Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Is modern Premier League football rubbish?

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

After the Manchester Derby turned into a damp squib, Mark Chapman, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Michael Brown discuss whether over-coaching, micro-management and a fear making mistakes has become an "illness in the game". They also ask why derbies have seemingly lost their spark.And after Ivan Juric left Southampton following their relegation, Glen de la Cour from the Total Saints podcast joins the MNC to discuss where the Saints go from here.Topics: 03:14 - What next for Southampton? 12:40 - Glen de la Cour from the Total Saints podcast 20:01 - Why won't promoted clubs adapt their style of play to suit the Premier League? 34:08 - Is modern Premier League football rubbish? 40:19 - Have derbies lost their spark? 48:44 - When does coaching become micro-management?BBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week:Arsenal v Real Madrid - Champions League - 20:00 - Tuesday 8th April PSG v Aston Villa - Champions League - 20:00 - Wednesday 9th April Lyon v Man Utd - Europa League - 20:00 - Thursday 10th April Forest v Everton - Premier League - 15:00 - Saturday 12th April Arsenal v Brentford - Premier League - 17:30 - Saturday 12th April Liverpool v West Ham - Premier League - 14:00 - Sunday 13th April Newcastle v Man Utd - Premier League - 16:30 - Sunday 13th AprilBBC Sounds / 5 Sports Extra commentaries this week:Belgium v England - Nations League - 19:30 - Tuesday 8th April Chelsea v Ipswich - Premier League - 14:00 - Sunday 13th April Wolves v Spurs - Premier League - 14:00 - Sunday 13th April

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Welcome to The Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One like never before. I'm Matt Magendie and thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. This week, Matt will take you on a deep dive into race strategy. He speaks to members of the Red Bull team that probably wake up in a cold sweat shouting, Box, box!

I still get nervous before a race All it takes is one safety car up in odd time and it completely changes the complexion of things Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the inside track wherever you get your podcasts Welcome to the Monday Nightclub, Rory Smith and Chris Sutton with us. We did trail across BBC Sport over the weekend that Duncan Ferguson will be with us tonight and he isn't now so we knew that we had to go big for his replacement and luckily as I always do over the weekend I was listening to 606 and once I heard Chris Sutton say this there was only one man that we could go for. Kevin de Bruyne Rob. Oh Kevin de Bruyne. One of the great Belgian artists up there Rob alongside René Magritte. Okay it's sensational football of the greatest player of the Premier League era for

Manchester City and they've had some greats Rob haven't they you think Vincent Company, Sergio Aguero, Georgie Kinkladze, Michael Brown, Erling Haaland, David Silver, Zabeletta, they've had some great players, they've had some great players haven't they Manchester City, Passe extraordinaire, what a player, great talent, it's not just Manchester City you're going to miss him, it's the Premier League Rob, the outstanding Sen Sation. Michael Brown, I've played Paddle with Michael tomorrow, I'll tell him about that, listen I'm not saying Michael wasn't a great but Michael Brown and playing Paddle with Michael tomorrow, I'll tell him about that. Listen, I'm not saying Michael wasn't a great, but Michael Brown with George O'Garro. Like, you're playing Michael Brown, the same... Well, one of the greats, Rob.

I'm happy. Tell him that tomorrow. Tell him that tomorrow. Now it'd be amazing after playing that clip if we'd actually booked George O'King Clancy, but... But Michael Brown is with us. Evening. Evening. That's a nice intro, isn't it?

Chris, I mean, I did hear about this. You'd be a bit sarcasm last night. It's fine. But it wasn't sarcasm. That wasn't sarcasm. One of my favorites. Yeah, thanks so much. One of my favorites.

Appreciate it. Listen to them. What we do know is the Manchester Derby wouldn't have been dull with you playing yesterday. I might have livened it up a little bit at some point just to mix it up. But yeah, thank you for that. I mean, the paddle tennis went really well, actually. You mentioned that a lot on your show, Chris. Did you beat him?

We were 4-0 down and he said, you're not fit to lace our boots. You shouldn't be on this court. You should be allowed to play with us. And then the next 19 games games we were 19-2. So we won 7-5, 6-1 and then we stopped, shook hands and they said he wants to play again for £50 each so we beat him 6-0. It was a really good day. Really splendid day Chris, so you can run that as much as you want can't you? Is he terrible at Paddle?

He's alright actually, he's alright. Alright, okay. Him and his partner, his boss, were at the races today so I really enjoyed that as I was coming on today. They got a nice call to come on this and I thought, ah perfect, good timing. So Michael is with us, Rory and Chris as well and with that mention of the Manchester Derby a little bit later on we will discuss the state of modern Premier League football and modern Premier League derbies as well. But we're going to

start on a negative with Southampton relegated on Sunday, the earliest in terms of games remaining in Premier League history. So that's after seven, well sorry rather with seven to go, it'd be a heck of a thing if they were relegated after just seven. Ivan Juric was sacked today, his stint of 104 days in charge is the ninth shortest for a permanent manager in Premier League history. From start to finish Chris, it is, well, how would you describe it? I've got sympathy for Southampton because we've seen the newly promoted sides in recent seasons really struggle, but it has been embarrassing for them. They're now in a position listening to even Juric speak, I mean he's gone now, but after the relegation saying the aim was to get past Derby and that

was Robbie Savage who was captain and their 11 points stood the worst ever Premier League team. That was the aim. I mean that is is the lowest of low bars. If you're a Southampton player, the season they started, didn't they, with all the optimism in the world and they, and they believed in Russell Martin and they were going to stick with that plan through thick and thin. And then when things started to go wrong, they panicked, they sacked Russell Martin and, and even Eurich, I thought it was an impossible job, but they went from one style to another and it's just been a mess. And the sort of cautionary part of all this for Southampton is that you look what's happened

to Luton. You know, when they came down under Rob Edwards and Rob did a great job to get them up and they stuck with him for a large part of this season up to January. But they're banging trouble now and they could go down again. So that would be my fear for Southampton. Chris describes it as the impossible job, Michael. I mean, it's not. I mean, it's not impossible. And the return of four points from 14 games, an average of 0.29 points per game for Juric.

Is he one of the worst appointments in Premier League history? Well, the stats are not lying, are they? Yes, he was up against it with the squad. You feel like at the start of the season, are they? Yes, he was up against it with the squad. You feel like at the start of the season, I was looking at the recruitment thinking we knew it was going to be a struggle. Will he change from the style of play? Will he stick with Russell Martins methods? He tried it and it got even more ridiculous, didn't it? With some of the things they did, the goals that they were conceding, knocked all the confidence out

of them. Yeah, so it's turned out an extremely poor appointment, that's for certain. I expected some sort of reaction. We see it with certain managers at times, but this one has just not even got any kick out of them. I think that is the huge concern. I mean, the squad there, you're talking about going all the way down, Chris. I mean, that's an interesting call, isn't it? To go down twice or to be in that same sort of struggle yourself up now. What type of appointment do they want? What about player recruitment? What sort of money is going to be there? And that's what's really going to be interesting in this. But the answer, yes,

I dodged around it extremely, yes. But as... But to what extent though, can you kind of blame the manager when you obviously have Russell Martin who brings them up playing that kind of that specific style and Okay, it was we can probably all agree It was quite naive to try and do that in the Premier League to try and do it with a squad That wasn't kind of vastly superior to the teams you were you were facing which is what happened in the championship But then if if your rich comes in doesn't get as Michael says like any kick out of them at all Even if you allow for like the loss of confidence and that you know, any kick out of them at all. Even if you allow for the loss of confidence

and whatever the opposite of momentum is, that's what Southampton had. Surely the big mistake that Southampton have made here is whatever they did in the summer, their recruitment to get ready for the Premier League just didn't work. Like it's the players they put together just weren't the right mix.

And I don't want to say they're bad players, they're not bad players, but weren't the right mix, weren't the right kind of blend of experience.'t want to say they're bad players, they're not bad players, but weren't the right mids, weren't the right kind of blend of experience, and youth didn't have the characteristics required to even make a fist of staying up. Is that not the big mistake that was made? Well, when you look at who they recruited, Rory,

they recruited in the main championship players. And I don't mean that, I don't mean only, but players who had succeeded in the championship. Which maybe suggests that's not what you should be. And it's easy to say this once they've been relegated with 10 points, but maybe that suggests that whatever's happened in the Premier League the last couple of years, where we've seen

the three promoted sides go down last season, we're gonna see the three promoted sides go down again this season. The gap between the championship and the Premier League, we can all agree, is getting bigger. So maybe that suggests that what you do when you get promoted is you do not try and kind of put together a championship super team because it won't stay up. But the other thing, Chris, as we have mentioned before, and I don't want to do the whole pattern again, but they have basically repeated what they did the last time they were relegated.

Yeah. I mean, as in, well, I might as well repeat it if people didn't hear it last time, but they had Ralph Hassanhooter last time, who they then sacked, they brought in Nathan Jones, and that didn't work, and they sacked. They then gave it a caretaker manager till the end of the season and they went down. So that was Hassan Hütel to Nathan Jones to Ruben Celas. They then get rid of Ruben Celas once they're relegated.

They then go to a championship manager that they really admire in Russell Martin and appoint him and he takes them up. Now they've sacked Russell Martin, they bring in Juric who doesn't do anything, they sack him, they give it caretakers in Simon Rusk and Adam O'Lan until the end of the season. It's probably unlikely to be them and they're looking at Sheffield Wednesday's Danny Roll at a championship club who they admire to possibly take them back up. Yeah I mean would it be so ridiculous to go back to Russell Martin with the same group of players?

It would still be getting paid. Well, in all seriousness, would it? Well, I mean, it sounds ridiculous. It won't happen, but bearing in mind Russell would know the players inside out, he did get them over the line. Look, I do have sympathy for them, I think you're right in making that comparison. Who do you have sympathy for? Sorry, when you say have sympathy for them, who do you have sympathy for? Because I think it's difficult and I'm not going to disagree with what Rory's saying about

And I'm not going to disagree with what Rory is saying about signing players from the championship and then making that step. That was never going to be easy, it was always going to be a challenge. But then what's the alternative? First of all, who really wants to go to Southampton and be in a relegation struggle at the start? How much are you going to spend? Can you lavish £50-60 million on trying to bring a player in or a couple of players in and then still expect to stay in the Premier League? We've seen gamblers in the past who have got away with it. Aston Villa did first season, £140-150 million. Nottingham Forest, what a great story

there. But it doesn't work for everybody. So that recruitment, they've got on the wrong side of it. Basit of Ramsdale, who was a decent signing, I think. But recruitment is always difficult because the best players want to go to the best club. So there's always that element of gambling. The issue I always felt, Mark, was that, you know, I started off saying they should have just stuck with Russell Martin. I do believe that and I understand it's all results driven. But if you have that philosophy, you have that plan, you've got to have the courage to see it through for them just to rip everything

up halfway through the season. They panicked. They panicked. They trusted Russell Martin. And I understand it's difficult for the club's support, but how many times are we going to see this now? And the team's coming up. Well, Norwich City did it, tried to have this philosophy under Daniel Tharke playing out, we're going

to do it our way they did and look where Norwich are now, so the mediocre mid-table championship team. Burnley did it, Burnley spent a fair few quid, but they've changed the way that they're playing, but under Vincent Company they played a purest brand of football and stuck with that. Vincent Company did well off the back of it, but Burnley went down. I do have sympathy for them. It's been a pathetic season in terms of the points tally. I've got a friend who's a Southampton fan and that age old debate about would the fans

prefer to be in the Premier League or the Championship? I think Southampton fans, he certainly feels he would rather have a few seasons with the team trying to win games in the Championship. Well, let's bring the Southampton fan in now who may well be shaking his head that Glenda Lacourt is with us on the Monday nightclub from the Total Saints podcast. Evening Glenn. Evening. Thank you very much for having me on. No, thank you. I mean, your post yesterday on social media has made me laugh a lot. If

you're having your tea, you may not want to listen to this, but it did make me laugh. Down Go Southampton in record time featuring the do nothing game plan, skygazing defenders, ambling about, pink kit nightmare and a lap of defecation. Yeah, I was having a bad day. I hope the phrase lap of defecation catches on for sides that aren't doing very well. Would you rather be in the championship then and win in games for a few seasons? Not for a few seasons because I think Chris has hit the nail on the head. If you stay in the championship for too long, you do end up like Norwich or you end up like

Stoke. You can go down for one season and you can still maintain a decent enough squad and with the parachute payments you've got a good shout of getting yourself up near the top of the table. I think the championship will always be okay for one, maybe two seasons, but if you stay down for any longer than that then I think you begin to struggle and it just becomes, you either settle for that or it becomes, you know, a desperate gamble to get back to the riches of the Premier League and that's a recipe for disaster. Do you, sorry, and then everybody else can come in. Do you apportion blame to anybody or are you of the opinion more of this is nigh and impossible to stay in this league if you get promoted,

which is what the evidence is saying. I think it is nigh impossible to stay in the league if you're going to play by the PSR rules. But we could certainly have done things better. And that's not hindsight. That was, you know, as soon as the transfer window closed in the summer, I was looking at our squad thinking, we got no chance. And it's interesting. I heard you saying your intro that you,

it would take something to be relegated after seven games. I was accepting that we were relegated after seven games. Honestly, it was just, I think, I can't remember, I think we got one point after seven games. It was, and it was just, it was just shocking. I mean, as you can, for those was just shocking. I've been around the block a few years watching this team, so I'm more accepting of the situation than I think younger people would be. The gap between the Championship and the Premier League is six

from six, or it will be at the end of this season. I'd put any money on with you. It'll be nine from nine at the end of next season. I mean, the three that are looking to come up, Burnley, Sheffield United have done it in recent times and gone straight down. And I look at Leeds and they look to have a worse team on the pitch than they had in the playoff final

against us last year. So I think they would massively struggle as well. If you are a yo-yo club like us, or like we've become, the PSI rules are a real problem because we got relegated three years ago and we're still carrying that season in our rolling three years. And in a desperate Hail Mary attempt to stay up, we wasted about 80 million in the January. Yeah.

And we're still kind of paying for that. You get a decrease in your PSR limit, if you like, when you do spend a season outside of the Premier League. So we didn't have that much money to spend. So all you can do is hope to have a 100% hit rate with your recruitment and just try and recruit quality instead of quantity. As you touched on earlier, we just haven't done that. We recruit players, particularly at the top end of the pitch, who are at championship level at best. I'm thinking Ben Barrett and Diaz, Cameron Archer, Ryan Fraser, you know, those guys are not going to set the

Premier League light. They're really not. And after seven games, I knew that. And yeah, it's shocking. But the standard of the Premier League, I mean, we've been in, you know, we had a long run from 2012 until two years ago in the Premier League. And when we played teams like Brentford, Wolves, Brighton, Fulham, Bournemouth, Palace, they were the games that we used to think we've got a good chance of, these are the games that we've got to get our points in. But you look at those teams now that I just mentioned, they are miles better than us now.

It used to be a case you play those teams and think, okay, this is fairly even, this game could go either way. But we turn up against these teams and you look at the way they play and they're so much better than us. And yes, our points total is embarrassing in the extreme, but Leicester have found it exactly the same, especially in the recent run they've been having. They're arguably even worse than us at the moment. So yeah, it's a problem. But I mean, will anyone be interested enough in the bottom of the table to do something about it? I mean, the ring-fenced 17 teams that we've got now, they'll be quite happy with the

situation with the three teams coming up having this mighty struggle to get anywhere near. But what does anyone want to do about it? Blen, so I'm generally pro PSR in some format. I think you need to have financial control. What would you like to see happen? What change do you think should be made to give the teams that are promoted more of a fighting chance? Is it kind of striking off the years

in the championship from their calculation? Well, the trouble is if you do that, then, you know, I mean, one of the reasons PSI was brought in was to stop teams overspending. And so there is the danger that, you know, if you said to Saints at the start of the season, and you can spend an extra 40 million quid, we might have done that and still ended up in the same boat. And with the recruitment sort of team that we had in place at the start of the season and you can spend an extra 40M quid, we might have done that and still ended up in the same boat. With the recruitment team that we had in place at the start of the season, that probably would have been the case. The only answer is to, and it's an impossible one, is to make the money available to the remaining Premier League teams less, but that will never happen. No one's ever interested in less. It's always about more.

It's about more games, more money, more this, more that. So I don't really know what the answers are. And I haven't, to be honest, I hadn't really thought about it until this season, when you see the state that ourselves, I mean, Leicester have got themselves in a financial mess. And Ipswich will be interested next year because they've spent a lot this year. They had more scope to spend because they'd been in League One and the championship and stuff.

They didn't have Premier League relegations on their docket. So, yeah, it'd be interesting to see what happens to them next year, but you know Leicester are going to struggle financially next year. And it's always the case that you've got to lose your best players for whatever money you can get from them. We will end it there. Glenn, thank you very much for coming on. Glenn De La Cour from Total Saints podcast. The only other thing in all of this, Michael, on Southampton, and you could say it for several clubs as well, and we're going to come on to style a little bit later on when talking about the Manchester Derby.

But Troy Deany made the point on match of the day two last night, having been promoted himself over the years, that you get promoted and then try to play football like the top four or five Premier League teams. The players who aren't good enough to play the football like the four or five top Premier League teams, and you're gonna get found out. Whereas if you try and do something different, it might just work. Well, I think you've got to try and look

and adapt to every point. I had this conversation with certain people over the weekend at different games, and we look at the best managers, how they've had to adapt. Manuel comes back down to Pep Guardiola so much regarding if it's not on to play, Edison will clip it over the top, he'll go direct, he'll turn you around, he'll run off shoulders. So there's many different ways to play to find a way of winning. What surprises you is certain managers, Chris's favourite, Anshposta Kogli, will not change. He will stick with that remit

and not come away from it. Ruben Ameren, we're seeing at Manchester United doing the same and obviously you've got to find a different solution a different way and that is the point, isn't it? Everyone comes up and does the same method and you're struggling. I think you have to adapt in different games every single week but some just won't do it and that is the problem. We've seen them rolling it out and as you say Southampton wide open and they just get impressed, the players are quicker, the better, the more alert, the tactical sort of little traps that you get put in as well. They want you to go and play and then just jump straight over the top of you because they know

exactly what you're going to do because the detail is that good. So yeah you've got to find a different solution surely when you do it but we still see teams continuing exactly the same. Do you get relegated Rory as much by philosophy as by PSR? Yeah I think Glenn's right I think PSR is an issue for that there is a there is an issue with the promoted clubs because it does it does kind of hamstring them there are mechanisms you could introduce but what he what he said is absolutely right it is this scenario is in the interest of the 17 teams above them, above the bottom three in the Premier League.

You know, if you're West Ham, Everton, Wolves, any of those sides who might at some point theoretically have to worry about relegation, this is exactly what you want. It's perfect. The three come up, go straight back down. Then the other three who went back down, went down the previous year, they come straight back up, go straight back down. It's ideal for 17 teams. For a lot of them, this is how they want it to be. How you break it, I don't know. I agree with you, Chapters. I think that trying to play like a

Tesco own brand version of Pep Guardiola football probably doesn't work because the other teams are better at it than you are. If you do something different, that feels logical, but it's difficult to know what is the different thing that you do. Do you go full long ball? Do you try and do data like Brighton and Brentford have done with some success? It feels like maybe that route is closed.

You worry that maybe the lesson everyone learns is actually what you have to do is what Villa and Forest did, which is basically mortgage your future and roll it all on a massive summer spend and hope that it sticks. But that, again, as Glenn said, that is not sustainable, it's not healthy, it's kind of, it's what we introduced from the start. They're having that problem. They're having that plan now, aren't they? You're looking at Leeds United, Sheffield United and Burnley, they're exactly having two ways to go and they're exactly thinking what are they going to do and how far and that will be the problem

that I have our targets already, the two separate pieces of paper, one for the Championship, one for the Premier League, which how far do they go with it? And now one of them might think... But you would fear for any of them though, wouldn't you? And that's nothing, it's nothing against Scott Parker or Chris Wilder or Daniel Farker if it is those three that come up. And what you would fear, you would fear for all of them, wouldn't you? I mean, as Glenn said- Daniel Farker's 100% certain that Leeds are coming up. So that's, you know, let's take

that as as read. No, you would fear for them. I mean, Burnley, brilliant defensively under Scott Parker, but the truth is we all think the same thing. They're not going to be brilliant defensively in the Premier League. So are they better than Chris? Are they better suited because they've got that defensive structure? Maybe. Maybe better suited than they were last time. That is possible, that they'll come up and they won't be as kind of attractive to watch but they might just be a little bit more resolute. I think what you need to be honest is as Michael says you're drawing

up lists of players already to sign, some in the Premier League, some if you're in the Championship. If you come up you kind of need what three or four of those just to be absolute smash hit successes. You need to find a couple of jewels and try and kind of hang everything on them and that might just keep you up and at the same time you maybe need one of those teams above you And ever to know West Ham a palace maybe a Brentford or wolves you need them to do basically everything wrong That is the that is the only path to salvation. Let me read some of the emails and and texts that are coming in Michael Brown Chris Sutton and Rory Smith,

who evidently shops at Waitrose on the Monday Night Club this evening. Absolutely not, have you seen the prices? Not a chance. Well, you used to shop there, did you then? Well, yeah, until everything kind of got inflated. I'm in the North, Chris. There's only one Waitrose, it's always packed.

Hi all, says Darren, after leaving Wembley after last season as a Leeds fan. I think all Southampton fans knew what was going to happen as they didn't even seem that happy then. The key is to have to get the summer right and not sign championship players. Andy in London sent us an email as well. He says, I'm wondering if you can recall several seasons back when Southampton were doing better and you had a senior executive from Southampton on the show explaining the success of their

business approach. We did, we had their chief exec, didn't we, on the show? We did, Martin Sellers? Martin, yeah. Or explaining the success of their business approach to being a Premier League club. My takeaway from that interview is that they were removing all ambition of winning titles and trophies and replacing it with a business model of survival first. Essentially, if they were comfortably placed mid-table and continued their policy of developing and selling talent, that was success

enough. How can you be a fan if there's no expectation to win something? They haven't been able to sustain that, so is this an indication that the business of Premier League football is becoming too much for many clubs to deal with? And what will it do to the fan base who will surely start to ask, what's the point if there's no dream? That's a very good email, Michael Brown, isn't it? Yeah, very good detail. That's the point, isn't it? I mean, it's just such a difficult situation. I think that there's the one as well

where people are buying for the season after almost for the relegation. I've seen that on many clubs. They're already planning to say, right, well, we're all gonna get relegated. Why are we gonna spend all that money? I think it's 120 million instantly. Is that the sort of the level of money that they receive?

And then from there on, there's a few steps. So how do you spend that in today's market? You just look at obviously some of them Southam players, 17 million, 20 million, I think the goalkeeper was obviously a really good sign, I think you've got value there for certain. What does he do now? You know the answer. He wants to go straight back to the Premier League, hands up, let me go. That's what he'll want to do.

I think he was, I don't think he should have went there in the first place if I was honest. It's easy to say now, he's a Southampton fan. Yeah, I get it. No, but you just look at it and think why would you do that? I don't think he needed to go do that. He's a Southampton fan, he wanted to give something back to the club which he loved. That's what football's about, isn't it? I'm a Nottingham Forest fan, delighted the team's doing well this season. You've got a few clubs Chris.

It is one V-Rons I've had. Do you think there's a market for Ramsdale? Do you think there would be a market for Ramsdale in the pre-match? Yeah, I do. Where? That's a very good question isn't it? Where? That's the answer. Chelsea? Where? That's the answer. Chelsea?

He's going to be better than some of them, that's for certain. Chelsea? Yeah, all day long. Is there, he's been relegated three times now. Right, but is there, within the game, does there become a stigma to that? I mean, look, if he signs for Chelsea, it's highly unlikely Chelsea are going to get relegated. But do you think twice? Would people think twice? Who did he get relegated with? Warner Sheffields United in Southampton. And in between, he's had Arsenal and England.

Yeah, so I mean, you... Did England get relegated from the Nations League? No. No. I think for bad times, I think he'd be in such an interesting place that he's been through everything. I think the experience he'll be gaining now, obviously, such a testing season.

Imagine pulling that show out every single week, going through that. I think he'll be better for it. I really do. And that's why I think people say, do you know what? It can only get better regards to where his season ends up. I think you've got a good quality keeper. I think he's getting better with his feet.

I think that'd be something he'll consider in that move to go and improve playing in that side. And I think it'd be a good sign in for Chelsea. Ethan Turner on YouTube. This is what happens when FMP is enforced. Teams have next to zero chance of competing unless you do a forest, that's it. I'm worried that the Premier League is turning into a closed shop. Rodders, I always thought that the Derby side was the worst but this Southampton side is as bad, horrible, surprised they still get 20,000 at Southampton Games.

Those poor fans, in amongst all the... Chappellers, can I just make a quick point on the FFP thing? Yeah. And I think this is really boring and people don't like to talk about FFP, but I think it's important that certain stuff is kind of not allowed to become seen as the truth. Yeah, it does give newly promoted science a problem. There's no question about that. There are mechanisms you could... If you thought laterally about it, there are ways you could at least make that better.

The alternative doesn't work for the newly promoted sides. It works for the teams who are backed by countries or people who are prepared to throw stupid amounts of money at football. It is not automatically healthier if the test of football is who has got the richest owner. That is not necessarily better because all that happens then is if there are 17 teams in the Premier League who've got richer owners than the teams in the championship, the same thing happens. And I think it's strange that we've decided that financial control is the big evil of everything. The alternative is...

So what do you do then? What do you do? I don't, I mean, if I had an actual answer to that, I would be consulting for the Premier League at a considerably higher day rate than I'm paid by life. But there's the one thing that I quite like. So in Sweden, where they've got this, they want to get their UEFA coefficient up. So the league, when teams qualify for Europe,

the league advance the money for the qualifying lead, when teams qualify for Europe, the lead advanced the money for the qualifying rounds, the way the seasons work, like it falls in the middle of the Swedish season. So you get an extra few hundred thousand euros, maybe a million, something like that, from the Swedish lead to bolster your squad to get into the Europa League or into the Europa Conference League. And I think there's been three Swedish sides in those competitions this season. If you qualify, you give the money back with interest. If you don't qualify, that's fine, it's just a gift from the league. You could institute something similar for the newly promoted side, so the Premier League advance the money to

help them build up their squads to make them more competitive and then if they stay up they pay the money back. The reason that won't happen is because the other 17 teams don't want them to stay up This works for everybody else it works for everyone apart from the teams who are locked out And I agree it's a problem, but then but then if they did that but if they did that but then Didn't stay up and went down You just keep the players you have the same but then you've got the issue of the wage bill Yeah, you there is still a risk, I'm not saying it's perfect, but you still get the parachute

payment and you've got a better chance of coming straight back up, I suppose. But yeah, what Glenn said is right, the gap, the financial gap is effectively too big. The most effective way of doing it is probably cutting the amount of money that the teams in the Premier League get, but that is not going to happen. So short answer is I don't know what you do. Can I ask you a question Rory? By all accounts, the board at Southampton, I think there are three clubs. There's a club in Turkey and a club in France, which they are a multi-club model whatever it is. Would some Southampton fans have a justification to think that they

would prefer a board who just have their eyes on Southampton and the fact that they're sort of spreading the net, that may be a reason why things haven't gone so well or is that sort of a little bit simplistic? Well it's difficult to say. I mean City have got other clubs and that's not stopped them. I suppose it depends how good your board is at running more than one team. You know Palace have got a part of, strictly speaking, a part of a multi-club network. There's a few that are and it doesn't necessarily sort of detract from their success. And the idea of a multi-club thing is that normally the English team's kind of at the top of the pyramid and it's the club in France and the club in Turkey that should be complaining. My guess is

that whatever Southampton did, whatever the circumstances, they just didn't recruit well in the summer and that's what's crossing. Welcome to The Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One like never before. I'm Matt Magindy and thanks to my exclusive access I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. This week, Matt will take you on a deep dive into race strategy. He speaks to members of the Red Bull team that probably wake up in a cold sweat shouting, box, box. I still get nervous before a race. All it takes is one safety car up and odd time and it completely changes the complexion of things.

Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the Inside Track, wherever you get your podcasts. Women's Football Weekly on the Football Daily. I'm Ben Haynes. I'm Ellen White. your body. It's something that's just been drilled in us from a young age and we've just kept it for a long, long time. Women's Football Weekly, only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC Sounds. The Football Daily podcast with Mark Chapman. You talked about the start of Wolves' West Ham of just sort of having 10 minutes of the players

kind of just looking at each other in a quiet atmosphere. I mean, you know, the Manchester Derby did that nine times over yesterday, basically. And so much discussion afterwards about the state, either the state of the Premier League, the state of modern football, what's happened to Derby, where the intensity is, where would you like to begin Chris? I mean a couple of weeks ago on the Monday nightclub we were, well I mean we've given Nottingham Forest a lot of praise this season, we were delighted about the FA Cup, the quarterfinals and the semi-finals. It's just because Manchester, the Manchester Derby, they have been two of the most successful clubs in our memory and it was a really drab game.

Do you think there's an overreaction to Premier League football is rubbish? Yeah, off the back, we've seen a Manchester City team who are a bit like Dad's army in parts who are in regression and Manchester United who are a slow burner once again and it wasn't a great spectacle, you can't get away from that. In a strange way I think Manchester United Manchester United do feel that they are improving slightly. It wasn't a good game. It's not what we would have seen in previous seasons. There have been some brilliant Manchester derbies, but yesterday wasn't one of them.

Then we have to judge every other club in the Premier League off the back of this derby. I think that that's really not an unfair. There's been some great stories in the Premier League. And there have been some great games. There's been just as many brilliant games this season as there are normally. I mean, there might have been a handful fewer this year than there were last year, but it's all around the same amount. A lot of Premier League games every year aren't thrilling, it's not the players job to entertain you, they're there to win football matches, if it's entertaining that's a by-product. I think the big difference this year... It's not there to be entertaining?

Football is a form of entertainment, the players primary job is not to entertain you. Football is meant to be escapism? Well we kind of project escapism onto it but the players are on the pitch to win. All the great old managers that we lured, Busby and Shankly and Steen or whatever, their philosophy was to entertain the working man as it was with those crowds back then, the working man who have done their Monday to Fridays and then need their escapism on the Saturday.

Yeah, but that doesn't come with a specific style. But we laud that philosophy. No, no, no, that's why I agree with that, Chappers, but that doesn't mean you have to play a certain way. It's just to invest your hopes and your dreams in the imagined community of millions being never more real than in 11 named individuals, that stuff. It's not... So they just said that then? Joxtein wouldn't have said, and Shankly wouldn't have said, that you have to play with inverted full backs and do all out attack and only play short from the goalie. Like that wasn't... there was no style attached to it. It was their job with the windows. Sorry, we're talking two different things there.

The... it is... all I'm saying is the players... Don't turn up on a Saturday afternoon to watch inverted full backs, do you? Some people do. The, the players primary job is to win football matches, so sometimes you do get games that are not full of expansive, adventurous football, but can be entertaining. There's no, entertaining doesn't take just one form. I think this season has been just as entertaining as normal with the difference being that a lot of the teams that have been more compelling like Chris says are Villa and forest and Brighton in Bournemouth patches Bournemouth have been incredible Fulham at times

Brentford to an extent those teams have been have produced some incredible names Newcastle have produced two or three absolute crackers The difference this year is that Manchester United, Chelsea and Tottenham have been largely dreadful throughout and Manchester City, in the case of yesterday, have got nothing to play for. The reason that Manchester Derby was so drab was because both of them just want the season to be over. You could watch that and say, well, this Premier League season has been rubbish. You wouldn't have watched Villa Forest on Saturday night and said, this Premier League season's been rubbish. That was a great game.

It was a perfectly good football match. It's just that those bigger teams, City at the moment, are drifting towards the end of the season. And three of the traditional big six have been really poor. That's the difference. It's not a case of just because Manchester's bad, the whole league is bad. No, not at all. No, it's nonsense.

But do the teams, Michael, that Rory has mentioned there, play with an intensity that the other teams you mentioned there, both Manchester clubs maybe this season, Tottenham, Chelsea, don't play with? Yeah, well, they is different, isn't it? I mean, the intensity levels, as you say, see some standout performers, as you said, in other clubs. But it was just, I don't know, I think we were all disappointed because the expectation level of a game like that should have delivered some drama and it didn't. We were sat watching, I was commenting on the game and it was like, really, is this

happening? Is somebody going to have a go? Is it going to be a little bit quicker? Man City just holding onto the ball, trying to just play the way through. Manchester United obviously trying to have some quick counter-attacks. They created the better chances. I think they did alright. I think they'll be quite pleased with how it went. They just didn't want to lose the game, that's for certain. I think City would have tried to win it. And I do think they've still got stuff to play for. Rory, I feel like you're saying it's not sure. They want the end of the season. I think they desperately need a run because they've got to win it. And I do think they've still got stuff to play for. Rory, I feel like you're

saying it's not sure they want the end of the season. I think they desperately need a run because they've got to get into those Champions League spots. They're right under pressure, people breathing down their necks. And I think with that manager, I think he demands it every single day in the training, the detail, even when you do well, he's asking for more. So I really believe he'll be pushing them. But yeah, it was just a terrible game and I'd waited such a long time, we've seen some crackers and it was just a disappointment. What do you make on Bruno Fernandes' point post-match

when you spoke to Patrick Davidson on Sky on what the derby was like to play in? And he said, it can't be like it was in the past. A lot of things have changed with VAR, everything. With VAR, you can't do that. We can't be as rough as you want to be in the duels. Does that make sense, Chris? Not really, no.

Why not? Everybody, well, it doesn't make sense to me because everybody knows where the line is and I don't see what the difference is from now to last season. In the derby games I've played in, you approached them in the same way. No, but they're the derby games that you played in, pre-VAR in a different era. But bearing in mind we still had rules, we still had officials at the games, that was the important thing. We weren't just lumping into each other in the tunnel and what have you.

I'll tell you what, if you watched the Premier League years back there were some seasons where it looked like there weren't any rules and you were lumping into each other. You see his point Chris don't you? Do you not see his point? I was sort of saying, well he can't be as physical but we still needed more than that didn't we? Yeah but you can, you know, it was very flat maybe, you know, amazingly Manchester City players, maybe the confidence has seeped out of them this season, but that still doesn't

sort of take away from the fact that as a player, the bare minimum is to, you know, really get up to the ball with a, you know, a bit of drive and put players under pressure. You don't have to go and snap someone around the kneecap. That's the point. I don't agree with what Bruno Fernandez said. I think it's just where Manchester United are at and Manchester City are at. They are two really average teams by their standards and that showed it's where they are at. But everybody watching the game expected much more.

And everybody realizes it's not going to be like it used to be and what players could get their way with. But you can't blame VAR on the fact that the game was flat. That's wrong. Yeah, it's not VAL's fault that they had one shot on target each, is it? That's not just they were all thinking, we better not shoot, they might get called up.

It was a game full of fear, wasn't it? It was United clearly desperately trying to protect whatever kind of green shoots of recovery they've seen over the last few months. And City are inhibited compared to the way that they normally play. Michael is right, I will stand down on that. City do still have something to play for. I'm not sure they're doing it with any great sense of joy at the moment but they do still have something to play for.

And that it was just a game between two sides that are, that were worried about, worried much more about what, what could go wrong than what might go right I suppose. But I, I don't think you can use that as an avatar for the rest of the Premier League. I think it's, in a way, I think it's a little bit tribal, a little bit tribalistic. It's an attempt to sort of say, well, everything's a bit rubbish now, isn't it?

Everything's terrible. You know, this doesn't really, none of this really counts just because other teams are doing better. It kind of diminishes what Forrest have achieved or what Villa might achieve. Or it's kind of saying, well, everyone's really poor. I'm not sure that's true. I think three of the big six have been bad and City have had a really disappointing season so maybe we've had to look elsewhere.

When Aaron Lennon puts something out saying Derby games are finished in the Premier League, this was after yesterday, Derby games are finished in the Premier League, they just don't exist anymore, I've watched them all this week. It's just another game they are now. So that was the Merseyside Derby, Tottenham Chelsea, Brentford Chelsea and the Manchester Derby. Is the fact that in the main those games either feature a Manchester United, a Chelsea or a Tottenham or in some cases both. Is that why then? It's got nothing to do whether it's a derby or not. I think, well do you know I watched the Merseyside derby on Wednesday night and during it, one of the things I kind of thought just to myself privately was it surprises me to what

it's done, like the mythology of these fixtures continues despite the fact that basically none of the players are from Merseyside. You know even like Jordan Pickford. So derby games are worse? I think, I don't think derby games have ever been a guarantee of entertainment. I think they're a bit softer than they used to be and that's probably good because they used to be quite violent. I think in the... No, but that's his point. That's his point.

That they're finishing the Premier League now because they don't have the intensity or the passion or the feeling on the field that they would have had even a decade ago. And you've just basically said that. Well no, I think that it's that feeling has sustained longer than maybe you'd expect it to. I mean I'm far bit from me ever to criticise something Aaron Lennon, one of Leeds' proudest sons, ever says but did he watch the first Merseyside derby of the season? That was really good and there was no shortage of passion there. I mean it may well be that it's the end of the

season after international break everyone's exhausted. I think that's a genuine factor and I think one of what Darren Neville said about systematised football, I think that is probably true but I'm not sure that any of those games are in, you don't think so? No that's not true, the micromanagement thing. Just you've missed out a derby and Aaron Lennon missed out a derby I watched at the weekend. It was brilliant, the M23 derby, Marc, and yet we suddenly dismissed that. It was a brilliant game. Mateta's goal, unbelievable, bright and attacked. Wellbeck, great goal and it was ferocious. A couple of sendings, well three sendings off, wasn't there in the end and yet we're forgetting that derby. Michael? Yeah, I mean, listen, when Aaron Lennon says it as well, this is from a player who's a

quick winger who doesn't necessarily want contact. He wants to get the ball, he wants to put crosses, he wants to dial long. And he's even actually said, come on, we need a bit of physicality. I want to see some bravery. I want to see some bravery. I want to see a challenge. So he means as well on the ball, going past people. And if there is challenges coming on, it doesn't have to be outside the laws of the game,

but they could be strong, they could be aggressive. You can get touch tight to people with that aggressive movement and make it physical that way a little bit stronger. You don't have to go to ground. But it is, yeah, I mean, yeah, we did miss one of them, Chris, like you said, a bit of action, but they weren't like, you know, it's a necessary challenge.

I just wonder whether, yeah, there are, maybe this is a TV thing, but honestly, the number of times that we for match of the day or match of the day two or Sky for a Super Sunday have one of those big, you know, Manchester United, Liverpool or Arsenal, Tottenham or Liverpool Everton and do huge opening montages and dramatic music and black and white shots and players clattering into each other from 10 years ago or 15 years ago and then the game itself is just terrible seems to happen on a more regular occurrence. But is that not a function of the pressure as well? Well Chris will tell you that there was pressure all those years ago.

No, no, no, there absolutely was and I'm not getting into another debate with Chris about, you know, how football, how we're all forgetting that football existed before 2015 or something. But you saw it in Italy in the 90s that the games mean so much that the amount of money that's riding on everything, that the managers are under such pressure that if you have one bad result then suddenly you're in crisis. And after a while it does try to drive everybody to stasis stasis. And it was like that in the Premier League as well in what, the early 2000s, when, you know, the kind of Mourinho era, that was, big games weren't, didn't finish 4-3.

And I think under like that Klopp-Guadiola era that came about, what, 2017 to 2024, 23, something like that. We got used to big games having these sort of mad tennis scores, but that's not standard really. Big games finish 1-0 with a late red card. That's been true for most of my football watching life and probably yours, Chappers. Just want to ask Rory a question, just about the micro management stuff. What's the difference between coaching and micro management? I suppose it depends how intense it is, I guess. I would tend to agree with Gary Neville

that I think a degree of individual interpretation has been lost from modern football. I think that coaches now are less inclined to allow players to express themselves. But you may have a different view, Chris, and I would respect that view. No, I think it's fascinating. I don't agree with what you think and what Gary Neville said because while players are coached, and we look at Manchester City for example, this season Kevin De Bruyne is bowing out but when Manchester City were on top of the game they have a style of play but they still have a freedom in the way that they play. I can't imagine…

Does Jack Grealish have a freedom? I mean this has been a big discussion. does Jack Grealish have a freedom? I think he has a certain freedom. Everybody has a certain role to play in a team but Pep Guardiola isn't going to put a player in a straight jacket. Everybody has to play in a certain way but he's not gonna force him to you know if he you know in the final third Jack Grealish can do what he likes. I absolutely completely and not that I'm allowed an

opinion obviously but I completely and utterly on this one occasion disagree with you. Yeah and I would second Chappers non opinion that he's not allowed. So every time Jack Grealish gets the ball... I think there are a lot of wingers who are not allowed to dribble. Or it's not allowed, it's discouraged from doing it. It's the right timing it is all to the structure it depends on what state of the players, whereabouts, how he receives it, who's in the box. Does he have to come inside again, circulate back around? And that's what it is, Chris. It is. Other players, like a doku, he has the license to then go and do it. So it's different footballers at different times. De Bruyne over the years had the license, others couldn't.

You make that pass and you make that mistake because he could do special things. So he is in a structure. That's a fact, that's what Jack is. It is in a structure but everything changes. You don't have to play a certain ball, you have your pattern but you don't have to play a certain pass because the manager tells you to play a certain pass. a moment. How many times have we seen de Bruyne split the defence with a brilliant pass? Lots and lots of times. How many times have we seen that? And that isn't because he's told to do it,

it's in that moment he's good enough to see it and play that particular pass and he spots somebody moving. So you have to be a pattern to play. If other people make those passes and they don't come off, they're in trouble. If other players in Pep's set up, if they make them passes more regularly and don't get them where they need to be, he doesn't accept it. That's the point because he'll say there's only Kevin who can do it to the level. But is there not also the other element of it that, yeah, de Bruyne has the license in that case and maybe others have got elements that they're allowed as well.

So it's not micromanagement then? No, no, but to do that. But the lack of expression is that they are playing those balls because the runs are being made and the runs are learnt by rote. The movement is this is what you do in this situation when the ball is in this quadrant or whatever, this is the run that you make if you're the left winger or the centre forward or the number 10. That's where everything is systematised. Everything changes as the game is going on, you know, on the way the ball is passed on, on a defender's positioning. When somebody's slightly out of sync, out of kilter.

That's different. That's in that moment where micromanagement to me seems to mean that you have to do something a certain way. I think when players get into the final third, and I understand your point about Jack Grealish, Mark, to a certain extent, but you can't tell me he has been told to never take a defender on. No? He wouldn't have been told never to take a defender on, but he's certainly been encouraged to cut inside of pants. But that's what micromanagement is, isn't it? You can't, you know, you need to do something in a certain way, isn't it? You have to do it this way. need to do something in a certain way, isn't it? You have to do it this way. I don't know if that's the only way. I mean, micromanagement is obviously a triggering

word for you, Chris, but I don't know whether that's the only definition of micromanagement. I don't know whether that's the right word, but I would say that there is less freedom of expression for players than there used to be. Based on what? Based on watching them play football. Look at Madison, in and out at Spurs because Ang clearly doesn't particularly think he works in that system. The coach's vision has become the be all and end all for most clubs. Thank you Rory. Thank you for having me. Yeah that's alright. Chris? Thanks for having me. That's all right. Good.

Also, thank you Michael, in particular. Thank you for having me again. Well, it's a pleasure. We should end every Monday night like that. Thank you very much for listening. We're back tomorrow with Women's Football Weekly in reaction to Arsenal Real Madrid in the Champions League. Welcome to the Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you

inside Formula One like never before. I'm Matt Magindy and thanks to my exclusive access I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. This week Matt will take you on a deep dive into race strategy. He speaks to members of the Red Bull team that probably wake up in a cold sweat shouting, box, box. I still get nervous before a race. All it takes is one safety car of an odd time and it completely changes the complexion of things. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the inside track wherever you get your podcasts.