the Europa League basket, because that is the one thing that can save United's season. Live commentary of Real Sociedad against Manchester United on Thursday from 5.45 on 5 Live and BBC Sounds.

Thanks to Rory, thanks to Nadam. I'm still sticking with best ever Champions League last 16 line-up. There's nothing you can say to sway me. That is all we've got time for. Remember you can hear live commentary of all three of the English teams' games in the Champions League this week on 5 Live and BBC Sounds. And on the next episode of the Football Daily podcast, there'll be a Women's Football Weekly and there'll also be a Champions League debrief with all the reaction to Tuesday night's games.