Football Daily - MNC: Ollie Watkins’ future & why aren’t Premier League teams ready

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Andros Townsend and, Rory Smith. After a difficult summer for Aston Villa, their Premier League season couldn’t have gotten off to a worse start with a 4-0 defeat to Brighton. What’s the latest with Ollie Watkins? Jacob Tanswell who covers Aston Villa for The Athletic, joins the Monday Night Club to analyse their torrid summer.Are teams starting to do their transfer business later than usual? Steve Walsh is a former director of football at Leicester and Everton joins the Monday Night Club to give an insight on transfer strategy. And could Erling Haaland really have signed for Everton?The opening weekend of the Premier League seemed to catch a few teams cold. Tottenham, Liverpool, Manchester United and, Sunderland all made stuttering starts. So why are so many managers saying their teams aren’t ready for the new season? Anton McElhone, a former Premier League Head of Performance joins the Monday Night Club to analyse what the reason behind the slow starts are.TIME CODES00:00 Intro 03:00 Villa’s woes 04:00 Watkins’ future 11:10 The Athletic’s Aston Villa reporter Jacob Tanswell 18:10 Are transfers happening later than usual? 23:20 Former director of football Steve Walsh 26:20 Smaller Clubs’ recruitment process 31:50 Could Erling Haaland have joined Everton? 34:00 Are teams unfit? 44:00 De Zerbi’s quotes post Brentford 49:50 Fitness in modern football

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discontal. credited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott.

So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. Is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman on the Football Daily Podcast. Welcome to the Monday Night Club, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith. It can be bothered this week. He couldn't be bothered last week. And Andros Townsend are with us. It's time to play our regular game on a Monday night when Andros is on, which is where in the world is Andros.

Where are you now? I'm back in Thailand for another season, so, yeah, back home. Back home. Back home, yeah. But with a different club? Yeah, the club last season finished rock bottom. So, yeah, I've jumped ship as I do. Right.

So you go, man. And joined another club in the top flight whilst your former team have been relegated? Yeah, why not? She only live once. And is that in the same sort of area as where your last club was? Or have you had to... No, it's about six hours south, but it's coastal, it's on the beach, it's amazing, it's lovely.

Okay, and so your new club, because I have done a little bit of research, so your new club is PT Pratchewap, is that right? That's perfect, that's it, that's it, yeah. Yeah, and then... Finish six for last season. but no doubt will be in a relegation scrap this year. My research hasn't extended to whether the season has started yet, has it?

No, beginning of September. 5th of September. Okay. All right. How's preseason gone? It's been tough. There's no sports science out in Thailand. It's absolutely brutal.

Yeah, brutal. And their nickname is The Killer Wasps? That's right. I don't know why. I don't know how. But, yeah, killer wasps. And there's a Killer Wasp on their badge? Yes, if you say so.

You know more than me. Have you not? I sense you might want me to stop asking you about your career in Thailand. So I will do that. How are you, Rory? Thank you for being bothered. I'm very well. The season hadn't started last week, Chappers.

It was the big season preview show. The transfer window is still open. None of these teams are ready. There wasn't anything to say that will hold water for, for, Why aren't they ready? That's a big question we're going to ask. You don't have to answer it yet because there are lots of people going to come on

from fitness and recruitment to tell us why everybody isn't ready. Because they should be ready, shouldn't they, Chris? They should be ready. Just going back, how do you know it was a killer wasp on the badge? It might have just been a wasp. Are you accusing of profiling? No, I'm just saying, yeah, I'm just saying,

how do you know that? That's an assumption. Well, I tell you why, because on the badge that I'm looking at, it's luminous orange. And that strikes me as a particularly dangerous type of wasp. It's a bad sign, isn't it? You don't want a luminous orange.

I don't want a luminous orange. That sounds like it has all sorts of tricks up its wing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. What's going on at Aston Villa, Chris? Oh, I mean, yeah.

I mean, they are in a tricky position. My biggest take on what came out yesterday was the Olly Watkins situation. I mean, we know they've lost play. I think with Watkins and Rogers and Marlin, I think they scored 30 goals last season. And that was more than half the goals. Starting Emmy Bundyer, who's a, you know,

is a good player, Emmy Bundyer, but I've seen enough of him over the years. He's not the centre forward. I mean, they shot themselves in the foot. Some of the goals which they conceded were, you know, for any other football fan, but, you know, pretty comical. The sort of matsen throwing them,

the ball back to Torres and then the sort of errant pass and what have you that. I mean, that's the worst possible start. But, Unai Emery, that, you know, he's a powerful figure at the club and there will be trust in him again that he will be able to turn things round

and recruit. But when you look at the calibre of players which they've lost, maybe this is a season where it sort of bites them in the backside. If Andros, you had been the player who was the subject of Unai Emory's quotes,

which on match the day were as follows, the question is for him, you can call him and try to get his answer, the players here wanted to play, we had two strikers with a small injury, the question on Watkins is for him. I mean, that has put all of the eggs into Watkins' basket. If you were that player,

you would want to have your say, wouldn't you? Because the implications are quite clear from Emory there. Yes, but I think, you've got to look at the player situation as well. He's 30. He's pushing on in age. He potentially has a huge offer from Saudi Arabia, which would be amazing for himself and his family.

So I think you can understand, really between the lines, you can understand from the players' point of view, why he might actually want to pursue this offer. But obviously, it's not great that the manager's sort of throwing him under the bus. He's done very well for Villa in the past. So, yes, a bit of a messy situation

to start the season for Villa again. Who's thrown who under the bus? Androsse. I mean, it seems to me that a lot of Villa fans will feel that Olly Watkins has thrown his manager under the bus. For Una Imbre to come out publicly and say that he obviously feels let down, really, really, really let down. So while the player is entitled to do whatever he pleases

and can act in any way which he seems possible, there'll be a lot of Villa fans who would say, you know, Ollie Watkins has been brilliant for this club. But if he was fit to play when the club, really needed him and they've lost Rogers, they've lost concerts, they've lost Dean, you know, they needed him in that moment and, you know, playing with a makeshift striker, that's not a good look for Olly Watkins. It isn't on a whole, but do you not think from the players' point of view, from Olly Watkins sitting at home thinking what

he's done for the club, the relationship he has with the manager, do you not think he's thinking, wow, the manager's actually gone in public and thrown me under the bus here? Well, he's, I mean, what's he, he's under contract. If he's fit, he should play. He chose he chose not to play. Unaimri, you know, would have thought long and heart. That's the assumption. The assumption is he didn't want to play. Well, yeah, I understand what you're saying,

but Unai Emory, to come out as strongly as he did, I mean, you know, that doesn't look good on Olly Watkins. And I'm surprised today that it hasn't been addressed, whether it was through him or through an agent or whatever. Whether it was him, and ultimately it was, it seems to be Olly Watkins, decision. But, you know, maybe he's had bad advice, but I think it's a really bad look for him. I know Rory wants to come in, but quite frankly, he wasn't here last week, so he's going to have

to wait. I just want to ask Andros, and this, we talk about this a lot. And you may have been seeing this at clubs that you were at. Do you think there may be a sense with Oliver Watkins, I know we're talking about, it's a great offer from Saudi and this, that and the other financially, of going, well, everybody else has gone. I don't want to be hanging around here. Probably in a way, but I think it's more his age and the opportunity he's got. Will he get that opportunity again? I think he feels that if I let this offer go, it may not come again. So it's probably a bit of both.

Everyone's leaving at the same time. He has a nice offer. Yeah, I think it's all rolled into one and it's all come to a head for Aston Villa and Ollie Watkins. But he's playing in the best league in the world. No, I'm not disputing that. and I'm not siding with him for one reason. I'm trying to get in his head and see what he's thinking. He's in the best league in the world.

He's just come off a World Cup. He's playing the Champions League, but you don't know what players' motivations are in their 30s. We know what he's thinking. If he wants to go to Saudi, we know what he's thinking. Yeah. But can you blame someone for that? People, you know, don't necessarily see it this way,

but he's entitled to think like that. Like, I don't know what Ollie Watkins's background is. I don't know what his, like, family commitments are. I'm surprised at you saying this. What do you mean? No, you don't. I mean, look, Olly Watkins already has more money than most people will ever see in several generations of their family.

That he is an extraordinarily rich man by anyone's standard. But I don't know, I'm not in a position to judge him if he feels that he can go to Saudi Arabia at 30, which seems kind of on the border. I guess if he was 33, I think probably no one would be criticizing him. If he was 28, I think there would be no question. It would feel like he was leaving too soon. John Jaran went When did John Jaran go?

I mean, John Jaran's serious since then is fascinating, Chris. Yeah, he's at about 12 clubs since then. I mean, he's, and I would guess that he knows less about each of them than Andros does. I think the John Juran thing is, I don't want to in detail, I think that's probably agent-driven. That would be my guess with John Juran. But Olly Watkins has a right to think, I need to take this offer because it's the right thing to do for my friend.

family. It's not as really the decision I'd make, but I think he's entitled to that logic. My sense with this one, I've got to admit, is it's a bit of a shame people can't be a little bit more calm, and I mean the people within the club, not the fans, like a little bit more calm and mature about it, that, that I don't, I mean, we don't know if Watkins refused to play as he feels the club of kind of messed him around or something, or whether he refused to play or didn't want to get injured, which would jeopardise the move. If it's the latter, I think that's, it feels like the sort of thing that an adult conversation can probably solve, to be perfectly honest. It seems an unnecessarily

messy way for him to leave a club to which he has been an excellent servant. So are you saying Unayamry got it wrong? It's hard to say, I don't know what he said. It depends. Like if Watkins has thrown his toys out of the pram and being unreasonable, then no. But if

it's just that he's saying, look, I'm about to move, we're close to kind of sealing this deal where the clubs are aligned and his kind of his contract sorted. I don't risk that by by playing, potentially getting an injury, I don't know to what extent he might feel that it's difficult to fully commit to the intensity of a Premier League game if you're worried about, I don't want to get injured, because it'll cross me 80 million pounds or whatever.

Then I think that that is not a ridiculous stance for Watkins to take. I think we treat footballers, this is new season, new me. But I think we expect them to behave too often in ways that normal people don't. And if you had a life-changing offer, even if your life was already pretty nice. then you probably wouldn't want to jeopardise it. I think that's not a ridiculous thing, way for what can't behave. It's also a very US sport thing,

particularly NFL, of like withholding your services if you think you may be getting a big move or a big deal is coming down the tracks. And then they miss training and they get fine per day when they miss training and this and the other. But they know that they're fit and healthy

and they'll be a big contract. coming with a new team. Yeah, and it makes sense. I actually think we probably see that a little bit more than we realise we do in football, to be honest. Let's bring Jacob Tanzolin, Kovasvilla, for the Athletic.

Do you have any latest on Ollie Watkins, Jacob? Yeah, I think when it all finishes, I do think he'll get his move. And it just feels a bit unedifying, really. And I think what we're seeing now is actually the result of just a summer of change. I think that night in Istanbul was the end of the first era. I think a lot of those long-standing players

actually thought we've probably done what we can now in this club. We're approaching our 30s. Some of them are already in their 30s. They've got Travis League qualification again. They've won the April League. They know that this summer they're going to be hit with financial regulations and limitations. Again, this is probably the time to leave. And Villa were prepared for Rogers to leave, Esri Concert.

Tillam was a slightly different with a release clause. But they felt that Ollie Watkins was the guy that could bridge the eras almost. They felt like he could be the guy, like John McGinn, who could help this new, hopefully exciting young talent, Johan Zambi coming in, Zion Suzuki coming in, and really help them. And they've offered him a new contract until 2030. He'll be 34 in that time.

It's a lucrative contract. It's not quite salary money, but it is certainly good money for a player and a striker of his age. And he's a player that, let's be honest, he did go through a lot of lows last season as well. He finished very high. but it just feels right now with Ollie Watkins that is a very messy situation

and it'll probably end up with him leaving and Vida quickly seeking his replacement. So when the Europa League final ended, maybe not immediately, did they already have the plan that this is what they were going to do? Or have they been caught in some ways in a perfect storm?

Because I was just going through the players that they've sold this summer. and there are kind of differing reasons for each one going. But a bit like, as I said to Andros, I wonder whether there's then a domino effect and then it looks like, oh, they're having this massive reset summer. Whereas actually each individual transfer has probably had separate reasons for why it's happened.

Yeah, it has. I think if you speak to people around the club, they actually wanted this transitional period to start last season. Emory was very insistent that actually we've got one more year, one more crack before we've peaked. almost to give it a good go to win a trophy. They knew they were in the Europa League that season and they decided partly because of financial limitations

to keep that same core. And they were quite stale for large periods last year, but because of that experience, because of that muscle memory, they did get over the line. So, and because they kept that core group together, it meant that they've had to transition even more acutely than they probably would have wanted to this summer.

I think they felt like a lot of the players, okay, Rogers, counter aside would stay. And that's why I think they're quite surprised with Watkins, because he's always been very, very professional. They love him there still, but what's been going on in last week, ever since he returned

from the World Cup, the same with Emmy Martin as a concert. They're the three players that are futures were deeply uncertain. I think that's surprised them. And the fact that other players, key players, the spine of the team have gone, they're even more entrenched in their opinion that he should have stayed. Jacob,

obviously, at the moment it's a mess with what's happening, but bigger picture-wise. Do you not think it's probably the right time for Aston Villa to sell Olli Watkins? He's in his 30s now, obviously, similar to Newcastle where every year they're under financial restraints, they have to sell before they can spend. Do you not think to recoup money, big money for a 30-year-old now,

is bigger picture. It's a good deal for Aston Villa as well. I think if you take away what's done before, if you just look at that in isolation, I think it's a fantastic offer, right? They've projected four offers from Al-Halau. the latest one's $45 million and I actually think that's more than what they get

from any Premier League given his age. And he is declining performance-wise from two years ago, which is peak season. But because of what's happened, because they, you know, essentially they are going through this transition period, they feel that actually whatever they get for him,

his importance in this next six, 12 months is bigger than any fee they get for him. Of course, they'll likely pursue Nicholas Jackson and they've got other targets as well. but Watkins brings things that are sometimes intangible off the field that they feel's far outweighs that price. Jacob, clearly Una Emery was frustrated yesterday.

Where does this whole situation leave him if these players aren't replaced adequately? And you keep talking about the financial side of it. How much will Villa have to spend? How much wriggle room have they got with the PSR? Right now they say they're compliant, but this is the last year where they have to adhere to the UEFA settlement agreement that they're into,

which means they can't lose more than 60 million, otherwise they could face sporting sanctions from UEFA next season. So they're having to be very watchful of that, but they feel like given the business they've done and they've sold a lot of players, they're absolutely fine. And if you speak to Ewe and I'm very excited about this season, he feels like it's a new era. John McGinn, Mattie Cash have all said.

feels like a new era and they did have to regenerate. Absolutely no question. He didn't look very excited yesterday, Jacob, if I'm honest. No. No, his demeanor did change after the game. But if you look at his track record, he's fantastic getting the best out of the existing players that he inherited. But if you look at his recruitment record, it's very patchy. So it's going to be, it's a big risk to change half your team, more than half your team,

with a recruitment strategy that has proven more missed than hit. The financial thing is all down to these agreements with UEFA then. just to reiterate that. That's where the financial situation is for Villa because people just keep going on about Villa's finances without actually explaining what the proper issue is. But that is it, is it? Yes, so when they register their Champions League squad,

they've got to be a positive balance. Essentially, they've, the departing players, they have to sell players for more money than they buy players for, and then they've got to bring their squad cost ratio down to their wages to revenue that has to be below 70%. If they can do that, which they think they can right now, they'll be fine. Okay. And then did you say they weren't ready?

They, what you saw yesterday, they clearly weren't ready for the... Yeah, but behind the scenes weren't ready for players leaving. I think, like I said, they were fine with one or two leave. I think that was a plan. But there was, I think they're now surprised by the fact that, like I say, Eri Martinez, Concer and Watkins are all looking or have left, or looking like they've left. They didn't expect this amount of change.

Emery's even omitted it. They thought two might go, three, a push. But this is the spine of the team that's gone from the Freiburg final in May. It's huge change. Jacob, thank you very much for joining us. Jacob Tazwell, the Aston Villa correspondent for the Athletic.

Overall, then, as we move this on, it follows on from there, Rory. Are you surprised that so many teams say they aren't ready? In terms of recruitment, yeah, 100%. I think it's the defining, instead of my defining takeaway from the weekend was the number of teams that you saw and you thought, well, you've got so much work left to do

and it's August the 24th, why have you left it this long? And I get that, obviously, the World Cup exhausted us all chappers, and the gap between the end of the World Cup and the start of the season was relatively short, but you did kind of know that. Like, that's been in the calendar for a while.

and listening to Jacob actually is interesting that I think there's like a compounding effect where when teams the transfer market often needs a trigger and if lots of teams are kind of trapped in like a holding pattern that trigger never comes and so it gets to last week and at some point people start thinking

well look the last few days are going to go bananas anyway so let's just wait for that and ride it out and see what we can pick up I think there's probably a lot of teams who are looking at the same players which has given a lot of kind of agency. Has that not always happened?

Yeah, it probably has, but it feels like everyone's waiting. For what? For what? I don't know. Sorry, I'm not taking out on you, Rory. It just exasperates me. There's a lot of teams who would say that, like Aston Villa, they want to sell before they can buy, because you don't want to be kind of selling off players, just teams know that you are kind of desperate to raise money to make up for the money that you've already laid out. I wonder if the scale of the deals now as well, given how high prices are,

that maybe changes how complicated they are to pull off. But it all seems very, I can't remember a market where it's felt so, so kind of quaint the idea that you'd get players in for preseason. That used to be the thing that managers wanted, especially when they were new managers. Don't players want it as well, Andros. Don't players want a full... And we saw so many times last season, players who'd, didn't have full pre-seasons with the clubs where they ended up,

they're having real stinkers. Don't players want to have full pre-season? Yeah, 100%. I think that's the problem now where, like Jacob was saying, most clubs are not manager-led in the transfers, whereas the owners or director of football, they don't really see it that way. They just want to get the best deal for their club,

whereas the manager wants players in the door day one. Players want to have a full pre-season under their belt. So it's almost a weird situation where the guys making the decisions don't really understand that as much as obviously the coach and the players. The modern game, eh? Well, it's not though, is it, Chris?

Because in amongst all of that, Nick and Kingston emailed us MNC at BBC.co.com. UK, hi, MNC. Speaking about fitness and recruitment, I'm really looking forward to Keith Andrews getting Brentford fully fit and up to speed. And that's, they are,

they are a shining example of the modern game. And yet, they've got their recruitment done. they've probably, you know, as everybody keeps saying, got one of the players of the transfer window, if not the deal of the transfer window. They're fit, they're battered spurs. So the point is it can be done. Are people just making excuses?

Yes, yeah, I think very much so. I think this has been a remarkable weekend. And neither should we be getting overly carried away with Brentford after one game and the signing of Sangari, who, you know, who looked very good. I've got to say, Statman Dave, Mark, who we know well, you know, was bigging it a while ago and thinking one of the big boys was talking about him to Manchester United, I think.

So fair play to Dave. But yeah, he looked very good. I mean, they haven't done loads of recruitment. But the fact that they were, you know, organized, fit and ready, you know, we shouldn't really be sort of lauding that and applauding them. That should just be the norm, is what you're getting at. It's been a really odd weekend. I think the opening weekends of every Premier League season are odd,

but I think it has been odder because of what a lot of the managers have had to say about where their team are at in the stuff that you have touched on, about their teams not being ready. How can you start the season? a Premier League season and not be ready physically. I don't get it. As well, Chris,

I don't think Brentford's opponents, Spurs can have much excuse in that department because for once they finally got their business done early. A lot of their key players came in. You look down at their squad. Not many of them participated in the World Cup or went deep in the World Cup. So I've watched a few of their preseason game.

They had a settled team. So they can't have many excuses in that department. And we'll do fitness from 8 o'clock. But Spurs are another example. They've done loads of business, but they're still trying to buy a whole new forward line, which they haven't managed to do yet. Steve Walsh, former director of football at Leicester and Everton,

joins us now. Evening, Steve. Good evening, everybody. Are you, given your experiences, are you surprised at how many teams still appear to have a lot of work to do recruitment-wise with eight days of the transfer window left to go? Yes, I am surprised.

You tried to get your business done early in the transfer window, but obviously the guys have alluded to it. It's not always that simple. If you're a lower team, you're wondering, you know, are you recruiting for, you know, at the end of the season, let's say you look at the teams that went down from the Premier League, who were they recruiting for?

Are they recruiting for the championship? And it's not been deciding whether they're going to be in the Premier League or not. So that's a mitigating factor. But yes, most clubs that are organised, and I like to say that I tried to get my business done early, certainly when it came to Windows, as many times I've told the players,

that if he doesn't sign the contract, I am closing the doors, and I'm going to close the lights, and we're going to be leaving the training ground, so it's up to you. And it's got to that stage at certain points. You know, so it's not, you know, some of the players that are signed,

I have kind of five agents, you know, on one occasion, a very well-known player, I had five agents, so I had to go into the room to say, I'll speak to one of you, So decide who's going to be the spokesman, bring him into the room and then say to them,

listen, I don't fancy you a player. The manager really wants, now, I've shown you the deal. That's it. If you want it, take it. If you don't, let's close up and we'll see you later. You know, it does get to that stage if you get that very late in the window. So I would say try and get your business done earlier. know who you want to get.

Use your analysis, you and algorithms and everything else that goes with it. But then make sure you've had people out to see them live. You know, I think that's a crucial part of it. Can I just ask you one on that? And then I know Andros wants to come in. But just on Brentford, I appreciate you haven't worked at Brentford. But Brian and Buomo on a French podcast recently said

he chose Brentford ahead of other clubs. He said, what shocked me was there the Scouts that came to see me 28 times in the league de season. They pointed out my strengths, my weaknesses, how I could improve. Everything. I met other clubs, but I thought to myself, Brentford really want me. They did a thorough study.

And if I go back to your Leicester time, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but do you think that clubs of Brentford or Leicester have to show that extra care and effort rather than reliant? on, well, where Manchester United come and sign for us? Yes, I agree fully with that. When Jamie Viley signed for

Lester, I brought him up into the room where we did all our audio and video stuff and I showed him why we wanted him. I showed him detailed information, but also detailed video footage of him doing what we wanted him,

to do. And that wasn't necessarily scoring goals. It was working hard. It was closing people down. And the one thing I said to, if I was playing centreback against you, I wouldn't want to have the ball because I wouldn't know where you were. You were closing people down. And even if you didn't score goals, you know, you'd make them for other people because you're so quick and could put people under pressure. And we convinced him. I think at that time, Southampton were in for him. and I think a club like Peterborough as well were in for him and they both wanted him to sign

I think the fact that Nigel Pearson was kind of his boyhood hero at Sheppie Wednesday back in the day certainly played its pilot as well but we showed him that we wanted him to you know we made him we made him feel like he was going to be part of the furniture and Ross

yeah Steve you mentioned that obviously you wanted to get the deal done as soon as possible. Obviously we know the managers the same. In your career, how much pressure did you have from owners and the guys with the money to wait for the right deal as opposed to just paying over the odds

to get them through the door July 1st? Now, it wasn't swayed too much to be honest. I was pretty straight talking and if they didn't want to come, that was fine as well. But I remember when we signed in Golokanthi I pretty much got him kidnapped. his agents at that time had a tag and couldn't leave Paris

so I got another agent to organise him to come across and I just said look you're not leaving this room until he signed that contract but interestingly was there competition for him because again and the argument with Sangare is at Brentford every you know a lot of people were talking about it as Chris has mentioned, he was in the league team of the season. It's not like he's a hidden gem.

And yet there are other teams, and I'm not being, well, I suppose I'm being disrespectful to Brentford here, but there are other teams who may think they have a greater reputation or lure to a player than others who are spending two or three times as much on a midfielder than Ansangare.

Do you think there's sometimes some of the bigger clubs can be snobbish sometimes? I think so, but you know, you don't cut to cut your nose off to spite your face. And if, I mean, it's about being good at your job. And it's about that gut feeling, you know, this player, I've got to sign this player because I really believe in him. How much does it change when the deals you're doing are for more money?

Obviously, Canté, Marez, that Yvadi were all, it's a lot of money, but by kind of the standards we're seeing now, you've gone for a steal, yeah. But as you then are starting to think about 10, 15, 20 million pounds players, how much more justification are you having to do to the people above you to sort of justify spending that amount of money? Convinced them. It's easier to go to them with a cheap deal.

Somebody's got a buyout clause. I also found that was pretty good, both at Everton and. and at Leicester. I remember signing Adrissigana Gay, and I knew that there was a 3.5 million release clause in his contract. So when I went to Everton, he was the first player that I signed, even though he was on my list to go to Leicester to replace County, before I left.

So I had that kind of in the store. So, you know, if you're asking them to part with a lot of money, They want to see the stats and you'll bring the stats together to convince the owners that this is the player to sign. And then you'll bring them video footage. And the more examples of them being a good player, the better. So you can, you know, if listen, I'm spending 60 million of your money, mate. You know, you need as much knowledge of this player. as possible.

And it's not always easy. It's not always an easy sell. You know, it's their money. It's not yours. Did they sometimes say now? Oh, Earl and Harland when I was at Everton. Really? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Back in the day, had him in the building with Alf. And I didn't get the, it was 17 at the time, so you can understand that it was maybe some doubts about, to the boat so I had no doubts what would you have had to pay I think it was

11 million euros at the time I think was the deal no no he was at Marge's at Mould's yeah and Jim Solbeckham was his agent at the time

and then he changed agents after that subsequently obviously things kind of snowballed for him after that went to book Dortmund etc one way of putting it it Steve so yeah

Yes, so sometimes even when the deal is a relatively cheap deal, it's about trust, isn't it? When I was at Leicester, I was trusted implicitly. When I was at other clubs, not so. Steve, thank you very much for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you. You always, Steve Waters,

former director of football at Leicester and Everton. And I can just think of all the Evertonians, I know at the moment, banging their head off a desk. I think a couple of... Cover my really good friends, brother-in-law, nephew, I could, oh my word. He might not have cut it at 17. No, very true. Hello, Greg Jenner here.

I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad, and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics

with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. On the ground, this girl.

Here ball by ball coverage of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits. It's a fourth cricket and it's the huge run. Tricot, settle down, tough, sorry, Ray. Cricket on five-life sport. Oh, I've been living every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds. Chris Sutton, Rory Smith,

and Ross Townsend on the Monday nightclub. But as we've been saying, this opening weekend of the Premier League season seemed to catch more than most a little bit cold. I knew after Offenheim game, I said that we are not in the right point. We are late for the start of the Premier League. Often, especially at the beginning of the season, where our references are not really set. You can make mistakes and they were really good at exploiting mistakes and they scored twice.

Do you just put it down to a little bit of rustiness when you make mistakes like that in the first game of the season? Yeah, it's often the case. It's not unusual, but today it was massive. Probably we started the game the worst way, no, we knew. Newcastle at home, first game for the seasons, and the atmosphere, they are going to start strong. No excuses at all of this game, but, you know, it's the start of the season, of course.

Maybe players are, you know, a little bit finding the form again. So you heard, Roberto Deserbie, Regis, Lebris, Andonia Raola and Luke Shaw there, Anton Macalone has been on the Monday nightclub before and in fact the last time you were on Anton as a former Premier League head of performance it absolutely hurt my head by the end of it as we went through everything that you have to plan

and work through when trying to plan players regimes and training with a manager but when you hear so many people say not ready not fit bit rusty need to find form do you understand that because I'll be honest

I think there's quite a few of us be a little bit sceptical about this this evening. Yeah, listen, it happens. It's one of the eight ones, obviously, different clubs, different managers, the training regimes that they have. Obviously, I and Joshua will know a little bit from Maritio's time at taught them how intense it was. So obviously, as a player, you could sometimes maybe go into that first game

a little bit fatigued and tired. But like that, they were very strong and fit. So again, each club is very different. I think one of the key things are for the players, is they've done off games. Have they had 90 minutes under their belt? How many 90 minutes have they actually had? Have they only had 75 minutes of a game?

Going into that first of the game, I think it's really crucial. How many games? What's the training? The different travel restrictions, I think Andrews would have had that we went to Asia. If you go to America, the different travel restrictions with it can cause chaos

for players and coaches, World Cup, all the different ends and out. So it can be very challenging and very difficult to actually have your best of living. for the first game of the season in prime condition because internationals are playing in the World Cup and maybe playing different tournament success in. It's very challenging to actually get them on the pitch

and train them to the level that you want because you want to understand that they may be have fatigue from a long season, you know, or maybe a 60-game season for certain players. So, I mean, and last time you came on, to understand the planning of a training session was absolutely, and everything that goes into, it was absolutely fascinating.

But if, let's take, Let's take Spurs, and I'm not saying, just because Roberto DeZerbe was quite big on the fitness, would it be right in saying then that a pre-season routine for Spurs, you're still not treating every player the same? They could have individual routines still because of what they had done during the summer. Is that how it would work?

Yes, a good example is even like an Androsy's, case many years ago. He was coming back injured and was a new manager. So again, he's got to be in the right condition. But the key thing there is obviously you might have players that they're looking to sell. So they might not be getting full minutes. I think that's one of the key things is the actual manager starting a living, making sure he's getting the right players. But again, everyone will have an individual need of what the weekly load is looking like. But can you actually cope with that? Because I think under Conte, It was extreme pre-seasons for the players under Hurricane

and they were really worked hard. Again, it's really tough. But again, it's to get that individuality player is different injury needs, different needs based on what they've done in the off-season. But one of the things now is I think with the individual players is they're all going away and doing their off-season work. It's a new generation of players.

So I do find it quite intriguing that some teams are not in peak forum. Again, you're trying to return players in the team to peak fitness, but you've got a whole season. Again, you don't win anything in preseason. Again, that's during the season. So it's really key to actually have the individuals firing on all cylinders, but making sure that they've played the minutes needed

to actually play for a Premier League season because the Premier League, as you know, is the toughest and the most demanded. Anton, first of all, I hope you're well. It's been a long time. How tough is it as a fitness coach to have your plan for preseason and then have your 20-hour trips to Asia, your signing sessions and your commercial side of it, when you just want to get the players fit and focus on that,

how difficult is those outside elements when you're planning for a preseason? Listen, you understand it. It's very challenging all the commitments, but what you need to be is you need to be adaptable. I think you need to stick to your principles of performance training. You know, when do they need to recover? When do they need to do the work?

It's key. I think we obviously travelled America, Asia, You've got to get the work in, but obviously you've got to find it in the right times because you've got the jet lag, the time zones, changes in that. It's so complicated, but it's about maximising the work that you do have. So whether that's in the gym, on the pitch, I think it's one of the things, you know, managers of what to do, doubles and triple sessions, or can you condense it maybe into one session?

You know, that working under Ange wasn't really big on two sessions a week, sorry, two sessions a day, so you had to be, had maybe longer sessions. it's really key but again good communication with the staff trying to maximise each day and each week with the coaching staff for what they need and the individual players it is really crucial but again communication strong planning and being adaptable that what you might want to do you might have to sacrifice a little bit of that for the player to make sure they're actually fresh because being fresh is equally as important

about getting them ready for the first game of the season because actually if you've done a 60 game season you've done a World Cup you are in theory fit but again sometimes that freshness you might be fatigue so you've sometimes

got to manage that on that then could you is there an argument of you might not be 100% match fit for the start of the season because what

the program that we are putting in place is that you will be at peak fitness say and no October November December December I think ideally you want to be ready

for game one I think that would be the crucial thing that you are ready for game one but I think the club's with strong squads, strong physical outputs will be able to play 60, 70 minutes for the start in 11 and then bring another 5 in

so working under range in 20, 22, 23 there was only certain players that played 90 minutes before the opening game but we continue to do pre-season or pre-season friendlies all the way through August to get the other players up to speed but we had a strong squad and he used squad rotation

60 minutes, five subs going on and we had like-for-like physical attributes as well as technical attributes so I think the squad can be crucial as well that you actually have a strong squad that can actually go and do the game demands so if you've got physical runners you've got Dyes and Mida who's just went to Epswich

if you get players like that in your bench or even at Andrews who had supreme fitness it's dead easy to put like for light but if you don't have that same depth of squad and they're not at the same level you're in trouble so that's why you need everybody in the team to be a high level for game one because you need to win your opening game.

Chris, because obviously the fitness wasn't a thing when you played, so away we go. No, no. We didn't do individual plans in the summer. We just used to have 12 pints of lager a day and eat pizzas and what have you, weren't bothered about fitness. What I would say, I can't ever remember coming back for the start of the season and not being fit. I'm really interested, Anatoly, in your view on deserving.

comments. He talked about the physical condition, not being right. I think the point Andros made about Pedro Porro was at the World Cup. He talked about, you know, and he brought this up himself. You know, he wasn't pushed on it. He talked about the, you know, the trip to Australia. And that, you know, that being a bit of an issue. But surely he's, he's now been in for the best part of 150 days now. And, you know, I get that we can sort of cut them a bit of slack because of what happened at the end of last season, kept Tottenham up. But surely he can say no to certain things. You know, surely the most important thing from a Tottenham fan's perspective

is for the team to be ready physically and, you know, teams can play badly. And, you know, Brentford, good team, which they were, they, you know, on their day, they can beat anybody in the Premier League. But for the manager to offer up so many excuses about the lack of physicality, I just, I found that absolutely astounding. It was like they, it was, it was like the interview which he gave, you know, after the defeat by Brentford, that was like an interview which you'd hear halfway through preseason. So that is on him, really, isn't it?

Yeah, 100%. I think it's one of the things, Dandross will tell you haven't been there for many years at Chottnum. The first game in the season is the most important thing with Wanda Ramos, who won lots of preseason game. Dandross was part of that preseason. and then they went in a terrible run, the lost players. The manager gets sacked after, I think, nine, ten games and Harry Redna, came in. Listen, it's first and foremost, once that first game goes, you've got to be ready.

I think like that it is, you've got to look at have they done too much. I think the travel does kill it. I think you've got the team that got to Australia and New Zealand. The jet lag is unbelievable. The fact that international players can cope with that, it takes three and four days out of the body. I'd also have it. he's been over in Asia. It's really difficult to come back. So that impacts

the training, but again, it's all for finances. So I think that's one of the problems that whether you take you are younger players to their tournaments and you safeguard players and keep them behind. And Dandross had stuff that back in the day taught them we played European matches with a

first team and a 21 team to protect players. I think it's key, but you can't accept, you know, like going into your opening game, not being ready, you've got to find a solution. I don't think there's time for that to look and go we've got a few games, three or four games you get in the Premier League and you can be

sacked as a manager. So in his performance stuff we need to support the manager and figure out solutions. That was one of the key things working with elite managers is how can you get the players ready? Are they fresh, are they fit? These are elite players now. They're not, you know, looking back 20 years

ago, they have been poor off-season. These guys are in great condition, so I do find I take offence to that. I really do take offence to that. I think that's a ridiculous throwaway, really. You can suggest that all players 20 years ago weren't bothered about the physical fitness. Listen, you understand you, Jim Henry at Celtic.

You know that Jim drove a hard pre-season, Martin Ail. Obviously, you understand some of the pre-season stories. You wouldn't miss with Jim Henry. You wouldn't miss with Jim Henry. I know exactly who he is, top guy, obviously great people at Celtic. So listen, but again, the mentality was

as you had players that could turn up in a match day, Chris. So obviously players that came a Saturday of the afternoon or ready to play. I think that's one of the key things, the mentality part, whether it's just the physical part, the actual mentality part of preparing for games is crucial as well as the physical the technical.

Go on, Rory. I was going to say, I've got two questions. Anton, do you think, and it's related to Chris getting touch about his own sense of his own mortality, are we kind of wrong to think about a pre-season. Because it's not, is it? It's not like there is a defined break.

There were players playing until, what, July the 19th for the four countries that made the semifinals of the World Cup. They then get a couple of weeks break in which they are doing their own fitness work. They are coming back in the best knit they can, at which point at least half of them have to get on a plane and fly to Malaysia

or the United States or wherever. We think, I mean, First class, and they have all the tight pants, which, you know, I mean, their wardrobe choices are no business of mine, Chris. People can dress how they like it, it's 2026. Is there a point at which you're not actually really getting to do that, like, baseline thing where you say, right, we set our standards now, as was the case for years and years and years.

What you're doing is trying to manage a decline in their fitness, or not decline in their fitness, but like sustain a level in their fitness, against these overwhelming obstacles that the endless packing of the calendar are throwing in your way which means that what we're seeing to an extent is football is richer than ever and in lots of ways

it's kind of more global and more it's advancing tactically and technically in terms of nutrition at light speed but everyone's always knacket is that it's difficult I think one of the I think it is fair

I think the travel, listening in Andros days, obviously, Chris's days, it was still there. The travel in the commercial agreements, but the thing was is you've got to find a way around the problem. So like that, if, you know, like that, you know, like, taught them, for example, maybe the first 10 days would be brutal, doubles, triple sessions, no days off to get that base level before you then went and travelled because it was going to be impacted. But when we've done it in America, you still worked out, there was still doubles, triples, and you had to take up with it. whether it was a sale take, for example, the guys would maybe be playing Champions League qualifiers three or four weeks in, guys that John Kerry, they would have to work the team hard.

So you had to do it. You don't have that luxury of, we'll just wait to the first game of the season. You had to do it, but you've got to find a solution. So it is difficult, but I think it can be an excuse of getting to that first game of the season. You have to find a way around it, get the players fit,

whether it's doing chamber work, whether it's in the gym, all the different parts, and being smart with how you train them. My second question was, you hear it a lot, managers coming in saying the players aren't fit enough. And as soon as I hear that,

I immediately think it's used, because as much as I can believe that some managers have highest fitness standards than others, I refuse to believe that any manager who's operated in the Premier League since Chris Sutton was a boy, even before Chris played, back in the black and white days,

had players who weren't fit. Like, it seems, you're presumably talking about minor like gradual incremental differences in fitness or different types of fitness even rather than will the previous guy let them all get fat and I was going to add on to that actually because that was going to be my final question Anton

which is in this day and age with everything that is available to performance directors and players and you mentioned chambers and this that and the other would there be a massive difference in fitness requirement for Roberto de Zerby coming into Spurs or Irola coming into Liverpool

because that's what we're told. You know, that style of football requires a different... Is it maybe just a different type of fitness rather than a greater fitness? Andrew, Andrew can testify to it. I think to play a high-pressing, high-style game. You have to work as in volume and intensity. The work it was done with Mauritio

or even an entry, very different styles. But the work is, are the training sessions for everything from pre-jim was all about the game style how do we press how do we recover how do we run it was it was so tough and it was survival of the fit so i think it's really key the key thing is is the players to actually do it i think andros was a testament to the high level of young players at the club there was a lot of fit players obviously androsse ryan may saying they'll be a little bent a lab guys that could run play technically excellent so I think you need the right players

and I think you need obviously the right players to play that style and again you have to either recruit that, Ted Gwardolla done it, Man City after one year, Kay Walker came in if you don't have it you're going to have to bring in the right players to cope with the demands and then you have to accept a little bit what that actually

looks like but again in fitness levels I think the top players are do everything Andrews will tell you that their levels are so much higher to a league one maybe a championship player Go on Andros and then we'll let out. I'll just add on to that because going from

a Tim Sherwood to Maricio Pochitino was like night and day, like before Mr. Pochitino is right, I want to be fit when I have the ball, I can triple forward, I can do my stuff whereas Potatino's like, no, like 50% of your game now is what you do out of possession. Can you start the press? Can you sprint back? Can you run without the ball in behind? So there's a big difference. When you get these managers

like an Irola who they put big demand out of possession. It requires a lot more physically from the player than just your standard sort of low block manager. Anton, thank you very much for joining us. Really appreciate it this evening. Anton Macalone, former Premier League head of performers. That's it for this Monday nightclub. Thanks to Chris Andros and Rory.

Next up on the Football Daily Karel Prince lie detector. This is five live sports. It's not to stop up. Everyone's standing around the 18th green. Overhead kick station off. Lisa's down the same time. Oh, do it. Oh, the right head and the former champion is down.

This is the tour. Five Live Sports. The home of the world's greatest sporting events. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode I pair up a top historian. with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject

from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your. podcast. Thank you. Bye.