Football Daily - MNC: Arsenal's slump and can Slot turn Liverpool around?

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Mark Chapman, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Phil Jagielka assess how damaging Arsenal's FA Cup defeat at Southampton could be for the rest of their season. German football writer Rafa Honigstein joins the podcast to look at Tonda Eckert and why Germany is bringing through so many young coaches.With Virgil Van Dijk saying Liverpool "gave up" during their defeat at Man City, the panel discuss whether Arne Slot can turn things around.And assistant coach of Iraq, Rene Meulensteen, tells us about his side's extraordinary qualification for the World Cup.TIMECODES 00:30 Arsenal's disappointing cup exits 17:15 Southampton's excellent display 19:00 Rafa Honigstein on young German coaches 32:18 Did Liverpool "give up" at Manchester City 43:08 Rene Meulensteen on Iraq's World Cup qualifcation

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image. And we do this by digging through the BBC's vast archives. Discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Jochi.

I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives, wherever you get your podcasts. It's the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast. Welcome to the Monday Night Club, Phil Jagealka, Rory Smith and Chris Sutton with us this evening. The F.A. Cup will dominate. We'll talk about Southampton a little bit later on.

Liverpool and Manchester City. That leads win. Let's start with Arsenal then. We will praise Southampton a lot in a... little while but from Arsenal's perspective which performance was worse Phil for you the NFL

Cup final defeat or what happened at Southampton slightly different players I appreciate it's a tough one to call to be honest I think the manner in which they lost obviously we all know if Man City do turn up they're a really tough team so you can sort of I wouldn't say

let them off because obviously if you're an Arsenal fan it's a cup game you'd expect them to have tried to go out there and bring the first piece of silverware home and then arguably one of the better draws they could have had to get themselves into semi-final. Again, you've just lost a chance of a quadruple now. It's obviously trying to

do the treble. They're the sort of things that you want to be doing and the team itself massively outperformed. Which one would worry you more Chris? An EFL Cup final where it never felt like they got going against a title rival

or an FAA Cup defeat with some squad players in, but where they were all over the place at times. Yeah, but it was the, the EFL Cup final was Arsenal first team, and the FA Cup was essentially Arsenal's reserves. And that's the big difference. And I've got a bit of sympathy for Mikhail Arte deuter, really. I mean, it's easy to say he picked the wrong team,

and he clearly picked the wrong team because Arsenal are out of the FA Cup, but he has to prioritise, doesn't he? And they've got the Champions League against Sporting Lisbon. which he has to think about. But when you see, well, I mean, you were there, Mark, but the team which Arsenal put out against Southampton, and if you were to, if we were to all name an Arsenal first team this season, you'd probably name one player in that starting lineup for Arsenal,

who was Gabrielle. You wouldn't name Martin Erdogard then? Well, I think that's a debate, but... Well, that's why I asked it. Based on Premier League appearances this season, the most Premier League appearances were Arsenal have gone for it.

You'd have Rea Ringgoal, Tim Busiliba, Gabriel, Califiori, Reis Zubimendi, Eza, Saka, Jokores, Trossard. That's the Arsenal first team based on Premier League

appearances. O'Degard is sort of in the mix with Ezra. In Capio's had 17 appearances. And other than that, I mean, you look at the team which he put out, I think Lewis Skelly hasn't,

or he's played one Premier League, started one Premier League game this season. Norgaad hasn't started a game this season. Ben White is another one. He's sort of been on the periphery. Havert's has been injured.

So I get all that. So the issue then is, you know, can the team come together? Are they going to be cohesive? And, you know, they certainly weren't. But I get why he prioritised Mikhail Arte de. But it's totally different to the, to the EFL Cup final, where they had a bad day. And as Phil rightly pointed out, Manchester City on their day,

can be absolutely anybody. Arsenal didn't turn up. City did. It's just, I don't think it's going to affect the Premier League at all and the way that Arsenal should view this. I would be shocked if the players are really feeling nervous at this moment in time in terms of the Premier League. I looked at their fixtures. I think their fixtures compared to Manchester City are a little bit more generous than City. So they've just got got to keep their composure. But you've still got two defeats on the spin for a team that hadn't really looked kind of...

Two different teams. A club that hadn't really looked like it was phased by anything. And that surely given the stage of the season that we're at, as you go into April, you know, Citi on nine points off, but there's a game in hand. There's a meeting at the Etter had, which is April the 19th, I think. There is a psychological element to the next six weeks for Arsenal. And this isn't an ideal way to start it. And as much as I take your point that, that, yeah,

Gabriel was probably the only player who started on Saturday night, who you would say is in Arsenal, has been in Arsenal's first team this season and is a kind of first-name-on-a-team-sheet type player. It wasn't a load of kids. It had one actual child in it, but it wasn't a load of kids. Who was their best player? Who was their best player? It was an experienced team who didn't,

and I think this is the bit that's really significant, they weren't sucker-punched by Southampton. They were outplayed by them. And even after the equalizer, you kind of think, well, this is the point where the big Premier League team goes on and gets the winner

and we all trying to forget, you know, we're very nice to Southamson, we're a little bit patronising, and then we forget that they gave them a real going over. But Southamson sort of thought, well, actually, do you know what, we've shown we can live with you

for the first 75 minutes, so we'll just keep on doing that and see what happens. And they get a winner that they completely deserve. And I think that, the manner of the defeat is probably the bit you'd be concerned about. But the manner of the defeat in terms of, and we mentioned this several times on Saturday night, Phil,

Tonda Eckert, in the build-up to the game, saying it was fun analysing our soul and trying to work out ways that they could cause them problems. And we all kind of went, yeah, but where are you going to do that? And they did. They went longer, they turned them and got in behind them. They did have a plan. Now, is that, if you're born with, you going, well, that's interesting. possibly but I think again I think Chris's point you know if they go along each other and turn them

and they put out the first 11 I think the two centaurals probably eat up the goalkeepers a bit more assured you know it may be doesn't happen I think it's strange I think when you change that many players I've been in a team where it's a fresh team and you've changed so many players and it's literally like playing with a bunch of strangers because you've not played with him for so long and sometimes it doesn't go well we have got to say well played to southampton

they tactically came up with a great plan and outplayed a Arsenal B team. Hang on, right, let me go back to that then. Well, the A team, I don't think the A team would have been, they may have been surprised, but I think they'd have dealt with it a lot better. So you're Gabrielle, you're normally alongside Sileba, right?

And what are we saying? Left Back Califuri and then the guy behind you. Yeah, right, but you're Gabrielle, you suddenly have, well, you don't suddenly have because Muscair has been there a bit, or you train with them, and this, that and the other, if that's you and you've played the same centre half for a long time

and then someone else comes in for that are you really going to be jumping for each other's ball and flicking it accidentally flicking it on and this and the other but the thing that makes a good solid defence is obviously the chemistry and the continuity of playing together

so yeah we're talking small margins here I'm not talking you're going to play a four out of ten as opposed to an eight out of ten but you may be a little bit unsure and as soon as that uncertainty creeps in as it did and even that you can go back to the goalkeeper then he obviously made

a mistake in the final that creeps in. So you lose that air of sort of you're going to keep a clean sheet. You're almost expecting, oh no, what's going to go on now? So it's amazing how quickly you can go from being so super confident to sort of being a little bit anxious. Let's hear from Mikhail Artaicester. This is what he had to say after the match to Kelly Summers.

Well, first of all, we have to congratulate South Anton to be there in Wembley. We are not. The team, I think, had some very good moments. We didn't capitalize on those moments. and the way we consider the goals obviously is not at the level that we have shown and that's the reason we have lost the game. Why do you feel like you weren't at the levels that you have shown this season tonight? No, in the way that we consider the goals I set.

Did it surprise you perhaps how direct Southampton went at times by passing? No. Why do you feel that you weren't defensively at the standards then that you have been? Because we didn't manage the long balls well enough, which is something very strange. The first start, we just let the ball through us and they are one. against one. The way we can see the second goal, it was very similar. Very difficult to explain, but it happened

as well credit to them. How do you pick your team up from that? Because of course you spoke about using the league cup finalists. They already done it in the dressing room. What was said? That's the stays in the dressing room. But what did you see from your team in the dressing room then that makes them know?

It wasn't giving much weight, really. Isn't the point as well is that certain things Rory, and you mentioned this in Southampton's performance, certain things that it doesn't matter whether you're a squad player or a first choice you would expect players to be doing. They didn't do. I think, I take the point that Phil and Chris have made on the squad players,

but yeah, I think there were certain, I don't know, there's certain mistakes that Ben White missing the header and stuff. Sometimes that just happens. And it's really hard to say, well, this is Arsenal kind of, Arsenal are getting really nervous and really anxious the climax of the season because Ben White missed times ahead of it.

It can happen. It doesn't happen very often because Ben White is a international quality footballer. I think I'm just surprised by the one thing that has kind of characterized

Arsenal this season is their depth. That's the advantage they've got on everybody else is they've got we've been saying all season they've got a squad

that has two or sometimes three players in every position that seems to have been a deliberate strategy because that's what you need to survive. in the Premier League and the Champions League and the domestic Cups.

They got to the final of the Carabar, the quarterfinals of the FA Cup. They should get to at least the semifinals of the Champions League. They are nine points clear at the top of the Premier League. They've built a squad to compete on four fronts.

I'm not sure if you do that and you get praise for that being your sort of superpower, you then get knocked out by a championship team and say, oh, it was only the fringe players. That's not the point. Yeah, I couldn't agree more

that the squad looks really healthy. but again I think if Michael had his time again he maybe wouldn't change eight players maybe next time changed four or five so I think the difference is he didn't want to be caught short by injury suspensions knowing really important games

whether it be Champions League Premier League games FA Cup in the latter stages so I think he built the squad purposely for that but again it's funny you know because they got the draw that was Southampton if they had got a draw like Liverpool or they got another Premier League team I don't I guess I don't reckon he makes many changes

but I think because he's hoping that he can get away with resting a few players with the schedule that's coming forward because it's a championship team because he feels like the players that he put out there are more than capable of getting him through the tie I think in a stupid way getting a championship team was the worst thing that could have happened to Mikkel and Arsenal. The way Liverpool are going at this moment in time

he might have left Gabriella out as well and just played a kid there. I think the strength and depth thing, Rory's right I banged on about that, about the strength of Arsenal squad, and I have banged that drum a lot this season. But then you didn't at the start? Well, I did talk about Arsenal strength and that. That's why I thought they'd end up winning the Premier League,

but I do think Rory's point about, you know, losing to Southampton and players not quite being match-ready. It's difficult when you're on the periphery. You know, it really is. The thing is, we're, we're not doing this, but in many ways, you know, we're, we're sort of making Southampton out to be a really lower league team. And they're not, you know, this is, this is a team. No, I know we're not, but, but, you know, the way we're talking in some ways we are. But Southampton are a team with great momentum, absolutely flying since the new manager has

gone in there. And, you know, when you actually strip everything back, I don't think it's such a great surprise that they beat Arsenal's second team because they are a well-organized, slick outfit, a team which is grown in confidence the longer the season has gone on. And Arsenal, on the day, just didn't connect, didn't click. And, you know, individuals let them down. So, I mean, that's, you know, and that can certainly happen.

But in the end, if you're an Arsenal fan or an Arsenal player and you're in for a quadruple, and then you think, well, okay, that's gone. But if you were to pick two trophies or two competitions to go out of, you'd pick the EFL and the FA Cup. It's just, you know, I suppose now you're thinking, well, Champions League, good draw, Premier League.

That's what all the Arsenal fans want. I was talking to an Arsenal fan last night, and Arsenal have never won the Champions League, but this Arsenal fan wanted the Premier League over the Champions League this season, which is, I mean, that's a debate to be had, but I thought that was, It was quite interesting. The quadruple, the mere mention of the word quadruple

is designed so that you fail to meet that bar so you can get criticised no matter what you win. That's why the quadruple exists. No one has ever won a quadruple. The fact that Arsenal has missed out on a quadruple. Celtic won five trophies in a season. No one in the Premier League has ever won. I'm not sure anyone in any of Europe's major leagues

has won a quadruple. I might be wrong. Hang on Celtic. Well, my God. Oh my God, did you just say, there's five major leads and Scotland is not one of them that's just a thing

so they win the European Cup and that that's not a major In 19th they win four trophies in 67 I think they won five I think five I can't remember but it was five

so there you don't right the no Premier League team has ever won the quadry report congratulations to Celtic Lisbon Lions of 1967 I'm sure they'll be delighted

that they've been brought up in the context of this conversation. But it's unfair to say, oh, Arsenal have missed out on a quadruple because they lost the Carribeau Cup final and they lost the Southampton at the weekend. Because that is setting a bar that is too high to judge them by. And Chris is totally right that if you said to an Arsenal fan, you will win the Premier League this season at the start of the season,

everyone would have been completely delighted. But I think the issue that Artetta is going to have to deal with, and I'm sure he will deal with it because they have passed every psychological test so far this season. is that there will be some little bit of doubt on the back of two straight defeats because they've not been through that. I'm not sure they've lost two games in a row all season.

So there will be a little bit of, he will have to change his message a little bit for the players. Sporting should be a relatively kind kind of way to bounce back. But they won't want to let the rot go any further, because that's when you do start to get a problem. There won't be down. Can I just say? Yeah, you can.

But I have the fifth trophy. Which do you want first? Which do you want first? Do you want to make your point? No, make your point. No, make your point. I've forgotten what my point was. No.

Go on. The fifth. No, I don't want to start an argument or anything here or a pile on. Okay. But the fifth trophy that Celtic won that year was the Glasgow Cup. Okay. But it was, it was just, I was just pointing out factually that Celtic have won five trophies. season to a well-respected journalist.

And the Glasgow Cup is, or was, a football tournament only open to teams from Glasgow. That's what's called the Glasgow Cup. It's still a trophy. I know. I'm just, I'm saying, I'm not commenting on it. I'm just putting it out there. Can one more thing? Have you remember what your point was going to be, Chris?

It was about doubt, Chris. Yeah. The lack of it. I don't know the way, I don't know the way Phil would have thought, but I'm pretty sure he'll think the same thing. The doubt won't be

with the Arsenal first team. They lost to Manchester City, for heaven's sake. That's, you know, so when they get the first team back, you know, the confidence will be there.

You know, I think people are looking for things, as everybody does, for why the wheels are going to come off Arsenal in the Premier League. But, I mean, but if you look back

at the last team to drop points in the Premier League, that was Manchester City. That wasn't Arsenal. And you look at Manchester City's run, before they beat a poor Liverpool team and beat Arsenal. The run wasn't great, but now we're saying Manchester City are flying now. I couldn't agree anymore.

I think the change room would be absolutely fine. They'll be fully focused on the midweek game, obviously again, sporting. And then they'll just want to get back to winning ways at Bournemouth. I'm sure us as a country, as the press and everything else, will blow that game up to some sort of a must-win at Bournemouth. But realistically, they're in a fantastic position. Like I say, a couple of hiccups along the way in a nigh on impossible task of the quadruple shouldn't mean that changing room is anything but positive.

Southampton, they were excellent, Chris, in everything that they did. Yeah, I mean, they've had a remarkable season, you know, with the Will still starting off as manager. And then I've got to say, I've not heard of Tom Dereka before and him getting the job. And I just assumed he would be, you know, a sort of stock. gap for a period and they'd go for a bigger name they didn't they stuck with him he had an incredible start didn't he I think the one six have his first seven or whatever he started as caretaker didn't he yeah yeah but then you just thought you know the fact with respect I hadn't not that I know everybody in the game but the fact that you know he wasn't a household name and

whatever I mean the start obviously helped and then then the faith in him has has grown and that just, you know, the result against Arsenal has really put his name up in the lights. And he's had a, I mean, I had a look at his background today. I mean, he was an analyst at the start and then he's worked his way up the coaching ladder. And, you know, it's all about taking the opportunity when it comes along. And he's certainly done that. Let's talk more about the sort of German profile, or rather the profile of German managers at the moment. and whether there is a deliberate policy

to look for younger men to do this job because Tonda Eckert is 33 is the second youngest manager in the top four tiers of English football the youngest is Fabian Herzler if you then look in the Bundesliga they've got three managers at the moment in their 30s and if you actually look at the German manager Julian Nagelsman is still only 38

Raph Honestine joins us. Does, has there be, has it, is it just fluke that it's happened like this? Or has there been a deliberate policy to look in different directions, Rath? I think it's been going on for a long time. I mean, if you think back of Thomas Tuchel, he got the mines job by winning the under-19s with mines. And then from Mines, he went to Dortmund and the rest of history. Similar trajectory for Nagezmann, who was under the under-seventeens. Sebastian Hewness, who's a really rising star in the Bundesliga in Stuttgart.

He came from youth football, first at Hofenheim, then at Leipzig. And it's sort of an accepted path, if you will, that you're going to get promoted, something that doesn't seem to exist in the Premier League or even in the championship. I can't remember, I'm sure there's one or two, but I can't remember the last big name who's come through the system, as it were, as a youth country. coach. It just doesn't seem to happen because I think club owners want to have the ready made coach in most ways. It's no coincidence that Tonda Eckert was promoted at Southampton because they have, of course, the German sporting director in Johannes Spores, who already

worked with him at Genoa when they were part of Triple Seven, and he is part of the Airby, Leipzig, Red Bull group of coaching. He, as you said, worked with Salzburg. He, he, He worked with Alexander Blaisein, who is now at St. Pauli. So there's both a network and a very established path for clubs to not feel too awkward and to risk, too risky, if you will, appointing that kind of manager because it's been done before and very often quite successfully. So are those paths the same, whether you're a youth coach or, say, an analyst? I mean, Chris mentioned Decker as an analyst. He was an opposition analyst for Germany during the... the early part of the 2010s at the Euro's and at the World Cup.

Is it assumed that your football educate, if you're a young man and you haven't had a young woman and you haven't had a playing career, is that the path that's open to you, both as in you don't choose between coaching and analytics, you do both? I think it depends. I mean, we see in a few people start houses, analysts or scouts.

Again, Thomas Tuchel was an opposition scout at Stuttgart because he had to finish his career really early. then worked his way into coaching. And it's the same for Tonda Eckert. He was an analyst, then started coaching with the under-seventeens, and at Cullen, and then at Salzburg and so on and so on. So it's a permeable system, if you will. If you're good enough as the under-17, under-19 coach,

very often you'll get a chance to then coach the under-23s. And from there, it's quite a short jump to the first team, whether that's because your first team needs a new manager and you're the caretaker. Ongo Polanski, now at Brussia, Mention-Glaabach, exactly the same profile. Hurtzler came through as the assistant coach, having coached the youngest side, it's unpowerly. So it's a natural path, if you will, and clubs are very often feeling that there's no risk attached. Because if it works out, it's great.

Everyone's happy. If it doesn't, there's no huge cost involved. You just demote the guy again to the under-23s, 119th, and go for a different profile if it doesn't work out, as it might not with Polansky at the moment at Glabach. Rafi, how much is it because the clubs are thinking that if you're bringing players through from the 19, the 17s, the 19s to 23s,

that having a coach who knows them is actually an advantage? Is it kind of connected to the fact that Germany is a lead that produces players, whereas, as you've kind of alluded to, the Premier League kind of buys everything in? There's certainly an element of that, but I think we have to. to still see how the profile of management or coach is still so different. Despite, you know, the rise of sporting directors and technical directors in the Premier League, you still look at the

bigger clubs and still the profile is very much we appoint a head coach and that guy is going to have a pretty big impact on what the system looks like, what the squad looks like and if it doesn't work out, we'll start again in two, three years. Germany can't afford that kind of big bet on big managers. So having somebody from within the club who's just going to do the job, if you will, of coaching what he has without any pretenses or any airs and graces and saying, I want now the squad to look like this and that is again a way of just keeping everything ticking over because you know even if it does work out, the coach is not going to last more than two, three years at best. And you don't want to start again from scratch. So you want somebody who's

in the system who understands the DNA who's just going to do with work with what they have. And I think that is also what makes German coaches so attractive for European clubs, and I include England and that, it's because they come in and they don't necessarily say, I want this player, I want a squad to look like this. They will coach because that's how they've learned it back home. And that's why somebody like Danir O'Rourl, even Klopp, when he was appointed at Liverpool,

the owners liked that kind of guy because he didn't come with a shopping list of all the guys that he needs, both on the staff and as well in the squad to make the squad himself, he will come and say, my job is to coach, and that's what I've done in the past, and that's what I'm going to do here as well. Are all these coaches like Rangnick, R.B. Leipzig, R.B. Leipzig, R.B. Salzburg and Klop derivative, or are the ones who come through who want to do things like not press a lot? Is it still that defined school? It is a dominant school, but within that there are big differences.

I think, you know, Klop's football and Rangnick's football has differences. Then you have the influence of Guadjola. People like Flick were both influenced by what Kloppin and Rangnick, but also by what Guadjola did. When Flick came to Bayern as KTaker manager, one of the assistant coaches brought back some of the exercises that they had done under Guadjola, and the players absolutely loved it.

And of course, Danny Ruel was the assistant. culture flick. So it doesn't really fit into the, you know, Rangnick mold or Klop mold as well, though he was also before that in that system. So you have those sort of three big, if you will, influences, but there's quite a lot of crossovers and quite a lot of common ideas in that, especially off the ball. Once you have the ball, then our difference is how vertical do you want to be, how quick you want to be, do you want to slow things down. It also depends on the team. It depends on the kind of players you have. If you have to work with a team that's fighting against relegations,

they might not have the most technical of players for you to play beautiful possession of football. You have to be more vertical and so on. But yes, I think there is a, in a broader sense, a German school of coaching, but it's not just about the stuff that happens on the pitch in terms of the tactics and formation and so on. I think it's also the man management and crucially managing the owners. Germany, they are owners, but there are people in the board and so on. And I think that's what German coaches, by and large, have done pretty well because they know that they can't take themselves too seriously

and have to be part of the organisation and company men, if you will. Do you think we are a bit more with our coaches and managers what's going to happen in the next transfer window? I know that's a very broad brushstroke. I think, yeah, and I think the point we've made, that some managers accept it, especially in Germany, that they are part of an organisation. they've got someone to answer to

whereas I think we do a lot in the Premier League we go out and spend a lot of money on a new manager and he gets, I wouldn't say almost too much power but he gets everything and he doesn't have to really answer to someone whether that works or doesn't work, you know, I've worked under coaches I've worked under managers, sometimes it's

easier one way or the other but I think with what you're saying there is they sort of bind to an idea that I'm going to be part of this process for how long we'll have to wait and see to see obviously how well we do then the next person that comes in eyes into the process. Again, sprinkles his little bit of magic on top. Whereas I think with

England it's very much, as you said, they want success yesterday, every club wants success yesterday, and they're prepared to pay the top dollars to the foreign coaches to come in and do it. And the point actually, Chris, I'm assuming I'm working off an accurate list here, and if I'm not, I'm sure Southampton fans

will tell me immediately, that all the permanent players that they brought in were done in the summer. Nobody permanent has come in. under Tonda Ecker and they brought one player in on loan which was Laring at the end of the January

transfer window and now they of course moved Adam Armstrong on but apart from that he is working with the same group yeah I think that that's fascinating and that's where maybe there's an element of sympathy

for Will still that you know he may argue that he wasn't given and given long enough for the players who were brought in to really gel and Tondereka as, you know, clearly got them all singing off to the same hymn sheet. But yeah, it's, you know, it's that model. I think the model stuff which Phil said about, you know, the way managers in England have been viewed with I want total control.

And now the way that the game has changed, well, you know, with the sporting director, it is totally different. One thing which I wanted to ask Raffa about the Bundesliga and the recruitment of managers, it seems that playing careers count for absolutely nothing. Is that right where they're looking more in the Bundesliga at the skill set? And that's where the age profile and it being a younger age is maybe why that? Because, you know, the Tondareka, the analyst sort of the start he made, I don't know Herzler did have a, he wanted to play football, but didn't make it. But that's a different skill set.

How are, you know, are there many former players in Germany sort of wanting jobs and what have you, but they just don't, they don't view it that way in the Bundesliga? No, I think it's opened up. I think the fact that about 20 years ago, German football just was prepared to look a little bit beyond the classic profile of the former coach who just comes in and just by force of nature or over his experience is going to be a good coach as well, former player. I think that has changed and now there's just more opportunity for other people to break into the system and that in theory should also make it harder but also then of course

create more quality for those who do come through. You still have, of course, the advantage if you've been a former player, if you've been a legend at the club. Olga Polanski, who I mentioned was a former player at Glapach, he got a bit of a head start getting appointed in those youth roles, which have now passed away for him to be the head coach, albeit probably until the end of the season. So these players, these kind of coaches still exist,

but they now have to compete with people who are there simply by virtue of the quality of their work, not because they have a name, not because they have the right friends. and I think that's created at quite a virtuous. Maybe meritocracy is maybe too strong a word, but certainly in an industry where knowing the right people is probably not going to be enough to last enough. You might get your foot in the door,

but once you're in there, you're going to have to compete with sort of football crazy, obsessive, like the Tuchos, like the Nagans, among people who live in brief football 24-7 and work so much harder because they don't have the charisma and the aura of being a former world. class player. And as a former player, you have to take these guys on and those who do and do well,

like Vincent Company, for example, he's not German, but he's doing very well because he has a complete package of the experience, the CV, and all the modern tactics and so on. You're going to do well, but you're going to have people behind you, pushing you really hard. Raf, thank you very much. Coming on. See you soon. Ralph Honolish Sam with us on the Monday night club. On big lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Farn. George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image. And we do this by digging through the BBC's vast archives.

Discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives, wherever you get your podcasts. On BBC Sounds. It's all right.

On five live sports. This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily podcast. Let me read this email that's come in on MNC at BBC.co.com. From Matt, as a Liverpool fan of 40 odd years, it doesn't come naturally for me to want a manager-sact. And in addition to that, last year when Diogo passed, I'd mentally written off this season as I thought it would have an effect on the players and staff.

And I'm still of the same opinion. but I know I'm very much in the minority of the Reds fan base. If he can get something in Paris this week and then beat Fulham on the weekend, he may have temporarily kept the walls from the door. If not, the writing is on the wall. And those subjects have things Rory that we've discussed many times on the Monday Night Club this season, and rightly so. But they and he look like they're in trouble a bit.

Yeah, and look, the Jocet thing is impossibly complicated. and I think a lot of Liverpool fans have had a similar kind of experience that the desire to say this is almost a free pass but then watching it kind of play out is you can't necessarily control your emotional reaction to it. I think there were three things that were really bad for Slot on Saturday, leaving side the performance. One was the pity whistle on 90 minutes and four seconds.

I think Michael Oliver was the referee. He did not play any injury time in the second half. He thought Liverpool had suffered enough. that is not. That's not great. The second was the site of the away end, which had, I think, 8,000 people in it. It was obviously the FA Cup allocations are bigger. That was at the start, by the end,

maybe 1,000, if you're being generous. That's a lot of people leaving. And the third was, I think, Sobber's lie said there was no fighting spirit. Van Dyke said they gave up. Van Dyke said they gave up. And that follows on over the course of this season, him saying that performances have been unacceptable. and that panic has kicked in

and that something has been lacking. They're from different post-match interviews. And Slot, Funilov, said something very similar and it kind of got kind of overwhelmed by Sober's Lion Van Dyck who were a little bit more dramatic in their language. But Slot said in the press conference afterwards that, and his reading of the game, I think, was pretty accurate.

It was, for the first 35 minutes, Liverpool were pretty good. They were then dreadful for 20 minutes, 25 minutes. And after that, and this is not quite verbatim, words, but it's the gist. Both teams accepted it was 4-0, which is very much what happened. Like watching a game, you can tell when everyone's just decided, right, this one's probably over, no one.

There's not a huge amount of point, kind of really trying here. City were, you know, doing what they had to do. They were keeping Liverpool at arm's length. That's all they had to do. Liverpool were going through the motions. But to hear a Liverpool manager say that, that's pretty damning. To say, actually, we just accepted we were getting beaten 4-0,

and that was the best we could hope for in that situation. I think the sentence, if he can get something in Paris, suggests that things are pretty desperate, because I don't know if you've watched PSG this season, but they're a lot better than Liverpool. I think the issue for Slot now is the club want to keep him, the club want him to succeed, the hierarchy of the power brokers in Boston and in Liverpool,

think that he is still the coach who won the Premier League at the first attempt, that he has not become a bad manager overnight. They see themselves as inherently, and they will not make emotional decisions. And that has stood them in really good stead for the last 10, 15 years. You can't argue with their process. But to me, an idiot, the only thing I can think of is that if you stick with Slot,

even if you reinforce the squad in the summer, the first time Liverpool go behind at Anfield next season, there will just be mutiny across the stadium. And I don't think that's sustainable. So it's really hard to, it feels knee-jerk, it feels reflective. and it feels like to be honest, like you're kind of not giving him the space to mourn and grieve and the respect to what happened with Schottor that he needs.

But I just don't see how you can get it back from here. Some of that post-match reaction, and Rory's talked about on the slots sort of accepting, right, the defeat, the gave up from Van Dyke is, feels damning to me. And I'm coming to you on this because, you, a bit like Van Dyke, would have been one of those put up for post-match interviews

after terrible performances. There are certain footballers where, you know, he's like, he's coming out. The Green Reaper, that's right. He's been like the Green Reaper. Yeah, yeah. He will have known that he was going to be the one coming to give that interview

probably at 3-0, and he would have known what, it's not a throwaway line, is it? I feel sorry because you caught between sort of rock and hard place, you will be absolutely raging. Obviously he gave a penalty away. He didn't probably perform as well as he liked.

He's then got to come out as the captain. And again, you can't, as that person who represents the club, you can't protect your players at that moment in time because everyone's seen the game. You can't trick people into thinking we were unlucky or if this would have gone this way or this would have gone that way.

So you've got in the back of your mind that basically we have been really poor today. so I probably need to leave a bit on my teammates because that's how the fans that have travelled to London that have paid all this money to have gone down to see it so I don't think it's a case of you trying to cast all about it. You've literally, he's the only spokesperson

as a players and he's basically... Because there's nothing worse as a fan. There's nothing worse as a fan where your team has been thrashed and somebody comes out and goes, yeah, we're really sorry, I'd like to apologize to the fans. You want to see some emotions. You want to see some hurt. How he's said it may not been the best way

in the world, but he's basically letting the fans know that they all know that they've underperformed and let them down and he probably doesn't feel quite the same pain as the people having to get the train home or the bus at one. But they're all feeling sort of in together and unfortunately that's how

it's been in quite a lot of the games this season. That's the really weird thing because I think Van Dyke alluded to this. It's obviously not the first time he's had to kind of be wheeled out in defeat but it's also not the first time he said well words to the effect of we gave up or there wasn't the right attitude or we didn't respond

well enough. And I find it strange that it's happened so often in such similar ways. I mean, Saturday was quite a bad example of it. And they seem unable. And the slot will get the blame for this, but it strikes me it's probably the players as well. They seem unable to work out how to solve it. I agree with that. And I wonder, Phil, would you have chosen, or, you know, have you chosen different words? When he says, he could have said the team is lacking in a bit of belief. The team is lacking in a bit of confidence. We're not going through a good time at this minute. But as soon as you go down the sort of attitude, we gave

up route, then I think there is alarm bells ringing. I do. I think that's the worst thing he could have said. I do think that. For him or for the rest of the squad? For the whole squad. There's other ways you could have framed it, basically. And then for the manager

as well. And you know, he can turn round and say, which he did say, you know, we let the manager down. But essentially it's that it's, you know, people are all viewing Arna Slot at this moment in time. And the one thing which I can't quite work out about Liverpool

and I'm mixed with Arna Slott because he did win the Premier League and the way the Liverpool owners are thinking and giving him more time. But they spent a fortune last summer and when you look at the group of players and you look at the squad, do you think, well it's still a talented

squad but if the team are in regression this season, how much will they have to spend a game? to then actually for then Arnold Slott to write the wrong of this season and I can't honestly work that out. I'll play devil's advocate. I think if Arnold Schlott walked in there and said,

look, give me next season. I think he says, give me another cent of half or two, give him a strike force that's fit. I'll maybe tinker it and you'll see a different team. Whether that'll make a difference or not, but I think that's what he'll argue. I think they should have got a cent of half in the summer. They didn't.

They've not had East Sack. okay, he wasn't playing great before he got injured, but they've not had him. Obviously, we know the news that Sala won't be there next season, so potentially that could be a slightly different formation or maybe a bit of a less of a headache

of how to play him and things like that. So I think if you're on a slot and you're going in and speaking to your board, I think that's how you sell, I would say sell the dream, but I think that's what you'd say. Sign me three players, a couple of defenders,

maybe another forward option, and he'd probably back himself. And the right back situation is, you know, that's been, you talk about the centre half, the right back has been an issue. But then I suppose the owners could turn around and say, well, how much is that going to set us back? 450 million and the team has gone into regression, why should we give you another 300 million or whatever?

I think there's another big problem as well. I manager that's out of his job. That's a massive favourite at Anfield as well. Yeah. You know, like, you speak. The longer that Shabia L'Oontso is out there. Doesn't really help him, was it? I was at the latter, and I didn't hear it myself,

but I saw suggestions that the, the way end had been singing Alonso's name, which feels pretty significant. Well, that's, what do you mean, a suggestion? They either were or they weren't. Who suggested it to you? I didn't hear it, Chris, but it's sometimes you don't hear every song that happens in a stadium. And who suggested it? Who?

Just saw people on various social media platforms saying, oh, this is bad, you know, or this is good, they're saying, they're making it clear what they feel. I'm just saying that I can't verify those reports. And in this age of disingen information in AI, Chris, it's important that we only say things we can verify. I think by all accounts, Liverpool aren't sold on Alonso. The ownership and the sporting directors, and I think there's question marks over Michael Edwards' future, Richard Hughes's future as well, just as there

should be given kind of, if you're saying the recruitment wasn't good enough, then... Sorry, question marks from internally about their future or rather they... No, externally, I don't know. And both their contracts are up next year. So you'd have thought that there's no kind of long-term security there for anybody at the moment. But if you're saying that the slot was sent into the season and it feels completely right with a squad that wasn't kind of equipped to do what it, wasn't equipped to do the things that the club wanted it to do, then that's someone's decision.

That ultimately that is someone's responsibility, if not necessarily their fault. And that would point the finger at Richard Hughes and Michael Edwards, who are in charge of signing the players and building the squad. But I think they always saw it as kind of as a two, window or two summer job rebuilding whether they're still around to do it, whether slots are around to do it,

but by all accounts, they're not convinced that Alonso is the right fit. Let's talk a rack next on the Monday Nightclub. They beat Bolivia to become the 48th and final team to qualify for this summer's World Cup. So that's their first in 40 years. Their last one was also, well, it was fully held in Mexico 40 years ago,

so that's where it'll partly be this time, of course. they had a parade through Baghdad over the weekend the players got a huge welcome, open top boss, former Manchester United Assistant and now Iraq Assistant Reni Munnstein judges is on the Monday Night Club. Lovely to see you. How are you? Congratulations. Thank you very much, sir, Mark. I'm fine, thank you. Good. That is, I mean, to qualify for a World Cup anyhow

is an achievement, but to qualify, given the logistics and the current situation, is in some ways beyond belief, isn't it? It is. It is short from a miracle, Mark, if you could say it that way. But I think a lot of people don't even realize that every time I say this,

it said that game against Bolivia was our 21st game. And if you look at it, then you think that the World Cup is, in my opinion, the highest platform where every player and every coach wants to compete at.

And you think that the teams in Europe only have to play six to eight World Cup qualifiers. And maybe if you have to play off, you might have to play 10. We have to play 21. So we were almost getting masters in playoff games because we had obviously the playoffs that were held in Saudi. There were six teams left. One group was hosted by Saudi, Indonesia and us.

The other one was Qatar, UI, and Oman. And in my opinion, you know, playoff games should always be a neutral venue, you know, to make sure you've got a level playing field, or it is a way and a home fixture, but that wasn't the case. So that was questionable, to say the least, because we had to play in Saudi in front of 65,000 home fans, which we drew nil-nil, but we just missed out on one goal, and that made us having to play Uwee home in a way, and talking about, you know, extra time winners and seeing it through. That second game, we won 2-1 by a penalty in the seventh minute

at home, which then qualified us for the intercontinental playoff against Bolivia. But it was a journey to say the least because the conflict made it that the Iraqi-based players couldn't fly out because the airspace

was shot. So they had to collect them all from different parts in Iraq to get on a bus trip for more than 20 hours to Amman in Jordan, to then jump on a charter flight that was delayed for more than 24 hours to then fly to Monterey. And they got there Sunday night and basically the first two days we could just throw away.

Luckily, we only had to play the next Tuesday, but the first two days were a ride-off. And then you need to try to see how they are and what kind of frame of mind they are and because you have to address the situation because of the families are at risk and everything. And you need to try to get them to focus on the job in hand. but we managed to do that and it's fantastic for the nation because it gives them energy, it gives them hope,

it gives them something to be proud of for many years to come. It's just at the end of that answer in some ways it's very difficult to know where to go next, René, just because of everything that you've said there and different things that you could pick out. When the players eventually got there and you are there in that group,

because of everything that is going on and what they are going through, and what their families are feeling in the region, do you in some ways have to let them go at their own pace, really? Yes, but at the same time, you need to not just not talk about it. You need to make sure that you give it a place as best as you can, and you need to make sure that they know you are there for them,

24-7, if they need help in some kind of form. but actually the fact that they were away from home and they could focus on something completely different because what I really was astonished about how relaxed the group was leading up to that Bolivia game because previously when they've missed out and going to qualify for the World Cup it was because of they couldn't handle the pressure

and especially they lost big games mostly at home and you would think for home fans that would help but it was more of a burden for them than anything else. So playing away in Mexico was actually a good help for them and they could actually, you know, get the mind off of those situations

because of the routines that we had during the day in terms of team meetings, training sessions, etc. So actually the preparation after those two days and after they got there was actually really, really good. Congratulations, Reni. I mean, I don't know a lot about the Iraqi team. Where about most of the players? based and which leagues do they play in?

Sorry for my ignorance here, but... No, no, no, not at all, because I was exactly the same when eventually they... Because your first reaction is when obviously Graham Arnold, who's the head coach and I work with for Australia, I rang me and he said, you know, Iraq is keen and signing... I want to sign me as a head coach, what do you think?

And your first perception straight away is, you know, never in my lifetime. But you need to look through those things. you know, when you need to look beyond it. But those players, Chris, it's a bit of a 50-50 split. 50% are local-based players who play in a local league. But at a sub-standard, sub-standard facilities, training not great. They haven't got the resources that we know in terms of analysts,

you know, the medical side of the game is all substandard. And other players play in other Middle East countries like Saudi, Qatar, or they play in Indonesia, Thailand. And then you got about 15 of them play in Europe. And that's all playing in leagues like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Holland. We got one player, play for Luton, Ali Al-A-Lamari, who's still on the books of Ipswich. But that's the only one, really. So it's a bit of a mixed back.

And not really anybody that plays in a really strong league. And René, of those players, particularly the ones in Europe, how many of those are kind of diaspora Iraqis? I think Ali, I saw an interview with him a few days ago that a lot of them are kids of families who fled the Second Gulf War and who've grown up either in Britain or in Sweden or elsewhere in Europe. What kind of challenges that present to you as a coaching staff

to make sure that they fit nicely with the players who are born in Iraq and still in? interact. That's a really good question. And the answer to that is culture. We are very big Graham and I, and obviously, as you all know, so Alex Ferguson was big on that as well. Culture is everything. You need to create a really good culture and that culture needed to make sure that there was a strong unity. We have to do it together. Although we are in different places of the world, we carry the same crest on our chest and we represent the same crest. And I think we did that really, really well. We communicated that well.

really right from the start because we wanted to explain them what that culture could look like and would look like because at the end of the day, if a culture is put on people, that not necessarily the case that they buy into it, but if you empower them and you make them part of creating that culture, which we did, that's been massive and they have been brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And yes, there is automatically still sometimes that the local players are sort of congregate together. and the same with the foreign players. We didn't notice any kind of negative,

having that being a negative influence in terms of what we saw on the training pitch or doing matches. I mean, you've worked in so many different places in your career, René. When you talk about culture, how much of it can be universal wherever you go? How much, though, has to be unique,

to the country that you are in? Well, you need to look at obviously cultural things that are important to the people and the culture that you're working for. Religion is obviously one of those things and you need to respect that. But there are non-negotiables in certain cultures, you know, like respect for each other, norms, values,

timekeeping. Timekeeping is a simple thing, but it's a basic thing. And I know I've worked in the Middle East for a long, long time, but that is the first thing that every coach struggle. with people don't come on time you know during you know breakfast lunch and dinner they don't come on time in in terms of your team meetings the apparel what they wear you know they just turn up in flip-flops you know what I mean that type of thing but yeah

there are certain certain elements that you have to be really really aware of and respect that and give it a place within that culture although it might not be directly fit with what you're used to but others others are you know are straightforward and And like I said, timekeeping is one of them. Discipline, working hard, you know, trying your best, etc., etc. When you look ahead to now the tournament, this has immediately... I don't want to. No, I think this is one of the best, the best groups at the World Cup.

Because it just has a bit of everything. France, Senegal, Iraq and Norway. I mean, that is a good World Cup group that. I mean, admittedly, René, I'm not trying to win it. I'm just looking at it and going to enjoy it. That is a good group. Let me put things in perspective for you, Mara. Norway, France and Senegal, if you look at the players where they play,

they have a market value between 500 million and over 2 billion. Iraq will not even touch 40 million, and that's including the kitman. And that is what we're up against. Right. So you don't necessarily share my enthusiasm. No. No, no. You're highlighted the challenge.

I'm not, yes, because what we have in front of us is Manchester United versus Grimsby. And on the day, on the day when they don't turn up or any of those nations don't turn up, and we do, and we have the rubber the green, then in football, anything can happen. I mean, we did exactly the same thing with Australia when we did. had France, Denmark and Tunisia. Yeah. And we went around the room, and Graham Arnold asked the players

and other members of staff, what they think? What could he expect from the World Cup? And he asked me as well. And I said, well, there's not one pundit in the world that gives Australia a chance to qualify for the last 16, not one. We will be bottom of the group

in all those pundits. Based on those things, where the players play, et cetera. It says, but that will be our biggest strength. the element of surprise, because nobody expects anything from us. You know, and that is a little bit the same with Iraq. We just need to be coming up, being obviously very, very fit, physically in a very, very good state. And mentally, we need to make sure that we got them in a right frame of mind.

And tactically, we need to be just making sure we've got a good structure, a good defensive structure. René, thank you very much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Congratulations again. And hopefully we will talk at some point during the World Cup. Thank you, Mark. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. Reddy Moon and see with us. On the Monday Night Club after Iraq qualified for the World Cup,

the final team to qualify. Thanks to Chris, Rory and Phil. Five Life Sport will bring you commentaries from the Champions League quarterfinals this week. Tuesday, Arsles' trip to sporting Lisbon, and then on Wednesday we'll have Paris Saint-Germain against Liverpool. I'm Rich Hall, and this is Sports Strangest Crimes presents Confessions of a Super Bowl Streaker

When people ask me what I do I say to them Well, by day or by night The story of one man's mission To conquer the holy grail of streaking The Super Bowl Mark Roberts is too lively

For his body He's just like the entertainer Mark pushes the boundaries Of what is socially acceptable No chance, Texas It's really strict But then the moral thoughts about it What are you about?

Sports, strangers Crimes Presents Presents Confessions of a Super Bowl streaker. Listen on BBC sounds. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image. And we do this by digging through the BBC's vast archives.

Discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Immanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives, wherever you get your podcasts.