Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Cherries on top & Rashford’s Sacrifice

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

What’s going so well for Andoni Iraola’s Bournemouth? Does Marcus Rashford need to make a sacrifice? What is the answer to Tottenham’s problems – will they stick with Ange Postecoglou? And after Chelsea broke the women’s world-record transfer fee on defender Naomi Girma, what does that mean for the rest of the WSL? Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and former England captain Steph Houghton to reflect on the weekend’s biggest football stories.TIME CODES:01:05 – Bournemouth 18:40 – Tottenham 34:25 – Marcus Rashford 46:10 – Naomi Girma to ChelseaBBC Sounds / 5 Live European commentaries this week: Wednesday 29th January CHAMPIONS LEAGUE: Manchester City v Club Brugge 2000 KO – 5 Live CHAMPIONS LEAGUE: Aston Villa v Celtic 2000 KO – Sports Extra Thursday 30th January EUROPA LEAGUE: FCSB v Manchester United 2000 KO – 5 LiveSaturday 1st February PREMIER LEAGUE: Bournemouth v Liverpool 1500 KO – 5 Live PREMIER LEAGUE: Wolves v Aston Villa 1730 KO – Starts on Sports Extra and moves to 5 Live for Second HalfSunday 2ND February WOMEN'S SUPER LEAGUE: Manchester City v Arsenal 1200 KO – Sports Extra PREMIER LEAGUE: Manchester United v Crystal Palace 1400 KO – 5 Live PREMIER LEAGUE: Brentford v Spurs 1400 KO – Sports Extra PREMIER LEAGUE: Arsenal v Man City 1630 KO – 5 Live WOMEN'S SUPER LEAGUE: Tottenham v Manchester United 1845 KO – Sports Extra

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Welcome to the Monday Night Club. Former England captain Steph Horton and Rory Smith and Chris Sutton are with us. Thank you very much to Bob who sent us an email. Lives in Derby but a a Forest fan, he says. He also says, and this is very kind, you people on Five Live keep going more than you can imagine,

which is a lovely thing to say. And then most importantly, after Saturday's result, is Chris still a fan? Well, many more results like that, Mark, and I may head somewhere else. So, you know, Spirit of Santa needs to put his finger out. Right. Doesn't really help your cause of being a dedicated fan

no matter what, does it really, that? I've never claimed to be a dedicated fan for anybody. No, that's true. I'm just a bandwagoner, if you like such a word. You are very much a bandwagoner. We've spoken about Nottingham Forest a few times. We are going to start tonight by talking about Bournemouth. Would you be able, Steph, is there one thing about them that you would go,

that's why I like watching them? Not just one thing, there's a few things. But first and foremost, the physicality of the team. I think that's what's impressed me most. I think especially in that Newcastle game at St James' Park. I think pressing from the front and being aggressive and being on the front foot, and they've got that profile of play that allows them to do that.

But Saturday, the Blue was away. I don't think none of us really expected them to go against Forest, who were on such good form and got that high-profile player. And to be able to go and win 5-0 was super impressive from them. When you say blew us away, do you mean us, the football media? You haven't joined the Nottingham Forest bandwagoners as well.

No, I'm not a bandwagoner. Is that what Chris said? Bandwagoner? No. The bandwagoner himself. I think football media, yes. Rory, could you pick one thing? Like Steph, I'd struggle.

I think the thing that really stands out to me is, I think it's probably Araola's work with individual players, that they've got quite a few there who were either projects in terms of young players with a lot of talent who needed nurturing, people like Semenyo and Kyrkes. They are players who've been around for a while and never really fulfilled their obvious talent, such as noted Yorkshireman Lewis Cook. But the big one, I think, is Justin Kluivert, because he has, obviously, that name is quite heavy.

But Kluivert's been around the block. He's been to quite a few teams and never really settled. And I think there is an element of, I think he's a little bit of a maverick. I think he's a difficult player to fit bit of a maverick. I think he's a difficult player to fit into a really kind of tightly defined system. And Iriola spoke to Miguel Delaney of the Independent last week about how he wants his players in the final third. If the obvious passage isn't on, if the pattern has broken down, if they can't see the choice, just go and attack

the defender, go and make something happen. And there's not enough of that, I think, in a lot of teams these days. And the fact that Irola's encouraging his players to do it and it's enabling someone like Kluivert to fulfil their potential, I think is really refreshing. That point is very true, isn't it, Chris? In that they are one of the few teams who feel like they have players who actually fly at the opposition

and take the opposition on rather than going to a certain level and then coming back and cutting inside and passing it. They do feel like they go at the opponent. They're great in transition. They create an abundance of chances. When you think that they don't have a recognised centre forward and players are playing in makeshift

positions. You look at Lewis Cook, the right-back, central midfielder, Uwata are up front. They are a joy to watch and I think the last two results we've all sat up and really noticed them. That's probably doing Bournemouth an injustice because I looked at their record today. They're unbeaten

in 12. They've beaten Arsenal already this season, Manchester City. But you know what? They remind me a little bit of the Norwich City team I played in in the early 90s. And I'll tell you why. I think we shouldn't sneak it.

I think that's probably not a terrible parallel. But I will tell you why. Because we had a good team. Bournemouth are a good team. They are a superbly coached. But they are fearless. And we were pretty fearless because there isn't the weight of the world on their shoulders.

What's the expectation at Bournemouth with respect? The fans may have high expectations. But you look down the Premier League and you look at all the teams in the Premier League and you look at your Manchester United, your Tottenham's, even your Leicester's, you know, sides where the fan base, they're expecting far more from the teams. I do think that because of the confidence they have, they just rock up every week. It doesn't matter who they play, whether it's Arsenal, Manchester City, and they back themselves. And if they lose, nobody's really going to bat an eyelid. But now they are absolutely full of confidence. They are flying. And you look at the top four and they are, I never thought I'd say this, they're in with a chance of that. The fact that

they've taken Newcastle's scalp, the fact that they've taken Nottingham Forest's scalp, and the fact, remember that shot at the weekend, all the players had injured in that little box, and you're thinking, blimey, just imagine when they get a few of the first-teamers back as well. So a great, great story. Are they also like Norwich back then because they don't have a striker? That is disrespectful to Robert Fleck.

Oh, dear. Go on then. He flopped at Chelsea as well. Oh, dear. Let's talk to Geoff Hayward from the Back of the Net podcast. That's a great retro shirt, Geoff. Thank you. How far back do you have to go for that?

This was 1970. This was the first game I saw. And back in 1970, where were Bournemouth? We were Division 3, old Division 3 that year. That was the year of, or the era of John Bond and Ted McDougall. So going all the way back to 1970, if this is the obvious question, is this as good as you've seen?

Oh, completely. We've never had it so good. This is the best ever, whatever happens. For the rest of the season, we could lose the next 15 games. It's been the best ever. And actually, it shouldn't be forgotten, should it, that you had a little bit of a sticky start. I take into account your opponents, particularly now,

Forest and Newcastle and West Ham in the League Cup in those first three games. So it wasn't until we just started the turn of August into September that you got your first win at Goodison. Yeah, that's true. Forest, we got a draw and played pretty well. Newcastle, we got a draw, should have won, but, you know, good old VAR disallowed a shoulder ball that was not a handball.

So we could have won that one. Newcastle were lucky. West Ham in the coming, that's the Carabao Cup. So, yeah. But I think what we saw from Iriola if you go back to the season before lots of people are talking about the the first nine games of last season when Iriola started and say you know he was nearly getting the sack or whatever he was not nearly getting the sack it just took time for what he wanted to instill in the players to actually bed in. And anyone who was a Bournemouth fan in those nine games

could see what we were about or what he was trying to do. We had a lot of confidence in the way we were playing even then, but it just wasn't gelling. Now it's gelling. This season, from pretty much the first kick of the first game, it's been gelling and it's just getting better and better and honestly it's such a joy to watch absolutely thrilling was there a point jeff this season where you've you kind of thought like they you obviously realized early on they

look good and that there was there was that kind of continued growth from last season has there been a point where you thought huh these are really good was there a moment that kind of turned you on to the idea that perhaps this might be an improvement even on last season well Chris talked about fearlessness and actually you know let me go on the record I agree with Chris I wonder if he's feeling all right but I do agree with him and I think that fearlessness was always something that that the team had that Iriolaola talked about, about not fearing the opposition. But that's really tough to put into practice, particularly when we came up against Manchester City,

who have beaten us in every game in the Premier League, in the Eddie Howe era, under Iriola. And, you know, they've spanked us a few times in that. But when we beat them, albeit it is Manchester City this season, but still, that was a statement result. And I think that made the players really believe that what Iriola was trying to get them to do and what is succeeding in getting them to do, they could do it and it would work no matter who the opposition was. Firstly, thank you for mentioning the Man City defeat.

It hurts bad, that one. But I do agree with you in terms of I think that's a massive mentality shift when you're beating the Premier League champions and you're beating teams that are supposed to be above Bournemouth. And I think Chris was right in terms of the pressure. It'll be so interesting now after this really good run of form, especially with Liverpool coming up at this weekend. The expectation probably from us is potentially

can Bournemouth do something? Can they go and do something special that they've done over this last few months? Because I think you're right. I think it's been so good that he's been able to have time with the players because I think the way that he plays, it's so...

You can tell the players know exactly what to do in and out of possession and we spoke about the injured players, Chappers, in terms of there's no coincidence that those players that have come in have came in and performed well because they've been coached very well on and off the training pitch and not just coming in and just making a few games, they've hit

the ground running, the likes of David Brooks I'm a big fan of Brooks, he played at Man City and he's been through a lot over these last few seasons. It's so good to see him playing well. So I think the lot goes to the manager, but also the players as well to kind of take all that information and kind of give him some time.

Totally agree. I think Brooks has been outstanding the last few games and he's been a bit part player for most of this season. He was out on loan at Southampton last season because he couldn't get in the squad even on the match day squad. But now, given the chance and given that opportunity when we've needed him, boy, has he stepped up. And actually, you know, you can go one to 11 at the moment. Everybody is turning up. There's a great deal of teamwork.

The players are really believing in what they're doing they're believing in what they're being asked to do and it's working and interestingly if you look at the stats our shots that we typically have in a game I mean I was looking at the the Liverpool game at Anfield where that was our worst defeat of the season earlier last year and we lost 3-0. But actually, we matched Liverpool. We had 19 shots at Anfield against them and we are doing now what we weren't doing in that sort of game,

which is finishing. And if you look again at Saturday's stats, we had fewer shots than Forest, but we scored five of our 16. You say one to 11, but actually you would go more than one to 11, wouldn't you? Part of that is because of the injuries. But Iraola's subs, more often than not, work.

The subs have scored 11 this season. They've assisted seven. They've worked that out of the stats people but that is a the sort of 17 points one when it comes down to the changes that are always made so so one that's tactical now two that's squad management yeah i agree why i say one to 11 is because we've only had 11 the last few games and we haven't had that bench option so what he's uh previously done this season is a minute 60 65 the wingers get replaced it's the forward players that that are uh rotated and what that does is it just gives that press more energy more dynamism for that last 30 and

the people coming off the bench people people like Sinisterra, injured, Dango, who's been playing centre-forward, filling in for Evan Nielsen and Unal, he's been coming off the bench, but they are real impact players. And we don't have that currently. We haven't had that since a month now. Does it matter?

No. It's incredible what he's doing at the moment jeff i don't want to put a sort of dampener on proceedings i mean the issue the issue i mean heaven heaven forbid you would do that because you're doing so well jeff you know what i'm gonna say iriola there'll be clubs you know no doubt courting him and looking at the job he's done. I mean, it is literally how long can you hang on to him for? Yeah, well, I read today, Chris, that Spurs are interested in him. But why would you go and want to coach in the Championship? You're better than that, Joe.

Do you know what, Chris? I know. I think that admittedly is unlikely, the idea of Spurs in the Championship. But I do think Bournemouth offer a manager like Iola something really precious, which is a really stable environment. He's created that, Rory, hasn't he? Well, I think to an extent he can take credit for it,

but I think it speaks to the owners as well and to the sporting structure of the club where everything's aligned. The fact that this will sound like damning with faint praise, but the fact that Bournemouth is not one of those kind of big self-appointed elite and inverted commas clubs that has traditions and a really vocal kind of factional sort of fan base where there's always pressure on everything. That,

that is kind of an element of chaos for a manager. Whereas Iriola has a club that's completely aligned, that believes in his vision, that is prepared to support him. As Jeff says, he lost nine games at the start of last season. There was no pressure whatsoever. He also has a fan base that I suspect widely shares the opinion this is the best team that they have ever had at Bournemouth.

And that means you can kind of work as you want to work, whereas you go to Spurs or wherever, and you're suddenly dealing with an awful lot of politics an awful lot of pressure an awful lot of sort of wildly different expectations if his aim if i don't know what and only ariola wants from life but if his aim is to manage you know one of the real mega clubs then i think bournemouth might be a better platform for that than spurs do Do you find that a fair summation, Jeff? Or do you find it slightly patronising?

No, I think... I was thinking the same. Almost a real Rory. I'm not saying they're not real. Definitely there. I've been. I think the clue really is to look for the clubs that Iriola's managed before he came to us. And Valenciano in Spain, sorry about the pronunciation,

but they were a small club that punched above their weight. We're of a similar model and he's enjoying that. And I think that that fits his DNA really well. He's very talented. He's super talented. He's the best coach we've ever had. And I'm including Eddie Howe in that. And honestly, I don't think any Bournemouth fan would disagree with my statement. He probably will go on at some point to manage somewhere bigger,

but as long as we've got him, we're going to enjoy the heck out of his team. Is there one player, without compounding the negativity, is there one player that if you lost, you'd be in trouble? Or are you so much of a collective that that wouldn't be the case i don't think so at the moment i think if i could i'd like to give a shout out to one of the players who doesn't get much attention but is absolutely key to the way we play and one of my colleagues on the pod talked about him earlier saying that if sc had 11 Ryan Christie's, they'd win the World Cup. And honestly, he is so important to the way the team functions

and has been brilliant this season. Converted, incidentally, bought by Scott Parker as a left wide player, now playing a number eight and is brilliant at it. Thank you very much for coming on, Geoff. Really appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of your season. Certainly will. Champions League,

here we come. Geoff Hayward from the back of the net podcast. The other thing to say in all of this, Steph, they've got the best home defence in the Premier League.

They've only conceded seven at home. Yeah, their home record is pretty scary to be honest and probably like the base of what they've done

the rest of the season. I think, you look at the likes of Dean Hoysen, I think he's come in the last eight or ten games and he's performed really well. Probably a little bit of an unknown to the Premier League, but as a centre-half, he's elegant on the ball, but also he does his job. And I think you're speaking about the likes of Christy there,

Cook, I think they do the things that we probably are not good on the eye but are really essential to successful teams and I think Bournemouth have got that real good balance of they have all these players that can go and create goals and score goals,

have been prolific this season but ultimately, even Kepa, I don't think even Kepa has even had a bit of a mention and he had a great game at the weekend, he kept Bournemouth in the game

and I think that defensive record will provide them with a good base to then go and have that attack and flair in them transitions especially. That shouldn't be forgotten, should it? That right on deadline day in the summer, they lost their goalkeeper who was also their captain to Arsenal. Yeah, and I think Kepa had a name coming from Chelsea, not much confidence from the Chelsea fans,

and he's come in. You can see that there's confidence growing within this Bournemouth team. I think you look at Kluivert's goal on Saturday, you don't hit that unless you're full of confidence and you have a belief in your ability. When you look at Bournemouth's injuries, Scott's got a meniscus tear,

Ounel's done his cruciate ligament, Sinistera, Araujo, Sadesi, Tavernier all have muscle problems, three of them hamstring injuries, one a thigh problem, Adam Smith has got a muscle injury, Evan Nielsen has broken his foot. Isn't it interesting that we sympathise

with Bournemouth for their injuries and say how well they're doing with only 12 fit players and a bench full of kids. But with Tottenham's injuries, we're like, well, what is Ange Postacoglu doing to them that means they're doing with only 12 fit players and a bench full of kids. But with Tottenham's injuries, we're like, well, what is Ange Postakoglu doing to them that means that they have so many injuries? Isn't it interesting how we frame the discussions sometimes?

Or is that because one of them's doing well and the other one isn't? Yeah, I think so. But that's what you journalists do, isn't it? You frame things in a certain way. Yeah, but it is right. And but I also think that the club side with the club size without being patronising like Rory was earlier, the expectation hasn't been or isn't there for Bournemouth, so we don't notice it so much. But it is about time we all set up, and well, we are doing tonight, and gave Bournemouth the credit which they certainly deserve. But you're right about Tottenham. Bournemouth just get on with it, don't they?

And yet at Tottenham, it's a weight on Andrew Postakoglou's shoulders. Is it because of how both clubs are performing, do you think, Rory? Or is it one rule how we report for one and one rule for the other? I'm not sure there's a right answer. No, there probably isn't. I think results obviously lend themselves to certain narratives. So if you have a team that's winning despite injuries and a team that's losing because of injuries it's easy to

kind of say well that these two things are related obviously it's in the manager's interest to say the problem here is the injuries if you're losing games I think the other thing is and this is is something that will not be popular at the vitality is to do with the scale of interest in the clubs that Spurs have a much more bigger imprint more as expected of them if Bournemouth were in a bitnemouth were in a bit of a slump at the moment, then there wouldn't necessarily be a load of pressure on Iriola because he has so many players injured. Whereas at Spurs, there is a point where the manager is kind of expected to turn it around.

I think that's probably where expectations come into it and the kind of traditional roles of the clubs. And it's one of the things that I think is kind of a competitive advantage for Bournemouth because if you're a manager, you want to work in the most relaxed and them players to feel as though they are very much part of the squad and part of the team and when they are called upon, they are ready and they feel as though they've got something to kind of contribute towards the team. That's my feeling in terms of both the teams.

I feel as though Spurs on a bigger scale in terms of interest from all of us and all the fans in terms of probably a bigger club in terms of bigger stadium they're so desperate to win a trophy but Bournemouth he's been able to manage that situation and I do think results definitely help the narrative. So do you think within a squad then as we move it on to Tottenham if a manager consistently talks about players that are missing that can only have a detrimental effect on those who are fit. Yeah, because I think you have two choices, don't you? You try and attack it in terms of,

OK, this is the situation, I've got players missing. And that happens to all teams. This is not just the top of the Premier League or the bottom of the Premier League. That's sport, that's elite sport. You're going to have key players missing. But for me, I think a lot of it is in the mindset and in the language that you put out

because players listen. I've been there. You kind of listen. All right, OK, we've got one player missing, but actually I play in her position. So does that mean that you're doubting my ability? Whereas that kind of framework around the whole kind of injury situation, I think it has been turned into positive for Bournemouth. He said, OK, I can rely on different players coming in and stamping their authority. Whereas for Tottenham, it's spir spiralled into this is the only issue. But then if you haven't got them players available, something else has to change, whether it's tactics, formations,

the way you're setting your team up, because you haven't got that profile of player that you originally wanted. But history frames all of that as well, doesn't it, Chris or Rory? I think Spurs are in quite a tricky position as a club and as a fan base because to an extent you could interpret the last well 24 years 16 managers that was on the banner at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium on Sunday you could interpret the last 24 years as kind of a success for Tottenham to be honest because a lot of clubs of that class in English football that kind of upper middle class the traditional upper middle class that you know for Tottenham, to be honest, because a lot of clubs of that class in English football, that kind of upper middle class, the traditional upper middle class that, you know, encompasses

Tottenham, Villa, Everton, teams of West Ham, teams, you know, big histories, huge fan bases, a lot of expectation. They've been kind of caught out by the transformational effects of the Premier League's money. And Spurs haven't. Spurs are part of the elite and that is because they have been run really judiciously. They've sold well. They've sometimes bought well. I think you can probably quibble about how well they've appointed managers over the years and they've certainly been too impatient at times. They've moved into an amazing new stadium.

They've got this incredible commercial revenue. They've done all these things. They're a modern super club. They've been to a Champions League final. They were regulars for a while in the Champions League. That feels like success but then because they've never been able Champions League final they were regulars for a while in the Champions League that feels like success but then because they've never been able to take it on to kind of what feels like the natural next step I think for the fans it must feel a little bit like being caught in purgatory

and yeah this season, look, Spurs are 15th in the Premier League which is still very difficult to believe but this season is clearly unravelling at speed but when you demand change from the board and it's interesting that a lot of the Andrews have been

directed more at Levy than at Posta Codlu at the moment that might change I'm not quite sure what that change looks like do you mean you want

the club to be sold do you want to be owned by a nation state do you want to be at the mercy of some San Francisco

finance bro is that the future or is it a case that you kind of want to be at the mercy of some San Francisco finance bro? Is that the future? Or is it a case that you kind of want to... It strikes me that what Spurs need and want more than anything is maybe a slight change in culture where they look at a squad that has been decimated by injuries in January and they say, do you know what, we probably need to put 30, 40 million quid into this just to get us through to the end of the season

rather than always kind of trying to survive on a shoestring. Well, there are lots of questions for you to answer, of the season, rather than always kind of trying to survive on a shoestring. Well, there are lots of questions for you to answer, Jack Hussey, aren't they, from Rule the Roost podcast, who popped up on the show just as Rory was halfway through that. Are you in purgatory? Yeah, somewhat, you could say that. I mean, I think it's probably more,

it's getting to the bottom end of purgatory at the moment after the weekend's result. But, you know, it's a strange time. i think rory raised a really good point there that i think for quite for quite some time a lot of spurs fans felt i don't know a sense of just frustration that it maybe wasn't recognized enough that tottenham had done a really good job in pulling away from the likes of newcastle villa maybe ever, and sort of created our own little island, perhaps behind Arsenal United and such. And we were sort of one of the first clubs to, like you say, Rory, to really recognise the direction in which football was going,

play the market quite smart, buying a lot of young English talent and building on that and having this clear sort of roadmap to success which has culminated in us having this kind of I guess super club moniker if you like but I think the problem that this is that this has raised really is that we've we've we've gone on this long road to get there and I think if we were to be brutally honest about it, we got a nice kind of leap at the very end of it with the talent of Maurizio Pochettino, that I think everybody knew he was going to be a great manager,

but perhaps not quite as brilliant as he turned out to be at Tottenham. And also the talents of Harry Kane and Son Heung-min, quite how brilliant they were, which probably maybe inflated Tottenham's standing at that point. And I think ever since we've perhaps, you know, we can look at it in sort of the recency of losing Kane and Son just getting to a point in his career now where he's simply getting a bit older

and say they papered over the cracks and everything like that. But I also think part of it is that Daniel Levy, he has done a great job in getting Tottenham to where they are, building the stadium and perhaps increasing the size of the brand, if you like. But it's felt like since we've arrived at that point that we've not really built on that at all.

And now other clubs are starting to catch up with us. And building on it was one of the things a Tottenham fan said to me, actually, Jack. Not necessarily just in this current phase now with the new stadium or whatever, but a couple of times over the last 20 years maybe. Once around the Harry Redknapp time when there was an opportunity to maybe go quite big with some players and see what could happen and once then around that Maurizio Pochettino Champions League

time right go for it then whereas it went the other way and virtually every fullback left so that strikes me as one of the big gripes is that when the opportunity is there to give it a go, they're reluctant to give it a go. This is it. It's that building on a position of strength, if you like. And this is what plays into the certain sense of many Spurs fans anyway, that sporting success isn't really the priority at Tottenham. If we do get to one of these

points where if a manager like Maurizio Pochettino can come along galvanize say a young core of players add in a couple of extra players here and there as he did along the way but still operate within kind of sensible means not paying huge wages to certain players or spending loads on transfer fees if if he can get you say consistently qualifying for the champions league there's this sense that well that's it that's job done like we've we've achieved what we wanted to we've managed to do this on a i don't want to say a shoestring budget because i don't think that's accurate but still should we say a a budget that isn't probably at least in say wage spending things like that comparable to many of the other teams that we're

competing with or have been above us. Let me just give the stats on that then which gives it some context for people the Deloitte Football Money League report for the 23-24 season came out last week Tottenham spent 220220 million on wages, 42% of their revenue. If you want some contrast to that, Manchester City, 57%, Manchester United, 56%, Liverpool, 63%,

Arsenal, 53%, Chelsea, 72%, West Ham, 58%, Villa, 96%, according to this report. All the other Premier League sides in the top 20 are spending at least 10% more of their revenue on wages, just as some context on that. The flip side, just to keep going with the finances,

their net spend on the squad since 2016-17 is £535 million. That puts them ahead of City, ahead of Liverpool. Liverpool's net spend is £309 million. It is half of Manchester United whose net spend is just over a billion. Anyhow, next question. Is that net, as in that's been out of spend? That's from football transfers, which is the source here. Net spend since 2016-17 for Tottenham is £535 million.

I was just going to say, it sounds like Manchester United have quite badly run. No one's mentioned it. For United, it's just over a billion. Steph, do you have a question to move back to Tottenham? You're trying to deflect it on the Man United thing to me, aren't you? I was, I was. When you actually just read that, it's like, wow.

Yeah, I mean, they're crazy numbers. And I think as a Tottenham fan, I can understand the frustration. I think in terms of you kind of get to a point and then it's like, okay, like we're where we should be and how do we kind of progress from there? But ultimately, it's just not happened this season. And I look at the players, obviously, Solanke, he was a big signing in the summer and having him injured is a big miss for Tottenham. But the worry for me is the midfield.

I don't really see how that midfield kind of works together or who their main player is. And that's such an important part of the pitch. And when you've got players like Madison, I think Madison, he came to the club and everybody expected big things from him, but he hasn't really been that consistent this season. No, and I think that's a really good point

you raise there, Steph, because what we would say is after a year and a half, nearly two years, essentially, into Andrew Postacoglu's tenure, that we still don't know what Tottenham's best midfield is. We still don't really even know what Tottenham's first choice midfield is. That's clearly a problem. I think, again, I keep repeating myself, but this sense that sporting achievement, sporting

success isn't really the priority at Spurs. Things like this are emblematic of that. sporting achievement, sporting success isn't really the priority at Spurs is, you know, things like this are emblematic of that. This sense that a manager can kind of make do with what he's been given. I mean, this year, for example, I mean, some of the money we have spent in summer has been on Archie Gray and Lucas Bergwell, who have turned out to be brilliant, you know, but they're two 18-year- old lads these and it's no disrespect to them whatsoever they've been two like say two of our better players but we're at risk in in my opinion anyway of running these kind of young players into the ground right now you know if you look at that Leicester game the in the the other day you know ideally that's the type of game that really with

all due respect to Leicester at least how they are at the moment Spurs should really have been controlling that type of game and have the freedom to bring on a player like Archie Gray or something like that give him 15 minutes towards the end of the game let him experience a bit let him kind of grow naturally into the side but such is the kind of the state the state of the squad and everything we're having to throw players like that in and I think it's fantastic that we have one eye on the future in buying these kind of young players but again the problem is that we never seem to be able to just get the momentum right you know we had those we had those brilliant years under Maurizio Pochettino where we had an amazing sort of first 11 and a strong enough squad

but we weren't signing any other players and that's when you would sort of say we maybe should have been signing those Archie Gray, Lucas Bergvall type players who are ready to step in when, say, a Moussa Dembele or a Victor Wanyama steps out of the side or has to retire. But we didn't do that. And now we've kind of done the flip side in that we don't really have enough available first team players and we're buying those players for tomorrow and playing them today and it it just it all seems somewhat upside down and incoherent as to what our strategy is jack thank you very much for coming on appreciate it thank you uh jack uh from rule the roost podcast the football daily podcast on bbc sounds The Football Daily Podcast on BBC Sounds Women's Football Weekly on The Football Daily

I'm Ben Haynes I'm Ellen White and I'm Jen Beattie and on Tuesdays on The Football Daily we bring you the Women's Football Weekly As a manager

I'm really proud of my players and the performance they had tonight in the game As we dive head first into all things WSL and beyond in the women's game.

It's very big now, it's very alive. There's a lot of fans and supporters. Women's Football Weekly, only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC Sounds. The Football Daily Podcast. With Mark Chapman. Steph Horton, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith on the Monday night club. Manchester United won 1-0 at Fulham yesterday.

Ruben Amarin was again asked about Marcus Rashford, whether there was any way back for him. He suggested that he'd rather give a place on the bench to his 63-year-old goalkeeping coach than Rashford. It's the same, it's the same, it's always the same reason. So, the reason is the training, the way I see what a footballer should do in training, in life and it's every day, every detail. So, if things don't change, I will not change. Nështë nështë të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të të we miss a little bit like pace to go to change the game to move some pieces

but I prefer like that I will put Vital before I put a player that don't give the maximum every day so I will not change

in that department What a mess Steph He set his precedent hasn't he without a doubt and it is I think it's all

we've been speaking about this for about two years now in terms of Marcus Rashford and where his future lies and how he's going to impact Man United. And I think as a Man United fan, you probably want your homegrown player to be that leading player

and no matter what manager he is. And it's just, at this moment in time, I think, in my opinion, the best thing would be probably to move what is Marcus's ambitions that's what we won't know and what he wants to do but Marcus Rashford is too good of a player to be not including the squad but I think Amaran's right in the sense of you have to do it absolutely every single day to be the best version of yourself it's not you to be the best and being the best in elite sport,

especially football in the competition so high, you have to turn up every day, you have to apply yourself. And what he's saying is that Marcus is not doing that at this moment in time. What level club do you think he should be, or his people, should be pitching himself at for a move? Because we've heard, read, everything, haven't we? From Barcelona to Milan to Borussia Dortmund to Monaco. All four of them are Champions League clubs at the moment,

having slightly different seasons and different strengths of league. Where should he be pitching himself? That's what I mean in terms of what is his ambitions because at this moment in time he hasn't played enough football over these last few months so what level would he actually be at is it a case where you just want to go and play football and get that enjoyment back get that desire back to be on the pitch and performing at his best because we know there's potential there we've seen it before in that 30 goal season where he was really good for Manchester United but that's not been consistent

enough and how old is Marcus Rashford now? 27. 27 he's not a young boy anymore he's experienced at this level and this is probably a crucial season for him but I think when you get a manager saying that in terms of he's not sure on his mentality his application I think managers get conscious bias and no matter what you do

over this next five days that's always going to be in the back of a manager's mind I think it's really hard for Rashford to envisage Rashford coming back

from that from everything Amarim said I don't quite see a route by which Rashford like Steph says how does he persuade him that he's taking it seriously? Train properly, maybe put effort in. I mean, it's quite basic what Amarim said.

We've heard managers call out players before. What's he asking for? It's actually not that difficult, but for whatever reason, Rashford is playing up. And that, I'm afraid, is totally unacceptable. And Rashford does have a problem, whether you like it or not. He's got inflated wages and what have you. And the other thing is, we all know Marcus Rashford was a wonderful footballer,

probably still is, but are these clubs, Amrim coming out publicly and saying these things, that isn't doing Marcus Rashford any favours for potential suitors, people who are looking to sign him. And they're thinking, well, are we going to waste a large chunk of money on Marcus Rashford? Is he going to train properly for us? Is he going to apply himself?

Which Marcus Rashford, which version of Marcus Rashford are we going to see? So what Imrim's done is an absolute last resort. He's well within his rights to do it. He's not asking for anything extraordinary. He's just asking Marcus Rashford, as he asks

every player, to go in and apply himself every day. Do you know what? That really isn't difficult. He did it before. He obviously isn't doing it for whatever reason. He's too big for his boots. I wonder if the wages are related to Amarim's approach, though,

because of the clubs that you mentioned, Chappers, Milan can't get close to Marcus Rashford's wages. I think they now can't sign him anyway because they've used their last non-EU space on Karl Walker. I don't know if anyone around Marcus Rashford has watched the way Rafinha's playing this year. Barcelona don't need a left winger, not a chance. And the guy who plays up front is a Polish fella,

scores goals in quite large volumes. There's not a spot at Barcelona. Dortmund couldn't match his wages and I suspect Monaco couldn't either because the days of Ribelovlev, the owner at Monaco, bankrolling superstar signings, they finished like 10 years ago.

So I wonder if what Amir is doing is saying to Rashford effectively, look, there is no place for you here. If you want to play football, you have to take a wage cut. You have to find somewhere that you can kickstart your career if you want to, but you don't have to accept that the sum that you're earning at the moment

is out of the question. I spoke to a friend of mine at Napoli a couple of weeks ago when they were linked with Rashford, and the response was that on the wages they think he's on, which I suspect is accurate, that would buy four or five players. That's how much. they think he's on, which I suspect is accurate, that would buy four or five players for him. Tricia Carrich-Gellier, who's just left, was on the same contract he'd signed when he joined from Dinamo Batumi.

They're not paying £320,000, £350,000 a week to players in any other country than England and Saudi Arabia. Rashford has to make a choice. If he wants to play, I suspect he'll have to probably go abroad or maybe drop to a lower theoretical level in the Premier League, although perhaps not on a lower actual level in the Premier League.

And he's going to have to accept, I suspect, that he's going to take a hit on his wages, especially given that United are what? Currently saying they're close to their PSR limit. They're about to raise ticket prices and they want the government to pay for a stadium. I'm guessing United aren't going to pick up the slack on his wages. That was why I questioned

what Marcus Rashford wants to do because there has to be some sort of sacrifice. It's either get your head down, you work hard, which, like Chris said, as a footballer, that should just be a given.

You should turn up to training every single day and that should be your approach. But that's why I was on about hammering in terms of a conscious bias. Once sometimes managers get that little bit in the head, it's going to be hard for them to trust Rashford again your approach but that's why I was on about Ameren in terms of a conscious bias once sometimes managers get that little bit in the head

it's going to be hard for him to trust Rashford again because of all the stuff that he's seen over this last month and Ameren had to come out and say

that he's trying to rebuild a Man United team with young players players that he's trying to buy into his philosophy and unfortunately

Rashford's been used as an example of In the men's game this may be difficult for you to answer but I know do you think there's an example of. In the men's game, this may be difficult for you to answer, but do you think there's an element of losing face if you move somewhere for less money? Potentially, yeah.

I do think that, but ultimately, Marcus Rashford, 27, I think sometimes we all perceive him as still quite a young professional, but he's really not. And also, as a footballer, you've got a new England manager coming in and the mindset should be,

right, OK, I need to do absolutely everything to try and get back into this England side. That's why I'm a little bit stuck in terms of what does he want to achieve in his career because he has so much potential to do some amazing things, but something has to be sacrificed. The BBC Sport YouTube channel had a vote on it.

Would you take Rashford at your club? I mean, this seems quite harsh, this. No, 75%. Yes, 25%. But that really annoys me. That really, that just really annoys me because I'm not being funny

and I'm going to single out Peterborough completely at random. This idea that, because Marcus Rashford has been quite bad for Manchester United for a bit, that he's not good enough

to play for anybody is nonsense. It's just, it's obviously nonsense. I don't know if there are any Peterborough fans on that vote. I mean, I don't know either. Well, let me read you this email then. Is it from a Peterborough fan? No, it's not. Right?

The poor person who put that question up. I mean, you know, that wasn't me who said that. This is an email. mnc at bbc.co.uk. Evening groovy gang. Let's not keep that going. As a Swansea fan, I would have Marcus Rashford

nowhere near us, even if we could afford him. We're slipping rapidly down the championship table and someone with an attitude issue, whatever it may be, would not help any team, let alone one in a relegation scrap in any league. Cheers, Freddie in the Seychelles. That's a hard life, isn't it?

Right, thank you very much for the email, Freddie. Just to say, 1992, Leeds United got rid of a player who had an attitude problem, and he turned into Eric Cantona. He didn't turn into him, he already was. He turned into the Eric Cantona we came to

know and resent. It's not a problem. Some players have attitude problems. No, but that's the thing, isn't it, Chris? And you made the point. It depends on whether, or Steph maybe made the point, it depends on whether you have a manager at your club who thinks, I will

park the talking down of Marcus Rashford by Ruben Amorim and predecessors, and I will be the person to turn him round. There will be others who think, well, as Freddie says, I don't want to go there, rightly or wrongly. Whatever happens next, Marcus Rashford, if I'm Marcus Rashford, the main thing is, from his perspective, is to just be normal,

be like everybody else. But he must be, from his perspective, is to just be normal, be like everybody else. But he must be desperate for his career, the highs which he's had. He must see it is in danger of slipping away for various reasons. So he needs to get out of there in January, but it doesn't look like that's going to be straightforward. Have you had people join you who have had rumoured attitude problems and then they arrive and you think, I don't see what all the fuss is about? Yeah, a little bit, yeah. And I think to go along with Chris's point,

is it just the actual environment that needs to change? Is it Marcus Rashford in terms of, does Man United bring the best out of him at this moment in time? He's been there for a long, long time. He had chances at Amarant, he started his first game, he played as that number nine and it was a different role for him. We've seen him play that before, but obviously a new system, new way of playing, new manager.

I just want him to go and play football. I think ultimately, I think hopefully he feels like that, that he just wants to go and show what he can do and whether that is going to a lesser team but ultimately Man United this moment in time are trying to become a better team so what is the level that he wants to go to obviously Manchester United is a massive club and and rightly so but ultimately this is about Marcus Rashford and getting the best out of his career because a football career is really short next up is it good that the world transfer record has gone in women's football I'm undecided you know chap makes it sound like I know that to me you know what

this is massive for women's football in the sense of especially in England in our league where it's now the best league in the world in my opinion and to be able to for Chelsea Football Club to be able to attract a player like Naomi Germer

who's 24 and she's a regular in the USA team and she's renowned as one of the best defenders in the world to get her to come to this league

is huge but for me In the sense that it is that message that you need to come to the WSL now if that will be the best league in the world and not play in America yeah I think in terms of that messaging to other players that potentially are thinking oh maybe can I move to England because

is the league good enough but actually in general it is competitive but my worry is it's going to be two or three teams that are buying the best players so what happens to the rest of the league but for me this is a lesson for all the other clubs that they need to start investing they need to kind of put their money in to make it as competitive as possible but what a signing it's it that could be the difference especially for this season in terms of someone coming in and she's going to be a long-term project for Chelsea and she's going to be there for a long time. But ultimately this season, Chelsea are absolutely flying.

Before we get on to her and what she will bring, what happens if some of those clubs can't invest? This is the stage that we're at as a WSL, as a league, is that we want to make it the best and we want to continue to make it the best. And the only way you can do that is to have games every week that are competitive and not so predictable and we want owners and football clubs to kind of go, right, okay, we're going to take this seriously. This is not just about trying to put in as little as possible

and you have to go and invest in players, invest in the professionalism of the game and the standard and the likes of Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal have done that for a long time now. It's now about other clubs kind of really biting the bullet and going, yeah, this is where we want to be and this is what we need to do for the game in general.

Chappers, I'm not having a go. And I think there is a historic issue with the way the WSL has tethered teams to the men's teams to try and encourage investment, which has kind of cut off some of the more historic sides in women's football. The Doncaster Bells being the best example, but others have struggled as well. Bristol, I think, until they were tethered. But they can all invest. Just don't buy one backup right back that you don't need in men's football and you can fund a whole women's football team that would be extremely successful basically instantaneously. Because the price difference is still so... This question comes from a position of ignorance on my behalf then.

In an era of PSR and all these accounts and what you have to do and how you balance your books, can you simply not spend £50 million on a right back and put it into your women's set-up? As far as I know, yeah. You can put what you like into the women's set-up. The reason they don't is the more

complicated bit of, at some point, there is a willingness, a desire to see the women's team become self-sustaining, which I think, and I would hope Steph would agree with me, is crucial that to see the women's team become self-sustaining, which I think, and I would hope Steph would agree with me, is crucial that, like women's football can't be like an offshoot of men's football. It doesn't work. Does it will always necessarily come second in the priority list of the people running those clubs or certainly for the long term?

And Rory, I feel as though it then depends on the men's success because I was at Leeds United when I was younger and because they weren't doing as well, the obvious cut is cut is just to go oh actually the women's team can get sacrifice and and that's not okay and that happened at Sunderland as well when I was there so I think I understand the sustainable sustainability and that's why I kind of wanted to mention the joy stadium this is now where football women's football clubs have got to kind of look and go right okay commercially how can we actually generate the money to then be able to buy the best players to a stay in the league and that's why we say that about men's football when teams get promoted to the premier league we know that it's

going to be hard for them to stay in because they're not going to be able to attract the players necessary to keep them there and that's what's now starting to happen the WSL like Crystal Palace are bottom of the league and they got promoted last season, but it's because they can't necessarily attract the players that are on good wages. They want to see ambitious players that are coming in an ambitious club as well. It's a big statement for Chelsea. It would be a concern

if you're looking at competition, Chris. If Chelsea are seven clear at the moment, have won it for the last five seasons, seven of the last eight, no matter actually how well run Arsenal and Manchester City are in particular, nobody can touch them. And if they're spending a million dollars,

which is what this is, on a player, how do other clubs bridge the gap? It makes it really difficult. And what stops Chelsea from going again and carrying on this lavish spending? But it is up to your Manchester City to try and keep pace. But, I mean, it seems to be a really difficult one. And there's the question, you know,

in men's football in Scotland, Celtic have been so dominant. And, you know, I suppose it's a legitimate question. You know, is it good for the women's game, Steph, that Chelsea seem to have this dominance? And it looks like with this signing, they're going to go further ahead and further ahead. So, yeah, it's, you know, how do other teams sort of cope with that and bridge that? I like it in the sense of they're doing it properly.

I like that idea of, OK, this is the standard. We're going to pay for the best players and we have ambitions to win Champions League, to win leagues consistently. But obviously coming from Manchester City, it's so frustrating because you think you get to a point you think you're challenging and then they're going by Ramirez

which was their big money signing last year and she goes and she scores a lot of goals and now the Girma signing I think it was kind of wasn't probably ready for this January but because they got injuries to their centre half and Buchanan she's out with an ACL so I think that's kind of hurried the deal along.

The deal wasn't ready, or she's not ready? No, I think potentially this was going to be a summer sign. She's definitely ready, isn't she? She's very good. She's athletic, she's fast. She's not a typical American player in terms of she's athletic, but at the same time, she reads the game really well, and she's really impressed for

being 24, she's really mature Steph are you happy that the world record is for a defender? Yeah I'm buzzing I'm actually, you know what it is Do you feel like you're now being a little bit more valued? I want to know what my value was in my peak but I don't think it would have been as much as that but you know

what it is, I think that's I think the way that the game's being played and how teams are setting up in terms of the philosophies and the methodologies in terms of how they play a lot of it is depending on the centre-halves and their technical ability to be with the ball and she's definitely up there and Alex Greenwood from Manchester City I think if she had a figure on she would be close to that because she's been so consistent. But this is a big statement from Chelsea. I think this kind of sets out their intentions for not just this year, but for many seasons to come.

Thank you very much, Chris, Rory, Steph. Nice to see you. See you soon. The next episode of the Football Daily will be Women's Football Weekly.