Football Daily - England set for Senegal Friendly

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Hear from Thomas Tuchel and Bukayo Saka ahead of England’s friendly against Senegal. Correspondent John Murray is joined by Senior Football Reporter Ian Dennis and The Telegraph’s Mike McGrath to discuss all ahead of England’s second match of the international break. Have we seen Tuchel implement his style yet? When will it take full effect? How important are these matches in the run up to next summer’s World Cup?05.02 – Thomas Tuchel 18.58 – Bukayo SakaBBC Sounds/5 Live commentaries this weekMonday – 19:45 on 5 Live – Belgium v Wales – World Cup Qualifying Tuesday – 19:45 on 5 Live – England v Senegal – International Friendly

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello from John Murray and welcome to this bonus Football Daily to look ahead to England's friendly international against Senegal in Nottingham on Tuesday evening, which is the final match of the season for the England senior men's team. I am at their training base here at St George's Park in the heart of the rolling green Staffordshire summer countryside. I've just been talking with head coach Thomas Tuchel, you will hear from him shortly. We've also been talking to Bukai

Osaka who we'll hear from a little later. He will start against Senegal, Thomas Tuko told us. But I'm in the Ugo Ehiyog room in the company of my BBC colleague Ian Dennett, our senior football reporter. Hello Ian. Hello John. And also Mike McGrath, Daily Telegraph football reporter. Mike. Hi John, thanks for having me on. Yes, always a pleasure. You, like me and Ian, were in Barcelona on Saturday night for what was not a thing of beauty, was it? It was a really, really long, very, very long evening. So, you know, well done for entertaining the listeners because it was tough going. We were sat quite near the England travelling fans. There weren't many in that big stadium and their focus was elsewhere. Would you say somewhere there was chanting? There was ironic chanting when England got a shot on target.

By the end, some of them were heading into Barcelona city centre because it wasn't great entertainment. Barcelona City Centre because it wasn't great entertainment and you know for an international break you'd like it for England anyway to kind of finish it on a positive note at the city ground. What sort of reflections have you had Ian in the time that we travelled back from Barcelona? I actually quite like the approach from Thomas Tuchel to be honest with you and I know during Sunday's five live sport, I was a little bit critical by saying

we are yet to see his brand of football, something that I've spoken to him about today, just saying, you know, for context, he is halfway through the year as the England manager. However, he was saying that today is only his 11th training session. So you're talking of a week and a half as a club manager in that respect

So I was saying when are we going to see your brand of football because we haven't seen it yet in the three games Albania Latvia and certainly didn't see it against Andorra, but I like his honesty and as we mentioned in the aftermath of the game against Andorra because When you were speaking to him, and for instance, his comment about Declan Rice being a little bit out of rhythm, Michael Brown, who was sat to my left at the time, pulled like an astonished look on his face. And I said at the time, well, it's fine as long as he's saying that to the players in the dressing room. I think a manager has an issue if he says one thing in a dressing room and then comes out and

says something else to the media. And I't think Thomas Suckels like that. No, he's been at pains to say that he's done exactly that hasn't he? And he said that's what he said. I've said nothing to you that I haven't said to the player exactly that's what that was the gist of his his briefing to journalists after the game was that That they are not as that they can't be thin-skinned in this game and he will tell it how it is and it wasn't good enough. I thought it was really eye-opening.

As Deno said, when you mention attitude, the body language, I think they're like kind of basics that need to be there for any team to do well and especially the England team so it was it was I thought it was quite worrying really kind of him certainly this is what he's going to do he's going to call out the players if he sees things that he's not happy with which I think is a good thing for this team because it's you know the clock is ticking it's only a year to go until we're going to be out there in America. You know, we've seen his team play three times now. And when he first stepped into the job, when he spoke to us on that first day,

when he was unveiled publicly, he spoke and I put this to him on Saturday night as well, of how he said he wanted to play Premier League style football and he wanted to play entertaining football. I don't really feel that we've seen that at all yet in the three matches. I think the most entertaining matches that England have played this season were the two games under Lee Carsley in November when they played against, you know, won so well and played so well in Greece and then beat the Republic of Ireland. But you're right Mike, it is one year this week until the World Cup kicks off in Mexico.

So that was very much part of what I was speaking to Thomas Tuchel about as you'll hear now. But I first of all said that this match against Senegal is probably the best team that his England side will have played against so far. They are highest ranked. And what we see throughout is a high level of individual quality. They play for top clubs in Europe and all over the world. So we see a lot of quality. We see a very physical team, a team that plays very attacking minded.

And that's what we're going to face. It's good that we face these kind of team. We're excited to go to Nottingham and compete with them. And to say it there, that it is your fourth match, yet you've been in the job now for six months. Do you feel like you've got your feet under the table, as we would say now, in the role? Yeah, I have my feet under the table, I would say that. But of course we have only 11, I think today is the 11th training session together, which is not a lot so

Compared with my impatient nature sometime you think like after half a year you you see more patterns and you see more Synchronity in our match and more more more fluidity, which is maybe imagine more fluidity which is maybe too high demand because we come from different clubs, from different styles of play. Sometimes then we try another structure to give them an advantage but it seems like that it kind of also slows us down because they have to think about it and they have to, in the moment, they don't have the freedom to bring out the very best in us. We played now three times also against a very deep block in a 5-4-1, which is maybe the most difficult to break down.

This is what we are facing. The teams are well drilled, even if they they are low ranked they are well drilled with all the Analyzing tools and the quality of management that they have so yeah, we have to accept it It's always a balance and then we will always push for the for the next step You knew what you were getting into International management and you've obviously observed it from the outside of international management, but you said there, you know, you are impatient and that must be quite a tricky balance. Yeah, it's a tricky balance for me, but I wanted the challenge and I love the challenge

and I still love the group. There is no doubt about being in the right place and there's no doubt about being with the right group of players. I really like the commitment, I like the energy and the attitude. It's nice to coach these guys and they like to be together. Yesterday we had an amazing training session again where they show the quality and the determination in a matchday plus one when a match did not go so well. So these are very, very good signs. So I think like with time, stuff will come. I will learn what it takes to influence a group on an international level and the group

will learn what we want to see. In the moment it is a big learning. It's our second camp. Like I said, we have 11,12 training sessions together at some point. I think when players get into their rhythm again in September, October, November, we will have a click and see the steps forward. But as you know, it is one year this week until the World Cup begins. And after this, is it maybe 10 matches that you would have before that point. What

are you seeing now as the problem areas? What are the issues that are giving you most food for thought in the team? Players-wise and quality-wise and character-wise I have no issues and I have no doubts. It's just at the moment I'm just thinking and learning how to influence the group in the best way. And I am observing and trying to find the connections on the pitch, like who is interacting with whom, who is supporting whom, for which players it's natural to play together, in which areas of the field they want to implement and they want to impose themselves.

These are the learnings for me basically, but there are no worries that we will be competitive with this group of players. We need to get the selection right, we need to get the structure right, we need to get the connections and the details right for this particular group and for that we need time together. This is what we are doing at the moment and from there we go. That the clock is ticking and you had an idea didn't you last Saturday of we've witnessed it many many times over the years the angst there can be around the England team. I'm not sure if I felt angst or fear.

I felt a little, I felt us in the last 10 minutes not aware. I think we didn't play with a serious and with the attitude that it's only 1-0, that we are only 1-0 up. I felt we play like it's 4-0, 5-0. I felt us a bit careless, which I did not like and the players know it. It was just a feeling on the sideline, being close to the players, which I didn't like. Otherwise, I felt like we tried, we tried to get the formation right, we tried to get the positions right, but we got a little bit stuck after half an hour.

We lost our momentum, we lost position in passing, we lost our rhythm and never got it really back. I don't think we played with fear. I think everyone in camp was sure that we were going to win, me included. I think this is also fair enough that we have this kind of self-confidence that we were sure that we were going to win this game and we have what it takes. We did, but we had an under-performance in XG, a significant under-performance which we could see through the week that the players struggled with precise finishing, players struggled with precise

passing, which from my point of view comes down to a lack of rhythm after having some holidays and having not the boots on and being not on the pitch. It looked a little bit like a first match in pre-season. It is done, it is analysed and we already took a step forward in yesterday's training and we'll prepare them now for Senegal. Just finally, when it is a year out, do you feel that you've got a handle on why it is that England have only won one senior major trophy? It's not all bad luck is it? Not sure. I think we all underestimate the luck in football and how tight these games were. I think the English team and the federation are so, so close and they build a strong, base to arrive in quarter-finals consecutively, in semi-finals and in finals.

We still have time. I know that everyone is impatient, me, myself, we are impatient, but we know it will be a very demanding World Cup. There is one match more. It will be played through different time zones. It will be a lot of travelling, it will come in summer, it will come after long and demanding seasons, but these are all givens. We will need to get the attitude right towards all these obstacles and get

also the attitude right towards the tournament. I don't think we will arrive as favourites and this has nothing to do with our performance and result against Antora. It's just like there are other teams who want it more than us, other countries. So to arrive as challengers is, I think, a nice way to arrive and if we have the expectations right and the energy right, we can go all the way. I'm convinced but first of all we play as Senegal friendly and then we do what is needed to do in September, October, November and I think from there we will build a competitive culture that then will bring us all the way. So there we are the England head coach Thomas

Tuchel talking to me here at St St George's Park and with Mike McGraw and Ian Dennis. You know I felt that this was a good time Ian to touch on some of those subjects with one year to go until the World Cup kicks off. And the line towards the end, we won't arrive as favourites but will be challenges, I thought was one of the standout quotes from him during that. And also, bearing in mind that we were saying that, I mean, when I spoke to him in the other, the main press conference, and I talked about his brand of football, and he said, I'm impatient. He mentioned the word impatient a number of times there with you, but also talked about in September, October and November, hopefully he sees a bit of a click.

That's when it all knits together Because we are at the end of a long season and there are players then going out nine of them of this squad are going Out to the Club World Cup, you know, which starts at the weekend So that that I think is possibly although he says it's not But I think that is also affecting his team selection, too So once that's all out of the way then I think come the autumn there can be no excuses. And you and I have done this enough haven't we? We've seen enough matches at the end of seasons whether it's Nations League, whether it's friendly matches and very often they are not the

best quality. No, no and to be honest with you I don't think that the fixture list between even now and the end of the year is anything to get you, or it'll get the juices flowing. You know, they've got a tricky game away to Serbia in September, but we thought that probably the toughest group for England. They've got Friendly lined up against Wales again. I think the Nations League, as we've seen last weekend, the quality of the Nations League is a brilliant concept, because all of a sudden it's doing away with friendlies And you get more of a competitive nature of the games you're playing against teams that challenge it Yeah, but even Serbia dropped points at the weekend, you know, they're first qualifier. They drop points in Albania They drew nil nil away to Albania on Saturday night

So all of a sudden that even from an England point of view thinking all that might be a tricky game in come September Yes, it might but England will be well on their way to qualifying then but I just think it's it's about what he does and at the minute we haven't seen that but I think there are possibly extenuating circumstances and that's why I say that I don't think he'll he'll have that excuse come come the autumn. I said to him, Mike, in that interview, because he often mentions his impatience. And I think as an international manager, impatience is a tricky one, isn't it?

Because he's been in the job six months, as I said to him, and this is his fourth match that he'll play. And he keeps referencing, doesn't he, how few in terms of training sessions, how few matches they've got. I think it'll be 10 matches before the World Cup kicks off after this and you know also getting a taste I felt as I said to him about the angst that there can be around England on Saturday. Well I think as international managers do he will be counting every session on the training pitch here at

St George's Park and every minute that players will be having on the pitch before they get to America, Mexico and Canada. So I think it is a job where it's not like club management where you see them every day. It's very, very different to that. And I think he's perhaps even maybe seeing some of those things that he talked about when he first came in and he was quite critical of what he saw from England players at the Euro,

saying that there was a bit of fear in the way that they played. And he wanted to release that. Well, I think maybe he's finding that it's not quite so easy just to do to do that and just say that, you know, you can you can play with freedom or, you know, you can be as attacking as you want. I think that there is a good case to say that this team will be very different when they do play against those

nation league teams, like we've seen this week in midweek, like France and Spain, who actually play football. And Dora were there for one reason only and we saw what it was. They tried to block everything. I would like to think that with the players England have at their disposal with say Spain coming at them and imposing their game that it would be a much fairer game than we'd think, rather than looking at in isolation, the dismal performance we saw at Espanyol's stadium versus Spain or France or Portugal in the Nations League.

And you would like to think Sanagol with some of the talents that they've got, Nicholas Jackson and Jai, there are threats in that team, you would like to think that they will try and carry the game to England a little more. Although I have to say I was amused because I think every England manager I can remember since you know I first properly seriously started taking interest in England, probably Ron Greenwood, I think every England manager has said something like there are no easy games in international football And I felt that Thomas took a moral I said that both before and after and Dora

So we've already got to that point So that is Thomas too cool, but we've also had the chance Ian today to speak to bukayo soccer Yes, and we first of all talk with bukayo because when he arrived in camp He was suffering a little bit of discomfort from the final game of the season, Southampton against Arsenal. So when he arrived he wasn't fully fit but he's told me he is fit and he will start and this is his reflections of the season. Yeah I'm fit, I had a little strain off at the last game of the season but I'm feeling good now. That must have been a little bit frustrating because you would have wanted to have made

some sort of impact but you've been able to train since the Andorra game? Yes, I was able to train maybe one or two sessions before the Andorra game but it was not full with the team so he just made the decision that I would be out of the squad and be involved tomorrow. I've just been speaking with the England manager because you're yet to play under him. He says he's very excited about you putting on the England shirt under him. How do you feel about playing under Thomas Tuchel? Very excited to do the same. I'm looking forward to it.

What's he like? I think he's a top manager since obviously it's my first camp with him. I can see the demands he's setting and training. Everything's done at a high level and to good detail also. I think he's going to be a good manager for us. There are two words that I've heard many players describe Thomas Tuchel. You've just mentioned one of them, demanding. The other one is intense. Do you think he can get the best out of the England group?

Yeah, I believe so. I think the experience he has, the trophies he's won in the past in his managerial career, the confidence he has as well. I believe in the way he sees football as well. I think he can get the best out of us. He says he's seen the trademark smile in training, but at times I think this season it must have been very hard for you to smile because you've had a tough time with injuries. Yes, I had a few injuries this year, including one of the biggest ones of my career, which was tough, but I put the work in and I've come back stronger for it. I just want to

look forward now and give my best for club and country. Do you feel that you're over that now, that run you had towards the end of the season, your back being stronger? Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. How tough was it though, from a personal point of view? Yeah, it was very tough to hear the news, obviously that you need to have an operation. I've never had the one before.

So yeah, it was quite scary initially, but after it was done and it was successful, I dealt with it quite well and I was quite positive about putting all the work in that I needed to do. I spent some time at home with my family, more time than I was when I was playing. So yeah, that was nice also to mentally refresh and be with them. So yeah, I think overall it will help me come back as a better player, a better person and able to give more. How much do you think you've grown though? Arsenal now are a better player, a better person and able to give more. How much do you think you've grown though? Arsenal now are a competitive force, going

deep into the Champions League. In terms of from a collective but also a personal side, how much do you think you've grown during that period? I think I've grown a lot and I think the team has grown a lot too. I don't want to speak too much about Arsenal because I'm wearing the England badge right now. But yeah, when we return next season, I'm sure we'll be in a better place and ready to compete again. And the thing is as well, is that you're only 23,

but you are part of this leadership group, aren't you, within England? So there is, for somebody so young, you have a valuable role to play within the England set-up? You could say so. I don't really put any titles or any of that on my head to put any extra pressure on. Would you not say so? I just try and do what I feel my responsibility is, that my teammates give me, that the manager gives me, and just be the best teammate I can be and whatever you want to describe it as you can.

But yeah, I'll just be myself. But it's a compliment, isn't it, for somebody so young to be given that role? No, 100 per cent. It definitely is a compliment. So thank you. Well, hopefully you just keep on smiling and keep scoring the goals. Yeah, that's the plan. The one thing I took from that is that he's still quite shy, still very reserved, and yet within the group, even at 23 years of age, he is seen very much as part of the leadership group, which almost is in contrast to the way he is in his,

our dealings with him, our interactions from a media point of view. But he is the classic example, isn't he, of someone who really does his talking on the field? He does and I think he also is very perceptive to the needs of the dressing room and while that might not be somebody to do a Churchillian speech in front of the whole squad I think he was made part of Garasalchow's leadership group because of those connections that he has one-on-one with his teammates. And I think there's been a fair amount of maturity that we've seen this season with how he's dealt with what is the first big

injury of his season and then coming back. And I think he had to work extremely hard just to make those Champions League games, which was his target. And mentally cope with with that injury I think it's been a very very big season for him very long season for him and and of course this will be his last game of that campaign tomorrow in Nottingham. The last thing he said to us when he left the room was that he is ready for his holiday. But also Bukai Osaka he is one of the players isn't he that I would think Thomas Tuchel has got penned in to be a starter. I think so. I think with Harry Kane who we know will be captain and I think Saka off the right will, is one of those which you would think if

he's fit that is one that he will start and then obviously Jude Bellingham as well. But it's quite, it's sometimes easy to forget about that standing because it has been a difficult season from international wise. We haven't seen him since October and then obviously missing the March international when it was Thomas Tuchel, our first sight of his England team. I would expect him to have a very, very important part this time next year when we're in, when we're at the World Cup and it will be the case of what Tuchel can, how he uses him in the qualifiers before that and I'm sure he'll be one of the key players for England. Because the same applies, doesn't it,

to Thomas Tuchel's England as it did to Gareth Southgate's England in that, in my opinion, for England to actually get over the line and win something, they need probably most, if not all, of their leading players to be giving of their best on the big stage. Yeah, but of those big players, we probably haven't seen the best of Phil Foden in an

England shirt. There are question marks over Phil Foden. Thomas Tuchel brought him in for the last squad to show him a little bit of love, but then he's since talked about the difficulties that he's had this season. You wonder about the dynamic of the starting 11. How can they get Cole Palmer into that starting 11? Who plays on the left? You know, there are other question marks as well about potential, you know, who's going to be a holding midfielder

to get the best out of your Rice and your Bellingham. Harry Kane another year older, but we imagine Harry Kane with his experience, another prolific season at Bayern Munich, one would assume would start. Harry Kane, who's played every minute so far under Thomas Tuchel in the three matches and Thomas Tuchel said today about the Senegal game It's very likely it is going to be the same captain Well, the reason I asked him that was because I was thinking

Potentially if I thought maybe Ivan Tony would start and I thought if that means that Harry Kane's not Could we then see Bakaru S Osaka potentially as an England captain? So that was the reason I asked in which to elicit that response that you just mentioned from Thomas Tuchel but undoubtedly he is seen as As a main player and quite rightly so he should be but his first appearance under Thomas Tuchel who says he's excited to see him in the white shirt of England. Mike, what about the, we are thinking ahead to the World Cup next summer, the heat and the humidity that there will be there,

how does that marry up with England playing Premier League style football? Well, even Thomas Tuchel said himself at the weekend, art style will change in the heat. England can't play at 100 miles an hour in that heat. There will be Harry Kane, who's a year older. It will be, I think, that this is why it's very important now to start getting into a style of play in the heat of Barcelona as well. I feel that the great England teams, the great England sporting teams have, I'm talking about Ashes 2005 winning and won the Rugby World Cup, they come off a very

long run-up of a year, more than a year of playing well, playing together and getting used to winning. So that's why this is really important now. And I think that this is what we have to see in these games. We didn't see it in Barcelona, but we have to start seeing them playing in those patterns, which will be effective in that heat next season. At the end of next season, it's not going to be difficult. I don't think the answers are there at the moment, but he's got to find them over the next few months. Just want to ask you as well about Jordan Henderson, who turns 35 next week.

Are you expecting that if he's fit and plays all next season, wherever he's going to be playing, do you think, are you expecting that he'll be in the England World Cup squad if they call off her? Well, Thomas Tuchel's come in and he's only focused on one thing. He's not focused on player development or, you know, getting the pathway through to, from the young players and blooding young players. He's focused on the World Cup. So if he's picking him and Dan burn now you'd expect you would think that they're in his plans for next year and

I felt that Jordan Henderson was actually missed around the camp At the euros. I thought that they really missed that leadership Because they didn't have Madison who's a big character. They didn't have Jack Grealish who's a big character and they did miss him. In a squad of 26, there is space for that, is that true? That is true. Will he be a match-winning player in that at the World Cup? I'm not so sure. And I personally, my personal view, I can't believe Adam Wharton wasn't picked in the March ones. I know there's a concussion question mark over him now, but I would be getting Adam Wharton into this team

very, very quickly and building him up towards next summer rather than Jordan Henderson. But obviously it's not my decision. Well, in in March he says you know clearly the the target for Wharton was to be part of the squad at the Euro under-21s that's not been possible now I think Thomas Tuchel said something like Jordan Henderson brings so much more than a young player does to the squad but I do get the feeling that that is something

that is being widely questioned. We spoke a lot in Barcelona, whether it be on a podcast or live on BBC Radio 5 Live, about Jordan Henderson. And I, like Mike, think that because of his role within the squad, he will be there. The only difficulty, I guess guess for Thomas Tuchel would be if he's not playing regular football in the season leading up to the World Cup. But

if he is, whether that be at Ajax or a little bit closer to home, then I think he'd be part of that final squad of 26. What is going to be interesting is the other Jordan, Jordan Pickford from a goalkeeping point of view, because all of a sudden there's going to be greater competition next season. If Crystal Palace, from their point of view, because all of a sudden, there's going to be greater competition next season, you know, if Crystal Palace, you know, from their point of view, they are in Europe with no, they're not with all the ownership issues that they've got. Dean Henderson playing European football, where will James Trafford be? Could be playing potentially Champions League football. If Jordan Pickford is not playing European football at Everton which he won't be

therefore the other two could close the gap on him so I think the goalkeeping situation probably for the first time in a long time going into the World Cup Jordan Pickford could be facing serious competition. Thank you very much to Ian and to Mike McGrath first time you and I will commentate on England at the city ground isn't it because the last one there official international was 1909 that is right and that was City Ground 19 oh played Ireland at Trent Bridge in 1897 which was 3-0 at the City Ground 1909 a 2-0 win over Wales George Holly and Burt Freeman but they did play Wales in a wartime friendly in 1941 84 years ago and they won by four goals to one. So their homework has been done. And we weren't at that one either. So there we are we will have commentary on England Senegal also by the way we

will have commentary coming about England's matches at the European under 21 championship they start later this week. Commentary as well to come this summer on the women's Euros in Switzerland, which kicks off later this month. But yes, as I say, England, Senegal, Five Live the Place to listen to that and BBC Sounds 7.45 on Tuesday night.