Football Daily - How To Win The Champions League: Real Madrid

Episode Date: January 18, 2025

Real Madrid are the most successful team in the history of the Champions League/European Cup with 15 titles. But how have they achieved this? Steve Crossman and Guillem Balague explore Real's relationship with the competition, looking at their early dominance in the late 1950s, through to their six triumphs since 2014.We hear from former players Clarence Seedorf and Sami Khedira on what makes Real Madrid so special. And former coach Paul Clement joins the pod to give us insight into current head coach Carlo Ancelotti and their "La Decima" win in 2014 against Atletico Madrid.To watch the TV documentary, it is available on BBC iPlayer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m00276py/how-to-win-the-champions-league4:30 Real Madrid's early dominance 11:40 Clarence Seedorf on the Real Madrid DNA 22:10 Paul Clement on La Decima and Carlo Ancelotti 38:30 Sami Khedira on Real's recruitment 40:30 Can they continue their dominance?

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast. With Steve Crossman. Hi there. This is How to Win the Champions League, Real Madrid. It's the first in a series of programmes over the coming months about how the world's biggest clubs have won the European Cup time and time again. It's about lifting the trophy. It's about forming and building a relationship

with the biggest prize in club football. Alongside this podcast, there's a documentary on BBC iPlayer. If you just search for How to Win the Champions League, you'll find it. You'll hear from the likes of former Real Madrid president Ramon Calderon. We're going to hear from the likes of Sammy Cadera and Clarence Seedorf. We'll speak to Paul Clement, a big part of the coaching staff when Carlo Ancelotti's Real Madrid won La Decima. And how could you start How To Win The Champions League with anyone other than Real Madrid, the 15 times winners?

And could you do it without Guillaume Balaguet? I just don't think you could. Hola, Guillaume. Hello, Steve. You're such a big part of our EuroLeague's team. You're such a big part of our coverage of all European football. But if we're doing how to win the Champions League and Real Madrid, I mean, you'd expect the call, right?

Kind of, yeah, because I think it's the club I've been psychoanalyzing more often than any other. I can tell you why I think there is that special thing about them. I can also tell you that we can talk later, that I don't think

there is a DNA that makes them special but a bunch of things makes them completely different. And yeah, it is a DNA that makes them special, but a bunch of things makes them completely different. And yeah, it is a fascinating story because you have to touch on many, many things, many levels that have to do with the club to get to a conclusion at the end. See, what I'm really excited about is

I just think I'm going to learn a lot. And I think mostly about the early years of Real Madrid and the European Cup. So before we kind of get to that team that won all of the first five editions of the European Cup I think every big football fan probably has a first Real Madrid memory a first Champions League Real Madrid memory. What is yours when it comes to Real and the European Cup? Mine, I'm going to cheat here a little bit because... You surprised me.

We've just started and you're already cheating. Changing the question a little bit because, obviously, I am of the era where Real Madrid were not winning the European Cup, the Champions League, and it became an obsession. Then when La Décima came about, everything changed. And I was narrating and chronicling and writing about all of that. But there is one that I've always go back to when I think of Real Madrid, and it's the Real Madrid

entrant Frankfurt of 1960. I wasn't born. I was born eight years later. It was their fifth European Cup win. And I've heard from so many people talking about it, of the era, from Sir Alice Ferguson to Peter Lockyer, who edits with me and works with me. They watched it on television. If you remember, by the 60s, the European Broadcasting Union was able to provide the technical cooperation needed to do transmissions of television broadcasts across all the nations.

That started with the Eurovision Song Contest. And it changed the perception of football in the United Kingdom and all across Europe, really. It was the result, the goals from the Estefano three, of Puskas four. It was just a game that made people put the standards very high and everybody watched it and thought, right, this is how I want football to be. And yeah, it's the one that I've been watching as well because there's this myth in Spain that every Christmas

you put the game on, but you don't, but you have done for a few, you repeat it a few times. So I've been able to watch the tape, if you like. And that 7-3 game, it is the one that in a way started the whole special aura of Real Madrid, but also of the European Cup. Yeah, that's the 1960 final at Hampden Park. If I was just to use your Eurovision mention as a metaphor,

that fits nicely with the first two years of the European Cup because Real Madrid win the first one and then get to host it the next year when they win again. So that big question, how to win the Champions League, that Real Madrid team that won the first five, why did they win the Champions League, that Real Madrid team that won the first five, why did they win the first five? It was a different competition to start with.

Only the winners of the league were able to compete on it. But they had managed to put together a team that perhaps did not dominate domestic competition, but they kind of grew when they went out of the borders and showed their talent. The Estefano, Puskas, Gento had absolutely everything that you relate to greatness. the responsibility of representing a country. So that was dictatorship time. And the dictator, Franco, used Real Madrid to represent the best that Spain could offer. So the games started with the national anthem, not with the Real Madrid anthem.

So there was that sense of responsibility. And then, of course, once they started winning and they identified themselves with winning and with establishing a winning culture, they just wanted that legacy of excellence. They put the standards very, very high and every year they added one or two players that held them continue winning.

How come they never signed Stanley Matthews? Because if this was the Real Madrid of then, now, they would be signing the best player in the world every couple of years and there's a nice synergy in that

the first Ballon d'Or is also the first season of the Champions League so Real Madrid win in 56 Stanley Matthews wins the Ballon d'Or

ahead of two Real Madrid legends in Alfredo Di Stefano and the Frenchman Riman Kopa so they were clearly signing players but not like they sign players now. There was still an essence of Madrid about Real Madrid in a really, really strong way. This idea that Real Madrid signs the best players in the world is a 21st century idea

and it's one that has been imposed by Florentino Perez, who looked back at those years and thought, what was the essence of it? And the essence of it was, we're going to get really, really good players and they're going to give us really good nights in the biggest games and we're going to win a lot. And that transformed into a marketing, into a brand idea meant for Florentino, let's get every year the best player in the world. It wasn't so much like that. let's get every year the best player in the world. It wasn't so much like that. Di Stefano wasn't the best player in the world.

Had you identified who was the best player in the world at the time, Gento was one of theirs, but didn't start at Real Madrid. He had done really well at other teams, and they thought, yeah, he could join us. Puskas was a bit of an accident, leaves Hungary, and then he becomes available, so why not? And a lot of them reached their best level being together. As long as you've got players that have got the strong mentality, who are resilient, who have got quality, things

will happen for us. But yeah, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. We are the best in Europe. We are winning the European Cup. We have to win it again. And they managed to put together the perfect cocktail for that to happen.

There's an interesting serendipity about this, I think, as well. Do you think that those first five European Cups were the real building blocks, going all the way back to 1956, of Real Madrid now? And the reason I ask that is something that I didn't even know until I started reading about it this morning is Real Madrid win the league in 1954. So the two seasons before the Champions,

the European Cup is launched. But before then, they hadn't won the league between 1933 and 1954. So this wasn't this galactic team that had won everything for two decades now unleashed on Europe at all. Correct. Yeah, this era of success in Europe, what it did was establish a winning culture. So they themselves forced to keep winning because they started winning, but they weren't the best, sometimes the best team in Spain.

In the 20s, 30s, 40s, Atleti Club, for instance, de Bilbao, were the regular winners of the Cup, which was considered as prestigious as the league at the time. Barcelona started having success as well, and it was not a Barcelona-Andrea Madrid nation yet. But, as I said, winning the European Cup not only established a winning culture, gave them global recognition and prestige,

started making the club synonymous with greatness, which meant that players started attracting players of world-class level. It was also a club that could easily bring money in because there was clearly a link to the winning of commercial and financial growth. It became a marketable brand and caught the imagination of fans worldwide.

I think that period also gave them a little bit of a, defined their style of play, which is not so much about possession or being entertaining or being attacking. It was about winning. That became the style of Real Madrid, just winning. They never, ever married a single style. And by creating a dominance in Europe,

it just gave them a psychological edge. When you played Real Madrid, you knew that they were going to be the favourites because they had just been winning. Just to finish off, I think, the influence of those years, what was important is that that early success reinforced the perception that the club had of itself as the ultimate football institution that was built on tradition, on glory, on excellence, and

that was reproduced from the year 2000 by Florentino Pérez, and you have to say that if you ask anybody what does Real Madrid represent is, well, an expectation of winning, a tradition of excellence and a commitment to continuously being the best in the world.

All that started in the 50s. All right, let's just jump out of the timeline a little bit and get into the wider relationship and meaning of the Champions League European Cup to Real Madrid, what the club itself means to its stars as well. We can hear from an all-round European football legend. Clarence Seedorf is the only man to win the Champions League with three different clubs and he was in the Real Madrid team that beat Juventus in Amsterdam in 1998. Real Madrid DNA, if I have to describe it it it means that Real Madrid never forgets their

history meaning they never forget their legends they never forget the people that have built the club also behind the scenes they acknowledge those people they celebrate these people Madrid is a club that shows their history everywhere you walk. To remind everybody that, again, also the actual, the present players will be seen everywhere, but also the history of the club is seen everywhere. So you come here, you be part of this, make sure that if you want to be part of this for a long time, write your name and write a bit of history or so for the club. That is what it's transmitted. That for me is that DNA and it doesn't matter who you talk with. That is the type of mentality. That's how

they look at players coming in. That is how they treat everybody. It doesn't matter how big of a name you have. Once you're part of the club, and this should be for all the clubs, but it definitely counts for Real Madrid, no player has ever been able to think to be bigger than the club and act like that. We've seen it a few times happening where you might think, OK, no, they really cannot go around me, but they would then still make a choice. And that is the unspoken, I would say, the environment that anybody, any player or coach comes in, has to deal with. And if you can deal with it,

you're in the most amazing club in the world. if you can deal with it, you're in the most amazing club in the world. If you cannot deal with it, you're in the worst place that you can be because it's every day the pressure's on. Every day newspapers are being filled with all kinds of things. There's a lot of influences

around the club because it's such an important club. And as a player, as a manager, you need to be able to cope and manage that properly. You talk about pressure. You joined Real Madrid as a 19-year-old. Yeah. Here in England, there's obviously another young midfielder who joined.

I think he was 20 when he joined, in Jude Bellingham. Can you explain how do you deal with the pressure at that age? Can you see comparisons to yourself when you joined and what Jude had to deal with when he joined and how he handled that? To talk about Bellingham, he has an amazing personality. I think it also comes with some are just ready and if you're ready, you're ready. I don't think you can really build a character while you're coming and playing for Real Madrid. Either you have that character and you will fit in and you will find your space, which he has done amazingly.

I was ready, I felt ready for Madrid. Of course, I was playing a few years already on a high level, had my experience in the Champions League already, but I never felt that any external pressure could be bigger than what I want for myself. But of course you feel, as a team, the pressure to perform and the pressure to deliver. And that is where I think the individual player needs to bring the best that he has, often

on the pitch, to add value to get to such results. And that came natural to me, I have to say. I've never lifted that real pressure. Actually, I was enjoying it so much to be playing in the Bernabeu and playing with all my teammates and actually enjoying football. I mean, we had four amazing seasons and there were moments of difficulties where there was a conflict and then they had those political situations that we had so much more before

Florentino Perez came in, the opposition and the change of precedence at least, what they would be fighting for. And that's what I think has improved as a club. I think the club has created that stability with the entrance of Florentino Perez, which before wasn't. And that is a big advantage. I mean, when I went to AC Milan and you had Berlusconi, that was it. So you know, this is the owner, this is the management, and that went on for 30 years with all the results that we know.

So I think that the big advantage of Real Madrid is having that consistency in the management to be able to continue to build, you know, over time. And the results have spoken for themselves. Clarence Seedorf, the only man to win the Champions League with three different clubs. What's really interesting, I think, Guillaume, here, I mean, there was a lot that came out of that interview.

It was really good. Is that everything we've heard so far is all about Real Madrid and how amazing they were and winning all these European Cups. And you sort of listen to Seedorf there, it's almost like he's describing this kind of unbreakable spell for success. But the Champions League that he won with Real Madrid,

1998, came after a 32-year barren spell. How did that ever happen? Real Madrid not... And they only had one final, didn't they? 1981, Alan Kennedy, Liverpool, in that period. There's two things to say about that. First, it was a challenging time, no doubt.

And all other clubs started becoming bigger and even beating Real Madrid in the process, AC Milan, Bayern Munich there was the successful Liverpool, the successful Fútbol Club Barcelona later on and that kind of led to an erosion of Real Madrid's aura

of invincibility if you like. Each season, Real Madrid built a squad to win the Champions League or the European Cup, and it didn't happen. That added pressure. There was no time to build squads because if you didn't win the European Cup or didn't do well there, then you had to move on, no matter who it was. But rather than settling for mediocrity and hiding or trying to look for other targets that were less

ambitious, in fact, that period, which was a long period, 30 years, it was used as a motivation to restructure and try to reclaim the place of Real Madrid in Europe's elite. And that's where a couple of European cops came before the Galactico era that meant that Florentino wanted to take Real Madrid to that level of success. The other thing to say is that Sido, for many others, talk about Real Madrid as if they had a divine right to win, like a Champions League DNA. We talk about the DNA of Real Madrid

as something that has gone through the generations, if you like, but God has not granted a Spanish football club eternal success in Europe's best competition. The DNA doesn't exist. But precisely this myth, one that fans, club, players, managers, media believe in, that occasionally, not always, but occasionally transformed them into something extraordinary. When the stars align and a special generation of footballers get together yeah

they go beyond the ordinary but what's fair is the myth or having a bunch of players that are that got mental strength that are relentless that they could fight in the spirit perhaps they just basically feed each other that's really interesting because yeah that's what makes the dna idea slightly problematic is firstly it there's a danger that it takes away from the actual achievements of the the human beings in this scenario because it's almost labeled and thought of as destiny and it's not destiny you know you need to be incredibly good to win the competition but then also in a way it doesn't matter does it because if you go into that club as a player, as a coach, whoever, and believe that it is destiny, that within itself and in of itself can spur you on to

that achievement and those levels required. Totally. It's not divine intervention, but it's a belief system that makes the improbable feel inevitable. And how do you create that atmosphere in which everybody comes in and know that winning is an obligation? Well, we already said that in the Franco regime, Real Madrid was the country's representative, so that gives you a little bit of a big responsibility. You look at the presidential box in every game

at the Santiago Bernabéu, and you see politicians, financial bosses, prestigious celebrities, and you know that's the place to be in. But the very best in each field, in each of those fields, want to be associated with success. So fame, power, success are linked. And if you want to stay surrounded by that company, winning becomes an obligation. And then, of course, there is the problem

that that power, you know, it reinforces, as you say, the assuredness of those that embrace it. But it's terrifying weight around the neck of those that cannot deal with it,

as Sidov has said. And also on the rivals. Scenic fear is what Jorge Valdano calls it when rivals come to the Santiago Bernabéu. All that doesn't exist, really. It's in people's head. But it's created by this history we're describing. All right, so let's just jump the timeline on again a bit here.

So we heard from Clarence Seedorf there, Real Madrid, Champions League winner 1998. They win it again in 2002, Hampden Park, Glasgow, Zinedine Zidane, that goal that everybody remembers. And then they have to wait again. And this wait is key because it's the wait for La Dethima, the 10th title that they win in 2014 after extra time,

beating Atletico Madrid in Lisbon. Delighted to say we can speak to a man who was a big part of Carlo Ancelotti's coaching staff at Real Madrid when they won La Dethima. Paul Clement is with us. Hello, Paul. Always lovely to talk to you. Hello, Steve.

Yeah, nice to speak to you. And hello, Guillaume as well. Do you know, Paul, you can take the man out of Spain, but I don't think you can take Spain out of the man. I saw your face pop up on a Zoom briefly and you were just sort of dabbing your brow. Yeah, I had a nice game of paddle this morning, a game that I actually started when I was in Madrid and then didn't play for a while. But the sport is growing incredibly here now in the UK and courts, indoor and outdoor, are popping up everywhere. So very, very enjoyable sport to play. You'll have been listening there to our conversation about the idea of Champions League DNA with Real Madrid, which I imagine when you're there and you're at the heart of it, it's a good thing in that it makes everybody believe that this champions league is a competition

that they own but equally the pressure that it adds the expectation that it adds must be absolutely massive well i think uh from from day one when we went to the club and carlo carlo signed we got a real feeling of the importance of that competition. You go to the stadium, Carlo was signing his papers. It's done in the boardroom. There's a huge round table in there with chairs around the outside. And then there is a display cabinet. And in that cabinet, at that moment, there were nine European Cup trophies. There were not any other trophies in that room.

Only them were on display. So you really got a sense from the very start, we got a sense from the very start, that the Champions League, the European Cup, is very, very important. So this whole podcast is called How to Win the Champions League. And obviously we'll ask you about Carlo.

And I know you're not a particularly self-important man, Paul, but equally, I am really interested to know how you reflect on your own work and what you're proud of about your own impact on that. Because obviously it's significant. Otherwise, Carlo wouldn't have wanted you there and elsewhere. Yeah, I mean, when I look back on it, it was a very enjoyable and rewarding part of my career i think when we first got an idea that we might be going to the club we were working at paris saint-germain and carlos said that there's been some interest from real madrid at that point you don't want to get too excited that it's just you know a pipe dream and you know a lot of things in football they can they can come and they fly away before you know it but we got to us at the end of the season and they were

very serious. When it actually happened and we were going to leave PSG and go to Real Madrid, it was a fantastic moment. As in, you're right at the pinnacle of world football here and a chance to work at arguably the biggest club in football.

So it was exciting at the time. But looking back you know special special period in my in my life and in my in my football career you know memories that can't be but can't be taken away and I was fortunate you know I work with a fantastic football club I worked for a great coach and at a time when there was a brilliant group of players as well who were fantastic to work with and were very successful in that period as well. So I was really blessed at that time. Paul, help me psychoanalyse Real Madrid a little bit further

because we are talking about Sanik Fia, for instance, that sense when the rivals come into the Bernabeu that something bad is going to happen to them. But the fascinating thing is that it affects Real Madrid players as well. Not everybody have been able to step to the plate. I'm thinking Anelka, Antonio Casado, Michael Essien, Kaká, Saviola, Eden Hazard. So have you found many players that could not do it at Real Madrid? And why did it have to do with their head?

I think, first of all, as we were leaving PSG and going to Real Madrid, I was talking with Claude McAlealy, who was working with us at PSG, and he had obviously played at Real Madrid. And he said that the strength of character you have to play at this club is huge. And some will relish in that environment and will thrive, and others will suffer. And you mentioned Kaká, who, you know, Ballon d'Or winner, fantastic player for Milan, and who struggled in his,

certainly in the last part of his career at Real Madrid. When we arrived, he basically had had enough of it. who struggled certainly in the last part of his career at Real Madrid. When we arrived, he basically had had enough of it. And I think the weight of the expectation and the pressure affected him and affected his confidence. So yes, it does affect individual players. Some thrive, some don't. And I think it affects teams as well there have been some that come and you know you see them on the pit I never think it's a good sign when you see

players come on the pitch the opposition and they're taking pictures of the stadium and you know that's that doesn't seem to me right it's almost like they're happy to be there and almost like tourist footballers where they should be acting in a different way. But we had some big results against teams there. They really suffered against us. So that's a bit of an insight on those that suffer, if you like, at the Santiago Bernabéu playing against Real Madrid or playing for Real Madrid. But how about the mentality of those that succeed?

I've listened to Jude Bellingham in his documentary saying when I look at my teammates after Barcelona scored the first goal in a game in 2023 I only saw calmness when it's your first Clásico it's easy to be led by emotions but when the rest of the team is calm

you start thinking they know something I don't know. And that's a mentality gets referred by Rodri. He was watching the game, Real Madrid-Liverpool, and he says he remembers Real Madrid losing 2-0

in the last 16 in 2022. And he says, and I saw the face, the Real Madrid players' face, and I thought, these guys are not worried. So how can you not be worried when you're about to be the Real Madrid players face and I thought these guys are not worried so how how can you not be worried

when you're about to be knocked out of the competition that is that is key for your season yeah I mean I think that comes from a number of things you see when you

when you play with a with a team that's you know got great history got great history I think you have a certain responsibility and you know it gives you confidence when you put that

shirt on. In general, the players that play for Real Madrid are great players. So having confidence and belief is very, very, very important. And I think that comes from the coach as well. I think Carlo is a perfect coach for Real Madrid because he's calm and measured and he gives belief to his players. We've seen that a lot in the last few years and I was part of that and saw it close, very close quarters in 2014 in the final

when we were 1-0 down and he remained very composed. His halftime talk was very calm, gave the players belief. And although we left it late, you know, it was a comprehensive win in the end. I mean, 93rd minute equaliser, yeah, but it ended up 4-1. I always get asked about what's it like to work with those players? Haven't they got massive egos? Aren't they difficult to deal with?

And I said, yeah, they do have egos, and they have incredible confidence and belief. And I'd say it's not a negative. They need it. You need it to be able to operate at that level of football. When the pressure's high, you make a mistake, how do you react from it? Do you shrink in violet, or do you stick your chest out and say no on to the next thing belief and confidence and i've worked with a lot of players had that incredible belief

in confidence during that during that period sergio ramos alonso ronaldo incredible incredible mental strength that those players have. Can you give us a bit more insight into that team talk that you were talking about? So this is Estadio Deluge, 2014 Champions League final, Real Madrid trailing to Atletico. And as you've just been saying, as we all know, Sergio Ramos ends up scoring that dramatic injury time equaliser. It goes to extra time and Real go on to win 4-1. Was it what he said? Was

it how he said it? Or was it both that made the difference, do you think? Obviously, there was some tactical input, but I don't remember those things, what he actually said. And I think if you asked the players, they wouldn't remember it either. But if you asked them about how they felt and the message that was given and the tone of the message, I'm sure they would remember it. So that was given and the tone of the message. I'm sure they would remember it. So that, for me, is the key thing. Under the highest pressure, you know, in the biggest game

in European club football, the manager remains a calm and controlled demeanour, feeding the players with confidence and belief, these are the things that we need to do. And he also continued into the second half when he made the changes um you know three three three changes were made all the players went on and had a positive impact marcello had a positive impact um uh marata went on isco went on all had a positive impact in the game and although we although we left it late the team played well second half we were pushing and pushing and pushing and creating chances and you know that's what that's what you have to do you know you've got to create you've got to create chances and the team played very well in the

second half and when the goal went in obviously it was late and you start to get worried of course you know on the coach side and I'm like I need more we need more time we need more time so it was it was very late but as soon as that goal went in I sensed it the players sensed it you could see the Atletico Madrid players reaction reaction of our fans the reaction of your fans there was no way we were going to lose the game then at that point no way just on that thing about reaction of fans so um I was actually in Madrid for that Champions League final for the BBC World Service, like sort of spending the weekend with Real Madrid fans

and Atletico Madrid fans who hadn't gone to the game. And I watched that final inside the Vicente Calderon because they were doing like a beam back of the game. And the entirety of the stadium was full. So Atletico sold out their home stadium for a TV beam back. And there was about 20 seconds where I'd heard the commentary in Five Live in my headphones. And I knew that Real Madrid had equalised and the Atletico fans in the stadium didn't know. So I had that amazing opportunity to see their expressions and their emotions change and you could tell there and you could obviously

tell you know miles away in lisbon when that equalizer went in that they were shattered by that weren't they in every sense yeah it was um the life had been sucked out of them the players the fans and what you have to remember at that point is that the game is 1-1. You know, it's even. So they got as much chance as anyone of going on if they can hit the reset. But the fact is that they were so close, the emotion and the fatigue and, you know, the hammer blow of a scoring so late, it gave us a huge advantage going into the extra time. And then the extra time period

was just domination. We scored another three times. In fact, Madrid is perhaps the best, as we described, because they empower the players. And with perhaps the exception of Fabio Capello and Jose Mourinho, there's been hardly any phases in the Madrid history

in which the coach has been more important than the players. When they go shopping, they go for the best. That means quality, personality, big match players. And when those players arrive to Madrid, they know that less than winning is a catastrophe. But that also means that you have to have a particular coach to deal with all of that, which obviously Ancelotti or Del Bosque or Zinedine Zidane represent very well.

Because I feel, I don't know, you tell me better, Paul, but the Madrid player doesn't look at the bench when things go wrong. He looks inside himself and remembers why Real Madrid signed him. Because he's amazingly good. Because he's the man for the moment

at that place, in that competition. Because that shirt has been worn by the Stefano Gento, Raul Zidane, Cristiano, Sergio Ramos so if he wears it it's because he's very good and can sort these out you feel that happens too yeah sure and I think that goes back to you know you know you're recruiting good players in terms of talent you know physical talent technical talent tactical ability as well. But you're also recruiting them because of what you see in them from a mentality point of view. Belief, confidence, how do you deal with adversity, your strong personality, you're a good teammate. All those things are very, very important as well. I think the point about the players don't look so much to the bench

and are looking for guidance from the coach is because that's certainly been the style of Carlo. I don't know so much about Zizou. I mean, I worked with him as an assistant, but I didn't see him lead a team. But I get a sense that he was similar in a lot of ways, that the responsibility is given to the players. And Carlo's always liked that kind of style about respect between player and coaches, that they're given responsibility. He organizes them well.

They get the game plan. Their organization is all nicely set. And then it's down to them to go and deliver. You know, they're not reliant on the coach and i think the best players thrive in that kind of environment you give them boundaries you know all the good teams need boundaries and rules and you know tactical instruction but then you know carlo you know very much believes in flexibility in the system particularly offensively not defensively i think always defensively like structure and this is where you need to be and this is what we're going to do.

But offensively about giving the players the creativity that doesn't stifle their ability. Paul, I just want to finish with asking you about this quote. It's a quote from Zlatan Ibrahimović. He said, Jose Mour that explains his great success, particularly in this competition and particularly with Real Madrid? I mean, he's won it twice with AC Milan as well, of course. Yeah, I think it's a great skill of Carlo. All the clubs that I work with him, there was always a lot of respect between him and the players.

I never saw him fall out of a player. There's also this thing about, you know, he's not stern and tough, but, you know, he has control. Absolutely, he has control. You don't get to do what he's done without being in control. But he does it in a very clever way. And all the big players, all those clubs, and Madrid is no exception, they liked and respected the way that he led them. All the big players did.

It's been a key in his career, Carlo, and I think it comes from his humble upbringing. His father was a farmer. He didn't have much growing up but was taught about the values of being a good person and about respect particularly and that's something that he's taken through his career and he's I think he's an expert at it in his management style honestly it's always great to hear your insight thank you so much for uh for talking to us really appreciate it all right pleasure Steve nice to speak to you as well game cheers Paul Paul Clement

there massive part of of Carlo Ancelotti's coaching team winning La Deathama with Real Madrid in 2014. And look, you can't do how to win the Champions League without talking about Carlo Ancelotti. He won it five times as a manager and twice as a player as well in the late 80s and early 90s. Let's hear from one more former Real Madrid player, and fittingly enough it's someone who won the Champions League with Paul

and Carlo in 2014. This is Sami Khedira on the ingredients needed to be an attractive signing for Real Madrid. They're not just signing players of their datas or scoring goals or just of their performances

quality. They are also taking care about what kind of personality you are, of your work ethic, character. And if you are able to handle all the pressure. And I know that there are like a lot of great players who are able to play quality-wise for Real Madrid. But Real Madrid declined to sign them because of their attitude

or maybe because of their personality. So that makes my point of view, Real Madrid's really special and that's maybe the DNA that there's just trying to sign players with a strong personality, handle pressure on a really high level and just like really high quality players. As part of that, like a lot of people talk about the weight of the jersey at Real Madrid. You kind of alluded to it a bit there in your answer, but what does that mean to you and do you feel that? 100% do you feel that, 100%. And it's like maybe if a big player signed for 100 million, the pressure is even higher

because everybody's expectation is so high. So it's maybe the same with the shirt. So at the end, it's no money, but it's like the history and what you have to give back to the club. And if I think about back in the days, Di Stefano won like five in a row. And then, like my idol, Zidane wore this shirt

and many, many others. Big, big, big, big players. The best in the world or best in history. You have to bring something back to this shirt or give back something to this shirt.

So it's not just the beauty in white. It's like a lot of history and tradition into it sammy cadera and that sums up what we've been talking about so well this idea of of real madrid and success begets success and i think it just gives us a chance game to finish by throwing it forward real madrid have won the european cup 15 times since the first season of it 55 56 is there any reason to think that they won't continue

to dominate the competition? Do the building blocks that were first put into place in 1956 still exist? You've talked about all the change in Florentino Perez. What does the future hold? There's been an evolution that is worthwhile mentioning to answer that question. At the beginning of the Galactico era,

Florentino Perez bought big players. Egos beat him and he had to leave. And when he came back, he mixed big players with players that were necessary to the squad. Now with the prominence of the Premier League and the fact that Real Madrid don't have the financial muscle to beat PSG, for instance,

he's had to go and get up-and-coming players like Rodrigo and Benicius, pay 60 million for them, not cheap, but then help them to become the Ballon d'Or winners at Real Madrid. And another evolution in terms of the players that they're getting is the fact that now they're getting them out of contract

at the end of the contract. So Real Madrid have been able to adapt. They have an essence, an idea of what they want. Winning is an obligation. We already described the psychology behind the club. All that will remain, well beyond Florentino Perez, I would say, partly because the replacement of Florentino Perez could be his son. So there will be a bloodline there and a way of thinking

that will allow Real Madrid to continue and be at the top. Let's finish with this, Guillaume, right? Let's finish with this. A nice, easy one to end on. We've been talking about the broad theme, how to win the Champions League and the kind of coaches and players

that are required to do it. Carlo Ancelotti has done so much. He's been the perfect fit for Real Madrid in so many ways. And Paul Clement gave us a fantastic insight into why. Who's next? Xavi Alonso will be next. It's that easy. There we go, done. Yeah, easy. But if you want to win the Champions League, don't follow the path of Real Madrid. You cannot replicate that. In fact, I remember hearing Pep Guardiola saying, we're going to meet Real Madrid next week, and I'm not going to prepare this game. This is for somebody who's obsessed about preparation,

because I've got no idea how they're going to play. And recently, I was with Carlos Corberan, whose first game with Valencia was against Real Madrid, and he went into the board and said, look, how can you defend against this? Seven players went on the left-hand side of the attack. Seven! How can you... So they do things in their own way. They're not a pattern that has to be followed. But in that idea that they need to modernize a little bit and add an extra layer of knowledge to the players,

without being too much of that, I think Xabi Alonso will be the perfect replacement to Carlo Ancelotti. Guillaume, just for anyone listening to this, he's like, God, that Guillaume Balaguet, he is so good. They can hear you every week on BBC Sounds, can't they? What should they search for

if they were looking for a European football podcast to get their teeth into? It's called the Euroleague. Oh, the Euroleague. It comes on on Thursday. It's Football Daily Pot. Not just can hear me. You can hear a lot of very intelligent people talking every single day.

A new pot every day. If you go to BBC Sounds, that's where you got all of this intelligent conversation. And one very unintelligent presenter. Guillaume, thank you very much indeed. Always a pleasure. Cheers, Steve. That's Guillaume Balaguet and How to Win the Champions League, Real Madrid.

That's just episode one. Look out over the course of the next few months for more episodes of this podcast, looking at some of the other great clubs and their great successes in Europe's premier club competition. Head over to BBC Sounds, subscribe to the Football Daily if you haven't already, and thank you so much for listening.

Sir Alex Ferguson is the most successful British manager of all time. So how did this apprentice toolmaker from Glasgow British manager of all time. So how did this apprentice toolmaker from Glasgow become one of the most iconic figures in sporting history? His strength of character, his determination, the fight in him. Ferguson was every department. He can be persuasive, he can be charming, he can be frightening. Godin is the best. It's as simple as that. I'm Kelly Cates and this is Sporting Giants

Sir Alex Ferguson. I didn't want to feel. I couldn't feel. Listen on BBC Sounds.