Football Daily - Destination New Jersey: Pressure on Pochettino, Argentine coaches & DR Congo on top

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Mark Chapman and Rory Smith continue the countdown to the 2026 World Cup. Nico Cantor of CBS Sports joins to gauge the mood in America as pressure mounts on Mauricio Pochettino.South American football expert Tim Vickery gives the lowdown on Marcelo Bielsa’s Uruguay, as well as the other South American nations vying for a place at the World Cup.Also hear from Indonesian football expert Andy Fuller, and former DR Congo international Gabriel Zakuani.Timecodes: 00:25 Pressure on Pochettino & USMNT 12:40 Argentine coaches at the WC 16:05 “Unmissable” CONMEBOL qualification 20:25 Marcelo Bielsa’s Uruguay 26:30 Football in Indonesia 33:10 DR Congo top CAF GroupBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries: Thu 2000 Czech Republic v England in UEFA U21 Championship, Sun 1700 England v Slovenia in UEFA U21 Championship.

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Experience Formula One like never before by tuning into the Inside Track wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Hello, welcome to the Football Daily for the second instalment of Destination New Jersey as we continue our countdown to the 2026 World Cup. Coming up, Tim Vickery will run us through how the South American teams are getting on. We'll talk Indonesia and DR Congo, but we'll start with the host nation. Rory Smith is with us and Nico Kanta of CBS Sports. Nico, pressure really mounting on Mauricio

Pochettino after a 4-0 loss to Switzerland. Yeah, it was pretty poor. It was embarrassing as well. I'll let you guys know a little bit of how we started the show in the production meeting. We were going through the running order of our show and I started doing a little bit of arts and crafts and I cut out on a piece of paper, the letters P A N I C and I, and I put them on a button that we had a little buzzer that we had and we opened with a tight shot of the panic button and then zoomed out and started the conversation of our first segment of the show.

It was bad guys. It's worrying because especially it's very difficult to galvanize hope or any type of momentum. We're literally 365 days away from the World Cup on American soil and it's disheartening and it's not promising in the slightest. Pochettino is still trying to figure out the players that he has in his pool. And on top of that, the best guys don't want to play with the national team this summer. So we're really far off the mark here in the United States. It's been a little bit of a divisive summer given the fact that

Christian Pulisic is the first one that said he wanted a rest. There's a lot of people in Christian Pulisic's camp that say maybe he does need that rest, but then there's a lot of guys, especially former players that have been making noise in the media that have been pretty critical of him deciding not to go with the national team. So come gold cup that starts this weekend, RI is going to be focused on this team and frankly I'm not sure a lot of these guys are going to be the ones going to the world cup in a year's time. Nico, obviously Pulisic has attracted a little bit of attention but obviously I think Wey and McKennie aren't there because of the club world cup and they've chosen or been forced to play with Juventus,

I'm not sure which. How fair is it, having lost to Turkey in a kind of honorable fashion, I think, nothing wrong with losing two on to Turkey, and then being beaten pretty heavily by Switzerland. How much has the reaction been that this is a fair reflection of where the US actually are at this point under Pochettino's kind of leadership.

Yeah, I do think it's a reality check. In fact, I think after Turkey turned around the result Rory, I think you're being a little bit generous. I don't think it was that great. Sure, the United States improved, but ultimately the performance wasn't good. It's a light team, if you will. And the strangest part of it all, you guys have seen when the US goes up against England and I don't know how many World Cups, right? What's standard for the US men's national team, at least from our perspective, from the media side and from the

fan side, it's a team that you feel represented by the way that they defend the flag, the way that they go onto the pitch and defend the crest that they're wearing. And there's a weird dynamic with this group that you don't even have that as a default setting in these players. It's almost like they have to learn it. I was with a former player of the men's national team, Benny Failhaber. His last cap was in was in COVID Trinidad and Tobago right before the 2018 World Cup when the US failed to qualify. And there was this really strange turnover where there was not only a passing of the torch, it was almost like just a clean slate and the veterans weren't able to quite actually pass the torch, right? So this new generation had to learn by themselves. There was

no veterans to really show these values to them and for them to understand who they're fighting for, what they're fighting for, what culture they're inheriting. And as they're getting older, it's almost like there's a bit of displacency with this group, the lack of competitive within it. And now we're at a stage where we have much more questions than answers. I suppose quite a lot of stuff around the US Men's National Team then at the moment is about, you talk about fighting for the crest or for the flag or whatever I suppose it depends what some of these players feel you know that we're at a stage now where some of these players and Pulisic is a really good example you know has spent

now 13 years no a decade at least in European football. And he is what? He's not 30 yet, is he? He's 27, something like that? 28, 27, 27. So since he was a 16 year old, he has been in European football. And I'm sure there are other examples within that squad

that is the same. So trying to bring a sort of melting pot together here, isn't he, Nico? Which maybe wasn't the case with previous generations, where maybe they could actually capitalise on being the underdog in terms of world football. Right. I think there's a different dynamic here. I don't know if playing in Europe is particular to this group because in the generations past the leaders have all played in Europe, including Clint Dempsey for example. But Nico, from the age of 14, 15, 16? Yeah, it's true. I don't question how much Christian loves this national team. I do question

whether the group in general culturally feels the same for the national team like generations past, because generations past needed the national team in order to get that jump to Europe. They needed the national team, a good performance at a World Cup to be able to get a good contracting to be able to make football a lasting sustainable profession. Whereas these guys, like you do say chapters, they

they are already off to Europe, they didn't even play in major league soccer. Look at Western McKinney, he was in the FC Dallas Academy, he never made his MLS debut. Tyler Adams had a little bit of time in major leaguecer and then went to the Red Bull System and actually has a pretty nice career as a footballer. So they don't particularly need

a quarterfinal appearance in the Champions League to make it, but a lot of the players, and I have the privilege of working with a lot of them now, not only the generation of Clint Dempsey, but even the generation from before that, from the 90s, that they were the poster children of the sport in the United States. They had to do so much more than just perform for the national team. They were advocates for the game throughout the entire country, in the establishment of a new league. I'm really good friends with Tony Miola, with Marcelo Balboa, all of these guys would kill for the national team because it meant their livelihoods professionally really. I think this group kind of has that safety net where if they don't make a quarterfinal of the World Cup, they're still going to be millionaires. So it's kind of juggling that. And, and, and I think we're at a, at a really strange time culturally with this national team.

I want to be proven wrong. Don't like, don't misinterpret what I'm saying because all I want to success for this national team, but what they're giving me is more questions and answers and hopefully in a year's time I'm wrong and, and all of these signs show that show the opposite of everything that I'm saying, right? That they do make a deep run at the World Cup. My sense with the States, and this is very much a pet theory, Nico, so you can tell me

if I'm wrong, is that, like you say, for a long time the US men's national team had this guiding mission which was we are not only defending the badge and the flag but we're kind of fighting for soccer in the States like we we are the people on the front line of establishing this game. But with that means Rory with the underdog sport in our home country and when we are playing on the national the international stage we are in the main underdogs as well. And I think if you look at I've watched a lot of US games at World Cups, both while I was at the New York Times and before, and they were all marked by that kind of, every country in the world has got a word for this, but it's like that grit and grizzle that they

felt maybe like they were, to be honest I always felt that a lot of the players felt they weren't as good as they actually were. You look at Clint Dempsey, Clint Dempsey was an excellent Premier League footballer for seven or eight years, he was among the elite, no one ever went to a football match and thought Clint Dempsey's not very good, Clint Dempsey was a superb player. And they played for the US and I think they felt that, they felt that they were defending not just their country but the sport in their country and they were kind of proving to the world, look, we can do this too. And I wonder whether that, as Nico says, is part of what's been lost because these players

are all established. They've all been in Europe since they were teenagers. They know that they can kind of cut it at that level. But the other thing, I don't know to what extent, is the squad a little bit unbalanced between a core of those players who are in Europe and who are thinking well I could do with the summer off because I've had a long season of Serie A and the Champions League mentioning no names and then players who who were in MLS and maybe

Are at the start of their careers or maybe aren't quite as established as the others and you've got Mauricio Pochettino trying to play a style Of football we know what Mauricio Pochettino trying to play a style of football. We know what Mauricio Pochettino's football looks like, what he would demand of that team. But he's trying to do it with this kind of, this like, I don't know, does the phrase cut and shut exist in the States, Nico? Is that a thing that, like when you get two cars

and you kind of splice them together? No, I'm thinking about it. It's, I don't know, we have a particular saying for that. Maybe I'll come up for it later, but I kind of do like it, melding two cars together. And the fact that even if we were melding two cars together, the difference between the two cars, the players playing abroad and the players domestically, the gap wasn't that big. I think it's the biggest it's ever been, right? The average American player is further away from the average American player in Europe. So I do think the quality has dropped off. You've got a couple of your superstars, your stalwarts, right?

Your pillars of this team. And then the rest are pretty poor. But if you look at the team, just look at the lineup from the last couple of games against Turkey and against Switzerland. For the average football fan, there's names that you don't even recognize that honestly I don't think are good enough or will be at the World Cup. Is there anger or sympathy towards Pochettino or a bit of both?

I think there's criticism and I think there's a lot of questioning at the moment because it's been already 10 games and he's on a four-match losing streak and he hasn't found the team, he hasn't found the formation. He's obviously had to do with a deep pool or a big pool. I think deep implies that there's a lot of quality in it. It's a big pool that he's testing out. He's trying to find those B tier players that might be used in a good sense to kind of shake things up come World Cup. So the main guys and I'm talking about Christian Pulisic, Wea, McKinney, Adams is here, but Chris Richards, Sergino Dest, Anthony Robinson, a lot of these guys are missing, save Chris Richards, right? I think from the guys that are usuals on this team, the ones that are going to be going to the gold cup

are Matt Turner, who's been awful in my opinion, he's been pretty poor and yesterday he was at fault for one or two of the goals, not sharp, not playing. And then Johnny Cardoso who had a sensational season in La Liga with Betis and made the Conference League final as an important player but has in these last two games it's honestly been pitiful. If Mauricio Pochettino holds onto his job for If Mauricio Pochettino holds onto his job for another year, he could be one of seven managers from Argentina at this World Cup. Nico is staying with us for this little bit. South American football expert Tim Vickery joins us as well. That's a ringing endorsement, Tim, isn't it, of their footballing culture if there are

going to be seven Argentine managers at this World Cup And almost everyone in South America has an Argentine coach now of Attack Rory in the past for ruining the Brazilian national team By writing a puff piece on a coach who came in and was very very poor I have to hold my hands up and I'm taking a blame for Pochettino in the States because when they were looking for a coach, it's true story, ESPN asked me to recommend someone and I said, I think Pochettino is the perfect fit. And I'm told that at that point, no one in the American Soccer Federation had considered Pochettino. And after that, I don't think Pochettino wasted his time reading my articles, but maybe

one of his people does. They got in touch with the American Soccer Federation and the deal was done. So the buck stops here, ladies and gentlemen. That sounds like a much more direct impact than I had on Flanders and EZ. Oh yes. Guilty as charged, Rory. Guilty as charged. Whilst this may have had an influence on Pochettino and the US job, I'm assuming you aren't going

round various nations of the world recommending Argentine managers to them and that's how we might end up with... I mean, that's a good sideline, Tim, if you are, but how have we ended up with so many? Well, I'm still waiting for my commission on the Pochettino thing. I'm worried that results are going so badly that nothing will come through. Tim, I'll give you a list of managers for my Boca juniors. Maybe that will influence them to get a good manager for the club. We'll come coming up after maybe we're done with the one we have now.

It's such a vibrant football culture where football is, and it's a culture that loves to debate. It loves to get around a table with a coffee and debate football, debate tactics. And what you see, and there's such a big contrast with Brazil here, that leading players in Argentina, as soon as they retire, they want to be coaches. I mean, even people you'd never, I mean Carlos Tevez and Mark Chapman sir, you imagine that Carlos Tevez would be on permanent golf leave when he hung up his boots. Instead he's walked into two really difficult jobs, really put himself on the

line and done them not badly at all. And it's a huge contrast with Brazil where there may be a change on the horizon, but most of the major Brazilian players, once they give up, they want to party. Felipe Luiz, the former Atletico Amadur and Chelsea left back, is leading. He's currently coach of Flamengo and he's seen as the big hope. But in Argentina, there are lots, there are so many illustrious ex-players who become coaches. And if you look at the South American scene scene of the 10 countries, only Brazil now have

an Italian, Bolivia now have a Bolivian. Everyone else, Chile just sacked their Argentine coach yesterday and the coach of Peru played for Peru International Football but he's a naturalised Argentine. Everyone else, they're all Argentine. It really is very, very striking indeed. So there will be plenty of Argentine coaches in the World Cup with South American sides. Nico, thank you very much for coming on. Fascinating to talk to you. I'm sure we'll talk more in the build-up one year to go until the Men's World Cup gets underway. Nico Cantor from

CBS Sports with us. There's also, Tim, when you just look at qualifying from South America for a World Cup, probably more than most of the continents, I do think if you take Argentina and Brazil out of it, South American football does appear actually quite changeable and cyclical. I look at this table now and Ecuador are absolutely flying in second and Chile and Peru are the bottom two. I know Ecuador have been to previous World Cup and stuff, but you only have to go back a few years and Chile were a dark horse at a tournament. Countries do tend to move up and down.

It seems to me, anyhow, it seems a bit more volatile in South America. Yeah I think that's a good point and what tends to happen is that you have generations who will emerge and then they can't be replaced. Like Peru for example had that terrific generation in the 70s and then once they had gone they had to wait until Russia 2018 to qualify again. You know Colombia had the Valderrama generation in the 90s and then had to wait till Brazil 2014 to really make an impression. And you see that with a lot of countries and it is so balanced. My fear going into this qualification campaign that with of the 10 nations with six qualifying

plus seven, the seven going into a playoff, I thought the whole thing would be a waste of time. It hasn't. It's been really good. It's been really competitive for that very reason. You know, the fluctuation of forces. I mean, let's take last week's game, Chile at home to Argentina. Now, Chile are in desperate straights and were massacred in the first half, but it was only 1-0 to Argentina. Off comes Vidal because you can't play Vidal and Alexis Sanchez together, you can't press and so once Chile were more athletic in their press they were far better than Argentina in the second half and deserve to get something from the game. So it is partly because of the

importance of football to South American nationalism but also because of this fluctuation of forces, even with so many countries going through it remains An unmissable qualification campaign that may not apply to 2030 when three of them qualify automatically But we live in hope Tim. Can you make a test that Ecuador and now kind of South America's third force? I think you probably could yes of five goals conceded in in I think you probably could, yes. Five goals conceded in 16 games. The crop of defenders that they've got is exceptional. It really, really is good. Where they are missing is in strikers.

They are still very dependent on Enno Valencia, the former Premier League striker for goals. He hasn't been fit, didn't play in the 0-0 against Brazil and came on for the last few minutes against Peru. They're producing talents and the little club there, Independiente del Valle, it's a little club that exists to produce players. It produced Moses Quesildo for example. It's produced three excellent centre backs who all play together now. One of them plays at right back for Ecuador. So they are producing talent. They've got the experience of the last World Cup where they did pretty well and just couldn't quite do it. The pressure of the final group game was a bit too much for them. They've got that experience. It's still quite a young side. if only they had a striker or strikers to give them a little bit more

of a cutting edge, then I think they certainly would be South America's third force. They're in second at the moment, or Ecuador, as Tim says, they've only conceded five goals in qualifying in their 16 games. They have only scored 13. Their two defeats, both 1-0 defeats away to Brazil and Argentina, but they are sandwiched in between those two countries in second in that South American qualifying. Let's remember, Mark, that they started this campaign docked three points. So if you give them the three points, so they've actually won on the field, they would be well

ahead of Brazil. They would be exactly those three points I think ahead of Brazil if they hadn't been deducted them. And then in fourth come Uruguay. Tim, how are they progressing under Bielsa? Bielsa took over with a brief really to carry out a generational change. You know there were people there in the last World Cup who've been to four World Cups and they were going to go and you could see a spine of the team there for Bielsa. At Oujo Barcelona, Jiménez, still experienced but still young enough at centre-back, Valverde, Bentancourt in central midfield, Darwin Nunes up front. You could see a Bielsa team. Now they started off like a train.

They thrashed Brazil. They won away to Argentina very, very well. And then it all went, it all started to go wrong last year in the copper America. Again they started off like a train and then hit a wall. A number of reasons for that. One is, is Bielsa a tournament coach? Tournaments you have to pace yourself, especially in extreme heat. And maybe they ran out of gas.

Another one, Luis Suarez retired from international football, spitting bombs all over the place, saying that Bielsa wasn't getting onsa didn't have any relationship with the players. And the players backed him up. And there was clearly a problem there of relations. And you wonder if Bielsa's aloof eccentricity might not work as well with the current generation of players. Perhaps that worked better 20 years ago than it does with today's generation who are perhaps used to something a little bit more

tactile. Also on Bielsa, you know the model of play and it's predictable. You know what he's going to do, you know how he's going to set up his side and some of the high press has now been, that was revolutionary, has now been assimilated. He's had a few injury problems. No Valverde at the moment, Darwin Nunes is suspended. And so going into this game, yesterday's game against Venezuela, Uruguay were nine games with only one win. They were three games without a goal. With Bielsa in characteristic style, heaping criticism on himself, saying, I'm setting

up the side to attack and we're not creating anything. So this was a huge game last night against Venezuela and it could have gone wrong. And they battered and battered and battered without creating much. Lots and lots of corners. In the end, just before halftime, they scored from a corner, scored a wonderful goal afterwards and suddenly everything's all right again. But if they're going to do well in the World Cup next year, relations in the camp are going to have to improve I think and Bielsa will have to give serious thought to pacing a tournament

in conditions of extreme heat. Bielsa has said hasn't he that Suarez's comments have impacted his authority as manager. Just to give you a couple of quotes that Suarez said, he said, the players are going to reach a limit and explode at the Copa America. Players told me, Lewis, I'll play the Copa America and then I won't play again. Suarez talked about Bielsa's staff

not allowing them to play card games in between training sessions, which is very Fabio Capello and tomato sauce isn't it really. The head coach didn't want the players to greet the fans when they arrived in New York for a meeting with head of the game against Bolivia but then Suarez claimed that he was confused because then Bielsa told his players to go and win the game for his fans. Given Suarez's status, his words do carry weight then don't they? They most certainly do and other players you know when they're on their way to join up with a national team they had microphones thrust under their noses, can you confirm or deny? And they

backed up Suarez so they had to have a few clear the air meetings. And so we remain to see what's going to happen under tournament pressure. Rory, do you see Bielsa as a tournament coach? Do you think that? I remember the World Cup 2002 when Argentina went there as favourites. And physically they just couldn't do it and it was the end of a gruelling season. But you do wonder, and some suggested that he was asking too much of his players, do

you think that his methods are conducive to a tournament, especially this World Cup where if you want to win it there's an extra game because of the increase in size? It will also be incredibly hot as you say Tim, it's very much a summer World Cup. We don't know where everyone's going to be based yet but if you're a guy, end up trying to Miami or even like LA, Kansas or even Mexico, it's going to be boiling hot for them. Tim, thank you very much for joining us, lovely to see you. Welcome to the Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One like never before.

I'm Matt Magendie, and thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. This week, I sit down with one of the team's big bosses, Dr. Helmut Marko. I also didn't think that Max would win four championships. He didn't have the success what we expected from him. Experience Formula One like never before by tuning into the Inside Track wherever you get your podcasts. From my very first game, I knew that I wanted to be a goalkeeper. The buzz and the adrenaline that I got from it.

The dream was to always represent my country. Marriott, desperate to impress. I remember saying, I know I've got what it takes. And crucial save from us. You have to be obsessed. Marriott to the surface here. You just look at some of the saves that she makes. Not everyone can do that.

I really had no idea really how far I would go. England around dawn of the day! It felt like my world was ending. That was the moment I was in pieces on the kitchen floor. You have to hit rock bottom to understand what you really want. Mary would put herself in front of anything and feel like she could stop it. I've done something that I've always dreamed of doing.

I never knew if I would get the opportunity to do. Mary Earps, Queen of Stops. Watch on BBC iPlayer. This is the Football Daily podcast with Matt Chapman. It was back in the South, Japan, Iran, South Korea, Jordan and Australia, qualified for the World Cup. There are two more automatic spots available, one possible playoff spot as well. Indonesia are one of the six teams fighting for those spots.

So Rory has been talking to Andy Fuller, an expert on Indonesian football and the country's passion for the game. Indonesia is regarded, or seen globally, as being very marginal and at the periphery. But when you get to Indonesia, you realize how knowledgeable fans are, how up-to-date fans are, and how engaged with football politics. So I grew up in a sports- mad city of Melbourne. It has the

largest number of professional sporting teams per capita. But then when I got to Indonesia I was like, wow this is something something next level. So even I was trying to tell the supporters I met there, don't worry about Germany, don't worry about England. This is incredible what you've got here. And of course, that speaks to a lot of the problems that are in Indonesian football, which is the problematic infrastructure, problematic management. And so, although it's easy to admire a lot of the things

that Indonesian football fans do, it's sort of coming out of a place of their own responsibility that they feel towards promoting the game and developing their club and their supporter cultures. Do you feel that that's what has maybe held Indonesia back then? Does it does have this vast population? You know, it's a very young country. It does have this groundswell of this bedrock, I suppose, of passion for football.

groundswell of this bedrock, I suppose, of passion for football, as you say, I think is maybe not always understood or appreciated in Europe, in the US perhaps. I remember reading James Montague's book, 1312, about ultra culture around the world and the scenes that he painted of Indonesian ultra culture were, I mean, astonishing and terrifying at the same time. So there is this real passion. And yet, as you say, it's thought of as a backwater in terms of football. I think it's probably fair to say that its development has been stunted. Do you put that down to a failure of infrastructure, a failure of investment, a failure of management? Yeah, all of the above. And Indonesia is an incredibly complex nation. Yeah. In terms of geographic

expanse, in terms of climate, in terms of the cultural diversity. So all of these factors make Indonesia a difficult nation to manage as a coherent whole. And of course, Indonesia's diversity is incredibly its richness. But when you go to Indonesia and you travel from north to south or from east to west, you feel like you're traveling through three or four totally different countries. And I was thinking about this question and I thought it's not only Indonesia as a great

nation in terms of size that is under performed in terms of its football and performance. Like a lot of these very large nations also find it difficult to perform. It's not the size of a nation doesn't equal instant footballing success. And yes, we can say Indonesia has underperformed poorly on the global stage but also it's underperformed at the regional and the Asian footballing level and also in terms of Southeast Asia. So how Indonesia goes about actually consolidating this or transforming this huge interest in the game into on-field success is a is a ongoing dilemma and bringing in Eric Tohir to manage the PSSI. Basically Indonesia's FIFA is perhaps he is he is regarded as being a guy who can manage

these great projects but I'm not sure if that's going to happen. What do you think qualifying for the World Cup would mean to the people of Indonesia? Yeah, it'll be a party like you wouldn't believe. And for whatever misgivings people have about the team being made up of foreign born players and coached by somebody with a problematic record or the link with Eric to here, then yeah, I think just qualifying even in this expanded World Cup will be like a tremendous moment. And of course, we all have we would all have some misgivings, but who is going to, you know, take that footballing pleasure away from a nation that invests so much in

it at an emotional level? So let's hope that it happens. A lot of emotion there Rory in what he was describing. Yeah I think for countries like Indonesia there is this latent passion for football. We don't necessarily associate it in Europe as being a, like a hotbed. And I suppose more than anything we maybe look at it as a market to export the Premier League to, but James Montagu is a journalist who wrote a brilliant book called 1312, which is about ultra-culture, went to Indonesia. And some of the scenes

that he portrayed are genuinely astonishing. I mean, there's one where I think a bus he's on is attacked by people wielding machetes, which I'm not condoning, but it kind of shows how seriously Indonesians take their football. And I think for countries like that, the World Cup, and we touched on this a couple of times, has always been, yeah, like Tim said, it's a marker of saying to the world, we exist within this thing that everybody loves that their outlook at the moment in terms of qualifying is it's a thin pathway I mean it's probably probably involve a involve a playoff but they have got an incredibly young population I think it's

the average age of Indonesia's in the late 20s it's much much younger than Europe there is money going into the infrastructure. There is an attempt to professionalise it. Andy was very sort of sceptical of Eric Toher's competence to do that. But it does suggest that they are trying to take it seriously. They are trying to grow their own football culture. And it is maybe not China or India in terms of size, but it is, you know, it's a common power in Indonesia.

It's kind of a brick country it's that that kind of level of of growing economic force and I think that we will see the football world shift a little bit more towards those nations in the coming years. Let's talk African X so there are nine groups the winner from each straight through to the World Cup that will be decided by October group B the tightest of all nine. DR Congo are at the top. They're one point clear of Senegal and Sudan. DR Congo have only qualified once for the World Cup before and that was under their former name Zaire in 1974. Joining us now former DR Congo International, Gabriel Zakkawane. Evening Gabriel, thank you very much for joining us.

Evening guys. This group is tight, isn't it? And DR Congo still have Senegal to play, that's in September. Yeah, it's a tight group, as you mentioned. I mean, just being in this position, first of all, it's a privilege to be involved with the squad because the belief in there is that we will do it.

But obviously Senegal are always a top team and seeing what they did against England just makes us a little bit more scared now of that game. But I mean, you know, we knew how good they were, but really looking forward to it. And I think it's more of a challenge than, you know, than thinking we'll fail, you know, we're the ones they need to catch. So I think they need to put the emphasis on us because at the moment we're the team to beat.

Is, do you think that the players and the squad and the country feel the pressure now being, you talk about that pressure of being top and it being within their grasp. Yeah I mean look you'd rather the pressure being while you're top of the group you know, you know when you're at the bottom of the group and then the pressure is a totally different thing but being at the top of the group I think you have to relish that pressure and I think we have the players who are used to playing in pressure situations week in week out

so I think we're looking at something to relish and to look forward to and sort of a celebration to if we do Make it but I think the belief is there we have the players now that we think We're probably the missing part of the jigsaw for probably as you mentioned We don't like to hear it. Last time was in 74. And I think we finally found the players to get that extra step. When you talk about players being the missing part of the jigsaw, is that through those players,

because we're gonna come on to your role and how you are looking at players that are maybe UK based as possibly being eligible to play for DR Congo. So when you talk about the missing piece in the jigsaw, are they the kind of players that you're talking about? Yeah, I think, look, I think we look across Europe, there's a lot of African players playing for European countries. And what my part of my role is to sort of convince them to to play for, you know, where their parents are born or the nation where they're from, you

know, and you look at players like what you look at the Premier League, you look at Weeser, yeah, Yoan Weeser, he's one of the top scorers of the Premier League. And it would be a shame to lose a player like him, you know, when you you've a player like him from the DL Congo not playing for Congo. So when you get those sorts of players coming back to represent the country, it makes a hell of a difference. You know, I made a career playing for DL Congo, but playing more in the lower leagues, you know, for Peterborough, for Leighton Orient. And then when I moved to Fulham, it was, you know, I was a bit more established. But I mean, you know, and there was a player like Company, Vincent Company was eligible for Congo. So if he, if he was playing for Congo, I probably would never have had a career.

But player like you and we saw, I think them sort of players are the missing parts that we've, you know, lacked in the last few years. And are they easy conversations to have? Are they good conversations to have? I'm always reminded to go back when we talk about this sort of subject of how keen, with my rugby league hat on when doing a rugby league world cup, that a lot of the islanders around Australia and New Zealand who had been eligible for playing for Australia and New Zealand and were playing rugby league in the NRL were so emotional at having the opportunity to play for the country of their heritage, to

play for the country of or the island of their parents or maybe even their grandparents. And in some ways, that added an extra level onto their feelings and emotions rather than if it had just been themselves who had been born in that on that island or in that country. Yeah, it does add to it. You know, it's the hardest part for me is to convince them to take the step. You know, it's very lucrative now, you know, football. So players like, you know, Joao Wissar, and I've just convinced Aaron Wan-Bissaka from West Ham

to join as well, and he signed his papers over to now play for the DR Congo national team, which is going to be a massive boost. But it's that taking that first step. Once they do take that step and they go back to Congo and they they see how they're loved back home and their parents and the pride that their family will have I know they'll know they made the right decision but it's taking that step and I know it's a lot more lucrative you know probably to play for England and to play for the top European countries you you get the big sponsorship deals and things like that,

but you can't match that passion of representing your country of heritage. Gabriel, I imagine that with Wamba Saka and Weesa, who are high profile footballers, there's kind of an awareness that they have Condoleez ancestry. How do you find others? Is it kind of word of mouth?

Is there a system in place to say that those players may have Condoleez ancestry. We kind of need to investigate it. Is there a how do you approach them? I mean I'm growing into the role usually is that I see a name and yeah I think that sounds Congolese, you know, and they start looking into it and checking the the ancestry but but now I think it's a lot more Technical, you know you you you speak to these high profile players and they may know someone, okay, I've got a friend that plays in France, he plays for Marseille and he's up and coming

and you start looking, you start getting people looking around. So it's a tough job to look around and to make sure that you get the cream of the crop, as I must say. But to be fair, there's a lot of Congolese players now who are playing at top clubs We are players playing in the top French league. We are playing in Germany

So we do have players playing at a high level But it always helps when you have your your own visas and your arrow and be sacs who were there So then when it's easier to convince other players knowing that these top players are there so it works hand in hand And do those do those plays regard themselves as I mean it I don't want you to give away any anybody secrets obviously just you know It's for Aaron to tell his story his own identity But do they regard themselves as as British Congolese is it is it kind of is it to nationalities that they think they think of themselves As having is is there do you have to kind of persuade them to change the balance in the way they identify?

Do they find it easy to feel both British and Cronulis at the same time? Yeah, that's a good question because I'm Aaron is is very British is the British that they come to be fair, you know But when I did go to his house to walk to his parents house to sort of tell them my interest So the the manager traveled traveled from France with me and we went to his parents' house and we had the conversation and he looked at me. And what I do is try and find something that connects me to Aaron.

So for example, Yannick Bellassi was at Crystal Palace. That's where Aaron started. So that made it easier to start the conversation. You know, I'm good friends with Yannick Bellassi and you know, it worked out for Yannick. He had a great Premier League career. So it's something that he can be a big player in a small pond in terms of international level.

Whereas England, I mean, there's a lot of quality players, well-known players, he can get lost in the system. So we're telling him, who will be a big part of what we're trying to do? I think that sort of enhances sort of what we wanna do. But also his parents are very, very Congolese. They still have the traditional Congolese clothes they wear and they still speak to him in a language

that he struggles to pick up. They still speak to him in the same language. I mean, he still has that heritage, but he's as London as they come. Is that a deliberate choice to meet him at his parents' house? If I was being cynical, Gabriel, I'd be like, actually, you've done that to just kind of shift the stales in your favour a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I know he's aged, but you know when you have conversations with agents, it's not as easy as talking to the parent. If I'm pulling at his dad's heartstrings, I mean, it's a lot easier to convince him to get involved. And I know his dad would know my history as his dad would be supporting us at the previous AFKON. So there's more of a story there to tell

with someone that sort of lives that passion and wants his son to be involved in that. So it is easier and it is quite strategic to speak to his parents because I think that helps Michael a bit more and helps get my point across to him. And presumably, and again, it's not being cynical, but it's common sense here. Your job in talking to players and saying, you know, have you thought about this becomes easier if the country is at a World Cup or has been at a World Cup and players can then see the trajectory that you're on.

Yeah, I mean, Mark, that's probably makes my jobs a lot easier now, you know, that we're doing very well, you know, qualified for the African Cup of Nations, that's sorted, that's out of the way. And now the only aim is to qualify for the World Cup, which we are top of the group. So it's an easier conversation, as you say. But in the past, it's been, you can be that player that gets us there. That's been sort of the sort of carrot

I've had to throw there, that you can put your name in history and be that first player to help us get to a major tournament. But now it is a lot easier, because he'll be looking at it thinking, okay, if I go to the world cup that's good for him, it's good for his CV, it's good for everything they do.

So, I mean, now it works hand in hand. I think us doing well makes it a lot easier to attract the top cream of the crop to join the Congolese national team. So, I mean, right now it is a lot easier as as you say, but it's always, you know, you try and tell them that they, you know, it's something big, it's a big project and something that they can join and something that will be successful. You're, I mean, you're also a system manager of the under twenties team. Is there a successful age group pathway with you guys?

Well, there wasn't. I mean, it's something that we had to implement when the new management came in. I did make it very clear that it is, we need a pathway, you know, we need to get these players early on board with the Congolese national team. So that's why I was involved with the, with the under twenties, the under twenty threes to sort of build that pathway and we're seeing it sort of starting to bear fruit. You know, we're getting players earlier on and they're developing and joining and molding themselves into the first team. So it is important to get them from early on instead of late in their career when the France hasn't worked out or England hasn't worked out, then Congo is the next choice. You'd rather get them early on. But again,

it goes back to what you said is when we we're successful It's a lot easier to prize these players away from the big nations. How will the nerves be in September? I mean, you know since I since I retired my nerves are ten times worse Oh, yeah, yeah a lot easier when you played was it and you were in control I mean, it's a lot easier when you're playing because you know, you can do something about it But when you're on the side and you're thinking, look, you just hope they stick to the plan. But they seem so relaxed, you know, the players seem like they believe in themselves. And it's probably the first group I've seen that actually believe they can make that extra step. And, you know, we're right behind them, the whole nation's behind them.

And we just hope that we can get over the line. But like I said, it's still biting my nails after watching Senegal yesterday so we'll have to get past them first. Thank you very much for being with us Gabriel really appreciate it good to talk to you good luck. Thank you guys thank you. Thank you Gabriel Zakuari with us talking about DR Congo. Rory thank you as well that's a very you show DR Congo Indonesia. We've covered some ground there haven't we? We have yeah. Thank you. That's it for this episode of the Football Daily. The next one is EuroLeaks with an all-time Champions League XI.

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