Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Chelsea’s mentality, booing fans & Salah benched

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

On MNC this week Mark Chapman, Andros Townsend, Chris Sutton and Rory Smith get into the one all draw between Chelsea and Arsenal and pose the question if discipline is an issue with Enzo Maresca’s side? And look into their mentality after playing with ten men. They hear from Tottenham fan Jack Hussey after Thomas Frank said the supporters who booed goalkeeper Guglielmo Vicario in the match against Fulham "can't be true Tottenham fans".Attention turns to Brighton as they ended the week fifth in the Premier League table – but fans are still divided over manager Fabian Hurzeler, as fan Alice Botting explains to the guys. And Mo Salah gets discussed after he was dropped from Liverpool’s starting line-up in the league for the first time since April 2024.Timecodes: 00:34 - Chelsea v Arsenal analysis. 13:00 – Tottenham section. 30:42 – Goalkeepers going down injured. 37:34 – Brighton and Fabian Hürzeler discussion. 45:50 – Liverpool and Mo Salah being on the bench.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This is the Monday Nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday Night Club. Chris Sutton and Ross Townsend and Rory Smith are with us. You can email MNC at BBC.co.com. We'll talk Chelsea and Arsenal. Spurs fans booing, maybe fans booing in general.

Should the rule be changed if a goalkeeper goes, down injured. We'll talk Brighton. We'll talk Liverpool and Mo Salo. There is so much to fit in tonight. Chelsea and Arsenal won all yesterday at Stanford Bridge. Chelsea down to 10 men towards the end of the first half after Kaiserido was sent off. Did you find the most refreshing thing about it andros is that Chelsea went for it even went down to 10 men in the sense of they didn't go defensive as they have gone, went down to 10 previously this season. Yeah, I think that was probably down to the way Arsenal set up.

When Chelsea went down to 10 men, initially they sat back as you would, but Arsenal didn't really throw any more men forward. They built up with a three. Declan Rice or Zubimendi dropped into that back two to make a three. So Chelsea had the superiority when Arsenal did progress into Chelsea's half. So then Chelsea, it allowed them, when they got the ball to get more men forward.

And most of their attacks were counterattacks through Netto in particular and Garnacho in the second half. But they did have a lot more territorial possession than I was expecting. And I think that was down to the way Arsenal set up and the way Arsenal didn't want to throw caution to the wind and maybe lose the point on the counterattack. I also thought with Chelsea Rory,

when he made his substitutions, he made them to all intents and purposes like for like. so Garnacho for Estefau, Delap for Zhao Pedro. They might have had slightly different instructions, but it wasn't like he took Zhao Pedro off and put on another centre half. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't pretend to understand kind of the mechanics of what's happening on the pitch

as much as Andros does, but it looked to me like there wasn't a vast change in Chelsea's approach. So they weren't any less kind of determined to go forwards when they had 10 men. To the extent that watching it, sort of a little bit distracted by my kids I had to keep reminding myself

that Chelsea had got reduced to 10 men and not Arsenal which isn't a criticism of Arsenal I think that game yesterday spoke volumes about Chelsea and where they are whereas for Arsenal it was I mean it sounds like Andrews maybe thinks they could have gone forward

a little bit more, committed a bit more but to me I think Artetta will look at that as a good point at a difficult ground but Chelsea I thought that it was a real sort of coming of age performance I think the problem you said draw is a coming of age, but I think the problem more for Chelsea is the silly red cards. I think it's the third or fourth red card they've had this season.

Fourth in the Premier League, I'm looking at silly. I'm looking at silly tackles. I'm looking at Kukarella in the first 10 minutes getting booked when Sack is in his own half facing his own goal gets booked on 10 minutes. And then on 30 minutes makes a similar silly tackle with Saka in his own half facing his own goal. So I think it's a coming of age and it was a good performance, but Moreska really does need to tackle that discipline.

issues if they are going to sustain a challenge for the Premier League. I'd agree with that. I think that what we've learned about sides when they play Arsenal this season is you have to have that aggression. Sunderland had it and maybe Chelsea learned from that. So you have to be prepared to have that physicality. But you have to stand the right side of the line. And Cuccarea was fortunate. Kassado went.

But I disagree with what Rory says about Mikhail Arta. I think publicly him coming out after the game and saying it's a good point. I think 11 v 11 going to Stanford Bridge and the way Chelsea performed. I actually think, you know, you'd say, well, yeah, that's okay. It's not a bad point. Chelsea are a good team. We respect them. But to go up against 10 men for an hour and And Andros spoke about Arsenal were slightly cautious.

I don't know whether this is fair, but we touched on it earlier this season when Arsenal played Liverpool and they lost at Liverpool. And I think we've touched on this before when they went to Manchester City and were slightly cautious. Is it one? And I certainly think as a former player and I don't know what Andros thinks where you're in the dressing room

at the end of the game thinking, do you know what? A point's okay, but really, could we, should we have been a bit braver and committed more bodies forward? From my experience when I have been 11 against 10, that's definitely the feeling. It's could we have, should we have?

But we know from the last two or three years, our Tetas mentality in this big games is make sure you don't lose it. Make sure the worst case you do is share the point. And we trust ourselves against the sides further down the table to do the business. And, yeah, possibly they could have gone for it. They could have committed Declan Rice or Zubimendi further forward a bit earlier. But then they would have left themselves two at the back, two inexperienced centre halves in the Premier League at the back on their own,

facing Neto and Garnacho and Delap when he came on. So maybe they fall with what they had on the pitch, it's better just to take the point, get players fit and regroup and go again next week. But they do have like an attritional side arsenal. So I wonder whether the way Artetta looks at it isn't necessarily we sit on the point. It's we will grind out the winner here rather than we're going to kind of over-commit and get ourselves into a position where maybe we need to grind out and equalise.

I think he trusts himself and his team. to find a way to get that winner without throwing the kitchen sink at it. And to be honest, yeah, I thought that I'd take Chris's point completely about the silly red cards. Chelsea have a bit of a disciplinary issue. I suppose if you have a lot of young players,

maybe that's a thing that happens. But I just thought the intensity that Chelsea played out, the organisation, there was a moment, 10 minutes before the end when Madueke tried to step inside, and Fernandez and Koucarea both smashed into him. And then they both, when he was on the ground,

completely legitimately, he'd just fallen over. they both sort of turned and roared at him on the ground and it felt like that sort of day for Chelsea where they had taken it very much as this is a test of our credentials and to be honest, despite, yeah, can I say they're putting in a stupid tackle I thought they passed it to be honest.

You know when, and obviously you mentioned it, Andros and now Rory has used the phrase Chelsea have a disciplinary problem. All the red cards are different though. It's not like everyone that they've had. They've gone out and clubbed. somebody or hit somebody. It's Sanchez's was a last man at Old Trafford.

Gusto was a silly second yellow card at the city ground. Cicado's tackled yesterday. Their other red card was against Brighton. I can't remember what that was for, maybe that was for a professional foul and being last man as well. But the point being, they're not going out and kicking everybody up in the air. Each one is different. So is it fair?

Rory to say disciplinary problem. No, but I think it's six red cards this season across all competitions. That's a lot in November. I mean, I don't want to, you know, kind of offend Chelsea. So that's a disciplinary problem then. You just said no, and they've had six red cards in November. So whether, I understand what Mark's saying about the type of reds,

but it's still, if it's a second yellow, then players who are on a yellow have to be that more cool. cautious and aware of that. So it is, whether we like it or not, about the nature of the red cards, it's too many. It suggests there's not a lot of cool heads prevailing, I think. That's maybe the connect,

that each one is different. I was at Old Trafford for the Sanchez one, and it was a moment of rashness. Yeah, I take your point, it wasn't like a violent, malicious foul, but it was a moment of rashness. So yeah, although each one is different, there's maybe a lack of composure at times that unites them.

I agree with Chris because we had a – my team had a similar thing this season. We had three red cards in five games. And after that, the last thing the manager says before you go out is, right, no silly tackles. Right before kickoff, the president comes down, reiterates no red cards today under any circumstances. And as a player, you go on the pitch and it, like, okay, I'm not going to go to ground. If there's a 50-50, I'm going to stay out of it. I want to stay on my feet. And that's your mentality as a player.

and I'm wondering in the Chelsea dresser room, is there a player, senior player, or manager who had reiterated those points just before they go out. No red cards today, that's because looking at Kukareo in particular, the first 20, 30 minutes, he didn't have that instruction in his head because silly tackles where on another day,

he could have been sent off of those two challenges on Saka. The other thing with Chelsea, before we come back to Arsenal, Chris, is that Rees James was sensational in that midfield. role yesterday. Yeah, well, I think he's always been a sensational player. He's just really struggled with injury, hasn't he?

That's his, you know, that's been his Achilles heel in recent seasons. But, you know, what he showed, which a lot of Chelsea players have and the best footballers have, is that versatility to be able to play different roles and play them well and have that understanding. And, you know, he has that in abundance. So I think, you know, we've seen him the way that he rotates with gusto and what have you. But it's, you know, it just shows what a classy player

he always has been, really. It's just about getting the minutes for him. Yeah, and along with that, it's hard not to feel sorry for East James how much of his career he's kind of lost to injury. But it is interesting that he seems to slot into midfield so seamlessly despite the fact that he has always been a specialist fullback. Andros might be able to contribute something helpful and Chris will shout me down.

I wonder whether there's maybe not that much difference in terms of the demands of those positions anymore. Maybe it is easier for a fullback to slot into midfield and kind of understand what that role demands. I think it's incredibly hard when you're a wide player who's used to, your back is the touchline. You only need to focus on what's going on in front of you. All of a sudden you're thrown into a midfield position

where you have to look what's behind you. You have to look in front. You have to look to left. You have to look to the right. It's incredibly tough. And we've seen Trent, for example, go inside and have good games and have bad games and look like a right-back playing in midfield, whereas on Sunday, Rees James looked like a world-class cent midfielder.

And that's the biggest compliment I've given me. Didn't look like a right-back going in there. I thought it was an incredible performance from Rees-James. Did you ever play as a 10 under us? I did. I started playing there a little bit with Luton. And obviously, as you get older, managers want to move you inside to start. stop all the running on the outside.

But honestly, even now, playing in the Thai League, it's so difficult to play in midfield because I'm not used to looking behind me. I'm used to getting the ball and looking in front, looking at the fullback driving. I'm not used to having to turn my shoulders like sent midfielder's do the whole game. And it takes what I while to adjust.

So, yeah, for myself personally, full credit for what Reese James is doing at the highest level in the midfield right now. As Andrews says, when you're on the outside, it is just easier because you have the touchline. That's what you have to, you know, and you only have to concentrate what's on the inside.

When you're playing in that central role. Yeah. You know, I think it's easier. I was going to say, I didn't think I heard Adros say the word easier. One final thing on Arthur, then we're going to move on to Spurs. Do you think, Chris, it feels like

if they don't win every week, they are open to some kind of criticism. And I'm thinking how they were at Anfield on the third weekend or whatever when they lost 1-0 and they were criticised for their approach. Or they let a lead slip at Sunderland, is that two points dropped? Or they only got a point at Stanford Bridge against 10 men. It feels like unless they win, they are open to criticism from the media, actually. Is that fair?

I think that it is a legitimate criticism that, you know, the performance at Anfield, the team which Michael Arteceta put out and they were more cautious and he has been like that in the past and that was a criticism because the title races have been tight before that may be the difference between winning a title and not quite getting there so I think it's fair enough the fact that you know from a former player's perspective you have that numerical advantage and you think blime me and in the end you know you'll find out the end of the season if they if they lose the league by a point. Maybe it'll be looking back to the game at Stanford Bridge where they just weren't quite brave enough. I do understand what Rory said. It's a good point on the face of

things. That rivalry between Chelsea and Arsenal is so intense. But having said all that, you know, the players, I think, would have felt, not it would have been, felt like a loss in the dressing room, but they wouldn't have been delighted after the game because they know that would have been a chance missed. We'll go on to Spurs after they were beaten at home by Fulham. Jack Hussey is a Spurs fan

from Rule the Roost podcast as well. Evening, Jack. Hi, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm all right, thank you. I mean, you don't sound full of the joys of the festive period. I'll be honest with you.

It's just a bit cold, chaff, as I said. We did a lot on Thomas Frank last week and trying to separate Thomas Frank trying to turn Spurs round versus a performance in the Derby that obviously felt very negative. So this is less about Thomas Frank the individual I suppose

but Spurs fans' relationship with managers and the club over recent years. Do you think it's fair to probably talk about that as the bigger picture? Yeah, definitely because the way you can break this down is that there's plenty that you can feel I think rightly justified in criticizing Thomas Frank for

his approach the I guess the tinkering but ultimately everything ending up in the same place more often than not ironically enough not against PSG who are probably one of the best teams you could play in Europe but for the most part it seems to be spurs exercising a similar game plan

little creativity little attacking impetus and thus, you know, it leads to questions as to whether or not he can handle this appointment, whether or not he has the right mentality to manage spurs with the expectations placed upon us. But this sort of bigger issue, this thing of fans booing him, booing the players on the pitch, this hasn't started with Thomas Frank this season. I don't even think this has started with Ange Postercoglu last season as much as people, you know, are in two pretty distinct camps on their feelings as towards, you know,

you know, him and his tenure at Spurs. This, I think you can, you can really trace this back to the Pocitino era. You can trace it back to the point where the new stadium was in development and Spurs had built and also, I think it's fair to say, half lucked into a team that would be capable of actually challenging, actually achieving something. And at that point, the, the people in charge of the club, the decision was made to not prioritize that sporting success, that on-field success, if you like, let's build the brand, let's build the infrastructure around Tottenham. But, you know, one begets the other,

doesn't it? You know, right now we're kind of, I think you would say we're, we're in a place where what we're seeing now is the result of years of squad mismanager. I'm not going to sit here and say the squad's terrible. I'm not going to say all of these players are abysmal. But Equally, I don't think it's, I don't think it's fair to say of Angepostercoglu or Thomas Frank, they should be getting more out of these. I mean, Antchpostoglu won a Europa League for Spurs. I mean, I shouldn't forget that. But I just think it's a squad that's been built through a number of opportunistic signings through a completely, should we say, jagged vision from managerial appointment to managerial appointment. You know, we've gone from Ange Posicoglu, who's this attack-at-all-cost manager to Thomas Frank,

who is a defender-all-cost manager. The coherency between those doesn't suggest that there is a, or a lack of coherency, I should say. That's so ironic, isn't it? There isn't a lot of strategy between those appointments, and that leads to, again, the people are in the club. Just a problem from me, because I've seen a couple of bits online now, and you said yourself about not being attacking enough and what have you.

But we, Spurs, had an attacking manager in Ange Posto Coglu last few seasons. He won the, he won a European competition. He was hounded out. He was, he left. He'd gone for a more pragmatic approach, someone with Premier League experience. And now you're saying you want attacking football again. So what is it that Spurs actually want? I mean, I can't speak for everybody.

But right now I would like to see at least some kind of plan at Spurs. I think, look, at the start of the season under Thomas Frank, had perhaps a few murmurs of discontent that, oh, we're only winning one-nil, and the manner of these performances is quite boring. But I dare say things wouldn't be as toxic now if Spurs were still grinding out wins in a fairly, should we say, pragmatic fashion? I think the problem right now, at least with Thomas Frank, is it feels as though people just aren't, they don't feel inspired by it.

They don't feel as though there's actually something there that we can hang our hat on. I don't look at Spurs game to game and think there's anything really there that I see that I think five months down the line. It's rough now, but three, four months down the line, maybe next season, this will be better. I don't know. His manner in press conferences and things, it feels a little like he's overwhelmed by this. But again, I know maybe that's a certain sense of confirmation bias, projecting what we want to see. But I wonder, what is the environment that all. all of these people are working in.

That would be where I would go next, Jack, to a certain extent, which is, you know, you talk about Pocitino, and therefore we could probably say that was the last time that you were all universally happy as a fan base. And then, yeah, would you say? Probably a few months under Antonio Conte, but that didn't last very long. No, so then, since then, Conte, Marigno, Nuno, Postercoglu, Thomas Frank.

They've all had, some more than others, their prickly moments in what is evidently a prickly environment. Would that be fair? Yeah, I think that's fair. To some extent, I guess. I mean, if the prickly environment is, I don't know, a sense that it's the fans that don't have patience. No, sorry, Jack, I wasn't necessarily just talking about,

I was talking about the whole thing. The whole thing, not, not, I'm not saying the fans are creating prickly atmospheres. You know, they've all had sort of moments of unhappiness. And trying to drill down into exactly what is going on is probably quite hard. Yeah, and I think that's, that's a sentiment that is shared amongst a lot of fans, you know, just on my podcast. So I was trying to make sense of it after,

after the Fulham game, you have to sit here and wonder, how are we here, late November, early December already? Fans and players in some kind of standoff with one another, things coming out in the press that the players are, you know, having these sort of defiant stances on the centre circle to show the fans that they're not going to let their negativity get to them. And you've got Thomas Frank being asked in press conferences already, you know, how he feels like,

why is he saying some fans aren't real fans? And I think when you take a step back from all of that, when you take a step back from who said what and how was this affected players from, you know, that type of thing, it's just sad. It's sad that spurs are in this place. Again, it's sad that, you know, that this meant like a managerial appointment, whether you love Thomas Frank or not,

whether you like his approach or not, it couldn't just kind of tick along and be all right. Spurs have a bit of stability. We can, you know, be all right for a bit, even if we're not going to be challenging anyone at the top of the time. table. But it seems as though right now we're almost incapable of that. And that's kind of the sort of the, I guess, the fairly muddled point I was trying to make earlier that I think a lot of this does speak to a lack of clear vision from the people at the top of the club for quite

some time. And, you know, I think a number of people, like a lot of Spurs fans now are keeping their powder dry on this sort of new rebranded ownership. It's essentially the same owners, right? but they've kind of segueed from being called E-NIC to the Lewis family now. And they sort of say they've got these big aspirations of making Tottenham a team that can compete on all fronts and that includes on the pitch. But I guess that remains to be seen. And I don't think it's just about, this isn't just like go out and sign as big players every single transfer.

It's spent hundreds of millions of pounds every single transfer window. That would be nice and everybody likes a, shiny new transfer right to get to get excited about but i think what what spurs fans want to see more is that there's actually tangible steps being made to plug some of these gaps that we're sort of talking about this lack of coherency there needs to be a a bigger vision that people are bought into and anyone anyone who listens to my pod is sick of me going on about arsenal all the time stop talking about arson stop talking about how well they've done it down the past few years but you know loavers i am to say it you you have you

have to look at Arsenal. You have to see the example that they've set in some regards. It was a fairly chaotic environment that Mikhail Artetta inherited. And it seemed to be that he was going to be a continuation of that. But once he sold a vision or a vision was sold to him or there was at least a coherence in visions, you know, maybe that just happened. The club and him have moved in the same direction and everybody can see that. All facets of the club are aligned.

But they stuck with him. But they stuck with Mikhail Artetta. How many trophies is Michael Artetta won as manager of Arsenal? And is that not the issue at Tottenham? It is stuck with Pochitino. But then since Pochitino, every other manager has been relatively short term. There hasn't been that long-term vision. Arsenal are bearing the fruits.

As you quite rightly say, we now see where they are. Was it five years Arteta's been in charge now? where he has had that plan, that opportunity to build. And Arsenal won the FA Cup in his early part of his, when he was manager. But is that the lesson that Tottenham should learn? But yet Thomas Frank has been in a few months. And it seems to me, I'm not part of that particular club, but it seems to me, unfortunately for Thomas Frank,

that a lot of fans have already made the mind up about him. And I think that that's deeply unfair. I think I think I do think it's a good point Chris but I do think a lot of that comes down to stylistic concerns I think you know clubs have got their their identities right and one of the things that spurs fans will always talk about is that the game should be played a certain way and Thomas Frank seems to be the antithesis of that it can be argued that football as a sport in general moves in certain directions and if you look at you know talking about arsenal again if you look at the brand of football that they employ,

you might say that's not really in line with the sort of principles that they adopted under Ars and Wengo. I was going to say, I'm funny, I think the Arsenal thing's really, really important. I think it's probably natural that Spurs fans would like see their flaws much more clearly at the time when Arsenal have five points clear at the top of the lead. That is going to put a fan base in a bad mood. I think that's natural. But what you said about stability, I think is really interesting,

and it strikes me that that might be the sort of issue that undercuts everything. If Spurs were sixth, not really in contenting with the Champions League, people would still be calling for Thomas France head, whether that's Spurs fans or the media in general, because Spurs are kind of cursed that that's not enough for Tottenham. There is this sense that Spurs should be up there pushing, but then there's a financial reality that there are five teams who have more money than them, so the chances are they're going to finish above Tottenham.

Is that the issue that Spurs are caught almost in this no-man's land? They're kind of a club that's made it to the elite. they are part of the elite, one of the Super League six. But they are, by definition, and this is relative, the poorest of those six teams. And that's a difficult position to be in. Well, I think you just have to look at something like the Europa League final last year. Because as you say, Rory, every single year,

spurs have to win something. They have to win something to truly announce themselves. But then when we got to a final against Manchester United, and invariably, you're always going to play a team like Manchester United in a final. much of the commentary was well spurs aren't going to beat a team like Manchester United in a final you know so we are caught between that rock and a hard place where

there is a certain expectation placed upon the club but equally you know there's also that sense of don't get ideas above your station you know you're still spurs know you place in the pecking order I remember a game we won we beat hold 1-0 in the last 10 minutes similar situation

Andre Velas at the time criticized the fans for not staying behind the team and after it the players were just so frustrated that we weren't backed for the whole 90 minutes. We weren't given 90 minutes to try and break down a resolute whole side. We were after 45, 60 minutes, the groans were coming, the moans were coming, the booze were coming. And we were frustrated that we weren't given the whole game

to try and beat this whole side, which we ended up doing. So, yeah, when frustrations are high after the games, those conversations do happen within the dressing room. You are, not you personally, Andros, but you do end up on thin ice if you start to suggest, that your fans aren't true fans though. Yeah, and AVB, I'd go back to Andrevillas-Bos, a few weeks after that whole performance,

he criticised the fans, after a few weeks he was sacked. At Tanya Conte criticised the fans, he was sacked. Mosta Coglu, he was sacked. So, yeah, if I was a manager now at Spurs or anyone, I would not be looking to, I don't know if his quotes were taken out of context, but you're on thin ice once you start going against the fan base. He was stating a fact.

And I understand what he says. I agree with what you and Andros are saying about, you know, probably not the smartest move. But is it the smartest move as well from the Tottenham fans who were booing Vicario? What does that actually achieve? Now the identity has changed because of some of the managers which have been appointed in recent times. Spurs don't actually know what they quite are. There's been the chopping and changing. But, you know, the biggest thing with all this, it can't help.

when Spurs fans are booing their own players. I think that that was the point Thomas Frank was making. And I think it's fair enough. If you are a true fan, why would you do that? All the fans must understand the predicament that Spurs are in at this moment in time. The phrase true fan is wrong. You can be a true fan.

I think everyone boos everyone far too much everywhere now. Like fans quite often seem to go to stadiums with the booze like locked and loaded in their pockets and I don't get it, I don't, that's not, it should be reserved for. You can't assume that. It happens a lot more than it used to in the 80s and 90s, Chris, and I think it's just football costs so much money that fans understandably.

You feel as though they, they, I've spent 60, 70, 80, 90 quid on a ticket for this. Why are you rubbish? And I get that completely. And I realize, you know, I'm lucky enough to go to most football matches that I go to without paying and that, so I realize there's a position of privilege there. but do pay to go to football You go to most games without paying For work

The majority of games I go to I don't have to pay Which actually is it I'm not bunking in So I realise this position of privilege But I do think everyone is a little bit too ready to boo Jack I will let you go There was one start there

Didn't get into this conversation But you can have it for your pod Which is Spurs have made four through balls This season Alasel have made 43 So I don't know if you want that for love it wonderful

that just tops off my cheer for Monday Chappas thank you I'm just know I'm

I'll leave with an even bigger spring in my staff thank you Jack see you soon so

bye bye bye there's satisfied guests on the Monday night club my name

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I'll use my charm, gift it gab. Games gone. The Steve Bracknell podcast. Watch on YouTube. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday Night Club with Mark. Chapman on the Football Daily Podcast

What would you do, Chris? Moving on to the next thing about goalkeepers going down, injured in inverted commas and the perception that it could be for a tactical rejig from a manager. And this was from the game

you were at at the weekend. I totally missed it. Surprise, surprise. How can Daniel Fark assume that? I don't quite understand that. Is your first thought, though, Chris, and this isn't with Dona Ruma in particular,

but isn't your first thought now when a goalkeeper goes down, I'm not sure that that's genuine, is this so the head coach can do a little bit of a tactical rejig? Is that not your first thought? Do you know what? That will be from now on. Okay. It wasn't on Saturday with the game.

I just, I didn't understand it, because I couldn't understand how he could have got injured. But it's still, I mean, I mean, you know, players get some, you know, strange injuries at time if they're carrying an injury into the game. And, you know, he sat down. I was surprised, but I didn't, I don't know, but you can't really start accusing people of feigning injury.

What was the proof from Daniel Farker, even if he's correct? I think it's quite difficult to prove, really. I've been told on more than one occasion. I had a Spanish manager recently, and one of the first things he said when he arrived at the club before his first game was, if I need to get some tactical, tactical information to the team. I will speak in Spanish to one of my players

and ask them to go down so I can bring everyone together to get some tactical information on. So I'm not saying Dona Ruma is guilty in this situation, but 100%. These are the messages that are going to players these days. He looks the most immobile, doesn't he?

That's the thing. He looks like he could get injured a lot. He doesn't look flexible, Dona Ruma. So in that respect, you sort of... But it's the only position where you can go down and not have to spend 30 seconds on the sideline.

Yeah. And I have been told, Rory, and that's not this season, but a couple of seasons ago, of a club that would definitely do that if they needed to get some tactical instructions on. That goalkeeper would go down injured.

This is facts. Yeah, it happens quite a lot. I mean, I don't know if it's such a played on the game that we have to do something about it. It is a thing that happens. And even Daniel Faris. said he doesn't necessarily like it. He stopped short of saying,

I think this is unsportsmanlike, but he just sort of said it's smart. And I'm sure that if he needed to get some tactical instructions to Leeds players, you might find Lutris Perry doing the same thing at some point. I don't think it's certainly not just Gigi Donna Rummer. It's definitely not just city. He said, if we don't educate our players in football,

what to do in terms of fair play and sportsmanship and whatever, and if we just try to bend the rules and even do a fake injury in order to do an additional, team talk, it's not what I like personally, but if it's within the rules I can't complain. Yeah, and he is right, like I don't know, maybe we should

go to Chris on this, Chappas. Are we being nostalgic to think that in the olden times, Chris, there were a little bit more, I don't know, like fellow feeling, an idea that you should only do things if they were sportsmen, like I don't feel like we talk about that concept

very much anymore. Does it is, it's within the rules, but It's clearly not in the spirit of the rules. Well, it's not within the rules, is it, for a player to go down for, you know, for there to be a, you know, a manager then to, you know, talk tactics with his players. That's not within the rules. That's, that's, that is not against the rules, though, is it? It's not against the rules. Yeah, but, yeah, but, you know, it is against the spirit of the game.

And, yeah, back in the dad, I think we would have, we would have done unsavory stuff like that. There was a sort of a greater respect. I don't know. It's not, it's not really. on is it. The manager can talk to his players before the game all week half time. To do that is a bit pathetic.

They are talking and Dale Johnson on the BBC Sport website has put this Andros. There are reports that they might look to if a goalkeeper goes down injured that an outfield player has to go off for 30 seconds

if the goalkeeper goes down and injured. Now are you wincing because in the main you'd be on the touchline and more likely as the wide person just be brought, just be brought off for that 30 seconds, or do you think it's actually going to be quite difficult to enforce? It's going to be quite difficult to enforce because who goes out, like who decides who goes out. Like, it's just too many, too many things to figure out, too many variables to enforce something like that. So, yeah, I don't see how you would.

But you also have to, that involves, and I think Chris Anandos picked up on this straight away. have to basically accuse the goalkeeper of lying. That's what it amounts to. It's the referee saying, well, I think you're faking. So we're going to take an outfield player off. I'm not quite sure. And also, if the goalkeeper is still lying down on the floor, what are you going to do? It just doesn't, I'm not sure.

It's one of those little loopholes. As Chris, yeah, as Chris says, it's not against the rules. But it's, well, Andrews says, it's not against the rules. It's not within the spirit of the rules. But I'm not sure how you close the loophole, other than if you say if a goalkeeper goes down, they have to be substituted. You can't, unless you're consistent.

with a particular position, you can't just say what they'll take a player off. That's absolutely not. Or you have to say it's a, you know, you're going to take off to send a forward. What about the goalie goes down

and then plays on? So it is therefore not, very clearly not injured. It's a corner. For me, that makes more sense, Rory. Or you say if the goalie goes down,

the manager can't be in the technical area so he can't get messages to a team. I think that makes more sense than if a player, if a goalkeeper gets cramped, you have to take him off. I don't think that's... Although, as we've said before, Andros,

a goalkeeper really shouldn't be getting cramped, should they? I mean, just to wind up, Rob Green and Joe Hart and everybody else. I mean, it would be quite fun. If the goalkeeper goes down injured, they'd just get treated like an outfield player and have to go off for 30 seconds. I mean, it would be fun and games, wouldn't it? That would make the game better, yeah.

Well, no, because what you would see then is they would all stop doing it straight away. straight away there would be if you were adult keeper and you had to be treated off the field that's ridiculous that is really stupid that's a really stupid thing to say so then if a goalkeeper then

was challenged and his leg was hanging off he would have to carry on he would have to carry yeah but how do you how do you prove that he would have to carry on playing thinking blind me

or you know if if I go off here even though you know my leg is hanging off then they could obviously be substituted nobody's ever going to go off. I'm going to ask you about Brighton

next. Last season they lost 7-0 to Nottingham Forest. That was 10 months ago. Yesterday they won 2-0 there. They went fifth in the table when they did it. Do you think they get the credit they deserve for what they do on the field? What they do on the field? Yeah, well, whenever anybody talks about Brighton,

they're very good off the field. They're very well run. They buy very well. They're great in the transfer market. Nobody ever really talks about what they actually do on the field. Yeah. No, I don't think they do. I think to go away from home at Forest under Sean Daesh is a very difficult place to go and get a result and to play the way they did,

to win two nil to go fifth, I think they are, fourth or fifth? Even though the Premier League table is quite tight. I don't think they do get enough credit the money they spend to what they're producing on the pitch. I don't think they do get enough credit from us and those outside fans as well. So yeah, no credit to Brighton.

There's a good table doing the rounds at the moment. He's been in charge for 51 games, as Fabian Hertzler. And of all the teams, the permanent teams in the Premier League, over those 51 games, Brighton are seventh overall. Liverpool, Arsenal, City, Chelsea,

Villa and Newcastle, the only clubs that are ahead of them. So that's good, isn't it? Alice Botting, Brighton fan, who joins us? He's been a raging success, hasn't he? I think he has. And I think we can't, I know that the fan base is so divided about how he's doing

and how we're doing as a club. But I personally have got no complaints. I think he's done really well. I think the only issues we've kind of had, especially last season, was with the 7-0 at Forrest and a couple of other results. It didn't quite seem like he had the passion afterwards. It didn't seem like he was involved with fans.

But I've got to say there can't be any complaints where we are this season. And I think we've really gone onto the radar in being fifth. I think, as you were just saying, no one really talks about us on the pitch that much this season. There are lots of other clubs who have had a lot more attention than Brighton and who are going the other way at the moment. Did you say the fan base are divided? Yeah, quite divided.

I think the division has lessened. Over a manager that's got you fifth? Yeah, yeah, there is still a divide. That divide has, there's not as much the divide as there was kind of a couple weeks ago. But I think this season the table is so. tight that all it takes is one win and you can literally, well, we've all seen how tight it is and how much you can jump up and down. Small change in form and you can go from kind of top six down to the bottom half. So I do think that just that one win and also being against

Forrest and being how we were last season, it has dramatically changed people's opinions. Those who object or those who maybe wouldn't see the positive side of Fabian Herzl, what would their kind of objections be? I think for a lot of people, the passion that Roberta Deservi showed, we don't quite have with Fabrii. And I think so many people related to Roberto and they thought of him as being like one of us, one of the fans, because you could see that passion on the touchline when we won. He was really going for it. And we just don't seem to have that with Fabian. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But I think for people who enjoyed that from Roberto, we don't have that same kind of feeling that we're all together. Is that fair, though, really? Is it not more to do with what his ability as a coach actually is? Because, you know, it's a. It's a. essentially him getting the best out of the group of players which he has and some managers are you know extroverts other managers are introverts so is that is that real it doesn't seem fair to me that he's judged on the fact that he isn't a chest beater when he was at st pauli people

saw him and they saw him in with the fans celebrating when they got promoted so i don't know people's perception of him was different when he joined and they were expecting something different I just think some people get this opinion in the mind about how somebody should be and when they're not like that, they've then got to build themselves up. And I think maybe he had a lot to live up to as well from the ex-managers that we had from Potter, from Roberto.

You know, he really had to kind of play a part. And I just think we've gone under the radar so much that it's made it quite difficult. Like you mentioned, there is five points between 5th and 15th, I think. You sound like Brighton fans don't think it's sustainable, or it's a fair reflection of where Brighton should be this season in fifth? I think fifth kind of came as a bit of a shock to a lot of us yesterday. I think because other results went our way, so we did get up to Fis.

But I think a lot of us kind of that, that eight, that challenging Europe, that's where we want to be. I think fifth came as a bit of a shock. But it's just, it is so tight that you're still looking over your shoulder the whole time. But that might be a bit of the mentality of, for so many seasons when we got promoted, we were all counting how many points we needed for safety. So there is also that looking back all the time. It's quite tough, really. Do you think, I've got asked Rory this,

in that obviously before Thomas Frank got the Spurs job, Thomas Frank was linked with jobs. The manager at the moment, or there are a couple of managers, I suppose, at the moment, who are linked with jobs of the so-called top six or whatever if they would become available in Oliver Glasner and Andoni Iraola. I never see Herzler linked with anywhere

unless I've completely missed it. Do you think one of the reasons that Herzlert isn't getting credit or isn't being linked is that the floor of the club was higher when he took them over than say, Glasner at Palace or Iraola at Bormann? Yeah, I think that's probably part of it. I guess his age might be as well that there would be still a suspicion. It's unlikely, you can't really think of,

you can't really see Man United appointing a 32-year-old no matter how well he has done. I think what Alice touches on is true as well. I think we've kind of normalised Brighton being good. Like, there's not really a surprise. I tell you what you mean about fifth coming as a surprise to the fans. They don't look with fifth. But I don't think anyone is shocked anymore to see Brighton in the top eight.

That kind of feels, with the table chappas since Hertzler took over, the fact they're seventh just kind of makes sense to me because that's Brighton. It's really impressive, but they've been so impressive for so long that after a while, the kind of the magic of that wears off from the outside. But I think the crucial thing for Hurtzler is that all the credit goes to recruitment. As you say, when we talk about Brighton, what we say is, aren't they well run?

Isn't Tony Bloom clever? Aren't Jamestown amazing? We never actually say they've got a really good manager. And that kind of perception is that the manager is just a cog in the machine, which is how Brighton design it, is why it works, it's why they've been able to sustain this success. But to an extent, maybe Graham Potter's not the best sort of,

shoes to fill in that from that point of view either. But to an extent, I think now people look at Brighton and think that works because of the behind-the-scenes structure, not necessarily the person who's in the managerial hot seat. A final one, I suppose, is that I'm interested Alice in what

the expectations are for him next. Because you look at, say you look at the six clubs above Brighton after those 51 games in Newcastle and Villa and Chelsea and City and Arsenal, or, you know, is he going to be able to overhaul any of those six?

What are your expectations for him? I think really it has to be trying to win a cup. I know that we've only got the FA Cup now that we are in or getting a Europa League spot this season. I think it has to be one of those this season. I know the long-term plans for the club are quite different and they want to be in Europe so many times in the next 10 years. So it's kind of like a long-term plan.

But I just think that this season we really need to be getting that European dream again to actually see that there is progression and that we are still able to compete with the best. And I think Newcastle are actually a really good example. I know they've put in a bit more money, but we came up at the same time. We've done a lot of similar things at the same time. So to see them able to get into Europe more than one season in a row.

I think that's kind of who we really want to be competing with. Alice, thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. seeing Brighton fan with us on the Monday nightclub MNC at BBC.co.uk. Let's talk Liverpool, who got back to winning ways yesterday as they'd be West Ham 2-0.

They did it without Mo Salah, who was benched and not in the starting line-up for the first time since April 2024. How do you judge Chris Sala being put on the bench?

Not a problem at all. I think that Liverpool have been on such bad run and I think that he's been an incredible player for Liverpool over the years but he's just another player and he should be treated no differently and if he's out in the form which he has been this

season is not hit anywhere near the level which he has done in recent seasons then he should be dropped and have to earn the right to work his way back into the team and they have other players who can play in forward areas I do not see it being an issue

and I don't think Mo Salah would see it as being an issue. I don't think that he would think that he's any different and more special than anybody else. I think he would understand that that's part and parcel of the game. I agree with all of your point,

but I think Sala would have taken that person the best players in the world they want to be playing every minute of every game. They feel like they have bigger than being dropped. Sorry? So do the worst players in the world.

They want to be playing every minute, but it's... Yeah. Yeah, well, they have an ego the best players and they don't like not being deemed as being good enough to play in that game, for example. So I think he would have taken it personally. He wouldn't have been happy.

But then is there not a point at which, like it feels the run of form Liverpool have been in and the run of form that Sal has been in? And I don't know most Salah at all. But surely there's a point where you think, actually, do you know what I haven't been? He must be aware that he's not been playing well. I take your point completely about ego.

But it would be very hard for most honestly going and see on the slot this morning and say, look, just didn't understand at all where that came from. As a player and as a player's mindset, he wouldn't be thinking he's the problem. No player thinks they're the problem. He'd be saying, this is how many goals I scored last season.

Maybe it's X, Y, Z, who you brought in, who haven't delivered, who are not giving me the ball, who are not giving me the service, who are not making runs for me, as opposed to it being my performance. So, again, from a player's perspective, I disagree. I think Sala would be knocking on that door, why I'm not playing.

I'm the main man. I'm the best player on the team. I scored this amount of goals last season. I should be playing, and one of the other players should be on the bench. I don't see it at all like that. And I certainly think Alana Slot would do is maybe bring out some footage of him this season and some of his horrendous misses and then say, well, that's why. You're not in the team, and we're going down a different route.

You haven't done enough. Anneslot would have thought long and hard about it. I mean, you know, absolutely no doubt about that. And I understand what you're saying about Salah and his ego, and he wouldn't have liked it. But Anaslot would have thought about that situation. But it gets to such a point when the manager, I think, feels that he's under severe pressure,

and he has to make a decision in the best, interests of the team. He needs to win a game of football. And if he thinks that leaving Mo Salah out is the correct thing to do because he needs a greater return in forward areas, he needs to win a game. That's the bottom line.

And he did do. What happens next is going to be fascinating because, as the old adage, you know, you can't change a winning team. I actually think it's not so much the Chris is completely right about Salas' form in front of goal. But I think what Slot did was basically

shift Sobers lie to the right for the work rate to protect Joe Gomez a little bit as well as playing Gomez, who is a much more natural defender than any of the people who have played it right back for Liverpool this season. That makes me think that what Slot did was go for a much more kind of, not cautious, but a much more solid sort of system, much more industrious, much more hardworking, to try and at least grind something out of that game because it's not impossible to think if Liverpool had lost that, that might have been Slot's last job as Liverpool. I'm not saying I think that would have happened, but it's possible.

So the question is now, what do you do? Because if you, there's a question mark over whether Joe Gomez can play, I mean, certainly three times in a week, having barely played for a year, but even twice a week, do you then, against Sunderland on Wednesday night, do you then bring Sala back at the risk of that work rate down the right flank dropping? Because that has been one of many problems for Liverpool this season. But then that, that point was what Jamie Carriger was saying last night, which is, yes, they won yesterday

and he thought it was Florian Vertes' best game, best Premier League game in the Liverpool shirt. And Isak scored as well. But what it then did was highlight an imbalance, really, Chris, in that Liverpool squad. Because by playing Vert in that sort of channel, which he did, it was like an inside left channel, I suppose, in a midfield three,

Sir Bosley got pushed out to the right so Sir Bosley in Jamie Carragher's words that's Liverpool's best player this season being pushed out to the right not his best position and Isak being played through the middle although he scored

means that Liverpool's best signing of the summer the one to have settled in the most Eckertique isn't playing either so it highlights this imbalance within the Liverpool squad of you're not getting everybody in their preferential position, really, because of how this is all being put together.

And the biggest thing is their recent form and the pressure which Arna Slot will, would have felt under himself because nobody could have envisaged Liverpool to spend what they have spent on, on talented forward players, them to come in, and all of a sudden there to be an imbalance in the team

for them to be shipping goals for them not to click in forward areas and it's just I think Arnold Slott has got desperate and it's just about winning however they win

and they did do and it is a case of of what happens next but Mo Salah just you know he has to do what every other player or every other normal player has to do get his head down

and work hard and earn his way back into the tea thank you Chris thank you Andrews thank you Rory This winter cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited

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