Football Daily - MNC: What next for West Ham and Tottenham?

Episode Date: May 25, 2026

Mark Chapman, Andros Townsend, Joe Hart and Rory Smith look at the fallout from West Ham’s relegation in the Premier League, and ask what is behind the club’s struggles. Football finance expert Rob Wilson discusses the potential financial impact on the club. The panel also looks at what comes next for Tottenham after successive 17th-placed finishes in the Premier League. 05:30 – West Ham’s lack of a strategy 13:00 – The atmosphere at the London Stadium 19:00 – The financial impact of relegation 28:40 – Where next for Tottenham after staying up? 46:00 – Joe Hart gives his reaction to Pep Guardiola’s comments about regretting not giving Hart a chance to prove himself. COMMENTARIES This week on 5 Live/BBC Sounds:Wednesday: Crystal Palace v Rayo Vallecano (Conference League final) 8pm Saturday: Scotland v Curacao (Friendly) 1pm Saturday: Arsenal v PSG (Champions League final) 5pm Sunday: Brighton v Manchester City (Women’s FA Cup final) 3pm

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For more, check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Is the Monday Nightclub with Mark Chapman on the Football Daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday night club, Joe Hart, Andros Townsend, Rory Smith with us this evening, MNC at BBC.com.com. If you want to get in touch, you were at the Etihad, weren't you, Joe, yesterday? I was, yeah. Yeah, I was evening, everyone. Were you in tears?

I wasn't, no. But it was an emotional day. It was emotional. It was nice, you know. It was nice to be in a stadium where everyone was happy. Villa were happy. City fans were happy. New stand opened, obviously Pep going, John going, Bernardo going. Like I say, Villa were in great spirits. They were all, they couldn't believe that they managed to pull that performance out.

It was funny talking to a few of their lads after saying sports science is a lot of rubbish. But it was just a magical day, magical day. And the right send-off for some pretty special people. Do you think then that will change Villa's perspective next season and they'll look to have go on the lash a bit more often and have sort of five-hour playing journeys and not as much sleep? There'll be a few people that will be not wanting that to happen because there's a lot of jobs off the back of that being the opposite.

But nah, they just got through. And I can tell actually, I spoke to Bernardo and John. After John particularly, he said like the more the game got closer, the less he actually wanted to be out there and focus him because he was that emotionally rattled from the outpour of love and support and, you know, attention they've got over recent weeks that it was difficult to perform and Villa fair play to them. It was, you know, it was a pretty standoffish game, but Ollie Watkins really stepped up, obviously going into a big summer. We'll talk more about the goodbyes from the Premier League a little bit later on, and we'll talk about Guadiolla and Manchester City as well. Over the last few weeks, Andros has joined the Monday Night Club from Thailand, from London last week.

when we were in the same time zone. So that was lovely. And this week you are? I'm in sunny LA this week. You're in LA? It's 11 a.m. So, yeah. Honestly.

One life, Andros. One lifeland. Live it. Are you looking for a club? What are you doing? I am holiday with a family. Nice. Before the World Cup starts.

So again, a few weeks resting. Very nice. So Thailand, you were seven or eight hours ahead. Then last week we were in the same time zone. and today you're seven or eight hours behind. Thailand was 2 a.m. And then today is 11 a.m. So, yeah.

There's got to be a chance that we can get Andros to do this show from the international date line. So he keeps kind of hopping back and across and doing it on different days. That feels like the natural. Funded by the BBC? Maybe not funded by the BBC. I could probably say definitely not funded by the BBC.

But the idea of getting you in a whole load of different time zones over the course of a season is quite a good challenge, but would also have the sustainability police on my back. So let's move on. Let's start tonight by talking about West Ham. They'll be in the championship next season, and that will be the third time that they've gone down to the second tier. We'll talk Nuno Espirito Santo in a moment.

We'll talk the squad in a moment. I'll just go to come to you, Rory, actually, just from a media point of view, really, to start with, which is because there was so much attention on Spurs and whether they would go down, do you think we have not ignored but underestimated the size of West Ham in going down? Yeah, I think the idea that Spurs,

who are the ninth richest club on the planet, could get relegated, overshadowed the fact that West Ham, who, if you look at quite a lot of different financial metrics, are also a club that should not be getting relegated. I think it's probably overshadowed it. There is, you can only have one main story,

and the main story around that third relegation place was, will it be Tottenham? And I think that probably has kind of obscured a little bit, just how significant it is that West Ham have gone, how long they've been in the Premier League, the size of club that they are, the kind of imprint that they leave, but also, and maybe this is, you know,

there's people at West Ham who would be quite grateful for this, grateful that Tottenham have stolen focus a little bit. What an absolute kind of monument of incompetence it's been that West Ham are in the championship. Is that how you would describe it, Joe, a monument of incompetence? I wouldn't use that word in, though. That certainly wouldn't be in my vocab,

but I get what we're already saying, and the Tottenham story was gripping everyone, wasn't it? And West Ham seemed like when Noon came in, everything seemed fine for a little bit. They were producing a few performances, getting some big results, but for it to happen how it did, obviously that Arsenal game,

a lot relied on that, and Spurs kind of scraping through, and I think the Deserby appointment was huge, you know, because Topham were making mistakes, after mistake and then they really backed themselves and backed him to come in and do a job of which he has, it seems.

And West Ham have just slipped out the back door. That's, it's a disaster. It's an absolute disaster to go out of the Premier League, especially with the squad that they had and obviously the stadium that they've in and a couple of years ago

winning the European trophy, it's a real problem. There'll be a lot of finger-pointing as there always is when teams go down. and West Ham fans themselves will have different individuals that they will want to blame and fans of other clubs come back and then throw

accusations at West Ham fans for wanting more than or not being happy with what they had. But the first person to discuss Andros, I would suggest, is Nuno Espirito Santo because you sort of forget again how much of this season he's actually been in charge for. There was an assumption oh, he's going to come in and save them. Well, he's been in charge for over 30 games.

I mean, he's done the majority of the season. Some of this has to be on his shoulders. Of course, a lot of it has to be on his shoulders, the player's shoulders, but I think for West Dam, it's sort of been a slow decline. And I look at clubs like your Brightons, your Bournemouths, your Brentfords,

they have a clear structure, a clear plan from the top. If a manager leaves or if a manager gets sat, they have a manager to come in and not have to change everything. Where I look at like your Everton's and your West Dam's, it's like there's no real plan at the top. Like we go from David Moyes to Lopetegi to Potter,

back to Nuno. It's like we're going from different styles and we're keeping the same sort of players. We're contacting the same agents to bring the players in. There's no real person making the decisions. They've spent the money. You can't say they haven't spent money to improve the side, but it's just like there's no real,

they're just spending. money, they're just doing things with no real plan and that's why we've seen Everton drop into the championship, not because of a manager, not because of the players. Some of their financial statistics are I mean, Baxa Pan Drosser's point, Rory, but it also highlights

the size of West Ham, which is why I started with that, really. They brought in 238 million in revenues last season, which was ninth in the Premier League, the 20th in Europe, okay, 20th highest in Europe. Their wages were 172 million. Again, the ninth highest in the Premier League. They've spent over the past five years, 654 million pounds on players, with a net spend of 317 million pounds. Again, the ninth highest in the Premier League. Those

figures would suggest they, and bear in mind, they don't pay a great deal of rent, do they? You know, so those figures would suggest they should be doing a lot better than they have been doing. The thing with West Ham, and I say this is not a Chris Sutton thing, we are Chris free tonight. And I know Chris's whole stance is that West Ham fans didn't appreciate David Moyes enough. So kind of that's their original sin and everything that's followed they deserve. That's kind of Chris's logic on it. I don't agree with that. West Ham's problem is the ownership.

And the ownership's problem is they have never demonstrated the slightest kind of hint that they know what, they're doing. They seem not to have noticed that the lead has changed around them. The Premier League now basically there are occasional teams who are a little bit chaotic who do mad things. Nottingham Forest aren't the most reliable and you know, it looks like Man United have made a sensible appointment in Carrick but they've done, you know, a few kind of weird things in the last few years. West Ham have had this incredible gift of being in the Premier League for 14 years. Basically, one or two years where they've been kind of good to watch and they've had a push up towards sixth or seventh or obviously the conference they'd win.

But basically they've finished mid-table. They've never really looked like they're trying that hard. They've never had a kind of coherent plan like Bournemouth or Brentford or Brighton as the three teams that we tend to look at. They've never shown the ambition of Sunderland or Aston Villa. They've never shown the kind of wherewithal or the nowse of Crystal Palace. They've just sort of sat there. They've earned over a billion pounds in television revenue and they have fritted it all away on a succession of ridiculous signings. They sold Detlin Rice for 105. million pounds. What do they do with that money? That's transformational money. That is money that you can reinvest into your squad and kick on West Ham blew it. What have

they done with the television money they've got? How many players have they signed that have been sold on for a profit? It's not very many. Metaise Fernandez-oldo this summer, probably for a profit. I think they paid 38 million twid for him, but not a vast amount of players have gone into West Ham and then being kind of kits on and being sold on again and that money planned back into the squad. As Andrews said, it's run like a medieval court where whoever's got the ear of the kind of of the king gets to get the kind of determined policy. There's no strategy. There's no plan. And I don't take any real pleasure in this, but they've gone down because that kind of ineptitude gets punished in the Premier League now.

You can't run your club like that. It's not how it works anymore. I think around the David Moyes situation, I think at the time, he won them the Conference League. He steadied the ship. I think it was right for the West Ham fans to, okay, thank you David Moise, but we're a massive club. We want to, we want to go to the next level now. But I think the problem is that summer, they get in Lopetegi, who, again, I thought maybe a sensible appointment, because it's a bridge between David Moyes and a Graham Potter, for example, it's in the middle so you can slowly progress. But that summer, when you want to go more progressive, you sign Falkruke, you sign Aramba Saka, you sign some of your, okay, very good player,

you sign Max Kilman. These are not really players who are going to take you from David Moy's style of play to a progressive style of play which West Ham wanted to be. So I think that was probably the breakdown after David Moyes that they didn't really back up what they wanted to do in the transfer market. When you were there, Joe, and you were there 2018-19, weren't you? So when there was still the same ownership there, so what kind of club did you find? Do you think West Ham is? Because the other stat that I didn't give, that I didn't give in all the financial stuff, of, they have the second highest attendances in the country with an average this season of over 60,000.

So only Manchester United have more. Now, I appreciate that that's also partly down to ground size. And if, you know, certain other clubs have bigger grounds than they may be above that. But they get an average of over 60,000. And they have gone down. So what kind of, you know, you've played across Europe, you've been at city, you've been at Spurs, when you look at how a club is run, how did you find it? It was very emotional.

It was a very emotional club. A lot of frustration. The thing that I found that a lot of it revolved around, if I'm going to say that you play every Saturday, a lot of it revolved around the result on Saturday. If you won and you did all right, everything was fine. Everyone was good. If you lost and played badly, all hell broke loose.

Fingers were getting pointed. Things got very aggressive and very upset. Now, look, to an average football fan, I think that's understandable because that's how football fans will work. Be quite emotional, love their team, up and down with the good results. Everything's fine. When it's not, everyone's a little bit more cranky. But what I've been around and when football, when I've been in proper teams and businesses that are run well,

like it's just, it's a solid structure that we're talking about. That win, lose or draw, it will keep moving forward. And everyone knows exactly what's being asked to them. Everyone knows their positions and where they need to step up. there's accountability if things do start going wrong. And I found at West Ham, like I say, it was very much we were working towards the Saturday and seeing how we played, fingers crossed,

and then work it out for the rest of the week. And that's just not really what I've seen when I've been successful and been part of successful clubs. That's not how it's been run. Joe, I'm going to ask you a very uncomfortable question because a lot's been made about the stadium and the atmosphere it creates. And I will never blame that the Everton fans

for the David Moyes situation. but okay, the situation is not ideal. You're far from the pitch. It doesn't create a great atmosphere. But I feel like the fans could have done more to make it better, to make it more hostile. I've been there with Everton. I've been there with Pallis.

I've been there with Luton. And the one thing you say before the game is, okay, if we start well, if we start fast, the fans will turn on the players. So I feel like, I don't know you was there for a whole season. Do you feel like they could have done more to create a positive atmosphere in that stadium? Well, you know how it works, Andrews.

and, you know, Upton Park is now being remembered as this place that you could never go and win. Of course you could win. You go there and you play well in the first 10 minutes at Upton Park. Same thing would happen. And they'd feel it even more. Trust me, they'd feel it even more because it is super aggressive. And a West Ham fan will feel like they have every right,

whether you think this is a right thing or not, that when it's not going well, they'll tell you, and they'll vent, and they'll be frustrated and they'll put pressure. So I think, yeah, no doubt about it, if you had a good first 10 minutes at the London Stadium, things would start to get a little bit eerie, but I'm not getting lost in the nostalgia, mate. You know and I know that you could go to Optum Park and you could smash West Ham and you could turn the place upside down with a good performance

or winning your 50-50s, for example, and winning a few headers. It turned just as aggressive there as it did at the London Stadium. But as someone who has sat in both grounds, admittedly, from a work perspective, not from a fan perspective, do you know what, Andros, I'm not sure. I'm not sure fans could do anything in that place. And I would throw in a slightly different perspective in that I've done other sports in that stadium. I mean, I was there for the Olympics, but I've also done rugby league games in that stadium. It is terrible.

It is terrible for atmosphere. Whatever, I mean, it was great for Super Saturday, obviously. But rugby league, and I have, I think, when you go there, I just think, I feel really sorry for West Ham fans because I just think they're lost. I just think they're absolutely lost in this cavernous, soulless bowl. I look at it and I can't work out from how it's constructed and how it's designed. and I'm no expert in stadium design. But I can't work out how you create an atmosphere there

because you're so far away and there's nothing, it doesn't feel... You know, you look at the new Tottenham ground, even where you were yesterday, Joe, with the new top tier at the Etihad that's going to be the Guadiola stand, even just the way they've got the... What's it called? The Canber.

Is it camber? Rory, help me. Oh, no, it's not called the Camber. You're called? What's it called? That's really annoying. Yeah, the steep... Anyhow, the steep bit. Your steepness, yeah, I'm going to say that, but. Sometimes just keep it simple.

Then you just don't even have that. You don't have that at the London Stadium. And the ground isn't why you go down, but it can rip, it can rip the heart out of a fan and the soul out of a fan. And I do feel for them there. I'd never thought, Joe's totally right. Like I've probably been guilty of the Upton Park

sort of revisionism, which would very much stand at odds with West Ham's home record while they played there. There is this idea that it was this kind of this uncongrable bear pit, but I used to go to a lot of games at West Ham forward, and West Ham lost most of them, because, you know, if Man City or Arsenal or Chelsea

or whatever go to Upton Park, chances are they win, I think what the problem is with the London Stadium is that it represents what's happened to West Ham more broadly, which is, like Chappas says, like the soul's being ripped out of the club. It feels like, they feel like they are tourists in their own ground.

There are also a lot of actual tourists there who are there to watch Premier League football which is fair enough because it's a massive global product and people want to go and see it that then affects the atmosphere but the principal thing is that on the pitch you've got a club that has no identity

that has no kind of other reason for being than staging football matches to have access to the TV money in the Premier League which keeps them in the Premier League keeps them in the Premier, keeps them one of the richest clubs in the world and kind of keeps them going West Ham I don't think at any point

Certainly since Moise have given the impression that they want to be anything other than a Premier League team. They're not trying to try to reinvent themselves as like a Springboard club or as a data club or whatever it might be. They're just kind of there. Like Andrews says, they can't sign whoever's around. It's based on relationships.

There's no real kind of, there's no strategy about recruitment. If you look at their squad, it's a really weird patchwork. I actually don't know, apart from Bowen and Matthias Fernandez. Is there anyone else in that squad that anyone's going to want to buy in the summer? Even at Walters, there's two or three you think you can see people kind of plutting a couple of players from there

but with West Ham, given the money they've spent, I'm not sure who gets, I'm not sure how many Premier League clubs are thinking, do you know what West Ham have gone down? We'll take that one out of there. I'm not sure that happens a lot this summer. I think the problem with the stadium is, and you mentioned the figures, Chappas,

is in the Upton Park, getting the Upton Park revenue, they would not have been able to be the big side that they are now spending the money with the wage structure that they have unless they move to a bigger stadium. I think the problem is not the stadiums. The problem is how they've spent the extra money they have from the revenue of the stadium,

which has been their biggest problem. Yeah, and actually they've made a loss of over 140, over 104 million in their latest accounts to the 31st of May 2025, which bearing in mind all the other figures we gave earlier might seem slight surprising. Let's bring football finance expert Rob Wilson into this discussion just on West Ham's finances and what it might mean for them in the championship.

And thank you very much to everybody, including Paul in Leeds. The word I was looking for was rake, rake of a stand. I was about to say that. Yeah, I did. Rob, thank you very much for joining us. Pleasure Mark, as usual. They've recorded a loss of over 104 million in their latest accounts. They brought in, though, as I said, 238 million in revenues.

the rent is an extortionate on the ground. So how on earth have they lost so much money? Because you would have thought everything should be quite favourable for them, shouldn't it? I think that's where sport, football perhaps, has got this bad reputation. Because it is such a high revenue-generating business, the natural assumption is, well, if you're generating that much money, everything's going to be rosy. The reality is for West Ham, your statistics,

the fact you gave it at the top of the show were spot on, but being ninth in the revenue generating league doesn't make you a huge amount bigger than somebody that's 10th, 11th or 12th. And I was listening to Androsse and Joe speaking there. One of them used the term, it's a massive club. It is a big club. And I think it's almost fallen into that trap of not having any sort of, as the guys have said, structure or identity.

So a lot of their recruitment is executive-led. it doesn't follow this sort of sporting director model that we would typically see at Brentford or a Brighton or a Bournemouth who are also knocking around in that particular group. And I think the reality is they've just spent an extortionate amount on transfer fees and player wages. And those bills have kind of added up and they exceed what they've generated in terms of revenue. The one thing you didn't say actually in your fact check at the start mark is they owe over 200 million pounds of transfer liabilities. That's fees they've still got to pay. And, of course, they're going to be relegated.

So there's 100 million quids worth of revenue that they're not going to earn next year. All right, they've got a 45 million pound parachute payment. But that's not going to be sufficient to really pay the debts as they fall due, so to speak, and cover the players' wages that they've currently got on the books. And also you would expect, and this is just anecdotally, you know, you look at Lester this season. You know, you watch Lester on the telly in the change. championship the King Power was most definitely not full.

It would be surprising, wouldn't it, if West Ham were getting 60,000 for, and I apologise in advance for picking a club at random, but Lincoln at home. All the data tells us if they start strong next year, they will be able to keep a strong level of support in that stadium. Whether they get to 60,000 or not, I think is up for a debate. Of course it is. But those fans are pretty passionate. It's so connected with the key.

community. The big danger for West Ham now is they have an awful start of the season. Their August and September really doesn't go to plan. And that's when you'll see a very, very sharp decline in those matchday attendances, which when you're playing in the championship with the amount of revenue that's on offer through things like solidarity payments, you're going from essentially 120 million in the Premier League down to 12 million in the championship, it makes that match day revenue so much more important when you compare it to the wages that are going out. And if they don't start well, they're going to get into some very, very hot water very quickly. Does the championship next season goes to squad cost? Yes. Yeah. And that therefore is your, the cost of your

squad, and that's wages and transfer fees, has to be a percentage of your revenue. And it can't exceed a percentage of that. And that is, what is it in the championship? 70 is it? It's about. 70%. Okay. So on the one hand for West Ham, the positive is that they're likely to have more revenue than anybody else in the championship. So that should allow them to have quite an expensive squad, but also their squad cost ratio at the moment, I think is probably over 70% because they've been trying to stay in the Premier League. So they've kind of got cost cutting to do, but they could still be at an advantage. So they should be at an advantage based on their revenue profile, absolutely. The big challenge

or the big unknown, if you like, is what relegation clauses the executive team are built into those player contracts. And I think I've said to you before, you really need to be putting in a 90% relegation clause for a player wage when you drop into the championship. We hear a lot about... Sorry, Andrews's eyes nearly fell out of his head at that point.

90%. As a man who we discussed last week has been at that end of the table an awful lot. He looked very, very shocked. Anyhow, so 90% drop. Back to you, Rob. Do you know what? Andros' reaction is exactly why it doesn't happen. So if you're trying to run an organisation within its means, you have to cut by 90%.

But what we also know is the agents are going to be fishing around to make sure they get the best deals for their clients. That's absolutely how it should be. But you've also then got that bit of jeopardy where we know that the more you spend on transfers and wages, the more likely you are to be promoted. And in West Ham's case, the £45 million parachute payment actually makes them three times more likely to be promoted than any of the other teams in the division. So all things being equal, they should have relegation clauses baked into the contracts. The SCR, the squad cost ratio, should be favourable.

And then they've got this little bit of extra revenue through the parachute payments to help out. But I suspect that their transfer exit door is going to be pretty busy this summer. They probably need to generate somewhere in a region of. 150 to 180 million pounds worth of transfer revenue just to keep the heads above water. Joe's eyes nearly burst out of his head at that one. Go on. How are they going to raise that one? You guys have talked about them, haven't you? I think Mateus Fernandez is probably worth somewhere between 50 and 60 million. You know, if we listen to what we're hearing in the

press, Manchester night, it'll be all over him. We've got Jean-Claire to be to Debo, who had that fallout, didn't he, with Nuna a couple of weeks ago. You know, he will generate some transfer value. Somerville will generate some value. Constantinos probably as well. The two goalkeepers they've got will generate something. The key then is, this goes back to the lack of sporting director, the key then is how do the executive team really make that squad competitive in the championship

if you rip the heart and soul out of the playing squad? Also, going back to your very first point, and then we'll move on, Rob, but it is fascinating. If you still have a transfer liability on a player and then sell them, are you then paying the rest of the transfer liability as a lump sum on what you've brought in? How does that work? So it depends entirely on how the deal has been structured, so it can happen either way. So either you can retain that transfer liability on your balance sheet effectively.

And as the terms of that transfer liability, are seen, you would then be paying that money back, or indeed, if that player is to transfer out of the club, you would use some of that lump sum to pay down that transfer liability. So I think Mateus Fernandez signed, didn't he, for $38 million from Southampton, there'll be a transfer liability attached to him. If they generate, let's say, $50 million, they've got a £12 million £1,000, or PSR, rather, in old terms, profit on their books, but then they will have to recover that transfer liability with Salampton for sure. Okay, Rob, thank you very much coming on.

Appreciate it. Thank you, guys. Rob Wilson, football finance expert. A joke in aside, did you always have a relegation clause in your contract and Ross? Yes, more often it was around 25% 30%, but the Luton one I had was 50% wage drop. So that's probably as a player, I don't think anyone signing a contract more than 50% relegation clause. And would you, would you in, like, would your agent be, If you had two or three teams, kind of looking at you two or three options,

would one of the kind of potential deal makers, deal breakers for those teams be, how much is the relegation drop? Not really because especially I never sign a club thinking we're going to get relegated. I think clubs have to put it in their contract just in case. 25% is not going to make me sign for Stoke over Crystal Palace, for example. And Luton, I didn't have a choice. 50% was I didn't have any other option. so I signed the 50%.

30 years after two civilian airplanes were shot down, why is the U.S. government now bringing charges against the former Cuban president, Raul Castro? I'm Asma Khalid, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Cuba's government is calling this all a political maneuver, but the Cuban exile community in Miami calls it justice, 30 years in the making. Is the U.S. setting the stage for a military intervention? For more, check out the global story on BBC.com

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West Ham issued a statement today saying that they will be honest and transparent with the fans going forward. Spurs have also issued a statement. I'll read a paragraph from that after they finished 17th for a second successive season. Here's part of the club's statement. Last September we recognised that something seismic had to change at Spurs. The Lewis family stepped in and authorized a full reset. that decision wasn't taken lightly and it came later than it should have.

But what has been put in motion is real and it marks a genuine break from what had come before. As part of that process, we discovered some uncomfortable truths. The qualities that make Spurs distinct, our football, our ambition, the connection between the team and its supporters have been allowed to fade.

Football success have not been driving our decisions. We did not have the right expertise in key roles. Is that, Is that accepting blame, or is that passing blame to others? I've read it several times, and I can't quite work it out, Rory. My instinct is it's trying to kind of suggest that the changes that were made at the start of the season, so when Daniel Levy left and they kind of appointed a new kind of executive sets of executives to replace him, that that was, that the kind of not having sporting success as the priority was,

associated with the old guard rather than new. That was how I read it, but it's, I mean, yeah, I agree, it may well be, I wonder if it's one of those public statements you get a lot now where it's sort of, it's designed to look like it's accepting blame, but really it's offering excuses. That seems to be how it's done generally. I think the hardest thing about that statement, who said that? Yeah, a club statement.

A club statement. But who, though? That's the hardest thing, I think, for a Tottenham fan right now. At least, I say at least, because it's harsh, very harsh to say it. When Daniel was at the top, he loved the club, and he took it. He took it on the chin. You know, there was some accountability for what was going on. Sorry, it's Peter Charrington, the non-exec chairman.

What does that, Rory, what does non-exec chairman mean? How does that work? Does that mean he's saying, I am the one who is representing Tottenham? Everything I've done right now has not been spot on, and I realize it, and I realize I'm going to be working on it, or is he just speaking on behalf of people who... Well, a non-exec chairman means that he's the chairman, but doesn't actually make any of the decisions.

That's the exact bit. So how are you supposed to get behind a statement with someone talking about such huge... It's a huge statement to make, right? Huge statement. And if someone, if for Caldoun made that statement, or... So Jim Rackbid made that statement.

That's them saying it representing their two clubs and saying, that's on me almost. I'm going to sort it out. That is just someone reading something on behalf of someone who we don't know who they are, but I'm also saying that I'm the Tottenham Hotspur. But I'm not convinced that the reason that Spurs have finished 17th two years in a row is because they've not had sporting priorities. I think a lot of what they've done is just they've made bad choices

and whether that's kind of the manager that they've appointed. And I thought Thomas Frank would do really well at Spurs and he didn't. That turned out to be the wrong decision. I don't think that was a lack of ambition or because they were thinking about whether they could get bad bunny to perform at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium this summer. Like I think it was because they thought

Thomas Frank was the best bet and it turned out he wasn't. Tudor, I think they got bad advice. There's clearly an issue, I think James Madison said something about this yesterday, but there is clearly an issue in terms of injuries. Madison said that you get some injuries in the course of a season such as his ACL

that are kind of the price of doing business. Like it happens in football. It's a show. game, it's not really, no one is to blame for the fact that NACL goes. But there have been an awful lot of kind of injuries at Spurs where you think, Han-on, there seems to be a pattern here, something, is maybe not. Not just this, not just this season. Can I add to that? I left Spurs in 2015, and that was the case,

that was the case 11 years ago as well, Rory. The medical department hasn't been good enough for the last decade and a half. So what do you mean what makes them not good enough? Quality of care, is it kind of expertise, number of staff, is it? everything you just mentioned, everything you just mentioned. I don't know if Joe, you were there more recent than me, anything you want to add. See, that was the one place that I avoided. I'm not saying, like, I have no knowledge of any medical staff at any team

because that was the last place that I wanted to be. I was very, very lucky throughout my career. I never had longer than two weeks. I've found that everywhere I've been, people moan. There's very few places that I've been at very few football clubs or I've had everyone in the dressing room saying that these are the best things and if I'm injured I'm going to go to. I've always found that people have seeked outside help. So tough one, but I get the murmurs and obviously if James Madison's saying it whilst he's still being

represented and don't forget he's just been rehabbed by Tottenham Hotspur, work closely. I've seen relationships when people have been coming back from long ACL injuries or any sort of injuries where you can see that friendships start to develop. But if he's saying that, the quality then that's a big statement. And what I would say is, you know, we don't have the Spurs Medical Department to talk to about their processes, which would be interesting in itself.

But what I would also say is it is not a discussion that has just happened now. I mean, we've had discussions about this on many, over previous seasons as well. Yes, Joe. So I was going to say, Andros, like, you're a very healthy, fit guy and have been through many injuries, I'm sure.

What makes a good medical room for you? Because the only way I judged it, like I say, I stayed out of it. I just judged it on if they were good guys because I just kept myself as fit out of it. But what makes a quality, quality room where you think, if I've done my hamstring, I'm going to be all right. They say six to eight weeks.

I'll be back in six to eight weeks. Knowledge, protocols. I think, like you said, many players go outside for second opinions. And when the second opinion from the expert is completely different to what, your medical department is saying time and time again on a consistent basis, then that raises questions about the quality you have at your own club. This is completely tangential and is not

relevant to Spurs. But is that great that people don't get second opinions? Because, I mean, what's the quality control on that? I think, I think, sorry, I've noticed that with like footballs, you kind of hear what you want to hear. And especially when you're vulnerable, you know, when you're injured, you're vulnerable. Like I say, I was lucky. I didn't really, I didn't really suffer any bad injuries or anything like that. But you are so vulnerable and you just want certainty at the end of the day because I don't know about you, but even when I felt a tweak, immediately my start my head's like, right, okay, so if I don't play this game and I missed the next three games, and that's my career over and that's probably my career done, I don't have to move the whole family.

And that's just a thought process. So you are incredibly vulnerable as a player and that's not looking for any sympathy. So you want certainty, you want confidence in how you're being treated. and the medical staffs have grown and grown and grown, and they're not always united. You know, you find that some people will roll the eyes when one person gives an opinion. It just creates a little divide in the medical room. And that's certainty sometimes that you work in one-on-one

if you go outside of your medical room. But then you're trying to get better. You're trying to get fit to come back, but then they take a fence in the dress, in the medical room at your club, and then things just don't go well, and then it can really spiral. I think, I don't know what your situation was

at City, etcher Joe, but from the clubs. I've had many conversations with medical staff in and outside of football. And it's not their fault, the budget, they're not allocated a budget to build a first class medical department. You're signing players for 50, 60, 70 odd million pounds. And then you're not giving the budget to the people tasked with taking care of those players. So then you're spending all that money, Dominic Solanke, for example.

Spurs spent 60 odd million on him. He spent most of the season injured. because you're not spending the money, the budget, some of the budget on the medical team to be able to facilitate someone like Dominic Selanky. And I think that's the biggest problem. Everywhere I've been, it's been the biggest problem that the clubs

are not giving budgets to the medical departments to equal with the value of the player they're signing. Locke must play a part, though, Andros as well, mustn't it? I mean, I take your point, but, you know, and Madison's point was actually, you know, it can be a coincidence, it can be unlucky, medium-acel,

Kula-Seski getting a horrendous knock off Mark Gayi. You see all these theories, and sometimes that's rubbish. We have been a bit unlucky. I think they have been unlucky in certain cases, but the number of injuries they've had for several years is, you know, I'm speaking to people at Spurs. You know, the club have wondered about kind of training intensity,

whether it's too high or whether it's been too high at certain points and then too low and whether that change brings kind of danger. there have been unlucky injuries that are the price of doing business, but there have been lots that would make you think that at least is due a review, I would say. Sorry, go on. It's the muscle injuries, the reoccurring muscle injuries,

which are the bigger problems rather than the unlucky ACL ones. The responses to the statement are in the main saying, seem to be going along similar lines, which is we've heard all of this before, some of the execs that are in place, they are not necessarily trusting the Spurs fans, which have come in under the new regime as well. And they want to see Deserby left to get on with the recruitment.

As somebody said somewhere, I've lost the, oh, here you go, he is a footballing expert. Leave the signings to him. Gordon Ramsey's investors, don't buy his insurance. ingredients for him. They trust his expertise. I mean, do you think because of just by the fact that he saved them, Joe, that he will have the all-wielding power? You'd like to, he held the cards when he signed, put it that way, he held, he had

Tottenham by them. He really did. If they were going to take him on, they really had to take him on. But I don't know if that's how he works, that's what he wants, is that is he the best manager when he's got that responsibility because a lot of coaches modern day coaches don't necessarily they haven't been bought up in that world where they literally put their feet up Monday to Thursday and then take care of business Friday, Saturday and do all the investments and the wheeling and the dealing. So I'd imagine he came in swinging saying I want to do it my way and he'll have that control but you've still got to have a relationship with the sporting director. You've still got to have a relationship with the board and it's still got to be what's the what's your two year plan

five year plan 10 year plan you've still got to have those conversations and like I say I don't know he'll obviously know of course he does because he got who's been employed by the club but what do top them want what do they want that they want to all of a sudden go back to being a standard top four team they've got so much to cover that's two seasons in a row 17 two seasons in a row nearly going out the Premier League they've got a lot of you know they've got a lot of making up to do This is maybe a slightly loaded question, Andros. But would you move players on, based on talent or based on attitude? Attitude.

I think first and foremost, now there's got to be no bad character energy. That's one thing that has to go. And that's a rule at one of the, like, Bryson and Brentford, these guys is no, I don't want to say the word. Yeah, we know the, yeah. No bad guy policy. We know, we know the word. Yeah, yeah, but that's a culture thing, isn't it? And that has to be the minimum,

because you let that grow, especially like senior players with big voices, you let them sort of infect other players, and it becomes a horrible, I've been in many, many horrible dress rooms, and you need to cut it at the source. If there is one or two who doesn't have the right attitude, you have to get rid of them before they infect the whole group.

Just in terms of the kind of control for the Zerbi Chappas, obviously Yohan Lange is there and is a, a sporting director. As recently as I'm going to say the end of February, maybe the start of March, so it does predate Deserby, and it may have changed since then. Tottenham wanted to appoint another one,

in addition to Langer. So I would suggest that the chances of Deserby. They may have changed their minds completely, and they might do a complete about turn, but my guess is that Spurs are more likely to start next season with two sporting directors than an all-powerful manager. Rorya, I don't think you can.

When the lifespan of a manager is, one and a half to two years. You can't give full control to that manager now. But I would say it has to be somebody that Deserby trust and works together with Deserby else, especially with Deserby's character. There's going to be a recipe for disaster again. I think it's sort of a false debate that we have over

should managers have complete control. I think the job now is too big for them to, like Chris isn't honestly, but well, the managers had a lot to do when I was playing as well. But the job is too big for, them to be doing that as well. Those deals are too complicated and there's too many staff. The organisations are massive.

I think it's very unlikely that there's many clubs out there where the manager is not part of those conversations. Whether that's Artetta and... So it's kind of semantics here though, isn't it? It's how much the manager's voice is the loudest in the room. And actually, so far, the three trophy winning

managers in the Premier League this season, are you maybe three of the most powerful managers within the Premier League, i.e., they carry a lot of weight in their club. Guadiola, Rettota and Emery. There is a structure around them that does a lot of that stuff for them, but the centrepiece of the structure is the manager.

Yeah, that seems to be the way that those clubs are run. Because, I was just having a cup of tea then, I thought something might come in. But because the difference is that you know, if you go back Andros a few years to when Spur signed Jed Spence and Antonio Conte made it very clear that he did not want Jed Spence which is ultimately proved actually whoever signed him got it got it right, not Antonio Conte.

But the example is there goes back to the loudest voice in the room. That's why I would throw that in. I had many years at Palace, Roy Hodgson, where he had up no saying who it came in. It was all Dougie Freeman. And when the player turned up, more than not, the player didn't play because the manager didn't okay it.

So it's just never going to work where you're signing players without even notifying the manager or giving him a big saying who does join or who doesn't join. So it's just never going to work. Would you move Romero on, Joe? I think he'll move himself on.

Right. I think it's been really different. difficult and the hardest thing for me to watch when he has played for Tottenham in big moments. He's not been able to control his emotions. I think I was at Old Trafford. I remember Tottenham starting well. And then he kind of just lost the ball in a moment where he probably felt like he shouldn't. He dribbled a little bit, but he's a bit of a maverick centre half. That's how he rolls. Sometimes he's going to take chances. And then because he lost that ball, just this switch went in his head and he just nailed someone over the top of the ball and it was an instant

red card 15 20 minutes into the game in such an important game for Tottenham and I just thought wow like I couldn't imagine that guy leading me there's no doubt he's a brilliant player and you can't take the emotion out of him because that is what makes him the player that he is he wouldn't have got to the level that he is he wouldn't be a world world cup winner without that emotion but to put that at the forefront of it and to let that be, let him do his thing, I think is a real difficult one for Tottenham Hotspur. And I just watched them as they were starting to unravel. I never thought that Tottenham players were chucking it in. They weren't not playing, but they were just, everyone seemed to just be doing their own thing. It became such an individual team. No doubt a lot

of them are talented and no doubt if you plunked a lot of them in a different team, a successful team that was going well, they'd shine. That's why they're at Tottenham. It's a big stadium. It's a big Kuta, sorry, big club. But I just watched every single one of the players unravel, emotionally, physically, mentally. Some people going under, some people, like I say, like Romero, just losing all that kind of tension in his chest as soon as he lost a ball smashing someone and getting sent off.

And that's the hardest thing, just didn't feel like anyone was in control of what was going on, and every single player's worst characteristic would come out. Joe, when we talk about Pep Guardiola, let me ask you about what he said to Sky last week, because I'm really interested in your response. He said, Guardiola, I want to confess that I have regrets. When you take a lot of decisions, a lot of decisions, you make mistakes.

There is one regret that I have deep inside for many years, and it's that I didn't give a chance to Joe Hart to be with me to prove himself how good a keeper he was. When you hear that, how does that make you feel? Well, it doesn't make me feel anything right now because obviously a lot of people sent me that, and I've heard it a lot of times. how I felt when I did hear that he said that,

I was surprised how I felt because I was actually quite emotional to myself because it was very nice for him to say it and I think he is genuine in what he said because he didn't need to say it. It wasn't a specific question. How did you feel about the Johal's situation? But that was 10 years ago.

10 years ago we shook hands. 10 years ago we had a difference of opinion. He ultimately won in the difference of opinion. and went on to absolutely smash his career and do brilliant things at Manchester City and we got on. But do you know what it made me feel? It made me feel like I was right to believe myself.

I was a right to say that I think I deserve the chance. And that was the only thing that I really took from it. Like I say, I get on with PEP, always have. I got on with him even when he looked me in the eye and told me that I was going to have to leave because he didn't think I was good enough to play the way that he played or he didn't have enough time to help me or give me a chance in his team.

But he told me to my face and we shook hands and like I say, we agreed to disagree and we got on from that moment on. But it was still, I think from a personal point of view in terms of what I thought of myself as a goalkeeper and the kind of how I got a little bit lost on loans and things like that for the next couple of years, it was nice to hear that. Does it almost give you closure here in that, Joe?

Or is it the opposite? Do you feel like, man, he could have taken my game to the next level, what we could have achieved together? How do you feel off the back of that? Do you know what, mate? I got closure at the time because I didn't leave, I didn't leave his office. I didn't leave any conversation until we had closure. It was from the moment that he walked through and, you know, I've, it's interesting

because I've gone through this many times and, you know, because it's an interesting part of my career. Of course it is because it involves one of the greats of the game. And that's my only real experience with him. Unfortunately, it was a negative one. But I got closure real quick. I do that in life, you know, whether it's with. him or whether it's with another conversation that I need to have on a daily basis.

Did it fire you up though? Did it fire you up going forward? Or was it actual closure, park it right? I'm just going to go with my career or did it? Because, you know, there are certain things that have been said to me over the years that I still use to fire myself up. Do you know what? I looked at, obviously, you do a bit of reflection when, you know, obviously Andros, you're still playing. But personally, I've had a fair bit of reflection in the two years out. And I've always, always worked that I wanted to prove people right. I'm not, I'm not bothered about proving people wrong. There's way too many naysayers, especially in the game that I, that we're in or, you know, the professional level of football, that you're never going to be able to

please everyone. And, and that's, that's apparent, you know, I'm good, I was good enough goalkeeper for some people, many people, not good enough for others. That's absolutely fine. But I've always had a core group of people and I've developed along the way in terms of family, friends, colleagues of people that do believe in me, one of them being myself. So I've always wanted to prove those people right. So the fact that he didn't feel like he had enough time to work me into his system and he felt like he had to look elsewhere, so be it, that's what he needed to do to do him. You know, I couldn't change that.

That was clear. I tried my best too, but, you know, like I say, he was ultimately going to hold the power and I wanted to play for England. That was my aspiration. I didn't want Pep Guardiola to tell me that I was a good player. I wanted to play for Man City in England. and that was pretty clear that I couldn't play for Manchester City so to play for England I had to go and look elsewhere

strikes me it would take an enormous amount of strength of character to continue to think like that as you say in the years afterwards when you're kind of on loan and you're looking at city becoming this kind of all-conquering force to not look at that as a kind of as a hinge point at which things can change for you and not not just strikes me to being genuinely amazing not to have any resentment about that

but that might be because I'm a very bitter person person. As well as that though, Rory, and this is not him, this is not his narrative. You know, he's not coming and claim that he changed Manchester City.

I didn't, I wasn't part of Man City when they were in relegation scraps or in the championship. Like, we achieved some pretty cool things. I've got some unbelievable memories, did some unbelievable things at Manchester City.

So what did I miss out? And I missed out on being a Champions League winner. Would I have been in that team, who knows? Would I, you know, Edison, incredible goalkeeper, but absolutely six Premier League's in eight seasons.

Like, would I have done that again? Who knows? Maybe I wouldn't. But all I know that when I had my opportunities and when I had my chance to play for them, I left it all out on the line. I've got unbelievable relationship with Manchester City as a football club with their fans. I absolutely adore them.

I grew up. I went from a boy to a man. My family started when I was at Manchester City. These are all the things that mean everything to me. And do you know what I also got to do? I also got to go and travel into Seriat. I played a year in, I played there. I went on loan to the likes of West Ham.

All right, it didn't go very well, but I still experienced it. I'm still in the conversation about what's going on in West Ham. And then to top it all off, I got three years at Celtic, which I would never have got. And I wouldn't change that for anything.

If we, which kind of moves on a little bit with you mentioned in Celtic, I'm interested in both of your opinions here, really, as the former players. It feels like we've had quite, a momentous weekend of people who are really important to clubs saying goodbye. And that could be on various different levels. Someone like Guadiola who has given this unprecedented amount of success to Manchester City

to someone like Seamus Coleman, who has been a stalwart of an Everton dressing room for 15 years and is a, you know, an icon of a football club, an icon to the fans of a football club. And you can obviously, then there's Salah and there's Robertson and Stones and Bernardo, Silver. You've got Iraola and after everything that he's done in such a sports short space of time at Bournemouth and Glasner, Kieran Trippia, who means so much to Newcastle fans because he was the first signing of the new era. For those, for the players in the squad, how difficult is it when somebody was so much impact at whatever the level may be moves on, Andros? It can be so difficult because you spend all day, every day with these guys and you almost get attached to them. And when it's someone, for example, like a Seamus Coleman who, everything goes through Seamus Coleman,

he has everything about Everton Football Club. And all of a sudden, this player is leaving the club and you're not going to see him anymore. And his professionalism and his leadership levels are not there. It can leave a huge hole in the dress room. So, yeah, it's extremely tough, whether it's a manager, a player or an experienced figure. It can be difficult for a dress room to keep the standards. recover from that. You were at Celtic when Poster Coglu left, Joe.

Yeah. And that feeling of someone because he did have a massive impact on. I mean, it's an obvious thing to say, but he did. Yeah, I was absolutely gutted. I've not had that feeling much. I'll be honest when it comes to managers. You know, in terms of I've always got on with pretty much all my coaches on a professional level, but I felt that what he was doing

was unbelievable to be a part of. But look, he went on to do bigger and better things. But, you know, in answer to your question, it depends who they bring in. Because that's the only time that you feel the hole. I've noticed it so many times and I noticed it from a young age in my career. I was like, oh, my goodness me, these guys that spend so much time with, they're so important. Football just keeps going and going and going. If you get caught up in it like that, too emotional, you almost become a robot with it

because you can't afford to get too attached to people. And then it's who comes in next. I was absolutely delighted when we found out. that Brendan Rogers was coming in because I knew he knew exactly what he was doing. I knew how much he loved the football club. I knew how important it was at the football club. So from that moment on, you shake hands, like I say,

wish I and draw the best. Who's coming in? Who's coming to replace them? How are we going to work on it? Like I just never call it cutthroat cold. I don't know what you want to call it, but I was never too emotionally attached to anything. Did strike me yesterday that it did feel like it,

like you were watching it in an era end more broadly, though, that, you know, Sal is one of the most recognisable players the Premier League had for the last 10 years. Gwadiola has obviously reshaped City, the Premier League, English football. He has been, I think, probably the defining character of the last 10 years of the Premier League. And I can't remember another day,

other than maybe when Ferguson stepped down at Man United, when it felt like something was shifting, something was changing. That's the only real comparison I can think of. And I remember being at Huddersfield when Venger left. But by that stage, and it was sort of four years too late and Arsenal were trying to finish fourth

like it didn't feel quite a... It felt significant but it didn't feel like okay, next season is going to be a bit weird whereas sitting here now it does feel as though next season the Premier League will look like a very different place without... Salar and Gwadior in particular

but even people like Bernardo it will be weird that he will not be part of Man City anymore. I agree it will be weird but honestly it will be until it won't and then someone will come in and then there'll be a new headline, there'll be a new, you know, some people will have, will have broken or someone will be in trouble or someone will have done unbelievable. We've got a World Cup.

It'll be, by the time the World Cup starts, it will already be forgotten. City will already have their next coach in charge. Liverpool will already be linked with whoever's going to play on the right. And away we go. But I think, I know I'm ruthless when I say that. No, you're right, though. I honestly, but I really want to hone in on yesterday how special it was. You know, you talk about it was everyone accepted that it was the right time.

You know, there was just, it was just a time to celebrate and enjoy and appreciate each other. And it was a really great feeling in the stadium. It was, yeah, it was absolutely iconic to unveil the stand and all those sorts of things. It just felt right. And like I say, there'll be, there'll be something happening. We've got Champions League final. Everything will just get kiboshed. Someone will take over from it and then we'll go again.

I just want to pick up on that because next season, I'm already now, I'm excited about the next season. You've got, I don't know if these guys have been confirmed, but you've got Jabby Lonsos, Chelsea, you've got Moreska potentially in at Man City. You've got Arsenal now with a title behind them now and the weight lifted off their shoulders. You've got Man United again starting with a new match or carry, taking the job on a permanent basis.

This is shaping up to be an amazing year next year. And yeah, it's sad at the end of the last era, but the new era is just around the corner, like Joe says. Thanks to Joe, Andross and Rory, two European finals to bring the year. over the coming days on Wednesday the Conference League Final Palace against Raya Vallecano, then the Champions League

final on Saturday with Arsenal against Paris San Jemarle. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game. Dame Serena Vigman, welcome to the fight. Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is?

You want to play in a way that they can show their skills so that's what we try to do. Win the war cop, it's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app. 30 years after two civilian airplanes were shot down, why is the U.S. government now bringing charges

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