Football Daily - MNC: Arsenal's VAR victory & missed chance for Spurs?

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Nedum Onuoha on this week's Monday Night Club.The team start with reaction to Spurs' 1-1 draw v Leeds United which leaves them 2 points clear of West Ham and the relegation zone. Former Arsenal and West Ham defender Matt Upson was at the match, and joins to reflect on the draw as well. Is it a missed opportunity for Tottenham, and could their fight for survival go down to the final day?Then, the panel dissect Arsenal's 1-0 win over West Ham, and the massive call by VAR to disallow West Ham's late equaliser. Was David Raya fouled, should the rules surrounding corners be revamped and has the Premier League become bad to watch? Former assistant referee Darren Cann weighs in on VAR and the state of Premier League set-pieces.And finally, former Hearts Sporting Director Joe Savage joins the pod to discuss the Scottish Premiership title race. How did Hearts recruit some of their top players, what will Champions League football do for the club and could they be caught be Celtic?Timecodes: 00:29 Reaction to Spurs' 1-1 draw v Leeds 04:00 Roberto De Zerbi reflects on Spurs' point 07:25 Was David Raya fouled & did VAR get it right ? 13:15 Jarrod Bowen speaks about the disallowed goal 14:45 Matt Upson & former assistant referee Darren Cann on other fouls in the box 28:13 Is a rule change needed? Has the Premier League become bad to watch? 41:48 Did Arteta's substitutions almost blow it for Arsenal? 46:16 Who does Chris back for the Scottish Premiership? 50:13 Former Hearts Sporting Director Joe Savage joins the pod

This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily podcast. Hello, welcome to the Monday night club. Nadam Anua, Chris Sutton and Rory Smith are with us. We'll talk Arsoul win against West Ham and VAL shortly. But firstly, Spurs won or draw with leads that has put them two points above West Ham and the relegation zone. Matt Upson joins us from the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.

Is there a sense there, Matt, that it's been a missed opportunity for Spurs? 100% given the remaining fixtures, don't you think? If you're West Ham now, you're looking at it feeling a little bit better, looking at their fixtures and what they've got to do and what Spurs have got to do. They're in touching distance of Tottenham still, and this was an opportunity for Spurs to take that out of their hands, and they haven't this evening.

But on reflection of this crazy end of the game, we'll probably come off the pitchfield blessed that they've got a point. Make any difference to you, Nadeem, that West Ham go first in the next round of fixtures? I'm going to say no because I get the feelings to going down to the last day of the season anyway so yeah when they all kick off at the same time that's one we'll see.

Okay, I mean the other factor in all of this Chris is that Tottenham's next game is away at Chelsea and good luck trying to predict what kind of Chelsea you're going to get at the moment and that will be what, three days after the Cup final? Yeah, but there's that I mean there's that needle with that game Chelsea and Tottenham do not like each other.

So, I mean, Chelsea would love to put a big dent into spurs, wouldn't they? Well, yeah, they'd love to push them ever closer to relegation. You're looking ponderous, Rory. Yeah, I think what Chelsea turns up is the big question about that game. But I think West Ham, if you have to be in the situation they're in, their next game is at Newcastle, who are mid-table, nothing to play for, and then they're at home to lead. again, mid-table, nothing to play for.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean anything, as Leeds have just proved. But I'd probably rather that than having to go and face a team, as Chris says, that genuinely would take pleasure in relegating. I don't know. I'll go the other way with that. Because there's a game that you're absolutely 100% up for, you know, because from a Spurs perspective, that is one of their biggest games in any season. And obviously Chelsea will be motivated,

but this is a weakened Chelsea club, you could say, not even a side. They might be coming off having won the FAC, for example. McFarlane and beaten in its Guardiola, yeah. Yeah, that part's also through. Isn't it which Chelsea rather than what Chelsea,

Rory? Language is about communication, Chris. It's either. We all understood what he meant. Anyway, it's a big game. I'm sure they'll be ready for it. And the other thing with all of that

is Everton, Naden, could be back in the race for a European place for that final game of the scissors. I know these are all ifs, but some maybes here.

This is why we love her. I know, but they are. And they could be in the race through a European place. And David Moyes has made that, actually, has made that a big thing for Everton. Yeah, and I respect that completely, and I think the added difficulty with playing Everton,

is Everton have been brilliant away from home this whole season, so they will be more than ready to play spoiler, especially if there's something on the line. Like that middle section is still so, so tight. And I think based on what happens on this week, the games this weekend, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, half the league got something to play for next.

How would you describe the body language, Matt? are those spurs players as they leave the field? Well, I can describe one of him, and it's Kinski, and I'll tell you what, Chappas. He's 10 foot tall with his chest out and a smile on his face. And rightly so, fair play to him because massive game from him for Tottenham this evening. Played really well, good decisions with the ball and made fantastic saves. But the rest of them, yeah, I get the same sense as the crowd.

I think they're okay, but big missed opportunity here, and it really does leave it in the balance big time. Okay, let's get some reaction. Here's Roberto Deserby with John Southal. I think I'm positive, not because we have two points, but I'm positive because we played a good game, not a great game like in Villa Park, but we played a good game and have to win

because we deserve to win. We could lose the game because at the end of the game, they had a chance to win. go one goal up but anyway I saw the right spirit I saw the right mentality we didn't play a great game because I think we felt too much the pressure after the West Time Result yesterday after the polemic and maybe we suffered too much like the referee because the referee I think suffered too much pressure as well I didn't see him calm but

But it's normal, he's a human, he played a good game, not change the result. But I felt maybe wrong, but I felt not to see the referee calm, no? Yesterday was a foul clear, clear, clear, fault. It was just the polemic for nothing because it was clear. And maybe, you know, it's a crucial part of the season for me, for the fans, for the club, all teams and this normal suffer, I think we suffer. My players suffer too much. The pressure, but the pressure is normal in this situation.

And fighting for the relegation is not like fighting for the qualifying Champions League, because we are playing for something very important for us. Is that a concern that maybe they struggled with the pressure? Because two games to go, the pressure is only going to get bigger. isn't it? greater. I don't know. The pressure is for us,

it's for Arsenal, it's for West Ham, it's for Austin Villa. They are fighting for the qualifying Champions League for everyone.

May, April, May, there is pressure in football. Do you feel pressure, no? Yeah, sometimes. Yes. Have a look.

Just to clarify what you were saying before, you were talking about the West Ham game yesterday and that may be affected things today. If I watch the television and I heard was not fault, it's finished football. Finish.

If we discuss if was fault or not, we have to go on holiday or on the park with the dog. Thank you. Okay. BBC sounds. Live spot. This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. We have had so many emails about West Ham's disallow goal at home. to Arsenal yesterday. When it went to

VAR, gosh, you're looking at me first. I am looking at you first, not from a city perspective at all. Just as a former footballer and football fan perspective, when you saw it go to the screen, what were your, did your heart sink? I am neutral, Mark Chapman.

Yeah, no, no, I said, not, I just meant as a football fan. I'm a light blue neutral. Yeah, you are. I'm a light blue neutral. As a football fan, obviously, that felt like a really significant moment, say, you could say for West Ham, say the, the Premier League title, race and so on, but just coming back as an underdog to score in that manner so late in the game, it's huge, but I'm one of those people, like I obviously will expand the conversation, but I do see the file. You know what I mean? I do see it, because there are two things in relation

to Raya, and obviously there are more things that are going on. But the two things after I saw them on righter. I thought, well, I don't see how this is going to be allowed to go on. I know goalkeepers have had a fairly rough time of it over the last few years, you could say. But yeah, I was at this point in some ways, but, chappas you know, you saw the foul, did you see 20

fouls? I saw, I think it was Tadibo pulling his shirt, and then I saw the Pablo one on his arm. And because that's what I was looking for. And then when I stopped looking for that and I watched it generally, I thought, the Premier League's in a great spot, isn't it?

You know, it's just a wrestling thing from set pieces now. And trying to manage that, referee that is nigh on impossible. And the way that they sort of have to make decisions, no one's ever going to be happy. But I think overall, what I will say about that VR decision, I think it just confirmed to me that people always perceive things according to their bias. Well, 100, yes, 100%.

What was the overall mood of callers to 606? Chris? Did it depend on their bias? Which team? depends which team you support. Did you have any neutrals? Neutrals on 606, Mark. I mean, you're better than that, aren't you?

That doesn't happen? No, not really because of the, you know, the implications of that decision. And, you know, you could say it went for Arsenal. I thought it was the correct decision. And that's where you, you know, no matter what stage, of the season we're out, I just think you have to look at

the situation in isolation. Was it a foul or wasn't it? And it was a foul. And I can understand how saw that would have felt for West Ham, the manager and the players. But then if you flipped it and it happened at the other end, they'd be screaming foul. There is a feeling, Rory, and we're going to hear from Jared Bowen in just a moment. And then Darren Kant, a former assistant referee in the Premier League, will join us, who was on match to the day last night,

giving some very interesting opinions on everything that went on. There is a feeling, isn't there, that the Premier League and English football brought last night's situation on themselves? 100%. Yeah. And I think I would agree with Chris and Nadem that it was a foul. It's just weird that that has been allowed for two years and has not been a foul in that period. I thought it was really interesting that within minutes last night, you had people who

aren't necessarily neutral, but don't have an actual horse in this actual race, or either of the actual races, producing what I believe the young people now call receipts. There was the goal on the opening day of the season at Old Trafford that was given despite the fact that Saliber was pinning Al-Tai Bayandir. There was the goal that Gabrielle scored for Arsenal against Villa in December, where he had his arm across Emmy Martinez's chest. There was one, this is my favorite, for West Ham against Everton, where Pablo had his arm across the goalkeeper across Pittford and Thomas Suchet scored.

That was in April, and that goal stood. And I think as much as to me, what I think there's a separate conversation about how many fouls were going on in the box just there were loads. And I've seen West Ham fans making the case that the reason Pablo stuck his arm out was because he was in the act of being fouled

by Leandro Trossard. So Darren might be able to explain why some fouls are more important. than others. But I think the big thing is that for certainly this season, I'd say probably two, since they tweaked the guidance in 2024, there has been a free-for-all in the box.

The reason that has happened is because VAR exists. That is why the Premier League looks like it does. That is why it is a wrestling match. It's because of VAR. And the way they have to referee to make VAR work. But it's not a free-for-all in La Liga or the Bundesweed or the Champions League. And VAR exists there. They haven't tweaked the guidance there.

That's the difference. It's a conscious choice that it seems to have been made in England. I spoke to some to a former referee today about it and just to check that my theory was correct. They tweet the guidance in 2024 to introduce a high threshold for pushing and grappling offences. And the reason they have a high threshold for grappling offences is because you have to use evidence

to summon the referee to the sideline. You have to basically prosecute a case and you can't do that with minor infractions. It has to be substantial offences, which has led to this kind of the raising of the bar, which means everything that doesn't meet that bar goes completely unpunished, which is why the Premier League has turned into

what it's turned into, which some people were like, and I don't. The controversy yesterday was that, for the first time in nine months, somebody enforced the rules. Okay, well, we'll bring Darren in in a moment. Let's hear from Jared Bowen, first of all, with Steve Wilson. When you're looking at a screen for five minutes,

in the end, you're going to find something. that you've been sent over there to look at. You know, it's a lot of grappling. There's a lot of holding in the box. You know, like I said, if you look long enough, I'm sure you'll find something that, you know, we'll give the goal against us. But do I think it's a right decision, no?

But, you know, we have to accept it. The game's done now and we've lost. I know you won't have seen it, but, I mean, if you'd have gone there looking for a foul on Mavro Panos, you would have found one from Declan Rice, arguably a foul from Trossard on Pablo, but that's not what they were looking for. No, and I think that's the frustration.

That's the way's the consistency. You know, it's if no one wants, as a fan, as a viewer, you don't want to be celebrating the goal and then waiting, you know, eight minutes, whatever it was, and then have it taken off you. You know, it's a corner is a physical. The Premier League is physical. It's one of probably the most physical league in the world.

That's why everyone loves it. They want to see the ball and play. They want to see action. And at corners, you have to expect contact, you know. And if you're going to give decisions like that, you have to give all the holding calls in the world. And that's not the way that people, I'm sure, want the game to go down, but certainly if that's the bar that's been set,

surely penalty, listen, I don't want to say, like I've just done in the interview and said, I don't want to sound bitter, I don't want to come out and sound just because we're on the receiving end of it. But last week, we had one with Thomas Suchet getting held at Brentford away that wasn't given us a penalty, which is fine, but then you can't, I don't think you can go and give a decision like that today. So that was Gerard Bowen talking to Steve Wilson on match for the day. Chris and Rory and Nadirme are here. Matt Upson is at Totman. Before I bring Darren in, what's your overriding view of it?

Well, Chappas, I mean, I think Roy makes a point in that you have to enforce one way or the other. And if the legislation comes in which loosens the threshold in terms of it has to be a more significant contact, then that has to be viewed as where the situation is measured. I think it's very, very difficult for the VAR to subjectively call for. things that are necessary, i.e. obvious and are not obvious. I think that's a huge grey area. So while it's impactful, is it obvious? And I think you then get into that territory where you've got to make those decisions under huge pressure to then decide to send the referee. And once the referee goes, as we know statistically, we know what that means. It's it's nailed on that it's going to be

changed. So I don't have that much of a problem where they set the bar. So I'm not saying I dislike the contact or what have you. I think Jarra Bowens absolutely spot on that the Thomas Suche one at Brent for the other week is a penalty. And I think, you know, on reflection, that would be a preferred penalty for sure. Whether or not it's near the ball or not near the ball, it's grappling to the ground. It needs to be penalized. So it's the levels have got to start being set in that sense.

But, you know, if I say do I agree with the decision that it was a foul? I think it is a foul. I think he impedes David Rea. But for me, the. grey areas, how does the VAR decipher whether you send the referee to the screen? It's a subjective call to know whether it's obvious or not. And I wonder, Darren, whether that's the big issue at the moment in that, and it's a bit of a weird one here, because I think the majority of people would say that's a foul, but quite a lot of that same number of people would then also say,

but they've been, and Rory used a young person's phrase earlier of receipts, but There have been other examples over the course of this season and they haven't been given. Dale Johnson on the BBC website is writing that West Ham's is the only goal to be ruled out for jostling and pushing by VAR on review this season. I think Matt makes a very good point. It's very difficult sometimes to ascertain what is clear and obvious. And that is something I think that the Premier League will look at over the summer.

As for yesterday, yes, it's very unfortunate and you've got to feel for West Ham but in the cold light of day there is a clear foul on David Rea. But why haven't the other, Darren, why haven't the others been, West Ham fans would say, why haven't others been given then?

Why is theirs, as Dale Johnson says, the only one? Well, I don't think any two incidents of being the same. And of course, as we know, is a contact sport. I think in particular, this one impeded the goalkeeper so much when he went to catch the ball and his arm is being held as opposed to sometimes there's a little bump on the goalkeeper or maybe an aerial challenge with the goalkeeper.

And some of those are seen as footballing actions and are allowed to take place. You are allowed to challenge. the goalkeeper. But I think on this occasion, it was a non-football action of a player just grabbing the goalkeeper's arm, which had a detrimental effect on him having the ability to catch the ball. And I think that's the difference with this one. It doesn't matter what's gone on before. I know it, I know it does. But what's, sorry, can you just say that line again? Because that was brilliant. Yeah, I know, but it's, you know, it's irrelevant because that's the,

past and we're at this stage of the season and most people looking at that would say it is a foul. So while you can, you know, we can go back and look all the incidents that Rory's mentioned and, and, you know, have our own opinion on that, they still came to the right conclusion last night. It was a foul. It was, it was obvious. So I do, I do take Rory's point. I do take Jared Bowen's point, you know, very much so. you know, in the cold light of day, everybody could see that Pablo had his hand on Rea's arm. So that was the foul, that was the right call. Yeah, Miguel Delaney has written in The Independent Today

that it ultimately isn't Chris Kavana's job to referee the rest of the season. He can't take that into account while he's making the decision, which is absolutely right. But I think for most people watching it, neutral or not, it's really hard to understand how you get that decision there.

I mean, Darren says it's an obvious foul. I'm not convinced to a layman, to a mere layman. I'm not convinced it's any more obvious than quite a lot of the others, to be honest. I think it's a foul, but there's loads of goals that have stood where you look at just the melee in the penalty area, whether it's goalkeepers or not, there are any number of fouls not being given all season.

And then it gets to probably the most consequential decision of the season in terms of the title race and possibly relegation. and they decide, actually that's a foul. The decision is right, but it does make you think, well, hang on all of those others. By those standards, literally all of those others have been wrong. And you can't square that circle.

There is a point where, Darren, I take your point, and I say this with respect, that no two incidents are the same, that is absolutely true. But if you're getting into that kind of rugby union thing where the strums collapsing and literally nobody's got an idea, any idea why it's collapsed, and you just all accept it and walk away, you've got a real problem, Because I don't know why that yesterday was a foul, but loads of other decisions are, well, that's fine, play on.

Would it not be, what would really determine it? Would it not be that the VAR would bring something to the referee's attention that he obviously hasn't seen? Because I've got this thing about, if the referee sees it on field and he's seen the whole picture, then make the call. But obviously in these kind of meleys, there's that much, we've already alluded to like three or four different incidents at the same time.

So by sending him, him, is that not the VAR's way of saying, look, just make sure that you're sure, you can look at it all again and be happy with your call, because let's not forget, he can stick with his call. It's not, it's a possibility. That's right, yes. No, I agree, Matt. And Chris Havana is actually one of only three referees that have stuck on more than one occasion. So if he felt there was no foul, I've seen him do it, as I say, a couple of occasions. And as As you said, it's usually quite rare for a referee to do that, but he is certainly one referee who wouldn't hesitate. If he didn't think it was a foul, then he would stick with his original decision.

Just to go back on the previous point, I'm speaking now as a football fan, not as a former official. But I think, generally speaking, we're all a little fed up with the grappling, with the wrestling, particularly at corner kicks. And this is why I'd propose that law change, which I think would actually eradicate these problems. I'll go, come on to that with you in a second. What are you shaking your head out? It's just, unless I've misheard that from Matt, and I don't know if Darren really clocked that. It sounded like Matt you were saying that the fourth official, sorry, the video assistant referee has just asked the referee, just go and have another look at this, you know what I mean? As opposed to going towards a specific thing to look at. Is that what you meant, Matt, or did you, or were you being specific about, say, the file on Ryan? Yeah, well, what I'm saying is, is that situations like that, sometimes the referee is not going to see everything.

So the reason why VAR would send him is because, well, hold on a minute, there's stuff that's gone in here on here that I don't think you, or in your comms of between each other during the game, you haven't described this that's happened. So it's actually happened. You haven't described it. So I'm assuming you haven't seen it. So why don't you go and take a look?

You're right. So just to clarify for our listeners, it's a clear and obvious error or a missed incident. So the VAR can send the referee over to the monitor if he feels that there's a missed incident. And on that particular occasion, on replay, you can see that Chris Gavanna doesn't actually have a clear view. It's impossible for him to be able to see that David Dariah's shirt is being pulled

because there are players in the way. And also the fact that David Rea's arm is being held as well. Both it's impossible to see. So it's a missed incident. I do think it's a clear and obvious error as well. But again, you need the replay to see that. I don't blame the officials on the field because with 16 players

in a very sort of close proximity it's impossible to keep your eye on everything and there are just bodies in the way sometimes so yes Darren England on VAR was perfectly entitled to send him over

and I think he made the correct decision just to be crystal clear here so there's no like muddying of waters I think Darren you're saying that he sent him over to look at the specific incident on Ryan, not everything else in the box. Because what it sounded like Matt was saying was there was to go and look at everything on the side. That's what it sounded like.

Yeah, so what would actually happen, Nadem, is that Darren, England would recommend an on-field review for a possible foul on the goalkeeper. Bearing in mind, West Ham have been given the goal. So they're not looking to see if there are any other incidents other than is there a reason to disallow the goal. So on this occasion, the video was looked at. It was seen that there was, in Darren England's opinion, a foul on the goalkeeper. So he recommended it on to interview.

But hang on, Darren. Sorry to interject. But then what happens if he sees half the other things that are going on as well? And just let me read. Well, you know, go and have a look. You can't do take your pick, can he? Nobody's just picked one. Chris, it's such a random enforcement of justice to say.

Yeah. Glenn, let me read a couple of emails on this. Glenn says, as a lifelong West Hamfan, I wish to express my disappointment to yesterday's decision to allow the goal. I'm not disputing that looking at the footage, Pablo has an arm across Raya, and if that was in isolation, I would agree with the foul being given.

However, what I find more concerning is that the officials are not spotted what has caused him to have his arm in that position. If Trossard doesn't look to hold Pablo, or Gabrielle not hold onto his shirt, then Pablo would jump. We all know that arms are used for leverage, but being unable to do so,

I feel results in his arm being at that, Hi, another one, Noel. Oh, no, sorry, Phil. Hang on, no, where's the other one gone? Hang on. There was one more. Hang on. Oh, I've lost it.

Anyway, go on, Rory. My sense would be, and Chris, I take your point that you can't be like, hang on, there was a lot going on there. Let's just send the referee over. And I understand that the way that VAR works is they have to say there is an issue here with this bit. We need you to look at that as we think either you've made a mistake or you might not have seen it, as Darren says,

for perfectly legitimate reasons. but at the same time it strikes me as being fundamentally bizarre that the referee can say well I've seen a foul there but all that fighting around him and there were several Arsenal players who have been who were

I mean what looked to me dragging people down non-footballing actions I believe I've found it Damia I should have scrolled up rather than scrolled down Damien we've been calling all season for holding and grappling to be dealt with in line with the law law 12 says it's an infringement to hold an opponent or impede an opponent.

Before the ball reaches Raya, Trossard man handles Pablo, Sucheck is floored by Havert and as Pablo reaches Ryan, Gabriel is crouched down pulling Pablo's shirt. So should the outcome of a VAR review have been a foul on the goalkeeper?

He says the answer is no. Sheikivin said on match the day last night. Gabriel is holding, Odegaard is holding, Trossard is holding before the foul even happens. When does the referee decide that that's the foul he wants to pick and not the previous foul?

But this is just a little kind of interjection. One of the things in the guidance, which I think was tweaked in 2024 and possibly done in 2025, and suggest that PGMOL has a romantic streak, is that mutual holding is okay. And to an extent, seems to be actively encouraged. Mutual holding is the term that they use. And it's where it's the official way of saying, they're all at it. But I think the issue there is you're creating a grey area. You're saying, well, if you're both doing it, it's fine.

point where it's not, and that is where fans lose their kind of, their sense of what makes any sense at all. And that's the bigger problem, isn't it, Nadem? And not if you're a West Ham fan, I appreciate that, or an Arsle fan. But that is the bigger problem, is that we are now in this situation of, well, if both sides are doing it, or if everybody's doing it, then that's okay. And it's not, because it's dreadful. I mean, it's a dreadful spectacle.

And to suggest that the Premier League is physical and that the Premier League is physical and that's why it happens, is nonsense. Because the Premier League isn't physical anywhere else on the field. Because if it was, you heard Kim Anderson wouldn't have been sent off. That tackle would have been allowed. Yeah, I think you're making really good points. And for me, I think I've spoken about this on this show before and others. Like a law tweak is something that is needed.

I think Darren's got a good idea in terms of creating space. Because for the last couple of years, in my opinion, goalkeepers overall, before the thing on Sunday, goalkeepers overall had become basically redundant from set pieces. especially in swinging ones and the whole grappling side of things like realistically when a corner comes in in the past

it'd be like try and find space try and get a block try and create this create that but when you've got essentially 15 to 20 players in a six yard box and the ball's coming into that area all that people can do is grapple those defensively those in attack and realistically there it's rubbish to watch

I'll call it what it is it's rubbish to watch like I like this is just me I like a bit of creativity. Oh, that's a great ball in the box. That's a well-timed run. But some of these goals and some of these moments are coming from essentially playing percentages, which people are entitled to do.

But as the guys have been saying, as everybody said, all of a sudden, you're seeing the marking is literally like, well, you're starting here, I'm standing here. The ball's coming in here. We're going to fight for the ball. And that fight regularly involves the shoes in your arms. And until something changes, like, that's how it's going to be. The Athletic, I've done an article today.

In Swinging Corners are up by 20, percent from two seasons ago. We are at the highest rate for in swinging corners, 2,503 since 2018. Fowls on goalkeepers from those corners 146, goals from corners, 174. If you compare it to others in Europe, Germany, for the number of goals from in swinging corners,

18 team league, they've only had 133, 120 in Seria, 111 111 in La Liga. It is a Premier League problem, Chris, or issue, depending on your opinion. Well, it is, but, you know, teams are doing it for a reason, and just because life now is more difficult for goalkeepers, you know, I don't see the issue with that. The issue with it, Chris, is that they're profiting

because the rules aren't properly being enforced. It's really hard. Nedden's right. We've all kind of beaten around the bush with this for ages. The Premier League, the money in it, has so much money ever been spent for so little in terms of what we actually get to watch. You watch the Champions League semi-final,

the first one between Dying and PSG. Huge wages, nation-state-owned PSG, buying dominate a lead that's been hollowed out to a hushed by English money. But at least they're trying to attack, whereas people are paying 70-80 twigs to go to football matches in England. to watch teams lump corners at each other. And it's dreadful to watch. It's terrible for the product.

And the problem with it, Chris, is that they're doing it because the rules aren't being enforced. But in the end, Arsenal have done something different, and we should be applauding Arsenal because not everybody can keep up with the Manchester City,

Manchester Cities, in terms of playing the beautiful game, the expansive game, same as Bayern Munich, same as PSG. So other teams have adapted, and we shouldn't be kicking them for that, because in the end, the end, justifies the means.

If Arsenal go on and win a Premier League and a Champions League, we should all be praising Mikhail Artella Tetta to the Hill, shouldn't we? We should praise. It's genius for him. And just because he's doing things differently, we shouldn't be giving him a kicking for that. Arsenal tried for, you know, tried for years playing the beautiful game under Arson Benga

and didn't win a Premier League. And Michael Artetta, when he first went in, you know, tried to play expansive football. and eventually he's changed. So, you know, it's not Arsenal's problem. It's not Michael Artetta's problem. No, it's not. It's a Premier League problem.

It's a Premier League problem, and it's a referee problem because they have to somehow try and resolve these issues. And it's not easy. Just as the VA didn't give Arsenal the title because they ruled out the Callum Wilson goal, Arsenal at the top of the league

does they've won the most games across the course of the season. It's just one incident. It's not Arsenal's fault, what's happened, They have exploited it and should be credited with the ingenuity for exploiting it. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Dressing it up as a good thing is sophistry.

It has ruined the spectacle. Are you saying it's damaging the Premier League brand then, Rory, would you go that far? I think it's very odd that given the amount of time and money people spend about worrying about how to attract Gen Z to watch football, that no one seems to have thought maybe we should stop them lobbing corners at each other. I don't mean, there's no point watching anything. What's your alternative then? So what is your alternative? So all of a sudden, you know,

I mean just totally change football then? Do what we did until two years ago, Chris, and it's set that sometimes the goalies are getting fouled. That's all you need to do. They removed that bit. As Nadem said, they rendered goalkeepers redundant by creating this high threshold so that they could re-referee every thing on video.

All you need to do is enforce the rules as they used to be enforced. You weren't allowed to foul goalkeepers, Chris, when you were playing it. You just weren't. But that was two, far Rory, no, is it not swung? You do not think that was like an overprotected species at that point?

Any little touch on the goalkeeper and it was a senseless foul in the goalkeeper's favour. So there is a balance to be had here. I do agree, but I think PGMO will probably look at it, similar to the handball rule, where they've tried to apply a little bit of leeway in terms of right. We don't want people to get punished for certain things that are not right. And I think they've gone down that road maybe with this issue. and I think it's a harder issue to police. What's your idea then, Darren?

Well, my idea would be for attacking players not to be allowed in the six-yard box until the corner has been taken, thus creating space between the attackers and the defenders so it would stop the grappling and also it would stop the attacking team loading the six-yard box with six or eight players crowding round the goalkeeper,

and it would make it much easier to officiate. It would be more attractive. It wouldn't detract from the goals, I think, because the attacking players would effectively get a run on the defenders if they're starting outside the six-yard box. So it would just mean that it's much easier and it would stop the referee having to go in before the corner is taken every time because we see that a lot where players are just pushing each other to the ground. And of course, as you'll know in law, you can't give a penalty or a defensive free kick if the ball is not in play. So going back to a couple of the emailers earlier,

and some of the individual tussles, if you like, actually started before the ball was in play. So they're inadmissible in law. You can't give a penalty or a defensive free kick because it's happening before the ball is in. So my idea would be like a penalty, attackers have to stay outside the box until the penalty's taken. Like a goal kick, attacker is a.

attackers have to be outside the penalty area before a goal kick is taken. And I think it's a simple tweak just to change the law to say that they're not allowed in the six-yard box until the ball is in play. You quite like that, don't you? Yeah, I adore it. I think that might have taken the idea away from a few months ago. That's been discussed on airways before. Right, okay.

No, I don't mind it just because, like, firstly, you know, I'm with the guys. I remember back in the day, goalkeepers were over protected, but we knew that. Yeah. Same way we feel about certain other laws, whether the handball or last player or whatever, tug of the shirt. It's like an accepted standard.

You know, and it was like, yeah, it's a bit soft, but it's a bit too much. But the corners thing, I like it because you mentioned the inswingers, but the nuance is, there've been tons of inswingers in the past, but maybe they go between the six yard box and a penalty spot.

Yeah. But in this era, it feels like a lot of just going into the six yard box. And it's just pure chaos, just wrestling people. And I think if Darren's idea was to come through, then it adds a bit more creativity, adds a bit more of a focus in terms of, say, the delivery. Because some of the delivery into the 6thial box, it doesn't have to be great.

Like, when I think of those deliveries, I maybe think at times of, like, Declan Rice, really, like, flat one being driven in. But there are loads of games where I watch, where it's literally just floated into that space, and you know that, say, the goalkeeper can't come out, there's no space to do anything. And I think that idea of allowing goalkeeper a split second to be able to make a better decision, as opposed to having so many bodies around them from the get-go and also the players themselves trying to time their runs better I think it would be harder from a defender's point of view

because the attackers would get a run on you well then you can go back to times of like my marketing things like that couldn't you? You could still have people set up in a zone like many people do around the six yard box and maybe in some ways you could try and disrupt their runs by say blocking them off just as the balls coming in but it forces people to think in a different way

instead of like as I say people are perfectly entitled to do it and it's proven to be very good for lots of teams overall. But just 20 players standing in the six yard box, you've got to ask yourself, is that what you want to see? Is that the best version of the game? Chaffa, can I work. Can I workshop down's idea just a little bit? Is that right?

Well, you can as long as you don't use the word work. Come on, let's blue sky at, Chaffa. We're not in W1A. They're very often, it feels like we are. Darren, I'm leaving that alone. Darren would, just to check, the defenders can still mark where, if they like. The defenders will be outside the six-yard box.

So you just saw that amount of man. There's no restriction on the defensive team, but the attackers not being in the six-yard box would just simply mean that the goalkeeper has sort of clear space if you like because clearly it's a tactic to surround the goalkeeper to try

and make him ineffective and this would eradicate that situation. But there might be a hell of a lot of stopping Darren at the point when the corner is taken attacking players trying to time their run and that may hold the game up even more

I mean that every corner the game could get held up couldn't it? Well I think it does at the moment Chris to be honest so I think by creating separation between attackers and defenders and of course the defenders can mark outside the six yard box

but I suspect they would be mostly zone or across the edge of the six yard box and then some picking up That's what we normally see. But the main thing is that we wouldn't have attacking teams placing eight players under the crossbar and the in-swing are going under the crossbar. And it's carnage.

It's impossible to police. And that would therefore lead to fewer VAR interventions as well because there wouldn't be so many things to look at like there were yesterday. I just want to go back to one thing, just to make clear, there was Declan Rice on Mavranas as well. That would have been looked at by the VAR as well. That would have been considered that the foul on Davidreya took place before Declan Rice foul in Avrapano.

So obviously that doesn't come into it because the foul happened first. They would have also looked at Trossar. Trossar possibly was engaged with Pablo as well. So they're looking at every incident. And that's why it takes a little bit longer because it wasn't just one incident to look at. But what I would say, Chappas, is I've heard five minutes. I've heard eight minutes. Believe me, I've watched this 200 times today.

Darren England took two minutes and 21 seconds from the time that he said, Chris Gavanna said that the goal has been given and then he did the check for two minutes 21 before recommending the on-field review. And of course then we have time for the referee to go over to the screen and look at the screen. But two minutes 21, I think we ought to

actually put that out into the interview audience so they know actually it wasn't five minutes, there wasn't eight minutes, it's under two and a half minutes and I think given what was at stake, I think that's pretty acceptable. Just the final one, on your idea, that couldn't,

if somebody from the Premier League was this, they thought, oh yeah, that would be quite interesting. We couldn't do it, and the Bundesliga and their league, and La Liga not do it, could we? That's correct, Chapas. Yes, sadly not. All law changes are looked after by IFAB

in conjunction with FIFA, so it would have to go to them to actually ratify it. And so, yes, unfortunately it's not something the Premier League can bring in, so we would have to wait for IFAA to approve it. How many times have you watched it again?

About 200. yes so I can tell you everything about it but we probably don't have time to go into it. Have you done anything else today? No, I've pretty much spent all my day looking at this. Carveries get a bad name. There's dedication. Thank you very much, Darren.

Collie on MNC at BBC.com.com. What is clear and obvious is that there's nothing clear and obvious about being clear and obvious, and I hope that's clear, if not obvious. And Sam Poe, before Sam go down, it's not all down to that decision. They've had a terrible season as a whole. When you watched yesterday, Nadine, did Mikhail Artetta come very close to blowing that?

In what sense, sorry? In substitutions and certainly the second half of the first half. You could say that yes, but then I think for me, just the biggest thing is the fact that they managed to get the win. And I think at this point in the season, having seen, you know, teams like sitting years gone by win the league in the way that they've done, it's not been brilliant to look at at this stage. It's just been enough, just enough, just enough, just enough. I think for Artetta to be able to do that is important and in some ways. So having been somebody, for example, who's been in the bottom three playing against big sides, especially at home, that game to you is everything.

To Arsenal, they kind of know it's everything, but the midweek game in the Champions League was objective. like everything to them. And that was such a high that the next game can't really be that high in my opinion. Like you can't continue to perform at that sort of level. So I think in some ways it was the

down that was probably expected after they made it to the Champions League final against the tough side who were desperate for the points. So I think West Ham played their part within that. But yeah, for Arsenal, like, you've just got to celebrate that because the boost that they can get from a game,

which was everyone was out enough as a letdown spot. I think I'm a person. with it. And I suppose, Chris, we've had so many discussions about Arsenal's squad over this season at times when it was perceived to not have stood up to the rigours, the Southampton game in the FA Cup, for example, but actually the squad delivered yesterday, and in fact the squad has delivered since Manchester City away. Yes, I am. I just think we got to a stage of the season where a lot of people

because this Arsenal wanted Arsenal to fail and I do feel that and it doesn't matter how they get over the line this was such a big game against West Ham they've got Burnley and Crystal Palace

to come but this was the game because of what was at stake for West Ham so it didn't matter you know how they did it they did it and they are in the you know in the box seat

but I don't You know, I think so much has been made of this incident and Rory sort of enraged about, you know, what happened. But, you know, essentially, Raya was fouled, the right conclusion was drawn and an Arsenal won. And, you know, why, I don't understand why everybody is getting so angry because, you know, and going back on what has happened previously in the season and talking about inconsistencies. It was a nailed on foul. They got it right. have three points and they're now going to win the Premier League.

I like it when Chris pulls the... What are you all getting so worked up about? I don't think that's my favourite version of Chris. But what's gone on in the past has gone on in the past. And, you know, Nuno Espirido Sando came out and, you know, he didn't nail that decision, really. He didn't speak about that specific incident. He just, which most managers would have done.

They would have come out and, you know, because of the implications of West Ham, most managers would have come out and said, well, that's a disgrace. You know, that's the worst decision of all time. He didn't because he knew that they came to the right conclusion. But to make the, you know, the point which he made about earlier inconsistencies, I think everybody understands. But in that moment, it was the right call. Just on what managers say afterwards and stuff,

Mikhail Artetta was full of praise for the officials afterwards and saying he then realized what a difficult job they have the officials. Do you think, Chris, if they'd allowed that goal to stud, he would have said the same thing? No, he's got a bit of history of nailing referees, hasn't he? But no, definitely not. It's brilliant, you know, like, obviously, we said at the start, like, your bias will sort of define how you see anything in particular.

And I've got loads of Arsenal fans in my life that were drawing up this conspiracy list of all these decisions going against them. And then on the weekend, yeah, you see, this is correct now. This is correct, this is perfect. Everything is great with referees. You know, right decision, more power to them. Just like that.

We'll switch to the Scottish Premiership title race. Who are the favourites for you now, Chris? I don't know. Right. Have you had a bad day? What is wrong with you? I don't know. But that tells you everything you need to know about the title race.

Celtics win at the weekend. And probably more pertinently, the way that they played, I mean, that was a big performance at the right time. I mean, Celtic and Rangers always try and destroy each other, and of course, Rangers now are going to finish third. But that may give them real momentum going into the Motherwell game, which is really difficult. And, of course, you know, the reason I don't know is if Celtic, you know,

get something at Motherwell, they go into the last game against Hart. I think Hearts will beat Full Cook, although Hearts have key injuries now to two big players for them. Craig Alcott and Leonard in the midfield have been excellent. You know, Celtic at home against Hart's last day, I would fancy Celtic to get over the line in that one. So it's really difficult because Motherwell are one of those teams, especially at home, who have that ability where they can beat Celtic.

And I'm sure they can. But it was more the performance than the result for Celtic where I think, well, hang on a minute. You know, maybe, maybe just at the right time Celtic are getting going. Alistair Johnson back into the Celtic team. And right back, the right back, Canadian right back, he has made such a huge difference. Engels coming in to form, the midfield.

I think Nottinger Forrest wanted to buy him for 25 million. You know, he started to look like a player. So, I mean, you can say it was only Rangers, but with what was at stake, that was really impressive their performance. The other thing in all of this is that hearts are still there and it is still in their hands, which not many people would have thought would be the case.

You know, everybody was saying, oh, they won't last, they weren't last. Yeah, I mean, I suppose there was a parallel with Derek McKinnis' season in 2014 at Aberdeen where they won their first eight. And then the story of that campaign, which obviously was without, Rangers in the top flight was basically Celtic chipping away at their lead and waiting for Aberdeen's fuel to run out, whether it's psychological or physical. And Harts, although they've had setbacks in terms of the drop points that they will come to regret if they don't win the league, they have stayed top and they stayed top, and I think this is really impressive, they stayed

top just for a long time. So they've been a point ahead of Rangers, two points ahead of Celtic. There's been one game in it for most of the season, and Harts have been a able to sustain it. And given the pressure that that club must be under, just they don't have that institutional kind of success and also, to be honest, the massive financial advantages that Celtic in particular have, that is an

amazing achievement. And I think to me, the message, if I was Celtic all ranges, the thing I'd worry about much less, obviously this week I'd worry about Will Hearts win the title, I think the really big worry would be, hearts probably aren't going anywhere. Hearts will be around next

season as well, because Tony Bloom isn't in it Tony Bloom and James Anderson who's put a lot of money in of his own as well to bring players in the kind of thing is a biotech billionaire they're not doing it for a season you know Tony Bloom thinks he can do in in Strotland what he's done in Belgium

or what Alex Muzio has done in Belgium who's a former employee colleague of his they think there isn't a gap to exploit in the old firm being a little bit stuck in their ways a little bit traditionalist and then the chances of them being around next season especially with Champions League money

if they make it into the group stage, they suddenly become a long-term threat. Delight to say that Joe Savage joins us former sporting director at Hart's evening, Joe. Thank you very much for being with us. Hi, guys, how you're doing you're talking? Yeah, very good, thank you. Before we come on to your time there

and what you built there and what you left for them, just that final point from Rory is that maybe a lot of people are thinking, you know, this is a one-time shot for Hart's, given the position that they've put themselves in and Celtic can't be like this again. next season Rangers,

would Rangers improve next season? Internally, they're not likely to be viewing it like that, are they hearts? They're here for the long term

themselves. That's their inner belief. Yeah, I think from speaking to the staff and the guys there, they're in this for the long haul. I think Tony,

as you've obviously just picked up on, he thinks that he can deliver this within 10 years and they're obviously they're close to doing it after one year. So I don't think

they're going anywhere. I think they're only going to get better. They're going to invest a lot of money again. They've invested a lot this year. Nothing in comparison to what Celtican Rangers have done, but they've still invested good amounts. And as Rory's saying, they're near the top of the league

and they've been there all season. So they'll be confident in going again next year in the years after that. You went in in January 2021. Give us an insight into what it is like to try and build a club. to be in any way competitive with the old firm in the Scottish Premiership?

Yeah, well, when I went in, we were in the championship in Scotland. And again, Chris can obviously testify. This hearts are a big club in Scotland. They're massive. They've got a huge expectation as a fan base and what they want to do. And that was the excitement for me,

was the project. It was more or less a blank canvas for me to go in and really build from within. And it was only really when I went in and I've seen how big the club was and where you could get to, that's what really excites you and that's what excited me was that challenge of trying to get closer to the old firm. And in my time, there we obviously finished third twice and then fourth, but the seasons that we finished third, that we weren't far off Celtic Rangers, we just lacked a wee bit of

consistency, but we beat Angie's Celtic side, we beat Brendan Rogers as Celtic sides and we ran Rangers close a lot of the times and they obviously beat us in one of the cup finals. So we always, knew that we had the capabilities and probably just lacked that consistency. And then you've obviously seen Tony Bloom's invested the money that he's invested the analytics through Jamestown has allowed them to go into a market

and sign players and they're obviously spending a wee bit more money in terms of transfer fees and salaries to get these players. But there was always that belief within the club that we could be someone that could actually challenge them and get closer. And I remember doing an interview and

I got slaughtered for it when And somebody says, what's your ambition? And I says, well, my personal ambition is to win the leak. I believe that we can do it. I believe that we can build to eventually achieve that. And all the Celtic fans, the Rangers fans, the Aberdeen fans, the Hibs fans, they absolutely battered me for it and slaughtered me for it. And it's only now, obviously, you can see I'm no longer at the club,

but you can see that they are capable of doing that. And listen, long may it continue. I believe they have some irrational pundits north of the border as well, Joe, who may have weighed in as well. I don't know. Joe, could you explain to us then, sort of the conditions whereby, say, a club like Harts can say that in the next 10 years, they believe that they can be competing with Rangers and Celtic? Because, you know, for the dominance that they've had across decades now,

is it more so about what you can achieve with Harts or also a message about where Rangers and Celtic are, relatively speaking, compared to, say, recent history? Good question. I think that the sky's a limit for Harts because they've got a brilliant, fan base, a brilliant training ground, brilliant stadium. They've now got the investment, which they probably were lacking for years

when I was there. I know you mentioned James Anderson and James is brilliant for the club, but Tony's obviously come in and taking it to a new level, and that was probably what they needed. The old firm, like, I'm not massive on saying that they've not had that good a season this year. I just think hearts have been

brilliant. I think they've been very, very consistent and they've just kept pushing and pushing and winning the games that they needed to win when the pressure was on them and obviously the other night against Motherwell they were unfortunate not to win the game but they're still in a position where two games to go if you'd say that to me at any point during my career at Hartz that you'd be two games from winning the league

I would have absolutely bitten your hand off for it and I think that's what the guys at Hartz will be saying now is we've two games the next game's fall could get home, win that and then see what happens come the Celtic game but the conditions for me they've just probably lacked a wee bit of belief in the years

and now that Tony's come in and now Tony's given them access to the analytics but guys everyone's get data in football don't think that this is just something new we were signing players when I was at heart through our own data it's just Tony Bloom's obviously

get access to a higher level and get more money to spend on these players Joe how much I mean how much Is it, do you think the the Jamestown data, how much Derek McKinness? I think Derek McKinness has to take a lot of the credit.

I think Derek's come in. He's got them really organised. He's got them playing in a style. I think that he has been absolutely a breath of fresh air for them, to be honest with you. I think the James Town's good. Chris, don't get me wrong. I think it's very, very good.

I think they can identify some good players from it. But the core group of that that team was Lauren Shanklin, Cammy Devlin, Beningame, Craig Calcutt, Stephen Kingsley, Blair Spatel. They were players that were signed under our watch that know the Scottish League, know what it takes to play in that environment and that culture. And then they've obviously dripped in some bits of quality in Claudio O'Bragge

and Kaziris and things like that. But I think Derek McKinness has to take a huge amount of credit for what he's done and how consistent the club has been. Joe, what was your pitch to players when you were signing the likes of Shandland Blair Spitzel? and Cammy Devalin. And how do you think your successes at Hartz will be pitching it this summer,

regardless of whether they finish first or second? The pitch for Hartz was show them Edinburgh, show them the city, show them the stadium, show them the training ground. We obviously created a video to show them about the team and how we wanted to play, and the manager would obviously talk to him about his style and his ideas for the team.

But I think that Hartz kind of speaks for it, especially for the Scottish. A lot of Scottish players know and understand that Hartz are a big team. And playing at Tynecastle in front of the fans is a brilliant experience if you're winning. It can be tough if you're not winning, but it's harder for the opposition as well. So I never found it tough row to sign players for Hartz. I really didn't, especially once you showed them everything that you needed to show them. We were just always confident that we could get them,

but obviously you needed to be able to pay them the right money and agree the transfer fee and things like that with the club. but we were always in a probably a really favourable position that we, again, Edinburgh is a beautiful city. I think a lot of people would say that and the stadium it speaks for itself. So it was always, it was a good challenge, but you could always convince them to come here once they had seen everything that was there. And like the training ground, as much as it's on a university campus, it's still a brilliant training ground. There's still a lot to like about it. and the part of Edinburgh there is

like trafficking that's not difficult to get to so yeah I found it quite easy to be honest with you presumably if you can chucking it I mean I love the idea that you're taking them down the Royal Mile and stuff the this is the zoo it's really good

that's what we've done we took them for lunch we would take them for lunch not at the zoo Joe no not at the zoo where would you take them for lunch oh so overlooking the castle so we'd probably we would ask them what they, what sort of food they would prefer.

But whatever they would say, maybe the Italian or whatever, generally we'd want to go for an Italian or something like that. You would always pick so they could see the castle and things like that. And it would be maybe a lunch, so two or three o'clock, you could just see it and let's see how busy it was. And it was funny because you could picture them looking, thinking, oh, I'm going to get that penthouse there. I'm going to look at you.

Not by what you're paying you at heart. Not when I put this contract in front of you. you are. Giving your heart's connections, are you nervous before I let you go? Am I nervous? No, I think it'll come down to Saturday. I think Hart's won Wednesday. I think Celtic won as well. And then it's going to be a shootout on Saturday.

I think, sorry, Celtic have not beaten Hearts this season yet. So that's going to play in their minds, I would imagine. I think Derek McKinness thrives in these sort of games. So I think it's going to be a brilliant, brilliant spectacle. I appreciate you coming on. good to talk to you. Thank you, Joe. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Joe Savage, former sporting

director at heart. That's it. Thanks to Nadim, Chris and Rory. Up next on the Football Daily Pod, a 72 plus special looking at 40 years of the player. Five Live Sports. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across

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