Football Daily - England squad announcement reaction as Tuchel recalls Toney

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

Chief football correspondent John Murray is joined by The Sunday Times’ Jonathan Northcroft and BBC Sport’s Alex Howell to reflect on Thomas Tuchel’s second England squad in charge. Hear from the England manager himself as he explains the call-up for Saudi-based Ivan Toney as well as the omissions of Phil Foden, Jarrod Bowen and Marcus Rashford. Could some time-off be exactly what Phil Foden needs? Tuchel also discusses the rollercoaster season that has earned Trevoh Chalobah his first senior call-up. Plus, are we seeing a changing of the guard in the England back-line, as no Manchester United or Manchester City players feature in the squad? TIME CODES: 2’55 Thomas Tuchel interview 9’37 Will some time off benefit Phil Foden? 15’06 Should Ivan Toney have been called up? 18’37 Should Dominic Solanke feel hard done-by? 19’31 Trevoh Chalobah’s inspired season 19’53 A change of the guard in England’s back-line? Radio 5 Live/ BBC Sounds Commentaries: Saturday 24th May - 1500 - Scottish Cup Final: Aberdeen v Celtic - Sports Extra 3 Saturday 24th May - 1700 - Women’s Champions League Final: Arsenal v Barcelona - BBC Radio 5live Sunday 25th May - 1600 - Premier League: Nottingham Forest v Chelsea - BBC Radio 5live

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello from outside Wembley Stadium. I'm John Murray. I'm looking up at the sunlit arch of Wembley Stadium. And this is a little bonus Football Daily podcast for you to react to the announcement of Thomas Tuchel's second England squad for the June World Cup qualifier against Andorra in Barcelona and the friendly against Senegal in Nottingham and to discuss it with me I have Jonathan Northcroft from the Sunday Times and also my BBC colleague Alex Howell and

I think it's fair to say isn't it you two that the names we weren't necessarily Expecting to see here were Ivan Tony and Trevor Chalabar Yeah, I mean especially Trevor Chalabar Ivan Tony was trailed in the in the morning papers, which was a surprise. I think when it when it came out. There's a lot of reasoning and sense to it when Thomas broke it down for us. Chalabar wouldn't have put money on that but it's also who's been excluded for him to come in that's interesting. Alex? Like Jonathan has said, you see the names and there's some shock but with most of Tuchel's decisions once you hear him out

you think okay fair enough you kind of understand the point he's making Chalabah ahead of Maguire. It might have been a question mark, but then you think about it rationally and it is probably right. Before we discuss it further and also we'll hear from Thomas Tuchel very shortly, I'm just going to try and summarize who's in and who is out. So I mentioned Chalabah and Tony, Olly Watkins Bukayo Saka, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Cole Palmer all returned. Remember Cole Palmer withdrew from the last squad. Also Connor Gallagher is back in so he's recalled. Nonny Madweke as well who we saw in the autumn. So they are all in. Still in are Dan Byrne, Jordan Henderson and Rhys James but the absentees no Phil Foden, no

Jared Bourne, no Marcus Rashford, no Dominic Salanchi, we'll come on to all of that, no Mark Gay as well and there are reasons surrounding that and also a lot of the youngsters who you might have been thinking might be in here like Adam Wharton, Tino Liverimento not included, Jorrell Kwanza, Jared Brathwaite, Rico Lewis, Liam Dalap, all of those young players I would be expecting that they will be in the under 21 squad for the Euros this summer in Slovakia when England and Lee Carsley defend their title but also as Jonathan's mentioned no Harry Maguire, no Ben White, he's not back here, no Jack Grealish amongst others. So we will discuss all of that after we hear my chat with Thomas Tuchel about his squad selection and this was our conversation.

Thomas, your second squad selection with England, was this less tricky than the first? It's always tricky because we have a lot of good players and we have a lot of players who deserve to be picked but we have a restriction of 26 spots. So like last time, many discussions and long discussions but this will never change, it's part of the job. Just like the first time, you pulled a couple of, I would say, minor surprises in Ivan Thoney and Trevor Chalaba. Tell us about Ivan Thoney and Trevor Chalaba. Tell us about Ivan Thoney first of all, what is it that you like about him? And also, I take it you have no qualms about the level of football that he's playing?

No, I don't know the level exactly, that's why I told you last time I tried to squeeze a visit in Saudi into my schedule, which did not happen because I didn't find the time to visit him so we thought why not bring him over and check out his form and his personality is huge. He had a big contribution to the Champions League title that his team won, had a big contribution within the season. He scored over 20 goals in 29 appearances. The experience is that other national teams like Spain nominate players from Saudi Arabia. I think that is a meanwhile a normal process. We selected him, we selected Oli Watkins because they

were not with us in the last camp. So we can see him. It's maybe one of the last chances to get to know to some players in a big squad and in an environment where we have a lot of training, before it becomes a bit more competitive and more condensed in September, October, November. You mentioned his character, his personality. Already in the two squads that you've picked, that seems to be something that you are quite strong on That kind of thing you know people who are big

Figures yeah, yeah And I love that that we have some new winners in the group that Newcastle and Crystal Palace and Tottenham Hotspur Has got their titles because this does something to your personality It's important that to bring it over the line even if you have maybe not on your best performance But just to push it over the line to get this title in your hands. But important for international football, yeah? It's important I think for every team. I built every team on the shoulders of personalities and on players who are happy to take the responsibility.

So Ivan is one of these players, Olli Watkins for sure as well because it comes with age and with experience. Now let's see how they act, how they are within the group and hopefully they are in their best behaviour and best shape. I'm happy to have them in camp to spend some days with them, to see them in training, to get a clearer picture for, like I said, for September, October, November. Now Trevor Chalabla, you will know his personality.

And I think it's, I mean, what a season he's had to be surplus to requirements at Chelsea at the start of the season. Obviously played very well for Palace. Come back, start regularly for Chelsea. And here he is in the England squad. Yeah, tells you already a lot about his, to not be angry, to not be too disappointed. In the beginning of the season Chelsea decided it's better for him to go on loan, so he

played for Palace, went back in winter. In the half a season he played at Chelsea, played a massive part, they are still in the race for the Champions League places. He has a European final coming up next Wednesday and that's the reward now that we pick him and we selected him because we think he deserved it. And I just want to ask you as well about some of the players that are not included, namely Phil Foden, Jared Bowen and Marcus Rashford who we know has been injured at the end of the season. Well you explain. Marcus is injured, it's as easy as that, otherwise he would have been with us.

Phil is a little bit injured, he's complaining about ankle problems which he cannot get rid of since the Manchester derby. And he had not a good spell at the club since last camp. He struggled to get minutes, he struggled to be decisive and given the circumstances with his ankle problems we both decided, Phil and me, we both decided it's maybe better to give him a bit of time off to not make him come to camp and then make him go to Club World Cup to give him a bit of time off. Let him breathe, clear his head, get rid of his ankle problems and then be more refreshed at the Club World Cup, which I will also monitor and be close.

That hurts a lot because I love Phil as a person in camp, he was fantastic, I love him as a player, the talent is outstanding, but at the moment this is the decision. A bit the same for Gerrit Bowen, it's a very hard decision because he was involved in a lot of goals for West Ham after the first camp. But Saka is back on the right wing and for his position as a striker we decided to have a look at Oli and Ivan Thoney who were not in our first camp. Just finally, on Phil Forden, we shouldn't be worried about him, should we? His career as you know has gone, the trajectory has been dramatic until this season.

Maybe we got all so used to his highest level that we are now, like you said, maybe we are worried but I think there is no reason to be worried. I think it's maybe just a dip in his development. Lately he needs to find a little bit of joy in his game. It's not so easy, it's not falling easy into his feet, into his rhythm. So yeah, he's struggling but he's still so young and he's still so full of talent. Like I said, I had a good phone call with him, everything is fine. I loved him as a person in camp. His talent, we don't need to talk about his talent and now we will do more or less everything to bring him back to form and hopefully the main part is still on him and he will come back." In Focus, on the Football Daily, every Saturday, catch the biggest names from the Premier League and beyond as they share all with nothing off limits.

It's beautiful, you know, to have reached more points than even last year, break a record again. The level that we got at the moment is just incredible and it's beautiful to play for a club with the ambition that they have. In Focus, only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Football Daily podcast on BBC Sounds. So there we are, Thomas Tuchel discussing at the end there, Foden not being in the squad Jonathan Northcroft, Alex Howell with me. I think it's very well reasoned why Phil

Foden is not in the squad but if you remember this time last year he was sweeping the boards, started every match at the Euro sweeping the boards in terms of the the player of the year awards and now here he is not in the squad. Yeah it was interesting to hear Thomas talk about this being a blip in his development because I think that was a reference to this trajectory that Phil was on a year ago it was going to be his summer it was going to be his tournament he was going to be the man and 12 months later not just for Manchester City but in his England career things have stalled. But as Alex was saying, with Thomas what you get is a lot of detail in the answers, a lot of explanation.

And I found it fascinating listening to him about Phil Foden, because it's clear that he looks at somebody not just as a player but as a person. And talking about his need to refine the joy in his game, his life, clear his head, become refreshed. There's a fascinating combination with Tuko where he's here for the short term, but he's trying to look after these players as human beings in almost a more long-term way, which I find a very interesting dynamic of his management. And he did, Thomas Tuko, reference the abuse that Phil Foden received at the Manchester Derby You know, so the insinuation there is that that has affected him

Yeah, and that was a high-profile and very personal incident wasn't it? So you can understand the reason in why it would affect Phil Foden and as Tuchel said he's still such a young player Isn't he? I think it's also continuing from what Tukul said after the last two games. When Phil Foden played, he didn't have his rhythm, did he? He said, might need to give him that time. And then he's had a look, taking those factors into account and thought maybe with Bakao Sakka coming back,

who has slipped under the radar in this squad with all the other talking points, Tukul referenced when he was speaking to you that because Saka comes back on the right wing so that's that's his position. And Madueke as well of course who did impress in the automath. Exactly and his role we kind of see Madueke now you've got the impact you've got Saka so there probably is the perfect time now to give Phil Foden that breather. However it feels as though if ever there was a player who needs a little break, it's him. Oh, I think it is him for what he's been through as a person.

But also, he's a kid that's played a lot of minutes. It did come off this incredibly important season to him, and I think last summer hit him harder than nearly anyone else. I remember speaking to Phil in Bankenheim when he did a writers gathering and he was so determined that this was going to be his moment. This was his England breakthrough and I think it did hit him personally very hard. I don't know about you, and I've said it over and over again this time last year, I felt that if England were to win that tournament, the Euros, you know they needed certain players

to be at the top of their game, he was absolutely one of them and it almost felt that he was cursed at that tournament. You know, he did everything but score. Yeah, he's had a couple of sliding doors moments as you say John. Goals have gone in early, you know, he started games well, they didn't happen for him and then you'd see him becoming visibly discouraged. I also felt that he's so tactically conscientious probably because of his training under Guardiola that England when they descended into that tactical chaos that we saw at the Euros he was still trying to carry out instructions. You'd be seeing them at left back and right back. Yeah and where I feel for him is we

still don't quite know what his role is in this team and Thomas played him as a right winger with the instruction that he wants his wingers to go one-on-one and beat players and get crosses in and get into the box. That's not his game. So on top of all the personal issues there's still even now almost 50 games into his career and uncertainty as to what type of player he's going to be for England. Yeah and fact is in those areas with England there is a lot of competition. You know there are other players as well who aren't included in this one. Really is and number 10 if Tuchel

continues playing 4-2-3-1 that's Jude Bellingham's role isn't it? Declan Rice one other Jude Bellingham that's and then Phil Foden is he going to get back to that level is he ever going to knock Bellingham off of that number 10 we saw Southgate try him last summer off the left no one's really nailed down that position either so it is like Jonathan was saying where exactly do you do you fit him in he's got so much talent and then you hear people say and he has got the talent to to warrant that you should build around him but England have so much depth in those areas. And it's before you mentioned Cole Palmer and then Eberie Eze who, Tuchel's a big fan, a very big fan and it's clear that he's really on the up in his England career

so the playing field's getting more crowded for Phil Foden. Just on Eze you can see Tuchel celebrating with him when he was lifting the trophy at Wembley, just like Anthony Barry giving him a big hug as well, which probably shows how much he does think of him. And like you say, moments and momentum which Phil Foden hasn't got. Eze scored his first England goal in his last game for England and no one's grabbed that left wing, there's no Rashford, Anthony Gordon's fallen off. So it could be Eze's time to really stake his claim.

So that's Phil Foden, let's go back to Ivan Thoney here. So he moves from Brentford to Saudi Arabia for 40 million pounds. He was in the Euros squad, he played in the final, he came on as a substitute in the final in Germany last summer but he's made his move to Saudi Arabia. 29 years old, playing in the same team as Roberto Firmino and Riyad Mahrez for example, won the Asian Champions League

Cup final earlier this month. 29 goals in 43 appearances but as we heard from Thomas Tuchel he's not been to Saudi Arabia to watch him play No, I believe he's watched a few games on TV But he's also took note of the fact that other countries don't have a problem picking players who are playing in Saudi And he talked about wanting to bring him to us bring him to the camp If I can't go to Saudi will bring him to me and I'll I want to feel him That's what he's been saying. And again this comes back to how much importance took place on someone's personality, behaviours, what they're like in a camp. We heard him extol Jordan Henderson in incredible terms for what he

does in training. So I think it's all of that with Tony. Clearly takes winning things seriously. So he really talked up that Asian Champions League winners medal as something that would be transformative to Tony as well. And I personally see it as Gareth Southgate similarly as well, that Tony is the most natural fit if Kane is injured. He's the most similar in terms of profile. And I think when you see Ollie Watkins play,

although he had the amazing moment in the semiffinal last summer for the Euros it does really change the way England play the wingers are looking for him the number tens they want to connect with the striker and Watkins is always looking the other way whereas Ivan Tony wants to be that focal point it's more similar to Harry Kane so if you are if you do have to lose him you have a natural fit after. Well look, Gareth Southgate picked Jordan Henderson when he was playing in Saudi Arabia. But, you know, what credence do we give to the fact that he scored all these goals playing for Al-Akhli? Is it wrong to talk that down, or is it right?

I don't know, is the answer, because I'm not watching Saudi Pro League football and I guess you could flip it on its head and say that there's a player that's playing in the kind of conditions that we might see in the US next summer and is thriving. There's a player that's made a quite difficult move in terms of assimilating to another league and culture and has made a success of it. You could look at it in those terms. There's a player that's become more of a star by making his move and Tuco wants players who are big characters and big stars. So he may look upon this as a positive, all of it as a positive. I think a lot will depend on what he sees from Ivan Tony in training in the camp

and what he sees from him Thony in training in the camp and what he sees from him around the place as a person. I agree and have that kind of aura as an elite goalscorer, yes, he's with our ally in the in the Saudi Pro League but he scored at Brentford in the Premier League and also that experience of going deep in a tournament with England bringing it back to Tuchel saying he wants to win. Thony scored a penalty didn he, as England were on their way to the final. He played in the final. He's been at a camp for a long time, so we'll know he travels well.

All of those things mixed in with, well, I think anyway, his being similar in profile, I think that's probably why he's in. But what does Dominic Salanke think, who is playing in the Premier League, has just won a trophy with Tottenham and he's not in the squad. And I know that Thomas Huckel spoke to him and Thomas Huckel said, yes, I had a look at him last time, but he was an unused substitute in both matches. Yeah, I was going to say, Salanke's the loser in all of this.

There's no doubt he's taken a step back and all the things we've said about Tony becoming a champion, you could actually apply to Dominic Salanke and yet it's not enough to get him into the squad. There's also the Liam de Lapp factor who's, you know, going to be with the under-21s but possibly the next cab off the rank in forward terms. And as you said, John, it's really interesting that Szilanky didn't even get on the pitch. You know, given what I've been saying about how Tuchel observes people in training and so on and makes decisions based on that, I thought that was telling. So that's Ivan Toney. We should really have a little word on Chalabar, as I said to Thomas Tuchel, to go from out of the picture at Chelsea at the start of the season, out on loan, play well for Palace, come back to Chelsea, then actually be quite an important player in Chelsea's defence and now he's in the England squad.

And I think his future is still up in the air as well, so it's been a really strange season for him. I saw Mark Gahey, who's not in the squad, actually did a post on social media saying about Palace's success and saying how much they actually owed to Trevor Chalabar because of how he played this season. So like you say, he's had a long season of good form. I did think it was quite important actually that Tuko again giving that reasoning, coming back to giving insight into his thoughts saying that that whole left-sided centre-back debate saying that Gahey can play there, you have Levi Cole will and then Chalabar is probably above Harry Maguire and did reference didn't he that he's battling

for the Champions League and Maguire is not. It's a brilliant story isn't it? I think a year ago he was in Mareska's bomb squad wasn't he? He was collecting his packed lunch and training with the kids. I mean to go from there winding through the palace low into here's. But Mareska did a vault-fras on him didn't he? Well yeah so that he's won that situation which is an achievement in itself I think it's really bad news for Harry Maguire and we are starting to see a change of the

guard at the back if you think that one the foundation of Gareth Southgate's tournaments was you know stones Maguire Walkerppier, that kind of block that was there and they've all, one by one, they're all sort of going. I mean Kyle Walker's still in the squad, but whether he can make it to the US, I'm not sure. Stones, goodness knows, another season of injuries and so on and it is for Harry Maguire not to be able to get in having finished the season well at United and Tuchel spoke nicely about him and let's left the door open but is clearly looking at younger players and as Alex said is looking at that balance that left-right balance and the fact that

Colwell and Chalaba have been a combination for Chelsea is in his favour as well. And with Kyle Walker being in the squad but as we speak now he is still at AC Milan, that means there is not a single Manchester City or Manchester United player in the England squad, which is a remarkable thing to say. Just want to mention as well the FIFA Club World Cup, the newly expanded Club World Cup, which begins on June the 14th in America. So England play Senegal at the City Ground on June the 10th. Thomas Tuchel says that all 26 in this squad

will start and finish with the squad. What do you make of that? Well, one of the big questions coming to Wembley today was, is he going to leave some of those Club World Cup players out? Especially when you were talking about players like Harry Kane, Jude Bellingham, they're not bit part of players, they're absolutely fundamental for club and country and it was really interesting to hear Tuco Lumpak that and admit that him and his staff have had

discussions, asked themselves should we do this and came to the conclusion that actually the message that would send, he talked about wanting to worship every moment I think was his phrase worship every moment that we have together with limited time blah blah blah and therefore the most important thing here is to have every minute that he can with these players I suspect they won't play both games I did take that away that was my takeaways from how he talked about it. But yeah, I would, I'm slightly surprised that there's been no compromise on this. We will see that juggling out, you know, he's made that clear. But I think also this week that England will be together, it's virtually a week that they'll be together, but most of that

they will be together preparing for the Andorra match just outside Barcelona. So I think there's, I don't know about you, and it feels like there's going to be quite the attempt at team building under Tuchel with that. There really is that and someone said to me the reason that's done is because they didn't want to lose the travel time from going to St. George's Park to then go to Barcelona so they're going to go straight there to build their training camp and like you say try and get that momentum as a squad and the messaging across but I do think it's interesting you could kind of see the club manager in Tuchel coming out

because he kind of I think ideally he said he understands it and he I think as a manager he probably liked to release the players but he can't because of what he is building and he has to think about the the England team first. Right that's it that's all we've got time for Jonathan Northcroft, Alex Howell thank you very much and that is it from Wembley. Five Live will be the place to listen to commentary on Andorra England from Barcelona and England Senegal from Nottingham next month and before that tomorrow there will be two football dailies the first from here at Wembley big day championship playoff final Sheffield United against Sunderland

and the second from Lisbon with all the reactions of the Women's Champions League final between Arsenal and Barcelona. The commentary on which can be heard of course on Five Live and BBC Sats. It's the scandal that rocked Rugby Union to its core. The so-called Bloodgate scandal. Tom Williams now receiving attention. It seems so clear that this wasn't real blood. It's out and out cheating. This is a story of lies and deception, conspiracies and cover-ups.

There was terror that it could tear the house down. Courtroom drama and secret deals. So obviously a lie. And a human cost that changed lives and careers forever. Dean Richards is found guilty and banned for three years. I'm Ross Kemp and this is Sports Strangers Crimes, Bloodgate. Listen on BBC Sounds.