Football Daily - MNC: Arsenal's ominous start and Man Utd's defensive concerns

Episode Date: September 7, 2026

Mark Chapman is joined by Rory Smith, Chris and newly-appointed England U21s assistant coach Conor Coady.They look at Arsenal's impressive start to their defence of their Premier League and the early form of Kai Havertz, Martin Odegaard and Bukayo Saka.  Is a return of four points from three games good enough for Man Utd? The panel look at a mixed start for Michael Carrick's side. And they assess why Burnley and Leicester are struggling in the Championship and League One. TIMECODES00:30 Conor Coady retirement 02:30 Do Arsenal look untouchable? 07:35 The dangers posed by a fully fit Odegaard, Havertz and Saka  14:20 What can Chelsea read into the defeat?  18:00 Alonso like Ancelotti 22:00 Man Utd's defensive frailties  30:45 Leicester and Russell Martin's struggles 41:55 Why have Burnley started badly?5 LIVE/BBC SOUNDS COMMENTARIES Tuesday 1945 Crystal Palace v Middlesbrough (Sports Extra 2 - Simulcast) Tuesday 2000 FC Porto v Manchester City (5 Live) Wednesday 2000 Liverpool v Atletico Madrid (5 Live) Wednesday 2000 Chelsea v Leeds United (Sports Extra 3 - Simulcast)

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England under 21 coach Connor Cody. That's a coach, Chris. I know sometimes you struggle with the roles of people in football and what they do. Connor will be on the grass trying to help help players. Yeah, I saw that. He's not a sport scientist. No, that's, well, he may go into that,

maybe later. So is that you, is that you done now? Or is it with playing Connor? No, no, not quite. Not quite. I'm still looking, I'm still seeing what's there for the next few weeks. And then obviously we might make a decision

after that, depending on what comes. But no, no, no, I'm still still, very intrigued on playing and seeing what's there in the next few days, few weeks, hopefully we'll see what's there. Why are you looking puzzles at that? No, I just wonder because he's still a relatively young man compared to us three. And, you know, I just, I just wonder because of the role as well. I mean, you go object to that, but I can't.

He's right. It's really annoying. Yeah, but because you're going into coaching and that, you know, that in itself is far more stressful than playing. Yeah. What are you doing? Yeah, no, to be honest, what are you doing? To be honest, Chris, it was kind of, I've known Lee Carsey for a while.

He's an unbelievable coach, a really, really nice fellow. So I've known him for plenty of years, and he's always said to me, it's something to want to do. So to have the opportunity now to join him, I think he's brilliant for me. Because that's the route I want to go down. I want to go down that route, kind of. Conner, where are you on your badges? I've done my A license, so I can jump on my pro next year.

So that's what I intend to do. And I'm, yeah, I love every minute of it, mate. Yeah, it's good. Just thinking if you need any advice, from somebody who's managed then, you know, get in touch, Connor. Yeah, I will be. I will be, don't worry about that, Chris.

Even though Chapp has told me a bit about you before, yeah, but I'll leave that till later. Did he? Yeah, he did. Yeah, when he was off mic, of course. He doesn't do it over the mic, does he? Oh, to be fair, to be fair, Chris is one of the few I would say it exactly to his face.

I know, I was explaining to Connor that last week, Chris, you got yourself in a mess with who was responsible for what aspects of a football club when you blame the sports scientists for scouting the wrong players that was all I was saying let's start at the Emirates then Arsenal's 2-1 win

against Chelsea we'll look at it from the Arsenal point of view first of all which I'm guessing means we started Monday Nightclub with positivity which doesn't happen very often do you think they look untouchable yeah not untouchables

is a really strong word I think they look the most ready team I've seen in a long time at this stage of a season. Usually when you look at teams at this stage of a season, they're getting up to speed and there's a few floors here and there. They look top, top. And I think it goes down to what obviously Michel Artes has done over the summer, but not just like with recruitment for me.

I think it's what he does on the grass. I think it must be how he makes them players better because the position they find themselves in the minute, not just where they are in the league or whatever that may be. I mean in terms of how they're playing. I just think they look so far ahead of everybody else. It's unbelievable at the net. Do you think then, with your coaching hat on,

and from a playing point of view, but when you say makes players better, are you looking, because their skills are already there, aren't they? Because they're professional football. So are you looking at what? Versatility, positioning, say the role of Califiori,

or what he's done with Havert, or even the role of Erdogard, who were the three who were most praised yesterday. Are you looking at it tactically what he does on the grasswood? Yeah, and I thought last season they were fluid. I feel like the more fluid this year, we thought of Arsenal last year as being a physical side.

They were bigger, stronger, we all spoke about set plays. And I just think now the fluidity between everybody, where Odegaard picks up the vote, the position Calli If you're finding himself in his unbelievable, he's as a 10, he's playing as a 10. And I know he's played there previously where he finds himself in them position. We see him Ben White occupying them position the other day

in one of the games as well. The fluidity between them all now looks like he's improved on it during the summer. And that's what I believe top managers do. They make players better. It's not just about the players you bring in. It's about making the players who are there better. One other question on that,

and then I'll bring the other to him. But when you watch them, say on television or even from on high, you can see the pattern that they're trying to work, which is presumably worked on. But I'm guessing when you're in the thick of it as a player, those patterns are harder to spot as an opponent because you aren't looking down on high.

Is that a stupid question? No, not a stupid question, but it just shows to me the belief they have in the manager because he must work on that every single day. So I've seen a lot of Declan Rice dropping between the two centrebacks to get on the ball. Other guard being in front, Califiori going in as a 10,

Ben White going in as a 10, Haver has been on the last line. And that's worked on it. But it's full belief from the players to the manager that they've gotten him. So that's where I go back to the work he must put in on the training pitch to make them players better.

We're talking about our team, by the way, who won the Premier League last year and done what they'd done and how well they played, and he's still making them better. And that's where I feel they are now. It's not just about buying top players, which they have, by the way, Gamares and players like this who have coming in Conza. Fantastic, fantastic footballers. But he's actually making the players there better

as well as bringing them players in, which is an unbelievable thing to have. How much of a difference do you see between the Arsenal of last year who were really, really good and the Arsenal that we've seen over the last three games? Is it another evolutionary step beyond? Is that what you're kind of watching? I feel like I've seen that a little bit in the first few games. Yeah, I mentioned their fluidity, Rory about kind of the position players are finding themselves in.

Now, the wingers, when they come inside, Odegaard floats everywhere. Now, we all know he's an unbelievable footballer, but the positions he picks up on the ball to make things happen. It's like he's got that little bit of a free roll where he can go wherever he wants. His goal, yes, for me, was unbelievable. The move and to get him behind, the little overs from Havitts, and then the finish was fantastic to lift it over Martinez. But he just finds himself where one minute he'll be picking up on the centrebacks, then he's running him behind to score a goal, then he's playing through lines,

then he's receiving on the half-turn, and he's the one through lines. And I just think the fluidity, and you mentioned their evolution. It might be evolution. This is what he must be going to. But you've got to give him so much praise for the work he must have done.

It's a lot of work that's gone in. It's not just going by a load of players. Like, for me, he's made them players better day in, day out, during preseason, and we're seeing it now at start the league. You go back a year, Arsenal lost at Anfield, Liverpool had won their first three games,

and as much as they were the defending champions who looked like they were, you know, they'd won three in a row, ended up winning five in a row. They looked relatively like they hit the ground running. Well, last season? Yeah. No, Liverpool did.

Yeah, but last season, they kept rescuing themselves, though. That's what I was going to say, yeah, that they dropped the results, but they didn't look secure in getting those victories. You could tell that it was fragile, and it could go one of two ways. Whereas with Arsenal, it looks like they've, I agree with Connor,

I thought the first half against Chelsea, they played a pace in a style of football. They did at times, season but not consistently necessarily. And then the second half was full on Arsenal control. We're shutting this game down. We're better than you. We can out think you. We can out-fight you. We can out-maneuver you. It was between those two halves, there was a real display of

just total superiority. And the big difference will be the work they've done on the training pitch, obviously. But it's having Oedegaard and Havert's there. And, well, Odegaard, Havert and Saka. So that, Chris, was the first time since December 24 that they've

started a third straight league game together. and the last time you could say that they were all fit over the course of the season was 23-24 and that was the season they finished with the club record 91 Premier League goals so they're your two bullet points there yeah you know an incredible trio and you know it is only

the start but as I said that that's that's ominous and I think last season people were doubting Odegaard I think he had a few injury issues and Saka wasn't necessarily at his fluent best. Madowecki, actually, you know, I think, you know, he's a different profile to Saka. But, no, it's, and there's the debate surrounding Havert, you know, whether to go with the more physical Yoccharest.

But Yocch, he doesn't have Havert's intelligent, you know, I think, I think he's, you know, he's a different type of player. But Havert was, you know, so clever for the, for the Odegaard goal. And that's what Yoceris probably doesn't have. Yeah, I agree with Chris and what he's saying there about the profiles. I don't think the profile is the same even the players he's bringing on.

And I think that's standing them in good stead as well. So they can get to a point where they're winning a game 2-1. In Capier comes on, who for me is different to Calli Afuri. He's a defender, proper defender. Calliore is a good defender. Listen, I'm not saying that,

but what I'm saying is, when you're 2-1-up, he's a great player to bring on in Capier. Eze is different to Woldegarde. Giacorez is different to have it. These are all different type of players. And it's as if now he's got a solution Michel Artetta where he can go, I can play

this way against certain teams, I can play that way against different teams, and I just feel a look at them in a minute and you always seem in control of everything they're doing. Do you think Havertis is a bit Burbatoff-esque, which probably would annoy Spurs fans immediately, just in his

his touch for a centre forward is just exquisite. I think yes, I can see that, but... Maybe because it looks effortless. Maybe that's where...

But no, I think... I think Berbertoff... I was speaking to Jermaine Defoevite. Berbertoff actually today. Berbertoff was... Well, hang on here. What were you doing? That was a clang winner.

Just pick his name up there. What were you doing Jemate Defoe? Were you doing Clay Pigeon shooting again? No. No, I wasn't. It was another podcast, which I was doing interviewing him. And we were talking about...

What? Hang on. You've got your own interview podcast. Not personally. It's not named. Is it about leadership? Is it your motivational speaking podcast? It's about sports science.

That's what it's... But I don't... In fairness, in fairness, however good habits is, I can't think of... I try to think... Any centre forward who... made the game look that easy and how's the language. And he would just pluck balls out of the sky, Berbertoff.

And, you know, like he was shelling peas. Havertz doesn't do it in the same way, but his importance to Arsenal is pretty clear. I think he's like, sorry, Roder, go on, mate. Go on. Nothing particularly insightful. It's just to say that I think that there is a, I agree with Chris that Berbertoff was much more like,

played like he might have been having a cigar than Havert's. Havert's is a bit busier. but there is, there's a similarity in their touch and I think there is a little bit of a similarity in their movement when Burbatoff moved but a lot of Burbatoff's game was around not really moving very far to be honest I think he's like a false nine have it

I don't actually think he's like an out and out nine I never have and I don't actually know what his position's ever been even when he was at Chelsea and he was playing how he was playing but I just, I don't know what you guys think I don't actually think he's like, he's not a Glocker as nine is he?

I don't, I hate a He wasn't a centre forward at, no, he wasn't a centre forward at Leavikus. was he when he first came. He was a wide left, wasn't he? Or he could play as a 10. So he has evolved at Chelsea. They used him as a central striker.

And then, but yeah, I mean, it's, yes, it's different now. He doesn't, he doesn't, he does have the physicality where he can score headers. And, and, and, but he, he, he doesn't move the same as Yocchus. Yocchres will occupy the, the center backs. He'll, he'll play sort of high and run in the channels. where Havert's has the brain of a midfielder, really. And that's why, you know. I don't like disagreeing with Conner,

but I think there's a thing with Havert's where we've thought of him as a false nine, but he's not. He's just a different type of nine. And do you know what I mean? I think the phrase itself becomes a little bit meaningless. He's a striker. He's just also, he gets involved with play. He's not like a pure nine in the sense that Yocchere's is where that's kind of all he does.

but he, I mean, he straws big goals. Does that not make him a false nine, no, if he's not a, if he's a different, is it nine and a half, Rory? The false nine, so I think the false nine was initially used when Totti played there at Roma, and the idea was that he would hold the ball up, spin, and then players would run beyond him. That's what he did, and it was to be just,

Spilletti had run out of strikers. And then we started to sort of use it to mean someone who was playing up front, but not very good, which is what it kind of became in the last 10 years. It was like a striker who didn't draw goals was a false nine. I think Avers is just a nine.

It's just that he does, he has the skill set of a, and the brain, as Chris says, of a midfielder. And I don't know, in a way, it feels like to me like he's a bit underrated because people think of him as a false nine when they should just judge him as an actual strike. I agree with you there.

I think he's massively underrated. Don't back down. No, no, I'm not back in down. Who underrated? People like a bit of tension in their audio content these days. I'm trying to introduce. People underrate him as a nine, Chris.

Otherwise, there wouldn't be constant talk about Arsenal trying to buy another number nine. That is a much better way of saying what I just said. Yes, well done, chappas. You're a professional broadcast. Well, I'm debatable. Can I ask, do you not, why don't you like disagreeing with Connor?

Is that in the same way that you didn't ever used to like disagreeing with Sean Deich when you were in person with him? Different in the sense that I was physically frightened of Sean Ditch. Whereas I respect and like Connor in a sort of intellectual way. So you don't like Sean Dyshe? Oh no, this is I'm terribly right. Respect and like Sean Dykes, but I'm not physically afraid of Connor,

just he is in Manchester. From a Chelsea point of view, can you judge anything from that, Rory? Do you think? I think the whole Chelsea thing is mad. Jabby Alonso's been there for three and a half months. They have bought 10 players. They have sold 20.

At one point he had a squad of players, not a bomb squad, absolutely not a bomb squad who were training adjacent to the first team with some players coming back from injury some youngsters, some people that they wanted to leave but it wasn't a bomb squad. Might look like a bomb squad, might smell like a bomb squad,

it wasn't a bomb squad. They've been on tour to Malaysia and Hong Kong and whatever. The fact that he has in the first three games you can already see like a distinctive style of attacking play. I think it's close to a miracle to expect him to sort out the defence

as well immediately and criticise for the fact that they don't look like the AC Milan of Franco-Barrosi and Palman Maldini strikes me as being a little bit harsh, to be honest. I thought that they went toe-to-toe with Arsenal for a bit. They created some chances. I think they probably let Arsenal play a bit too much and Arsenal took advantage of that.

But they weren't humiliated at the Emirates. They went to the best team in the country, lost 2-1, deservedly 2-1. But this is a team that six months ago was a total joke that people were accusing of being unsirious. And now they're very clearly not. not. They've got a really talented coach and they are making progress. So as much as it's disappointing from a Chelsea point of view that they lost,

I don't think it was a kind of tear your hair out disappointment at all. We can't go from talking how good Arsenal after seven years under Artetta to now Keying in Chelsea. I was a suggestion. No, no, but I'm just saying like all of us, all of us in general can't do that. Do you know what I mean? When we're praising Arsenal so much and it's seven years worth of work to find Artetta, get to this point, I'm absolutely praising them.

And then after three and a half months, I was saying, Chelsea look a million miles away from Arsenal. They're not going to look near Arsenal. It's never going to happen. Javi Lonzo is trying to work out. I think we're finding what his preferred system is with what he's played in the first few games, which is a 3-4-3 with the 2-10s

with Morgan Rogers and Col Palmer, which is an unbelievable forward line, by the way. Let's not forget about that. So we're trying to find out what he's going to be. We can't compare them to Arsenal at this moment of time. You just can't. I agree with Coach Connor, you know, with his assessment there. We can't, you know, we're judging them again.

against the best team in the land, Arsenal, and they are. So I think it's easier. I still think that there are some oddities, like Rory has mentioned. They have been vulnerable defensively. The thing which fascinates me is the fact that they're against Brighton and Fulham,

their possession stats were so low, were so low. But at Leverkusen, Rory, looking when he won the league 23, 20, I had a look and thought, well, were Leverkusen's possession stats loaded, you know, did the opposition have all the ball? They didn't. They mainly dominated possession still. So I do think that it's a work in progress and it will take time.

You know, the forwards they have and the fact that he's playing counterattack, you know, at this moment in time, I think is really interesting. But I do think that they will evolve over his time and start to dominate games more. than they have, but they are a bit of a work in progress. They absolutely are. I think the possession stats are slightly stued by the fact that they were, what, three-nill up after 20 minutes against Brighton? And I think that Alonso himself said they're just trying to let Brighton have the ball.

And that's what you do in that situation. You set off, you say, look, you've got to break us down. The on this is all on you. It's a bit extreme to have 26% possession. I mean, that was an eye-catching statistic. But I don't think that's necessarily indicative of the way that That means that's how Alonso wants to play. But I also think...

He's thinking differently to what we've become used to. And, you know, in terms of the top teams wanting to have everything and dominate the ball and high press, he's different, isn't he? I think one of the things that is misunderstood about Alonso, I remember speaking to him when he was at Labour Tuesday, if I'm allowed to clang as well. And you sort of go through all the coaches he's worked with. So he obviously played under PEP,

Marino, Benitez and Ancelotti. And his thing is, like, I talk a bit from all of them, and he's very diplomatic about it. But the one he is most like is Carlo. I think we assume, because he's Spanish, because he's really bright, because he's sophisticated, because he kind of wears sort of Guadiola-style, sort of trendy clothes on the touchline.

You assume he's kind of an air to pep. But he is like Carlo. He's quite pragmatic. He believes fundamentally that the most important thing is getting into the heads of the players, building those relationships with the players. I think he probably does prefer playing three at the back because that's what he's generally tried to do

but I don't think he's wedded to it in like a Ruben Amarin way I don't think he's like well like this is the only way to play football I refuse to countenance anything else I think he'll play counter-attacking football if he thinks that's what he's got the players for and what works best I don't think he's a fundamentalist in that sense but also on the style and the possession then Connor I mean there are various things that all play into that

firstly I'm guessing he'd quite like his first choice midfield to be available and then that might give them more control I also go back to something that Moreska said last year with Chelsea when Colwell got injured at the start of the season and he suggested they, and he suggested

they needed another centreback and everybody was like you've got 12 centre halves already. Why didn't you know that? And his point was the only other person who progresses the ball as a centre half who can pass the ball in the way that Colwell could is tossing and tossing and tossing has now gone to spurs under this range

you. So if you look at maybe not the midfield he's got, maybe centre halves you aren't as good on the ball as maybe you would like them to keep the ball. And then also what you want from your wingbacks, I'm guessing in all of this, which might be slightly different things. It's

going to take time if you are going to build a possession game like he had at Labourcusen. Of course it is and it takes time to build everything. Not just the way of playing and the way you centreback step in for example and break lines to tens who then set sixes or whatever it may be. But also to build that team so Rory mentioned there, I think it's 10 signings who's coming.

We've got to remember it by Leibuze, and he has Shaka, sent him in who could dictate the ball no matter what. He could get on the ball, get on the half-tier. Who he wanted, by the way, who's a top, top footballer. So it takes time to build all aspects of what he's trying to do. Now, we can see he's trying to look at things. We've seen Pedro Netto the other day playing as a wingback.

So I know for fact Pedro won't want to play as a wingback because he wanted to play in the two-tens or in a front-free. That's how it is. But we're seeing him trying things in these games to get to the point that's going to win him games, because he'll know better than most. You've still got to win games being Chelsea manager. But I just think we're looking so much at the start of a process

and start of a journey with him. He's got so far to go. And that's everything for me. That's on the training pitch. That's players coming in and finding players that fit that system. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck.

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This pressure is on every manager in the league with the expectation is high. Subscribe now and don't miss an episode. Search Euroleaks on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday Nightclub. with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast. Is four points from three games a good enough start for Manchester United given their opponents, Chris?

No. Absolutely not. Not based on the way Manchester United finished last season and I think the confidence Manchester United fans had going into the season. And, you know, expectations were high based on what Michael Carrick achieved. Then to lose the Hull in the manner which they did, it can happen. I think Hull have had a brilliant start to the season. Another great point at the weekend against Aston Villa.

They have their way of playing. They haven't considered a goal, yeah? Yeah, I mean, it's an amazing start. You know, it really is, you know, from Hull. And then Ips which actually I thought were good for an hour against Manchester United, but Manchester United found a way to win. I actually missed half of the second half yesterday because I was so bored watching the first half. I mean, it was such a dreadful first half ever in Manchester United yesterday.

What did you do then? I took the dogs for a walk and sawed a bit of wood up for the winter. So, and then I thought United were two one up. And then I came in and Maitland Niles scored that incredible goal. where United looked like they'd, you know, we're going to do it, which would have been a big result for Michael Carrick. But I think Manchester United fans would look at the games and think, surely we, you know, should be doing a bit better.

But it's not that we can judge them because it's three games. Why are they defending as badly as they are in the sense of, and maybe you'll tell me there aren't, you know, there's not a great deal you could do about what Maitland Niles did, but they've conceded two goals in every game so far. Yeah, of course, and you look at it from the outside and you say, a team like Man United, I agree with Chris, should be winning these games. They shouldn't be considered as many goals, of course.

It's hard to give you an answer because the arc can see in the goals. What the answer is, I think Michael Carrick will know more, and Steve Holland will know more when they're in it. But I think they'll want to be clear. I think the first game of the season, I think, was a tough one in a way, and of course we'll sit here and go, Man United should win that. But I think it's one of them games as a club like Man United and being in a player's point of view,

and you never want to do this, you never want to think like this. But sometimes you'll go into that game as Man United players going, we're going to win this. And then all of a sudden, Hull hit you at you with a different way of playing. They're playing a bat five, not a different way of playing, but they hit you with a bat five, they sit in, he score off the set players. Hull were fantastic.

And that little kind of thing that enters your head just catches up on you a little bit. I'm not trying to figure out excuses from Man United here, but it was as if they didn't expect to be hit with what Hull hit them with. Do you know what I mean? And sometimes as players, that can creep into your head a little bit, that it's a little bit of an unknown thing that you're coming up against. And Hull were better than them.

Yeah, I was in a say, Connor, I was at that game. And it was, I think United looks a little bit rusty in midfield. They looked a little bit, I don't know, cumbersome in midfield. But basically, that game struck me as being just like a full-on banana skin. Hull were newly promoted, they'd had this good summer where they, even at that stage, they'd already sound loads of players. But, Yukaryovic, who, by the way, is a genuine star in the making as a coach. He's a brilliant coach, and he's a really kind of charismatic presence.

He was given kind of the players who got them promoted the chance. The whole place was up for it. Everyone was in a good mood. They've got this slogan about dreaming and staying up and stuff. And I think most teams, maybe not Arsenal, but I think quite a lot of the big teams would have gone to Hall that day and sort of had a bit of a go over the colds, to be honest. And it does happen.

Obviously, United should, you know, they'd looked at that on paper and think that should be a win or at least a draw. And I'm sure if they played them in November or February, they'd have got that. But first day of the season... You can't say that. You absolutely can't. You can't because the circumstances in which you can't.

The circumstances in which you play the team is important. I think that it was a much more difficult game on the open day. That's a mindset thing. That's a total mindset thing. I think what Connor said is, you know, is absolutely right. They should have been expecting that. They should have been expecting Hull to be super aggressive and run all over them. And they should have known that and they weren't quite at it.

I mean, you know, the goal they conceded from the free quick. a free kick where Luke Shaw drops in. I mean, that's amateur hour stuff from Luke Shaw. And it's mistakes. You don't really expect that from a player of his calib. I actually wonder, Chris, whether there's an element of, every time somebody scores against them at the moment, they seem slightly surprised that they've conceded.

And in fact, Harry McGuire said something after the Ipswich took the lead at Old Trafford, that it was something to do with feeling like, you know, you can immediately sense the next crisis coming when they go a goal down. And there is, they don't appear very sure-footed at the moment. That's amazing though, isn't it? Because of, you would naturally think, and, you know, kind of can tell me I'm wrong,

but the way they finished last season, I mean, just thinking about what you say there. So were they thinking the way that they finished last season was false in the way that, you know, they ended up finishing third? And I think they would have, I think the record under Carrick, they were, was as good as anybody in the Premier League. So was, so, you know, were the players thinking we are, we are really overachieving? And then they, you know, with what McGuire says, they've come back down to the level which he actually thinks that they are, because that's a very odd thing to say.

I agree. It is a bit of a crazy thing to say so early, talking about crisis and talking about, to say it so early. I think the after play with the nine, I don't know what you guys think. I think when they play with the nine, I remember watching the first game against Hull, and I think Cunia played as the nine, and Bueymo was out wide. And Cunia kept on dropping, and it just, I just think it fell into Hull's way of playing with three centrebacks. The ball was coming to the box, no one was there, Hull were head in it, they were brilliant in that moment,

to keeping the clean sheet. Obviously, Sesco will come on and score Jesse or play Jesse and scored. I just think they need somebody to occupy centrebacks me. And I watch Man United play. And it just feels like without that, defenders find it quite easy to play against them. I don't know what you guys think are when you're watching the games as well. That might just be me.

Chris was out with the dogs. Chris was chopping wood. Here you go. Sorry, I was just trying to find the quote. I said it last week on last week's show. So I found it. This was when Ipswich scored first. The goal knocked us back a lot.

When you lose at this club, there's a lot of noise and you feel like you're in a crisis again. I mean, I've answered. I think it's really fragile that whole mentality because if you just think back to Manchester United teams of old, I don't want to go too far back because Rory will get angry. But teams under Alex Ferguson, would that have been their mantra?

Would that have been their men? mentality had Hipswich gone a goal up. Would they be thinking about a crisis? Absolutely not. But that's because they hadn't had loads of recent experience of what it's like being at Man United in a crisis.

So it's obvious that psychologically, psychologically they will be more child. They finish our season strongly. That's the point. So while all of a sudden, when you finish the season like a train, you start the next season, okay, you lose the hole,

and all of a sudden you go behind against Ipswich and you think the wheels are going to come off. You know, that, I find that. really odd. You would still feel if you had enough within the team, which Manchester United did on the day, but you'd still feel that, okay, that's a flip. We're still going to win this game. They ended up doing that, but that's an odd thing to admit from Harry McGuire that he felt like that. But then they beat Ipswich and beat them relatively comfortably. And okay, you can say I'm newly promoted team. And I fully accept that from those three opening games, United would probably have thought five as a minimum,

seven as a kind of good return, potentially nine. But then they'd have beaten Everton if Ainsley-Maint-Lennard hadn't stored the best goal he will ever score in the 96th minute. So it feels like you can't read too much into it because the margins are so fine. We're going to talk, Lester, now, I know this is dropping out it's dropping out of the Premier League

and we've got Leicester and Burnley here who I suppose are both trying to change the directions that they are going in and styles of football that they are playing Leicester in League 1 beaten 4-0 at home by Oxford

at the weekend they're 17th in League 1 they've got five points after five games Harry Souter the captain went on to say it doesn't matter what kind of football you want to play if you don't compete in the game, if you don't win jewels, you don't win tackles, you don't win headers,

then you're not going to give yourself a chance in the game. We play some okay stuff in the first half, but we didn't compete, got brought up at half time, and then again in the second half, the cutting edge wasn't there. That's solely down to the players. Is this a club that is just in transition

every way you look, a former club of yours, or is it more than that? Yeah, I think it is, but it's been in transition and too long now. isn't it, if we're going to be completely honest. From the first time they dropped out the Premier League to them when we went back up and then we went back down again,

it's been too long in transition now and out. For me to sit here and state the obvious of things aren't great and things aren't going well, they've got five points in league one. It's the obvious, we all know that, but there's got to be something deep down that's wrong here because it's been going on for two many years. Now, everyone will sit there and go,

the players aren't good enough, they haven't been good enough, and rightly so because the players haven't been good enough. And I was there. I felt it. I wasn't good enough. when I was there, that's what it was. So we can sit there, but there's got to be a deeper issue.

And I was thinking about this before we come on, Chapas, and I thought to myself, like, over the years, what gave Lester real success? And it was that kind of feeling of going to that ground, thinking it's going to be the hardest game in the world. That's what I used to feel when I went there, when you had Jamie Vardy up front, you had James Madison behind,

you had Tealamund, you had in Dede, you had even going back to Wes Morgan being at centre back with Robert Hooth and these sorts of players, it was the hardest game in the, it was one of the hardest games you were going to have in the season. and I just feel like that identity is being lost over the years. And I was part of that, by the way. I was part of that team when we lost that identity.

And it's tough to see. It's really tough to see because my time they was tough, but seeing them now in this position and where there are. And it's such a process now, because Russell Martin's football, I actually really like Russell Martin. I really do. And I like how he goes about his business and what he tries to do. But his football is such a process

that you need time to learn and learn and learn and learn over and learn over and over again. It's just whether he gets that time not. And he's been in situations before where it's been sticky at the start and then Southampton is the one where it turn round. But there's a pattern, as Connor says here, Rory. And actually, you know, he's in a tough spot, Russell Martin.

You actually look at Leicester's last five permanent managers. He's second on the list of win percentage. I don't mean at Leicester, just over a period of. time. You know, he's got a 29% win percentage. There are Steve Cooper below that, Rud van Nistroy below that, Gary Rowett below that, Marty Sifuentes just above that.

It highlights the sort of turmoil, I suppose, of Lester's recent appointments. Well, yeah, but also think about the start of play that all those managers would kind of prefer and it doesn't suggest there's any real strategy. There's no overarching belief of what they, the

ownership want Lester to be or what they feel Lester should be. and yeah Conner's right it takes a while to get used to any new manager I think the issue that Lester have got

maybe is that they they're obviously they're a very big club for lead one there'd be an expectation from the supporters that even if performances were a little bit ropy

and the players hadn't quite figured out exactly what Russell Martin wanted they should have the quality to be relatively competitive within lead one regardless as much as there's a lot of youth in that team

they have four players who were 20 or younger in the team on Saturday and Lewis Page, the midfielder I think Man United have been trying to sign for most of the summer so he's obviously, I'm not, I won't claim to we've seen in play, but he's obviously meant to be going to go out of a hole every week. I'm constantly at a hole.

I've got one of you at hull every week, another one working as a lumberjack. I'm like, basically, I'm just going to Connor all the time. But, I mean, but they, you know, Bobby Daycordover Reed was in that team on Saturday, who's, you know, played in the premier league. Alex McCarthy. Alex McCarthy was in the team.

Suit is an experience player. Dick Ottoe Reid 33. You mentioned suit. Luke Thomas has played Premier League. He has and was very good. I think the point Rory made about this is Lester in League 1

and the fan base can forgive, you know, they can forgive a manager. Of course they can. But if they're not going to be competitive, if they're not going to be competitive in League 1, it's going to be a huge problem. And I don't think, I like Russell as well.

I admired him as a player. I think he's had a tough time at Rangers where it ended really quickly for him. I think some of it was his doing. Some of it wasn't. But there is this perception now, which is following him around, of his teams just being purely possession-based

and all about, you know, keeping the ball and not having any thrust or cutting edge. And the job he's gone into at Leicester, because of the expectation this season is for them to bounce straight back at the start of the season to win the league. So the youth situation and that, you know, him mentioning that

really isn't going to wash. You cannot lose 4-0 at home to Oxford. And, you know, that's the biggest problem. And, you know, he needs to turn it round and turn it round extremely quickly. There should still be enough experience within the team, we've mentioned the players. But also, and I don't know this, Connor,

and you'd be better service. to answer this, but also you would think that Leicester have enough quality youth players to play at that level, wouldn't you, with what they've been through the last couple of seasons, Premier League? I completely agree. And I actually think over the summer the club done a good job. And listen, Leicester fans won't hear this. And they're probably saying what I'm saying. But I actually think they've done a good job in shifting the energy.

So the last couple of years, it's been tough because the club's been in such a spiral and dropping down. The same players were involved in that. So they had the big summer in terms of changing the energy so a lot of people wanted to see the younger players coming through so they've got Sammy Braybrook who, by the way, is a fantastic footballer. They've got Louis Page, Linkman United. They've got Will Alves who's been around the first team for years. He trained with me, really, really good footballer.

You have players who can come in set Badia Luko with players right back. I think he scored against it, switching the cup last week when I watched the game, some real good young players. And they've done well in the summer to really change the energy of it because the last couple of years have been tough and I think a big part of when it's tough is shifting the energy away from the players who've been there. keeping that little bit of a sprinkle of experience players and whatever.

But for whatever reason, I go back to it. And again, with Russell, I just think it's deeper than just, it's got to be deeper. It can't just be now or the manager's not good. And the players, it's got to run deeper than what we're doing because they decided to bring Russell in. So you decide to tie your flag the mast if you want to say and go, right? We are going to go with this because this is a way that has got to have time to improve. If they're going to make a decision after four or five games, there was no point in bringing Russell in because that's not the sort of manager he is.

Do you know, I don't like Disagreying with Connor, but I really don't like to agreeing with Chris And the one thing that I think is really interesting Russell Martin does come with a reputation And a lot of fans won't like that reputation He is, I mean, I like him as a bloat He came across really well when we had him on the show But there'll be a lot of fans who think

His football is as Chris described it It's kind of possession for possession state But how many of those fan bases will have watched a lot of, or does the myth then just build? The myth is what's important. It's the perception of it. You get it a lot when players who've been rejected

by like Man City are linked with a team in the championship or lower down the Premier League. You will genuinely see Fan saying, well, he's not good enough for us. And you think, well, I'm on. Just because he didn't make the road at Manchester City doesn't mean he can't play at that step down. He'd probably be perfectly good.

And I think Russell Martin's reputation and the fact that the nature of his football is perceived as being divisive makes him a much riskier appointment than he probably should be. Just look for Lester, and all right, didn't work out at Rangers, Russell Martin got Southampton promoted and got them promoted in style. Like he is, in fact, did he take him up twice? Did he take him up from lead one to the championship, then the championship to the Premier League?

Who Southampton? I can remember. Yeah. No, no, just the Premier one. Just in the playoffs. So he's got a track record of doing this. He's good at this. All right, it doesn't work out at Rangers.

A lot of people don't work out at Rangers. But there will be a perception of Martin that means that the fans are less willing to be patient with him than they might otherwise be. And that's totally fair. I think the noise surrounding his exit at Rangers and how everything was piled onto Russell hasn't been fair.

I mean, you know that Rangers are such a big club. but because in being sacked in such a short space of time there, I think that that Lester fans have maybe sort of cottoned on to what happened there. But, you know, that certainly wasn't all Russell at Rangers. But this perception of him as a manager. And, you know, it was the same at Southampton where, you know, when he got them up to the Premier League, I think they played, was it Newcastle, second game,

was it first or second game of the season? Russell, they ended up losing 1-0 but played Newcastle off the park and there were signs things would go okay. It's always going to be a difficult job. But, you know, he's a principled manager but I just, I just,

he needs a result or too quickly to turn the tide because I think Lester fans have made their mind up with him and that's, you know, that is unfair. If there are a lot of young players within the squad, they need time to breathe and evolve, but Leicester fans expect the team to go up and that's his biggest problem.

I also remember, Chris mentioned there, about results kind of from previously. I also remember when they went up in the playoffs in the championship with Southampton, I'm sure right to start that scene, he conceded five against Sondland, he conceded four against our Leicester team at St. Mary's. He was conceding goals and they still ended up going up in the plight.

Now, I'm not saying it's the right way to go, the wrong way to go, but I go back to what I was saying about it being a process with Russell Martin. Some managers aren't, some managers come in and they go, bum, this is how we play, we go longer, we play on the counter, we're solid with it, That is not him. They've got a horrible game on Saturday.

I've just checked. They're away at Stockport on Saturday who are third. Now, Stockport have been a bit hit and miss at home this season. Lost at home to Blackpool, but Stockport away is not an easy fixture for Lester. This weekend, another club who are having a very difficult start, the new seasoner Burnley, who are bottom of the championship. host and editor of the No, nay, never podcast,

and a regular on the Monday night club Natalie Bromley joins us. Are you worried? Are you fearful? Yeah, all of the above. That conversation that you've just had about Lester, just saved that. And in 12 months' time,

we'll just have the same conversation about Burnley. It's just going to be exactly the same thing. Yeah, I am concerned. I'm concerned with just problems from top to bottom at the club. We have gone from being, a club that maintained its Premier League status for a good number of consecutive seasons,

albeit at a struggle, but that's understandable. We're not one of the rich, powerful teams in the Premier League and having stability and having an identity and having just a consistency in our approach to going up and down, changing a managerial cycle every single time we do the new promotion push, changing our squad inside out. And this season, we have started all over again,

this time we've spent three months appointing a new manager who's not had a preseason. We had a disastrous summer transfer window and as great as a Jamie Vardy sign in it is, we're scrapping around after the transfer window is closed in the free agent market. And we're a side that's got parachute money from the Premier League and we're one of the wealthiest clubs in the championship on paper anyway. And I don't understand how we have got to this stage so quickly and it is alarm. And the collapse on Saturday at home to Bristol City, Burnley fans are a very patient set of fans.

And I think you see this across East Lancashire, actually. A lot of the Lancashire clubs, the fans are pretty patient and we will stick with our clubs. And it just turned. The relationship and the anger turned towards the board and the chairman on Saturday. I was going to say it went towards the board, did it, as opposed to the new manager.

There's sympathy towards him, is there? There's sympathy, but there is also mixed reports as well. I think, listen, on one side of it, Nikki Hayen came in very, very late, and he's been handed the most impossible of tasks. He's not had a chance to strengthen his squad. He's lost some key players.

We sold Zien Fleming, our only recognized striker at the club, who's got any sort of talent or game time, and didn't bring a replacement in. And he's had very little time to jelly side. He's got players who have not got match fitness, and he's not

worked with them pre-season. So there sympathy for that, however, he isn't helping himself either. We have got very muddled team selection, players playing out of position, players who clearly are not performing well and not working in certain structures, still being picked again the game after. He made six changes on Saturday talking about fitness and squad rotation. We're in September, it's game, what, five? This is, and then just what he tells us in his press conferences is that he likes to play with intensity. He's very famous for a very high press. We haven't seen any of that yet. The players look like they don't know what they're doing, the shape and the tactics look disjointed, and there's no

energy. And when we went one-niller up on Saturday, I was expecting to see a game plan. How do we see this out? How do we get our first home win since last October and our first win of the season? And there was just nothing. They were worse after they conceded the goal, and the winner was inevitable. I know you wrote on the BBC Sport website after the draw with West Ham about the level of joy you experienced at that, coming back late on in a pulsating game. Yeah. Was that because, do you think that that performance happened because it was just the opening weekend because it still, or because it maybe still had a slight Premier League feel about it because of the two teams and you both coming down together.

Is that why that had the energy and maybe some of the other games haven't had? Probably. Probably a bit of both, to be honest. It was a cracking fixture to start at the championship weekend. It was very hyped. It was a TV game. Both sides who were battling the Premier League last season. We had players playing who hadn't yet been sold.

So our squad was generally speaking better. It was a home fixture. I think the fans played their part that day. Not this one, but we usually love championship seasons because it's the season we get to win and we get to win titles and it's great and you don't have VAR and it's just a wonderful footballing experience. So all of that all came together

and it was a really great weekend and we came from behind. But that is the only half this season where we've shown any sort of fight or desire at all. And it just has gone from bad to worse since then. The Cup games were really quite pathetic. we're already out of the Carri Bar Cup and our league forms just but again it's a completely different set of players

and a different system and yeah we're stumbling across really good things Elaine played last week against Middlesbury came on for the second half and he put him in a defensive midfield position just in front of the back four and he played absolutely brilliantly

and then this week he puts him back a centre half Kyle Walker's just having an awful awful time of it just doesn't look like he wants to be there. He gets dropped. Connor Roberts comes back in. We look so much better. He gets dropped and Carl Walker comes back in again. So that's when Nikki Hayen's not helping himself.

So he won't escape liability for criticism for very long. He has to pull something out the bag here. In terms of the board, then, has there been no sign of any kind of plan at all? Does Burnley, like not patronisingly at all? But Burnley have been, they've done this before. they know what it involves going up and down. Like this should sort of be meat and drink to Burnley to an extent.

Yeah, it should. And that's what we were expecting. I say this with a little bit of tongue and chie, but you guys have heard me say this before. We almost get excited. We have the reverse of the relegation. When we get relegated in the Premier League, it's like, hooray, we get the championship seasons back.

And then we go up and you're like, oh, Premier League. It has gotten that stage. So we were really excited coming into this season. And the problem that we've got at the moment is that there doesn't appear to be any progress being made under this current board. We seem to be going backwards. And if you analyse, which I did on our show recently, if you analyse the three relegation seasons since ALK took over when the Daesh season, when Daesh got sacked and Mark Jackson took over, Vincent Coffney's relegation, Scott Parker's relegation, they've gone worse. So every single season, we've had less points. And I think the biggest concern for me, for fans, sorry, at the moment are two things.

number one we are in a lot of debt the club is highly leveraged and it has been and uh you know since the takeover um we have historically sold all of our assets within the club to pay and service the interest on our loan payments i don't necessarily have a problem with that as long as you keep churning that over but right now we don't have a sellable asset at the club i can't i can't tell you one of the burnies squad who will go for 17 18 million like zan fleming did he was the last of our talent to go out and be sold and a lot of our players that we're getting in are loan signings or loans with an option. Do you worry, sorry finally Natalie,

given everything that you've said there, you talked about the patience of East Lancashire. Yeah. But do you worry that you could be the next one caught in the malaise that has hit Blackburn, Preston? Yeah. And maybe, I know it's not East London as well. Yeah, of course, of course we do.

We've been riding a wave of success recently and we've been using our Premier League outside of the top sides in the Premier League our source of revenue isn't from multi-million pound commercial deals it's from TV rights and you need to go up into the Premier League in order to survive and we've been using our Premier League seasons

in order to service the debt on the club and also to survive as a business if we go down to League 1 next season that obviously sounds dramatic right now after five games but we're not looking good or we don't get anywhere near playoffs. We've got one more season of parachute money and nobody's investing in Burnley.

Can I just give Natalie a tiny bit of hope? Just when you thought you Every single episode I get with this at the end. I thought I'd got away with it. Just when you thought your season hadn't started badly enough. Go on Chris. Give you a bit of positivity. I think the guy you signed from Celtic,

if he, Rio Hattati, I think he's an excellent player. I think he lost his way a little bit at Celtic. When he first went there, I thought they'd pay Premier League football easily. But I think he's an outstanding footballer, and that's something for Burnley fans to be happy about. There you go, Natalie.

What happened then? Look at that. You end for once. You're not as bad when you're getting sympathy off Chris Sutton at the end of the segment. Make sure you clip it all. Just a little bit of example of the power of his motivational speaking. That's what that is. Thank you, Natalie.

See you soon. Natalie, probably with us from the No No No Never. podcast. That's it. Thanks to Rory Chris and Connor Champions League back this week. Five Live has commentary of Porto Manchester City on Tuesday, followed by Liverpool against Athletico Madrid on Wednesday. The EFL has a brand new home. Hello and welcome to 72 plus the home of the EFL from Five Live Sport. Aaron Paul and Jovey McEnough tackle the biggest stories from across the championship, League 1, League 2 and Beyond. A minimum of one week's wage wage is fine and we may be even write to your wife and tell you what you've been fined if you carry on.

And the biggest talking points from across the football league. I always spoke while I jobe and enjoyed working with him. It's my show too now, but yeah, thanks for that. Search 72 Plus, the EFL podcast on BBC Sounds. Support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank. Choose the smart way. Wise.

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