Football Daily - MNC – Will De Zerbi save Spurs and is Tuchel’s mind made up already?

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

Chris Sutton, Steph Houghton and Ashley Williams join Mark Chapman to discuss Spurs’ potential appointment of former Brighton and Marseilles boss Roberto De Zerbi as their new manager on a long-term contract. The panel are joined by BBC Sport’s Senior Football Correspondent Sami Mokbel for details of the negotiations, ESPN’s Julien Laurens to talk about De Zerbi’s spell in France and the Athletic’s Jack Pitt-Brooke to reflect on Spurs’ decline in recent seasons.Correspondent John Murray joins the pod to preview England’s final friendly before they name their World Cup squad, and we hear from the England boss Thomas Tuchel and midfielder Elliott Anderson. And 78 year old Roy Hodgson is back in management at Bristol City, but why are so many clubs turning to interim managers?TIMECODES 01:21 – Igor Tudor out, will it be De Zerbi in? 05:36 – Sami Mokbel with the latest on the deal 11:13 – Julien Laurens on De Zerbi’s Marseilles tenure 16:05 – Jack Pitt-Brooke breaks down Spurs’ issues 27:53 – England v Japan preview with John Murray 29:19 - Interview with Thomas Tuchel 37:41 – Elliott Anderson speaking to Ian Dennis 49:35 – Roy Hodgson in at Bristol City5 Live commentaries this week – Tuesday 31st March – 7:45pm – England v Japan Tuesday 31st March – 7:45pm – Ivory Coast v Scotland (Sports Extra) Wednesday 1st April – 8pm – Women’s Champions League Quarter-Finals - Chelsea v Arsenal Saturday 4th April – 5:15pm – Men’s FA Cup Quarter Finals – Chelsea v Port Vale Saturday 4th April – 8pm – Men’s FA Cup Quarter Finals – Southampton v Arsenal Sunday 5th April – 1pm – Women’s FA Cup Quarter Finals – Arsenal v Brighton Sunday 5th April – 4:30pm - Men’s FA Cup Quarter Finals – West Ham v Leeds

This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman on the Football Daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday night club, Chris Sutton, Steph Horton, Ashley Williams are with us. Have you recovered Ashley? Yeah, just about. I think it was pretty disappointing, but it is what it is. You know what I mean? It was a gutting way to go out.

I presume that's what you're talking about. Yes, I'm assuming nothing out. I mean, I've done it. Unless there's other stuff going on that you're finding tough at the moment, I just was just talking about. just talking about Wales. Yeah, no, it's got him way to go out. It was so devastating to be in the stadium,

but it is what it is. I made a big thing last week, as Shee Given sat next to me, just with a blank sheet of paper, scribbling nonsense, that you, Steph, were the example to be held up for coming in with notes

and a nice, neat notebook, and you've come in without it. I know, I've let myself down, haven't our chaffas, I normally do bring in the black book, but it's up here, hopefully, so it should be all right. Right, all right.

Although, I didn't, didn't say this afterwards. When Shea left, Chris, he left all his notes behind, which included him writing down Spurs Nill Tottenham 3. Which may have explained some of his punditory last Monday night. And actually Spurs is where we start. Igor Tudor has gone. One week on from their 3-0 defeat at home to Nottingham Forest. I'll start with you, Chris, because it was exceptional. Obviously, they had to be compassionate as well following the death of his father,

but we expected it to come at some point. Yeah, we did it. I mean, I thought it was inevitable, probably like everybody else. You know, the team just didn't respond to him. And then the loss against a relegation rival, Nottingham Forest, and the manner of the loss, 3-0 absolutely walloped at home. That was, there was only going to be one outcome, really. and yeah

the short-term specialist Igor Tudor didn't work and by all accounts it looks like Roberto Deserby may be going in which I mean that's I mean you can look at it in a number of ways but this is a guy who

I think we would all agree is more of a builder of teams and it may take a while to implement a style of play which they haven't really got that long where they can sort of go go down the route of players making mistakes and dropping valuable points

and otherwise they're going to get relegated, aren't they? We'll look at Deserbie, we'll look at what he did at Marseille, we'll look at where Spurs are at the moment, and we'll look at how Spurs have gone from a Champions League final in 2019 to where they are now. But there is a feeling, Steph,

that the Spurs hierarchy have brought this on themselves over the course of this. season. They've made a right mess of it is what a lot of people would say. Yeah, and I mean, I think results sure that is at this moment in time that Spurs is in a bit of a mess in the sense of you've brought an interim manager that you've sacked after seven, eight games, which is probably not ideal. You probably want to get them to the end of the season where your club's safe, but I think it's probably the other way around. They should have brought

Deserbeian in that February in terms of then give them the time. I think Chris is right. I think the way that Deserby plays for me. Marseille, what he did with Brighton, I think he's notoriously does a win his first few games because of the style of players trying to implement. And for players, they need to be fresh in the mind that this is going to be a new style of play and he's going to be asking them to do different things that they're probably not used to. And I'm just thinking, as a player's point of view, I don't know what Chris

and Ash think, like, their heads in terms of they probably don't know whether they're coming or going in the sense of you've gone from Thomas Frang, a different style of football to Igor Tudor, which... What, Poster Coglu to Frank? Yeah, like you're playing this really risky football and you're going to Frank, which is a little bit more direct in the way that you play, but you go to Igor Tudor where you're just leaving yourself so open against the likes of Nottingham Forest

which is not acceptable to then deserve. We know that he likes to play open, expansive football. So from a player's point of view, that's going to be really, really hard to get your head around. And the fact is, they've only got seven games to stay in this league. And at this moment in time, out of them teams in terms of Forest West Ham, Tottenham and not in form. Particularly for the defenders, Ashley. Actually. Yeah, well, that's been them all season.

It definitely didn't get any better with Igor Tudor, but defensively they've just been, for players that individually you would suggest the top defenders before the season, they've just looked all over the place. And it can happen. Normally it would happen to one player, but it's every player.

So that doesn't give them a base to, that's why the deserby appointment is a little bit surprising. I understand they probably would have wanted him before. You would have suggested maybe before Tudor. I think he was at that point saying that he wanted to come at the end of the season, if at all. He's obviously made it known that he wants to come now. But like the guys have said, he's the type of manager that's very meticulous, very detailed, doesn't just play a type of football that gets you out of one game.

He builds for the future. So with little time, he's really. He's a big manager to be coming in. I know it's a five-year deal they're talking about, but we're coming in to managing the championship. You can't imagine he'd be looking at it that way. So I'm not sure how these next seven games are going to go. Let's bring in BBC Sports, Sammy Mockwell,

to take us through exactly what's happened today. Contracts that are being discussed. Why now? Why not back then? What about the future? Take your pick, start wherever you want. Let's start with why now and not then. There was a then, and they did try in, February. They did make an intimation to Roberto de Zerbi, but I don't forget, he had just

left Marseille then, and I just don't think he was in a personal space to jump straight back into work, which in my mind is absolutely fair enough. Even more recently than that, they had another attempt, I think just before the Liverpool game to see if he'd be open to taking it. Even then it was no, I'd rather wait until the end of the season. Those attempts have obviously accelerated over the past 24 to 48 hours, and it's our understanding now that those discussions are at an advanced stage, and there is every chance from the information that I have that Roberto Deserby will be the new permanent head coach of Tottenham by the end of the week. Okay, so I understand your point about

just leaving Marseilles and therefore not feeling ready to go there what's changed between before Liverpool away to now apart from not going to Liverpool away look with not being absolutely I'm not involved in the discussions right

between Tottenham and Roberto's disappointed Sammy that'd have been a hell of a scoop but you would I think it is safe to say you could you know there would be a, and then you can make an educated presumption that as part of ongoing negotiations between all the parties, you would imagine there would have to be some sort

of provision should Tottenham get relegated. But look, I think Roberto Deserby would see this and has seen this job as taking this job at the moment as a risk. Because come the summer, he would probably be in line. for or one of the contenders for a number of jobs should they come up right um so i think that conversation would look to maybe had at the end end of season should they get relegated i don't think they will and also in in football money talks right so um you'd imagine they'd have thrown toton would have thrown the kitchen sink at roberto deserby and um for whatever reason whatever

a person reasons he's had. He has changed his mind and he is now fully open to taking that job now immediately. Yeah, I mean, it does say, being quite cynical, it does seem like it must be something financial. And you talk about, you know, some kind of provision, but I think everything which we've been, which we've been hearing and reading is it was, as you said, Sammy, too big of a risk for Deserby. Why not wait and see if Tottenham stayed up and then take it? So, It still seems unclear. Are you suggesting that if Tottenham go down with him at the helm, the provision is he can just walk away?

I think there would have to be that conversation at the end of the season. But Tottenham, from their perspective, don't really, well, don't want to make another interim appointment. They want this appointment to be their manager for the next five years. that's why they're offering him a long-term contract. I get you, and I absolutely get your point, Chris, that something must have happened

or something has changed for him to change his mind. And you are right to be skeptical and to think it would be financial. But it could be that he's backed himself. It's like, well, I do want this job. I back myself to keep them up. And if I do keep them up, I would have had seven weeks to bed some of the players

in into my own style, and then we can hit the ground running next season. If you're a Tottenham fan, just if that happened, say he took the job, they go down, and then he walks away, if you're a Tottenham fan and you know that once he's signed the contract, that that's going to be the case, do you feel that he's totally committed? I'm not saying that he would walk away, but I'm saying they would likely have to be a conversation as how they can move forward, because I think we all see it here. tonight, do you see Roberto Deserby managing in the championship next season if they were to go down?

I saw reports today linking in with Manchester United. That's the kind of calibre of manager that we're talking about here. So to see all the prospects of Roberto Deserby managing in the championship would seem strange to me. It just seems wild that if he doesn't complete the job and he doesn't keep them in the Premierly, you might as well. well I've got an interim manager because it's seven games. So in terms of like even though you sign potentially a five-year contract as a spurs

supporter, you really want someone that is going to be committed whether they're in the Premier League or the championship. I think that's how I would see if that was my club that I was supporting. And I think from a deserby point of view, if he doesn't keep spurs up, then of course reputation probably it does take a bit of a bat run in terms of all them clubs that he's probably been previously linked apart from Tottenham. Well, look at the Tottenham structure and how they've got themselves into them. this in a little while.

Sammy, thank you very much. Sammy Mockbell with us. Let's bring in part of the Five Live Euroleaks, French football expert, Julianne Laurent, to talk about what does Erbie did at Marseille? He had just over 18 months as their head coach after he left Brighton. Why did they part ways, Jules?

Hello, guys. Well, there's a few reasons, really. I guess the main one is from his own testimony, really, what he said was that he ran out of gas, ran out of energy. It'd been a tough season in many respects. There was the Champions League where it was a bit disastrous in the end and they got knocked out after that incredible goal, if you remember from Benfica against Real Madrid,

where for a long time they should have qualified and finished top 24. In the league, it'd been difficult despite beating PSG, for example, for the first time in a very long time at the Velodrome. But he had, he clashed many times with the French media, especially the local media down there in Marseille. Marseilles, as you know, Chappas is a very, very, very powerful. passionate football city, which suited him perfectly and fitted him really well with him because he loved that passion and he lived it to the full.

But I think at that time, it was probably a little bit too much. And also at that time, which is maybe why I think in a way disappointed the Marseille fan the most is that there was adversity. The team was not playing that great. Things were tough. And instead of trying to come, you know, to beat that adversity in a way and make things better, then it felt certainly to me and to a lot of people. people there that it was a bit of quitting from himself. And I don't think this is great for a manager

like him who is so strong-minded and so good on his own ideas and identity and DNA and all of that. I felt a little bit disappointed and I felt disappointed for Marseille and their fans as well. But there was some positive things, some really good things, especially in the first season. But the second season, a bit like a brighton, to be fair. It felt like things were just going out of hands for him for what he wanted to do with that team. How expansive was he at Marseille? And we'll go to talk to Jack Pitt, Brooke, from The Athletic in a little while, about Spurs.

And his article has all sorts of stats and various things in there. But it also quotes Deserby from an interview in June 2025 on an Italian podcast where he said there, he lives for the result, and that if he could, he would put two goalkeepers in to defend, which currently would Spur's. you can make your own jokes about that. Was he pragmatic or was he expansive or did it depend on the opposition?

No, I think he wanted to do a lot of the same things that I did at Brighton, to be fair, and never got to that height in terms of the quality of football. You know, remember the box and remember the style and some of the stuff in terms of build up play that we saw at Brighton. That was really outstanding. He never got to that kind of level in Marseille, maybe because he didn't have the right players for it. And fair enough, he tried a lot of midfrey.

fielders especially over the two seasons, especially this current season before getting the side. Players like Angel Gomez, for example, like O'Reilly, the one from Brighton, who came and actually Deserby tried him for a few games, didn't really fancy him, them, didn't really like what he saw, and then they were out of the door as quickly pretty much as they arrived. I mean, there's this video that you can easily find on social media that I saw did the round a little bit today with Ismail Kone, who was very promising at Watford signed from us. say a Canadian international who now is doing really well in Syria and that moment where the Zerbi clashed with him at training

because he felt that Kone didn't release the ball quickly enough. And it just, but you see the anger that De Zerby had towards this young, really young, inexperienced player who did nothing wrong apart from, yes, keeping the ball probably a little bit too much for what Deserby wanted his midfielder's to do in that drill especially. And the whole thing just exploded. And that's the Zerby for you.

So I think he was a bit frustrated that he's, his brand of football that we saw in England, especially, that worked so well, again, especially the first year, didn't really happen in Marseille. And I think that really bothered him. And it could not really work out why he was not working. So then he started Chappas, changing the formation, changing tactics to the point that we saw this season in the Champions League, for example, against Liverpool at the Velodrome where they lost 3-0, where he did was completely silly, why he tried and never worked really. And by the time he corrected it, it was too late. and we had a few games like that

and that's the thing I would say to Spurs fans and people who follow Spurs is that over such a short amount of time if he doesn't get it right straight away he will get heavily frustrated and I'm not really sure where that would lead that team. Jules will let you go at that point

on the We will talk soon Julianne with us let's look at the bigger picture with Spurs here Jack Pitt Brook from the Athletic joins us now covers Spurs saying it wouldn't be like this under Daniel Levy

is likely to wind up Spurs fans even more. With him going, and they now have Vinar Venkateshim as their CEO, who makes the decisions? I suppose the assumption always was that Daniel Levy was the decision maker at Spurs. Is that fair, and therefore who does make the footballing decisions now? Because I suppose that's what we're talking about. Yeah, so I think right up until the play.

point of his sacking in December. Daniel Levy was, I think, probably the most powerful single decision maker in any Premier League Club in the sense that he had so much accumulated power and responsibility and it was Tottenham Hotspur was

run in a very, very centralised way through Daniel Levy. And you can argue about whether that was an outmoded way of running the club. I think it probably was on balance, but that was a system that Tottenham had. But since his dismissal in September, the Lewis family have basically introduced

a new governance structure, as they would call it, which has, at the heart of it, Vinayvankathe, the CEO, with the new executive leadership team reporting to him. Johan Langer is there as one of, as currently, the only sporting director. Up until a few months ago, he was one of two sporting directors

when Fabio Perachchi was briefly back at the club in an official role. And then obviously on top of them, you've got the board, which includes Peter Charrington, who's the chairman, who effectively represents the living, family trust and then the Lewis family themselves, the majority shareholders. And they, you know, and lots of the bigger decisions will go via the Lewis family too. They will have a view on the bigger strategic stuff. So it feels a lot less centralised in one person than it did during Daniel Levy's sort of 24 year, 10 year running the club.

I suppose what you lose when you hear that, Ashley, is experience, don't you? right or wrong on some of the decisions and fans, you know, were frustrated with his negotiating positions at times and how late he left things to get the right price, which then didn't leave them enough time to bring players in. And we can go back as well to the Champions League final of 2019 that I think a lot of Spurs fans didn't feel that they never built on, really, in terms of how they then strengthen the squad.

But you lose the experienced hand on the tiller, don't you? Yeah, and I think we can, in hindsight, it's a great thing, we always talk in hindsight but it's a football thing, isn't it? Because even, you know, there was a lot of noise about Daniel Levy and now he's not there and things have got worse. So it clearly was better with him in charge.

Similar to the manager, I don't know, but if Thomas Frank was still in charge, would they be in this position? Maybe, probably not. I don't know. Who picked Thomas Frank? Was that a Daniel Levy? appointment then Thomas Frank no so I mean you know you could say that Daniel Levy is a large part of the mess which Tottenham are in because essentially

Thomas Frank you know not so an ego Tudor covered himself in glory of course he didn't but you know that was that was maybe the catalyst that that appointment and that was Daniel Levy's appointment and if you look while we're praising him go on yeah no and if you it just it's it's spurs are so messy aren't they even now you're explaining the hierarchy. It sounds messy. Before it was messy, the managers they've gone through,

top names, that haven't been able to produce anything, managers that are now at other Premier League clubs that are doing well for their team. No, no. Obviously, Marino has done well. Conte.

The list goes on. So there's got to be something in that football club that's just not right. Players aren't playing well. If you take them out and put somewhere else, they'd probably play well. So from top to bottom,

it just seems like not a good place to work. I don't know what that is. I'm not in the doors there. When you do one of your athletic deep dives into Spurs, Jack, of thousands of thousands of words, where would you trace the malaise back to? Would you go back to the aftermath of the 2019 Champions League final and not building on it?

I think that the failure to build on Pochitino's great team started before the Champions League final in 2019. I think that's probably when I would date it from in the sense that the peak Pocetino years were clearly the best Spurs team in the lifetimes and most Spurs fans, but also

the one moment where they had a manager who was cutting edge where they had a strategy that was aligned and worked for the players and a style of play that the fans brought into and everybody was singing for the same in Hymishit. That was the last time they had that and that was 2016, 17, 17,

But the failure to back Pocetino, by which I don't just mean buying him players, I also mean selling players, selling the players that he wanted them to sell. That meant that they kind of lost their way strategically. And I actually think that the combination of, in a sense, the combination of getting the champions you find in 2019 and then opening the stadium a few weeks before that, it almost, it kind of gave Spurs the wrong lesson in the, I think by that at that point, Spurs became a little bit too focused on acting like a big club being seen to be, like a big club. And that's what led them into the appointment of Jose

Marino, which was a disaster, Antonio Conte, which was a disaster, really. And they kind of lost their way. And I think ever since then, they've never really, they've never really got a good strategy back. I thought they were briefly onto a good thing with Antipostoclo. Obviously, he did win them a trophy. But I think overall, they've never found, they've never found a way to be cutting edge again. They've never found a way of playing that the fans buy into. they've never found a sort of healthy approach to buying and selling players that fits that kind of allows them to compete with their rivals

and so it's basically been a strategic mess for about what, seven or eight years now. They're an odd club, Tottenham, in the way that they've been run. Even if you look back before Pocitina, though, and we often talk about the Big Six on the Monday Night Club, and they are a Big Six club.

You look back the last 20 years, 15 out of the last 20 years, Tottenham are finished in the top six. Three out of the last five, Tottenham have finished outside the top six. And that comes after the, you know, the Pocetino departure. And yet, in many ways,

you take your head off to Daniel Levy because he tried to bring in a serial winner in Joseo. But it didn't, well, Jack had no better than me, but it didn't quite match up his defensive style of football was what the Totman fans wanted. there were oddities there and then, and then, you know, then after that, but none of them have worked there. Have they, Chris, to that sense, whatever they've tried and they've gone down all sorts

of different paths with managers, none of them, and Antiposalgo, go, well, hang on a minute, I won the Europa League, but none of them have worked in terms of either trophies or endearing themselves to the Spurs fans or both. No, exactly. No, was he ever going to be a fit for what Tottenham? support as wanted. Probably not. Conte, then going down the Conte route, you know, another winner.

But, you know, Conte, you know, came out and lambasted the club, didn't he, after his departure. But we also forget what Pochitino had and Marino had, and Conte had. They did have Harry Kane and Son, who

carried the club for the best part of a decade with their goals. And Pochartino, unfortunately, for him. Harry Kane left Pocitino, you know, did replace the goals that season. They ended up finishing fifth. But I think what I'm trying to get at, with Marino and Conte, they were bringing in top-class managers, didn't necessarily suit the Tottenham style, but they didn't really back them well

enough in terms of bringing transfers in. And I think that that's been an issue where they've, you know, they've tried to sort of crowbar managers in with these reputations. but none of them have been the right fit. And now it's led to this situation where it's absolutely desperate for them. What's your conclusion at the end of all of this, Jack, without sounding like your university lecturer. But what is your conclusion on where they are at

and what they have done over the course of the last 12 months? Well, I think they're in a disastrous position in the Premier League. I think that that is the combination of years of strategic drift in which they've been, I think, a bit caught unawares by the level of the other Premier League teams increasing. Like, it's not just that Aston Villa and Newcastle United have leaprogged them. It's just that the overall level of Premier League teams is so high now that you can't be, you can't afford to let your squad deteriorate.

You can't afford to make the wrong managerial choice, which they did in the former Thomas Frank. So there's quite a few long-term factors. And then there's also quite a few immediate term factors, like the, I mean, the fact that Madison and Kulosefsky haven't played at all this season, they're only two real creative players, has been a complete disaster for them. The recruitment of the last few years hasn't been good enough. They obviously got Thomas Frank wrong, and then probably even more damagingly,

they probably left Thomas Frank in the job for too long. They shouldn't have let him get all the way through to the middle of February, effectively wasting the January transfer window in doing so. Then they got Eagle Tudor wrong. So, look, I think there's more than enough blame to go around. It's not just Daniel Levy. just the Lewis family. It's not just Vancatesh, Frank, Tudor.

It's not just the mentality of the players. There's any number of things that you can point at. But I think it's kind of a confluence of all of that stuff, short, medium and long term, which has led to this. Can they reset? If they stay up, can they reset? To an extent, I think if they stay up, they'll be in a

you know, obviously they'll be in a much stronger position. They'll have, assuming deserving deserving gets a job and stays, they'll have a top manager. But they need to back him with recruitment, hypothetically, if they were, if they did stay up, they would need to back him with recruitment that fitted what he wanted to do. One of the many problems they've had in the last few years is, you know, they didn't

bat Postalcoglu, they didn't back Conte, they didn't really back Marino, they didn't back Pochitino. And to an extent, I feel like there's no point in having these big name managers unless you're going to try and deliver them the players they want. And also they changed, they changed styles so much. The stylistic jumps from Conte to Postercoglu is huge and then Postercoggi to Frank is big and then Frague to Tudor and then Tudor back to Desirby

like it's, they couldn't, they are effectively swerving across the road from one side to the other in terms of football style and that makes it very difficult to construct a squad that can play a consistent way because every manager wants a different type of player. New teams, new rules, every race live,

on BBC sounds. It's all right to the lights, and for the lights, on five live sports. This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily podcast. England played Japan tomorrow in their last match before Thomas Tuchel announces his squad for this summer's World Cup.

John Murray has spoken to him today. Before we hear from him, and more players withdrawing, John? Yes, there's quite a lot of focuses you can imagine on the Arsenal players, Declan Rice and Bukai Osaka, who withdrew from the squad. So that means that four Arsenal players have pulled out of the England's squad during this window, which means that in total, 10 Arsenal players have withdrawn from the various international squads. However, as Thomas Tugel said to his today, you know, he can only talk about the England players.

And obviously, Aberrachie Ezra withdrew immediately after the League Cup final wasn't able to play in that. We know about his injury. He's going to be out for a period of time. We saw Nani Madweke pick up the injury that he did in the Uruguay match. He left Wembley in a leg brace. And on Declan Rice and Bukai Osaka, Thomas Tuchel said to us today, they have had medical assessment. They wanted to play.

He said they were clearly in discomfort. Although he did say, if it had been the last match of the season, if it had been a final, then maybe they would have played. But he said they will all be out for some days. So he could only talk about those Arsenal players from his experience. Okay, let's hear it from him. Very good camp, very good atmosphere. Unfortunately, we suffered some injuries,

like suffer from some injuries from the game and even from the guys who came a bit later into camp. But that's what it is. all the players who are available are in good shape, good atmosphere and ready to go. And what is the balance that you're thinking of for the Japan match, bearing in mind you've brought in the nine players, but it is the last chance, isn't it,

for those who are here to stake a claim in an England shirt? Yeah, last chance for everyone. Yeah, but, you know, sometimes the reality of it is, like, we have, of course, we have a picture of the players and we see them, So it is a last chance. It's just a reality and we want to take the chance. We want to have a good performance. We prepare them in the best way possible and we will push them.

It's very likely that we bring new legs, fresh legs on the pitch who haven't started the first match. So to share the load, we have a chance to involve a lot of substitutes because we have 10 changes possible in three slots. So we will push, we will push. We want to have a physical game. We want to have an entertaining game. We want to be on the front foot. at the same time, I mean, yeah, we have a clear picture of a player. It's not everything is decided tomorrow, so you can play with freedom and to express yourself.

So Japan have agreed to the maximum number of substitutions, as they did during the Scotland match. At the same time, it does really disrupt the match, doesn't it? Or is it more important for people to be on the pitch? No, it doesn't. I have a different view. It doesn't because we don't have 10 slots to do one change, each that would disrupt the match, but we have the same amount of slots. And if you change three players or five in a slot, where's the big difference? Not so much. It's a bit easier, maybe not so easy for the players to adapt to the many changes,

but the flow of the game is not disrupted by the number of the substitutes. It's good for us, I like it, because it gives us a chance to take care of the players. That's what we want. We can push, we can play more. intense because we have the chance after 60, 70 minutes to change and to impact the match from the bench and to give the players the best load possible. Do you agree with him, Steph, at the end there?

All those substitutions massively disrupt the flow of matches, don't they? Yeah, it does, and even if you're that player that's coming on, it takes you five, ten minutes to get into the rhythm of the game. But I think that was the case the other night in terms of when we played Uruguay. I think already there's a lot of changes in the start, aren't 11 but of course then you're bringing subs on and I think even though the way that you're saying in terms of

that too cool is saying in terms of the squad selection as a player when it gets that last camp before selection you do feel that pressure that's just a natural thing no matter what you're doing with club when you put that England shirt on you do feel you have to perform in that game because it might

be the only chance that you get so would you be surprised if the atmosphere is as good as he's saying it is I think in terms of what he wants from an England team, we've seen that with Garra Southgate. I think that's been a big improvement from England is that everybody now wants to go and play at England.

The team togetherness seems very, very good. I think people want to go and enjoy the camp. But, of course, football's competitive, and these boys play start for top top clubs in the Premier League and in Europe. So, of course, there's going to be a competitive nature. And I'm sure, come tomorrow, everybody will be wanting to impress. Ashley, do you like, from a player's point of view,

is he tried to whittle this down and manage minutes and give people chances and look at who we want in certain positions? Is he managing it as well as can be expected? Do you think from a player's point of view? Yeah, from the players' point of view, yeah, because it seems like everyone's getting a fair crack at it and everyone's got minutes on the pitch,

he's seeing them with his own eyes in training. So from a player's point of view, You probably wouldn't have any arguments with that. Whether you get selected or not, you feel like you've had your chance. It's not like he didn't select you for the ones that he has selected. But I think it does disrupt the match to go back to what you said. It definitely disrupts the match when you bring on so many players.

But from his point of view, probably because he doesn't have to make 10 separate substitutions, that's what he's probably saying. It's easier for him to just do it in three slots, however many players. from a player's point of view, I think it's difficult because you're always thinking he knows. Even I'm thinking Thomas Tuchel knows probably the whole squad that he's taking. I can't imagine someone's going to turn around tomorrow and do something.

And he turns around and goes, oh, let's take it. Sorry, how many is it, John, 25? 26. You think he knows he's 26. Yeah, I do. I think he's definitely made a list of his 26. And I don't think it will change because what can someone do in a game that changes his mind? I'm not sure what they could do.

Why are you scowling, Chris? I wasn't a scowls my normal face. I agreed. I agree with Ash. I think he knows who is going to take. I think he's just trying to look for positives, Mark, with the substitution thing. I think these games, quite frankly, are a bit of a stinker for Thomas Tuchel, really. And I think he's handled the injury situation really well.

I mean, I'd be surprised if Arsenal had 10 injured players, you know, for their next game. I think one or two maybe back in. And he's, yeah. Not for the first time this evening. But why get involved in all that stuff? Everybody knows what's going on. He's managed at club level and being successful. He understands, you know, what's going on and players are in a title race.

and also the need for players who have played so many minutes this season and they need a little bit of rest. I think he's handled the situation really, really well. Sorry, John, did you get the impression that he knows who he's taken already? Pretty much. He talked about how I think the phrase he used today was he's got a few headaches coming. But he certainly knows the bulk of them. And in actual fact, he said to us of the 11, you know, this split squad, the 11, who would you join, as it turned out, it's only nine of them.

But, I mean, he effectively said last week that if the plane was leaving, that 11 would be on the plane. And I think in the team that starts tomorrow, the expectation would be that most of those nine would probably be in the starting lineup. So in terms of opportunities for the other members of the squad to show for the last time in an England shirt what they can do for. And, you know, time is probably going to be limited. And actually, when you think about it,

what happens from now to the end of the season? and the remaining Premier League matches, those who are involved in Champions League League FA Cup, those are probably the moments that will help them to force his hand and rather than what happens in this match against Japan, when also, incidentally,

Japan, who played Scotland on Saturday, they'll probably change most of their team as well. If he knows his 26, John, like for example, in his head, he knows whether he's going to take all of Bellingham, Rogers, Foden and Palmer, does he? I would have thought so. I think it'll be interesting actually to see what Palmer does tomorrow,

what role he plays if he's in the starting lineup. Because, you know, there's such strong competition in that area. But of course, you know, we talk about this, does he know he's 26? But he's got to be ready for all eventualities. You know, there might be a plague of right backs, which means that Trent Alexander Arnold does actually get into the picture. You know, he's got to be prepared for the, all of the players that he could potentially lose.

Let's hear from one of the men we expect to be definitely on the plane. Elliot Anderson missed the first game against Uruguay. He's been talking to Ian Dennis. Thomas Tuchel was asked last week about the 11 players who were arrested. Would they be going to the World Cup? To which he said if the World Cup was next week, then the answer would be yes. How satisfying is that to know that the England manager has already said that you're that far down the line? Yes.

It's really nice to hear that, I think. But the World Cup isn't next week, so I've still got plenty of work to do. I've got the end of the season to focus on and keep my standards high and stay fit on. It says everything, though, about you, the fact that in the space of what, six games, you've already established yourself in his thinking, though, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's definitely a good thing. So I got given my chance in September, I think it was. Yeah, I'd like to think I took it and I've took everything in my stride and I'm really happy with how it's all went. Yeah. And how was the rest? Yeah, it was really nice. I got off to Spain and enjoyed a bit of sun for a few days and, yeah, just chilled out. That's been a shock to the system coming back to this weather then.

Yeah, it was. It's been freezing. Was it important, though, not just from a physical point of view, but mentally to have that rest? Thomas Tuchel's been talking about that in the press conference today. Yeah, 100%. I think just sort of resetting your mind and chilling out and relaxing and not always having a game to focus on in the next few days

but yeah I'm back into it right now and I'm fully focused on tomorrow when you look at that midfield then who would your third one be in it Chris if you've got Anderson and Rice who are nailed on who's your third one well that's the great debate I know that's what I'm asking is the idea of the show

Yeah, I know. You always ask me the most difficult ones, don't you? First. I would... Who would the third one be? Well, would Bellingham be the third one? I don't know. I'm asking you. Look, it's got reservations about him.

Could it be... What, you talk about, number 10, or is he playing one and... Well, I don't know. You tell me what? Oh, for crying out. John, what's he doing? Is he playing it? Is a three?

Is he playing a... Ten, what's he doing? Blime. I think, to use the game, the phrase, if the World Cup was starting tomorrow, it would be Morgan Rogers because Bellingham's not fit enough to play. Now when it comes to the actual crunch

and the first match in the World Cup for England against Croatia in June, will it be Bellingham? Will it be Rogers? You know, that's what we wait to find out. And that's why I mentioned Cole Palmer as well because he has to come into the equation too. I mean, the expectation would be,

it would be Bellingham. but Rogers has played so well and when this team got into the groove that we'd been waiting for in the autumn under Thomas Tugel in that qualifying group it was Rogers Anderson and Rice that were the three that really clicked together I feel as though go on Chris

no hang on Chris you've had your chance shut up you've had your chance sorry Chris I think if he plays Anderson and Rice I think you'll play Rice a little bit deeper so I think to play Bellum in that 10 it would probably suit England more because there's that freedom to link up with Kane and running beyond. But I think you're right

in terms of what you said, John, in terms of Rogers has got the shirt at this moment in time because it's a performance for England but also for Villa. But I think if you get a fully fit Jude Bellanum by the time June comes, I think it would be so tempting not to start Jude, if I'm being honest. And another thing as well with the midfield,

this is about tomorrow night. I think it's, you know, whether he might have a look with Rice not being there at O'Reilly in the midfield position I mean it might be that O'Reilly plays at left back but he's got Hall who could start at left back tomorrow potentially

and O'Reilly last match he played scored two goals at Wembley in the league cup final and we know that he can play in that position and but there's Coby Menau as well who came on to substitutes on Friday night maybe he would like to see him in that position the other thing here

Ashley and John can tell me if I'm I'm wrong. He insinuated, didn't he, that Maguire would be the fifth choice centre half at the moment? Four, I think he said. Oh, I thought he said fifth.

I thought he had conser gay, stones. Chalaba. And Chalaba, yeah, for Chalabas for fertility. Yeah. But McGuire would be the fifth. Is that slightly

harsh for you, Ashley? Or does that make sense? No. Well, that's, in my opinion, with the experience that he brings, you've got to feel like he comes across like he's a good personality to have. And I keep talking about when you go away at international tournaments,

it's not all about just taking the 26 best players that you can find. You need to have good personalities in there because you're living together every day and it sometimes gets monotonous and sometimes it gets boring and sometimes you need to pick me up. You need good personalities. You need good characters. You need leaders.

You need positive people around the group. I think Harry McGuire, fits into all of those so whereas he might not start I don't know does he start he starts Gahey and then does he start stones or cons or whoever it might be but

you would want I would want McGuire travelling with my squad before a say a chalabre for example just because of what he brings off the field is it in his head is stones too big a risk

as well injury wise I mean that's you know I heard Tuchel talk about stones he's talking them up. We know what a great player he is. But is it four Premier League starts this season? He started twice in the last four months to FA Cup matches. But I did say to him, Chris, last week,

as we had on what was that, was it, Thursday night, talking about John Stones, because that's at the point where we found that he said, Thomas Tuckill, he turned up for this squad fit, but then felt something. And, you know, clearly the intention, he might have been captaining England on Friday night. had he been fit.

But I did say to him, do you need to know that he's 100% fit if you're going to select him to go in the World Cup squad? And he said, I guess so, yes. Is his feeling, though, John, that with the others ahead of Maguire, that they are all, I mean, look, you can understand how gay he's ahead of Maguire.

But with the others, do they all provide a bit more versatility? Is that what he's thinking? or how he might deploy stones or how he might deploy concert or Chalabar as well. If he needs them, they're not just a centre half. Whereas I suppose Maguire is

hour and out of centre half and you're not going to play him anywhere else, are you? Yeah. I mean, he knows very well what Maguire can do. However, he'd not had Maguire in his England squad. You know, either because of injury because of the fact that he wasn't regularly playing for Manchester United, but as we know now, he is playing in and starting every match for Manchester United under Michael Carrick

and came in, played and as Tuchel himself said, did exactly what he would have expected from him. And when you talk about versatility, I think we do have to keep mentioning with Maguire. He is England's leading scorer as a defender. We know that the role that he can play in both penalty areas and Tuchel will be well aware of the fact that if everyone's fit,

England's starting 11, we'll probably have Rice and Sacker who take the corners for our. Arsenal, and if you've got Harry McGuire on the end of those, you know, it's blindingly obvious what that means. So at the end of all of that, are we basically saying tomorrow's pointless because he already knows what he's going to do? Well, I have to say, on reflection on Friday night, you know, I do ask myself the question.

What am I doing it for? I ask myself the question. He's left out half the squad. would it be actually better not to play those matches at all? And I know that's not a thing because there's a financial aspect to it. They have an obligation to play

international matches. But in terms of preparing for the World Cup, really, they'd be better off having a rest, wouldn't they? There were two things I took out of Friday night and you'd probably disagree. But I thought you talked earlier about players playing the way out of form. I think Phil Fowder may be one of those.

And the other thing a real positive on Friday night. I thought James Garner. And I know there's this, what Ashley spoke about, and I do get that, about having good characters in the group. But it looks like he's going to take Jordan Henderson.

I may be wrong, John. I think almost certainly. Who's the better player? Who would you rather have on footballing ability and what we've seen this season, Garner or Henderson? I know who I'd rather have. Yeah, but I suppose it's about putting a squad together, isn't it?

Which I think that's an important part of things with Dan Byrne. I think he wants the character that is Dan Byrne in the squad and he wants the character that is Jordan Henderson in the squad. Yeah, but at some point, and that goes back to your point, Ash, a little bit of what Steph said as well. I appreciate the character's side of stuff, but at some point you might need the player who's in the best form. I know it's about it.

And also how many of them do you take? Yeah. If you're already taking Jordan Henderson and Dan Byrne, then is there a need to take Aaron McGuire? You maybe would then argue that you're probably better off and take and Harry McGuire because realistically he could come on and have impact if you needed in the last

five, ten minutes if you want to just put him up front and do what he's done for United a few times or for England but I don't know I think for me I agree with you Chris I thought James Garner's been exceptional this season I thought he was really good on Friday I think just doing the simple things and also

he takes set pieces his delivery is really really good but also he has that little bit of bite in midfield like Anderson does and I think we've missed that especially with the likes of Calvin Phillips who isn't anywhere near England squad that's what he brought in the U-Rows in that hold and midfield row

and he could potentially do that. When you went to a tournament, Ash, did you ever think someone else was in the squad just because they were a good bloke? No, I said if I did, I wouldn't tell you it was anyway, Chapters. I would do that, as if I would do that to you, Ashley. So there was someone. Yeah, there was a couple.

No, I just think it's important, but like to go back to what Chris said, this is what Thomas Tuchel has to decide with the wealth of players, the quality players, these guys. Can you get a player? Like if you're taking Dan Byrne, it's Dan Byrne or Harry McGuire, but as he didn't mention, I don't think he mentioned Dan Byrne in those comments. So I'm just guessing it's Harry McGuire next. That's why he's saying, not Dan Byrne.

you also want someone that you think can affect the game. You're not just taking a sparring partner to just spar all the way through the tournament. You want people there that can also go and affect a game of football. But I just think it's, if you can get someone that's a good personality as well, the more people that are just going to get on with it, I think Harry McGuire seems like that tall person. He's not really going to moan if he's not playing. He just gets on with it.

Okay. We will leave John to his self-doubt ahead of tomorrow night. full commentary. Yes, full commentary, John. Yes. Yes, with the possibility of 11 substitutions. Full commentary, that huge game. Live from Wembley tomorrow night.

All the build-up from seven kickoff at, John? 745. 745. Thank you. Let's turn our attention to Bristol City in the championship who have announced that Roy Hodgson at 78 will take charge

until the end of the season after they sat Gerhardt, I think it was the fact that it was a short-term project, a short-term appointment after the club made their decision to change. I think they were looking for someone who could step in and was prepared to do a job for seven games. And, of course, that appealed to me because I have retired from the real milestone of working as a professional coach again. but I thought that I could manage five weeks and I might even look forward to the five weeks, which has been the case so far.

I can only thank the ball and Charlie for thinking of me and asking me to come in. Is there any potential for it to be longer term at all? No. No, I'm too old. When first Richard Scudamore got in touch with me to ask if it could even be a possibility and to put me in touch with Charlie,

who then pursued it. It was always on the basis that we'd like you to come in and work like we think you do work for this five-week period and at the end of it. I hope they would have found their new sporting director, found their new manager

and the club will go from strength to strength. That's my hope. And I hope to get some enjoyment from being here to re-energize myself a little bit by being back on the grass and being back with players, something which has always been what I've wanted to do because I must say that I didn't come into football to do

press conferences. I came into football to do work with players and I made it clear to them today that I hope we're going to enjoy our time working together. But I also made it fairly clear earlier on that unfortunately the only way we're going to get any enjoyment is if we've become better at what we're doing and win matches. So I think I've made that fairly clear as well. I'm not here just for allied I'm here because I hope

that I'll be able to do what Charlie and the board have brought me in to do. Bristol City's that was Roy Hoddon by the way speaking to the BBC's Alistair Durden and then Bristol City's statement

Ashley said Roy's appointment is about more than the results of the next seven games over the remainder of the season he will help us set the standards and values at the club

that we will need to be successful going forward he will support our players and our football staff as we build towards achieving our potential. How do you assess the statement alongside his appointment? What I think is that it sounds to me

like they wanted to get Roy Hodgson in to almost teach that whole... This is a football club that's been ready for the Premier League for years, never made it, a big city. and coming off Gerhardt, Strober and they obviously started the season not too bad looking to get in at least the playoffs

they can't do that now, they can't get relegated. It's almost like they've put Roy Hodgson in charge to almost teach the whole football club up and down, players and above him, the standard of what he expects, like a Premier League standard, a top level manager standard, and how to run the football club.

That's what it sounds like. to me, like he's going to bring back the standards or he's going to introduce standards at this football club that we need to go to the Premier League because they've obviously not done it at so many attempts. Chris Mark on the BBC Sport website put this message up there. It seems a pointless appointment.

Bristol City cannot go up or down. I have respect for him, but he will not be manager for the 2026-27 season at 78. Yeah. I mean, Roy was my man. manager at Blackburn. I think he's a brilliant coach. I learned so much from him. He probably didn't learn a lot from me. And I admire him. I admire him taking the job and I do. But this is really backward thinking from Bristol City. And I get what Stefan Asher saying about, you know,

maybe they know, you know, it's like a, you know, a school which is in a complete mess. And you get an Offsted inspector in to run the school and try and straighten out or whatever. They shouldn't be going down this route. Why not give somebody an audition? I mean, so the issue, I mean, they had a good manager in Struber as far as, as far as Nash would maybe know the club better than me. But by all accounts, they sold a couple of their best players in January where they were pushing and they're falling away. They're not going to go up. They're 12 points off the playoffs.

They're 12 points off Leicester City as well, who were the, who, who were the, who, who, who, were in the bottom three. So they're going to be safe. So while Roy is a good coach and, you know, he'll see the season off, the fact that he said he was too old in the press conference and wasn't going to carry on next season regardless, just, I mean, that's just backward thinking from Bristol City. You know, they should have given somebody maybe, you know,

this short period of games, a little interim period. And maybe, you know, get a bit of confidence in the team and the squad and have ideas on. next season and look forward to next season. But they aren't doing that. Roy'll just see out this season and then go back to his cribbage. I don't. Did he play cribbage at Blackpool?

I don't know. No? No, he didn't. No. It's a good game, cribbage. Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying it's cribbage. It's like a card game. It's a card game, Ashley. Have you never played it? Never. Tell you what.

I mean, this will be bringing in an even younger audience on the BBC Sports YouTube channel. at the moment, they'll be loving this. When you look at the interim managers that are in existence at the moment, O'Neill at Celtic, Carrick at United, Rower at Leicester, Michael O'Neill at Blackburn, obviously we had Eagle Tudor at Tottenham,

Lee Clarks at Rotherham, Neil Warnock's at Torquay. Is it all these clubs, and some of these clubs are in danger of being relegated, some are in a title race, some are in a promotion race. There's a real mix there. Is this judge?

Is this a trend at the moment for, I don't know, you could say stop gaps, couldn't you, just try and either get us up or keep us up and then we can reset? Is that what they're all doing? It seems like that. And I think, obviously, say for example, Michael Carrick and Manchester United, that it did seem that he was going to be there for a stopgap and just kind of have that stability for Manchester United so they knew who they were going to appoint in the summer. I don't think anybody expected how well he would do in the influence that he. had. So that's the risk that clubs take when you have an interim manager because you don't actually realize the effect that it could potentially have on the

players in the club, especially if it's a positive one, whereas spurs have gone through that negative kind of extremes of an interim manager. Now they're going to have to appoint another manager. So I think stopgap, whatever you want to kind of call it, is something that's going to just wait until another further decision's made down the line. I mean, that is it? It's also that impression of kicking the can down the line, isn't it? Yeah, but I think, I mean, my thoughts on it are a little bit like,

instead of backing someone and backing them through the rough times as well, you just, they just get rid of, everybody just gets rid of managers so quick these days, so quick to the turnover of managers is insane compared to what it used to be. So it's almost like now they've gone and stepped further and said, we're actually not going to appoint a permanent manager, we just want to try this one out for a little bit and see if you can get over the line, and then we can move on from him

if that doesn't work instead of saying, no, actually we'll put all our eggs in this basket and if it gets a little bit rough, we'll stick with him. Because of the pressure so much now, we, it's from us, from the fans, from everybody. If you're having a little bit of a rough period, three or four games,

you're out the door these days. And before you was given time to see that out. So I just think now they've gone a step further and said, in fact, we won't even appoint someone because we're not willing to back him and put our name to him. We'll actually just see how he does for a little. little bit. Steph, Ashley, Chris, thank you very much. Next episode of the Football Daily will be

the debrief with Kelly reflecting on England's Friendly with Japan. Welcome to the Wayne Rooney show. Wayne Rooney, Kay Curd and me, Kelly Summers, break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond. He's gone in quite quick, but he hasn't caught him high. I just don't think it's the red card. Plus, we'll hear the funniest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career. I was going into positions and doing things I shouldn't really been doing, but But you do it because you feel like you have to and that helped us drive on them with the FA Club. The Wayne Rooney show.

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