Football Daily - Euro Leagues: Is spying acceptable in Europe? Neuer & Neymar return to the World Cup

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Steve Crossman is joined by Rafa Honegstein, Julien Laurens and, James Horncastle. The panel give a continental view on ‘spygate’ and how Southampton’s actions have been viewed around the rest of Europe. It’s something that occurs regularly in Europe, but has anything to this scale ever occurred before?Manuel Neuer has come out of international retirement to be named in Julian Nagelsmann’s Germany squad for the World Cup. Is this shocking given how insistent both Neuer & Nagelsmann were that this wouldn’t happen? Hoffenheim’s Oliver Baumann has been backed as Germany’s new number one when Neuer retired after the 2024 Euros, and some fans want him to keep his place. Elsewhere, Neymar will return to the Brazil squad after it looked like he may have been set to miss the tournament.Elversberg will be one of the smallest teams to have ever played in Germany’s top division, having been promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history, having finished the season in second in 2. Bundesliga. The club has bounced back having just missed out on promotion the season before, then losing the manager of six years Horst Steffen to Werder Bremen. The panel are joined by Lars Joeckel from ELV Friends Bliesen fan group to reflect on a historic season.And it’s the final weekend of the Serie A season with several clubs chasing Champions League football. Cesc Fabergas’ Como are one of the main talking points of the season. And are there issues brewing at AC Milan and Juventus.TIME CODES 00:00 Intro 01:20 Continental view on spying 02:00 Spying in Germany 03:50 Spying in Italy 05:50 Journalists spying 12:00 The profile of Tonda Eckert 15:30 Manuel Neuer’s Germany return 18:50 Julian Nagelsmann’s socks 19:50 A potential goalkeeper headache for Germany? 21:00 German goalkeepers 25:00 Neymar is back for Brazil 28:10 Could the pressure become a problem? 32:20 Joao Pedro left out 35:20 SV Elversberg reach the Bundesliga 41:00 Rafa trying not to spoil the fairytale 43:20 Looking forward to the Bundesliga 44:30 What club does Rafa actually like? 45:50 Champions League race in Serie A 48:00 Issues at AC Milan & Juventus5Live commentaries this week: Sat 15:00 Dunfermline v Celtic - Scottish Cup Final (Sports Extra) Sun 16:00 Spurs v Everton Sun 16:00 West Ham v Leeds (Sports Extra) Sun 16:00 Crystal Palace v Arsenal (Sports Extra 2) Sun 16:00 Brighton v Manchester United (Sports Extra 3)

On the Football Daily podcast, the Euroleaks, with Steve Crossman. Welcome to the Euroleaks. Coming up, World Cup squad announcements as Manuel Neuer comes out of international retirement, and Neymar is picked for Brazil. We'll also speak to a supporter of FC. Oh, Raf Honestine. I knew I was going to get that wrong. Can you help me please?

Svau. Elfersberg? Elversberg. Once more with feeling? Elversberg. Elversberg. Good feeling. Etow Elversberg.

So we're going to speak to one of their fans. It's a town of just 13,000 people. The club have been promoted to the Bundesliga for the first time in their history. Raff is with us. The Athletics, James Horncastle is with us. Hello. Hi, Chrossey.

Some great stories that we're going to get into. I'm really looking forward to talking about the World Cup squads. When are Italy announcing theirs? Oh, Grosy. Every time I'm on. I mean, I'm trying to. I'm clearly here to talk about. Carlo Ancelotti's decision to bring in Namar.

That's what I'm following. I'm the Ancelotti Whisper for the next six weeks. So there we go. Lovely. ESPN's Julianne is going to join us very, very shortly as well. We're going to start tonight with a continental view on spying. So just bear with us here because I think we've probably done enough on the Southampton-Midelsbrough spy gate. That said, some startling revelations.

If you go over to the BBC Sport website, there are loads of great pieces about it, about what's been happening at Southampton and the written reasons for them being expelled from the playoffs. However, one of the phrases that keeps coming up time and time again is, oh, this happens all the time in Europe. So I have been very, very keen to ask you all, Raff. Does it?

Well, it happens often enough for Oliverna, the Abbey Leipzig coach only a month ago saying, yeah, of course we had drones, we had people in the bushes. We do all sorts of stuff. And nobody battened eye at that revelation. So it is true. And I had to think back and do a bit of research, but we had some cases where Werder Bremen had a drone flying over Teeska-Hofenheim's training session

when Yule Nagutsman was there in 2019, I think. The scout who did it was fine, but not by the FA, just by the police, because it's not allowed to fly a drone without the permit. Very German, 500 euros fine. But Nagitzmann laughed it off completely, said, we don't care. We got nothing to hide. And there was a similar case, I think a few years ago when Cologne spied on Hamburg at a training, ground in Dubai and then somebody else said yeah we had to chase people we chase people all the time from when they are you know on our last training session so it seems to be part of the game

and of course edin terzic the new athletic bill bowel manager is on the record and saying that when he was an opposition scout he would dress up as a steward to sneak into the closed session from real Madrid at Dortman the day before the game and and watch their training. But I guess on Championship nights, when you have that training session in the opposition ground, everyone knows that they're being watched anyway. So, yeah, I think there is some merit in saying

or some truth in saying that, at least in German-speaking countries, there's a more relaxed attitude towards spying. Maybe it's because of the Cold War history. James? Well, one of the funny stories of the last couple of years was Ivan Urich, who was a Southampton coach. Oh, of course, yeah. Easy to forget that, to be honest with you, but yes.

Anyway, so when he was in charge of Torino, he sent a collaborator of his, I think it was Michele or Eurekio, to go and watch Roma's training sessions at Trigoria, the last training session, what they call the refinitura. And he was spotted by one of, Jose de Marino's assistance. And so this was raised.

The collaborator, I think, was moved, was basically told to be on your way. And then the following year, when Rome were due to play Torino again, the guy was found in the same bushes. Different coach, DeNossey was in charge of Rome at that time. It was like, since there's someone in the bushes there,

and lo and behold, it was the same guy. I mean, I have to say that the drone, the drones is lazy, isn't it, really? I mean, we're talking about some of the lengths that people go to. I think the drone's quite high-tech, cross-sea. I think it's being in the bushes in sort of camouflage clothing. That is very sort of low-tech. But I appreciate that. ESPN's Julianne LaRone has now joined us.

Hello, Jules. Hello, guys. Sorry about that. No, it's fine. I know you're having technical trouble and not spying. on the commentator's view to see what they're getting up to for their native. That's right, isn't it? Not this week, no, yeah, that's right. Every other week, though.

Every other week. Now, you've arrived at the perfect time here because you won't have heard Raff and James have just told us a few stories of things that have happened on the continent. I would quite like to turn the conversation to when journalists get involved in spying missions. Now, I don't know what Raph and James have been up to in the past, but I think we could describe you as prolific. I was the best, really.

I was literally the best. I won't lie as a young journalist. It was not really spying for the opposition per se, directly, you could say. Although maybe, you know, when France were playing Germany or Italy, somebody in their camp where I was reading either the keep, because I was not on my own, obviously, but the team or the Parisian on the day of the game because we used to spy the last training before the game.

So the day before the game, the one behind closed door, especially in the big tournaments, even before the World Cup final, even before a, you know, semi-final or something, or huge game in qualifiers and things like that. And we've done all sorts.

I mean, I'm not sure, I'm not sure if I can tell all the secrets of that, but we're hitting toilets for a long time to stay in the ground to be able to watch, just to find out the team and then to be able to report on who was going to play for France. You know, it was like that.

And I think that at the heart of it was more the competition between Le Kippe newspaper and the Parisian newspaper. Right. And who would get that info first, more than anything else, really. But he got, under Dominic, he got huge, huge,

it took huge proportions to the point that I remember very well. I think I've told this story before, but my mother-in-law, God bless her soul, in Cardiff, reading the Guardian that this French journalist were spying on the training of their own team and that Raymond Dominic was not happy and called us traitors to the nation.

You know, and she said, like, I hope this is not Julian. You know, and my wife, Kate, but no, no, no, don't worry, but it was me. But Jules, Jules, I mean, to find out Dominic's lineup, all he needed was the astrology. Lios, you know, not too many Leo's. Scorpio, you can have more than two in your team.

I think the famous quote that I remember, just for anybody listening who's like, I mean, I think most people will probably remember Raymond Dominick's bizarre spell in charge of France, But for those that don't, he loved his astrology. And I think that one of the quotes, Jules, about team selection was, I would never trust a Leo at the back. Something along those lines from memory.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not too many Leo's in your squad either. And when he took over with the French national team, he had six. And he said he got rid of four and only kept two, including Thierry. I mean, it was hard to get rid of Thierry at the time anyway. But yeah, yeah, he really believed. But when I say he believes strongly in it, it's not just his passion, but he thinks everything can be read into the cards

and all that kind of stuff has an impact on whatever your job is. I'm just imagining James Thomas Tuchel when he phoned up Harry McGuire being like, I've got one word for you, Harry, Libra, you're out. I'm so sorry. Yeah, I mean, managers do make strange decisions based on whims, all kinds of things. But it is remarkable, particularly at major tournaments, at the lengths that teams go to to actually protect themselves from the likes of Julianne Leone. Because I remember when I was...

I've got the best story. I need to tell you this best story. Talking about protecting very quickly, Euro's 2008, and this is the peak of the war between Dominique and the French media, not just us at the Parisian at the time, but every media. So when we went to Switzerland,

he protected the pitch where they were training so well. They had like fences everywhere and covers everywhere, and you could not see anything. You couldn't even access the roads because the police would close the road. And in Switzerland, you know, police is a serious thing. But one day it was only open for the first 15 minutes. We could see that there was this kind of farm,

kind of high up on a hill where you probably, with good binoculars, could be able to wash down on the pitch, right? And the day before, it was, that euros was disaster for us. We got knocked out in the group phase. There was tension. It was your fault. It was pre-2010.

I know, but anyway, the last day, the training behind, before the last day of the, before the last game, before we went home, we said, I, let's go for it. So training was at 10.30. The day before, we went, we went to see those farmers, and we said, listen, we explained. They found it hilarious. And I said to them, listen, I'll come at 6 a.m. I bring Panos chocolate. croissant, I bring you literally breakfast in bed.

If you just let me go in the attic and from there, I can probably see the training. And they went, yeah, yeah, no problem. We did that. The most, the best thing was there was a little like kind of railway behind the pitch where you had this small train every half an hour like just going past the pitch, right? And we decided to really annoy Dominic and do like literally a live, a live chat on the, on the training session that was supposed to be close from everywhere, you know, in the whole city. And we included 1035, the little train passes by Frank Ribeari and Raymond Dominique.

And we could see Dominique and the people from the French Federation and the team looking around, where are they? Because they were aware of the live description of the training behind closed doors. It was the best. Oh, it is good. One thing I did want to pick up on, Raff, is around Tondarekut, though. So like I said, the actual story story, if you like and the sanctions. I think we've kind of covered that.

And this is the Euroleagues after all. However, the commission's written reasons that have come out are really, really explosive, actually, around what happened at Southampton. And one of the things that has been revealed as part of it is the commission talking about how central a role Tonda Eckert played in the operation, but specifically about treatment of interns. So the commission found effectively a top-down system of pressuring these young people. it was described by the commission as being deplorable. And the reason I just think it's worth bringing up because it's linked to everything else around this story. Ton Decker's obviously a young German coach.

What was his profile before this? What is his profile now? He didn't have much of a profile because he'd never been at the call face before. He'd been an analyst. You know, you can read up on his various positions, but never in a head coaching job. And of course, he was the assistant coach

who was then promoted. And Southampton turned their season around as a result and then he got the job full time. But because he was not a household name, I guess the story wasn't quite as big. If this happened to a proper experienced German coach in the Premier League or in a championship, I think would have been a much bigger story

in Germany, but nobody really knows who Tonda Eckert is. And his profile now, I think he will recover from this. I think England might be difficult. We have to wait if there are consequences for him. The FA might still charge him, etc. But I think somebody who's clearly talented, who's clearly young and made a mistake, possibly because he wasn't fully aware of the strength of the rules here

in opposition or in contrast with what we said, earlier in Germany where it's sort of laughed off, I think he will recover and I think he'll get another chance somewhere. Do you think that extra bit of information from the commission's report might sort of shift the dial on that, that the commission has found that he was, because it's almost that about that, that news, that commission report almost takes it away from spying to kind of treatment of, you know, junior employees, doesn't it? So I'm just kind of wondering whether that sort of thing might shift the dial or not, I guess is what I'm asking.

I know it's a difficult question to ask, Raf, but it's just kind of because it's news that we've only got in the last hour. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, from what you read out, I think we have to read between the lines. It's not really that clear what actually happened. It clearly doesn't sound very complimentary and doesn't reflect well on him. But I think before we actually know what's going on. And, you know, I mean, football is a sort of business where people are literally

doing anything to get in. And as an intern, you are probably willing to take risks that you wouldn't in other jobs because you want to be involved in football. And I guess the same is true when it comes to wages in certain positions where people perhaps earn less than they would be in a normal job because clubs are sort of exploiting that a little bit. I've come across that a few times. So I'm not sure that's necessarily something that's unique in the situation.

of course we'll have to look a bit more detail, I think, before anyone can pass real judgment on it. Yeah, good answer to a bit of a hospital pass of a question, Raf. So thank you for that. I'm used to it, Steve. Hey, hey, that's not necessary. In Italian, you say ballone sanguinozo, which is, it's literally a bloody ball by which you mean, like, in passing that, it's going to hurt you. That ball is going to hurt someone. It kind of works. We say in Pass en bois, like a wooden pass, because it's, you know, that bad.

Yeah, I mean, it was that bad. It was both of those things. Right, we're going to stay in Germany. Let's talk about national team selections. There's some really good stories knocking around. We'll start with Germany, which is just about taken over with Manuel Noyer at 40 coming out of international retirement and being named in Julian Nagelsman's squad for the World Cup. Quote from him, everyone knows the aura and quality.

that Manu has, what he brings to a team. We're planning with him as our number one, Rath. Wow. So he's gone from completely out of it to number one, just like that. Well, you wouldn't bring him in as a third keeper. So I think that was always going to be either number one or nothing. But of course, for Mum, see, he would repeat the same mantra saying, I have retired, this is over, we don't have to talk about this.

Nagutsman was saying the same. Nagutsman was also telling Bauman. Oliver Bauman, that he is definitely the number one. And of course, Bauman is not best pleased. He's still going as a number two. But I think we can, again, read a lot between the lines in a statement that Hoffenheim released saying, of course, the national coach can pick whoever he wants, but anyone can have their own view on the style and the matter of communication.

So they are obviously not happy. and I think they're probably speaking on behalf of their keeper, saying this could have been handled more delicately. There's also the substance of the decision, of course, because Bauman hasn't had the best second half of the season. I think it's fair to say. Noir has had a very good second half of the season. He renewed his contract.

He feels still fresh. He still feels that he can contribute. He's not the same Noir that he was 10 or 20 years ago, but he is still a very good keeper and perhaps still the best Germany keeper. And Nagatzmann, who is not averse to changing his mind and doing U-turns, as we saw when he brought back Tony Cross two years ago before the Euros, has decided that all the noise and the annoyance, if you will, and the sort of slight unease that has greeted this decision is worth it

because Noyer in goal is still more valuable to him than Bauman. And Bauman has to live with that. There's one more interesting snippet to that, or maybe two. One is, of course, Mano-Noyer picked up an injury in the last game for Bayern and should recover in time, but has been injury prone this season. He's been missing quite a few games, so Baumann might still be the number one at some point. And I'm sure that point has been made to him by Nagetsman. But also, in a very bizarre twist, Nagetsman was wearing a pair of socks today at the press conference.

That had been given to him by Bauman as a farewell gift when he left Hoffenheim to Leipzig a few years ago. And he was asked about this by a journalist. And he basically said, yeah, it's true. I haven't really thought about it, but yeah, those were the socks. And there were socks with candy sticks. There were socks with candy sticks on them. So quite distinctive. Very strange.

Very strange. So if you're like a German story, it's got so much German in this story. Is it? Also, that's great journalism. Well, is it? I mean, it's slightly weird. Yeah, it's so weird.

I mean, it feels like, and I'm not suggesting this is the case, but it almost feels like a planted question. Because like, yeah, yeah. Maybe, but if it was, I mean, I'm not sure what the purpose of it was. I mean, yes, I'm wearing the socks that Oliver Baumann gave to me a few years ago as a sign of what,

of goodwill or that we have still a great relationship because I'm wearing his socks. I think the story would have been more German. The only thing he'd worn was socks. That was definitely not the case. Are you absolutely sure he didn't like walk on stage and just go, guys, I'm wearing Bowman tonight? Does sound like a great scent. I'm wearing Bowman.

Ruff, what happens if, here we are. If during the tour, like, let's say no your start. and then, I don't know, something changes during the tournament, could it, could it become a problem? Or do you think that even if, I don't know, something changes and Bowman is the number one, then starts and no-you-make-mistake in a game,

I don't know, something, just you want, something happens and he's not playing anymore? Could it be an issue, or you don't think there's this kind of cloud that could potentially be over the national team? I mean, I don't think, to be honest, it's going to have that much impact on Germany's fortunes. I think a

noyer who is not quite at his best anymore is still a better keeper than Oliver Baumann. That's my personal opinion. Neuer is occasionally injury prone and occasionally error prone these days. We saw that. But you

kind of put up with it the way Bainiff put up with it because you think, okay, even if he gives away a goal, as he did against Real Madrid in the quarterfinals, he still then makes two or three saves that no other keeper makes. so in the grand scheme of things there's still a net positive

and of course you know this is a team that isn't necessarily heavy on leaders on experience on winners so to have one guy who won the World Cup left in 2014 in this team

the last survivor I think is also of some benefit for Nagat's moment it comes to the sort of the leadership and the experience inside of the dressing room It's funny, Raff, because Germany and probably Italy come into the same bracket here. No, no, no, they don't come in the same bracket ever. I'm not when we talk about this World Cup. That's not what I was going to do.

I promise you, James. It's not even more recently than Germany. Yeah, the Euros, we don't care. What I was going to say is, when I think of those two nations, my first thought is always great goalkeepers, especially with Germany now when you think like Schumacher, Maya, Ilkner

obviously for me, Koppka is the first one I think of because of Euro 96, but then you've got Kahn and blah, blah, we could go on all night. Is it a bit of a damning indictment that that's the best option now is a 40-year-old Manuel Noyer?

Him being better than Bowman is one thing. His actual level for this major tournament is another question. Like, why don't they have somebody young who is up and coming and pushing the envelope? They have. The problem is that the guy who's pushing Neuer

is the Bayern second keeper, Jonas Ubbik. And it's very hard, even though a lot of people said he's actually the best keeper in the Bundesliga right now. It's very hard for Nagatzman to pick him ahead of regular starters. I mean, Ubek has played more this season,

but I think he's only had six or seven starts. So he is there in another curious twist as a fourth goalkeeper, but he's not part of the squad. So he's the 27th man. He's not part of the FIFA list. Oh, yeah. Actually, I think it's quite smart because with keepers,

you can still nominate them after the tournament has started if there's an injury. So rather than flying somebody out from Germany would then join late on if something happens to Noir. The guy is already there and he's clearly willing to just come along

even if his chances of playing are quite low as an understudy. But he is actually the keeper, I think, who will inherit Neuyer's gloves in the post-war Cup world. Should he buy Nogglesmund some socks? I'm not sure if it really enhances or reduces his chances. The jury's still out after the bowels.

Are those socks in sandals as well? Because that's very German. No, no, he was wearing trainers. But it's worth looking at them. I mean, they are very distinctive. I'm not sure I would wear them ever, but, you know. Nagrisman has a dress. I remember when it was the buy-in coach.

We used to, or a Leibaldives. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thomas, where did you get those gloves? They're great. Oh, Phil Foden gave them to me just before I picked the squat. Harry McGuire didn't give him socks. No, he didn't. And now we know that's an exclusive.

So here's the first ball of this series. All the cricket you laugh. Lives on BBC Sounds. Smash straight back down the ground. Here ball by ball coverage of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits. It's a ball cricket and it's the huge one. T-sports. Settled out of it.

Cricot on Five Live Sport. Oh, I've lived in every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds. You're listening to the Euroleagues on Five Live ESPN's Julianne the Athletics, James Horncastle, Raphaonixstein. All with us. Let's talk Brazil, Carlo Ancelotti squad. Obviously, the headline is that Namar is in.

No, Jouard Pedro, no Richarlison. We were talking about this, James, a lot around Namart. Did you expect him to be in it? Because I think, weirdly, I'm not sure I did. I think I've been taken by surprise that he's coming from the cold. Maybe I shouldn't be. I was taken by surprise because, you know, Carlo Antrolotti hasn't picked him up until now.

And yeah, Neymar has not played for his country since October, 2023. I think he's only played four times since the last World Cup. So even though I kind of back Carlo to be the one person who can make this work, because he is very good. I think one of his superpowers is his ability to create a group out of superstars and get everybody on the same page. I think that's what made him such a great Rail Madrid coach that those personalities that we've seen clash this year under Chabby Alonso

and Arbeloa didn't clash under Carl Archelotti. So, but on the one hand, like, I feel really bad for Zhao Pedro, who Chelsea named Player of the Year 15 minutes or so after It was announced that he would not be going to. But it just goes to show that the pressure that was placed on Carlo Ancelotti to make this call, you know, from all of the reporting seems to have been huge. You know, legends who have won World Cups from Brazil telling him to do it. Senior players in his squad telling him to do it.

And, you know, I mean, Calau Ancelotti is, you know, is used to working for some very high-powered individuals, you know, be it Sylvia Bollosconi, be it Roman Abramovich, but the Brazilian public might be the most demanding of all. And so, yeah, let's see how he copes with this. Because I think the one thing you could say about Brazil is, okay, you know, maybe they don't have a, you know, young up-and-coming player.

Now, particularly with what happened to Esteval, that you could look to and say, that kid is going to be the best player in the world in the way that Ronaldo looked like that player or Ronaldo looked like that player. But if you look at the recent conversations we've had about who's going to win the Ballandoor, well, you know, Real Madrid decided not to go to the Ballandoor ceremony

when Vincius Jr. didn't win it a couple of years ago. And Rafini was in the Ballandoor conversation. as recently as this time last year. So it doesn't necessarily feel like they needed, or Calanchotity needed to do this. Jules, I wonder if I could sort of throw your question back at you that you asked Raff about Noya around Namar. Could you become a problem?

Yeah, I think so. I think it's a very delicate balance that you will have to find. And Carlo, as Hornie just said, is very good at that. but what I find fascinating is even if Carlo is very good at it before confirming to Neymar on the phone they had a long phone call to say that he was part of the squad and go to the World Cup he had very clear rules to set

and said to Nehmer listen this is how it's going to happen this is what's going to happen if you don't want to be part of this no problem you say no I don't call you up later that day it was on Monday night when he announced there but you won't start so that's pretty clear So Neymar is aware that his position right now is not of a starter in this team,

but more as an impact sub at some point. And I'm not sure he's got the fitness anyway to play 90 minutes in a World Cup, in that heat at that time, let alone further down the tournament. That not too much social media, what we expect from you is that kind of experience older, big brother kind of approach

to, let's say, like a Ryan or those kind of young players. We mentioned Estevao earlier. And so it's a very very, very different role for Neymar than the last World Cup, where he was the captain and the key of the World Cup before. And he was so desperate to go that I guess he's satisfied by that role. But what happens if two weeks in, he's thinking, like, I don't just want to bring the water to the guys and, you know, do a bit of few drills of training and that's it. I want to play more. I wonder if inevitably for somebody like him who used to be one of the best in the world and

now he's really, let's be honest here, the shadow of himself, because I'm not even sure. sure that outside of that pressure that James nicely summed up, I don't really think he deserves to be there on the recent performances that he had and his behavior and attitude on and off the field. You know, he had this incident with Robino Jr. He had a spot with a Santos fan with a love like, you know, swear words and this and that. So I think Carlo said, okay, everybody wants him there. I'll take him. I'll set the rules. But really, on

pure football basis. I'm not sure he deserves to be there. All name are that he is, really. And also, cross it. Remember the circumstances in which Chelsea signed Zhao Pedro last year. It was in that bizarre kind of window for the Club World Cup. And he came in and took over that Club World Cup.

Where was that Club World Cup played? It was played in the heat of the summer in the US. And he made a fantastic impact as Chelsea went on to win that. That's why we all call Chelsea World Champions every three days. days. So, you know, I'm not sure Namar can deliver that. And this is a player, I mean, we've just gone from talking about Manuel Noyer's sort of injury troubles this year. This is a, this is a player that it's hard to get on the pitch. And just by dint of the way he plays, he invites tackles that, I remember, because Italy didn't qualify for the last World Cup.

I did cover Brazil and Argentina for the athletic. And I remember his ankle got kicked so badly that he was a doubt, I think, from maybe the second group stage games up until that quarterfinal against Croatia. And if our listeners haven't seen it, go and Google what his ankle looked like. I mean, I find it incredible that four years later, he's going to play in a world. given the state of his ankle four years ago. Should people definitely Google that? Are you sure of that, James?

Yeah, yeah. Do we need to put one of those asterisks on this or like a content warning? No, it's just a very swollen angle. Okay, fine, we can do that. Can you walk us through James the Joao Pedro video? Because I'm not necessarily a fan of the modern concept of the reveal video for major tournament squads

and if ever there was an advert for not doing it, then it's this. Yeah, so it was a little bit like the NFL draft where you've got camera crews in all of the family's houses and they're doing a watch-along. And there is a Jiao Pedro watchalong with his friends and family and you just hear Carlo Anceloese's voice in the background on the TV saying Vinicious Jr., Rafinia, Nemar Jr., and it's then when it sinks in that Zhao Pedro's name isn't going to be called.

And you just see people getting up from the table, walking around a few choice words being said. But devastating. And again, we've all seen that. That video has gone around the world. So, yeah, it's, and I think Neymar was one of, obviously one of Chow Pedro's idols as well. So it kind of bittersweet, you know, I'm sure he would have loved to have played with him at a major tournament. And instead, Neymar's taking his place.

I feel like, just give him a ring beforehand, just be like, listen, I know you're planning to do like a live, maybe don't. Maybe don't do it. Don't publish it. Have a word. Don't put it anywhere. Once it's done, yeah, don't just don't put it out. And also it's alphabetical order often. And I don't know why they,

no, I know why they all do it. All the national team head coachies pretty much do it. But when you're a player and you just wait, you know at some point the letters are getting closer to your name. And if your name is not mentioned, there's no second chance. You know, if he was not in order, you would hope, okay, maybe I'm the last one of the forward names and there's still a bit of hope.

But if you draw Pedro and you were not called either at the J or the P and then after that it's gone beyond, you know, it's just not for you. I prefer a question, quick question. Yeah. I mean, isn't Carl Ancelotti the soft of manager that we think would tell his player? Well, that's exactly the point. Yeah, I'm surprised. And let him down gently.

Well, I don't know. No, I mean, you know, he might still need Jiao Pedro in three months' time. Surely he must have sold it to him, explained it to him properly, so on. I mean, perhaps he did and Jiao Pedro didn't tell his friends and family. I don't know. We don't know. I like a more low-key one. I was at the Iceland squad announcement for the Euros in 2016, and Lars Lagabek did what I would describe as a GCSE-level PowerPoint

to announce the squad. And they went all the way through to the end, and the last name was Ida Good Johnson. And it was sort of met with a sort of almost like a roar from the Icelandic journalist. So I think low-key is better. That's the way to go. We're going to talk about Esvau-Elfusberg now, aside from a town of just 13,000 people who've been 13,000. Goodness. They've been promoted to the Bundesliga, first time in their history.

They just finished second in the Zvi Bundesliga. They've got one step further than they did last season when they lost the promotion relegation playoff to Heidenheim. Lars Jerkel is from the Elf Friends Blisen fan group and has joined us on the Euroleagues live. Lars, good evening. Good evening. Congratulations on your pre-Durkellegris. promotion. Just tell us what it means to you to have Elfsburg in the Bundesliga. It's unbelievable. You know, it's such a small tone playing in Forced League some years ago, crawling rapidly, and it's really something you need to believe in some month,

maybe if really Bundesliga is played in Elversburg. What is the secret to this then? And we'll talk a bit about, you know, money that goes in and all that kind of thing. That's always part of the story. What is the kind of special thing about this club and this town that's allowed it to achieve this? I think it's a complete package. It's a clear plan. It's continuity.

It's an incredible team spirit. So I think it's really unbelievable. As for example, Evertsburgh lost so many good players last year. And everyone was expecting to playing maybe at the end off the table. And now at the end, we make a promotion, which is quite unbelievable. And I think it's only possible due to real good structures,

really good work of management and team and really good team spirit. Tell us about the manager then. Yeah, the manager was Neil's Olobuck. So he was the architect of everything. He built up the whole structure, took players no one know before, making them to real, really, really good players.

So for example, we have Muayme, Damala, than Aslani or Abdullah Nalip, we all lost then to Bundesliga clubs. And nevertheless, they all did the same as before. Everyone worked for a team. And also the head coach, Horstaffin, left to Bremen at the beginning of the season. And nevertheless, that also Sen Niels Olobock himself went to Dortmund in some month ago. The team was still fighting, still bringing the best on the field. And I think at the end, it's well deserved to get promoted to the first league. Do you expect now maybe to keep your best

players? And more importantly, how do you see next season? Is there a case of it would be a miracle to stay up? Do you think that maybe the team can actually manage to have a second season in the Bundesliga and try to establish itself in the tough light, which is obviously very difficult. And do you feel like it's a dream, so there's no pressure, you're going to enjoy playing Bayern even if you lose 5-0 or Dortmund, or you want a bit of that pressure and going for it? I think every game in Bundesliga is an add-on for everyone, for the spectators, the fans, the team. And it's like a cup game. I compared like a cup game.

So we are the small ones, they are the big ones. But this is part of the story of football. This is why we love this sport, because it's possible to compete against Borussia, Dortmund or Bayern Munich. And imagine, for example, the changing rooms in Erasmberg are all shipping containers. This is what we want. Yeah, and we are just building the stadium. We just have, at the moment,

10,000 spectators. After the rebuilding now in one year, it's 15,000. But this is something Borussia Dortmund or by the Minchin have to handle because you know West Fan stadium or you know the Alliance Arena and it's a change. And this is our chance, in my opinion, to fight against them, to show them how hard football can be and to play with the possibilities we have as a small club. I feel like that begs the question then, Lars. Aside from the shipping containers,

what aspect of traveling to Elfsburg, as in the stadium, at the moment, is going to be the most alien and difficult for teams like Bayern Munich? Yeah, the first part of being difficult is that we don't have a train station. But we have an exit on the highway. That's a big advantage. but to be honest, everyone is always laughing about how we do it. And I'm really going to football stadium since 30, 40 years. And it's quite, quite fantastic handled.

So with park and ride, we have buses. So you don't have so many spectators that it's going really, really easy to the stadium and back. So sometimes if I go on a way game in a big, stadium, for example, two weeks ago in Dizzledorf. We had nearly one hour, one and a half hour, to leave the parking spot. In this time from Elversburg, I'm at home and sit in my kitchen with my kids, for example. Raff, this sounds like an amazing fairy tale. Please don't spoil it.

I mean, we wouldn't be Germans if we'd find something that we don't like about a small team getting promotion. There is a sort of a purest snobbish attitude towards small clubs because there is, you know, amongst the traditionalist, a sense that they shouldn't really be in the Bundesliga that we should have, you know, the proper clubs like Kaiser's Laelten and Hertha, and there's sort of a danger that the Bundesliga is becoming too small. We had Haydnheim there, now we have Elvis back. Not elves, they're not elves, crossy.

I'm trying here, man. I think you're channeling Lorded Rings. Elvis Berg Literally can't hear the difference But go on And because we don't have a history Of smaller clubs Sort of going through the leagues

With the help of a local businessman Who pumps money into it And the few times it happened It happened very inorganically There is almost a sense That this is not a fairytale But actually just kind of modern football The way we don't like it

you know, like a guy just giving money and through the money they're going up. But we have to explain something, especially in the British context. I mean, the money that's been invested by Frank Holzer, who's the, you know, the senior person there, a former football player who has been supporting the club for three decades, is minuscule in comparison to what we're thinking about when we think of Hoffenheim or Leipzig or, you know, any British equivalent. I mean, I looked at their numbers. in the last five years, which cover their ascent from the fourth league all the way to Bundesliga,

they have spent $4.7 million on transfers, 4.7 million euros. And in that terms, they've spent minus seven, so they've made more money than they spent in those five years. So this is still, I think, a fairy tale, but maybe for Germans, the inventors of modern fairy tales, not quite as romantic enough. Lars, what are you most looking forward to about seeing your team in the Bundesliga then? I'm really looking forward, to be honest, to each single game.

Because like I mentioned, it's Ned on. And I think it's really fantastic what our trainer, Vincent Wagner, said on the press conference as we were promoted. He said, luckily, in the season 27, 28, we are in second league. So next year, we say it's the second league.

And that's really, really the true. And that's a mindset in Elvis back. And that's what us brings forward. That's what us brought to the point we are now. Because if you told someone three years ago, where we are now, it would be crazy. They want to say, say it's unbelievable and it's unbelievable. Lars, thank you so much for joining us.

I'm sure we'll speak again. when you sort of demolish Raff's Bayern Munich 5-0. And they have a lock-in in the shipping container. I look forward to that. Thanks, Lars. Great stuff. That's Lars Jerkel from the Elv Friends Blieson fans group. Raf, what's the perfect German football club then?

Because you don't like these little stories. You don't like the clubs with the big money. Like, what do you want? I mean, it's a really good question. even Bayern Munich fans have had a banner for 20 years saying we are against modern football so I don't know I think it's it's an adherence to

some bygone golden era that of course never really never really existed but it's interesting cross seekers I mean they have this debate in Italy as well there are lots of Italian raffes Raphaelais who are making the same point that when a Benevento gets promoted or Frosinona gets promoted instead of a Santoria, for example. You have people like Napoli's owner, Arela de Laurentis, sort of pulling his hair out,

saying for the overall TV product, if we are to get sort of international audiences in, they don't want that romantic, plucky little story. They want to see the bigger clubs in as many big clubs as possible. in the competition, which makes it all the more enjoyable when one of those teams knocks Napoli out of the Copa Italia, which is what happened last year. Well, this is a perfect link because we're going to finish with the Champions League race

in Seriair ahead of the final day. Two points separate third from sixth. Obviously, it's third and fourth that get in in Italy this season. So Milan are third on 70. Roma also have 70. Como 68, Juventus, 68. and even though Milan are in the best position, they also have the worst goal difference.

Is it head-to-head first in Serriato, James, it is, isn't it? Yes, I thought so. Visarly it is crossy, yes. So, I mean, actually, the first question I'll ask you then because it links into what we're talking about is Como. So how are Como being viewed within that context? Are they a plucky, anything? Are they not?

Would your average neutral Italian football fan think, oh, great, if they get in the Champions League or not? People think they're a great story in Italy because of what they stand for. They've got a young coach in Cess Fabragas, who we've spoken about many times on this show, whose ideas are seen as very modern, vanguard, and should be followed by other people in the league,

rather than playing sort of retrograde 352, low block, boring football. So in that sense, Coma are being championed. They are not like, the team that has just come up into the Bundesliga, because they have spent considerably more than the four million. Raffa mentioned they have had the highest net spend in the last couple of years since they got back into the top flight.

But they've spent that well. Cesska's implemented it very well. And their game this weekend against Cremonezé, I mean, they could relegate Jamie Vardy's Cremonezé. And then they've got to hope that results go their way elsewhere because, you know, whilst Roma have never been in the Champions League under the Freakin Group, the Freaking Group who also own Everton, and they've spent an awful lot of money on Roma, the big focus over the last week of 10 days has really been on Milan and

Juventus, you know, who wants the Crisis Club, that and more. And that has been Milan last week, Crossy, because it was very much, there was a big protest. They wanted the chief executive of Milan out. They wanted the sporting director out as well. But then Milan beat Genoa at the weekend. And the big surprise was that Juventus lost at home to Fyrentina, Fyna who have been in relegation trouble for most of this season, but are now safe, didn't really have anything to play for. They rock up. A couple of ex-Eventus players scored. And now this has thrown Juventus's entire structure into doubt, which is their chief executive. Damien Komoli, or Damien Komoli, as people in the UK know him.

And the structure that he's spent the last year putting in place, which has been a new sporting director, new technical director, and the coach, Luchana Spoletti, who they took the option to extend his contract a couple of weeks ago. But now it feels like everything is throwing to doubt because Juventus might not qualify for the Champions League for the first time in 15 years. And who would lose the most?

Who would lose the most? Great question, Jules. Perfect question. You know, where is the crisis that? If Milan don't make it to the Champions League, is that really bad? What about you? If Roma don't make it when they are in that position,

is it okay because it's Gasparini's first season, for example, and things like that? Or who has the most to lose? So you're absolutely right, Jules, and what you're alluding to with Roma and Gasparini in that I think the ownership there whilst they have been gasping to qualify for Champions

League over the last seven or eight years because all the money you think that they spent on Josam Rina and then on hiring Josim Rina, all the money they spent on Danny Degrozi. They need it, but they've kind of, it's almost normalized not being in the Champions League. So there would be ahead of schedule under Gasparini if they got there. Milan have shown by failing to qualify last year that they can still navigate the transfer market in such a way that they can, I wouldn't say, be non-top-firmary. for proof, but they've shown that they can find a way to balance the books without it.

Juventus is the one that they have a shareholder who keeps plunging lots of money in, you know, the Angelli family, but after six years now since they won their last title, and remember, Juventus won the league nine years in a row, for them to miss out on the Champions League and have to press a reset button again, I think that would be, that would be inconvenient to say the least for their owner, John Elkamp. I have to say congratulations to you, James, because whilst the rest of us have been beautifully lit throughout this show, it's just got darker and darker behind you.

Now you effectively look like a deleted scene from the Blair Witch Project at this point. But you've done well with it. What a great Euroleagues, everybody. Big thank you to Raffa Honikstein, the Athletics, James Holencastle, and ESPN's Julianne LaRont. The final Euroleagues of this club football season is next Thursday and it will be live from Budapest

ahead of the Champions League final which is of course live on 5 Live on Saturday, Arsenal versus Paris Saint-Germann. So we'll be here on 5 Live from 7pm with that and that'll be the next edition of the Euroleagues. Next up on the Football Daily will be the commentator's view.

and analysis from across the women's game. Dame Serena Vigman, welcome to the book. Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is? And it's right! You want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the Wall Cup.

It's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app.