Football Daily - Destination New Jersey: Mexico as hosts & magic for Cape Verde?

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

Mark Chapman and Rory Smith continue the countdown to the 2026 World Cup.Nico Cantor from CBS Sports and Mexican sports journalist Marion Reimers look at Mexico, who will host nine of the tournament��s 104 matches. How will they fare as one of the tournament’s hosts? Can they finally shake off the tag of ‘dark horses’?Former South Africa captain Dean Furman and former Nigeria international Efan Ekoku discuss some of the African teams who may qualify – how are South Africa and Nigeria faring? Plus hear from Cape Verde and Shamrock Rovers defender Roberto Lopes with his country on the edge of qualification for their first ever World Cup.02.40 – Mexico 24.20 – Bigger picture for African teams 43.45 – Cape Verde

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Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. This is the Football Daily podcast with Mark Chapman. So we're 246 days away from the opening match of the 2026 World Cup, which takes place at Estadio Azteca in Mexico City. So we'll find out how Mexico's preparations are going this evening. as one of the co-host. Effanakoku will join us after 8 o'clock.

We'll get the latest from Africa, where this evening, Egypt, have become the 19th team to qualify for next summer. So what's that? Just another 29 to go, Rory? Your maths is better than mine, yeah, 29. But it feels there's a few that are very close already. I think Nagana are almost certain.

So we are reaching the stage where you kind of get a sense of the shape of the field, I think. Okay, so Rory is with us for the next 90 minutes. Mexican sports journalist for TNT Sports Mexico. Marion Riemers joins us. Evening, Marion. Hi, how are you? Nice to meet you guys.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. And this is genuinely astonishing. In Nico Cantor from CBS Sport, who is currently, where he is in the world, it's half past one in the morning. So that is dedication. And on top of that, you're on your honeymoon.

Chappers, Rory, Marion, it's nice to be on with you guys. Well, when you get the call from the BBC, you can't say no, right? Well, I am. I can't think of anybody else, Nico, that I work with regularly who would have interrupted their honeymoon to come and do a show with us. So I am very honored. And you're in Cambodia, are you? Correct. It's actually extraordinary. It's an extraordinary country. Highly recommend for whoever would love to explore Southeast Asia. But yes, it's football's my life, you know. So sometimes you just can't turn off. It's an international window close to a World Cup in the country where I'm from. So I'm excited to be on with you guys. Don't don't feel like you guys are interjecting too much.

I feel, I've got to admit, Chappas. I feel as though if you're in Cambodia on holiday, admittedly your honeymoon, but still on holiday. And it's half past one in the morning. That's not so bad. I think that's okay, to be honest. Right, okay. And Mrs. Smith would have allowed you to interrupt your honeymoon. Absolutely not.

And there we are. So thank you, Nico. Thank you, Marion. Aurora is here as well for the whole 90 minutes. Let's talk, Mexico then. They'll become the first country in history to host three men's World Cups. The tournament's first game on June the 11

will be played at the Azteca Stadium. We've talked about the US. We've talked about Canada already on this series. But, Marian, I suppose the first thing is, as a host country, the usual question, are they ready? How have preparations been going? Is it all on track? Well, that depends on which the criteria for ready is, dear Mark.

So in that regard, Mexico is always ready for a big sporting event. Mexico is a big football country, and it's a mystic. land in which Pele and Maradona have already won World Cup. So there is a very much riding on this third opportunity. In terms of transportation, the airport is undergoing lots of renovations. So people have been complaining quite a lot. You also have to remember that Mexico City right now has two airports since the last government has inaugurated the second one. So that might help out. In terms of the inner communications, I think traveling to Guadalajara and Monterey should be pretty easy. So in that regard, there should be no problems.

But I have been speaking to people on the organizing committee and the representatives of the tourism and the hotel community are a bit worried because everything is already booked. There is a suspicion that Mexico is going to be a hub for many fans coming to the World Cup. they will be using Mexico sort of like their operations center and then traveling to the U.S. and Canada also understanding the traveling situation that is tending to be more and more complex in the U.S. And while we're waiting for the big unveiling of the Estadio Azteca, I was there the other day for the launching of Trianda, the World Cup's Ball. But there was no possibility of accessing the stadium.

So there is a bit of worry. amongst fans in that regard but I think Mexico will be ready and very ready for the World Cup. So the feeling is that Mexico will be used as a base for a lot of fans

will it and that they will travel from there? Yes I was also in communications with the UK Embassy at a couple of events and they are also reaching out to fans and they are developing a big program in terms of

of orienting fans in what they can and cannot do in regards of Mexican culture and traveling. Also with the fact of Monterey being very close to the US border, many would like to use a car to cross the border. They have been advised not to do so and do it by plane. And Nico, I suppose as well at the moment, and maybe this is a case for all three countries, that there's so much uncertainty for every fan base who has qualified already, where they might get placed, that everybody will be booking, I am guessing, and trying to second guess, or at least they have somewhere. Yeah, definitely.

That would be the case. I imagine that at first there's going to be a draw for city clusters, and then the venues will be handpicked. That's what was reported on Argentine TV as of last, in the last couple of days, the beat reporter for the Argentine national team had mentioned that Argentine, for example, should fly to Miami and use Miami as their base. And most likely they're going to get a game on the east coast of the U.S. So it is really difficult to choose where to go if you're traveling halfway around the world

to end up at the World Cup. Just, I mean, think about the geographic area of Canada, Mexico, and the United States. It's so difficult to get around. I mean, a trip from Miami to Seattle might feel like Madrid to Almaty Kazakhstan, now that Almaty Kazakhstan is meant, it's actually technically not. But you get the point, right? It's going to be very difficult. It's difficult from a time perspective and from a money perspective

because getting around the United States, Mexico, and Canada isn't. I would imagine you guys were at the World Cup in Russia, where it was actually difficult. Not every single venue was connected by plane. You had to stop in Moscow to get from Sochi to St. Petersburg. So the connectivity, the physical connectivity, if you will, it's there, right? It's just getting around a massive landmass. I often found at the World Cup in 2018 that my luggage didn't necessarily stop in the same city that I was stopping either.

That was another added bonus to that welcome. Given the travelling that we are talking about, given the logistics, Marion, and sometimes it should be like this for a host country, Mexico will have an advantage, won't they, in the group stages, given what other teams are going to have to go through? Absolutely, absolutely. And in that regard, we should always remember that there is a big particular situation regarding Mexico.

Mexico is the only national team that plays as a local in two different countries, and that is Mexico and the US. So you should not only count Mexico as the country where the Mexican national team will be playing as a local, they will also be doing that in many cities in the US. So in that regard, there is a big advantage, and people are already crazy about tickets, so you can be certain that it will be absolutely packed with Mexican fans. That's really interesting, actually, because one of the issues of the way the tournament is weighted towards the US is that I think Mexico, if they top their group, play the round of 32 at the Azteca, but after that, is there a last 16 game in Mexico City as well? But after that,

if they make it through, and obviously Mexico's had issues with the round of 16 in previous years, then they will be transferred to the United States. But depending on where that game is, although I suspect in most cities in the US, the Mexicans would have pretty fervent backing, basically anywhere. So it is, from their point of view, regardless of where they play the knockouts, it's a home World Cup. And that is very much in Mexico's interest, especially because things are going pretty well for the Mexican national side at the moment. Yes, the Mexican national side. The thing is, you know this very well. Rory Mark and also Nico is very familiar with this. Not playing the qualifiers for the World Cup can be a double-edged sword because it is

difficult for you to prove yourself. Fans have been disappointed with the Mexican national team. It has been very much criticized in the media also because of the system Javier Aguirre is using. They mention it's not a very entertaining team. But Mexico will have friendlies in this FIFA window against Ecuador and also against Colombia, which are very good teams. So I think there is a much more systemic problem.

which has to do with the lack of upcoming talent, but the U-20 is playing very well in Chile. So there are hopes for the youngsters to also be able to make this team and not be the big stars, but start to build a project further down the line. I've always found the Mexican national team fascinating because I think leader MX is the biggest competition that makes no impact in Europe whatsoever.

There is a total blind spot for this massive, massive football country, incredibly like wealthy lead. If you look at the foreigners playing in Mexico at the moment, there are some really big names there. I mean, Andre Pierre Giniak has now been there for 10 years. So he must really love being in Mexico. But Sergio

Ramos is there. Canales is there. There's maybe a dozen 15. Yeah, like high profile European players in Mexico. The standard of play is way higher than we would think it would be in Mexico. But it just, there is no kind of cultural crossover. Nobody in Europe

really watches Leader MX, apart from, I guess, like Mexican ex-pack communities, they don't make the same outreach that other competitions do. It's kind of a self-contained system. The vast majority of the Mexican national team is drawn from the big clubs of Leader MX. So every tournament

that comes around, it's the one team that I think Europeans probably have the least idea how to judge. I think they're maybe the most unfamiliar of the major nations. So how are they by, like, historic standards? Is this a decent addition of the Mexican national team? Is there Are hopes quite high going into the world group?

I'll also let Nico talk about this, but I think hopes are mixed. I think that there are two possible outcomes. Either it's a historic outcome for the Mexican team, reaching something they have never been able to do, or it's going to be catastrophic. There is not a gray area. And expectations are very high because Mexico will be local, Mexico will be playing at home, as you mentioned, also in the U.S.

So Liga Mekis is a very strange phenomenon because it also is a short tournament with playoffs. So in that sense, many critics have mentioned that the competition is not optimal or it's suboptimal. But there is a problem in terms of export, not in terms of import. We have been able to bring big stars such as Ronaldino back in the day, who used to play with Ketero at the time. now you mentioned Canales, Ramos, James Rodriguez, et cetera, et cetera, Dignac, which is, we should call him Regio. Yeah, he's Mexican, but he's from Monterrey, which is a very particular kind of identity.

So the problem is exporting the players, and that also has to do with the self-contained system of very high salaries that cannot compete with the offers or the European offers cannot compete with this. There is the case of Hilberto Mora, which is the next big star, or he's called to be the next big star. He plays for Tijuana, and there have been apparently offers around 6 million euros, and the club wants 20. So it is very difficult for players to leave the country because they are tied to economic, powerful spheres.

And he's 16, isn't he? Yes. Yeah. But the thing is, Nico, with that, isn't it? And you can use either side of the argument to fit whichever narrative you want, which is, one, our league is really wealthy and therefore our players want to stay here and we can't export them and therefore they're only experience in our league. Or Brazil, where seemingly every 14-year-old appears to be snapped up by a Western European club,

either in Spain or Chelsea and then you have that argument on that side. Yeah, I think Brazil's incomparable. I think if I look through the Cambodian League, I'll find the Brazilian. They export talent at an unreal level, right? So Brazil, let's put that apart. What I think is happening in not only League amoeckis,

but Major League Soccer, especially now that there's no relegation. it's that it breeds complacency, right, from the national players, right? The national team players, the Mexicans. Why go abroad when I can get paid really well and still live in Mexico and not sharpen my craft? You ask Chappers and Rory, is this a better Mexican national team as the past? I would say it's much worse, at least from a name's perspective. This is his third stint in charge of the Mexican national team.

And in 2010 and 2002, I think he had much sturdier squads, experienced squads, guys that were playing in Europe, you go down the list and the few that you can find, they're barely scratching the surface at a highly high, like I'm talking about like elite European team. The only one that I think is miles ahead of the rest is Raul Jimenez. Raul leads, he is the face of this Mexican national team. And what Vasco Aguirre has been able to do, and I give him so much credit, because the quality with which the quality that he has is at his disposal compared to his last two stints of the Mexican national team,

he's been able to return that grit, that fight, that bite that the Mexican national team always had. And Marion might have a different opinion because in Mexico, they tend to be a little bit stronger on the national team and seeing at least from the outside, I welcome this. so much. I welcome that El Basco has really managed to give this Mexican national team the seal of national identity, the Nopal, which is very specifically Mexican. It is that seal that categorizes the Mexican national team. Now, are they an incredible football team? I think

there's still a lot of work to do to be able to go past that round of six teams. game that constantly seems to be the hurdle which they stumble at, but from where they were before under Tata Martino, I think the Mexican national team has taken steps forward. So getting through the last 16, Marion, would that be the historic thing that you mean? Yes, I mean, there will always be an asterisk because Mexico has been able to reach the quarter finals previously, but that only happened when Mexico played at home.

So that will be an asterisk below that or under that record, so to say. So yes, Mexico has played incredibly like in 2006 with La Volpe, which I believe has been one of the best Mexican teams in history. It was praised by Wardiola. It was analyzed.

It had Rafa Marquez. It had so many good players. And it had Argentina on the verge. of elimination. And then you had a master strike of Maxi, no? Well, we remember that with tears in our eyes. But then in 2010, we were eliminated by Argentina again. And then it happened in 2014 with the Netherlands.

And then so on, so on, so on. So there is what Nico mentions, which I agree with. Mexico has a different character now, at least under his hand. But I believe that nowadays in modern football, you cannot just rely on that. And that is the big problem. Mexico has no prime matter or talent that can make it compete against teams like England or teams like France or teams like Spain. So it will only be a matter of time for Mexico to start showing flaws.

So you have... Sorry, I was just going to say, just a final one before we are. let you go, Marion, which is the first World Cup I remember was 1982. So I have very, very clear memories of 86. And from 86 onwards, and maybe Rory can correct me from a UK point of view, but from 86 onwards, every World Cup that Mexico have been in, there is always discussion in English media that there'll be the dark horses. I think every single tournament somebody has had them as that kind of, you know, not amongst the favourites, but just, watch out for them. Are they always viewed that way in Mexico?

Not always, I think. It used to be like this. It used to be like this. But it's been more pessimistic in the last couple of years, I believe. And maybe we can compare it with what happens to Belgium. Like, Mexico becomes its own worst enemy. Because Belgium constantly is always regarded as a dark horse. And, oh, they quite never make it, do they? This is getting into really dangerous water chappers But the countries that I think are you about to Are you about to insult another country? I'm going to bring up Turkey

I think there is a thing Between massive passionate football nations With quite large populations And quite a lot of resources And really high expectations at World Cups And the two that are the best examples I think are like historic Mexico And general Turkey

And I do wonder whether as Marion says, whether it's a little bit counterproductive, that the players are operating under too much pressure and too much expectation at home. So by the kind of converse law of football's upside-downness, maybe the fact that Mexico goes into a tournament and everyone's a little bit like, well, Adere's really boring and we don't have any good players,

maybe that's not a bad thing. Yeah, dampens it down. Yeah, a little bit. England, England, half decent at tournaments when we stopped thinking we'd do well, basically. Yeah, I think it's different. I mean, I like how you say Turkey in general versus Mexico historic, because Turkey did have that one dark horse run, but there were signs, right? Turkey does have teams that are competing in top European club tournaments.

Like, Galatas said, I had beat Arsenal, the UEFA Cup in 2000, just a couple years earlier, with Hakkan Shukur, who ended up being the face of that dark horse run in 2002. But I totally get the sentiment. The difference is that they're playing in a euro where they're able to beat Czech Republic in like the last minute and have that dramatic moment

that kind of builds this aura around. We can do it. And Marjona is right. I think sometimes Mexico is their worst enemy in thinking like, you know, you're always the bridesmaid, never the bride. It's like that game against the Netherlands

in 2014, the no-era penal, when Rafael Marquez crosses Aryan Robin inside of the box, and Robin decides to do his best fighter jet impression and, you know, just takes this dive. That lives on in Mexican football lore, no era penal, it wasn't a penalty. That's, to this day, people still reference that. So you never know. maybe they do a repeat of the 1986 at home when Boramilutinovich was the manager of Mexico and hopefully for them it happens because they they like Marion says they are a football mad nation their club teams are steeped in in history they have almost I mean

marion will check me on this but almost like a hundred years of history of a league or at least close to coming up on it. It is an incredible nation from beyond just a football perspective. Marion, we're going to let you go. Thank you very much for being with us. Really appreciate it. Hopefully we will have you on again before the World Cup and then during the World Cup. That would be great.

I'd be delighted. Thank you for your time. And hopefully we'll see you here. We'll have you over for some tacos, maybe some tequila and we'll enjoy Mexico. Yes. Book me in now. That already sounds very different to the Russian World Cup again. Thank you very much, Marion. Marion Reamer is with us, TNT Sports, Mexico. Nico, it's three minutes past two in the morning on your honeymoon. So you go, please. Thank you for being with us.

Thank you, guys. I could stay here chatting football throughout the morning, guys. That would not be great for your marriage. But also, Nico, I don't think I didn't notice. You are going to. to make your wife go to a Cambodian domestic game, aren't you? That is on your, that's on your agenda. Chapters, don't tell anybody. Tomorrow we leave to Hong Kong, and in a couple of days, Hong Kong plays Bangladesh, and she doesn't know it yet. But we are going to an Asian World Cup qualifying game. What, I mean, what a lucky lady. Niko, thank you very much for being with us. Nico Kant, CBS Sports, with us.

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From the headlines to the details that matter Wake up with 5 Live breakfast from 6 And go home with 5 Live Drive from four. Weekdays on BBC Radio 5 Live. This is the Football Daily podcast with Mark Chapman. Now we are at 48 teams at this men's World Cup. It means that up to 10 African nations could take part. Previously it was five. By next week, nine African teams will have booked their place. We're already still with us.

We're also joined by former South Africa Captain Dean Furman and former Nigeria, international Effen, Coco. Even into you both. I'm just going to start with you, Eiffon, because the bigger picture here is we're at the final two games of the African qualifying group stage

in this window. But you look through so many of these groups and the standings, look, there's the odd one, you know, the Morocco are miles clear in their group by about 10 points. But there are so many others where there are still plenty of things to be decided. there are so many permutations though which is great you know for the competition isn't

you know that there are a few what we call I suppose we call second tier nations on the continent that have got great chance Cape Verdi in particular who drew today which means that that probably delays their party but I think you know they'll will get there and a few heavyweights who are doing just that little bit more than sweating aren't they do you think Dean and thank you very much for joining us do you think some of the heavyweights are sweating because they haven't been to this in qualifying before? Good evening, everyone.

It's great to join you. Yeah, I've definitely seen over the last kind of five or so years. I think the gap between the so-called heavyweights of African football to the smaller nations or the lesser-known nations, it's definitely got smaller. You've got the likes of Cape Birdie, as you mentioned before, coming through and doing well in Afghans and really pushing the bigger nations right. to the wine. It's fantastic for African football. We saw the Afcon a couple of years ago that no one's safe. There's upsets everywhere you look. And I think that across these World Cup qualifying

campaigns as well, that's been very much a sign of where African football is at the moment. Are there geographical discrepancies as well here, Effan, in that, and we'll talk more North African countries later, but they appear to be very successful. Other areas, I don't know, Western Africa, is that struggling a bit more? or can you not lump them into sort of geographical areas? Well, historically, the power base has been in West Africa. Certainly, let's say in the last sort of 25 to 30 years. Egypt have always been there or thereabouts.

I mean, they won three consecutive Afcons, 2006, 8 and 10, I think it was. So they've always been a powerful nation and a won seven overall. But certainly, you know, the players who've progressed to Europe and have always been, you know, the leading lights for Africa. Africa in Europe have generally come from Western Africa. You know, there have been a few good players, of course, from North Africa over time and, you know, some big players now, Hakemi and Sala, you know, to name two.

And the odd player, you know, from South Africa, well, you know, quite a few, you know, during the 90s, but generally speaking, you know, most of the best players have come, you know, from Western Africa. And now, you know, some of the not-so-famous nations, perhaps got. you know, better infrastructure, one or two players have progressed to Europe that has been able, you know, to increase, you know, the eyes and the finances, I suppose, in those nations. I suppose when you have less resources in terms of, you know, the playing pool, I suppose you focus more, don't you, on the infrastructure as a result of that?

You get lots of kids who can find a way through, know that there's a big opportunity for them, less pressure at home. As a result, you know, you know, that's one of the reasons, you know, but many of the things have contributed to lead them to close their gap on the bigger nations, but still, usually when we get to the final stages

of our time to qualify for the World Cup, it's the same, you know, three, four nations that have got there, but, you know, this time around with the extra places next year and it means that there's a great chance for some of those smaller nations to progress and show themselves, you know, for the first time at the World Cup. We talked about this previously, didn't we,

Chapas in terms of Asia with Jordan and Uzbekistan who both qualified for the first time. And it does, there is a thing going on. And as Afan and Dean say, it's certainly the case in Africa. But I think it's probably more widespread that I don't know what the nice term for it. Mid-tier nations, middle-weight nations is maybe the nicest way of putting it. Teams that historically would have needed a couple of the, you know, the superpowers to fall apart to stand any chance of qualifying do seem to have been inspired by the that there's more slots available that I think

you have to credit to FIFA as much as the debate over whether a 48 team World Cup is a good idea or not will continue to rumble on. That does seem to have been one of the consequences. But we spoke to Gabrielle Zachiani in one of these shows in May and I spoke to him again this week or last week. And he was saying

that he does a lot of work with the Congolese FA and that Congo's facilities now, their infrastructure is of a really high quality. And I think, you know, when Gabriel joined up with Congo for the first time 20 years ago that almost certainly was not the case that they weren't he said that when he in his first training session everyone was training in their club training kit from whatever team they

they played for whereas now everything is it's a you know it's a fully professional environment and I think that has helped countries that have previously struggled to to develop players to attract players to keep players and to perform a lot of that stuff is is the same across the board now really And, you know, you look at Benin, who were top of, sorry, I fan, Nigeria's group. Yeah. And, I mean, Benin is next door to Nigeria and they're a lot smaller. But the manager of Benin is Geronaut Roar, who used to be manager of Nigeria. And, you know, they have obviously been able to attract a manager with, you know, a good track record in Africa to take charge of their national team.

And also as well, guys, you know, the name Set Blatter is not very popular. But when Blatter was in charge, he made it his man. mandate or part of his mandate was to make sure that as much money went to some smaller nations through Africa, throughout Oceania, through Asia, throughout the Caribbean, you know, Concaf, to make sure that these smaller nations have the facilities, you know, to put, or the money to put the facilities in place, so young kids, both boys and girls could play, you know, facilities for pitches, for training grounds, for education, etc., etc., etc. So while he was much maligned, you know, for different reasons, lots of personal vendetta's

an agenda against him. He made sure, you know, his words were football is for the world. Football does not belong to Europe. Football does not belong, you know, to North America. It doesn't belong to South America. It belongs to everybody. As a result, yes, he was trying to get votes, of course. Everybody knew that. But he made sure that there were things put in place that everybody got a first share or first slice of the cake. As a result of that, we see nations Africa. I'm not sure about Oceania and, of course, South America, to a lesser extent, in South America in particular, you know, football has been, they all have been among the natural populace among the populace for a lot

longer. Well, certainly for African nations, hugely beneficial with the money that FIFA put aside in order for the smaller nations to get their facilities on track, which they need more because they've got the smaller football in playing population. That is one of the reasons why the gap has also narrowed. I mean,

Rory mentioned Benin there and apologize to EFN, which is hugely disrespectful to you, Dean, because South Africa, and I apologize for Rory, because obviously South Africa are in this group as well. And there's a twist here. There's a twist, which is...

There's always a twist. There's always a twist, isn't they? In that South Africa, were flying in qualification. They haven't qualified for a World Cup since Japan and Korea in 2002. Obviously, they hosted 2010, which was a privilege to be at that tournament.

It was great to be at that tournament. But they haven't qualified since 2002. They were flying in this group, and yet they've been handed a three-point deduction for fielding, ineligible player. Now they are appealing this, but they've gone from having a three point lead over Benin in second and a six point lead over Nigeria in third to now being level on points with Benin on 14 and just three points ahead of Nigeria. And the other thing about

having the three points deducted is actually they have the win taken off them and the win turns to a 3-0 defeat. So it actually affects their goal difference as well, which has put them behind Benin. So is there a sense in South Africa then of injustice here, Dean, or anger towards those who were responsible for fielding an ineligible player? I think there's definitely some anger, as it was a rather than a playing error, it was an admin error. I think what people need to understand is that yes, it was an admin error and there will

be someone accountable and I'm sure at some stage when the time is right, they probably will be held accountable. However, the yellow carded Tobaccoa McQuena who was my midfield partner when I was playing in South Africa as a fantastic player was over 15 games. They played 15 games from the first

booking to the second booking and when the actual suspension came in place. In fact, there was an African nations in between the two bookings. and that can show you how long these qualification processes go. And at times, there's yellow cards coming in here, there and everywhere, and it can be difficult to track. So someone somewhere has made a massive blunder. Having a look at the press and the interviews and the response from the national team

and Hugo Bruce, he's accepted it, which I think you have to do. It's there, whether they appeal, whether they win, an appeal or not at this stage of events, we can't rely on what an appeal may or may not do. What is really important is that we don't feel a sense of injustice, get on with the job at hand, which is to win our next two games. Without disrespecting Benin, we have to take care of what we have to do. Of course, Benin have to go to Nigeria, which is going to be a massive, massive game. And I think one of the key benefits for South Africa is that we've got Zimbabwe, which we're playing, which is an away game playing in Durban,

and that is a massive plus for us. And then Rwanda in Mombela, again, another home game, where there's definitely a feeling, and I'm not in South Africa anymore, so in Manchester, but looking on from afar, there's definitely a sense of optimism around the national team, and you hope that that leads to the crowds coming and giving South Africa the push to go and get those two results

that they so badly need. Because as you say, Dean, what plays into their hands? Zimbabwe are bottom of this group. They haven't won a game of the eight. They've drawn four and lost four of their eight. And Rwanda are the other opposition. What plays into South Africa's hands as long as they do their job is that Benin and Nigeria have to meet in that final game,

which should, in the balance of everything, negate the sort of deduction, shouldn't it? Really? We hope so. we just can't rely on other teams. We've done that before, and it's turned against us. We have to just make sure that we take care of our two games, and that's what's so, so key.

Zimbabwe, neighbours, I know they may not have won a game. I know there's some drama coming out from their camp with their assistant manager who had an altercation with one of the players at club levels, so he won't be joining the camp. There's a lot of noise. There's noise everywhere. There's, I know there's media questioning certain players,

as they do with every national team, not getting the call up or some players getting the call up. There's noise coming from Zimbabwe. There's noise coming from the points deduction. South African players have to focus. It's so, so important and get the job done. That's all we can do.

What happens with that massive clash is going to happen regardless of what happens with South Africa. They just have to take care of their business and make sure they're going to get six points from the next two games. What's changed, Dean, in terms of South Africa, what's led to the, if

If we parked the points of deduction for a little bit, what's led to the turnaround? I think they got rid of me. That was a turnaround. I don't mean this in a horrible way, because I'm very, very much older than you. But they have put their emphasis on the next generation, haven't they? Absolutely. And rightly so. I think what happened is my last campaign with the national team, we failed to qualify

for the African Cup nations. And there were reasons behind that. It was COVID, and a lot of the players playing in Europe at the time couldn't travel, so there were mitigating factors. And Hugo Bruce came in, and I think the first thing he did, and rightly so, obviously felt slightly aggrieved at the time. But he said, right, we're starting again. We're going with the new younger team.

We're going to build them up. It's not important what we do in the next Afghan campaign or the next World Cup campaign, but going down the line. we will build a team around this young, up-and-coming group of players. And it's bearing fruits. There's a fantastic group of players. It seems like every camp there's new players emerging. There's so much excitement around this current group of players.

Roran, I think you asked what the difference is. I always felt that we could be anyone on our day. When things clicked with us, we beat the likes of Spain, we beat Nigeria in Nigeria. We were a match for anyone. but our level of consistency wasn't there we could just as easily beat in Nigeria and then go and lose to a lessenation and put in a poor performance

and that was where we really led ourselves down I think what we're seeing with this team 18 games undefeated which is a fantastic run at any level of football let alone international football is a level of consistency that I suppose the fun of the fun hasn't seen for a long long time um did uh when you look at these these young players and the the

core of the South African squad. They are getting, I mean, they've got a lot of international experience at the Club World Cup, didn't they? We were talking about Mexico earlier when we had them on and how their young talent don't really move on from that league. They aren't necessarily exported because the league is wealthy if you compare it to say young Brazilians. What's interesting here with the South Africans is the core of the young players here

have all been at sundowns, haven't they, and at the Club World Cup. So, as I said earlier, you could use the facts to fit whatever argument you want to go with. Of course, I think having played in the PSL for five years, I've got to know it really, really well. They've got a fantastic product. They've got the TV channel Super Sport, which is the equivalent to Sky Sports, who are broadcasting every game, just very much as Sky Sports would do here. you've got the World Cup stadiums from 2010, so you are playing in these fantastic stadiums

with fantastic pitches, and the standard is very good. One of the other things is that you've got the likes of Mamlodi Sundowns who are a powerhouse on the continent in terms of domestic football, regularly reaching the latter stage of the Champions League, doing really well at the Club World Cup in the summer,

and what it's doing for the national team is that a lot of those players, sun downs are representing the national team. So they are taking that continuity in those bonds and those relationships that they're forming at club level, taking that into the national team. And that's been a massive bonus. And I think what's really important is those players not only for their national team, but largely for their club team are playing in high-stakes environments. They're going to your Egypt's, Morocco's. They're going to Nigeria. They're playing the big clubs domestically in high-pressure games. And that is serving them really well when

they come into these massive state games for the national team. Would it be fair to say, FAN, then, that with South Africa doing what South Africa are doing, there's probably a huge contrast with where Nigeria are at in this group. The positivity isn't necessarily as much to the fore. Absolutely. First of all, Nigeria, we don't have a strong domestic league. We've got the economy, you know, to have one. It's bigger than South Africa's. but we don't have historically a well-supported league,

strong, you know, partners, you know, commercial partners, a big TV deal, good facilities, all those things. South Africa have been able to get that sort of coordination and camaraderie. One because, you know, the players, I suppose, most of their players, you know, they played one or two of the big clubs. So these guys, you know, see each other on a regular basis. A coach is able to travel more freely or more easily and see players on a regular basis

when you're pulling your best players from Spain and from France or from England and from Germany or you want to go and view these players or to talk to them or to watch matches it's a much tougher task so all these kind of things need to be put in place in order to give the players

fewer excuses not to perform at the highest level if the pitches are good if the travel is good the organisation is good the infrastructure is there all the players have to do is come and play no excuses It's never easy, of course, you know, and the head coach has to coordinate things well enough.

So this is a job for the football federations. If you do that, then, of course, you have a better chance of repeating a successful cycle over and over again. I always say that Nigeria does well, Afcon in particular, in spite of the way things are, you know, back home, as opposed to because we've won it, you know, three times and been runners-up three or four times, you know, semi-finalist finishing third about four or five times as well. and the talent is there but you need to harness it if you don't then there's a chance that things will not always go your way

then you will have periods where the players are not as good as they were in the previous generation but the expectation is always there and as we discussed at the top of the show the other nations are closing the gap all the time so unless you match their efforts off the field there's no guarantee that

because you've always produced top players that you'll continue to so nothing is given at this level at all. In a way, it's great for the continent. Absolutely is, of course, as Nigerian, I would love us to be at every AFCOM and be right there, you know, in the final winning, of course, and to be at every World Cup. But I think it's highly unlikely that we get the points that we require from last, you know, two matches because, you know, teams put themselves in a better place. That would be two, that would be two World Cups on the spin. Yeah, you have to

accept that. You've not been good enough. And don't point in the fingers. at anybody else. Look inside your own house and examine the reasons why. Dean, lovely to have you on with us. Thank you. Nice to see you. See you soon. Brilliant. Great stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Well, we've talked a little bit about Cape Verde already or mentioned them several times, but they could be one of next year's World Cup many debutants. They drew 3-3 with Libya earlier today. So that means they need to win their final game or hope that Cameroon failed to win to qualify. They've got a land mass of only 4,033 kilometres squared.

So they could become the smallest nation to ever qualify for the World Cup. Rory has been speaking to the Shamrock Rovers defender, Roberto Lopez, who's played every game of Cape Verde's qualification campaign. My father's from Cape Verde. He's from the island of Sandy Clough down there. So I've always been aware of my heritage and obviously the country itself. like it's not something I really thought about pursuing for a long time

I've played football in Ireland my whole life my whole career has been here I played one cap probably three minutes it's actually a bit embarrassing to say but I played three minutes for the original 19s side and yeah I just I think when I signed for Shamrock Rovers

we were playing a European qualification football we had a few decent campaigns and somebody contact me on LinkedIn there's actually the manager at the time contact my LinkedIn and I didn't understand in Portuguese at this time. So I just thought it was a welcome spam message and just grown up in the air

of prank calls, prank text. I was just like, it's nothing. And I let it go for nine months. But thankfully, the manager wrote back to you back in English. As soon, would I be interested in declaring for Cape Verde? We're looking to get some new players in the squad. So, yeah, I apologize profusely. And thankfully, I didn't miss the opportunity.

And a month later, I made me debut. Do you know how we came to know that you had Cape Verdean ancestry? I think I done an interview while playing in the league. I think I played with a lad who called up to Or Tunisia. Funny enough.

And I was, I jokingly said, I'm going to explore me Cape Virgin heritage. So I think that sort of got word out there. Speaking with the guys in the Cape Verdean Federation since they always have eyes everywhere looking at players who are eligible.

So I think between the two, it's sort of the name popped up once or twice and thankfully they found me LinkedIn. And how do you put your ease now? It's getting better. Yeah, it is getting better. They speak Portuguese down there

but the official language is Portuguese but everyone speaks Creole down there that's the spoken language it's not written down so it kind of you pick up by your ear when you're down there I've learned a few words in that and obviously I've been trying to learn Portuguese by watching movies

taking a few lessons here there so it's definitely improved but there's still loads more to go how do you communicate as players is there a common language I think the answer depressantly is normally English isn't it? Yeah well funny enough my first time there

I was determined when we got on to the pitch whatever few words I had I was going to speak Creole. That was just my way of saying how can I immerse myself in this league. We have a lot of French base players, Dutch base players as well, and a lad from Portugal. So everyone tries their best to speak Portuguese and Creole.

A lot of lads have a lot better level than me. So it's no problem. But yeah, like if you're struggling at all, there's guys there that can speak English, there's guys there that can speak French. Dutch, there's plenty of boylingual Troylingle players there. And the results have been getting better consistently over the last, I guess, 10 and 15 years

for Cape Hurd. They've, I think the record at AFRON 2024, they beat Ghana, drew with Egypt. Is there a sense that you're building something? Has it felt like that to you throughout your time with the national team? Yeah, definitely. I think this was spoken about trying to get to a World Cup. Our last

World Cup campaign was gone really well. We ended up missing the top spot to Nigeria. And we had a few sort of points that got away from us in that campaign. So we're We're disappointed with that, but the next AFCON was my first AFCON and we were determined to maybe just showcase what we could do as a thing, because we felt

with a really good group of players. We did that have a good AFCON in Cameroon, although Coward was stricken at the time, like we performed really well. And I think off the back of that, I think a lot of players who were eligible and maybe think about playing the international football from maybe other countries,

the side of the Cape Verde looked like that, doing something stronger. So we're able to get some really strong players off the back of that. And yeah, I think we sort of earmarked how can we prove on the next AFCON and can we really push to get to a World Cup as I think the country has never qualified for a World Cup. It'd be the stuff of dreams and it's something that we really want to do just to put

the country and the people on the map. Presumably the fact that this is an expanded World Cup, does that change the way that a country like Cape Verde looks at qualifying? Just in terms of numbers, there are more spots for African teams. So it does increase your odds, I think, of qualifying. Did that give you a kind of an extra kick before it started? Yeah, I think so. Look, traditionally it's been really difficult to qualify for a World Cup for any team,

but especially in Africa, I think the last campaign, we knew we had to finish force to have a chance, and then you're going into a playoff, and it's the winner of them. I think it's 10 teams, and the best five go through then. This time, you know, if you finish force, you're going, you're on the plane, and that was a huge incentive for us, and we just thought we tackle every game head on, try and get to the top spot and try and hold on to it.

and they say we're in a great position now and it's about getting over the line now. And it's not like you had an easy group because you've got Cameroon in there who are one of the traditional powers of African football. What's kind of clicked this time around? What do you attribute the success so far to?

I think it's literally what I said. There's taking one game at a time, not trying to get too far ahead, thinking of the dream or the occasion of the World Cup just trying to play each match as it was. Like I say, we started off well, we win, but then we play Cameroon away and we got a bad result there

to be it's 4-1 so we weren't dwelling on that we knew we'd be coming back around to see them again and we just knew we had to be in a spot where we could potentially it's still in the hunt for qualifying and thankfully we were

I mean I think just the motivation of us being forced and being able to hold onto that was crucial the crowd we had in Cape Pride was amazing it was the first time I've seen the stadium pack down there

I think the government gave everyone at the half day at 12 to get themselves to the match and sure for everyone to end up, I know it was amazing. Cape Verde has a population just over half a million. It's not massive. It's obviously never been to a World Cup.

What do you think it would mean to the country to qualify? I don't want to break. You're taking it one game at a time routine. But what would it mean if you made it? I don't think I'd be able to describe it in so many words. I say, like, just you see every game down there how much football means to people and just seem to be known by the world, which means the world, just be in a massive sense of prize.

I know it'll be that from myself, so I'm sure it'll be that for the rest of Cape Braiding people as well. We spoke to Stefano Cousin, who's the manager of Comoros, earlier in this series, and he said that if they get to the World Cup, the president of the Comoros would give him a house. Do you know if there's any kind of unlikely prizes on offer for taking Cape Verde there? No, not in terms of, like, property around anything like that, but I'm sure we could ask for a few keys to the city and they'd be given out, like, all right. but yeah now look at the incentive for us with players is the dream of playing a World Cup

it's something everyone dreams about when they're a young player something to achieve like so yeah I say you don't need any more incentive that this is the biggest stage in football and I suppose the reminder of that would be that Christian Ronaldo

who would expect to be there does have like you Cape Verdean ancestry I think it's a little bit more indirect than he's a great grandmother I think is Cape Verdean I think so yes yeah that presumably would I guess to the country to play Portugal would mean would be particularly kind of

appetising. Yeah, it would be amazing to say, like, first of all, like Portugal one of the best teams in the world. But yeah, there is that sort of, I've got their independence from Portugal, so there is that sort of link there as well. Like, it'd be amazing to meet them at such a competition. But again, without looking too far ahead, you'd be absolutely buzzing to play any team at the World Cup on that stage.

I'd say the best countries in the world would be there. And how does your dad feel? My dad feels great. he's so proud being able to connect with the family and cousins and just to say like there's somebody representing our family, our island of Sandy Cleo in the national team. It's amazing to say like people are asking the street where is it from, Cape Verde and they know where that is now

because of the football and what we're doing as a team. So that's Roberto Lopez, who plays domestically for Shamrock Rovers but has played every game of Cape Verde's qualification campaign. And what they are doing, what they have done, Rory, whatever happens, is astonishing. It is one of the stories of World Cup qualification. Yeah, if you think about the size of the nation, the kind of the size of the population, the history, it's been extraordinary.

And they are, as EFAN said, they drew today, which means that, you know, the party has to wait in prior. But I think, I mean, I don't want to jinx anything. but they've got one home game left and if they win it they qualify that is not a bad position to be in for a nation like cape verde for a country like cape verde given that they've never been there it feels like yeah that this has been an extraordinary qualification campaign even if they managed to kind of not find a way from there from this position what they've done has been has wildly exceeded all expectations and built effen on what they did at the last afcon Absolutely. Yeah, fantastic tournament last time around.

I mean, Kate Verde have only really come to prominence in Africa, but qualifying for Afcons, I think, what, 2015, maybe was their first one, maybe the one before, 2013, the Nigeria one. So they really are new boys on the block. So for them to perform with that the way they have done at Afcon, the last few appearances, now to be on the verge of qualifying for the World Cup. I mean, I really hope, you know, that they do. They played some fantastic stuff last time out.

So, yeah, that would be a terrific story for an island, you know, so small. A group of islands are so small for them to get to the World Cup on that big stage would be. As I said, I'll go back to what I said before. This is a result of smaller nations, smaller islands, being able to have the facilities, the infrastructure in place to give those young kids the opportunity to perform. Because without it, you can't. You know, then you find a way.

you struggle to get to some of the bigger nations in Africa or you find a way to get to Europe that is a much more tortuous journey but when things are right there on your doorstep then the incentive is there you know for you to be doing it as early as you can so yeah if if they do qualify this is one of the stories of a football on the continent for sure the final thing effin is we still I mean with all this work qualifying talk there is an afcon to come before yeah absolutely you know so so countries are going to have their eyes on that before we even think about the USA, Canada and Mexico?

Yeah, of course, I think most people's eyes right now are, of course, on a World Cup. But, you know, for those who don't manage to qualify, then, of course, your attention will switch very, very quickly, you know, to Morocco for, you know, the weeks between the middle of December and, you know, last week in Jan, I think it is. So, you know, that's a huge tournament, of course, on a continent, but it can't detract from anybody's performance with the qualifiers over the next three to four days.

But yeah, you know, the World Cup is the big cheese, isn't it? You know, so everybody wants to be there. So if you are one of the big nations and you're not in the US, Mexico, and kind of next year around, you feel as if you fail. So I'm just hoping that there's a miracle somewhere for Nigeria over next four to five days. But, I mean, to be honest, I really don't see it, not even as a second place. you know, best side. So, you know, winning the group, I think is totally out of the question. Effin, thank you very much for being with us. See you soon.

Thanks, guys. See you, enjoy. Effin Lekon with us. Thank you, Rory.