Football Daily - MNC: Are Arsenal 'bottling' it & will Spurs survive?

Episode Date: April 13, 2026

Steve Crossman hosts this week's Monday Night Club alongside Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Nedum Onuoha.With a game in hand and six points to make up, can Manchester City catch Arsenal? The team discuss the role that mentality plays in a title race, how fan nervousness might be affecting Arsenal on the pitch, and what Arteta's side seem to be lacking from open-play. Is it fair to say Arsenal are 'bottling' it? On the other hand, a free-flowing Manchester City are relishing the chase, and with Arsenal visiting the Etihad this Sunday, could that result prove to be a decider?Then, the panel react to Spurs losing their first match under new head coach, Roberto De Zerbi. With Tottenham now in the relegation zone for the first time since 2015, and two points from safety, can "big brother" De Zerbi save the club?Timecodes: 01:12 Is it fair to say that Arsenal are 'bottling' it? 12:13 Do Arsenal really have a style-of-play problem? 20:24 Arsenal a "masterpiece of coaching", but is it time now for psychology? 28:17 Are the fans affecting the players, & should they have booed the team off? 37:07 A first loss for "big brother" De Zerbi as Spurs manager; can he save them?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Welcome to the interface, the show that decodes the tech that's rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, we'll look at the way that algorithms could change how much you're paying for your groceries, how even astronauts have issues with Microsoft Outlook, and whether the next trend in tech is less tech. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Nightclub with Steve Crossman on the Football Daily podcast. Hello, welcome to the Monday Nightclub on the Football Daily podcast. Loads to get into.

We'll do a big breakdown of the title race. Manchester City going six points behind Arsenal with a game in hand, with Arsenal visiting the Etihad live on 5 Live on Sunday. We'll talk spurs. Roberto Deserby losing his first match in charge. They are in the relegation zone and they're two points from safety. All of that on the way in the company of Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Nader Manu. Hello, everybody.

Hiya. Hiya. You're right. Unsurprisingly, we will start with the Premier League title race. So Arsenal's lead at the top is six now. They're lost at home to Bournemouth, Manchester City, thumped Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. So six points, but City obviously have a game in hand

and they face each other at the Etty had live on 5 live at 4.30 on Sunday. We thought we would talk a bit, Rory, about the notion of bottling it. Because it's come up a lot. as a phrase. Is it always disrespectful and is it unfair? And if so, is there a better adjective to use for what's happening at Arsenal? I think over the last three years, Arsenal have been unfairly accused of bottling various things at various times. The first season that they finished second, they were very much on the up. They were a young team coming together. They went close. They fell short.

That's fair enough. The second season, I think you can maybe make the case that they, they had the chance and didn't take it, which I suppose in some harsh lights might be, might be the B word, but also you're dealing with a Man City team that was about to win its fourth straight title. You have to kind of take the quality of the opposition into account. Last year, I don't think they bottled anything

because they didn't lose that title. Liverpool won it, and those are different things. This year, it will, obviously, you know, there's still six games to play. It all depends. It's been a significant few weeks in terms of shifting momentum in the title race. But I think what you can definitely accuse Arsenal of this season, not just on Saturday,

but they have had quite a few opportunities to put daylight between themselves and Man City, and they have taken none of them. And that's why they're now in a position where, having led the Premier League for six months, more or less, having looked like nailed on champions most of that time, they go to City on Sunday, and if they lose, it will feel very much like it's Man City's title to lose. So is there a way to express all of that in a sentence then, Chris? because there is part of me that thinks that because of the culture that we live in now where everything is either amazing or awful,

if Arsenal win at Manchester City, there will be mentality monsters or whatever, and they've found a way. And if they lose, then they are inverted, commas, bottling it. Like, a team's never as good and never as bad as we think or what? I think so. And I think, you know, you're bang on with that, you know, that assumption. You know, next week if Arsenal get anything.

sort of result will be, we'll be praising them to the hilt. You know, we will be, I don't think they're bottling. I think that anybody can lose to Manchester City, as Arsenal did in the League Cup final. Did Arsenal perform well? No. It was Arsenal reserves who lost to Southampton. And losing to Bournemouth, Bournemouth are a good team. I mean, they are.

It was more than the manner in which Arsenal lost, I think, which would worry. the Arsenal fans and I think the Arsenal fan base are, you know, a very nervy. That's, you know, that's not helping. But I'd still rather be in Arsenal's position

than Manchester City's position. I think they just feel, you know, I think that they feel like they're a club because of recent results where from the outside, I think they look like they're burdened as such.

But that can all change. And, you know, they're still, look at the position they're in. I mean, they're won up against sporting Lisbon in the Champions League. So, you know, close to a Champions League semi-final. And then the opportunity to go to Manchester City, which they're well capable of and getting some sort of result, that's a possibility. And, but, you know, because of Manchester City, the nature of their recent performances, I mean, let's get it right.

They beat a bang average Liverpool team who sort of everybody, other than Fullham at the weekend have been doing pretty well against. And Chelsea, you know, they beat Chelsea well, actually. And I suppose that would be, that would be the worry Arsenal fans watching that game thinking, blimey, look at their front players, look at the way it's sort of Cherkies playing. Look at, you know, look at, look at Semeno, Docu. I mean, Doku, Harland hasn't, you know, maybe sort of hit the heights, which you did earlier on in the season.

But that would be the worry. But they've just got to keep the composure. It's all about mindset, I think, for Arsenal. Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think in regards to the idea of bossing it, I think that's based on the last few years and what the expectations were for them to be leading from the front. And then in some ways, in years gone by,

to say draw too many games or lose games that they shouldn't be losing. But I think this last run of games has been interesting from an Arsenal perspective because we're talking about it across three different competitions. You know, they lost in the League Cup final. They lost in the FA Cup. There's lost one league game. The last league loss was against Man United in January.

So the momentum that they have Like in the league itself Isn't as bad as it feels Based on some of those more recent results So for them, the league is still very much in their hands I think Artetta is somebody that But I think I'm with you Chris in some ways It's the nature of some of the performances

Not necessarily the results And that goes beyond some of those Like drop points Like even in some of the wins It's been a bit uncertain You know the draw that they had with walls For example That's not something we thought they'd be doing

And I think for me what really matters at this moment is like how does the team feel do they feel good? Do they feel like it's just a blip or did they feel like something's happening which they're starting to doubt themselves and I think maybe you'd agree with this Chris

but the moment as the moment a player or a team has doubt themselves the teams they're playing against gain more belief and as a consequence they almost play them in a different manner whereas start the year it felt like once Arsenal went one nil up the game was done whereas now certain teams are sort of playing

in a different manner but the players that Arsenal have are good enough to get through this spell. They're good enough to be able to go to the Atiata at the weekend and get a positive result for themselves. But I think the difference now, which is basically on its head based on previous seasons, City aren't playing Champions League midweek, Arsenal are? You know, Arsenal have got that thing to look to deal with before they can even look ahead to the next game.

Whereas for City, they're planning for that game right now. And that, I think, in some ways, is an advantage. Chris said last week that he didn't think the defeats to to City and particularly Southampton would try to be playing on the Arsenal player's mind. And I will always bow to Chris Sutton on these matters because he has been there and I have not.

Chris, do you still think that's true? Do you think that they'll be able to shake off losing to Bournemouth? I think with every passing defeat, you know, just trying to put myself in an Arsenal player's position and you know,

we're going to talk about Bournemouth and gives them a lot of praise. You know, in the next 20 minutes, whatever. Bournemouth are a really capable team. I think that Arsenal, in sort of recent weeks, certainly in the final third, they have looked a little bit clunky where it's not been free-flowing. And I know there's been a lot made of,

and some of it tongue-in-cheek about, you know, the way that they've played and relying on long throws and set plays. I just wonder whether that sort of, you know, them finding a way to get over the line, whether that sort of has been in the Arsenal players' minds. But there is something missing in the final third.

I mean, they could do with a sacker coming back. You know, I think he's a key player. We forget he was missing at the weekends. I think, you know, Martinelli hasn't been sort of, you know, in top form this season. Madiueque wasn't great at the weekend. Yockerez is, I think Yockeres has done all right. But, yeah, I think the final third would be the worry,

certainly from open play. And that's the difference at this moment in time between Arsenal and Sydney. I still think Arsenal are strong defensively. I mean, they're missing timber at the back. Ben White is coming in and doing okay. Lewis Skelly played at the weekend. And, you know, he has, I think, maybe his second start in the Premier League.

So I think it's just about, Nedham's been there as well, it's just about holding your nerve, thinking about when you get everybody back, we're a good team. You can't start doubting yourself. I'm not so sure that Arsenal are doubting themselves. The one thing which I think they've got to steer clear from,

I mean, they have some daft gimmicky things, don't they, at the training ground? I mean, they just become a bit of a laughing stock. the thing with the thing with the pens and did you see the TikTok video things? I mean, that's just, I mean, what are they doing? Well, why bring that into the public domain? They just look foolish.

Aren't there two different things, though? The TikTok video is something that they were using to try and build a bit of a vibe or something before the game, whereas the other side of it is just Artetta. I'd love to get Nettem's opinion on that, you know, as a former player. I mean, that is so good. You've never balanced pen.

No, but if you have balanced pens, you've done it away from a camera so nobody can see how what you're doing might be construed. And I think for those players, like, in fairness to them, they're being good sports about everything that they're doing at the club. And it's brought them to this point where they could potentially win a league title. But there are loads of them that are thinking this is ridiculous. Pickpockets. Loads of people thinking this is ridiculous.

Dog called win. Listen, a gimmick is only ever a problem if your team's not winning games. Sounds of Anfield on the speakers. if they win the title or if they'd won like three titles in a row then literally every club in Britain would have a dog there's no question about that yeah it's

but the answer the answer Nadim surely is results isn't it that's the difference all the things we're talking about if Liam Rossini did them at Chelsea he would be getting hammered for like 100% listen Liam Rossini unfortunately for him has been getting hammered

from the get-go based on some of the things which he said and I think some of that comes through our like generally I'm saying our like the collective subconscious bias possibly against him being in that role, whether that's fair or not. Because there have been other managers who've said more ridiculous things across many years who haven't received the same critique, provided their team has been winning.

People believe that they deserve to be in that position, if you know what I mean? Yeah. But yeah, the stuff that Artetta does and the way that they run that space, that's very unique to them. And those players know it, understand it, and they play into it, they do it. And when things are great, the atmosphere is great.

Like, when things are good at Arsenal, the energy around them from their fans and, like, the players, it's like a united front. But when it's not going so on, everyone's like pointing fingers saying, look, you're doing this pencil stuff, it's ridiculous and so on and so forth. I think that's just, for me, it's part and parcel of the game. But overall, I've got to say, by the way, this stuff that Arsenal are just about going through now,

it's a reminder of how tough it is to actually win a Premier League title. You know, if there's anyone on the show that maybe has done it, I don't know, but it's a reminder of, like, how tough it actually is, because for so many, at times, we just assume it's the easiest thing in the world. You've got good players, just go and win games. But these times of the year, this time of the year now, when you get in towards March, April time, little slip-ups can have huge consequences.

And we've seen that varsal in the past. We've seen times in years gone by where like Liverpool drops and points and all of a sudden they lose a title on like 95 points. It's a very, very tough thing to do. And I think for this Arsenal team, if they get through this spell and they do manage to win it, you know, they remember these tough times

probably more so than the greater times because they feel they deserved it. I think the style of play is interesting to me as well because Arsenal don't look like they're playing well. And I think that does feed into this narrative. that they've kind of, clunky, I can't remember whether it's Chris or Nadom said clunky, but they do feel like they're kind of grinding through the gears.

It's all a little bit, everything's quite tough, but nothing's coming smooth and easy. And I think when people are watching them, you look at them playing like that, and you do think this looks like a team that is struggling to cope with that pressure that Nadam's talking about, that it's starting to burden them.

But I don't know how different that is to the way Arsenal played for most of the season, to be honest, Arsenal have never been at this season. have never been a particularly kind of thrilling attacking force. They're not really built to do that. They are built to kind of beat everybody 2-0, which is a completely legitimate way to try and win the league.

But I guess the problem is if you're a team that's built to play certain margins, who are trying to exploit certain margins, which is, again, totally legitimate, once those margins become a bit finer, you're turning every game into a bit of a toss of the coin. And it feels like, you know, there's a world in which, Arsenal nicked that to 1 on Saturday and we're not having this conversation because maybe Alex Scott balloons is shot

and maybe a corner gets drilled in an inch lower and someone's head meets it and they score. They're not imposing themselves on games and they haven't been, to be perfectly honest, for a little while. And as much as their recent form, there's no real difference between their form and City's form, I think, over the last six games,

City have taken one more point than Arsenal and that they're the team with all this momentum, all this freedom and Arsenal are choking. Realist, that's not what's really happening, but I think the look of it is, Siti is suddenly, you know, Cherkies playing these lovely passes, have you seen the tricks he's doing, Harlan's got a couple of goals again,

Semenio's informed, docu's scoring. And it feels like they've got all this kind of wondrous belief about them, and Arsenal are kind of in their own heads. But I think a lot of that is because of the way that the two teams are set up to play. One is inherently a bit more cautious than the other. And you guys in the media. You guys and the media.

I know. We're the worst. Us guys. Is it? No, Chris, despite the fact that Chris has, I think, works for about seven different platforms. Chris does not count as the media apparently. It's separate. Just to put something to perspective, by the way.

Because I think there's some narrative points that we all get dragged into, which I think at times can be unfair. I just had a quick look at the table. And this is a stats moment. So I apologize to anyone that's not really interested in this. Expecting goals for the season. Arsenal ranks second in the league. yeah, only behind Chelsea. But the difference is Arsenal's expected goals for the season is like 63.9,

this is on understat. But they've only scored 62 goals. So even though it feels like they're quite clunky and not being creative and so on, they're still the second best in terms of opportunity essentially throughout this entire season. So the way we feel about them and how we watch them doesn't actually represent the reality of who they are because the team that's in third behind them is City.

And I think they're a couple, goals behind XGYS. So the two teams are very, very similar, but Arsenal very deserving of being in the position that they're in. I'm starting to come round to expected goals. Listen, man, in any individual game, you could have an argument across the whole season. Teams will fall in line to where that puts them.

Rory, did you start your book on expected goals by saying, I'm sorry if anyone isn't interested in expected goals? Weirdly, kind of. Did you? Yeah, a little bit. Not quite as blunt as Nadine. But yeah, you have to put the disclaimer in. Yeah.

Sorry, just one final point on this, I apologise. For all those that are still not having it, like the bottom teams for expected goals throughout the entire season, Wolves, Burnley, Sunderland, Tottenham, Forest and West Ham. So, you know what I mean? There's something to it. Can we just talk a bit, Chris,

about that feeling that Arsenal players will be having? Because I think we can, I know football changes and all that, but I think we can draw a pretty strong comparison between your own experience at Blackburn here. I don't know about the football changes stuff. Okay. Steve, which you're sounding like Rory Smith there.

No, no, I thought I was... It was the Premier League era when Blackburn Rovers won the time. Oh, was that compliment or insult to Rory Smith then? It was very much an insult to hold around. It was definitely an insult. It was a different game back then. Well, I tell you what the Premier League wasn't back then. It wasn't relying on long throws

and set plays for teams to win, there was, you know, actual football played. I'm just used to asking you to compare something from your time and then you shooting me down and saying it's incomparable. It's just the way you said it, football changes. I mean, it sounded, you know, like different, you know, from the 1500s when back the Rose. Chris, you were playing in hobnail boots.

It's fine. When it was just a pig's bladder, what was it? I think on. On a serious note, I do think it's quite interesting because with my experience, because at Blackburn, we did start to wilt. Yeah. And I think there was doubt which kicked him. We weren't really, there wasn't a player in the team who had won a Premier League.

And we were quite a young team at Blackburn. You know, there wasn't, I think Tony Gale would be the only one over 30. most of the players would be sort of the lower mid-20s. So I suppose, you know, the, you know, that comparison, it went to the last day and Manchester United, had they beaten West Ham, would have won the league. We slipped up against Liverpool at, at, at, at Enfield. But I suppose, and I was thinking about this today, the fact that, you know, Arsenal have players who haven't been there and done it, and Sydney, don't know how many city players. I mean, Bernardo Silver, certainly, Harland.

I mean, there aren't as, how many city players would have been there and done it? A fair few anyway. I think that experience would certainly help Manchester City and the fact that Pepp has been there and done it. And he's playing, I think, chucking out sort of mind games, you know, saying Arsenal are the best team. He's just trying to take the pressure off city and pilot on Artetta. So I do think that that doubt, the longer this goes, and certainly at the weekend, it's a monumental game, that if Arsenal don't get over the line, that is when their nerve will be severely tested.

We got over the line. We were nine points clear six games to go, something like that. So we had a massive drop off. We even lost Manchester City who were in the relegation zone at home a few games to go. And you could imagine the panic setting in there. But we actually had an experience manager in Kemp. Kenny Darglish, who had been there and done it and was a calming influence. And this is going to be a real test for Mikhail Artetta, isn't he?

Because he's still in relative terms. No, I'm not saying that. But the fact he's won an FA Cup. And he's obviously an outstanding coach. And the way Arsenal have done it this season, in many ways, you have to take your hat off to him. Because, you know, he hasn't tried to try to go. toe to toe with Manchester City in the way that Pep's team have evolved. He's gone down

a more basic and blunt route and it's worked up until now. But, you know, on the face of it, he has to show that composure and that belief in the players, you know, he certainly, he certainly can't get, shouldn't be getting rattled and wilting. But this is going to be a

massive test for our test. Because You know, we all know the implications if Arsenal don't win it. There will be doubters about whether Artetta should stay on. And, you know, rightly or wrongly, that will happen. Did you have a call on 606, Chris, saying that they should sack? They should sack Arthetta now and get someone else in. I mean, yeah, in fairness, we're used to getting some wild calls. But that was one.

It's quite interesting that, actually. I think, yeah, the idea that Artetta, that Arsenal should think about replacing Artetta, even if they do finish second, which obviously we don't know, we don't know if they will. Oh, well, 606, Rory. We need to take that with a pinch of salt, yeah. A little bit, but, I mean, I think, I don't think any,

there would be any serious doubts over Artetta's position, like in terms of whether Arsenal would sack him, that he might think that he doesn't need the stress, I guess, but I think he'd go again, he's still young. If you speak to other coaches, they love Arsenal around Europe because they are so well, they're a real coaches team.

Like I think they are a genuine masterpiece of coaching. They're not great to watch, but they are a masterpiece of coaching. I think the way that they're organized, the way they're set up, other managers really, really admire them. But I wonder now at this stage of the season,

how much it does come down less the kind of tactical discipline and strategic thinking and more to do with psychology. There's a brilliant start in the Times this morning from Alison Rudd that Gwadiola has played 32 games in April in the primary.

your lead and won 29 of them. Whereas Artetta's win ratio drops through the season, which I think is probably natural than everyone's does, but it goes down to about, I think it's about 41% in April. I've got it in April here, Chris, yeah. So Guardiola's won 30 from 38, that's 79% in April. Artetta's won 11 from 25, that's 44%. Interesting.

I thought that was the kind of stat you wouldn't be massively keen on. Me? Yeah. I think it's interesting that Guadiola, I mean, I do love a percentage. It's a nice, I like a percentage. No, it's not the whole story, but it does kind of suggest something about Guadiola's ability to build to a crescendo. That's interesting, yeah. And it would suggest that Artetta and Arsenal, and look, it's different.

You have to remember the context as well, that Artetta, for most of his Arsenal career, has not been dealing with, he's not been in charge of the dominant force in English football. Guadiolla has. Arteta, as much as Arsenal costs an awful lot of money to put together, Gwadiola bought James Trafford this season, decided that there was a better goalkeeper out there, so just went and bought him anyway. In January, they went and bought the two best players available on the market, basically at whatever price they wanted. They have resources that even Arsenal, who are one of the seven or eight richest clubs in the world, that even Arsenal don't have. So it's not quite a fair fight, but it does suggest that Guadiola is better in what Nadem as a, you know, a semi-American man would call the clutch.

I can't own that in 2026. I can't own that right now. No, I'm not semi-American. That's not, now's not the time for that. What just happened there is Rory wanted to say the clutch, but decided he wanted to put it on your shoulder. Yeah, thanks for that, Roy. It's the sort of Americanism I associate with Nadam.

But yeah, Gwadiola in these like really high-pressure moments, is really good at them. And maybe less so in the Champions League where he tends to ever think it. but Artetta hasn't yet proved it and that is probably quite significant given how tight it now is. He tends to overthinking in the Champions League. I'm with you. I'm with you on that.

Nah. I would say, so why would he be different then? I don't know. That question I cannot answer but there have been a lot of Champions League games where Pep Gordiola has done something where you think that's odd.

Isn't it the difference between a one-off game in a knockout versus a string of three or four games consecutively in the Premier League? Well, I mean, you're going to ask me there was definitely one big Champions League game where he kind of inexplicably dropped Fernandino.

That's one. He's going about the final. It was the final. Just to remind everyone of that game, Elkhai Gundwin, in the sixth was not the problem for Mount City. Listen, I'm not giving you a bit of, I'm just putting context to...

No, but I'm just saying that's an historical thing where the further that goes away, that's the only thing that most city fans remember. Right. Even though within the game it wasn't a factor because in that game

what I remember is Ries James and Ben Chilwell having probably two of the best performances I've seen against Riyadh-Maris and Rahim Sterling. Remember the back three being brilliant for Chelsea,

the front three working really well for Chelsea working hard. That's why I'm like, I'm one of those people I cannot sell my stock in Havert because I've watched him scored the winner

in the Champions League final from back then with Chelsea. Ditto Mason Mount. Yeah, literally. You know what I'm trying to me, it's tracts to my head. But yeah, I know what you're trying to say, Rory,

but one thing I would say this season, especially doing the Champions League show with you, when Lewis and Rika did an interview, I think it's like a month ago, this is similar to like Guardiola, and I think these coaches can sort of put something in their players and the belief is this. Lewis and Riquet said,

and PSG have been very indifferent this season, relatively speaking, they were second in the league for long periods, but it said, now is March, this is the time of the season we get excited for. This is the best part of the season. So whereas other teams at times who are trying to do it for the first time feel anxiety or the teams through the belief of their managers

and the way they set them up and so on they love playing with that extra pressure. I'm sure Lewis and Riquet, Guardioles and others would probably just like forego all that first bit of the season do you know where like oh this is good, this is bad all these overreactions. To get to the business end of the season knowing that it's the chase for perfection results-wise

and if you do manage to do this you get the chance to live titles and I think when they can get that into their play it becomes better as opposed to a manager. I'm not saying this is what Artetta is. But it's almost like from the outside at least, it looks like he's firefighting instead of telling the players how exciting it is to be involved in what is an incredible opportunity to win a title. In a literal sense as well.

Like he looks like he's firefighting sometimes on the touchline. Yeah, yeah, he does. But the touchline stuff, it's 90 minutes of antics, isn't it? I think how they are behind the scenes is more important to me personally. This is very much a kind of outsidery football view, but it strikes me as logical that it would be much harder for a team that has not won a title in this case for 21 years to win a title in a nip and tuck race

than it is for a team who have won six of the last eight, I think. You know, the city have, city are not playing with that historical pressure. They know, those players know that if they fall short this year, they'll be back again. They know that most of them, Chris is right, there's been a lot of churning that squad, so Semenio, Gae, there's very,

others that have never won a lead title. But there's also Ruben Diaz and John Stones and there's all these people around who've won loads. They're not playing, they're playing with a comfort and a confidence as they have been exposed to this pressure before. So that has built up their resistance to it. They know what it's like to get over the line.

So they will be going in, I think the mindset must be slightly different of, I remember this from last year or from two years ago or whatever it might be. Whereas all Arsenal will see is, if we don't get it this time, it's another year gone by, we're all another year older.

They will get stronger. it's 22 years instead of 21. I think that must have a... The type of pressure those two teams are under is different. I think that point itself is like a perfectly valid one. But then there are players who are playing for Arsenal who've only been there this season. There are players for Arsenal

who haven't been tracking the club for the last 21 years. And I always used to find this when, for example, it would be like a tournament in England playing against Germany. And someone says, oh, England haven't beaten Germany in 30 years. And you're saying that to like 21-year-olds? Like, why does it matter to them?

All they're doing is trying to achieve the goal that's in front of them. So I understand Arsenal's history from that standpoint. But as Zubimendi, for example, walks out at the Etiad on the weekend. He's not thinking about, like, the Invincible seasons in 2004. But the fans are? But what's that got to do with the performance on the pitch from the players? Which is a good question.

But isn't the point there, and this has kind of been discussed a little bit, that may be how the Emirates is feeling and sounding, there could be a bit of a vicious circle going on between that and what they're seeing on the pitch? I'll be honest with you. So I retired in 2020 since then, from 21 to this point, I've been covering media and I've been lucky enough to see my team, Man City, win four titles. And I've been to the Etihad Stadium in the back half of the season

and there's just as much anxiety in that stadium when a game is at nil-nil as you'll find anywhere else in the country. So after a result, we almost look back and say, oh, it was comfortable, it was this, it was that. I've seen City played really well and fans be really anxious because they know that at this time of year, one slip, one mistake, one red card, one mischance could completely destroy your team

like hopes for the season so the city fans even though they've been very fortunate to see all those wins they're not sitting comfortably thinking everything is great this is definitely going to work out but they do feel like that when it gets to the end and almost like in some ways rewrite the history of that moment I agree with that

but I would also say and Rory said earlier that you were talking about Artetta and next season and you think that he'll be back from the club hierarchy but I do think he has a problem if he doesn't go over the line in the Premier League or the Champions League. I think it changes the landscape in the way that Arsenal fans will view him because he's been there long enough. And I think you can imagine Arsenal fans at the start of the next season

if they don't win a league title or the Champions League, and things don't go well at the start of the next season, they will be on him. You know, where at the start of every other season, I think they would have cut him some slack, they would have backed him. But because of the nature, and the optics of whether we like it or not or whether we believe it or not and I don't think we do.

I don't think Arsenal have bottled it. I just, you know, if they do end up losing, I just think Siddea are a good side. We've talked about all the reasons why Citre are a good side and can reel them in because of Pepsi experience that were players in there who have been there and done it and they have that quality. But the Arsenal fans will view it differently.

And if he doesn't have the support of the Arsenal fans, then that's when a decision will be. will need to be made. So I do think it's make or break for him in terms of they have to win either Premier League or Champions League or I think he'll be a goner. I thought it was interesting and slightly weird that they booed them off the pitch, which hints at what Chris is talking about. My guess would be that whether they win the title or the Champions League or not,

Artetta probably can't play this way next season. I think the fans' patience for it is not limitless. as much as Arsenal fans if they just, please don't clip this up for socials. If it does get clipped up for socials, I will get shouted at by lots of Arsenal fans who will say, no, no, no, it's nonsense, it's an agenda, everyone hates Arsenal.

They are not an especially beautiful team and that does not matter. If you win the title, nobody cares. It's justified. I think most of those fans at the Emirates understand that they have seen much better football than that, from Arsenal teams relatively recently

and from Mikhail Ateta's Arsenal teams. and that they have become a very kind of deliberate programmed formatted team. And I'm pretty sure that if it doesn't, if they win the title, that's fine. Everything's justified. If they don't, I think there will be an expectation that he will maybe allow them to be a bit more expansive next season. Does at some point you have to, you can win and bore a team, but if you don't, sorry, you can win and bore fans, but if you don't bore the fans, you have to win, that's kind of the deal. I have a question on that actually, Chris.

The notion of being booed off because I think every team gets booed off. Why are you coming to me? Why are you coming to me on this? You're the most natural booer. You've tried to boo me off already twice tonight. No, I think every team gets booed off. The number of times I hear somebody say,

oh, as if those fans are booing them off after they've done X, Y and Z this season, I do think that is just a natural thing. Like I hear what Rory is saying, but I think there is an argument that if Arsenal had played really well, or if Arsenal played pretty football and lost that game, they would still have been booed off because they'd lost the game.

And there is an understanding and a demand from the home fans that they win pretty much every game now. And I think once you're used to something as a fan and you expect it, and if you don't get it, people will boo. Yeah, but yeah, I don't get the booing. Arsenal are the top of the Premier League. You know, good chance of, well, I think P.S. Gell will win the champion. but that you know they've been good in the champions league I think I just don't see

the upside of it and I don't know players low or if there are the players low on confidence in the in the Arsenal team I don't think that that that helps in any way shape or form you know we always you know teams who win the title and fans always talk about togetherness and the club being one so any other any split like that and I take your point on you know fans boo all the time nowadays, but it doesn't make it right. Yeah, I think you shouldn't be booing your team if they're top of the table.

I think that's... Depends how many people are doing it, though. That's the difficult... You know, when you hear a full-time whistle and someone will say there are booze at full-time, that will definitely be true and audible, but it doesn't take that many people to make it audible, if that makes sense.

No, that's true. It's a proportion. It wasn't 60,000 at the Emirates booing, but the fact that anyone was booing, I think, is significant. All right, last thing on this, because I think it's a nice way to finish the chat. And Chris already kind of give an opinion on this earlier, but I do think it's really pertinent to ask all of you. Whose position would you rather be in now?

With Sunday in mind, with the running in mind, would you rather be Manchester City six points back, but with the game in hand and Arsenal to come at home at what feels like a good time? Or Arsenal with the lead, near them? I'd rather be Arsenal with the lead. I think the danger that we have here is, in my opinion, assuming that City is just going to win that game against Crystal Palace,

which is their game in hand. Whenever you start putting points on the board which you haven't earned yet, I think that's a very dangerous position to be in. And Arsenal have made it this far. They can finish the season on 88 points if they win their last six games to see the end being that close

and know that you've built a robust style of football throughout the season to where it's not necessarily about the glamour of it all, I think they can find a way to be dogged to get to the end. It's not to say that they will do it, but I'd rather be the team at the top of the table right now. Rory? All those same reasons plus

city have to win on Sunday Arsenal can draw which I think means that yeah their position is the stronger one but only just like it is tight because it is if City win all of their games

and store three more dolls than Arsenal than they are champions you covered all bases there I'm just saying I'd rather be Arsenal but it is a close one if City win

you immediately change though right because then it could come down to a goal difference now would it not be a goal of difference thing if City were to win. Well, only if they then both win out from there, yeah. That's possible, is it not? Yeah, no, it is possible.

That's what I mean. That's the interesting thing as well. Like, if City even do win on Sunday, there's no guarantee. And I think the thing that would be in their favor is, I just, not this, this is wrong to assume, but I think Arsenal will get through against sports in Lisbon midweek. So they'll have another two Champions League ties to make, put in the mix with their other games, whereas for City, they've got one weekend between and end of the season at Wendley for that semi-final. So that would probably be over them.

I do love the If game. I really enjoy it. And who would you rather be? Would you rather be the team in front or in second right now? Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, isn't it? Not really. Yes, it is though, isn't it? Not really, is it?

I mean, you know, Arsenal top for a reason. You'd much rather be Arsenal right now. If they lose 6-0 at the weekend, then I'd rather be sitting there. Redstones. The engines are revving. Every race live on BBC sounds. It's all right to the lights. On five live sports.

This is the Monday nightclub with Steve Crossman. On the Football Daily podcast. We're going to talk Spurs now. No new manager bounce thus far for Roberto Deserby. One game, one defeat. Tottenham beat and one nil at Sunderland in his first game in charge. West Ham's win over Wolves on Friday meant that Spurs ended the day in the bottom three

for the first time since August 2015 but that was when they lost on an opening day so that doesn't really count. Anyway, here's Deserby following that defeat. I can do a big brother, a father, they don't need a coach they don't need

to improve food They don't need to play better, okay? They can play better and they will play better when we will reach a different level of confidence of ourselves. And these things are crucial for us in this moment. A big job, a hard job in just a few short weeks this season. But are you really looking forward to the challenge?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm sure if we are able to win a game, everything got to change. Interesting. All right, so that's Roberto DeZerby with Guy Mowbray. So that Nadia was his Match the Day interview. That line, which is a fascinating line,

I can be a big brother or a father. They don't need a coach. So you said that on Match the Day, also said it on Five Live, also said it on BBC Radio London. So that's his message. And I think in some ways it is fair because those players as such,

I think he acknowledges that they are good players, but having significant confidence issues, for example. I'm not necessarily believing in the projects or whatever the coach wants them to believe in. And in some ways, it's understandable. Like, it's been 14 league games without a win. It's obscene. Like, the last league win they had was the 28th of December in 2025.

Like, I'm one of those people, I'll be honest. I continue to believe Spurs will stay up. But as every game passes, I'm like, well, why do I believe that? Same. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, the win this weekend, they'll be fine. this weekend it would be fine and I've said this for like three months now

and the performance on the weekend it was going to be a tough game going away to Sunland who have a pretty good home record as such but I think Deserby's right and that's so interesting because as I think about Deserby as a coach like it's his coaching ability that sets him apart

I didn't know it's going to be stuff about him just providing confidence for those players that would be the difference because I thought maybe you could present them with a style of play which they can buy into they can believe in go forward onto the pitch with like extra confidence but I think in some ways it's a good like case study about it doesn't matter how good you are as a player.

When the confidence is down, football can be very, very tough. And I'd say that's 14 games and 105 days without a league win. In the seasons where you were fighting relegation. Oh, come to me first. Why don't you? Go on. Would you have, would it have been better to have somebody who was coach first, coach second, coach last, or that idea of somebody who is more fatherly brilliant? where's your cut off or father or brother

do you know what I mean? Yeah I think it depends like the reason for your team being in the position that they're in like if there are real tactical issues as such then as a consequence you'd want somebody to come in and give the team a plan

like we've seen that historically like say Leicester City staying up in 2014 2015 I think they went to like a back three or something and that helped them sort of propel themselves forward to finish maybe like 14th in that season but sometimes it is like you know how can you increase the mood how can you make the players sort of believe in themselves a bit more believing as I say sometimes as well it's

addition through subtraction and with all due respect to you go chudo I don't think he necessarily got the place to be any better throughout his tenure then if anything felt like it went the other way so yeah I think for me personally I always like to go on the pitch knowing that we had a plan which people believed in because then when it when things were tough people could always revert back to the same thing, the same belief in understanding about how to get out of the situation. But I think you've seen the talent that they have, knowing that realistically they shouldn't be that low down in the table.

And as a consequence, yeah, maybe it is just a case of continuing to have that belief, but it's very tough to do that when you're a new face and some of those players have really suffered, you know, mentally throughout this season so far. I wondered, Chris, whether what Nadine was saying there around Igo Trudeau is pertinent, because there would be an argument going

in there after what's happened, just be as opposite to the last guy as possible. And Igor Tudor was not a father or a brother to those players. No, I think that's a great point. I mean, you know, Igor Tudor hit him with the stick, didn't he?

I mean, was it the second game, wasn't at Fulham where, I mean, I can believe it. He filleted every department of the team and told them that they were useless. And, you know, he did that publicly. How are the players going to feel? And I think this is fascinating, actually, the way Deserby's gone about it.

Because I don't know the way you viewed Deserby. But, you know, you're thinking, as Nedams said, a pure coach. That's what he is. But it's not, you know, he said the team don't need to be coached. And that means that they're that low on confidence. They're not ready for him in a short space of time to go in and play that Deserby brand of football. So it's just, I mean, it's just about getting them over the line. But it's, it's, it's, it's, wouldn't describe it as, I think he's doing the right thing,

but it's pathetic really that, you know, you have, have a team, such a talented team who have such little belief. I mean, I just, I looked at the Tottenman bench at the weekend. I mean, if, if you look at the players on the bench, Simmons, Danzo, Dreguces, in Pellina, Basu, Mattel, Sa. I mean, that's, you know, that's an expensive bench. That is. And, you know, you look at the first thing.

How top number are in this position, I mean, is just absolutely incredible. I think that the players have to take a great deal of responsibility. But it's interesting that in the early days, it's just, you know, his early days, it's just about trying to lift them, keep them on side, cajole them into having that, relief where they can just get over the line.

And then I'm sure if Tottenham do stay up, it'll be start of next season, him doing what he did at Brighton. Because I think we touched on this last week. Remember what Lewis Dunk said? When he first went in at Brighton, it was carnage. And the players were baffled for the first couple of weeks.

So he's gone in, he's put his coaching principles aside and just, you know, to try and keep them up? I would have thought that that impact will have been minimised a little bit by the fact that the Spurs players will have known what was coming.

They will know what is coming when he goes like fully deserby because we've seen his football in the Premier League before, whereas in Brighton, when he went to Brighton, he would have been a relatively unknown quantity. He'd obviously coached in Italy

and he'd done well at Shatatah. But it is just not the case that all those Brighton players would have been watching Shatatah Danette's games to see what the new manager was like, he will have been a surprise. It won't have worked like that at Spurs. But I agree with Chris, I think it's really interesting that he's chosen to approach it very much as, basically as the type of Italian manager that he stands in opposition to,

the kind of allegory character who goes in and says, this is what these players need, this is what they can do and this is what they are good at. We are going to do that as well as we can. That is now our plan, rather than the Deserbie approach, which is much more modeled on Guadiola and is very kind of, here's my idea, we're going to do this, this is all that matters. He's only taken two staff members in with him, which for an Italian coach, he will feel naked and alone because they like to have several thousand people around them who know exactly, you know, catering to their every need.

He clearly has realized he's taken a firefighter approach to the first seven weeks, which was, that was the first big test. Like, Will, does he think, is he such an ideologue that he thinks that he has to play his way even in these really extreme circumstances. And he obviously doesn't. He's obviously prepared to be much, much more pragmatic. But I guess the limitation is not... It's the opposite of Amarim when he went in at Man United, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. He's kind of, he's done the reverse Amarim. He said, I will, I'll put this on hold until the summer. Let's stay up and then we can do the fancy playing out from the back stuff. I think there's a risk there that you end up getting caught between two stools or even trying to coach a type of football that he's not that. that if he doesn't really believe in, maybe the way he coaches it isn't that kind of effective. But the main thing is, Spurs have had an injury crisis for about two years.

There's a core of players there who will be exhausted physically. And the confidence must be through the floor. And in those circumstances, I don't really know what you can do other than try and convince the players that they're good enough to win the three matches they probably need to win to have a chance of staying up. Yeah, I think it's really interesting as well with Deserby. is listening to a manager at the start versus manager at the end can be so significant

because he says, oh, you know, they need the father figure, they need the brother and then like two, three games in they need the stepfather, let them know that this is unacceptable. This will not be done in my house this way

because the results are, you know, they're hugely important. If he remains relaxed, it shows that he's going to be there next season regardless. But if it's a case of, you know, this is like absolutely everything, you see a changing tone.

And something I would kind of push back against a little bit is yes we know how Deserbe's teams play but we don't know the journey for those teams to get there like I've had an Italian manager in the past who would have you doing team shape every single day of the week like days off disappear

an hour of this session is going to be walking through these things and I think for some players that can like break morale as such whereas there could be some whereby you learn it through lots of things that keep you thinking and so on so those players they've seen how say Brighton have played they might have seen how Marseille played, you know, Shaktar and so on. But seeing the real deserve he come out at some point, that could be a shock to some people.

And whether that comes now on next season, it's going to be interesting. Just seeing Sammy Mark Bell, senior football correspondent, is saying that Christian Romero is going to miss the rest of the season with that knee injury that he picked up. You could kind of see how sort of upset he was. There was that collision with Antoninkinski, which is obviously what has caused it. So, I mean, I'm stating the bleeding, obviously,

I know, Chris, but that is a massive blow just when they didn't need it. Yep. although he's had a fair bit of criticism this season hasn't he? Romero, it'll be interesting, won't at the end of the season. If they do go down, you know,

there'll be a lot of players who want that. I do think it is fascinating. The more you think about the Deserbie appointment, they've, and the way that he's talked, you know, they've brought in a, or his style is Mr. Motivator, isn't it?

That's all it is. It's not, younger audiences, Chris. Yeah, one for the kids. But it is. Joe Wicks? Could you have said that? Is he really that motivational?

Joe Wicks? I'd never found him that motivational. But there you go. Yeah, it's just sort of, you know, why didn't he wait until the end of the season? To what, sorry. Well, just wait and see because if he's not, he's basically saying he's not,

what he said, he said in that interview that he's not coaching the team. You know, he's there just. just to try and lift the players. I mean, it's, you know, on the face of things, it's a strange appointment. Maybe the five-year deal, sort of 12 million pounds a year,

sort of hurried him along a little bit to sign that. But it does seem odd that they've got a guy in who's a great coach, who's not going to coach, and he's in there just to lift the players. Isn't that just the wrong time to be trying to coach them his football? Surely what he means is he's not taking sessions where he is lambasting them for not being able to grasp his concepts rather than he's not letting them train. There will be changes in the way Spurs play over the next six games.

I just think he means that he's going to take it more slowly than we would expect of someone who has a reputation as like an idealistic firebrand. Yeah, and that's hard to judge the way he's going about. it, but that means that he probably is doing something different to what he has done at his previous clubs, which I don't know whether that's dangerous or not. All right, that's it for this episode of the Monday Night Club. Big thank you to Chris Rory and to Nadem. Up next on the Football Daily, Champions League debrief with Kelly Cates after Liverpool's quarterfinal second leg against Paris Sao Jemar.

As always, thank you so much for listening. Hello, I'm Tyler West. And I'm Alfie Watts. And this is The Detour, the official companion podcast to race across the world. This is the post-episode checkpoint where you'll hear the latest chat around each episode from us and our race superfan special guests. Plus, I'll be joined each week by a resident travel expert, Alfie. That's you, ma'am. I'll be revealing my optimal way to travel through each leg, including visits to all of those unmissable detours along the way.

And we'll also have some not seen anywhere else exclusive content at the end of every episode. I cannot wait. The detour will land straight after each episode of Race Across the World. You can watch on Eyeplayer or listen on Sounds, where you'll also find extra bonus content. We'll see you then. Welcome to The Interface, the show that decodes the tech that's rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, we'll look at the way that algorithms could change how much you're paying for your groceries, how even astronauts have issues with Microsoft Outlook, and whether the next trend in tech is less tech.

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