Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Clement gone and who makes the Champions League?

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

On this week’s Monday Night Club, the panel react to Rangers sacking Philippe Clement after 16 months in charge. What’s gone so wrong for him and where will Rangers turn next? Does the interim manager Barry Ferguson have the answer? BBC Scotland’s Tom English joins Chris Sutton, Rory Smith, Paul Robinson and Mark Chapman to react to the news of Clement’s departure. They also discuss who is in the hunt for Champions League spots – Chris has it all worked out with his system – but how will the likes of Nottingham Forest, Chelsea and Newcastle fare? And with news of discontent in France over referees, French football journalist Matt Spiro drops by – should matches be refereed by foreign officials?TIME CODES:00:50 – Philippe Clement out at Rangers 21:50 – Who makes the Champions League? 39:10 – Referees5 Live/Sports Extra Commentaries This Week:Wed 26 Feb 2000 England v Spain in UEFA Women’s Nations League, Fri 28 Feb 2000 Aston Villa v Cardiff in FA Cup, Sat 1 Mar 1215 Crystal Palace v Millwall in FA Cup, Sat 1 Mar 1215 Preston v Burnley in FA Cup on BBC Sport website, Sat 1 Mar 1500 Bournemouth v Wolves in FA Cup, Sat 1 Mar 1745 Man City v Plymouth in FA Cup, Sun 2 Mar 1345 Newcastle v Brighton in FA Cup, Mon 3 Mar 1930 Nottingham Forest v Ipswich in FA Cup.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Welcome to the Monday night club. Rory Smith, Chris Sutton and former England elites goalkeeper Paul Robinson are with us. We're going to start this week with Philippe Clamont sacking at Rangers. His 16 month tenure ended with a 2-0 defeat at home by St Mirren they are 13 points behind Celtic at the top of the Premiership and they're out of the Scottish Cup as well after that defeat at home to Queen's Park but they are

still in the Europa League and yet even though they are still in the Europa League Chris, no surprise that this has happened. I don't think so as you mentioned the defeat to Queen's Park a team who aren't doing particularly well in the Scottish Championship he was always going to struggle to survive that somehow he did do but then when Celtic had left the door slightly a jar after getting beaten against Hibbs on Saturday lunchtime. That's not a jar though is it? Well I know but Rangers, look Celtic were always going to go on to win it unless there was a catastrophe But Rangers still had the chance to close the gap to 10

points and they had a really lame performance at home. I think somebody said that's the first time in 45 years St Mirren have had back-to-back victories against Rangers and there wasn't anybody left at the end. Normally know, normally you get protests, but there was an apathy. And he looks a broken man in his press conference, so I don't think there's any great surprise that he's gone. Looks like Barry Ferguson is going to take over with the likes of, yeah, with Neil McCann, I think, Alan McGregor. So they've gone for the old boys to take them

on to the end of the season. What is really interesting though is this talk about a takeover from San Francisco 49ers and whether that happens or whatever. But of course, who is the next manager going to be to try and take ranges forward. You are, you are in Glasgow this evening. Have you been to any of the sort of local bars near Ibrox to gauge what fans think? No, not yet. I'll wait till after.

That's part of what are the reasons you're there? I thought you could go out and do some research for us. Yeah, well, I'll do that after Mark. Okay, what, pop down to the bars around Ibrox? Yeah, wouldn't be the first time I've been in and around Ibrox. Yeah look it's been a sore season for them and I think Philippe Clamont was a decent guy and when he first came up actually, he, I thought he played a blind in terms, didn't say anything daft,

but Glasgow does for a lot of managers. They all get sort of swallowed up and engulfed and sort of sucked in and Philippe Clamont did. And he had some barmy press conferences and things which he said said but even after Saturday's loss he had absolutely nowhere to go. Chris has mentioned in his words the old boys coming in with Barry Ferguson, Neil McCann and Alan McGregor as well and you you were just saying Paul, when you came into the studio to join me,

that's just for you, let's try and get the fan base back on side with the whole club. Well I think when you look at Barry Ferguson's managerial record as caretaker manager at Blackpool, Clyde and Alloa, obviously a championship club, first division club in Scotland, with a 27% win record, a club like Rangers doesn't bring a manager with those first division club in Scotland, with a 27% win record.

A club like Rangers doesn't bring a manager with those kind of stats in. At this stage of the season, I think the disjoint between the fans, the club, the playing staff, it was all about bringing the fans back to the club, bringing the fans back again and creating an atmosphere. Listen, they've got one huge game coming up against Jose Mourinho's Fenerbahce in the Europa League in the next week or so. And I think to have a full eye brocks rocking again to listen to it's the disjoint between the fans and the club they've been so disillusioned the way that the club's been run the recruitment the lack of spending the

players that have been brought in they've not been good enough and actually attitude and application has been a question of all these players unless it's been a big game they've turned up on a Thursday night against Celtic and they've turned up on a Thursday night in the Europa League not every week in the SPL. I don't think Paul would be popular in the bars in and around Ibrox for bringing up Barry's and a Giro record as well. You could go out together. Well it's valid though isn't it? Although you would, I don't know, should, from your experiences, should being caretaker manager of a club who still have, you know, still in Europe and

the level that they're at, should that be easier than being caretaker manager at Blackpool and Aloua? I don't think that's a bad job for him, I don't think it's a bad appointment. I really don't because he's a fan's favourite, the fans will react to him, the fans will get back to him and they'll get back in the stadium and support him. You know like you said, the league is gone, the league's done, I mean when Celtic, when they beat Celtic they drew the two games after that and didn't close in on that gap, again they failed to capitalise on Celtic's misdemeanours, so the league is gone, what have they got,

what are they playing for the Europa League? And actually with the fan base behind them, they'll react to the player to the coach and staff and the manager that have come in. So Philip Clemore, Rory, I was reading and Tom English is going to join us in just a moment but the feeling at iBrox sort of was and I think Paddy Stewart their chief exec may have said words along these lines that if his CV dropped on his desk then he'd be exactly the kind of manager that they would be looking for. Yeah I mean it strikes me as though the Rangers job at the moment is kind of a poison chalice

because yeah Clément is a manager of reasonable European pedigree, he's not the most illustrious coach you know, he's not Pep Guardiola or Carlo Ancelotti, but he's had a decent career at similar sized clubs to Rangers in a kind of modern European context. I think Chris is completely right in saying that Glasgow has this ability to kind of chew up and spit out otherwise perfectly reasonable managers. Partly, that's just Chris Sutton tends to be waiting and listening for any slight kind of rhetorical flourish that he doesn't like. But generally that is absolutely true. What I think the problem facing Rangers is that I don't know where you go, does the club

doesn't seem to have any plan? And it's been like this for several years, Chris has talked about it with a lot more kind of eloquence and articulacy than I can but Rangers don't have all those things that we talk about modern clubs need and if they're not Real Madrid or Barcelona you need to have an identity you need to have a long-term vision you need to have kind of markets that you shop in where you have a bit of a monopoly and you can get the best the best young talent and act as a filter to then send that out to the Bundesliga or Serie A or the Premier League. Rangers don't do any of that stuff. Every summer at Rangers seems to be a case of kind of

trying to grab whatever they can just to win the lead and I have to be careful when talking about the SPL because Chris shouts at me when I say anything that he thinks is stupid. SPFL, Rory. SPFL, sorry. The Scottish top flight. And Rory, because of that, do you feel like with Ferguson going in there it's an audition, he's kind of on trial that they're just seeing what happens with him. He's not on trial, he's a filler. But what if he goes on and does well this season? Yeah, that's the problem. He will not get it. It's the Solstice attract.

Yeah, exactly that. And what Paul said about why they're doing it to Ferdows and nothing is absolutely spot-on. It's clearly an attempt to give the fans a little bit of meat and get back to the stadium, support this guy that you love, he's got this kind of all-star cast behind him. It means you're appealing to every sort of quadrant of the supporter base. That makes perfect sense in this situation when there is nothing left to play for. It would take a miracle for them to win the Europa League. The issue I think for Rangers has to be longer term they have to work out in a way that Celtic to be honest have

kind of work out what they want to be and how they adapt to to what their place in European football is now because to be honest and this will not go down well in the bars around Ibrox and I am not volunteering to go and do some research there. There needs to be a realization and this will not go down well in the bars around Ibroxen, I am not volunteering to go and do some research there. There needs to be a realisation that it is not enough for Rangers to say our only ambition every season is to beat Celtic to the title. You will not win the title unless you have a longer term plan. Let's bring in Tom English, BBC Scotland's chief sportswriter, who at times has been

making notes throughout this conversation, but most of the time has been shaking his head at it so I don't know if that's a ringing endorsement of some of the things that have been said. Where do you want to begin with all of that? I would suggest maybe Rory's point about the path that they want to be on and the club that they want to be because I think your article on the BBC Sport website did mention that they do want to be because I think your article on the BBC sport website did mention that they do want to be the club that signs young players and polishes them up and then can sell them on at profit. That is part of their plan isn't it? Well look the bottom line and I'm definitely not going to any pubs around Ibrox when I say this. The truth of this, and senior figures at Rangers will tell

you this quietly, Rangers want to be like Celtic. They want to have the same business model, the same player training model, the same age profile, the same ambition as Celtic. That's exactly what they're striving for. Never in a month of Sundays will they say that publicly, but that's what they want to be. They want to be the team from the other side of the city. I think what is interesting is, you know, what's next for Rangers. And this talk about the 49ers is interesting and Patrick Stewart coming in and eventually making the decision to sack Clermont because in December he said they can't keep chopping and changing managers but in the end they had no choice but to get rid of Clamont. But I think the Rangers sort of fan base are quite excited about this link to the 49ers

and maybe look at what's happened at Leeds United and where Leeds are heading. They want a bit of stability, Mark, and cling to and and and they want to build a Game where they can become sustainable and and as Tom has quite rightly said that they can challenge Celtic You're you're I mean you're in and around leads pull. You know what the 49ers investing arm has done within Leads but how they treat Rangers in a partnership with Leeds or as part of a multi-group would be interesting. I think that's a sceptical way to look at it, isn't it?

I think a few of the Rangers fans will look at that sceptically and think if they're a part of a multi-club ownership, where do they sit in that set-up? Leeds United potentially were looking at a Premier League team next year. Arguably, now you look at the Rangers team, there's not one of those Rangers players that would get in Leeds United side in the Championship. If they're to go to the Premier League and strengthen, how is that relationship going to benefit Rangers? They may get players on loan but actually when you look at the player trading sides, I don't actually think it will affect either club really that much. I think there's

what is the conflict of interest if they're both in the same European competition but that's a long way off further down the line. As far as what the 49ers have brought to Leeds, their financial investment, the stability and most of all the business now I think of owning a multi-billion pound business and being part of that and being able to take the club forward off the field has been as big as what they have done on the field as well. Yeah you definitely categorise them as among the better sort of half of American owners in English football I think the 49ers enterprise

is they've been relatively cautious is probably the wrong word but they've not been overly lavish. They seem to have a grasp I think of the sporting business, the sports industry as Paul alludes to. They've got a clear model of how they want to play. The recruitment isn't flawless but it's lined up, it's kind of makes sense. They're looking for certain types of players They've got a manager who plays that style I think lower down the club that streamlining hasn't kind of come to fruition just yet I think the Academy still a bit kind of of an outlier, but they are they know what they're doing I don't know what the percent Tom might know the percentage

That the 49ers want to take in Rangers there are is a they are part of a consortium It's not it's not necessarily just the 49ers want to take in Rangers, they are part of a consortium. It's not necessarily just the 49ers involved. I think Andrew Kavanagh, CEO. Yeah, he's Health Insurance. That's where he's made his money. I am told he is as important, or if not more important, than the 49ers in this. So we still don't know the breakdown, but we know that significant shareholders at the club right now are prepared to sell. They've had this phrase that's been going around for a long time, investor fatigue. They know and acknowledge that the club needs more money, needs more energy, needs different people. It's with the lawyers now and it's going through the lawyers process. They say, they hope that the deal will be completed by June as long as there's no

unpleasant surprises in there. So that gives the fans a bit of hope. I mean, I think if... Does the health insurance guy give them a little bit of hope? Because the last thing they want to be is playing second fiddle to lead over the next decade. Yeah, absolutely. And I suspect that there's probably another one in there as well. I spoke to someone very close to the deal last week and confirmed all the 49ers stuff, but also said that there was at least one, possibly two others who were just as important in this than the 49ers. So I think that does give the fans, look, the fans are just crying out for a changed landscape

here. Now it's not like these people are going to come in and all of a sudden there's going to be the famous football word war chess coming in. There's nosh. I think Rangers fans will be real, the sensible ones will be realistic. But what they're looking for is stability, solid foundations in which to grow and they don't have that now. This is a club that had a sporting director, then they decided they didn't want a sporting director, now they want a sporting director again. They're looking for a manager. They've brought in, you mentioned Barry Ferguson, Neil McCann and Alan McGregor earlier on, there's a fourth former Rangers player in his interim coaching ticket and Billy Dodds. So the old joke, how many Rangers

players does it take to change a club? I don't think Barry Ferguson, he has been appointed as interim head coach. I'm not so sure that Barry Ferguson is going to be the head coach in all of this. Neil McCann will be. I think so, Chris. Neil McCann and Billy Dodds, they're the ones with the more experience of coaching. I think Barry Ferguson's there, you know, the happy Monday. I'm going to be very mean here now because he's a legend of a player, the happy Mondays. You know, this rages on happy Monday and he's a legend of a player the happy mondays you know this rages unhappy monday and he's a bit of a bears character very harsh you couldn't have had the happy monday you couldn't

have had the happy monday without bears tom you couldn't that's me yeah yeah and it is it is harsh it is harsh but but he i think he's he is there as here is the legend. Here is the bit of red meat. He's a club ambassador, isn't he, Tom? He's a club ambassador. He was a genuinely terrific, terrific player. He's coaching Pedigree. It's Clyde, it's Kelty Hartz, and it's Alowa. Now, it doesn't make any sense for a guy without coaching Pedigree to now become even

an interim head coach. But he's there because he's Barry Ferguson. So if he does well, have they got a problem? Like Rory said, have they got an only gonna solve for a problem? He's not gonna get the job Paul. Paul no. Do you know what, I'm bound to both Chris and Tom's knowledge on this but on Scotland but I think on this one Paul's right, this happens all of the time.

They won't want to give Barry Ferguson the job, they will be going into it. It's difficult to the transition between ownership groups. They'll be going into it thinking, it's not going to be Barry Ferguson. Of course it's not going to be Barry Ferguson. His CV reads Clyde, Alua and Kelty Hart. If he does really well, just like Manchester United, they will think, we better give him the job. No they won't. Rory is a zillion percent you are you are totally wrong and Paul is totally wrong I don't know where Tom is on this But you are miles out because because as much as the Rangers fans love Barry focus and respect him as a player

They want to see the club really move forward what I want to ask you Rory And you know you're mentioning the 49ers and something which you know I don't quite know but but Tom's talked about Rangers fans want stability and they want the club to move forward. And both you and Tom have sort of said, well, it's not going to be instant, but that's, there is this expectation that it's all about in Glasgow finishing first.

So, what can you tell the Rangers fans to make them feel a little bit better if the 49ers take over? Or is it just they need to be in for the long haul and need to be patient? My genuine belief, and what I can tell them that will make them feel better is I very rarely have any idea what I'm talking about, but my genuine belief is that doesn't work. And it's been proven not to work and I think to an extent it's maybe insulting the intelligence of Rangers fans to think they don't realize that that if you spend like Tom says it's the road to

ruin to just try and chase this club that's got way more money than you that's much further down the road than you that didn't have ten years in the lower leagues in Scotland trying to make up your place back back among the elite Rangers I would be fascinated to know if the 49ers cavern takeover goes through who they are looking at as a potential head coach, if not Barry Ferguson, for Rangers because I think that appointment is crucial. If you look at the appointments they've made in recent years, it's kind of Steven Gerrard who was kind of iconic English player, maybe he'll be a good manager, let's give it a go.

He'd done an okay coaching job prior to that. Would he be, sorry to jump in, but Richard Hawkins on the YouTube channel has made this point and I've seen it in several places as well. Would he be in the running, Tom? I hesitate to say no, but his track record doesn't deserve

for him to be in the running. I know he's won a league title, but he won it in Covid. He was given all the latitude in the world and all the money that Rangers could possibly throw at him, given the restrictions, to build a league winning team. He eventually did it. If his name wasn't Steven Gerrard, he would have been fired at Rangers a season before. So he was given all of the time. And I think his legacy at Rangers is one trophy in three and a half seasons. Well, Philippe Clément won one trophy in half that time. Giovanni van Bronckers won a trophy and got through European final in a third of the time that Gerrard was there. That wasn't good enough.

It was just because it was his name was Steven Gerrard that he was given all this extra time. I think that would be a backwards move. But Tom, whatever you say, just as a bit of balance, Tom, he did stop the Celtic 10. So I mean, there are a lot of Rangers fans. I don't think it's ridiculous that Steven Gerrard is in the running here, because there are a lot of Rangers fans would like to see him back. If the 49ers group gets to control the appointment, I don't think it will be anyone like Gerrard. I don't think that's the sort of tropes they'd go for.

You thought it was going to be Barry Ferguson five minutes ago. I think that Paul has happened upon a universal truth of football to which Glasgow, which is in many ways, and Chris you're totally right, Glasgow is maybe not a complete exception to lots of rules, but it's a really unique environment in the fact that it's impossible for Rangers to build anything, because as soon as they don't win the league, everybody has this sense of, it has to change, this isn't good enough, we can't finish second, which is not healthy, but I don't think that the 49ers group, from what I know of them, they would be looking for a coach who fits in almost certainly with a sporting director model and who has a very clear kind of demarcated

characteristic style of playing. I'm not sure Stephen Jarrow... At a principle you look at Daniel Fark at Leeds, you look at the way that he plays, his formation, his system, it doesn't change. We criticise Ruben Ameren, Ange Postocoglu for being a disciple to the system. Daniel Fark's exactly the same. Same system every week, different personnel with the same style of playing and that's what they'll look for. Tom, thank you very much for coming on.

Tom English, Chief Sports Writer, BBC Scotland. Thank you very much to Adam and ML on the BBC Sport YouTube stream. Quite rightly pointing out that the pubs around Ibrox might need to start reserving tables this evening with the amount of people on this show looking to do supporter research. The Football Daily podcast on BBC Sounds. Women's Football Weekly on the Football Daily. I'm Ben Haynes. I'm Ellen White.

And I'm Jen Beattie. And on Tuesdays on the Football Daily, we bring you the Women's Football Weekly. As a manager, I'm really proud of my players and the performance they had tonight in the game. As we dive headfirst into all things WSL and beyond in the women's game. It's very big now, it's very alive, there's a lot of fans and supporters. Women's Football Weekly, only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC Sounds. The Football Daily podcast. With Mark Chapman.

If there are five Champions League qualifying spots and you take Liverpool and Arsenal as a given, who gets the other three, Paul? Oh, I was hoping you'd go to the other two first, just got my league table out having a look. It's thrown wide open, I can't imagine that Manchester City are going to finish outside the top four. Nottingham Forest, they've obviously hit the bump in the road that we were kind of half expecting and we just wonder how long that will last.

You look at the Bournemouth are in sixth, Chelsea stumbling, what is it for Chelsea, two wins in eleven, something like that is their form. there's nobody that's actually really standing up and taking hold of it. I mean we're coming towards the end of February and you would argue that the title's done and the relegation places are arguably almost but done aren't they? The thing we're looking at is the race for Champions League. Manchester City for me, absolutely get one, Newcastle they could finish strong and like you say with five places there the other one is up for grabs if City get one and Newcastle get one but there's a lot of big clubs that are sitting just outside it. And the form

table is and this is just in the league over the last five games Bournemouth are in fourth on the form table, Manchester City are in fifth, Nottingham Forest are 12th, Chelsea 14th, Newcastle are 15th. Chris? Who's second? Sorry? Who's second? Everton.

Everton. Everton. So are you throwing Everton in there as making a late run for fifth? I mean that would be amazing. No, I think not. But it kind of illustrates that for all that, you know, Bournemouth had a wonderful season, for all that Forrest have been probably the story of the season, they are, it does look like they're kind of just, I don't want to say regressing to the mean, it sounds a bit patronising, but you know, they're starting

to maybe, the season is catching up with them a little bit, the injuries, the fatigue, all that stuff, the results are turning. But none of the teams that you'd normally expect to be coming strong because of the depth of their resources, because of the amount of money they've spent on their squads, none of them really look like they're in a position to find the consistency to overhaul them easily. So they're both still in the running. Of the teams around sort of third to eighth, the ones with momentum are maybe Newcastle, but they lost their last two before they just beat Forrest at the weekend weekend and maybe Villa is starting to come into it a little bit more but the instinct is to say

that City will get one just because it's Manchester City and they will eventually find enough points to certainly finish fifth. The other two I think are completely open. I think both the guys have been very vague there, I'll tell you the way that this will finish from third to 11th, Manchester City will finish third on 68 points. Third to 11th Manchester City will finish 3rd on 68 points. 3rd to 11th? Yeah. 11th? Hang on, hang on, hang on, sorry, sorry, I know I'm interrupting.

Were you ruling Brentford and Fulham that they weren't in this mix then, no? But they could. Yeah they could absolutely. I want you to do 3rd to 11th, but just before you do it, how have you worked this out this afternoon? Because you were giving points totals as well and I'm told that you've spent a lot of the afternoon doing this. Yeah well I've got my own secret formula. Can we record this just so we play it at the end of the season please. I've looked at the fixtures which each team has has to come and I've

split the league up so I've got Liverpool and Arsenal they're like elite teams okay then third to 11th are the rivals 12 to 16th are the sort of miseries and underachievers 17th are Wolves they're on their own and then you've got 18th and 19th you've got Ipswich and Leicester, they're the of little hope and then you've got 20th the Sinners, Southampton, who are useless and basically I have looked at all the fixture, all the teams I've got to play, each team and I've put it in the mix and I've got my own formula in terms of points per game, the way that I have done it and I've worked out that Manchester City will finish third on 68 points.

Is the formula for points per game not three for a win, one for a draw and one for a loss? Are you working on a different system? That is the way, but there's a slightly different system which I've done. So like when you play Southampton, definite three points, same with Ipswich and Leicester and whatever. I know it doesn't work like that but on average when you know If you look at say say name one of those teams from third to 11th and the guys had Brighton Brighton, okay. Well, they have to play one elite team and that's Liverpool

They play the rivals six of their rivals So teams from third from third to 11th, then they play the no-hopers who were Lester So that's a certain three points and then the the sort of Miserees, Spurs, Palace Everton, Manchester United, West Ham, they play three of those, and then they've got Wolves who are out there on their own, so that's a three points. So I have Brighton finishing in 9th place on 60 points. OK, so do the whole table. Exactly where they are now. Can we have the whole table?

Do the table then. So I've got Manchester City in 3rd on 68 points, Nottingham Forest, my Nottingham Forest Do the whole table. Do the table then. So I've got Manchester City in third on 68 points, Nottingham Forest in fourth on 68 points, Chelsea, you look at Chelsea's next two fixtures. Sorry, sorry, sorry, just on third and fourth both being on 68 points. Do you have a formula for goal difference then? Yes, Manchester City will score more and goal difference in Forrest, yeah so that's that's basically... I was just checking...

That's called goal difference, that's called goal difference and then Chelsea fifth on 65 Bournemouth sixth on 64 Newcastle seventh on 63 there's also you've got to put into the equation FA Cups teams are involved in the FA Cup Chelsea involved in the Conference League, Newcastle Carabao Cup, a little bit of stress there and what have you. And then Aston Villa, my Aston Villa, they've got the FA Cup and the Champions League, they've played a game more, they're going to finish in eighth position on 61 points. Brighton I've already mentioned, ninth 60, and then tenth Fululham they've got tough fixtures actually and 11th Brentford I've got them both on 57 points

but Fulham because they play Southampton I've given them a few more goals. And then did you stop at 11? Yeah because we were only talking about the Champions League places if you want me next week to do another. Well I'm sorry but this is such a successful feature it could it could run into the Championship League one and League two and Scotland as well by the end of the season. And if Chris is right there's not really much point in watching the rest of the season because there's only one or two teams that have changed. That's it actually. But it is, I mean it's fascinating this sort of race for the for the Champions League place isn't it because of you know you look

down to Fulham and Brentford they're not it's not ridiculous to think that they couldn't that it's impossible with the points they're on. If you look at you know if you look at the fixtures I went a little bit more in depth than Rory that doesn't quite add up that they will they will get there with the points that they have to make up to my scientific. The interesting thing on on Forrest and a little bit on Bournemouth maybe, you don't really want to overreact too much on Bournemouth Paul because it was one defeat at home to Wolves at the weekend and they were down to 10 from midway through the first half.

But Johar and Troy Deeney were saying to me last night on match of the day two when it came to Nottingham Forest that the first half of the season, not that teams would take them lightly but there would be an element of, to the day two when it came to Nottingham Forest, that the first half of the season, not that teams would take them lightly, but there would be an element of, okay right, it's Nottingham Forest, whereas now teams are like, hang on a minute, this is Nottingham Forest who are third, and therefore that changes the mindset of the opposition. The way they approach it, yeah, but I think the way that Nottingham Forest play, they're not the orthodox play out from the back team are they? They play to their strengths.

They put the ball in the box to Chris Wood, they'll get the ball out wide, Alanga Hudson, O'Doy, they've got pace. In Morgan Gibbs White they've got quality. But when you look at the team that they've used, you look at the amount of players that they've used, the 12 to 14 players that he's used, what we're getting now to 26, 27 games, it's the same rotation of players that he's got. His squad depth isn't huge, where he can go and change things. He's not going to go away from the system that he plays or the way that he plays. And as you said, people may have been surprised the way that Forrest started the season, the way that they played, the way that they were quite unconventional

at times putting it into the box and playing to the strengths. Whereas now that's what they've got and that's all they've got and the 12, 14 players that he uses, maybe there's a little bit of fatigue dropping in there as well. Three defeats in four and also five of their last six in all competitions, Rory, they've conceded at least two. Yeah, which is the complete antithesis of what Forrest were, isn't it? Forrest built that incredible run on being defensively resolute and as Paul says, kind of playing a slightly unorthodox style that was different to quite a lot of teams in the Premier League. I've always sort of thought that you get about six months out of an approach before the teams that you're playing come up with an antidote and I do wonder whether teams have found that

Forrest, they've found ways to counteract the things that Forrest do well. Do you believe that in this day and age, in a league such as the Premier League, with all the data and all the analytics and all the tracking and all the coverage that you can have six months without being found out? I think it's not found out is slightly loaded as a term isn't it because I'm not sure I don't think you can find out a team with as much quality as Forest have but I think do you know what and I'll say this as someone who was never a player I think you maybe need to feel it I think that might be what it is I think you probably need to face them once to get a sense of,

okay, what is this team like when we're actually up against them, when they're in form, when we can see what it's like when Alander and Hudson are breaking and Gibbs White is pulling the strings in the middle and Chris Wood is making these runs. I think players probably need that real world kind of experience rather than just this is what we expect them to do, this is what they look like, this is what the analysis says, this is your video of what your direct opponent will do. I think you probably need to feel it. I think when you get into the second round of fixtures, the reversed fixtures from the

first half, players have got more of an idea of kind of what to expect. I'm just waiting for Chris to stop scowling and say something. I don't know what to say about that. Six months to sort of work out how not to go for us. I think that's pretty quick. That's pretty fast. To be able to do in a few, I mean, not precisely six months, but in a few months to be.

We even have televisions in Norfolk, Rory, and we can analyze how forests play. months but we even we even have televisions in Norfolk Rory and you know if we can analyze how forest play and that you know they they have done it differently do you know I'm gonna disagree with Paul and Rory don't know maybe this is just a blip I think that you know what Paul says about a small squad is is actually you know I agree with that maybe there's a bit of fatigue in there that they're getting stretched but you know I do think that, maybe there's a bit of fatigue in there, they're getting stretched. But I do think that you can look at situational, we can sort of overthink things.

And if you're not looking at Forrest at this moment in time, they've just got to look at this as a blip. Newcastle, I mean, you can look at them and they lost, I was at the game, Manchester City wiped the floor with them. And then they had to bounce back. They did. Forrest gave them a real run for the money in the second half, didn't they? And that's the way I'd look at it.

I'd still think 47 points, you know, there's a good little gap there. And you can listen to Nuno Espirito Santo after the game. I don't think too many times this season have I heard him as frustrated as he was against Newcastle and I think the players will still have the confidence where they can certainly bounce back. Where did you have Chelsea on your end of season? I had them as fifth. Did you?

OK. Their next two games are Gimmie's. Southampton at home. We could beat Southampton if we put a kit on. And then Leicester who are absolutely hopeless. The Optus Supercomputer has used obviously similar calculations and data methods as Chris and has Chelsea with just over a 25% chance of making the top four and just under 45% chance of making the top five. But Paul Robinson, since Christmas,

the list of teams that they have beaten, Morecambe, Wolves and West Ham, and that's it. All at Stamford Bridge. And there would be an argument that they were a little bit lucky against West Ham last time out on a Monday night. Why? I think there's a lot being made about the drop

in form of Cole Palmer with his goal involvements, his lack of goals, his lack of assists, but then you actually look at the team, you need more from the team. I agree with Chris, I think the next two games we'll put them back on track and with that the confidence will grow. The Europa Conference League has almost been, not a non-event for them this year, but either they shouldn't be in the competition or they should be in a better competition than that. It's been a gimme for them hasn't it? I mean they've been too strong in that.

He plays another team Paul. He does, he's got another, hasn't it? I mean, they've been too strong in that. He plays another team, Paul, hasn't he? He does, he's got another squad, hasn't he? He's got another squad of players. And I think the only thing for me, looking at Chelsea, Mark, and I know we've spoke about this on a Saturday, I look at Chelsea and I look at Enzo Maresca, you look at his record at Leicester last season,

there were 17 points clear at the top of the championship at the turn of the year. And I may be proved wrong, but you look at the demands he puts on his side, that Leicester team that were at the top of the championship, they surrendered a 17-point lead, by the end of April they were third. Leeds and I can't remember where else, Burnley, I think it was somebody else went above them and they went to third.

So whether that's a trait with his team, there is that drop off after Christmas in the new year, but the same thing at the moment is happening at Chelsea as what happened with Leicester just after Christmas. It may be a complete coincidence. It'd help if they had a goalkeeper who could actually make saves. I mean the gold Jorgensen let in against Aston Villa, dear me, and I think I said on, was it, we talked about Chelsea last Monday, you know, the week previous, you talked about Sanchez and Jorgensen and they both have their deficiencies, they lack a centre forward, don't they? Chelsea and that's been an issue. So, look, I think

with, you know, you look at the next couple of fixtures and that's a real opportunity for them to get back on track. But Cole Palmer, you know, the chance he had against Aston Villa, you would have expected him to gobble that up a couple of months ago, but they've been too reliant on him and that's been an issue. You can look at the goalkeepers, you can look at Cole Palmer, you can look at the strikers. The player they seem to perform much better as a squad with when he is in the team is Lavia and when Lavia is missing that midfield balance seems slightly askew and they struggle and since the turn of the year he managed,

he played in the FA Cup win over Morecambe and he played in the draw with Bournemouth but he's been missing since. His presence in midfield, his first real run as a Chelsea player I think, coincided with that massive upsurge in form, what, kind of been between November and December when they suddenly looked not quite out of nowhere, but probably unexpectedly like title contenders. And I suppose given the number of players they've brought in over the last two years, it's probably inevitable that you're going to find that one or two, maybe unexpectedly, are central to what you're trying to do and that they're the ones who really

clicked with their, whether it's the partnerships in midfield or defence or whatever. Lavier looks like he's central to it, partly because of the fact that he frees Alpenzo Fernandes a little bit to be a more offensive presence. But I think with Chelsea, it just feels like there's still, it's an ongoing process of figuring out which bits, how all of these hydrate ingredients they've bought kind of fit together. And I think they're still in the process of doing that. And the problem with the Premier League is

that you don't get a huge amount of time to kind of put the plane together while you're trying to fly it. That's the issue that you can go to Villa and you will be, your weaknesses will be after six months, pitted apart in the kind of in the flow of the game and Chelsea still look like they're learning, they're trying to learn what they're doing. I take Paul's point about Maresca's Leicester falling apart, or not falling apart, but struggling after Christmas. It probably isn't a coincidence the same things

happen because although he's got quite a big squad squad he's relied on the same core of players, certainly in the league. And it looks to me like they're not quite the finished article, they look like a team full of young players, which is what they are. Do you think Newcastle are still figuring things out, Chris? I think Newcastle are short in squad depth, that's what I think. I think they're figuring things out. I think that they seem to be a side which are pretty stretched, a squad which are pretty stretched and maybe one of those teams suffering from fatigue. I think they're a brilliant watch. I love watching Eddie Howe's team play. he always has a positive approach. Tony said this side is either brilliant or awful with no in between.

The first half we blew Forrest away, we were unplayable, the second half was abysmal. Yeah, and I think that is fatigue. You look at Newcastle's transfer activity, I should say lack of transfer activity, and of course there are reasons for that, but I suspect it's physical and mental fatigue, all things being equal. They're still in a pretty good position in the FA Cup, Carabao Cup final. There's a lot to look forward to, but you don't quite know what you're going to get week in and week out.

Even as the weekend suggested, brilliant first half and then fell away in the second half. We're going to move on to talking about France next and particularly what's an interesting couple of days it's been for the Olympique Marseille president Pablo Longoria who after Saturday's defeat to Auxerre told broadcasters, this is corruption. I've never seen anything like it. You can write it down. Pablo Longoria says it's corruption. Everything has been organized. It's planned. It's rigged. If OM has a proposal for the Super League, we'll leave straight

away. Now today Longoria released a statement apologising. A club president cannot behave like that. Everyone explained to me clearly the meaning of the word corruption in French because in Spanish it has a broader meaning. I want to say that there is no corruption in French football. I mean we're going to bring Max Bira, a French football journalist, into this. Rory, is there a... do you know? I'll come to you first. Is there a difference in the meaning of corruption in French and

Spanish? My Spanish is better than my French. Yeah. I don't think so. I think it means... I mean, it's corruption in Spanish. I think it's corruption in French and it's corruption in English and I think they all mean the same thing. Would he be right, Matt? I think Rory is spot on, I'm not great at Spanish. It reminds me a bit of what we had in England earlier this season when Arteta called a referee a disgrace and afterwards he said no, Disgracia in Spanish is a slightly different meaning

and he got out of it like that and it looks like Longoria is trying to get out of this on on on a linguistic sort of detail but just to bring a bit more detail to what you said Mark it wasn't so much that he was saying this to broadcasters it was after a Marseille player had been sent off he left his seat in the stand and He had a massive hissy fit basically. He went up the tunnel and there's a camera in the tunnel that captured this and he's walking up and down just cursing basically to anybody who would listen saying this is a disgrace, it's corruption, it's you know and he actually said corruption in I think three languages so you know he is very

good linguistically so you know I don't think that defence is going to hold much water. And it was absolutely astonishing. And the French referees all came out, because most of the games in France were the following day, and they all came out and said, listen, we are standing firm behind Jeremy Stenat, who was the referee for Auxerre Marseille. They've crossed the line. When you talk about corruption, you're talking about our integrity and we are, we're pressing charges against Marseille, against Pablo Longoria. And yeah, I mean, it's been pretty serious and reports afterwards emerging that Jeremy Stinnat had his car vandalised, his wife's car vandalised. And another referee said that his house, Jeremy Stinnat's house was broken into as well on Saturday. So there's an awful lot that has gone on. And what is also incredible, Mark, is that Jeremy Stinna didn't really get

anything wrong, I don't think, on Saturday night. He sent a Marseille player off, Derek Cornelius, for a second yellow card that I don't think there can be any complaints about. He didn't give Marseille a penalty, one incident that maybe it could have been given but there was nothing blatant about it. So Pablo Longoria has, I think, done himself and done Marseille a disservice by coming out in such an emphatic fashion. This is not done and dusted then, is it, given the referees' bodies or the referees' unions' anger here? And could it snowball? It's certainly not an isolated incident. I mean Longoria's had a few episodes sort of similar. He's not accused the referees of corruption but you know it is something that goes on quite a lot

in France. I think referees are put under considerable pressure by club presidents, sporting directors, by managers and And of course, you know, it happens in the Premier League and it happens, you know, in most leagues, I imagine. And yeah, there, you know, this is all over the papers. This is, I think Longoria is going to be hit with a massive suspension. And what a lot of people say, and I think this is completely right is that, you know, it's setting the worst example possible at the highest level. Yeah, you know, I've, I've, I've, I've done a little bit of coaching with my local club. I think I'm a similar level coach to Rory.

I know he's done a bit as well. But you see, no, seriously, you see the way that people think they can talk to referees, whether it's parents, whether it's kids. And I think at some point, a stand needs to be taken, something needs to happen. And I'm not blaming all of this on Pablo Longoria, it's a widespread thing but Saturday hasn't helped.

But it's of a piece with stuff that's happening across Europe and it is genuinely worrying. Matt is completely right, I don't think any country is immune to this but I don't think it's this extreme in England yet but you have, Real Madrid have launched the most improbable war on referees you could ever imagine where they are claiming that they, Real Madrid have launched the most improbable war on referees you could ever imagine where they are claiming that they, Real Madrid, are the victims of a conspiracy by the referees which is, I mean it's just nuts. Yeah I think Ibrahimovic came out who's now kind of executive president or something of AC Milan came out after they had a controversial red card against Empoli a couple of weeks

ago and basically called for an inquiry into how Milan games are refereed and obviously as you alluded to earlier chapters you've got Fenerbahce Galatasaray being played this evening with a Slovenian referee because neither Fener or Galat will accept that Turkish referees can be impartial and that's something that happens all the time in both Turkey and Greece where the club presidents will just say well that one's been bought, that one's fit, that one hates us, no one believes anything. And what you end up with, and it's genuinely dangerous, I think existentially dangerous for football as a sport, is where if there is no perception that the results are valid, because people believe, genuinely believe,

or are led to believe that there is some form of unfair play, some sort of malfeasance going on, then the sport itself, and we should all remember that this is a sport, it is not a compulsory activity, we don't have to do any of this, people start to question the point of it. And it's really dangerous that you have figures like Longoria, like Ibrahimović, like the entire kind of edifice of Real Madrid,

who were toying with this stuff just to throw some red meat to their base. It's really dangerous and there's a point at which football as a whole kind of has to get a hold of itself and say look, there are issues with the quality of refereeing, there are issues around VAR, there are issues with various things. Buteing there are issues around VAR there are issues with various things but if we wonder about just calling people corrupt all the time whatever it means in Spanish then we're doing a lot of damage to the product itself. Where does it stop though? I mean we saw we talked about the referees in Turkey there was a team that was it last

week they walked off a penalty was given against them the manager hauled the team off after 20 minutes and the game the game got abandoned So at what point are we bringing referees into question and giving the power back to the clubs, the players and the managers? It's not as if the referees get together on a Thursday night and say, right, we're going to do it this way this weekend, is it? Maybe one or two individuals could be questioned as has been proved over time. That was Adana Dumispor who walked off the pitch and abandoned the match with Galatasaray earlier this month in protest at the penalty awarded. And you ask where it's going to stop.

And interestingly, this evening, so we talk about Zlako Vincic officiating Fenerbahce Galatasaray this evening, or Trabzon Spor tonight have demanded that the same referee now officiate their remaining matches against Fenerbahce and Galatasaray this season. So who's in charge then? Well, yeah, but their statement is as follows. And you know what, Rory, you can see the logic behind this, to be fair to, in order to prevent mistakes that could directly affect the outcome of critical matches,

we request that Slavko Vincic, who we believe will display an experienced and most importantly fair management, be assigned in the away matches against Fenerbahce and the home matches against Galatasaray. We invite the Turkish Football Federation to take the necessary steps for the fair management of football and to take responsibility to ensure that these critical matches are managed in accordance with the spirit of the sport. And so it begins. And the place where it ends is that there are only 365 football matches taking place each year worldwide, all of them officiated by Slavko Vincic.

He is the only honourable man left. No, it's insane. There is, and I wrote about Turkish football, this issue in Turkish football a long long a lot four years ago or something Because they'd worked themselves. I forget what the trigger was then they had and obviously chapters I realized I have form for being anti-turtish football. I'm really not anti-turtish football But they taught themselves into a problem where the where the big three in Istanbul Refused to accept basically refused to accept the idea they might lose games and they blame the referees and then Trabzon Sport who are from Trabzon which

is on the Black Sea coast and feel they feel like they are the victims of all three of the bid three in Istanbul to be honest quite often with good reason they felt that they were being persecuted no one believes anything everyone feels that there is this kind of, almost like this echo of that deep state conspiracy but against them in football, and no one kind of believes in the legitimacy of the competition and I think you have that issue, yeah, not only on a practical level like how is Slavkovich going to referee all of these football matches, what about Slovenian football which presumably also wants to have quite good referees, but you have this kind of drip-drip effect eroding the confidence in the integrity of the competition, because you can just say, well look, unless

it's refereed by this one Slovenian guy, then it's probably not legitimate. It's an incredibly dangerous precedent to set and I'm surprised people are doing it. Are they calling for foreign refs in France then, Matt? What I wanted to say is I find it really interesting as an English person who's been living in France for a long time and keeps a close eye on what goes on back in England in the Premier League and everything that's said around it. The feeling I get is that everybody thinks that they have the worst referees in their country and that it's better abroad. And I see like when a French

referee, Clement Turpin, is regarded as the number one in France, when he oversees a champions league game and a lot of people in England will say, oh, you know, why can't we get referees like this? He's so sensible and there are never any problems. He's hated over here because he's, you know, given a penalty against Marseille or given a penalty against PSG, or whatever. So I just think it's so hard to, to judge also, because English referees are different French referees, no question about that. But they also that they have different instructions from their bosses to English referees. And we don't know,

necessarily what those instructions are. And so, you know, in France, the commentators will always say, oh, you know, you'd get away with that in England, or, you know, there's still this kind of perception that, you know, in France, the commentators will always say, oh, you know, you'd get away with that in England or, you know, there's still this kind of perception that, you know, the French referees are very fussy and the English referees let things go. But I don't think it's necessarily the case. I just think that they're basically following slightly different instructions and different rules. And ultimately, it's such a partisan sport that, you know, in your country, you're always going to be upset with some referees. Matt, thank you very much for being with us.

Matt Spear with us, French football journalist. Just a final one on this. Is the answer that every league has referees from a different country, Chris? Yeah, it seems that there would be a greater acceptance. No, it does. I think it's a really interesting discussion and what's going on in Turkey, Galatasaray, Fenerbahce and then other clubs saying, well, if it's good enough for them, then it's good enough for us. I totally, totally get that. But I do think the wider point, which Paul made and Rory made about it filtering

down into the lower levels of the game and grassroots, there's a huge decline in referees at the grassroots level and it does have an impact. Finally, I'm just thinking Rory, if you go over as a group, if you and me went over to be referee and assistant referee of Fenerbahce Galatasaray, we just referee it and then get on a plane back to the north of England. They can say whatever they want after that. It's never going to get to us. Well I don't know Chappers. I mean I know you've come off most of no social media but I don't know I think I think they'd find you if you gave a decision they didn't like.

I think we're getting to a situation. The whole thing is it's bananas and everyone I don't know I mean it's a stupid thing to say really there's no way it can happen but people need to get a grip of themselves because you are actively damaging the sport and it's one thing for fans to do it in the heat of the moment and the passion that kind of the game inspires but for institutions that comes with responsibility. You don't get to say what Longoria said and then go oh it means something different in Spanish, it means I like him in Spanish different word. Sorry languages that that doesn't flights not good enough and we have a responsibility We haven't got a big enough pool of world-class referees that every league can just dip in and out of we haven't got enough referees

For that granted that the best should referee the best but there aren't enough of them Mark you're right that that'll be the way forward what you said wait and see foreign referees. Oh right not me and Rory refereeing for the Apache Galatasaray. Chapters just to be clear I do not want to do that. Rory, Paul good to see you thank you Chris as well enjoy the enjoy the iBrox bars to get some research later. I thought we've lost him. No you're back. Straight over now. Good excellent right thank you very much Thought we'd lost him. No, you're back. Straight over now. Good, excellent. Right, thank you very much.