Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Dowman's Delight, Manchester United's Climb and Chelsea's Charges

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Russell Martin join Mark Chapman to discuss Arsenal edging closer to the Premier League title with a two-goal win over Everton as Max Dowman became the league's youngest ever goal scorer. They discuss Manchester United's improvements under Michael Carrick, Bruno Fernandes' excellent form and Casemiro's impact on the squad.  Russell Martin reflects on his time in management with Southampton and Rangers, and predicts who will win the Scottish Premiership title. Plus, BBC Sport’s Football Issues correspondent Dale Johnson discusses Chelsea's record fine and suspended transfer ban.Timecodes: 2:30 Max Dowman 16:26 Manchester United 24:20 Scottish Premiership 34:40 Russell Martin 42:45 Chelsea5 Live UEFA Champions League commentaries this week: Tuesday 17th March - 8pm - Manchester City v Real Madrid - 5 Live Tuesday 17th March - 8pm - Arsenal v Bayer Leverkusen - 5 Sports Extra Wednesday 18th March - 5:30pm - Barcelona v Newcastle United - 5 Live Wednesday 18th March - 8pm - Liverpool v Galatasaray - 5 Live

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Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Russell Martin. And when we spoke about the possibility of you come in and doing some radio, when I said, would you come on the Monday nightclub? I was most definitely I expect you to say no because of one person in particular. But you, and don't mean, well, not Rory. You never know. And you said yes, so welcome. Thank you very much for coming on.

I like Chris. He's a good guy. I don't know why he'd think Chappas would think we'd have a problem, Chris, but I'm very happy to be here. Yeah, that's amazing for you, Mark, to actually think that would be the case. What's wrong with me?

You tell me, what is wrong with me? We don't have to have a whole new show. I think it's me, Mike. I think it's me, it's not. It's definitely him. The other thing was, he said to me, earlier, Chris, he said, if I asked Russell any questions, he said, I don't want to come across like, and then I can't say the word that he said, I don't want to come across like an idiot. So my first response is, well, it hasn't really bothered you for the last decade.

The second point being, so we've got a system, Rory, that if he is coming across like an idiot, I have to, I have to WhatsApp him. Okay. Okay, so feel free to follow the same method if you'd like to. I mean I like to offer Chris like a running critique of his performance in every show anyway to be honest that seems wise we should probably have done that before Chapters today

I know yeah I don't know why we haven't come up with that before do you go back to Norwich days with him then he was there way before yeah no yeah way before you you're reminded of his legacy everywhere he's got pictures up in the wall

in the stadium the training ground I think it might even have a brick actually you're in the Hall of Fame Chris yeah yeah I'm not I'll play 300 times I'm not No. Captain for six of them, but still not. Yeah.

That's amazing. Well, we'll sort that out. No, I'm fine with it. I'm over it. I'm over it a long time ago, but it's good. How many times did you play for Norwich? 130 odd. Oh, right.

Did you captain them? No. You have been stuffed there, haven't you? Well, he was much better than I. Oh, yeah. Right. Well, this is all lovely, isn't it, at the moment? We have a lot to get through

Manchester United's midfield. What's going on at Chelsea. We will deal with that. You may have just heard that in the news, but we'll look at Chelsea both on and off the field as well. We'll look at the title race in Scotland. We'll talk to Russell exactly about what he is up to at the moment and what his plans are going forward. And we'll keep you up to date with the football

that is going on this evening. And we'll look ahead to those Champions League games that are coming up this week on 5 live. But we start with Arsenal and with Max Dowman, who rescued Arsenal basically on Saturday tea time and by the end of the weekend it'd help them go nine points clear at the top of the table. Do you think it's the kind of thing that can change a feeling around the place? I think so, watching the celebrations at the end.

I think the manner of the win as well. But then the fact that such a young guy is such a brilliant story, it's just like a release. You could feel it from their players, from their fans, because they have been edgy the last. And I think also the Man City result afterwards helps as well. I think there will be a completely different feeling this week. But again, it can change the mentality again now

because it is theirs to lose. I think everyone would be in agreement with that. But it's the top top play, the top young talent, and the goal was brilliant. It was a brilliant way to finish the game. So I think they'll be feeling very good about themselves this week. Because I don't know, you tell me, Chris,

would it have been different if he'd have, say, brought Gabriel Jesus on? and it had been rescued in that way. I mean, there would still be euphoria, but I wonder if this euphoria times 10. Yeah, but fans, as Russell said, fans love that. The Arsenal fans love that, you know, one of their own through the academy. And, you know, what was sort of not fascinating about the whole thing,

well, what was, you know, nice about the whole thing, is that, you know, he was thrown on the pitch on merit. It wasn't one where you often, managers give young players an opportunity to get a pat on the back and say, well, we're developing our players. We're trying to do it the right way as a club. Arsenal are in the thick of a title race. And he has the faith on a young 16-year-old to throw him on it and make a difference. So they're on merit, made the difference. And yeah, as Russell said, then, the Manchester City result. I mean, it looks like as Arsenal's title and people will remember, you know, Saturday

for what happened to Max Stairman. Given the pressure, given the situation, with your managerial hat on, how impressive a decision is that from Mikhail Ateta? Look, I know he's talented, but it's nil-nil in a title race, and there are more experienced players there? I think it shows how secure the manager is in his position,

where he sits in the club, where the team is at, where he feels the team is at. But also it was so tense. You could feel it just watching it on the TV that actually bringing someone on with, it's like a win-win for Max Town. He gets more minutes on the pitch. The game was how it was.

So see the game out, brilliant, have a contribution like he did, which would be iconic, I'm pretty sure, like Chris just said, it would be one of the moments of the season for Arsenal if they become champions. So I think the position he's in, being there, it seems so brave. But when you see him every day

and you hear Artetta talk about him after in a talented possess. And also that when the players are so young, it's the same as Rio watching in for Liverpool yesterday. When they're so young, there's no scar tissue. So he can come on and just play free, play with freedom in the position Arsenal we're in. So actually, I think it's brilliant management,

but probably less risk than people would associate it at the time. I don't think Mark Russell, he would have thought about his age in that moment because of the fact that, you know, he would have trained a lot of times with the first team. He would have known what talent is. Well, he's a kind of first team squad player, isn't he? really.

Yeah, so his attributes and his mentality at that point, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's nothing about age. You wouldn't have looked at him and thought, oh, he's just 60. You know, that didn't come into playing his thought process. He was simply thinking about a spark which could change the game, and that's what he did. I mean, Joe Hart said on match of the day,

Artetra is bringing him on because he believes he is going to change the game. He's not in this to win awards or say, I was the one to bring Max Damman on. he couldn't care less if he was 16 or 66 he was bringing him on to win the game at which point Kelly said to him if he was 66 he wouldn't be being brought on to win the game which was a which was a fair which was a very fair point

just that sense of having a different story other than just the you know that kind of grind to get to the title it's now kind of there's something about you having a young player that fills a fan base with excitement regardless and when it's someone as talented as downman that is that is kind of magnified But the other thing I think that needs to be said is that I think Artetta's handled him really, really well.

You know, they gave him that first. It's almost like they confronted the hype around him in the summer. And he was in a couple of match day squads and he played a couple of games and he kind of, they got that out of the system almost. And then he had, obviously, there's been an injury, but Artetta's taken it quite slow since then. And I think it's been quite smart.

Which means? What do you mean by that? I think when you've got a player, I mean, I first heard Max Downman's name and Chris and Russell, you probably would have been quicker than me. But his name's been around for a couple. couple of years. Like people have been saying that

asked I've got a kid in the system for a long time. And I think the fan base would probably expecting this to be the year that he would come through and then obviously he's kind of in the they know he's training with the first team squad and you then hear stories or suggestions that the players themselves are really impressed by his ability. I think it creates this kind of buzz

around him which you can either shrink away from a little bit and think, okay, we need to protect him from this entirely. Or you can kind of expose him to it in stages, because he doesn't have to confront it at some point. And I think Aslove handled that really smartly, so that now he's had chance to develop physically a bit. He'll have been training with the first thing for about nine months now. And I think that that means that when he does kind of start to get minutes in the Premier League,

you end up with a player who's maybe much more ready for it than it would have been had they thrown him in straight away, or if they'd waited too much longer. I don't necessarily agree with that, because it's, you know, you're sort of saying, well, you know, they blooded him earlier on in games and were waiting for this moment. I suspect it was just a case that it felt like the right time. But, you know, the right time could have been three months ago. Had that, you know, had Mikhail Artecda seen it that way. I don't necessarily think that, you know, they waited for this particular moment.

And that was part of the plan. I think, you know, from Mikhail Artecda's position, he's just thinking about winning games and the best way to, you know, to win games. and the biggest influence off the bench in that moment, you know, we're going to throw him on and see what he does. No, but the interesting point, I suppose, that Rory makes is a lot of clubs will have a kid in their academy or under 18s or under 21s that there is a buzz about.

Doesn't matter whether you're in the Premier League, the Scottish Premiership, Championship, maybe League 1. And Michael Carrott was asked about one of the kids in the Manchester United youth, team, pre-match, I think, or in the build-up to the Aston Villa game. It's how the club as a whole deals with that buzz. I mean, you must have gone into virtually every club you've been at and been told on the day you arrived. There's a kid in the academy.

Yeah, we had it with Tyler Dibbonne in Southampton, just like a recent example for us. So for the first year I was there, we were told he's nearly ready. He's physically, he's fantastic. He's an excellent player. So he trained with us pretty much every day. Sam Ammo now is at Strasbourg as well, the same.

Jaden McGomer actually took to us. the Rangers with me were training, they were 16, all of them. But it is about the right time. And with Tyler, we just always felt Samamo actually played some games with us early on, did really well. And then it's about the depth of the squad. It's about the players who play in their position. You can be really unlucky as a young player.

If you're a really exceptional talent, but there's no pathway for you because the two players they have in your position are outstanding. It all depends. So much of it is circumstantial. But like Chris said earlier, you have to be ready to take your opportunity. So there are boxes they'll be looking to ticker. Physically, can you do it?

and at 16 is really difficult. So training with the first team from the age of 15, 16 helps a lot because you get a bit more used to the speed. Technically, tactically, tactically there will always be stuff as a young lad. You need to improve, but technically you're there for the reason

they believe you can train with the first team so that's there. But it always comes down to the mentality and the psychology of the player, the young player. Can they deal with being in the line at a club like Arsenal? For us with Tyler,

it was can he deal playing in the team needs to win to get promoted. So we played him in the cup games because we felt the options we had for the league. but it was always with the plan of next year Tyler's going to be one of the main people. Then people have to trust you. So I'm sure that's been the case with Max. There'll be a plan, but then to stick to a plan, and it's never a straight line with young players.

There'll be moments where it fluctuates, maybe fatigue, injuries, you know, all this stuff comes into it. But it is about taking your opportunity at that moment, and he did the other day, and it was brilliant. Manchester United, a third, six points clear of sixth after they beat Aston Villa, 3-1. yesterday. Casamiro got the opener. Bruno Fernandez now has 16 Premier League assists for the season. And if you throw in Cobby Mayno as well, that's a balanced Manchester United midfield, isn't it? Chris? Yes, it's balanced. I don't think there's any... I think we all expected when Bruno Fernandez was played in his best position that naturally should get the best out of him. and that's what has happened. I mean, it is such a staggering, you know, thinking how Ruben Ambrin played him

and, you know, as one over two in the central midfield area. And now he's, you know, playing up one, has that insurance of Casamiro and Manu behind him, that, you know, he's influencing games as we all expected him to. I think there is a nice natural balance to this United Midfield. Carrick has found amazing success in putting players in positions that they're used to and that they like and where he can get the best. out of them. He's made it look

quite simple. I'm sure it isn't, but he's made it look that way. Has he? Definitely. Definitely. So there's more balance, as Chris said, Bruno's actually playing in a position where he could affect games now and he has more of a free role. Cobbimae and Casamira are playing much closer together now. So there's

way more like a central progression with the ball. And it's something that Michael and his mid-as-rude were very good at was overload in midfield, playing trying to hurt teams through the middle of pitch. Cobbri Mano is very progressive. Casamira, the same. and Bruno roams a little bit and then can join him with a press where he's much freer to go and actually affect the opposition again. I still think sometimes the two of them get left alone a little bit when Bruno does jump and go and press,

they can get left alone out of possession. But in possession with the ball, the team looks so much more balanced. And I think Cobbio, actually, every week now, I see him getting more confident, playing his way back in, being a bit more progressive. He can run past players with a ball. But they're always looking now. That's the difference. I think they're always looking.

And before there was two of them in the middle of pitch, whoever it was, and very often just look completely like the gap between the middle of the pitch for them and the rest of the team was huge and now just much more solid and much more fluid. So when you look at it tactically like that is that was Casimir hung out to dry a little bit?

Yeah I think so if you look at what he brings and the experience and what, but there are going to be limitations physically out of possession a lot for sure so when he is playing it's just one over two is very difficult. Now I actually mind you with Ahmad and Kuna as well have five players in the middle of the pitch

a lot. They roll inside and really try and overload. So by default, when you lose the ball, there's a lot more players around Casamira than there were before, way more. So one, they control the ball a bit more, I think they're better with it. And now out of possession, they have a few more bodies around it that help protect those guys

for sure. What would you do, Chris, with Casamiro going forward? Because that seems to be the big debate at the moment. Yeah, I don't really get the debate, really. I think he's, I think that under Amram, he was really exposed. I think under Carrick,

I think all his numbers have improved. His performance level has improved under Carrick, but so was the Manchester United team. But I think this is a bit of sentimental guff as much as anything. You know, he's done okay. But I do think he's had his day. You know, I do. And if Manchester United want to really,

really move forward, you know, as a club. Casamiro isn't the future, you know, for all that. You know, he's just absolutely not. He's been a great player, you know, he'll give you the right arm to have a career like him. But, you know, he's just, it comes to us all. He just doesn't have the, you know, the legs which he once had. And if Manchester United wants to move to that next level, and they're doing pretty, you know, they're doing okay under Michael Carrick with Casamira and the team.

but yeah, he's not for next season. I just think, yeah, on the pitch, definitely, his role will probably reduce and become smaller, it should do at his age. But with Manchester United for years now, we've been talking about a lack of leadership, lack of cultural, like, architects, if you like, strengthen that.

So if they see huge value in him there to help the young players like Cobby Manor and guys like that, the players that are going to come through, so have a lot of talent of young players, then maybe he's worth keeping around, but then maybe he's not very happy with that role. Maybe he wants to go and enjoy the sun somewhere and finish it. He doesn't want to be in Rainier,

in Manchester all the time the career is at and not playing every week so there's so much that comes into it I think you make decisions as a club is he going to help us

on the pitch a huge amount next year if he's not can he help us off it but who knows what the discussions have been he probably wouldn't want

to be sort of or he'd want 350,000 pounds a week or something like that and just to be good in the dressing room yeah it's good money

for a cheerleader I don't I don't I don't they'd pay that well I won't say I won't say anything sarcastic there. Go on, Rory.

I was going to say, I think the other thing that you have to fact with Casamira is that this season, the way it's panned out with United being out of both Cups and not in Europe, is ideal for a player of his age. They're not playing that frequently. I think was it 11 days before this game? Then they've got Bournemouth on Friday, and they've got another big long break. It will be different next season when they're in the Champions League

and hopefully they go further in both domestic cups. But then I do think Russell's right that it's one of those where you wonder if they might say to him, look, is there a point where the money and the game time is right because he would be a valuable person to have around the club? It might be that he thinks, right, this is my last chance to move. I can go to Saudi. I can go to MLS.

I can go, you know, wherever it might be, Italy, and get a big contract or, you know, a big-ish contract. And that is, you know, enjoy the sunshine, be a bit warmer, kind of have another stage to my career. That makes perfect sense. That's his prerogative. But I think United would be losing something, if Casamiro is allowed to walk away at the end of the season

and I can see why they would want to maybe keep them around now more than they did maybe six months ago. I think Gary Neville said yesterday, Russell, that he doesn't think he should be kept on and moved on, but that United are going to need at least two more midfielders this summer to bring in, in terms of an enforcer type, all-action type, and also in terms of a creative type.

Definitely, I'd agree with that completely. I think they've got, One of the best players in the Premier League in Bruno Fernandez. I really believe that. I think, and considering he's not played in what you would regard as a top team for the last few years, we know it's a top club. They haven't performed like a top team, but his ability and his performance level and his consistency levels, and he's just an outstanding player.

And they need more like that. They need for sure at least to. If you look at the midfield, the way they want to play, maybe they'll go somewhere else in terms of the manager and stuff like that. But they'll need to really compete. They need some more depth than they've. got. Do you think he's got the credit he has deserved over the years, Bruno Fernandez? And when you've played against him, when your teams have played against him, how have you set up to deal with him?

He's, so he's one, like, you hate playing against him. He's always in the refs here. He's screaming and shouting everyone, but I think he's one of them you loving your team. Like, he's a winner, he's a fighter, he'll take the ball anywhere. I think that's the best bit about him. You can give him the ball anywhere and he'll look after it, or he'll want the ball, regardless of the situation. So I think he'll leads in a very different way to like your archetypal leader. He leads by example. He wants the ball.

He wants to make things happen. I think we've just discussed their midfield day and we really didn't speak about how good he was. It was about Casamiro and Cobby Mano coming back, but he is an outstanding player. And I'm sure he'll want to see outstanding players be brought in and around him that can feed him a ball more often. The one final thing in all of this

is that Michael Carrick has basically played the same team ever since taking over. There's been the odd change because of injury. has been either Sesco in or Ahmad in, his changes to every starting 11 per game

is under 1 on average, obviously, and Amarims was over 2 on average. I suppose you would say, would you, that he has the luxury

at the moment of being able to keep a settled team because the games are not few and far between, but it's one a week. I think, yeah, slightly different circumstances, but also cohesion is so important.

It never felt really under Rubin, the team didn't feel like the relationships had built. There was a lot of change. There was people playing or a formation and the system that was stuck to

regardless of the personnel and how much it suited the personnel. So he's playing a formation that suits the personnel much better. He's got people playing in their positions and actually giving people time to build some relationships which only helps.

If you think about Man City this year, the amount of change their team has had new players trying to integrate them. That's definitely hurt the team in terms of cohesion and relationships and consistency. Liverpool is exactly the same.

And then you look at teams like Villa who, when their strongest 11 is out, they've played together a long time. But then you take out a couple of players of injury, Telemans, when John McGinn doesn't play, they're not quite the same because they haven't got the depth of a man's city or a Liverpool. But cohesion is so, I think, undervalued

and actually underestimated. And probably is not as easily, like, evidenced or tangible for people outside of the club. So in the club, you get scores based on relationships and how productive, certain people are playing together or next-rich-rower, how many points you've got when certain players are playing in the team together. So all of that is at your disposal.

You'd have that, would you? If you, like, I don't know, if you clicked right back and right centre-half, if they, every time they'd play, you would... I've always asked for it, yeah, exactly. It's important to understand because your eyes and your bias can sometimes lie to you. So I think it's a head coach. It's really important to have all of the data and the evidence you can possibly must. So, like, if you look at centre-half partnerships throughout the years

and how important they've been to teams and the number six, right, and now the two midfielders at Manchester United, how close they play together and all of this, it's so important. And actually, like when I look back at recently when I went to Rangers, expecting, like, if we did a cohesion score there,

it would have been really, really low because so many new players, a new style of play, people haven't played together very much, and four weeks into a pre-season we had to play in the Champions League qualifier. So it's really difficult to build like a level of cohesion and understanding within that.

So Michael's done that. that and a lot of it comes down to the system as well. He's gone, this is how we're going to play. This is what we're looking for. And as a coach, when you have clarity in what you're looking for, it's much easier than to stick with something and actually build some relationships.

I find that really is on the cohesion thing. Can that also drive you mad the other way? So let's say you took, for arguments sake, the United Cohesion here, and you took Bruno and looked at his cohesion. Bruno's a wrong example because he's obviously the United's talisman. But I don't know, you looked at it.

a midfielder and his relationship with the other two midfielders behind him and that's all great but then you look further forward and his relationship with your number one striker is nowhere near as good but it might be better with your number two striker you could drive yourself mad depending on where you're

looking on the cohesion yeah and then it's circumstantial because maybe the number two striker comes on when the number one striker's beating up the defender's number two striker scores he's on for 10 minutes and you're chasing the game so I think it's never to be led by it but to be informed enough to be able to make decision. Also, certain players, like, I would have a feeling about someone being more

effective on the left, but actually, they're better on the right side than they're on the left, but they're a bit more exciting playing. We had a winger, a right-fitted wing at one of my clubs where I fought on the left, he looked so dangerous on the right, it was less effective. And then we looked at the day, it was like way more productive on the right side. It just doesn't go past people as much because he wants to cross earlier, you know, so it's interesting. So I think that to inform you, and also you need to know what you're looking for. Maybe Ruben would judge Fernandez's performance way different. to Michael Wood. What's important to one manager is very different to another. So I think

you have to be really clear on what you measure in performance. From a small village on the banks of the River Nile. Everybody called me Mohammed, but you know, short name or nickname, they call me more. To the biggest stages of world football. Salah is more than just a player. He's an icon, a symbol, a king. Mohamed Salah represents a dream for Egyptian, for Muslims, for Africans. More than just a football player, he gave us hope. I'm Kelly Kate. This is Sporting Giants, Mo Sala.

Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday Nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast. Russell Martin, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith on the Monday Night Club. Who's going to win the Scottish Premiership title, Chris? I don't know. Not a clue. I said, no, I'm going to stick.

with hearts. I'm going to stick with hearts. They had their blip against Kilmarnock at the weekend. I mean, they can lose to kill Marnock. Hearts didn't start the game particularly well. The reason I'm going to stick with hearts is my sources are telling me

Shanklin's not far away. Lauren Shankland and Cammy Devlin and they've missed Shankland, especially at the top end of the pitch. And I think everybody will beat everybody else from now and to the end of the season, especially after the split. I just think that's going to happen.

If you look at the goal difference with the... I mean, I think Motherwell are out of it now. Celtic beat them at the weekend and then they lost to Dundee the previous week. But the goal difference is all pretty tight. So I'm going to say, yeah, still hearts. Let me give you the table. Heart 63, Celtic 61, Rangers 60. Motherwell now on 53.

There is virtually nothing in the goal difference either. Hearts and Rangers have the same goal difference. Celtic, three worse off. their 24, Hearts and Rangers are 27. I genuinely don't know how you're going to answer this. How do you view it? I don't know. Whatever I say now, we'll get sensationalised tomorrow morning in the Scottish papers.

So I'm going to sit on the fence. What I would say is, I think Derek McKinnis and Hearts have had an amazing season. I think that Celtic fans and Rangers fans will consider themselves very lucky that they're still in with a title chance, considering they both feel they've had really poor seasons. One of them is all my fault, obviously. But apart from that, but I generally think it's such an interesting season. I think the heart's shaking it up a little bit. It's been really good.

I don't know if you agree, Chris, but I think it's good for Scottish football as a whole. When people talking about it way more, Motherwell, the way that they've played and approached it differently under Yens, it's bought a bit of interest and a level of, like, excitement about it. I don't think it's been there for a while. And yeah, people would say that's because the old film haven't quite been at the level they used to be being at, especially psych over the last few years. but the emergence of Motherwell and hearts this season I think it's been really good for the game up there.

Yeah, absolutely. Motherwell was spoken about many times. Their style of play, I mean, even at the weekend against Celtic, the way the game panned out, I mean, Motherwell go to Celtic Park, they have, they edge to the possession, has won all, and then Celtic, it was a penalty and a red card, I do think that when Daysa Mada would have headed the ball in. And Celtic, I mean, the remarkable thing about Celtic, under Mark and O'Neill is they just keep finding a way to win Russell.

And they're not playing good football at all. It's not like a Celtic team of previous seasons where they play teams off the park, dominate possession, dominate every area. It's been a real struggle for them. Which is why it is fascinating. And ranges of sort of, you know, they're not a particularly good watch either,

but they've found a way to get over the line, especially recently. And even the game at the weekend against St. and a porcant mirror and team. Rangers won them up at half time and then it's a heavy weather of it and that's the story of the season which is why it will go down to the wire.

The easy thing for someone down south to say Russell is that the pressure has to be on heart because they've led for so long but that doesn't take into account that the pressure is always on the old firm presumably. Oh yeah, because it's so close and then there's pressure on the old firm always Chris knows this, no matter what the situation,

no matter what the game. But, yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but I do think hearts have less pressure than the other two right now. I think maybe because of the season they've had and they've been up there for so long, people say, I know it's, you know, the pressure is all on them.

But I think they can probably play on the underdog thing from now to the end of the scene. I don't know, maybe Derek's playing it the other way and no, we've been here for a long time, we deserve to be it, so we need to stay here. Also, maybe there's a bit of the psychology of, well, no one expected this apart from us, so we'll keep surprising everyone.

And that's what I meant when the old firm both have a chance to win the league and the fans have been so frustrated and disappointed with their seasons. So it's a really interesting and unique season. And I really don't know which way it's going to go. So I'm not going to, as well as I don't want to be all over the papers in the morning up there. But I just don't know which way it's going to go. I really don't because each week it sort of changes. And like Chris said, no one's really in flow.

There doesn't seem to be a team that's really playing at the peak of their powers. So it's an eight-game season. and it's going to be really, really exciting. I think there's a lot of twists and turns, and you could easily see it going to either one of those teams. Rory, you're looking quizzical? Yeah, that's my natural resting, fair, chapas. Yeah, I think it's, my instance is the same as Russell as alluding to,

which is that you do think, basically, hearts will be under pressure because they've got less experience of being there, that it's, you know, 40 years since anyone not Celtin Rangers won the title, it's even longer for hearts. There'll be nervousness at Timecastle. they know this is an opportunity. But then the pressure that both Celtic and Rangers operate under all of the time is probably just as oppressive in the wrong moments

because both of those clubs now will think, well, we could win this because the other one's not very good. And I still don't know to what extent either and that are really thinking about, well, hearts are the favourites, especially now that the gap has closed, because they regard themselves as favourites. I think, to be slightly careful, I don't want to say anything offensive to Russell about Rangers in any way.

but I wonder whether that kind of applies to I've heard it all, man, you crack on. I'm fine. I'm literally, you can't offend me anymore about this, so it's fine. But Rangers, I wonder whether they've not really don't take that as a challenge, Chris, by the way. By the way, I lost one league game, like everyone, everyone talked, if we lost every game,

we lost one. We didn't win in that, but we lost one. But how many of that Rangers' squad have been in this position? And it'd been in Scotland. Martin O'Neu and Sean Maloney have been there, I've won it between them so many times. and Callan McGregor and the Celtic guys

having had the experience of winning it, I think it could be really, really important. I think that in the championship as well. I still think part of me thinks Ipswich will do it because of the experience of Kieran doing it and the players. What, overhauled Coventry? No, I think that's for the second.

Yeah. Like, I think Midasbury are fantastic and I've enjoyed watching them probably more than anyone in the championship this year. Look at my sidetrack to the championship away from the SPI. No, it was unintentional. But genuinely, I think the experience and Chris will know because he's won more than all of us put together.

But the importance of like when we were in the championship with Norwich the second time after we got relegated, because we had so many players who had done it before, we almost felt like we'll do it. Like we know what it takes. When it comes, the other teams, they'll start feeling it a bit more. And we'll, we've been there, we've done it, we know what it takes. And I think if you have that in your building, which started doing in abundance, maybe, maybe it gives you a little bit of edge, maybe it does.

Maybe, Chris, there's actually less pressure on Martin O'Neill in all of this. Well, I think that's, I think that's the biggest point. Celtic fans, their direction of anger, that will not be in Martin O'Neill's. Whatever happens. As the reason. And from hearts, I think hearts are really difficult to measure because I know it's so easy to just say, well, you know, they haven't been there for 40 years, whatever it is. So, you know, the pressure's off. I don't, I don't necessarily think it is amongst the Hart's fan base.

You see the, you know, the manager Derek McKinness, sort of, you know, in recent weeks, he seems to be getting a bit uptight. So I think that maybe he's feeling the pressure a little bit, but I still think that the hearts all season, they've found a way to win games. You know, they're not a beautiful football team. You know, Derek McKinness teams have never been essentially beautiful, but they are well structured. He knows what he's doing Derek McKinness does it in the way that he sets his team up.

He knows the Scottish League inside out. Danny Roll at Rangers, you know, I think he's had too much to say for himself in recent times. And I think the defeat against Celtic in the Cup was, I know you're shaking your head. I'm just telling you, Danny Roll opened his mouth and we're telling Celtic how they should have played in Europe. and this is coming from a guy whose record in Europe was, you know, was pretty doubt. And I think Rangers fans, actually that's sort of ramped up the pressure on Danny roll, because I think Rangers fans are thinking,

why don't you just keep your mouth shut, Danny? Why are you getting involved in telling Martin O'Neill how he should play? And it's okay, it's okay if you're seeing games through at Ibrox against Celtic and 2-0 up, and they win that. It's okay if you knock Celtic out of the cup, but he didn't. And in many respects, people are thinking, well, Danny Roll's eye has been taken off the ball. So, you know, the pressure sort of ranked up on ranges as well now. Is there a risk that if Celtic do win it, it kind of papers over some fairly glaring cracks?

Yeah, I mean, if Celtic win the league this season, they'd have done it without a centre forward. Think about that. You know, I think Celtic have used five different centre forwards. And, I mean, in recent times, Martin Neal's making a substitution at half time. changing, you know, changing that position. I mean, that's pretty incredible in itself. If you look at the number of goals, I think Celtic were 112 goals last season, something like that.

I don't have anything. They got this, 58, whatever, is this season. You know, numbers-wise, they are massively down to what they were last season. And it's, you know, it's staggering. And there will be, I think, a thought process if Celtic do get over the line this season. I mean, I think they'll be laughing at the opposition, really, because it's been a poor Celtic side in truth. How do you reflect on your time there now, sitting here?

I don't regret anything. I think I've learned a lot. I'll definitely be better for it. I love Glasgow's a city. I love living there. The people face-to-face were fantastic. And I think it was kind of. character building.

It was, so it was really, you know what, it was really difficult for the people around me. So family, friends, genuinely,

like when my kids came up, they couldn't come to the game because of the level of abuse I was receiving at that point and it was quite early on. But like, when you look back at it,

it's, you learn from everything, right? So there's stuff that you would do differently. There's stuff that you would, you would assist on maybe doing the same

and maybe even going even more being even stronger with that. But I think it's probably there was so much change. So I walked into the club at a time of new owners. I'd literally been in there, I think, two weeks when I came in.

New director of football, chief exec, head of performance, new head coach, 14 new players. So I think I, and I tried to stress a lot, that it probably would take some time. So that's my fault because I was in a place where historically and traditionally

you don't really have time. So I don't like, I don't feel bitter about it at all. Do you feel hurt? I'd have loved the time to have built something and I felt that was what the club needed was a bit of that. But the owners decided differently. They made a decision. And also, like, I was frustrated.

I think the biggest thing I am from that is probably frustration. Like there was so many small things that we could have probably done a little bit better and just taking more I should have been a bit more rigid with like formation and certain principles really and I sort of tried to bend and flex to fit the newness of the group

and we had so many young players we brought into the club and it's not excuses we should have done a better job than we did and we should have won more games but we felt like we were going to get somewhere with it but we had so many young players that had just come in and Chris will tell you it's like

it's such a unique environment playing for Rangers or Celtic the level of it's expectation so take people like mani Fernandez from Peterborough for going from Peterborough in league one to Rangers and playing in front of that crowd all of a sudden and and it's a completely different completely different experience and he's flying now yeah and he's been brilliant and you know Kevin fell on Dan Purley myself and we sat down and we wanted to sign we saw the match abuse but we also knew he's he might not play in the first couple of months is maybe take some time to get to that

point Mikey more the same outrageous talent like amazing kid we signed him because he really wanted to be part of that and experience something big and then you get on the pitch the first few games because we just spoke about Max Damon at Spurs. He was the guy that come off the bench

maybe make something happen and then he was coming to Rangers and now you need to be the guy that makes something happen and for us and trying to work out the best way to do that in that team and it's no surprise to me that he's gone and done brilliantly.

So yeah, there's loads of frustration for me as a coach and a manager and a leader but ultimately it's always your fault the manager. So it's my fault. It's my fault I didn't do well enough and you learn from it

and I'll be better for it for sure. How crucial is your choice of next job? You will have, I'm guessing, quite a lot of different criteria to throw into the mix in choosing your next job. I think so, yeah. I've turned a few things down since I left Rangers

and partly because I have to like football, so, it's so quick to move on so your stock can go from so high to so low so quickly. So I think for me, and also probably, I'm pretty much a yes or an Oaks straight away for a club owner or a director of football because of the way I play or I want the team to play.

So some will go, it doesn't fit us, we don't want that. And then the ones that maybe do, you really need to check if they really want it. Does that make sense if you really want this? Because it might not be instant, but if you give us a little bit of time, the evidence suggests we might do okay. So I think for me, yeah, it has to be.

And also, like, I went to M.K. Don's because of Pete, the German gaming opportunity, was incredible guy. and was brave to appoint me. I left to go Swansea when I was so happy at MK because Swansea was one of the clubs. I thought, do we get an opportunity to go somewhere that is like aligned with us in terms of their ideal football

and how they've been successful, the way they got to the Premier League playing a certain way? And then left Swansea when I was so happy there with the staff, the players, what we were building. But for Jason Wilcox, because he believed so much, he was the director of football, Southampton, he's now at Manchester United. He believed so much in a certain way.

And when we spoke about football, I was like, okay, this is the guy I want to work with and now I'll go again. And then when he left to go to Manchester Night, it changed a lot for me at Southampton. So the next one has to be about the people, I think, and what they really want, and if we really see the same things

and agree on what's important for their football club. And not just on the pitch, are they want the people to behave off the pitch, how they want it to feel. The way you want to play, I'm not, however you want to play is how you want to play, right? Do you think when you've seen what has happened to say Amarim is a prime example?

And I'm only going to do it this, I'm only there to do it this way. Do you think you see that and become more flexible in your approach? Maybe you'll tell me there are flexibilities within your system. Yeah, so I think Ruben was wed to a formation, not particularly a way. Because I looked at the team and it looked very different a lot. So I've played lots of different formation. I'm not wed to a formation at all.

I think that fits the players that you're in the building with. MK, we played a three at the backs. It fitted the players we had at Swansea the same in the first year. Then we changed to a four because we recruited different. differently. At Southampton, they insisted on playing a 4-3-3, was fine, but then to win the playoffs, we went to a back five. In the Premier League, we probably changed a bit too much, trying to be adaptable, but no, I think there's certain principles and concepts and behaviours. You wish you'd left after you'd got promoted?

Well, you look at it in the hindsight, but I think, again, so we had a director of football in Jason that was fantastic and watched training every day. So, like, if there was a question, he understood the process. He was, we'd show him the team meeting, so he was all involved, all encompassed in the football. And then also he felt the culture, how we treated people. He was massive on that behaviours because he'd been at Man City for a long time in the academy and built certain things that were really important.

So then when he left, I tried to stress to the club. We had this guy that you paid, you deemed really important as a director of football. He's now gone and we're going into the Premier League weaker without him. So we haven't replaced him. And when I was at the club, they hadn't replaced that role. So that was a frustration of mine. And then we got off on a new contract to say,

look, if we go down, we're going to be, you know, we've got you, but we want to have a best, but you need to play some young players, but we need to try and stay up. So I felt like we did that. We played Mattes-Fernandez, Tyler Diblin, some really talented young players, Taylor Howard Bellis. We signed Aaron Ramsday, who's only available for a few games because he broke his finger and all that stuff. So my frustration then was like, well, I feel like we're doing okay. And actually, we will pick up more points, and there's been a couple of games that are tough. But if we're going to say we're going to carry on doing it this way in the Premier League,

because it's going to be good for us, then there's certain games we will get beat. and it might be quite heavy, but then we'll get back on the horse and we'll try and go again. We didn't pick up enough points, it was frustrating, but the narrative around it became, in the building, the players are amazing,

the staff were fantastic, they wanted to stay on path because they believed in it a lot, but the narrative became all about we're going down because of the style of play. Any other team in that position, so if you look at the teams right now that are in that position,

teams that when we were in the league, no one ever talks about style of play, they just go to the club, can't compete because they've just come up. The players aren't quite good enough, but with us, it was all about style. of play because maybe they see some times the guys

take a chance in the edge of the box early on the season make a mistake. But if you sit back and defend and try and fight and win that way in counter-attack is completely acceptable. So my job at that point was to try and protect the players as much as possible. Then I'm the one that gets sacked which is fine because we didn't quite find a way. But I was frustrated with that. More hurt than I was of Rangers. Rangers is a bit more. I didn't really have time to do anything

but with the self-emptor one I was hurt for quite a while. Liam Rissina had to end up talking today about Chelsea's £10 million fine and a suspended transfer ban after admitting making payments to unregistered agents and third parties. It's the largest fine ever handed out by the Premier League. BBC Sports Football Issues correspondent Dale Johnson is with us. And there is a sort of highlight Liam Rossini having to talk about it is because these are historical.

And actually, this is nothing to do with the current ownership or the current managerial regime. That's exactly. And if it hadn't been a change of ownership to Blue Code, we probably would never have found out that anything had been happened. And this was one of the things that was said in the ruling today, that the new owners have been so open that there were certain level of breaches whereby, if they'd launched an investigation,

they would never have been able to uncover exactly what had gone on. And so what's happened is that there's been two offences. On top of the one you mentioned, they also found guilty of breaches in terms of making approaches, impermissible approach is the academy players between 2019 and

2022. They've got a nine-month ban for signing the academy players for that. But this is really the important

one. The fact that they made 47 and a half million pound worth of payments to those unlicensed

agents over an eight-year period. And half of that was on a series of players who really were very important

to them. Like Eden Hazard, David Louise, Ramirez and Namanyamachi they played like multiple hundred games for them

and helped Chelsea win trophies. but let's look at the Eden Hathar example. He was signed in 2012. Then from 2013 to 2016, Chelsea paid around six and a half million pound to a company which was associated with the agents of the player. So you've got to ask, are Chelsea getting off really lightly, whereby they're only getting a 10 million pound fine,

and they're only getting suspended transfer ban. When you've got one of the best players in the world, or the most coveted players in the world in 2012, then you find out that Chelsea are paying like six and a half million pounds over seven payments to this person. It's a difficult one, Rory, isn't it? Because they've been, I'm not going to ask Russell about this. We've already asked Russell about it.

Like Russell could take a break in, which is why I'm coming to you. Thanks. Yeah. People could ask if Chelsea have gone off lightly, but I go back to the point that it would, be unfair, wouldn't it, to punish the current... Would it be unfair to punish the current regime who highlighted it? I have a lot of sympathy for the Premier League here, actually.

Well, yes and no on all of those things, Chapters. Right, okay. Yes, they self-reported, which is good, it's tremendous sort of openness from Bluto. But no, because, as Dale said, you know, these signings made a material difference to Chelsea's performance, for several years.

I mean, what, Hazard Ramirez, David Louise, William, these are some of the biggest players in Chelsea's recent history. Who were also wanted by other clubs? William,

they famously took from Spurs, didn't they at the last minute? And Hazard, do you remember the tweet? The Eden Hazard tweet? I'll tell you tomorrow or something, wasn't it? I'm signing for the champions of Europe. It was one of the great early Twitter moments.

And no one was quite sure. I'm not even sure his account was verified and no one was sure if it was him or not. But, you know, lots of other teams were in for Hazard, I think Manchester United were, I suspect Tottenham were as whenever Chelsea's sound of player, it tends to be out of Tottenham's hands.

That then impacts kind of what Chelsea achieve. It affects how attractive the asset is that Bluto then buy. So, yeah, my instinct is that, I mean, the fine is, I know it's the biggest in Premier League history, but it's pretty paltry, to be honest, for the stale of the offences. And in terms of sympathy for the Premier League, yes, because you're having to unpick

very complicated financial, kind of machinations of a now sanctioned individual. So, you know, it's a really complicated bit of sort of financial forensic work, I guess. But at the same time, I mean, if this is the bit that Chelsea have self-reported, and again, credit to Bluto and to the club for doing that, what other stuff is going on there, not just at Chelsea, but elsewhere? Like, who else is doing what? And should the Premier League not maybe have more of a grip on that?

And I do wonder if there's a little bit of a missed opportunity in terms of. of kind of the sanction that if you don't play this whole thing and it's the same with PSR and SCR and city and all that other stuff none of this really means anything

if people aren't playing by the same rules it's quite a worrying sign more broadly Is there a sense of the Premier League draw a line under this then Dale or are they looking elsewhere at things and I suppose there may be having said it's got nothing to do with the current ownership there may be

owners of other clubs up and down the league who might say well hang on a minute we've been punished for things that have gone on under previous owners as well. I think as far as it's concerned, it's a closed book now in terms of the two cases, but I think Rory makes a really good point. I mean,

if we're going to think that it's really just Chelsea that have been engaging in this type of payments to make sure they get star players, I mean, I'm very surprised if there wasn't other clubs that do that type of thing, because at the end of the day, these clubs want to get these players ahead of everyone else, and they clearly find out.

a way to make sure that they choose their club. Dale, thank you very much. Dale Johnson with us, BBC Sports Football Issues correspondent, such as the nature of what managers have to talk about then nowadays. Liam Rissini had to talk about that. Then I had to talk about huddles. I think in terms of the huddle,

I think it's been blown out of proportion, to be honest. It's a small, small thing amongst many, many serious things that we need to address, such as a massive game against PSG tomorrow. in terms of the huddle, the lads have always wanted to show unity and togetherness. I think they'll continue to do that. But what we don't want to do is antagonise or bring more noise on ourselves, and we'll make the decision on where we do that on the pitch tomorrow.

This is one of the weirdest things I can remember. I can't think of a story as ridiculous as this, to be honest. I keep a kind of semi-list of moments where I think football has got beyond itself with stupidity. And on that list is, do you remember the bit where Gary the Nigg canceled match of the day? But there's just bits where you sort of think, Hang on, I can't really believe this thing is happening because it makes no sense. And this is a really good, nice, pure example of it.

The whole thing is completely absurd. I don't understand what Chelsea were trying to do. I don't really understand why Paul Tierney stayed in the huddle, did he not have engineered his way out of it? I don't get the thing about respecting the ball. I feel a bit like there's some deeper meaning to it that I'm too stupid to understand. I'm with you, Rory.

I think Paul Tini should just get out of the way. And then it's just not even, would anyone be speaking about it? If he'd, like, it was the maddest, when I was watching it, and I saw Col Palmer hug him, I thought, he's definitely going to get out now. And he just stayed there.

It was like, what is going on? But, yeah, I just don't see it as a problem. If you were the opposition, because it first, I know they first said they did it away in Napoli, didn't they, when they won? Then it seemed to be, a thing when they were at Villa Park. That was the one that I remember and they did it

out of time on the centre circle. It's just the location that seems to have become a thing. Would you be bothered if you were the opposition? It depends on, also it depends on the context of the teams. If you're a team that's really in a good place, I don't think it bothers you too much. If you're not, maybe it gets used by the manager as a, you know, something to antagonise and use against the opposition. But I don't know. You've seen it In rugby for years, I'm always interested in the response to the hacker. And I was going to start getting interested in teams' responses to Chelsea's huddle over the hot. But it seems the referees responded before any teams can.

It's become an issue. So I think it's just, I'm with Liam, really. It's not really a massive thing. But it's been turned into it because, yeah, there'll be memes for years of Pultini just standing in the middle of their huddle, won't they? I mean, I suppose there's a point where, like, you do, if you're talking a really weird, situation you do try to freeze don't you

you're trying to like I don't know what's happening here why are all these people something there he must have been warned

about it pre-match to be in there to say this is what Chelsea do can we make sure

that this I don't know otherwise I don't know why that's become a it would be interesting

to see if he'd been warned about it or to do something about it to try and make them move

I don't know yeah I thought it was really really weird the whole thing I mean we used to do

a huddle at Celtic where well on the pitch, Mark. Yes, I know. Yes, I know. But what?

In your own half? In the penalty area? Yeah, just in her own half. And it was just something which we did. In truth, as a player, I can't actually remember what anybody ever said in the huddle. I wasn't sort of focusing on it. I find the whole thing just truly remarkable.

I think Liam Rossini, I like him a lot. I think he's a really smart bloke. I do, but I think he then, when he gets involved in sort of having to explain things like this and talking about, you know, the players respecting the ball and, you know, that brings unity and leadership and that's all important. I don't, I don't really understand, you know, it's sort of, I wondered whether he was on the keynote speaking course I was on when you hear stuff like that. It's just, it's absolute nonsense. It, you know, it really is. I think Huddles, are for show.

That's what they are. And if you're a player, you know, show it by by a recovery run. Show it by, you know, bailing your team out with a brilliant block or a brilliant bit of skill. I don't understand what it's really sort of all for. The referee getting involved in that,

well, he, you know, he loves it to and he does. But I don't necessarily blame him. And when you, you know, if you think about Liam Rossini, he was really angry, wasn't he, about Arsenal, the Arsenal in their half, yeah. In the half. Why is he getting involved in

in stuff, you know, like that? If I was him, I would have just, I would have just batted, swatted that off, battered that off and said, you know, I'm not really that fuss. It just, it's not a great look for him. Do you think, Rory, it may, from whatever reason

why they decided to do it at the start, and maybe they won't care about this, really, it has actually gone the other way and made it a sort of a bit of a laughing stock. I think people, do you know what happens? I just think people are really baffled by the entire thing. The one bit where I think Dersini might be being slightly disingenuous is that I'm guessing the players didn't do it spontaneously.

It sounds like it's a thing that he wants them to do, and he wants them to do it around the ball. No, he said it was their decision to do it, and he would go along with what the leaders of the group wanted. Well, I mean, yeah, I'm not sure it's that, I suppose that means it's on the players, but I'm not sure it's a great look if you're swarming the referee. I mean, I don't think it was intimidating. Did they swarm the referee, though?

He was just a Burke standing there, wasn't he? I mean, you know, what was he doing as well? But if you're going to respect everything, I mean, are they going to do it around a corner flag next time? Respect the corner flag, respect the goal. you can respect a lot of things, can't you? Well, yeah. No, I think it's surely at some point someone's going to have to... It means mad that someone's going to have to legislate for this now.

No, they're not. Come on. They will. They'll have to be like Rule 7, subsection D, you're not allowed to huddle around any of the match officials. That's the natural outcome of this. Okay, to end it there. Chris runs a sort of former Norwich Clay Pigeon shooting club with him and Rule Fox.

So maybe after tonight you could be, Yeah, you're in? Yeah, come in. Come along. There you go. Lovely to see you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Rory.

Thank you, Chris. Well-behaved. Christopher. Excellent. That's it for this episode. Next on, the Football Daily Feed will be reaction to all the teams in Tuesday Night's Champions League,

including Manchester City against Railman. I'm Rich Hall, and this is Sports Strangest Crimes Presents of a Super Bowl streaker. When people ask me what I do, I say to them, well, by day or by night. The story of one man's mission to conquer the holy grail of streaking the Super Bowl.

Mark Roberts is too lively for his body. He's just like the entertainer. Mark pushes the boundaries of what is socially acceptable. No chance. Texas. It's really strict. But then the more thoughts about it. And I thought, fine.

What are you about? Sports Strangers Crimes presents Confessions of a Super Bowl streaker. Listen on BBC Sounds. We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web. Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now.

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