Football Daily - Mark Chapman meets: Rob Page

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

In an exclusive interview – Chappers speaks to the former Wales manager Rob Page who joins the pod for the very first time after being sacked from his position in the summer. During the episode Page opens up about his emotions after losing his role – and the incredible highs of taking Wales to their first World Cup in over 60 years. We get insight into what it was really like for Page dealing with some of the sports biggest names from Gareth Bale, Aaron Ramsey to Ashley Williams and details what life was like for a manager during those major tournaments.As well as the highs, Page lets us in on the lows of the role – to results at the World Cup not going his way, to others being linked to his managerial job. And ultimately what’s next for him in football. Timecodes: 02:47 – Hard watching Wales for first time as losing the role. 03:00 – Hard to take being sacked and adjusting to life without the position. 04:00 – Good to have chance to reflect. 05:00 – Know when you get into management that you will get the sack – just don’t know when. 09:00 – Dealing with the big names like Bale in the dressing room. 12:00 – Wales got to the World Cup because how they managed Bale. 13:00 – Nervous going into first meeting with Bale. 14:00 – There being no egos in Wales changing room. 23:00 – Taking Wales to the World Cup and the emotions of that. 31:00 – Gary Speed’s legacy. 33:00 – Disappointment at the World Cup. 40:00 – How he dealt with rumours of Roy Keane being linked to his job. 44:50 – There to help Craig Bellamy if he needs it. 47:00 – Not sure of future plans yet. Open to domestic or international football.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Hello, welcome to Special 5 Live Sport. I'm joined by the former Wales manager Rob Page, speaking to us for the first time since he left his role back in the summer. We'll get insight into what life was like as a national team coach, what went right, what didn't, and ultimately, what's next. So you've had the summer off?

I've had a couple of months. I've had a couple of months. I'm getting on the Mrs. Nerms already. Has it been weird having the summer off? Has it been good? Did you need it? Not really. It hasn't been that unusual Mark, if I'm honest, because being an international manager, the camps are sporadic throughout the year, so you're used to having that little bit of time in between camp. What was unusual

is, come September, when I knew I was going to be meeting up on camp and not being there on that Sunday to meet the players and greet the players, and that was harder. That was a hard week for me. And as it worked out, funnily enough, I said to my wife

when the draw came out and I saw the home game on the Friday the 6th, I thought I'm going to be as far away from Cardiff as possible and I'd struggle to watch the game

if I'm honest but my son plays basketball for Wales and his presentation evening was right in the centre of Cardiff on that Friday evening. So I ended up in the centre of Cardiff in the hotel watching him get presented with his cap,

which was an amazing evening anyway and a great achievement for him. So it was a nice, yeah, distraction, put it that way. That's great. So he's an international basketball player? He is, he is, yeah. He's doing really well. He's in college at the minute, in full time.

He just started his second year and he's doing okay yeah he's playing basketball he loves it what kind of uh dad are you when when watching how many how many kids are you well we've got five between us right yeah my wife's got two daughters and i've got i've got three my eldest is in the states coaching football coaching soccer coaching whatever you want to call it. My daughter's studying to become an interior designer and my youngest wants to be a basketball player. So what kind of sporty dad are you, on the sideline or on the touchline? I'd like to say calm, but I think others around will disagree with me.

Listen, watching basketball is better than watching football. My eldest played football until he was in his mid teens and on a Sunday morning you can relate to this no doubt on a Sunday morning watching

watching it in the driving rain and it's quite hard basketball is different from that you can have a nice cup of coffee sit in the

warmth but I'm very competitive and I want them to be and they are to be fair they are and they have got that winning winning

driving streak yeah there's something quite nice about watching two daughters play netball indoors as opposed to watching, well, one of them plays football as well, and watching her in the pouring rain every week is a lot harder than sitting in the sports hall. You knew you'd find it hard that week then

that Wales were going to be playing. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Because ultimately, when you get the sack, you don't want to leave. It's not your choice. So I was still in that mindset then of looking forward to the camp. And, you know, it was a hard one to take, you know, when you're sacked.

The next couple of days, couple of weeks, it took me a little while to come to terms with it, if I'm honest. And you do, you miss it because you're in that routine. You know, all the planning throughout the summer as well was with one eye on September, ready for the Turkey game. So it is a hard one to adjust to, but you've got to get on with it.

This is football, Mark, as we know, and you've got to adjust and the sooner you do, the better. How do you adjust? Do you have people you talk to? Do you talk to your wife? Do you talk to your kids? Do you have to deal with it in a solitary way? No, no, no, no.

You do talk. Of course you do. And I think you just, that's it. I've been in football long enough. I've been in football since I was, I moved to Watford at 16 to do an apprenticeship. And this is the first time I've been at work, you know? So since 16, having played until I was 35,

I was one of the lucky ones who got to 35 and you get your pension. And I went straight into coaching at Port Vale with Mickey and with the youth team. So the transition from playing through to international management has been seamless for me, I think, anyway. So just adjusting to that.

You do talk to people, of course. You do talk to other pals in the game. And I've got some good friends in the game that I speak to. And it's been nice, though, Mark, just to other, other pals in the game and I've got some good friends in the game that I, that I speak to and it's been nice though, Mark, you know, just to have a little bit

of time to reflect as well because things, when you get the sack, there's been a lot that's gone right. Don't get me wrong, since, since I inherited

that squad from Ryan, a lot went right but ultimately something went wrong at the end for me to get the sack so it's been a great opportunity for me

to have some time to reflect. Do you think it can sometimes be forgotten, the stuff that went right? I'm not necessarily, I mean, for a lot of people in your chosen career. Yeah. Because the sack comes to most people. Yeah, of course it does. One thing you know, when you go into management, you're going to get the sack. You just don't know when it's going to happen.

And I think because we'd had a lot go right for us and a lot of good times, when we didn't qualify for the Euros and the playoff game against Poland and to go out on penalties is a cruel way to go out anyway. But, you know, in particular, we're a penalty kick away through the playoffs and going in.

Expectations before that are Euros. The second Euros that we're going to, a World Cup. Perhaps expectations were that we should the second Euros that we're going to a World Cup perhaps expectations were that we should have qualified you know so yeah

it's managing the expectations is difficult but it's not forgotten the good times that we had but it becomes almost standard then

we expect to qualify for the Euros irrespective whether we've got a Gareth Bale and Aaron at the top of his game and a Joe Allen and top senior players that played a massive part in the success

that Wales have had over recent years. Looking back, the Cookies 2016 squad as well, from that. I discussed this a fair bit on the radio around the time that you were losing your job as well, because it coincided with Scotland being at the Euros, for example. And I can remember having this discussion with several people on different shows, that

unless you are maybe three or four of the biggest European countries, international football is cyclical. And you are going to have the troughs to go with the peaks. And there aren't many nations that have escaped that. Even those that are assumed to be, you know, big European nations. The Dutch have missed tournaments. The Italians have missed tournaments. But the expectation is maybe slightly different.

I wonder whether that's because more teams qualify. I don't know. Or just we demand more. Expectations, 100%. I think it's a great point you make. I think all teams go through a transition. The bigger the nation, the quicker the transition. It's as simple as that.

We haven't got a pool of players that can dictate that we can just go and get a second string 11 and put them out. And we've got a core. We've always had, even since I took over seven years ago, I took the under-21s job and Ryan came in as manager. And even then, you had a core squad of players. Outside of that, you know, you were struggling. It's got better over recent years.

Of course, it has. We've now got, we can look back at the bench now and you've got a little bit'n dda, rydych chi'n gweld, mae'r chwaraeon yn fwy o gyffredinol felly i mi fynd i gael cwyl o'r are one penalty kick away perhaps that you do kick yourself and go why not why couldn't we have finished it in the 90 minutes but when i look back at the games and we give it absolutely everything we we could let's go back to the very start and we'll go through lots of the good times then from the very start i mean you got the job in quite difficult circumstances didn't you having to step in for ryan gigs who was involved in you know court cases and so on and so forth we don't need to talk about on that side of things was that difficult for you well well it was I was the under 21s manager Ryan was a manager he phoned me within it within 24 hours of getting the job before me and um he wanted to know who was ready to step up from the under 21 so I gave him three or four five names and and truth to his word he took the lads up. And within a couple of months,

he lost his assistant manager to Morocco. I think he went to Morocco, Oshun. And he phoned me and he went, look, I've got position. One of the coaches has left. Would you like to step up? He said, you can sleep on it if you want. I went, absolutely not.

I'm there. You know, it was an easy decision for me. I knew half the squad anyway because I'd helped promote them up into the first team and to be a part

of the first team you know was what everybody wants to be involved in so so yeah I took that decision to step up with him

and Albert who's Mikel's assistant at Arsenal one of the best coaches I've worked with exceptional and I learnt so much

in that time I was up with him and I learnt so much in that time I was up with them and I got nothing but respect for Ryan for giving me that opportunity so and then you know

what happened happened and I was asked to step up so what made it easier for me Mark I think is that I knew half the squad

I knew the players of course I did I used to watch them play myself but they didn't really know me and how I worked and there were

some big characters some big big characters in that changing room. And I thought the first thing I've got to do is get them on board. You need to get those characters on board first and foremost. Does that start with Gareth Bale? Absolutely, yeah. Number one?

Number one. And then you've got people like Rambo, Aaron and Joe Allen. I've got a great relationship now with Ash Williams, who's a top, top bloke for me. So he was in that transition. He was coming to the end of his international career I just stepped up with Ryan and he was not playing as many minutes as he would like but he was another great lad and fully supportive big Wayne Hennessy so what we did was we got a committee I put a committee of about five senior players together and anything I wanted to to do or or change or tweak there wasn't a lot

that needed changing by the way when Ryan when Ryan left because they were in a good place and on the way up. And we had a buy-in from them straight away. So anything we wanted to, like I said, tweak on a Saturday or with regards to training, I let them have a little bit of an input. And I think that's how I got the respect then straight away. Was the first meeting with all of those,

after you got the job, was it a group of them or did you do it individually? Individually to start with. And then, you know, I just addressed the group. But then within a couple of months, it was in the Euros. We were Wales. So inevitably, whatever team we were going to play against in the Euros, we were going to be the underdogs.

And when we were the underdogs, our mentality was, well, let's go back five. Arguably, one of the best performances we had in those Euros was against Turkey we played a 4-2-3-1 we played Aaron as a 10 off big Kiefer

and Baylor wide right and DJ wide left fell in love with that straight away I loved not just on paper but the energy it brought

and if they want to be aggressive in the press we had the option of playing over into Kiefer and then you know setting Aaron in behind so we covered a lot of angles with that and I really liked that back four so to be aggressive in the press. We had the option of playing over into Kiefer and then, you know, setting Aaron in behind. So we covered a lot of angles with that and I really liked that back four.

So if I wanted to continue with that, I'd have to get them to buy into it because they're not daft. They're senior players that have played at the top, top level. So they understand that if we're playing like Denmark, let's say next, you know, how can we influence them?

Not just about being the best version of ourselves, but how can we cause them problems and not just cause them problems, but deal with the threat that they pose so just getting that little committee together and having that buy-in um definitely helped me do you think you impress them more or make an impression on them more through tactics i think you've got to show them respect first and foremost so the biggest thing for me when i when i went in was i didn't insist that gareth bale i didn't have another gareth bale behind me on the bench yeah i needed bail or fit i needed him to play he wasn't playing a club level he couldn't train throughout the week

so one of the first conversations i had was look you tell us i need you for saturday five o'clock saturday eight o'clock friday whatever the game is i need you on that pitch so let's work backwards from that. Work with my medical team. I'm not going to sit here and be arrogant enough to say you have to train Thursday in the 11-11 because that's a tactical day. That's when I take the training and we get the points across. You know, he wouldn't have been right for Saturday.

So there's no point, there's no benefit in me doing that. And I think we managed it well. And I think, if I'm honest, I think we got to the World Cup because of how we managed. Gareth, he scored the goals ultimately that um that have got us there and I think my medical team at the time and myself the coaches how we managed him helped us get to the World Cup without doubt it's strange because we're all human beings and you've been as you you've explained you're a professional footballer for over 20 years and you had managed

as well it was lower leads it was port vale and northampton and you've gone through the the academy setup and yet you are now managing one of the the greatest footballers in the world at the greatest club side in the world is there any element of you that then then goes well, this is a bit intimidating. Of course, you question yourself. Because I don't think you would be human if that wasn't the case. Absolutely. I can't explain how nervous I was

going into that first meeting, Mark. As you can imagine, it's Gareth Bale. He's played in one of the biggest clubs in world football. With some of the biggest managers in world football. Absolutely. Which is the other thing.

Yeah. And he could easily sit there and go to, well, Carlo Ancelotti doesn't do it like that. Or Mourinho. Do you know? Of course he could have. Or Zidane. But do you know the biggest thing?

He never done it once. He never done it once. And he was fully engaged in what you had to say to him. Myself and my coaches. In fact, there's a funny story because one of the coaches come in later, Alan Nill, who's at Sheffield United now,

big Nilly, great bloke. And one of his first sessions, he was exactly as you just described, like I was when I first did my first session with the lads. And you start to question yourself

and you think, are they hanging on to every word? I've got to get this right because, you know, they've been at top clubs with top coaches and managers. And he was quite surprised how engaged they were.

You know, and they weren't just listening and they were really engaged and then they'd you know engage in conversation and challenge a few things or ask a few things and and he come off after and he went to me hey they're all right aren't they they're a good well of course they are and you know what mark that was our leveler for wales that's our leveler there's no egos in the changing room there's no egos and baylor used to be the one that used to drive thatller there's no egos in the changing room there's no egos and Bailo used to be the one that used to drive that as a captain leaving egos at the door

we're all one we're all equal when we walk in this building and he was the one who used to drive that the atmosphere was so relaxed you know

he'd be the biggest prankster in there and at times as a manager you're sitting there thinking oh we're a bit too relaxed here

you know sometimes you get that feel that if we're not careful we could get a wallop in here. But then you go on and win the game and you're like, oh no, do you know what? And he drives that, Bailo, he drives that.

He drives the environment. It's got to be relaxed. But then when you walk on the pitch, that switch, you've got to have that switch to be at it to get the wins. But you also need a group to buy into you treating someone differently to the rest of them for for everybody's own good couldn't do it at club level you couldn't you probably could not do that at club level treat somebody so differently but probably not nowadays ferguson did it with canton are didn't he the famous story is after he'd gone into the crowd at sell has part that ferguson went around

the dressing room and went, in more industrial language, you know, Bruce, you're rubbish. Pallister, you're rubbish. Inch, you're rubbish. Eric, don't do that again. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah. But I don't think you could now.

I don't think so. And, you know, you've got such a, every premiership team now has probably got strength and depth that they go, well, we don't have to tolerate that. Not tolerate it, but we don't have to do that because we've got such and such who can press at that intensity. mae'n debyg fod yna gryf yn ymlaen, mae'n mynd yn dda. Nid ydym yn rhaid i ni ddod â hynny, ond nid ydym yn rhaid i ni wneud hynny oherwydd mae gennym rywun sy'n gallu ymgymryd â'r intensiti hwnnw. Yn gyffredinol, nid yn unig o ran y bwl,

ac mae'r rhan yn y bwl. Ond ar lefel rhyngwladol, gallwch chi ei wneud oherwydd rhai o'r chwaraewyr eraill, maen nhw'n deall beth oedd Gareth Bale a'r chwaraewyr a'r hyn a allai ei wneud. Felly roedden nhw'n llwyr gyda hynny. Nid yw un o'r chwaraewyr wedi nodi mynd i'r ddwy, player he was and what he's capable of doing. So they were fully on board with it. I don't think there was one player in the Not Madone and said that I should be playing instead of Gareth because he's not trained. They understood the circumstances

and they wanted us to win as a group. And to do that, we needed him on the pitch. What did you like best about coaching at international level? And what frustrated you the most? The time we have together, that's frustrating because you've got to think as well, you know, we're Wales.

Some of your best players aren't playing. I used to have an argument with some of the coaches that I'd rather some of our younger players, instead of get the move to the top clubs and then play in the 23s football, I'd rather them stay and play first team football.

And you've got players coming into camp off the back of playing senior football. The amount of times we had to manage the week because the players are not playing. So we had to spend the first two days getting them up to speed and then coming off them, getting them ready for the game.

So on a Monday, for example, not every one of the players, let's say like an England squad, would have played all 90 minutes on a Saturday or a Sunday. So we'd have three different groups training. We'd have a group that the lads ysgwad Lloegr, byddai wedi chwarae ymlaen 90 munudau ar ddiwrnod o'r ddiwrnod neu'r ddiwrnod. Felly byddwn ni'n gweithio â tri grwpiau gwahanol. Byddwn ni'n gweithio â grwpiau a oedd y rhai ar adref ail-leithiol o chwarae ddiwrnod. Byddwn ni'n gweithio â grwpiau sy'n bodoli yn llwyr o'u

ffyrdd oherwydd eu bod wedi chwarae y ddiwrnod. Ac yna byddwn ni'n gweithio â grwp, y grwp mwyaf, nad oedd yn chwarae o'r wythnos. Felly roedden ni'n ei angen i'w ddodd â rhywfaint o pwysigrwydd a rhai munudau. Felly mae'r cymhlethau ar hynny ar ddiwrnod. Ac yna, roedd y ddiwrnod yn wahanol iawn ac yna rydych chi'n dod allan ohonyn nhw to hit them with some intensity and some minutes. So the complexities are on that on a Monday. And then Tuesday was a little bit different. And then you come off them a little bit on the Wednesday because a lot of players now can't train three consecutive days. So you have to manage that as well. Two or three players that we had before can't train three consecutive days. So on the Wednesday, you can't do your tactical

because there's a few of the players that you want to play on the Saturday can't train. So that becomes then, right, we'll do it on the Thursday. So you don't have to manage the week around the players' physical capabilities as well. So two things on that. That could also change. You could have all your plans devised. Yeah.

And then all of a sudden someone that you're not expecting to play starts. And then that completely changes what you do on the Monday. Yeah, absolutely. So you've got to be flexible. And then when you say players can't train three days consecutively now, is that just because of the physical demands of the modern game? Exactly that, yeah. So we can have players coming in from all different clubs

that have different philosophies, different intensities that they train at. So they come in at different levels of fitness. So Nick Davis was my most recent fitness coach. Tony Strudwick was Ryan's, who I inherited, yn dod i mewn ar lefelau gwahanol o'r ffittnes. Felly, roedd Nick Davies yn fy ngweithiwr ffittnes diweddaraf. Roedd Tony Strudwick yn Ryan, a oedd yn dda iawn. Roedd yn wych hefyd o'r dyddau Man United. Ac roedden nhw'n defnyddio'r clwbau, tri wythnos yn ôl, wythnos yn ôl, a'u casglu'n llawer o ddata i'w rhoi cychwyn i ni, i'r hyn rydyn ni'n ei wynebu pan maen nhw'n when they come on camp. So again, you can have a plan, but you've got to be flexible with it

because on the Monday or the Sunday when you get there, we get them all checked. They check into the hotel. We get medical checks on a mini afternoon. I meet with a medical team. I used to meet with a medical team on the Sunday evening, after the evening meal, and then we go through the players

and we go, right, these are the groups. So by Sunday evening, we know roughly then what the players are capable of doing on the Monday. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. On BBC Sounds, sporting giants delve deep into the lives and careers of some of the biggest names in sports and hear from those who know them best,

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The Football Daily Podcast. With Mark Chapman. Once the week is over, once the games are over, how do you debrief if everybody immediately is going off? Yeah, that's difficult. It is difficult. If you've got two games, it's fine. You get the first game out of the way. If there's things that need addressing, you haven't really got the time to be even going over the good bits you know yeah so if we played really

well and we've kept a clean sheet and we won two nil and and how we want to play everything's worked to what we trained sometimes you can go over it and say look these were the good bits and this is now with one eye on the next game because three days in the nations league now three days later you're playing another game so really you only feed back if things ain't quite gone to plan or you need to improve on a few aspects of the

game but like I said going back to the pre-game you probably got them two days on grass so Thursday is your tactical day you know MV11 Friday you have to come off them

because they're one day before the game so you one or two days tactical on the grass which is challenging when you've got players coming from all different clubs that have their own ideas and how they want to play.

So that can be quite hard. And then, like you say, after the games, after the second game, I always used to message the players and not from a tactical point of view because by then they need to switch off and go back into their clubs. But just to touch base on how the camp's gone

and then you just keep in touch with them in between camps. And then once they've all gone back and your two fixtures are over, did you get bored? Well, then you just go and watch games and you try to visit as many clubs

and you keep in touch with the players but just watching games or whatever I was, so I'm based in Sheffield so for me, it was perfect for me with Leeds

because they signed, at the time they had four Welsh lads there so I'd just go and watch the Welsh lads wherever they were playing and then monitor them but we knew

we've got a core of players outside of that there'd be one or two maybe changes but when you've got a core group of players it's just making sure that there's no injuries

and Sean Connolly the medical head of medical who's based in the Vale of Glamorgan I used to dread it on the Saturday before we meet

on the Sunday if he called me Saturday evening at 7 o'clock I knew there was going to be an issue so you'd have to again

you compile Were you half expecting it? You pray you hope you hope that everybody comes into camp

with a clean you know with a health but you do get the odd ones that get an injury on the Saturday and then is it

soft tissue will we be able to manage them? We've still got until Saturday to play, but then you've got to buy in from the club as well because we're borrowing the players ultimately. So we don't want to cause any more damage. So you have to build that respect and relationship with the clubs as well. Then in many ways, are major tournaments a godsend?

Because you can kind of do your job properly then can't you because you can you can plan everything for longer than just a week and all the different variables that we've talked about the two major tournaments the euros and the world cup that we qualified for we we went to portugal for for week camps before then we flew out and that's great because then you've got plenty of time you've got all the time in the world to get them up to speed you look at the data do they need you know x amount of work put into them from a tactical point of view is anything we're going to change we're going to tweak already looking with one eye on the first game of the tournament so for example looking at

usa when we went to the world cup how they were going to play how they were going to press and then we give us plenty of time on grass to work it. So it does definitely make it easier, easier to plan and to work. What was that World Cup like for you? The build-up to it, before we get to the games themselves, but the build-up, start with the Ukraine play-off. Well, the Ukraine and the Austria game as well. But I think what helped us is the Austria,

and originally we were going to be four days apart four or five days apart and with the ageing team that we had I think we might have struggled you know

with it being four days apart so ironically that helped us being a couple of months apart from each other so the Austria game was

incredible Bale was free kick in the top corner you couldn't stand there and place the ball in the corner any closer than what

he got it and then the Ukraine game trying to manage the emotions Mark was and place the ball in the corner any closer than what he got it and then the Ukraine game trying to manage the emotions Mark was the hardest part bear in mind we've just seen what they've done

to a very good Scotland team so we that was the biggest thing for us manage the emotions of the game don't get too caught up

with it and in the end the demands coming from them well we had to make a stand and go right enough's enough

we're just going to focus on the game now and concentrate on it and I think we managed it really well I'm not just going to focus on the game now and concentrate on it. And I think we managed it really well. I'm not just talking about me and the players and the staff. I'm talking about the backroom staff in the offices.

Because that was a very, I mean, that was a hell of an emotional time. And that's one of those where, again, you're expected to be more than just a football manager. Yeah. Aren't you? Absolutely. Yeah, because look, we're all dads. We've all got kids.

We've all got elderly parents and you don't want to be caught up in a situation like they have. So we feel for that. But then there has to come a switch. You've got to make that decision, Mark, that, look, ultimately we want to get to a World Cup. So you've got to strip the emotions away from it and say, no, we've got to be ruthless here in what we want to do. There's 3 million Wales supporters here that want to get there. away from it and say, no, we've got to be ruthless here in what we want to do. You know, there's 3 million Wales supporters here

that want to get there. We haven't got there since 1958. So we want to give everything we've got to get to this World Cup. And I think the players in the end managed it really well. They did. And to get the result we did and the goal and the goal scorer in Bailo,

and, you know, it was just a perfect ending to it. And to qualify, I've said this time and time again before, but I can't describe that last 15 minutes because we were under a bit of pressure. You know, Ukraine were a very good team. And on that night, they played really well and they put us under a lot of pressure, late on, as you can imagine.

So that last 15 minutes was very uncomfortable. And you can't do anything about that. As in, because everybody can see what you're going through yeah and and how you manage that is really important both because the fans can see you yeah and your players can see you so if teams i'm involved in are under the pump or i i sort of i'll pace but i'm pacing either in my own kitchen or away from where anybody can see it but you're in You're stood in front. It can be a lonely

place that technical area at times. It can be but yeah Because you can't look scared You've got to be the one to give a calming sort of influence yeah absolutely to the bench to the lads behind and we'd made the changes

we could do we weren't going to put another centre back on because we were under an enormous amount of pressure so we managed to see the game out and

you're right that last 15 minutes were uncomfortable but you've got to be the one at the front Have you always been good at that or have you had to

teach yourself that? No I'm quite an emotional guy so I kick every ball and I'm there on the side and i get frustrated and i think i've learned to manage that differently absolutely and you know everybody's looking at you on the side the supporters and everybody for for guidance so yeah you've got to be that calm and influence and like i said when the referee put the whistle to his lips that is you go from the most anxious i've ever felt to the best feeling in the world incredible knowing that we've done it and we're there please for the supporters of course in the nation but

the senior players like Bailo and Rambo and to give them the opportunity and Joe Allen to go and to go and play in a world cup Joe was actually injured he got injured before the world cup um and there was no way I was never going to take him you know he didn't the right to be there and and we did and we it was the day before two days before the Iran game that he it was still i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd i fynd and if he comes through, you've got him. If he doesn't, he's out. So it came down to that with Joe, but thankfully we got him through and he was able to then play in a World Cup. I'll come back to that in a second. Was getting through to the World Cup,

was that night the happiest night of your international managerial career? Without a shadow of a doubt. Without doubt, Mark, honestly. The most incredible feeling with that special group of players, honestly, in the most incredible feeling with that special group of players honestly

in the changing room after you know we do what we do on the pitch and we go and show our appreciation to the supporters

and all celebrate together and David Ewan with the song Amor Ahid that was incredible you couldn't recreate that we've tried since

we've tried since with Amor Ahid but you can't that was such a special moment and then we we took it into the changing room and back to the hotel

and the lads might have enjoyed that the night after but then believe it or not three days later we're playing Holland and Belgium in the

in the Nations League so we've got to get a squad together to go to go and play it was yeah but that's nonsense isn't it it was crazy it was crazy

I mean that is nonsense we were expected we were expected then to go and play against Holland and Belgium. Holland, Hormann away, and Belgium. So we still had three games to play after the Sunday. And again, of course, you know, COVID was rife. I think a couple of players might have got COVID after that game.

And ageing senior players then asking to go and play against Belgium and Holland away. It was incredible. It was incredible. It was incredible. But, you know, we managed to finish the camp off and then start planning and looking forward to the World Cup. I know you'll say it's not about you, but did you have a moment with your family

and just sit there and go, oh my God, I got Wales to a World Cup? Yeah, absolutely. Good. Absolutely. I did, yeah. I'm not ashamed to say that. No.

I once asked Andy Farrell whether after he won Man of Steel, whether he looked at himself in the mirror and went, Yeah, absolutely. Good. Absolutely. I did, yeah. I'm not ashamed to say that. No. Because it was... I once asked Andy Farrell whether after he won Man of Steel whether he looked at himself in the mirror and went, yeah, I'm the Man of Steel. And he looked at me like I was ridiculous. So I'm glad that one landed with you. Yeah.

And I think it says a lot about, you know, look, we done our squad announcement for the World Cup from the Welfare Hall, like a workman's club in the valleys. You know what I mean? A minor's Welfare Hall. USA done it from the Welfare Hall, like a workman's club in the valleys. You know what I mean? A minor's Welfare Hall. USA done it from the Empire State Building.

And I think that was a special moment for me as well because I used to play snooker in there as a 12, 13-year-old. So to take that back to Tylestown in the valleys was an incredible moment for me. And it was then that I went, do you know what? Yeah, this is some achievement. This is an incredible achievement but i i take that i also said about you know the work managers have done before me that had given us that opportunity i was the lucky one that managed

to get us across the line but the work speedo done to start with mark was incredible completely changed the mindset of how we go about our work how we train how we prep tactical side of it you o sut rydyn ni'n mynd am ein gwaith, sut rydyn ni'n hyfforddi, sut rydyn ni'n gynnal gydweithredaeth, y safle tactigol o hynny. Ac wedyn, wedyn, Chris wedi cyflawni, mae gennych rhai o'r gorau. A John Toshack, y chwaraewyr ifanc, y Balos o'r byd, a'r rhai a'i gynnal i mewn i'r sgwad, nid y Balos o'r byd, y Balos a Aaron a Joe. Ac wedyn, mae Chris wedi cael y fanteision o hynny yn 2016.

Ac wedyn, mae Ryan wedi cyflawni hynny ac wedi cyflawni ac wedi cymryd ni i lefel arall eto. Ac wedyn, mi wnaethon ni gyflawni hynny ac roeddwn i'n un o'r rhai ffodus yna i gael ni yno. that in 2016 and then Ryan inherited that and did and took us to another level again and then I inherited that and I was one of the lucky ones then to get us there but we've all played a part in it. And it will always be Gary's legacy? 100% rightly so. And you sense that even in 20 years from now the current Welsh manager whoever that will be will still be paying tribute to how Gary started it absolutely and rightly so

I played with Gary I was lucky enough to play he was my captain for Wales and I liken him to to Gareth to Bale because he was exactly the same

irrespective I played in the championship I wasn't one of the premiership players turning up on camp he was the same with me as what he was with Ryan with John Hartson

all these other lads playing in the premiership he was exactly the same we were all treated the same with me as what he was with Ryan, with John Hartson, all these other lads playing in the premiership. He was exactly the same. We were all treated the same. And I see a lot of leadership in Bale like that as well. He also probably didn't want you to clatter him. He was the one clattering people. You see him train, honestly. Some of the young players today, I wish we could get footage of him training.

And I've seen him injecting his little toe on his foot, you know, practically hanging off. And he's getting the physio to inject it just to strap him up to get him back out for the second half. He was an incredible person and leader. You know what I mean? In training, he trained as he played. It meant everything to him.

And I think, but he got the balance right. So when he walked off the pitch, he'd get the guitar out and he'd, I used to room next to him. He was, I was with Karl right so when he walked off the pitch he'd get the guitar out and he'd I used to room next to him he was I was with Karl Robbo and he was with Mark Pembridge and every afternoon he'd go in and play the guitar

so he got me into playing the guitar speedo as well but he got the balance right he knew when to have a little bit of downtime but when he trained watch out There are a lot of good emotions

that surround Wales so I go back to that Joe Allen fitness test that you were talking about ahead of Iran and your medical team and your physios and your sports science team going if he's not 100% after this you haven't got him. The human

side of you and everything that Joe Allen has done would go even if he's 75, 80 I want to give him a chance of playing at a World Cup. Absolutely. That's why he got on the team. Was that a real dilemma?

Would that have been a real dilemma for you? Yeah, I think I could have been a lot more ruthless. I could have been, but who was I to say to Gareth and Joe Allen and Aaron that, you know, we're brilliant, thanks for everything you've done for Welsh football and we've finally got to the dream land where you wanted to be, but I'm not going to start you every game. You're not going to play in the first game.

I'm not going to do that. I wasn't going to do that. So even though Joe Allen was probably, there was a 10% chance of him being fit before we got on that plane, I was taking him. I was always taking him to give him that, show him that respect,

what he'd done for Welsh football over the years so yeah there was no doubt for me Mark and I think you're right you have a moral dilemma

at the end of it but he would have gotten that pitch Mark he would have gotten that pitch Because he wanted to do the right thing You've got to get

the balance right yeah we wanted to win as many games as we could and it didn't go to plan of course it didn't and we come back with

disappointment I did personally you know that was hard for me to get over the World Cup and finally got there and I didn't think

we'd give a true reflection on the Welsh side that I'd seen against the Belgians of the world the Hollands of the world we give some immense performances against them top teams

and I think if we were to have been able to replicate some of those performances, certainly against USA, we were a lot better second half when we made the change. Iran and then England, you know, we completely changed the shape as well. Against England, we were quite brave. And up until halftime, we were doing all right. Five minutes into the second half, we'd all crumbled down.

But yeah, lessons learned from it, Mark, but a tough experience. Why didn't it go to plan well look we've had time to to reflect on it and um did we underestimate iran a little bit we want to get aaron on the pitch i before you sorry i was at that game in the stadium that was one of the most emotional 90 minutes of football that i think I've ever been at, actually, for a whole variety of reasons. You know, the state of or how women are dealt with in Iran, and yet there were so many women there in Iran shirts and celebrating. The crowd, obviously, were very pro-Iranian,

and they had a lot of travelling support. I thought the atmosphere was phenomenal. It did feel like a real wave of emotion that carried the Iranian team along. And they played well as well. They did. But I don't think unless you were in that stadium, you would have appreciated just that well of emotion that was there that afternoon.

Yeah, I agree. It was an emotional day. Speaking of college, the day before in the green room, as we'd impressed, we passed each other, so we had five minutes talking together, what they had to deal with that week, building up to it. And I'm not going to go into detail and share the story,

but it was incredible. So I can see how emotionally charged they were, the players and the squad and everybody coming into it. And perhaps we weren't quite ready for that. We're not using that as an excuse from a personal point of view. We might've got it wrong. We might've got it wrong that day. ac efallai nad oedden ni'n barod i wneud hynny. Nid oes gennym ni'n defnyddio hynny fel amgylch o safbwynt personol. Efallai y byddwn ni wedi gwneud yn anghywir. Yn ogystal, roeddwn ni wedi cymryd y tîm a oedd yn arfer ar y pitch honno, ac efallai nad oedd yn cymryd y cyd-dynion yr oedden ni'n eu chwarae.

Felly, gallem ni gael y cymorth yn y cyfnod ychydig mwy gan gael ddwy oes, ddwy oes i gael a ddwy oes i gael, i gael y cymorth a chyflawni bwyd arall, oherwydd maen nhw wedi chwarae o'r ffont front and their striker that day was the fastest thing on two legs I've ever seen. So we had to respect that. But yeah, it didn't work out for us. And that was a hard one to take again. Was that the game that did for you, do you think,

in that tournament, really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think USA, you always want to start a tournament with, you don't want to lose the first game in the tournament. So to get a point from the first game against USA, and like I said, we were pleased from the second half performance and then the couple of days after that you enjoy the first 24 hours after you go great we've got off to an okay start and please aspects that we need to address and and then again within 48 hours of post game then

you the nerves start again and you're anxious and you're planning then for the for the iran game and like I said that didn't then go to plan so that was hard then after that game that was hard we spent a lot of time

in the meeting rooms trying to work out and then we play in England so we've got to not only just pick ourselves up and again as a manager it can be a lonely place but you've got to be

the one to front it and get the coaches pick them up and the players and we wanted a finishing style and we changed it. Instead of a back three,

we went to a back four against England and yeah, first half, we didn't have a lot of the ball, of course we didn't. We knew we were going

to have to suffer without the ball and be disciplined in our shape and hopefully then catch them on a counter attack. First half was okay but within five minutes

of the second half with a couple of goals down then it's uncomfortable. Then you're like, oh God, I don't want this to be another three or four. It's fine margins, you know, within five minutes of the second half with a couple of goals down and then it's uncomfortable. Then you're like, oh God, I don't want this to be another three or four. It's fine margins,

you know, within five minutes you're then worrying about the scoreline. Is playing England different to playing anybody else as a home nation? Yeah, of course.

Yeah, there's always going to be that edge to it. You try to, you know, you try to manage it the same as any other game. Of course you do, but players understand.

Managing that is quite difficult Mark you know from the press's point of view as well because they can set the players up and I think that

happened while we were out there a couple of players were interviewed regarding it and there was certain comments that from some

of the players that were disappointed that we wouldn't necessarily if we'd have been in charge of it we

wouldn't have allowed that to happen but yeah there'll always be a little bit of you know rivalry on that

because they're home nations but from a tactical point of view and from a coaches point of view we try to strip the emotions again and treat it as any other game

which is now an impossible yeah I mean it has to be now an impossible because on the one hand you don't want to take the emotion

out of it do you but then you don't want to be down to eight after 20 minutes and that's the risk that's the risk you run you know and yeah you? But then you don't want to be down to eight after 20 minutes. And that's the risk you run. And yeah, you need calm heads.

You need calm heads when you're playing in a derby game like that. You can't, because you're right, you've won wrong tackle and you're down to nine, eight men before you know it. So it's managing, it's being calm in your approach. Did what happened at that World Cup and the manner of coming home, do you think that then cast a shadow over the rest of your time as Wales manager? I think so.

I think so, yeah. I think I had a lot to do to prove that I was the right person for the job, even though we got off to an unbelievable start in split against Croatia. To get an equalising goal in the 94th minute, whatever it was, and draw one all out there was incredible. And then, you know, we were unbeaten then. We didn't have a great June, Armenia, and that was another one.

So that's 2023 by then? So in March, when we played our first games back for the European qualifiers against Croatia to get the point and then come home and get the win June and done the good that I'd already ymgyrchol Ewropeaidd yn gyda Croecia i ddod i'r pwynt ac yna ddod i fyny a chael y gwerth yn ddiwrnod a wneud y gwaith yr oeddwn i wedi ei wneud yn farchnod. Felly, y llwyddiant yn gyda'r armenig ar ffwrdd, nid oedd rhywun yn ei anghymryd, nid oeddem ni'n cael unrhyw un o'r llwyddiant, rydym ni'n cael ein gwneud. Yna roedd gen i lawer o ffyrdd i'w adeiladu eto. Ond yna o'r brosiect i'r blaen roedd y rhai yn anhygoel ac roedden ni'n ddiweddar am y seison honno. Roedden ni yna, roeddem ni'n mynd a'i ddiweddar hyd at y llwyddiant yn gyda Pôl a'r penwadau. Felly nid oedd y rhai yn gwerthu'r hyn yr oedden ni'n ei wneud For that season, we were there and we went undefeated until the loss against Portland on penalties.

So not only did the lads appreciate what we were doing and where we were going, I think they showed that in my press conference where the staff turned up. I think the players come up publicly and spoke. Inside, we know what's happening. We can see the path that we're on. We can see the progression and how we're playing.

The players spoke out for you. And as you you say all your staff turned up at a press conference after the rumors that the chief exec of the Welsh Football Association had approached Roy Keane yeah so it's it was a bit of a circus but we trying to manage it and dampen down the noise was was all we were focused on we can't we can't you, control everything that goes on, Mark. So all I can control at that time was the changing room, the players. I didn't ask the staff to come and join me. I didn't ask the players to speak out.

They've done that on their own accord, which was really nice for me to see in here, of course. But what was important for me is staying focused on the job in hand and that's winning games of football. If you're winning games of football if you're winning games of football if they still want to change there's nothing did you know that

they may have been talking to other people did you have that was the first thing you saw was when you read it or heard it yeah nobody the first thing i think i come down to the the staff table for breakfast and i'm not on social media so one of the staff pulled me and went, I'm just giving you a nudge. There's an article that's gone out. And that was the first I knew about it. And do you even try and find out more? Do you find that? I can't worry about things like that.

I'm not on social media. I don't read it. People want to write what they want. I can only control what I can do and how I can conduct myself in life. And that's all I focused on. So I didn't... Did you feel let down by your bosses?

Nothing surprises you in football anymore, Matt. As you know, you've been in it long enough yourself and reported on it. Nothing surprises me in football. If people want to talk to the Matt, I can't help that. All I can... If I'm winning games of football, that'll take care of itself.

You know, my frustration was I had a four-year contract just before the World Cup. I could see where the lads are going. Look, we were in a transition and I got dogs abuse for saying this on social media, apparently. If I say the word transition one more time, but we are. We are a nation in transition. In June, before I got the sack, people like Lewis Koumas roeddwn i eisiau ei gyflawni i'r amgylchedd i edrych arno oherwydd ei bod yn y dyfodol roedden ni'n cael

llythyr yn ymgyrchu yn ymlaen yn ymlaen yn ymlaen i gynhwysio ar ein trwyddiad mawr cyfnodol felly i mi roeddwn ni i gyd yn anghyfforddol wrth gwrs roedden ni i gyd yn anghyfforddol nid yw unrhyw un yn fwy na mi yn gadael y stadion y nos honno pan gafom ni'n colli ar llythyr ond Of course we were. We were all disappointed. Nobody more so than me leaving that stadium that night when we lost on penalties. But I was still focused on the job in hand and I was quite pleased with the way we were going and the transition that we were going through. And so surprised more than anything because I thought we'd all bought into that plan. I thought we're all aligned with where we were going. But decisions are made and that's it. When you talk about having to prove yourself again, was that to your bosses or to the fans? Well, everybody really. Right. Everybody who would be questioning. So I've been in the game long enough to understand

there's going to be board, you know, hierarchy above. The supporters, of course, you know, they want success. They want to be in Germany in the summer. You know, we'd already been over, picked a hotel and training facilities. We were there. We were planning to be there. And, you know, you're not to see what happens with the penalties.

Won't be much comfort to the Welsh fans, but honestly, the public transport was a nightmare in Germany. So they probably did well to avoid that in certain places. Look, you mentioned Lewis Kumas there, actually. And I wonder how hard it is to judge the right time to bring the young players in. Ben Woodburn's a really good example, who burst onto the scene at Liverpool, didn't he?

Oh, the next big thing, et cetera. And obviously it hasn't quite panned out for him in that way there are such fine margins for these 17 18 year olds who understandably are going to get an earlier glimpse of international football because of your talent pool a Wales or a Scotland or a Northern Ireland yeah absolutely and you know you need relationships with coaches below you definitely because they're the ones who work with them i don't i don't i didn't know lewis as a as a character as a person so it is a gamble of course it is anything you any young lad that you bring up is a gamble but i'd like to say it's more of a calculated risk because i would have many conversations with our

youth coaches to find out what he's like as a personality as a character and having seen him beth mae'n ei fodlon fel personol, fel caredd. Ac wrth gwrs ei fod yn ei hyfforddi am y cychwyn cyntaf diwrnodau, roeddwn i'n gwybod bod ganddo bersonol. Ac mae ganddo gallu, mae ganddo llwyth o gallu. Ac rwyf wedi gweld beth mae wedi ei wneud o gwmpas i'r Cymru, ers bod Craig wedi chwarae, ac rwy'n rhoi ei ddebut yn y flwyddyn, mae'n mynd i gael dyfodol bryder. Ond weithiau mae'n risg ymgyrchol, ac rydych chi'n ei roi i mewn ac He's going to have a bright future. But sometimes it's a calculated risk, really, and you throw him in and you hope that he shows what he's capable of, you've been told about, if you know what I mean. Have you spoken to Craig?

No, no, I haven't. No, I haven't. Why not? Why would I need to speak to Craig? Well, if somebody takes over from you, do you not pass on the benefit of what you have learned to them? No, he knows where I am. If he wanted to give me a ring, I'm open.

Not a problem at all. I'm open to a conversation and help in any way. I only ask that partly because you talked about the people when you took over who passed on their knowledge to you. I think my circumstances were a little bit different, you know, because I inherited then Albert, who was Ryan's assistant. So it was more of a, it went a complete change, if you know what I mean. When Ryan left, Albert was the coach and all the back,

and the struts were still there and all the backroom staff, the medical team, the doctors. But this is a completely new. I think, as far as I'm aware, I think the medical team and all that will stay. Yeah.

But he'll have brought in his own staff, understandably. And I would have done exactly the same thing. So, I want what's best for Welsh football.

I'm a Welsh supporter myself. So, I'm absolutely open to a conversation if he wants to and help in any way by giving it, you know, if he wants to know anything about players that have been or not in the squad now, no problem at all. But I think he'll have all the information that he needs.

Are Welsh fans good to you? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've had some lovely messages since I've left. I've been back to Wales a couple of times and bumped into a few supporters. You've taken them to half of the major tournaments that they've been in in their history.

Absolutely, and I'm proud of that. I'm absolutely proud of that. I've had an incredible seven years, Mark, I had working for the association, and I've got a lot to thank them for. They've given me some of the best moments in my footballing career, without doubt. Mae gen i ddiddordeb iawn. Ychydig mlynedd yn ystod y cyd, yn gweithio ar gyfer y cydweithredaeth, ac mae gen i lawer i ddiolch iddyn nhw am hynny. Mae wedi rhoi rhai o'r fomentau gorau i mi mewn fy ngyrfa oeddfeyddiaeth. Yn ddewis, fe wnes i fy ngyrfa oedd yn arweinydd o'r U21. Roedd y tîm o'r U21 yn DJ, roedd gennym Joe Roden.

Fe wnes i Chris Meppermann i fynd i mewn i meps ac fe wnes i fynd i Toulon. Mae meps wedi bod yn ddiddordeb iawn i mi dros y blynyddoedd. Roedd Joe Roden yn ymwneud â mi and people like Joe Morrell Joe Morrell was one of the ones that I said to Ryan look he's an absolute footballer it's funny isn't it he couldn't get in Newton's team

in the championship but then you pick him for Wales at international level and he'd shine he was arguably the best player on the pitch because he's an absolute

footballer Joe Morrell but in a championship where there's a bit more blood and thunder and you know second balls and he didn't quite suit that. So I've had an incredible

seven years there and then to get promoted up with the first team of Ryan and then to become the manager, yeah, it's what dreams are made of, absolutely. And I'm looking forward now to my next challenge.

Which is what? I don't know yet. What would you like it to be? Do you know what, Mark? I'm quite open i'm quite i loved international football it suited i loved it i did i'm not gonna lie but if there's an opportunity to go back into the domestic game and it's the right opportunity that fits for both parties then i'd absolutely consider it what does that what does a right opportunity look like

for you if you're looking for, say, a club management job, what are the most important things you need for you to work to the best of your ability? Trust, honesty, alignment throughout, from the board all the way down to the management. I think that's got to be key so that we're all on the same page and we all understand where the club wants to be. Has the club got an identity? Am I suited to go into that with regards to, allan i ni i gyd yn yr un page ac rydym ni i gyd yn deall ble mae'r clwb eisiau bod. A oes y clwb wedi cael ei ddidentitâd? A ydw i'n ymwneud â hynny? A ydym yn ymwneud â hynny

o ran stil chwarae, recriwtio? Mae'n bwysig. Mae'r holl elfennau allweddol o rhedeg clwb chwarae yn allweddol. Mae'n rhaid i chi fod yn ymwneud â'r peth, oherwydd os mae'r rheolwr yn cael sylw gwahanol i'r Cyfarwyddwr Decynol, byddai'n heriol. Ond i mi, yn onest, ac fel y dywedais, rwy'n cael ymwneud â'r b for me, honesty and, like I said, I'm in alignment from the board to the owner to the chairman all the way down through myself. And club football would excite you again. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I'm open. International, abroad, I would. I've had a taste of it now. International football, and I love the challenges that it brings, the different players that you get to play against. I've been so lucky, Mark, to play against some of the best teams in Europe,

in European football and world football. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the challenges through the week and going up against some of the best coaches. And I have been lucky with that. But yeah, do you know what you miss? You miss the day in, day out. You do miss the day in, day out,

being around that group of players and creating that environment that we had with Wills. Well, I was talking to Steve Bruce not very long ago, who has obviously gone back in at Blackpool when everybody thought he might be retired. And the joy in his voice that Saturday afternoon, I spoke to him before managing again, Blackpool for the first time was palpable, really.

And the other thing that I thought was quite interesting for Steve Bruce is that Blackpool fan base have welcomed him. was palpable really and the other thing that i thought was quite interesting for steve bruce is that blackpool fan base have welcomed him and he's made to feel wanted having been in jobs recently yeah and i find that a really interesting thing with managers now that fan base perception and whether they take to you and how much the image matters and so on and so forth would that also play into your thinking you've got to be happy you've got to want to turn up for work and know that everybody's bought into to who you are and how you work absolutely he's got a wealth of experience and he's had an unbelievable career yes he'll have had some disappointing moments in

his career of course he would have we all have and it's how you bounce back. And he's found a fit. He's found a club at this moment in time that fully supporting him as a person and as a coach. That's what you want, isn't it? You want the majority of a fan base when you get your next club management job. Yes, we've got Rob Page. Yeah, of course. Yeah, and they're on board straight away.

And then you work together. Because it is about that. Graham Taylor taught me that. He was one of the best. I was at Watford on Saturday and his name comes up all the time with Alec Chamberlain

and Nick Wright. We went to the game together on Saturday and watched them beat Sunderland and we talked about GT and the influence he's had on all three of us, you know,

and for me, he wanted the players to go out in the community. He wanted the players to be a part of the community. We're all one, the supporters and I think that's how we got so much respect there as well. players to be a part of the community. We're all one, the supporters. And I think that's how he got so much respect there as well.

You've got to win games of football. It's not just, but it's an element of it. It's a part of it. That football club has to be united. And when they bring a manager in, you've got to buy into that. I can't think of anybody actually more maligned who when you then met him and knew him,

your heart broke actually for what he went through. Yeah, absolutely. Even now thinking back, thinking about him and what a lovely and wonderful man he was to work with. And obviously you knew him through the Watford connection. And yet you talk to him about what he went through and you just think nobody deserves that. No, they don't.

Of course they don't. He's a human being at the end of the day take football away he's a human being nobody deserves to be spoken to like that and that's where social media for me

it's a coward's way isn't it it's anybody can say what they want behind the screen and people have opinions and fine you can have your opinions

but be respectful be respectful as a human being and a wonderful guy honestly not just as a coach and some of the detail he was talking about

20, 30 years ago was incredible, Mark. Honestly, there's people now getting, it's one job for a person today in football that's getting paid fortunes to do it. And he donned many hats. He was a psychologist. He was a coach. He was a manager.

He was a fitness coach. But he knew when the right time was to get you off grass so we could have a defeat on the Saturday. And Monday morning, you go into training, expecting to work hard, because one thing you did with GT the right time was to get you off grass so we could have a defeat on the saturday and monday morning you go into training uh expecting to work hard because one thing you did with gt was you you worked hard tuesdays were horrendous and um you go in monday and you go right okay uh get your kit on and i want five volunteers so we'll be looking at each other going what the hell's he

up to now what we're doing now and you'd drive around the Harlequin Centre in Watford and then you'd end up on the A41 parking in a labour or a country car park and he'd go, right, leave your cars, follow me. And you'd walk for an hour and a half and you'd end up in a country pub and he'd already pre-booked lunch. And so then you'd sit

and you'd have a conversation together as friends, not football. He wouldn't talk football. He'd just, hey, how's things? How's life? And what's happening and then he'd say after it

right that's it see you tomorrow ready to work hard tomorrow and I thought do you know what that was brilliant that was brilliant Saturday was forgotten about

and we were never going to disappoint him again because he's just shown us that respect he's taken us out for lunch and we've had a nice chilling day just enjoyed each other's company

Tuesday we worked our socks off day off Wednesday. And then two consecutive promotions we had with him. And man management, I saw his man management was key. And again, I've taken a big part. We spoke at the start of the podcast about Baelor, my relationship with Gareth, and man management to that was key. And I take a lot of that from GT, definitely.

One final question. Because you've managed Wales are you going to be linked with vacancies at Welsh clubs? I think it's the natural thing Mark isn't it?

I think it is and like I said I'm open to any conversation I'm open to any opportunities but it has to be a right for all parties.