Football Daily - Euro Leagues: Xabi's Leverkusen Farewell, & Carlo's off to Rio

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Steve Crossman, Raphael Honigstein, Julien Laurens and James Horncastle are back with the latest episode of Euro Leagues.The guys reflect on Xabi Alonso's time at Bayer Leverkusen, and what he'll be thinking about before returning to Los Blancos. Xabi's arrival means Carlo Ancelotti's off to the Brazil national team. Could we see a return to the fold for Neymar? South American football expert Tim Vickery joins the pod with all the latest.Bologna win their first trophy in over 50 years, beating AC Milan in the Coppa Italia final, and Sampdoria are relegated to Serie C for the first time in the club's history.Timecodes: 00:40 Looking back at Xabi Alonso at Leverkusen, & what will life be like back in Madrid? 16:38 Carlo Ancelotti's off to Brazil 29:20 Bologna win Coppa Italia 36:35 Sampdoria relegated to Serie C for the first timeBBC Sounds / 5 Live / Radio 5 Sports Extra weekend commentaries: Sat 1630 Men's FA Cup Final: Crystal Palace vs Manchester City (5 Live) Sun 1330 Women's FA Cup Final: Chelsea vs Manchester United (Sports Extra 3) Sun 1415 Premier League: West Ham vs Nottingham Forest (5 Live) Sun 1500 Premier League: Brentford vs Fulham (Sports Extra 2) Sun 1630 Premier League: Arsenal vs Newcastle (5 Live)

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. On the Football Daily Podcast, the EuroLeagues with Steve Crossman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the EuroLeagues where we care about one thing and one thing only. Europe. Europe. Europe. Europe. Europe. Europe. Good evening, Rafael Honigstein, Julian Laron and James Horncastle. Hello, boys. Good evening. Good evening. I just hope everybody listening understands that Unai Emery reference from this week.

Let's start today's pod in Germany then. Xabi Alonso's final game in charge of Leverkusen is this weekend. He said his farewells. Raf, a legend, quite simply put, with what he's done there. Yeah, and all of it in the space of two and a half seasons. But those two and a half seasons brought Leverkusen to their best ever period in history with a double. They were so often the bridesmaids, we know about the

nicknames and all the laughter and the schadenfreude that they've seemed to attract over the years, but Alonso's changed everything because not only did he deliver those trophies, but he also changed what Leverkusen stand for, certainly his team stood for, which was resilience, the ability to win games, the ability to go for an entire Bundesliga season unbeaten. And that's why this slightly underwhelming season, where they only in inverted commas finished second and missed out on a big chance to win the DFB Cup, the German Cup where they got knocked out by third division Arminia Bielefeld, is not really seen, I think, as too much of a

setback for him. He walks into the Real Madrid job regardless because everyone has seen just what an impact he had on his team. I think people knew for a long time that this guy has superstar coach written all over him and that's why he's going to go where he's going. This is kind of a question for all of you, but obviously Raf, you're closest to it. I wonder whether, this might be quite a naive question, I don't know, is what he has done with Bayer Leverkusen something which can elevate others to believe that Bayern winning Bundesliga

after Bundesliga after Bundesliga doesn't have to be a foregone conclusion. I think it'll help others believe, but can they believe that they can do what Leverkusen did, which is take 90 points and go through the entire season unbeaten and then find the Bayern team that is historically poor with Thomas Tuchel and reach 72 points. All these things had to come together. I think it's going to be very difficult to replicate, but not impossible. I mean, Leverkusen have done it. Dortmund should have done it the season before, as we all remember,

where they choked at the last moment and only needed one win against Mainz and really should have done it. So it's not impossible, but you feel that the stability that they have now by and with company It's going to be very very difficult You just need a lot of planet to align the right time for something like that to happen again really and and To find a right coach and Chabu Alonso with new ideas that we can can take It a team to another level to probably have the right players in your recruitment That will also step up and carry your team.

A bit of luck like they had remember last season, all those wins really, really late, 97th minute, 98th minute and all of that. And again, that doesn't happen all the time. Look at this season, they didn't have the kind of finale of games that they used to the season before. So it's a lot of things that of course can happen, but you still need all of those things to happen at the same time to be able to be a team like Bayern.

Yeah, I mean, just to bring this to Italy, for example, you had Juventus on a similar winning streak to what Bayern were going through. They won nine consecutive league titles. And then, be it COVID, be it the cost of having Cristiano, and the decisions that then led the club to make, which sent Juventus into a spiral. City A then had four different champions in four years.

But that was really because the buy-in figure in that league all of a sudden went into a crisis that it's still trying to pull itself out of. You just never see that with buy- Bayern, because it was commercial acumen, how well the club is run. And you do have to hope that Bayern have an off season, be perfect yourself, and then you have to have the gumption to take the opportunity when it presents itself. I think if you're, for example,

a Tottenham fan under Pochettino and you see Leicester winning the league when you maybe could have won the league, that is galling. I always look at Arsenal this season. After finishing runners up twice, the year in which City don't win it, you don't win it either.

So you still have to take that opportunity when it arises. And I think that's why, you know, I think Chabu Alonso, as Rafa said at the top of this segment, it's only two and a half years, but departs a legend. Rafa, I like gumption as an attribute for a great manager. We don't really talk about that, but that is a big part of what he did there, isn't it? Sorry, what's gumption? This is generally, and I'm sure there's some listeners. No, no.

Oh, baldness. Okay. Yeah, like being bald, gumption. Yeah. Gumption. Yeah, not the Pep Guardiola type of baldness. Yes. B-O-L-D. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. Because Chabuilonses has beautiful hair.

Oh, yeah. Fabulous. Very, very beautiful hair. I think it's impressive because while Leverkusen were sort of in a false position when he took over, he did take them over when they're 15th and they were struggling. And in his first season, he played five at the back, he played quite reactive at counterattacking football and you just did what had to be done to stabilise the team. And then in the second season, he mixed it up again and now the third season was yet another evolution, perhaps slightly less successful one than the one before because the added

pressure of playing in the Champions League and maybe Graničaka being one year older and wanted to play as perhaps not being quite the same level individually, that all meant that they couldn't quite achieve the same results. But I think in those two and a half years, you saw so much from him in terms of his adaptability, the kind of humility almost that he came into the, you know, he didn't come to the job thinking I have one way of playing and we're going to play it and I know everything. You could see that he was constantly adapting and learning on the job. Having had the kind of experience in football education that only a world-class player with his background in clubs and coaching with Ancelotti and Guardiola and Rafa Benitez and all these coaches.

I think to have all that and to have won everything as a player gave him that extra bit that carried him also through those difficult spells. And again, I think he's going to be an absolute superstar. Real Madrid is going to be a really tough job because we know that winning is not enough. And even if you win one year, the next year, they will, they will remember. Is he ready for Real Madrid? And I'm not saying ready for you. Of course he was going to, he's going to take the job. Although I think he's that good that the job at Real Madrid would have come, come back at another point point maybe in his career.

It's a team that is not working right now and he will have investment and recruitment in Hoesson and maybe Carreras, the left back of Benfica. So he will get new players but we still need to find a balance in this Real Madrid team, something to get the best out of Bellingham and Vinicius and Mbappe with something that Carlo struggled to do this season. So is he ready really for that step up now, do you think? Or it would just be ready at any time anyway? We'll have to find out. I mean, I have no qualms or no doubt that he will walk in this restroom room and command tremendous respect for what he's done, for the kind of the presence and the charisma

that he has. Also don't forget he is still a fantastic footballer. He still trains very actively and that helps you to make your point across. You know, he can't just say do this, do that. He just pings these balls 60 meters and I've seen him train and it's quite amazing. So I think all these things will help him. But I agree with Jules or I understand what Jules is asking this question, because Real Madrid, even with new players coming in,

seems like a much more sort of difficult dressing room and harder puzzle to solve than maybe a couple of years ago where you had that stability of the big players who just run the show and you knew that whatever happened, the likes of Modric and Kroos, they keep you in the game and then somehow you find a way of winning. That Madrid has lost that aura a little bit and they're looking for for Xabi to bring that back.

I think as impressive as Xabi Alonso has been in the Bundesliga over the last few years, we haven't really seen that maybe translate in Europe. Rafa and I were, for example, we were at the quarterfinals of the Europa League a couple of years ago when he kind of got done by Jose Mourinho's Roma. And then last year, okay, they reached the Europa League final. Which is quite good, James. Yeah. But you lose 3-0 to Atalanta.

Okay. Which is quite good, James. Yeah, but you lose 3-0 to Atalanta, which at that stage, Atalanta had lost Coppa Italia final, Coppa Italia final, Coppa Italia final. They'd lost one of those finals just a few days before that Europa League final. I think most people, as was the case last week when people were talking about Barcelona, most people tipped the non-Italian team that night. And so I just wonder if he needs,

does he have the experience, the kind of credibility in the European competitions or given Leverkusen's past in those competitions, is that a little bit too harsh given if you're going undefeated in the Bundesliga, you know, that's going to take a toll as well. You can't maybe expect a team with their resources to be competitive across every front. I think you make a perfectly fair point, especially considering that he was beaten 5-0 over on aggregate by Vincent Kompany, who of course had zero pedigree in European football as a coach. And at least on those two occasions, Bayern really for the first time in all those Xabi Alonso games where they had never beaten, various coaches had never beaten Xabi Alonso,

Nagelsmann, Tuchel didn't make it. Finally they came good. But to qualify that a little bit, I think the fact that Barcelona are about to win the league Maybe puts the pressure Slightly less on the Champions League. I think getting the trophy back and knocking Barcelona off the pedestal domestically will be such a big target that maybe they will forgive him if They don't win the Champions League unlike other coaches. And it is his first year. So I think as long as he wins La Liga, I think he'll be safe. But that's not going to be that easy when especially considering all the flaws of Real Madrid we've talked about.

I think there is, Gilles, a bit of a perfect storm question here in that as we've been discussing, you know, there's a perfect storm about Bayer Leverkusen's title in the Bundesliga. From the way you're all describing Real Madrid situation, there's almost a bit of a perfect storm that he's walking into there in the if as Real Madrid manager, there is a possibility of a first season where the Champions League isn't the only thing you're going to be judged on because of what's happened this season in La Liga. That could actually really play into his hands. Yeah, it could, although he's coming at a time, like we said,

where the balance between the big two, especially in Spain, looks really not in his favour because Barcelona have maybe the best player in the world already or not far from it, and he's only 17 and he's going to be there for a very long time and he's going to troll you every time he beats you as we've seen this season and you've just lost four times out of four against him and his team. They are not perfect Barcelona but they are clearly better than what Real Madrid are right now so Xabi Alonso will not just only have to be to make this Real Madrid team better

and better structured and with more cohesion making work Vinicius and Mbappe together. Bellingham was the best role for Bellingham. There's a lot of question marks and things to sort out, as we were saying earlier, and the way Rafa put it, in all the pieces of this jigsaw around Madrid. But not only that, but you will also have to compete with a team very much on the up with La Minyamal already there and on the way up even more. And that's also, I think, going to be a challenge. So there's that, there's the Champions League pedigree, of course. There's regaining La Liga, of course, as well.

It's a big season and that's the only thing I have, is that he could have waited another three, four, five years maybe, and that job would have been on the table back again. There's no doubt, because he's so young enough. If you're Carlo and you're in your 70s, you don't want to say no, it's completely understandable, because it's not going to be back again. For Xabi Alonso, in five years time, maybe Ramon Jouel would have been in a much better place. Lamin Yamalm have left by the time Barcelona

and maybe the context would have been a bit better. But I think it's very brave for him to take it now because again, I think he would have had another opportunity later in his career. Raph, can we just touch on what he's leaving behind? Because it seems like a couple of Leverkusen's players are going to go at least, at least. So how attractive a job actually is the Bayer Leverkusen job right now? It's going to be very difficult. First of all, to follow up Xabi Alonso, the most successful coach in history, Leverkusen. And secondly, for the reason you just mentioned, this is

not going to be the same Leverkusen team. Florian Wirtz, very, very likely to leave. It's not done yet. We still don't know if he's going to Bayern or maybe to City or maybe even to Liverpool. But I would say odds on he's leaving. Jérémie Frimpong has a really close, heavily linked with Liverpool. I think it was a miracle that Leverkusen kept them in the first place last season. They kept the whole team, which when the team like Leverkusen wins the league, suddenly, usually you think they won't be able to keep their big players. They managed to do that, but they're paying the price this summer. Frimpong very likely to be off.

Patrick Schick possibly off. Incapier has a lot of people that like him. And of course, Jonathan Tarr has run down his contract and will join Bayern. So it's going to be a difficult proposition. And I'm not surprised that Cesc Fabregas, who was really top of the list for Leverkusen, maybe footballing reasons has said, no, I'm more happy at Como. If maybe there were also some kind of geographic reasons at play, I mean, Leverkusen, Como, one is very, that's a tough sell.

One is very beautiful and the other is Komo. That was always going to be, I think, a tough sell. But no, it's going to be super interesting. And I think Erik Ten Haag might be the coach who will come in. Really? It's going to be very, very difficult, I think, for him to rebuild this team and to get the same kind of incredible performances that we saw from Leverkusen under Xabi Alonso.

I mean that is remarkable. How do you think Leverkusen fans would take that? I think they would trust the club. The club has a good reputation when it comes to finding the right coaches, finding the right players. Simon Rolfes, the sporting director, has been doing an excellent job. So I think they would trust the club's judgment. I don't know how many of them would have followed Eric Tenhark at Man United that closely to really have that much of opinion. I think

they would probably think more about the fact that, you know, Bayern still rate him very highly from his time there with the amateur side. Mathias Sammer rates him really highly. And they would probably think this club knows what he's doing and give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think we would see people trying to burn down the training ground because Eric Tenhark is coming. All right. Let's talk about, because there's so many different angles to Xabi Alonso and Real Madrid,

let's talk about the move which I think is really raising eyebrow. Uh that is Carlo Ancelotti becoming the Brazil head coach. It was called by the Brazilian Federation the coming together of two icons. So let's bring a third into the mix our South American football expert Tim Vickery is with us. Hey Tim. I thought you were going to bring back Roger Moore there for the third icon and just raise the eyebrow, but there you go, you're stuck with me. He'll fit in very nicely in Rio, won't he Tim? I think he will. Yes, I think he will. The reaction has been mixed.

I think there's considerable relief that they've finally got this one over the line. They've been chasing him for a long time. And even when the Brazilian FA announced it on Monday, there were still people who were saying, is he? Is he? Is he? Finally, when Ancelotti went on the record on Tuesday, we knew that it was happening. The traditionalists don't like it very much. They'll point to the fact that Brazil have won five World Cups always with Brazilian coaches. What do we need this foreigner coming over here? But I think the people least concerned by all of this are the players themselves, the vast majority of whom play for European clubs with coaches from all different nationalities. And some of the key players do play or have

played for Carlo Encelotti. I think we'll thoroughly welcome the idea of teaming up with him once more now with the national team. Tim, isn't it an easy answer though to the kind of doubters who say, oh we've won five World Cups. Yeah, and the last was in 2002, man. Indeed, yes. 24 years, which is next year, which is a long, long time. And every campaign since then has ended when they've come up against a European team in the knockout stages. So they see Ancelotti as the man

to get them over that hurdle. And he knows how success will be judged. If he wins the World Cup next year, he will be judged a success. If he doesn't win the World Cup next year, he will be judged a failure. No pressure there then. Yeah, I mean, my take on this is what a remarkable cultural moment this is for Italian football,

because I don't want to dwell on what's happened to Ajax too much over the last week, but you have an Italian coach in charge of Ajax. You now have an Italian coach in charge of Brazil. You know, these in that kind of football clash of civilizations were supposed to be kind of diametrically opposed really and you know those old stereotypes die hard about Cattinaccio, Italian style from the from the 1960s which was really kind of brought by an Argentine Moroccan, Helenio Herrera, Inter. But I think the great thing about Italy when it comes to exports is it exports its coaches and rather than any specific style, it's about adapting to circumstance. And Tim alluded to how the players have received Carlo Ancelotti.

What I'm interested in, Tim, is what about Neymar? Like, what's the future hold for Neymar in this national team with Carlo Ancelotti? Well, at the moment, Neymar exists as a hypothetical, and he hasn't played for so long, and he's tried to come back with Santos but he keeps breaking down with injuries so he hasn't really played with any sequence of games since October of 23. So at the moment we're dealing with a hypothetical. We understand that there's two players

who specifically were sounded out by Ancelotti before taking the job. One was Kazimiro, who's been out of the frame for a while, and I would imagine now would come straight back. Central midfield has been the real problem area, both protecting the defence and playing out from the back, and I think Kazimiro will be the big winner of this process. I think he will be back with responsibility. The other that we understand he's been in touch with is Neymar. I think Ancelotti, because the previous coach, Dorival Jr. tried to rush Neymar back when there was absolutely no chance of him being anywhere near fitness and he broke down.

I imagine that Ancelotti will want to see some evidence of Neymar's fitness on the field, but I would imagine there is a role for him if he can prove some kind of match fitness, which will be in a little bit of a deeper role. Brazil have lots and lots of dazzling pace up front, with Vinny and Javier and Savio and others. Neymar has been seen in the national team on the previous coach, the one who took him to the last two World Cups, Cicci, very much a worshipper of Ancelotti.

He always referred to Neymar as both bow and arrow. I think at this stage in his career, Brazil have got lots of other arrows and Neymar could be the bow. He could be the one operating a little bit from deeper, passing, splitting the defense with passes for the likes of Vini. So I would imagine that that will be in Ancelotti's thoughts. But first, Neymar has to get fit. Tim, I have two questions. One is how much pressure was there on Ancelotti living in Rio? Because I read about him having a jet, private jet at his disposal and an armed limousine with a driver at any given time in enabling him to live there on a full-time basis.

And secondly, where does exactly the clamor come from for a foreign coach? Yes, it's one thing not to win for 20 odd years, but does that necessarily mean we have to get a foreign coach in? Isn't there any coaching talent in Brazil, such a big footballing nation that would have had a better perhaps standing or view to taking over? There is a crisis in Brazilian coaching. And you can see here a clear contrast with Argentina. Argentina, so many of the big high profile players

with top level experience, as soon as they stop, they want to be coaches. And even Carlos Tevez. Now you imagine Carlos Tevez life post football being extended golfing leave. No, he's thrown himself into into two coaching jobs and he's done it very very seriously. In Brazil we haven't seen anything similar from former players with top-class experience. There's an exception now, Felipe Luiz, the one-time Athletic of Madrid, Chelsea left back who's

made a promising start to a coaching career and And there could be more on the way. The conditions in which Brazilian football are played. There are too many games. There's no time to train. There is no patience. Three consecutive defeats and you're out. And the previous coach, Dorival Junior, was really the last card for those who were saying we have to have a Brazilian

coach because really at the moment there isn't anyone else. Hence the fact that this drawbridge has fallen and Brazil have gone foreign. The question of living in Rio, as I understand it, yes, it has been an issue. When Ancelotti was first lined up for the job and we thought he was coming late 23, early 24 to take charge of the Copa America in 24. He was due to live in Rio. As I understand it, in the more recent negotiations, he came up with the idea of maybe doing the job from Europe, just like Lionel Scoloni, Argentina's coach who lives in Spain. But from a political point of view, that would be a tough, tough sell, a really tough sell.

From a political point of view, I think he has to base himself here in Brazil some of the time, and he has to show willing to engage with Brazilian club football because there is always a call for more domestically-based players to appear in the international team. So it looks as if they've done some kind of deal on the terms that you mentioned there,

where he's got a private jet at his disposal to go back to Europe when he wants. But I think from a political point of view, he has to be here some of the time. And obviously, anyone who's worked for so long under Florentino Perez knows very, very well the political sides of a job. I've just been talking to Chris Brady, who wrote that book with Ancelotti on Quiet Leadership. And he said one thing that he always does,

not just with football, but in any managerial position, he asks people to define their role. What is it that you do? What do you do? And he said the question that the answer that he got back from Ancelotti on what do you do? And Ancelotti replied, I make my president happy. And in order to make the president of Brazil's FA happy, I think he has to spend some time in Rio and he has to show willing to engage with domestic Brazilian football. What was interesting as well is that is this is international football good for Carlo? Because I think you could you could see it in a way of on paper and James mentioned the

adaptability that he has the pragmatism is a is a great man management guy, maybe the best, maybe the best ever. But then for Carlo to really be at his best and in that man management side, how close he is with the players, he also needs to see them every day. And that's why he's very good at. But international football, you don't see them every day. You have them 10 days for September, October, November, then nothing until March, then a little bit, and then nothing until June.

And after that, it's a competition. Or then you go back to the same circle again, a cycle again. And that's why I'm not sure. Because on one hand, you can say, yeah, international football will be great for Carlo. He's made for it. But on the other hand, I still think that he needs that training every day

being there on the pitch with the players, which he is not gonna have at all now. Yeah, and remember that early in his coaching career when he was still an assistant to Origo Saki, he was part of the Italy set up during the 1994 World Cup, I think the 96 euros as well. So he has seen international football from the perspective of a player and he was a very, very good midfielder. I always thought that Italy's chances of winning the World Cup in 1990 took a serious hit when he was injured in the course of the competition. So he's seen that as a player and he's seen it from the coaching side as assistant to

Arigosaki. Yes, there will be an adjustment needed there, but the one thing that I think he instantly has is credibility in the dressing room. And some of the previous Brazilian coaches, certainly the last couple and certainly the last one, I don't think they had that. And this is a problem of the players playing top level football in Europe coming back to Brazil. And I of the players playing top level football in Europe coming back to Brazil. And I was aware that Dorival Junior was nearly P45 time before that humiliation 4-1 against Argentina. The previous game a few days earlier, they beat Colombia 2-1. Vini scored a wonderful goal in stoppage time to win in that game. And coming off the field, Bruno Guimarães, who was interviewed by a mate of mine,

and he criticised the coach, he criticised Dorival for the lack of work that they were doing on playing the ball out of defence. So I think Dorival Jr. had a credibility problem with some of the players in the dressing room. Carlo Ancelotti, even if he only sees them now and again for a few days at a time, has absolutely no problem of credibility. Tim, lovely to have you with us. Thank you very much for coming on. It's my pleasure. Thank you. The Commentator's View on the Football Daily. I'm Alistair Bruce-Born.

I'm John Murray. Hello, me and Dennis. And Fridays on the Football Daily means one thing. The Commentator's View episode. And I'm Ian Dennis. And Friday's On The Football Daily means one thing. The Commentators View episode. You use the word scenes. If I did use words like that. Join us every Friday as we look ahead to the weekend's football action with a few untold stories along the way. The Commentators View.

Only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily podcast, the EuroLeagues with Steve Crossman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Julian Laron, James Holcastle, Rafa Honigstein all with us on the EuroLeagues. Let's talk Coppa Italia. James, historic night for Bologna. Winners for the first time since 1974. Yeah, and rightful winners as well. It felt like it had been coming, although a lot of the players speaking to them before this game said no one expected

them to be there. Because remember this time last year, Bologna finished fifth, qualified for the Champions League because Serie A had earned an extra spot in the Champions League by topping the UEFA coefficient. And then their manager was headhunted by Juventus, Thiago Mota. Joshua Xerxay went to Man United. Calafuri went to Arsenal. And their captain, Lewis Ferguson, suffered an ACL injury. And yeah, they started the season quite slowly. They weren't losing games but they were drawing too many games and then really they've assimilated everything that their

new coach Vincenzo Italiano wanted and you just see how closely knit this team is together. And so for them to win this trophy for the first time since 1974 is a remarkable story, in part for their Italian-Canadian owner, Joey Saputo as well, because Saputo's been, he's the longest standing foreign owner, if you want to call him foreign, he does speak Italian, he's got Italian passport. But he bought the club when they were in the second division. For a long time, fans wondered what the purpose of Bologna were, because they were always mid-table.

They didn't seem to have the ambition to go further. And then really since the appointment of Sinisimo Hjelovic, who kind of changed the culture within the dressing room, and then some smart moves made by Atalanta's former head of recruitment, Giovanni Sartori. They've been on this constant rise and yeah, it was delightful to see them raise that golden trophy last night. Do you know, Raf, it's interesting as well because this is almost the situation we were

talking about with Leverkusen, kind of how attractive a job is it because you've got to follow Xabi Alonso. Vincenzo Italiano had to follow Thiago Motta, who got Bologna into the Champions League for the first time in 60 years. So if you've got, I'm going to say it again, the gumption to do it, the rewards are there. Yeah, you need to have the confidence in yourself. I mean, in my experience, coaches at this level, they always feel I am the right guy, I can do the job. If you have those doubts, then you probably don't end up at that level in the first place.

So it doesn't surprise me that you always have somebody ready to step in and become the success of Jürgen Klopp, for example, and see what happened there. So whatever it looks like from the outside, I think coaches at this level will tend to back themselves. But it is still an amazing achievement, I think coaches at this level will tend to back themselves. But it is still an amazing achievement and it still I think needed a setup where they ran into a so-called bigger side

but a bigger side that is not at their best. And I think that is the flip side to that story. You need, especially in cup competitions, if you are not one of the favorites, if you're not one of the favorites, if you're not one of the big teams, you need to A, get a little bit lucky with a draw, and then B, when there's no more luck involved, because at some point you will meet a bigger team.

Then you need to find a bigger team that is perhaps historically at a bit of a low, and not at the same kind of trajectory that you have, where you're going up and they're going down and they pass you on the way down and I think I mean James is better place to than me to talk about this but I think that was very much part of the story here. Yeah Milan who on the one hand went into this game knowing that they could have won a second trophy for the season and yet when you speak to players I mean I interviewed Tijani Reinders last week I said would winning the Coppa Italia save your season and he

was like no because you don't judge AC Milan by winning Coppa Italia or Super Coppa you judge AC Milan by winning the league title or winning the Champions League and we're eighth in the league and we got knocked out by Fire Nord in the playoff stage of the Champions League. So it hasn't been a good season. There had been some sort of mini revival over the last few weeks. They'd won four games in a row, Milan, and people thought that Conte Saao had found the system.

He basically tweaked things, started playing three, four, three. And even in the cup, they'd knocked out Roma and they'd knocked out Inter as well. So given that. And even in the cup, you know, they'd knocked out Roma and they'd knocked out Inter as well. So, you know, given that on Friday night in the league, they'd beaten Bologna. There was this sense that, ah, okay, you know, Milan will be okay. But no, I think the contrast here is,

it's kind of what we were talking about earlier, which is about kind of culture and spirit within a club, that intangible, elusive thing that is really difficult to create. Bologna have that, Milan don't. You know, all of Bologna's owner, the owner's son was there, Marco Di Vio, sort of vice president was there, sporting director.

With Milan, owner not there, Paolo Maldini no longer at the club. You know, 48 hours before the game game you've got Zvonimir Boban who used to be an executive, part of one of the legendary Milan sides in the 90s, basically saying this club has no identity, no spirit. And you could see it on the pitch, a sole full team beat a sole less one. We talked earlier about Xavi Alonso and Seth Fabregas who in a way got lucky in their coaching career because they got really good jobs quite early in their career right before

in Tagliano he started in in Serie D right he started in the fourth division and then climbed up with the team that he got promoted but then on his own it's a pretty special career path as well right especially when you compare to people like Chaby Alonso and Seth Fabregas. Yeah I mean promoted but then on his own. It's a pretty special career path as well, right? Especially when you compare it to people like Xabi Alonso and Sash Fabregas. Yeah, I mean, in the olden days, you would say this guy has done everything that you would ask a manager to do in order to get a big job. In fact, it was a surprise that his next job after Fiorentina was Bologna and not AC Milan because as you mentioned, he's worked at every level. In the fourth tier, first season, gets his team into the playoffs.

They win the playoffs but because of the financial difficulties at the club, the club can't go up. He then trades up, gets a job in the third division and takes that third division team up in his first season. He then gets a job in the second division and takes Spezia up for the first time in their history and keeps them up. He then gets the Fiorentina job, gets them back into Europe after five years and reaches a Coppa Italia final, which they lost to Inter, and reaches back-to-back Conference League finals, which they lost. So last night again was really him showing that

he keeps moving forward and that the knock on him after the time at Fiorentina which is you know very quick to forget all of this progress was that this guy's a loser in finals and no he won a trophy and he absolutely deserves to get a big job. If Milan do not Decide to retain concesal which looks very very unlikely at this moment. They should absolutely be looking at Vincenzo Italiano Let's finish with some Dorias relegation So for those that don't know they've been relegated to seriachi for the first time in their 78 year history I mean, I just want to say the names, James,

because we can, it's the club of Mancini and Vialli and Lombardo, Paliuca, Hullit, Plait, Caliarella. How's this happened? Well, mismanagement. And one of those seasons where, I mean, we're talking about how with a club like Leverkusen to win the Bundesliga, everything has to go right. I think for Samp to be relegated to the third division, everything has to go wrong.

Because this is a team that had the second highest wage bill in Serie B this season, behind Sassuolo, who got promoted. They signed a striker who always gets his teams promoted, Massimo Coda, to the point, Massimo Coda, to the point where Massimo Coda never plays in Serie A because teams in Serie B pay him more money because they know he will get them up. And even with Massimo Coda in the team, they didn't go up. They had four different coaches.

Andrea Piero started the season and then he was gone after three or four games. And that was seen as a very rash decision from the owners. In the background there is Radrizzani who used to be at Leeds, so some Leeds fans I think might not be surprised of the way things have gone at Samp. So they had four coaches and what do you need for a stable team? There's an Italian sporting director who says that the two positions you can't mess up are the striker and they thought they got that right and the goalkeeper which they got wrong because have you ever heard of a time where a team in one season has gone has gone through five different

goalkeepers? Five! Okay so everyone playing in front of their own goal was just like we just don't trust the guy behind us. They obviously had one last roll of the dice in kind of April, which was like, let's get the old gang back together. So let's get Roberto Mancini to be a consultant sporting director, but he wasn't involved in the club.

He was like, yeah, fake news, fake news. But his former teammates, Atilio Lombardo and Alberigo Evani, who worked with him on the national team, they took, fake news. But his former teammates, Attilio Lombardo and Alberigo Evani, who worked with him on the national team, they took over the team. They were coaching the team. So they thought that would be enough to save them. It wasn't.

And they've gone down. So it's a very sad day for football romantics, but not a sad day if you are a Genoa fan, because Genoa have been in City of C, themselves. Genoa are the oldest club in Italian football, founded by Sir James Richardson Spencerly. And they always saw Sampas Arrivist, founded in 1946, not really representative of the club.

So I've got a few Genoa fans who have been loving it over the last few days. Absolutely loving it. I think, I think Jules, that's a good point about pulling on the heartstrings actually, because I just, you know, you think about also people, you know, people who were, who were no longer with us in recent years as well. People like Viali, like Sven-Jurin Oaks. And you think about Sinisa Mihailovic. I actually, when I think of Sonisa Mihailovich, think of goals he scored against Sampdoria because he scored that amazing hat trick of free kicks. Remember for that CEO, which was astonishing. But that is why

isn't it? It's heritage and history and lots of people grew up will have be listening to this. Perhaps grew up in the nineties with Italian football. Absolutely. The shirt, of course. I mean, James has a lovely Sampdoria shirt that he wears sometimes when we play football. The crest, it's true, you do. It's true, but I remember we worked together once with David Ginola, which was a night which was more famous because Rapha ruined his night by telling him the score of, was it the Euro basketball? And he never really forgave Rafa for that. We let him know I had a Samp shirt and he tried to buy it off me. I was like, it's not for sale. So it is, I think, arguably the best shirt in football.

It's so iconic. Yeah, definitely. Can I just use up the last sort of 10 seconds of the show to welcome back Hamburger S. Foul to Bundesliga 1? Yes, you can have 60 seconds. Thank you. Because for seven years they've been down there in Bundesliga 2. And of course a lot of people loved it. Samp-Powellie fans loved it. Werder Bremen fans loved it. But I think as a German football fan, your heart was bleeding to see Hans Foul down there.

Averaging still 60,000 every single game in Bundesliga 2. One of the most beautiful cities, one of the most storied clubs, and they finally, finally managed to come back, courtesy of a very successful, very convincing win over Ulm at the weekend. Merlin Poulsen, the young former assistant coach, was appointed halfway through the season and he's managed to take them back. I'm not sure how long they're going to be around for because they're going to have their work cut out I think next year, but it is such a big moment for German football and such welcome news. A team in a club like Hamburg needs to be in Bundesliga 1. Alright, that's it for this episode of the EuroLeague. Massive thank you to Raph, Jules

and James and thanks to you for listening. It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years, English football has been dominated by Manchester City. Eight Premier League titles, six league cups, three FA Cups, one Champions League. And they're going for it! And more than a hundred charges. Somebody turned up at the Etihad Stadium and effectively served papers. I'm Clive Myrie and this is Football on Trial, The Manchester City charges. They believe they've got irrefutable evidence. Listen on BBC Sounds.