Football Daily - MNC: Man City's charges verdict and England prepare in Prague

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

Mark Chapman, Pat Nevin, Joe Hart and Andros Townsend look at the ongoing fallout from Manchester City being found guilty of the majority of Premier League charges against them. Italian football writer James Horncastle discusses the long-term impact the Calciopoli scandal had on the Italian game.We also hear from Thomas Tuchel as England look to bounce back from Saturday’s defeat against Spain. Pat gives us his view on Sebastien Pocognoli’s opening match as Scotland boss.And the panel look at Lionel Messi’s upcoming international retirement with his final game coming next week as Argentina face Benin.TIMECODES 01:00 – Andros being run over by a pitch roller07:00 Joe Hart’s view on the Man City Premier League charges verdict16:30 James Horncastle on the lasting impact the Calciopoli scandal had on Italian football28:30 Thomas Tuchel on England’s Nations League game with Czech Rpeublic41:00 Scotland’s fresh start49:30 The end of Lionel Messi’ international career

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Growing businesses deal with the same problem. Too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service,

O-Doo gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's OD-O-O.com. In the Ranger Rover Sport, performance is more than a promise. It's something you feel on every drive. With the choice of powerful mild hybrid and plug-in hybrid engines, Ranger River Sport responds instantly, bringing unbridled power and precise handling into perfect balance.

Explore more at range rover.ca. It's a Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday Nightclub, two huge stories with real global impact over the last week or so. You've got Manchester City and 114 of the 115 charges against them being upheld. But you've also got a piece of agricultural machinery running over a player on the pitch. So we'll talk about both those huge stories with very relevant people in Joe Hart and Andros Townsend. Pat Nevin with us as well.

MNC at BBC.co.com. 08.085-909-693. You couldn't wait off-air, Joe, to get into Andros, could you, on this? Well, I need to do it off-air because you're not like to swear, but it was what the fuck is going on, Andros, talk to me. Talk to me about what I'm seeing. I have no idea myself, Joe. I don't know what do you want from me?

I want to know how you're innocently playing football and someone can run you over, and then everything just carry on like nothing ever happened. I'd like to have seen a little bit of the aftermath, but I presume Hulk's just picked the thing off you and you've gone with life. Yeah, pretty much. So we were warming up at half time, Joe, as you do.

And I remember running out and thinking, in my long career, I've never seen a pitch roller out at half time, maybe pre-game, but never at half-time. But we kind of got called to warm up and I just kind of forgot about it. I didn't say anything. And the next thing I knew, I was literally underneath it.

So, yeah, it was pretty mind-blowing. I mean, joking aside, you were very lucky that you weren't seriously injured. I mean, it went right over your leg. We were saying this last week. I mean, it wasn't like a little brush. I'm sure you had sympathy for me last week when you're discussing it. Do you know what, Andros, I had, I mean, I'm sure the tapes, if we played them back, would prove this, that I was incredibly sympathetic.

And, I mean, you could probably guess which member of a, of a, of the Monday nightclub maybe had slightly less sympathy. But, I mean, it could have, all seriousness, it could have done you quite a nasty injury. Oh, 100%. And I got very fortunate. I had some MRI scans a few days ago. And in four places, it showed that I had some stress to the muscle,

to the tendon to the bones. But thankfully, no structural damage, only inflammation, only swelling, only bone bruising, no lasting damage, no stress fractures, no ligament damage. damage. So yes, I wouldn't, I wouldn't consider myself lucky having been run over by a pitch roller, but yeah, I was very fortunate. I was very fortunate there was no lasting damage. Look at the two of them desperate to come in with questions. Go on, Pat. Go on.

Number one, right, so it got one leg. I've watched it again three or four times in slow motion. You got your other leg out of the way. Had you not got the other leg out of the way, that was getting broken. Absolutely. That was mega serious. Yeah, 100%. I think I, again, I've watched it many times. If I don't fall over when I did, if I try to stay up or if I try to hold the pitch roller, again, leg is snapped. I'm very fortunate that I did fall when I did.

It was still painful. It was still very serious. It was still dangerous. But thankfully, yeah, no bones broken, no ligaments damaged. Yeah, my question is, I'd imagine we're going to have a few legal debates later, but where do we stand with this, Andrews? Where does this stand?

This one seems a little bit clearer. You know what, Joe? The fact that I'm okay, the fact that Touchwood, there's no lasting damage. I'm not really looking, I'm not really in Thailand to be going through legal battles and how do. I'm here to enjoy my final few years, Joe. So if I do get back playing after the international break, there's no lasting damage. I'm not looking to continue any legal battles and look to gain anything from it. So we've got Andrews Townsend, Joe Hart, Pat Nevin on the Monday night club this evening.

We'll hear from Thomas Tuchel a little later on. We'll talk Lionel Messi as well. Joe persistently keeping going with asking Andros questions so that we delay the Manchester City chat as long as possible. I mean, there is an element before I bring Joe impact of everybody's talked about it for 72 hours. So there are very few things that can be said now that are slightly different. We haven't heard from many former Manchester City players, admittedly, But it does, it feels like a waiting game.

But equally, are you surprised that it has just given you have had various roles within football, that it feels like it's just been left to hang there at the moment? Exactly. Because, well, the news seem to have leaked out as opposed to giving out. So any structured way that either side wanted to deal with is now blown. So they're reacting in the moment. I mean, the PR around it is dreadful. from either side

that's for a kickoff the idea of there's no a new thing to say about it I'm not convinced about that I think there'd be new things to write and say and think about this consistently

and we'll keep on going because every time you turn over a rock something else crawls out here under this story I was thinking about I wrote a piece today for the BBC newsletter

and I was thinking say if you do kick let's say worst case scenario they get kicked out of the league leagues right and you think that's possible, Glasgow Rangers down to the fourth tier

of Scottish football, not that long ago, right, for what happened with them? What would Manchester City do then? I mean, really? You think about what would happen. Do you want to hang about there? You'll have definitely certain problems with finances when you get down there because you can't spend the money.

Would you want to hang about? Can you remember that thing called Super League a few years ago? Quite a few teams were keen on that one. I wonder if that would raise its head head again and think, well, we could go in, because remember, nobody thought Liv Gough was going to happen. Yeah. And that happened, you know, so everything you think about, a weird thought comes into your mind. And that, whilst not necessarily a couple of those scenarios, Joe, that Pat has pointed out, have I thought about. But you start interviewing someone.

I was interviewing a lawyer today about it. And all of a sudden you think, well, what about that scenario? or what could happen if this happens? You know, if Manchester City weren't in the Premier League, for example, then how did the meetings go on amongst Premier League clubs about what should maybe happen with City, when it comes to conversation, if City aren't in that room anymore, to talk about it.

It was just one scenario that came to my head when we were talking about it. You as a former player, do you have questions? Me as a former player, I heard my chairman speak. That's what I've heard. And then I've heard everyone else go down every single rabbit hole, every single wormhole, every single discussion, and been given free rein to say and do whatever they want about something that hasn't happened, hasn't been proven. So my honest opinion is I've got no reason not to trust Caldoun.

He delivered me good news, he delivered me bad news. He's been excellent with everything that he's done with Manchester City and how he's represented his company in Manchester City in terms of making him. He's not just a flash in the pan. I've talked about the owners before and how they do things and how they like to do things. And I've got nothing but love for the club, nothing but love for him, nothing but respect for him. So I realized it's opened up a can of worms and I realized it's opened up all those sorts of conversations and all what ifs and buts and maybes and how and who. But for me, like I say, and this is not just because it's Manchester City.

I'm the same anyway about anyone. When there's speculation in the air, it's just speculation. I know that this one has a little bit more, a little bit more more more meat to it, no doubt about it, but the Premier League haven't said anything. It's been leaked, as you said, Pat. It's been leaked what's been said. It's been leaked about how many charges are gonna stand.

It's been leaked about what the process will be. I've heard nothing concrete. So as much as I'm gonna let people do what they wanna do and I'm sure some people have fun with it, some people are serious about, some people are upset, some people are happy. But my genuine feeling as me, as a previous player and somebody played in this era, by the way,

is I'm going to have to let it play out because like I say, it's all very well and good saying what if they go in this division, what if they go in that division, who's entitled to this, who's gonna jump in? And I'm sure if that were the case, that will have to happen. But for me, like I say, someone who I trust

and someone who's led me and led the club brilliantly and put them in a really, really good position financially and from a footballing point of view, what he's said is enough for me. And what he said, you know, I've got it in front of me. The legal process and our determination in respect it means I cannot do that at the moment when he wants to put people's mind at ease.

So at the moment, like I say, it's absolutely free for all for everyone to say and do what they want. And as I've said before, chap, is this program, you know, the same sort of things and all the phoneings. And I can't stop and I don't feel anything about anyone who has an opinion that everyone's free to do what they want. But like I say, I can only come on here and speak from my heart and my truth. Let me, I know I was just going to read a bit of that statement that you said.

and just give it the full words. The Premier League process still has a long way to run. This is from Caldine Armabarach, in an open letter, really. The Premier League process still has a long way to run and our confidence and intent in proving the club's innocence is just as strong as when this began. There are so many things that I would like to be able to share with you

to help you understand why we feel so confident in our position. But the strict confidentiality of the legal process and our determination to respect it means I cannot do that at the moment. If they appealed. Careful with the ifs. No, no, no, no, yeah, no, yeah, no. Because, you know, all the assumption is that,

despite the Premier's still not confirm yet, that they've been found guilty of the 140 and the 115. And then the assumption is that they're going to appeal it. So they will, so this will kick, you would assume, kick the cam further and further down the road. Are you the kind of individual, which I kind of think I know the answer to this anyhow, But are you the kind of individual that can compartmentalise that then

and not even worry yourself with it until a final appeal verdict? Yeah, quite comfortably. And the only worry I have is because, like I say, a lot of people I care about are involved in this. Me personally, there's no worry for me. I did what I did. I lined up 11 v 11 and had it out on the pitch.

I won some games, lost some games, drew some games. And I shook hands and I walked off, got changed and got ready for the next one. So there's no worry for me. There's absolutely zero. I did everything I possibly could. I had some brilliant people. Again, people that I trusted, trusted in my life that I worked for when I was asked to do it for Manchester City. And that's the whole point in having these roles. And I never had relationships with outside of the management because above that is above my head. I don't understand how a football club works. I've not sat down and done my, you know, one of the degrees that a lot of the boys are doing and good for them in running the clubs. And I don't even know what the name of the title is. Because they're not sat down. that is not how my head works and what makes me tick. What makes me tick or did make me tick was being out on the pitch and fighting for my team. And I did that many, many times in Manchester City and I'd do it again.

But legally where this whole process stands, you're asking from a former player, like you say, not many have spoken probably because they haven't been asked, but I can only speak for me. And I only think about this when I think about the close people I have to me who are massively affected by it. When I think about myself, it is what it is. You know, like I say, I left it all out on the pitch, lost, drew, won.

And here I sit, happy to have a conversation with you and try and understand it as much as I possibly can, but without casting judgment, until someone has drawn a line under this. Joe, you said that not many players have spoken about it publicly. Have you spoken to any of your former teammates about it behind the scenes? Do you know what? I saw that there was, that was a potential question for tonight. And it hasn't even crossed my mind to have a chat with any of the lads.

It really hasn't. I don't know about you, Andross, but my brain works in mysterious ways, chappas, as you well know, but anything that I can't affect is not going to give me an ounce of worry. So I haven't even, I'll play golf with a few of the boys or we'll cross paths and we'll probably talk about it. Probably think, like, what have you have heard anything on the inside? But I'm certainly not going to be reaching out to Caldoun saying, is everything all right? Is there anything I can do? You know, he's the boss.

He's the main man. He's got many people around him, many people legally strategically, who will be able to give him counsel and be able to help him through this time because it's not going to be easy for him. And I loved how he spoke. I loved the letter because that was from someone who cared about the club. That wasn't a legal statement. Everyone listened to me.

It was, I'm sure you've had this. I'm sure you've had these conversations. Just to let you know, I'm having them too. Stay calm. Everyone stay calm. Everything's in hand. And when we're allowed to do it, when we're legally allowed to talk about, we will.

Do you know a couple of things what Joe's saying there I completely agree because I've been on the other side of it where I was running the football club

and the last thing I want is my players thinking about that forget about that I want you to be concentrating and that's what you pay to do and that's it so the fact that

not that many players have talked about it or want to are willing to feel confident sometimes in talking about it I absolutely in utterly back that

completely in utterly back that so Joe I'm with you 100% make and I think it's the right way for players to be in this situation to the point you said before about you know nothing's been proved yet you notice we've

started every sentence with if I did the phone in the other night yeah you did the 606 and my first words was there's two big letters here we need to put in I and F and that has to be considered before every single thing that we ever say about this I actually think

the media have been quite good with this because they could have went hammering tongs at this before that news leaked out couldn't they have? It's been mentioned before but it's as if most of the media and understandably have been in the traps and they've been held back and held

back and held back and held back. But because those words come out guilty of the charges, you know and yes we know it is a leak and it may not be true but it likely is. It's got a certain weight that I don't think the media can't know. I don't think anyone in the media can

ignore it. I know it. be not considerate and worry about what could possibly harm? The footballing side of it, I find, as in from a footballer's perspective, I find quite interesting here. Because Andros, you have played against Manchester City during this period that is investigated. And people, and I've included myself in asking these questions sometimes, if a player missed out on Champions League qualification,

because they finish behind Manchester City, and if Manchester City are found to have broken the rules, bearing in mind the incentives that can be in a player's contract, will they have missed out on money and so on and so forth? So do they then look at it from a legal point of view? But then I've had some players say to me, yeah, but a lot of what's happened has gone on, or if it has happened,

has gone on boardroom exec, business level, if you've gone toe to toe with 11 players on the pitch, you haven't been cheated in a lot of, inverted commas on the pitch. It's not like City for several seasons managed to sneak on a 12th player for the whole time.

And that was what this former professional was trying to explain to me. I agree, and I'm of a similar mindset, but you have to imagine if players have got clauses in their contracts which is worth millions, then you understand why these guys are coming out and saying, we

should get this or they should get this. But Joe mentioned it earlier as a player. 11 v 11 on the pitch If Man City beat us three or four years ago Then the 11 players on the pitch Beat us three or four years ago So I'm more of that mindset But I understand when we're talking about

We're talking about millions here So I understand why former players are coming out And trying to question where they stand now So yeah, it's understandable Go bring James Horncastle in From Five Lives Euroleagues and also the Athletic Not because we're going to say This is going to happen to Manchester City

but Seriat over the years has had various issues of taking points off teams, relegating them, stripping them of titles. Juventus have been in the forefront of those punishments. And I suppose what the aftermath of that is and who views who as the champions

if somebody is stripped of a title. But James, I just want to start with because Roberto Mancini is back in charge of Italy for the second time And a bit like Rodry, when Roder was on Spain duty, he was asked about everything around Manchester City. He went back to the double contract referenced, didn't he? He did. I mean, that was a question put to him by a Turkish journalist last night in Bursa.

And, you know, he said it was a leading question. It was like this double contract is part of the investigation. So that's why he used the terminology double contract. but he didn't deny it and he said look this is nothing new it comes up every four or five years because as we all know

this has been going on for eight years now and he said it's a problem for the club and not for him doesn't concern him but as far as he was concerned Manchester City are not guilty so I mean that's Mancini's position on this

you know I think for him this is a story that goes back a long, long time. I mean, he was sacked by Man's City in 2013. So, you know, with 13 years afterwards, you can imagine why he was a little bit surprised. I'm not entirely surprised to be asked the question, but why this keeps coming up. I mean, it does highlight how long this has been going on.

What you would say is, as well, just on him finally before we look at Seria in general and how they've dealt with punishments. He's always been consistent with what he said, hasn't he? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this story about this alleged consultancy with Al Jazeera, a small club in Abu Dhabi. I mean, this came out when Rui Pinto, the whistleblower,

hacker who got access to all these documents and they were leaked to the Spiegel, the German magazine and some other magazines. It was kind of an Italian supplement on a weekend called Les Presso. And they wrote up this story about how its alleged Manchini was paid by Man City one figure and then paid by Al Jazeera another figure. So he's been challenged on this and confronted about it. since that story came out in, I think it was 2018. So, you know, I wouldn't say to him it's kind of water under the bridge,

because as he says, it keeps coming up every few years. But he certainly didn't seem concerned by it last night, Chappas. Let's talk about punishments in Italy and when they've been handed down. And look, we're not at this day saying this is the punishment that will come, Manchester City's way, but obviously, Juventus and Kelchopoli and that scandal, they were relegated out of the top flight, and they were stripped of titles.

We're going back 20 years, aren't we, to when this happened. What were the key facts then? And what, in the subsequent years, how was it viewed with the titles being taken off them? Not very good. No, I mean, this is one of the most poisonous. I think it is the most poisonous.

case in the history of Italian football, I don't think it's ever been the same since. To your first question, chap, I think a lot of people misunderstand this scandal. They think it's a match-fixing scandal. But no referees were ever paid. Nothing of the sort ever happened. This is essentially about a network of power

at the top of the game in Italy, which came to focus in some respect to around Eventis' former general manager, a guy called Luciano Moji who was banned for life after this scandal although I was at Juventus Milan the other week

and he was there still welcome at the club and I think that tells us you a lot about what Juventus think about this scandal so in terms of the power and control chappas it was to do with

yes referees but not in the way you might think it was sort of calling up the referee designator as executives of other teams did leading up to games saying who's refereeing us this week. And just like, you know, fans up and down our country, they,

they seem to think there's some referees that referee badly against them. I mean, that was the case in Italy. We're like, well, we don't want that guy refereeing against us. So please don't do that. Modji's son had an agency which had about 140 coaches and players on the books, which, you know, it would allow you maybe to, it was alleged to sort of control other teams or have friendly teams. And then also just being a kind of TV personality. So, you know, as we have, you know, sort of players and executives who go on TV shows, it would be kind of calling up the producers of those shows and saying,

what's on the agenda tonight? Let's not talk about that. Or why are you showing that decision? You shouldn't be showing that decision. That's stupid. You should be putting the spotlight on this. So it was all about creating an environment, which I suppose gave your team the best chance of success.

Now, the big difference with Calchopoli and this case between the Premier League and Manchester City is that this case between the Premier League and Manchester City has lasted eight years. And Ferran Soriano has just been speaking at the EFC European Football Club Summit in Copenhagen. And sources have been saying that

he's been telling the other chairmen's that it's taken eight years to get to this point. There are many, many more years. to run in this. I mean, with Calchopoli, the sporting trial of Calcropoli was done over one summer, you know, the summer in which Italy won the World Cup in 2006. So there was a sporting trial, and then there was a criminal trial. And the sporting trial is the one that relegated Juventus, points deductions in the

second division, points deductions against Dacey Milan and some other clubs, Latzio, Regina as well. The criminal trial didn't end until 2010. And finally, that second question about titles being revoked, Chappas, I mean, two were revoked 0405 and 0506. 0405.5 was left unassigned. 05.06 was given to inter. And that is the most poisonous thing that has, I think, ever happened in Italian football because it led, particularly after the criminal trial ended, it led people to look at the sporting trial and say, you rust the judgment in that case. it was unfair and Inter should never have been given that title. The kind of reason it was given to Inter was because UEFA needed a champion

to be the top seat in the Champions League. And, you know, Juventus had competed in the Champions League that season, even though 0405 had been on the sign because, yeah, the season was still going on. But that, Italian football's never recovered from that champion. Okay, let me read you some of what people have said. But Alex in Chester, no one's questioning the integrity of the players, no one's doubting they deserve the glory in those games. But those players would not be playing together in that team

if these rules have been broken. It stank at the time and it stinks now. And Simon on email on a similar point, why is nobody mentioning that if proved guilty, city fans would never have had the Aguero moment or other moments as they cheated the system to afford the best players and the best managers? It's simple.

There can be no sympathy if proven guilty. And John, although I don't think we did this bit, to be fair, I can understand people seeing it in certain ways, but he said, you keep banging on about how Manchester City have done nothing wrong with actually zero evidence for that. I don't think we said that. I just said that we haven't actually been given confirmation. Everybody is reporting it, but nobody has actually confirmed it was what we were trying to point out with the if point. He goes on to say, but seriously, what about Liverpool and the other teams that have missed out on trophies and championships? They did nothing wrong either.

If City had followed the rules, as apparently they did not do, those teams and the players for those teams would have achieved more. How about you feel sorry for them? Is that an if, Joe, or do you understand the feeling sorry for them? Like I say, Chappas, I'm obviously being, I know I'm being careful in my words, but I've got to be, because I'm representing here, and I'm representing from a point of view that I'm not here to tell anyone they're wrong.

All those opinions that you've said there, They're perfectly within their reason and within their rights to feel that way. And anyone who will dig deep, like I'm sore, James is the kind of person that would go real deep into legalities and have an opinion. And some people just see things and just throw things at it. No one's right. No one's wrong at the moment. Because like I say, nothing's finished. Nothing's final.

And all those points that you make, you can make a million of them about a million things a day. You know? And I'm not going to start throwing things around because it's absolutely pointless. But like I say, I can only come on here and talk from my point of view, from my perspective of what's gone on and with the people that I've worked with and the people that I shoulder's arms is when it came to being on the pitch or off the pitch with the little bit of communication I had with the hierarchy. Because as I say, that's not how I, that's now I live my football career. Like I said, all these guys writing in and people are angry, no doubt. Emotions run high. And like I say, I don't know what place you're in, where you're reading it from or what sort of feelings you've got towards.

it in terms of has your club been wronged or how your club could have benefited if this is the case or sorry not benefited if it was proven. But I just can't. I just can't sit on here and talk from any other perspective other than what the main man said for me and how I feel about the football club. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com.

On the open road, conditions change. Your composure doesn't have to. But technologies like terrain response to and clear site ground view, Range Rover Sport brings confidence and control the challenging conditions. Explore more atrangeover.ca. Women's tennis was having a moment. This is a match that will live in the memory of all of us. So he had been so dominant.

Suddenly along came Monica Sellis. She hit the bar big, she hit two hands off both sides. And just when tennis fans were licking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights, one of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Sellish has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports strangest crimes, tennis's darkest hour. Listen on BBC Sounds.

This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily podcast. Scotland against Switzerland is in the Nations League tomorrow night on sports extra. England are in Prague, taking on Czech Republic on 5 live. Thomas Tuchel now on whether he thinks after the defeat to Spain, England have to win tomorrow. We did a review on Sunday morning and take the review actually as a preview. at the same time because we had a lot of positives to take from from the Spain game

and just want to reproduce a lot of it tomorrow here. Are you, yeah, we've had a lot of talk about how many changes you might make over these matches. What's the current thought? Hopefully not too many. My mind is not on changes. My mind is on winning and on giving the players the trust. And I saw good performance. So performance-wise, there's a good performance.

no need to change. Ideally, we would start with the same team, but as you saw, two players are already in doubt, and some had really, really high individual physical outputs, so we will take care about these players, we'll take it into consideration, but it's not very likely that we will see six, seven, eight changes tomorrow. It seems to have been a big point of discussion, yet surely normally players would be playing Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday. It's no different with England. Exactly. I see no difference.

So why would we? If this would be a Premier League, Champions League week, players would play Saturday, Tuesday. So why would they not with us? With the goalkeeper, the message coming out on Saturday was that Jordan Pickford remains England's number one.

That's correct, yeah? Yeah, if you want to, if you need to give the status a name, yeah. Of course, there is no need to take the shirt away from him at the moment, but there is, I think, a little bit of a need of a competition because he plays for so many years and James Trafford had a good start to the season. Dean Henderson had a good start to the season. Dino got the match against France. We need just to see also on this position, not only with outfield players, we need to see what the players are capable of. And for

that, we have to see them under stress and under pressure. And that's why Trough gets two matches and then pick us his back and goal. And it seems possible that you might have to make changes at the back. Yeah, of course two players are already in doubt and some players have big physical outputs. So we will have a late review later in the evening and then decide maybe tomorrow morning the final positions. Obviously you set out to win every match that you play.

having lost the first one at Wembley, are you, you know, realistically, are you thinking to achieve the target that you want in this group, to win the group, you might well have to win the next four and then see where you are? It would be ideal to win the next four, but why the next four, the next five?

So it's six matches. We lost the first one. Cannot change it. We will try everything to win tomorrow. It just got the question if it's a must win. It's not yet, it's too early for that, but ideally we put three points on our record. It's just like it's League One in Nations League. It will not be easy. We have to just need to respect the opponent and the quality and the stadium and the occasion.

And then anything can happen in football. You just don't know, we cannot now come here and say it's only a win. and I don't know, maybe maybe we have early yellow red card or early red card or whatever so you just need to adapt what's coming so we're here to win

we will try everything whatever happens good luck Thomas, thank you Thomas Sukle on the defeat to Spain and what England have to do to win tomorrow and also what's going on with the goalkeeping situation the thing is I wonder Andros when international breaks are longer

and you have four games. And these aren't qualifiers and different people have different opinions on the Nations League. I suppose it does allow managers to experiment more and then opens up more questions.

I think Thomas Tuchel needs to see 25, 26 players how they can fare against the best. It's all well and good doing it against no disrespect to Czech Republic, but he needs to see them against Spain. He needs to see how James Trafford

can handle playing out from the back, for example, against Spain and being the extra man for England in the initial buildup phase. So I think that was an important one for Thomas Tuchel to see James Trafford, potentially for moving forward into the next year as can he be that number one? Can he take over from Jordan Pickford? Pat, what are your thoughts? Again, being Scottish, just a bit jealous.

I have a lot of players that are very, very good. And there is a lot of naval guys and the fact that you just get beat. by a brilliant side with some absolutely brilliant players as well and yeah you can see where there were some weaknesses I mean I obviously I was in I was in Slovenia so I didn't see the whole game so I watched the highlights as much as I possibly could

but you look through the squad that England I've got there and you can actually overthink it sometimes I mean it's a defeat against the Spanish everybody in the world's getting beat with inches now and you look at all the other games that England have played me in the last game against the French okay

six four weird game never seen like it again but you know and they didn't play their full team in the first half but to be honest England had a pretty good World Cup for that but I suppose the England fan would say well we need to do that make that final step we need to get there

we need to win something I understand that that's why you brought Thomas Tuckilin I kind of like the way his reaction is he's trying to calm everything down with the chat seems he seems like he's talking to your mate down the pub doesn't he? Yeah when he was having that chat there, as if to say, look, people, don't panic.

This is not the time to do it. We're still learning things. We're still getting things together here for the next group that's going to go forward. So I must have been, I wouldn't join the panic stations quite yet just because you get deep enough. No, no. And that's the bit I find a bit odd, Andros, at the moment, is even in the buildup to this, there became this massive thing about footballing culture.

And I know Antig Gordon was talked to, you know, spoke about it beforehand. And Thomas Tuchel has talked about England's DNA about controlling possession and that isn't what England do compared to Spain. It's almost as if there's been this real kind of soul-searching and deep dive off the back of, one, the last half hour against Argentina and two, the next opponents being Spain? I think there always has to be in this country for as long as I can remember.

There always has to be like a post-mortem after a major tournament defeat and how can England get to the next level. But I think on this occasion, there's no level to get to. We're there. We're five minutes away from a World Cup final. Two years ago, we're in a Euro's final.

We're there. It's just now, it's just the final bit that you cannot teach. It's the final bit that it took Arsenal years to try and get over the line. That's just the final bit now. There's no, how do we produce this player? How do we produce that play? How do we play like Spain?

Because we match Spain for most of that game. For the first 65 minutes, we match Spain. We pressed Spain all over the pitch. It was amazing to see how aggressive we were. Konza, Gehi, really tracking those Spanish number tens all the way every time they try to drop off. We were there and we forced them into so many. turnovers. It's just that last bit. It's just that last bit getting over the line in the major tournaments, not can we beat Spain in a Nations League game in September. I mean, did you feel this

when you were in England camps? What is this obsession with? And I think Anthony Gordon said it, didn't he? We can't keep looking at other countries and trying to be like them. We have our own strengths, which they don't have. This constant... And I agree with that. And I again, I bring up on Arsenal, Mikhail Arteta, he didn't go from Man City to Arsenal, think, I'm going to copy exactly what Man City do to a T. Because you're never going to copy Man City and beat Man City at what they do, because they're the best at it. What he did, he took parts of what he learned from Pep Guardiola, and he took Arsenal to the next level through set pieces. Can I be more aggressive? Can I get the ball in the box? Can I focus more on set pieces? and that's why they won the title

because the set pieces gave them the edge over Man City as opposed to their tic-tacca style of play. And I look at England. England never going to go toe to toe to with Spain and out-possession them and tic-tacca them, get it through the lines. Yes, we will do that, but our strengths

are pace. We are quicker than Spain. We are stronger than Spain. We are more fitter than Spain. So we have to take parts of what Spain do, but also apply ourselves. We've got Rashford, we got Gordon, we got Sacco, we got so many quick, aggressive players who showed the other night how effective they can be. So we need to stop getting so fixated on what Spain do and focus on what we can do.

There are also a couple of interesting things on the Spanish culture and how they built up the team that they did. And we had a program on it on Wednesday night when Raffa Benitez and Guillem Balaget, amongst others, were guests on it. We also had Sesa Aaspa La Quetta on it as well. He talked about how they found their identity at a young age? That feeling I had since I started age 15 in the youth teams. We were all coming from different cultures of playing football and, you know, to the senior team. You have, when you come to the national team,

I think you put everything aside. And yes, you know, you play big games against friends. In the national team, you share a lot of time together. But then when you have a day, competitive league or cup game, then you forget about that and you are together in the national team fighting for the same target.

So do you think you therefore feel it is important that that was put in from such an early age, from when you were there with under 15th? Yeah, it's very important. And I think that mix of cultures of way of learning football brings a lot of different qualities to the team

and I think at the end, the team benefits from that. And, you know, normally, let's say up north, we are more defenders. We are more, like, tough, less skillful. You know, the more in the south you have this talented players. They can triple. They can do different stuff. So all together is a great mix. What I found quite interesting in that as well, Pat, on the whole culture side,

was people will. look at football and football skills and we talked about it earlier. But actually one of the things that came through in that was a mentality and a belief and actually how important the players from the Basque region were in their mentality. And in fact, it went even back to when Krofe was at Barcelona. And he wanted a couple of Basque players to be at Barcelona because of their mentality and attitude. Yeah.

I mean, the whole history of what Kroft did. history of football comes basically from Krofe from 1970 he just followed the line and it goes straight to Pep Guaduala and everything in between it that's been successful was generally between in that line but within it always changed

it always adapted. They always had to get other bits that were missing and if they had to look to the north of the country to the south of the country finally I've obviously I watched Asplea Quetta for years and years and years down at Chelsea and he was such a British

player. No, it's so brilliant. He was this unbelievably British player. You know, Andrews, you'll know this really well. I used to do this thing where I'd watch certain defenders, and one of the best things I did the defender could do if he was playing against me was get low, really low. See, if you ever

get a chance going, just Google a picture of him playing football. He's so low, he's crouching. He's like, he looks like a crab, because he can move, because he's like an old-skilled Kenny Sansom at his very best. That type of brilliant, brilliant defender. So he's very British. So what they've done is

they get the best of all worlds they can get. That's what he's basically saying. Yeah, we'll pick the ones from that part, the ones from this part. There isn't necessarily a Spanish way. No. We'll get the best of everything. Yeah.

And also what they have, Joe, is they have a system. So one of the things that they did there, and I'm not, you know, this happened back in the day, I'm not saying it happens now. But they made sure that those players, moved through the age groups from under 14, under 15 all the way through.

So that actual club rivalries, which are obviously huge in Spain with Barcelona and around Madrid, never became a thing because you're still in that age group as you progress through each level and then into the senior team. Yeah, and obviously they had that brilliant period, didn't they, where it all came to fruition because Spanish football struggled for so long. And, you know, Pat talked about the kind of David Silvers of this world and that team that took over. And it really feels like they're in that stage again because they've had to regroup.

Of course, they've had to regroup because they had those brilliant moments. But it shows they've got real good brains behind the scenes. And they've got people who know a way and know a way that can buy into as a Spanish footballer. And I think just as an identity, as an Englishman, as an English team, at the moment, it's not easy. And it's something that can be discussed. But I think it's not easy because we've got so much talent. We've got so many different players that can do so many different things. on such a strong level.

So yeah, it's not easy, as proven, but we're getting close, we're getting so close. You know, semi-finals, finals, it's coming. You talked about being in Slovenia for Scotland's goalless draw, Pat. How would you define where Scotland are at under their new man? Very intriguing indeed. So a lot of changes since Stevie Clark left,

it's going to be a different outlook style. was very secure, very safe the way he played, really intelligent when he made changes. They were clever and they got Scotland to three out of the four championships that he went for, which we hadn't done for generations. So, brilliant to him. However, the fans wanted

something a wee bit more front-footed. And we watched the first half and think, is this it? It was terrible. It was awful. So disjointed, a real mess. So half, you've seen a little bit of that. And what was intriguing, it was a lot of different

new players there's nothing more exciting about than seeing a team that's adapting and you'd I don't know a lot of the play I mean I've watched a lot of football, Scottish football and Scottish players I had never seen Robbie you were playing and he was playing up front for Scotland in an international game Stephen Welsh had seen

before but hadn't played much McBurney back in the squad for quite, it had been out for quite some time but it was the fact that they were in the second half that became incredibly positive they played constantly in front foot they get a nil nil no away in Slovenia which sounds rubbish right

but that's a fact it's great fun I loved it and getting the best out of the likes of Ben Ganond Dock when he came on it was really good and maybe more than anyone else Billy Gilmour moved them in a different position and it a kind of closer to an 8 or 10 position instead of a 6 and honestly

it's a joy to watch it really was fantastic so there's a little bits to get excited about but it was Slovenia and they were Very good. Pat, but just on that, I think that's a real positive as a new manager. You know, it's all very well and good training sessions and going into the game with the positive conversations and mindset. But then when the whistle goes, you can kind of go to type and maybe that kind of mentality of it's a stay tight.

It's important that you get a result on the road. But I think the positive from what you've said there is that's a manager doubling down at half time. Very much like under my experience with with Angpostikoglu. very early on in his reign it was very much we did all these expressive and expansive things on the training field but when the game came

with all of our kind of game management came into it a little bit of caution away from home and then the amount of half it only took two or three it really took two or three going are you are you winding me up if we've just done a week's training

for you to go out and do that do what you want to do on the pitch this is what we train this is what you believe in and trust me I'm going to back you that's that message that I'm hearing there So that's a positive at least in terms of a mindset of how he wants his Scottish team to play. Well, classic there was a moment in the game.

It was about 10 minutes in. And we knew that the Slovenians played a very specific system. And they always played two up front. You know, very brave, two up front. And then about 10 minutes in, you're realizing, no, they're not. They're playing three really high up top who didn't go back. And you're playing a three at the back. So what do you do then?

Do you say to one of your wing backs, or come back in, cover it. Just as you're saying, Joe, just as you're saying, 90% of managers, away from home, international game, probably your first game as well, they bottle it, don't they? They're just going, no, no, let's be a bit secure here. None of that at all.

Absolutely none of that at all. He said, fair enough, you'll leave three up, we'll be three back, we'll go for you. We'll have a go, we'll slug it out. And whether it was clever, because Anj, you ask a Celtic fan, they'll tell you, why not a job, you towards

Aspoastikov and you're a sports fan they'll tell you something else right exactly totally the opposite right and that's why although I was

interested and excited and enjoyed it and Scotland get 17 shots to 3 away from home which is great we're playing against Switzerland tomorrow night

that's going to be much much harder if you and there are certain teams if you go 3V3 at the back and you're playing against Saka you know

Kane and Anthony Gordon I don't care how brave you are that's just stupid. So I'm intrigued to see where it goes after that. Can I just bring you back to what you're talking about, Robbie You then, and having not really,

and you watch a lot of football, and having not really seen him, and I'm just sort of looking through his career here and, you know, a couple of games for Rangers in the early part of this decade, and then he's, you know, gone to Belgium and Sweden, he's at Sevilla now. He was in the age group around the under 19s.

Would you have even been, been mentioned before Pock and only took over. He was known about and I talked to Clarkie about this he was known about but at that point in time he hadn't had the big move to severe remember that. He had a good season

in an average league but if he was going to bring someone like that and he's going to leave one of the players out that had got him there in the first place and he felt that was a difficult thing. Now some people would have done that some managers would have done that but Steve Clark had a group together and it was the team spirit

and he was very, very loyal to those people. But when you've got a new manager, World Cup's over, you've got a reset, you've got a restart, you've got a chance to look at things again. So I was delighted to see that you're playing. You've got a really interesting background

that you mentioned there. He left Rangers. I don't think Rangers left him. He left Rangers as a youngster and thought, I'm not going to get game time. There's not a pathway for me here. That's big, that's brave, to go and do that. He wanted games.

and this gets back to what we're talking about the building, we've got a real problem in Scotland all the best young players end up at some of the biggest clubs, right? There's no pathway through. No. Because the biggest clubs are going to go and by top players, or not top players, but very decent players and finished articles from elsewhere.

And this is no different. Again, back to my own career as a kid, I was with Celtics as a kid at 16. No way through. Right, and I stopped and I went and studied and things like that. But then I got part-time football with Clyde. See by the time I was 20, I'd done 100 games in Scottish football and 100 games in English football. See the kids that I'd left behind?

Gone. They were hiding me, apparently. They weren't now because I'd go in and play football. This is what the boy yours done. And this is what Scotland players. This is a problem we need to fix. I just want to end on Messi, whose final international game for Argentina is on October 6th against Benin. I'll give you the stats.

207 caps, 125 goals and 60 assists. Most World Cup appearances in history, 34. Most match wins at a World Cup, 23. Only player to have started three World Cup finals, 2014, 2022, 2025. But with Pat, Andros and Joe, what I'm interested in, if you were 20

and the great Argentinian playmaker hope of the coming 10 years, would you take the number 10 shirt when Messi retires, Joe? I think that's the case where he's going to have to give the shirt to someone. Like in a sort of... Ceremonial, yeah. I think he's going to have to give the nod to the next...

Because it might not be every game. The next five people that wear it, they're going to have to go through him. I really do. And that might be extreme, but unless you've got someone with ridiculous confidence, you're going to need the nod from the main man. I think you are, actually. It's a bit... And sometimes, that happens quite often in the NFL Andros.

If someone joins a team that has a legendary shirt number, if that shirt number hasn't been retired, they quite often ask the legendary player that's worn it, if they're okay to wear it. Admittedly, there are probably more choices, you know, there. But it has become a big thing, doesn't it? No, it does. And Joe's hit the nail on the head.

It has to come from Messi. You can't just, like I said, unless there's a maverick that comes through like a Messi, like a Maradonna, there's one straight off the bat again, I think it has to come from Messi. It has to be Messi's chosen one as opposed to someone said, no, I want the number 10. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see who does pick that up. What I quite like, Pat, with all due respect to those that came in between, it's Maradonna's 10 and Messies 10. There were plenty of who wore it in between. Oh yeah, the Raquelma's and all that. There's a whole bunch you could name that were

going to be the number of tens. I don't think about a lack of people that want it. You would love to be the one that actually had it on your back. Yeah, it's a heavy old shirt, but you would still want it. In reality, what you should do, get something totally different. Put somebody totally different in. Give it to Enza Fernandez. Give it to somebody who's not going to be that player.

And you say, right, you're a different player. It's a different thing. Don't put any pressure on anybody. Yeah. Yeah, it is messy shirt. It's also, as you say, it's Maradonna's shirt as well. So, you know, take the pressure off if you possible. Give it the fullback.

That's what to do. Give it a right to do. You can't have an Argentinian right back wearing 10. You just cannot, can you? But that's the point. If you want to put loads and loads of pressure on it, nobody wants pressure. Then don't give somebody who doesn't give it somebody

pressure who either A doesn't want it and B will play worse with it. Then give it to somebody that's obviously almost a ridiculous. thing. I haven't said that. You won't sell some in his shirts. Well, no, you won't, would you? And having said that, even though it is his farewell game, the World Cup, Joe, feels

like that was his farewell, doesn't it? It probably doesn't to Argentinians all messy because they have this coming up. But for the wider footballing community, the World Cup was the farewell. Yeah, I think so. But I too totally get it. And we're having these conversations,

it seems like, you know, it's not just the end of some number 10's career. this is the number 10 of certainly my generation in how he's taken on world football and how he's played the game. So I think you've just got to understand sometimes that when it comes to a player,

like, you know, you talk about Maradona. I can't talk about Maradona. I don't know the Maradona that you guys are talking about there, but I understand how very much was you and you very much were me in how I'm talking about Messi. So I get it. But I just think the way that he's leaving the game, he's not been asked to leave.

He's leaving it on his own accord, gracefully, having thrown down at the World Cup in front of all of our eyes and starred. I think if anyone deserves a little homecoming and a little stand innovation, it's the main man. Right, we will lend it there.

Joe, Pat and Ross, thank you very much for being on the Monday night club this evening. So tomorrow you do get the Scotland and the England game. Scotland are on Sports Extra England with John Murray and Paul Robinson taking on Check here, then that will be on five live.

This is the football story of the century. It's pandemonium, it's ecstasy. It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years, English football has been dominated by Manchester City. They are champions again, but not only that, they've won it four years running, and no one's done that, ever. Then the Premier League dropped a bombshell. The Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than 100 breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation.

Somebody turned up at the Hetty had stadium and effectively served papers. Here in-depth analysis and explanation on football on trial. The Manchester City Charges. Listen on BBC Sounds. Support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the

currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank. Choose the smart way. Wise. You can on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No one welcome surprises. Plus, ditch that Where's My Money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions, saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. Tees and C's apply.