Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Marinakis’ outburst & Trent’s not so fond farewell

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Is it acceptable for an owner to enter the pitch? After Nottingham Forest owner Evangelos Marinakis’ outburst on the pitch at Nuno Espirito Santo, the Monday Night Club discuss whether the owner should be allowed on to the pitch, or whether they should stay quiet. Theo Walcott joins Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Mark Chapman to discuss the actions of the Nottingham Forest owner. The Anfield Wrap’s John Gibbons drops by to give his views on Liverpool fans booing Trent Alexander-Arnold – why are Liverpool fans booing him and is it fair? They discuss the send-off for the Liverpool full-back and how he’ll be feeling ahead of his expected move to Real Madrid. With Mikel Arteta’s comments over the last week – the panel discuss what’s behind Arsenal’s recent form and the reason behind the comments. Plus, they react to an angry Ruben Dias’ after Manchester City’s 1-1 draw to Southampton. And with Carlo Ancelotti joining Brazil, will he be a success?TIME CODES:01:30 – Evangelos Marinakis’ outburst 20:45 – Trent Alexander-Arnold’s Anfield reception 35:32 – Arsenal 45:55 – Ruben Dias’ comments 49:10 – Carlo Ancelotti to BrazilBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries next weekend: Sat 1630 FA Cup Final Crystal Palace v Man City, Sun 1330 Women’s FA Cup Final Chelsea v Man Utd on Radio 5 Sports Extra, Sun 1415 West Ham v Nottingham Forest in the Premier League, Sun 1630 Arsenal v Newcastle in the Premier League.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Welcome to the Monday Night Club MNC at bbc.co.uk. Rick sent us an email. Can we have a shout for the Oystermen's FA Vars win yesterday? Of course the Oystermen are Chris. Whitstable. Well done. And you, you're probably seen because you were doing a CSS issue across all the football yesterday. No I just, I just, the FA Vars is a competition very close to my heart Mark. My dad used to play in that. Good. Big. A quarter of the town turned up at Wembley to see the biggest victory in the club's 140 year history.

Open top fishing boat celebrations in the harbour. This is more your area, Chris, really. Aren't all fishing boats open top? Am I showing my fishing boat ignorance? No, the ones that I know of are, but they're maybe parts of the country where they differ. Yeah, I don't the ones that I know of are but they're maybe maybe yeah parts of the country where they differ Yeah, I don't know the one that's parked outside your front garden I'll have to work a few more years

If they walk up with us Rory Smith with us as well a lot to get through but first of all from a player's point of view Theo would you be impressed with your owner storming across the pitch to talk to your manager? No I mean at times players don't even end up actually meeting the owners to be honest at times you don't really come face to face with them I think it's an interesting one because obviously he's a man in charge of everything involving in the club but the football side of it I understand his passion and everything but this is where I feel needs to be done behind closed doors. Look,

you understand that he's frustrated, I get that but I just think visually I feel it wants people to talk about him and I get it but for me it's something that needs to be done in the background, no one else needs to see it, no one else needs to comment on it and it needs to be put to bed. Would you rather then have an owner who cared as opposed to an owner who was absent? I would personally prefer an owner who would be more invested in coming to see you at training if it's up and around the place, even if it's in the gym, even if it's on the training fields, match day, to be quite frankly honest, I wouldn't want to do anything to do with

them because that's our domain, that's where we've got to do our work. But as an owner, if you want to see what everything's right going into games, go watch the training. Go see the way the manager is around the players, the way the players actually respect the club as well and that you'll get more of a sense for how it's like a football club at the training ground I think football games are always very emotional when I think it's hard to judge You know the characters, you know in that sense me personally. I don't know how you feel about it Chris I actually don't mind what he what he did Maranekis I do understand what Theo says and I do I do take your point

But as you you quite rightly said, Mark, there are a lot of owners, I think we've discussed on the Monday nightclub over the years, who don't really give a damn about their clubs. All they're worried about is money and Maronakis, I think, what was the motive for him storming on the pitch? I think there was a real overreaction yesterday in the way people sort of viewed this. It was because of anything tactical which Nuno did badly or whatever. It was because of a misunderstanding between the medical team of Wanyi and Nuno.

Let me give you what Chris, not you, put on social media. Because this probably backs your point up a bit here Chris. So on social media Chris said, Marinakis is 100% in the right. Dress it up how you like, we've bottled it. A window as a Champions League club with our PSR position could have been club changing and we've blown it due to abysmal game management.

He has every right to be angry. He's a winner and it shows I wouldn't say they've bottled it. I think that's a fair viewpoint But but what happened, you know when they were subbed out basically or they were making their final substitution they're three you have three windows to sub on a Player and a one year just crashed into the posters. There's an offside. The offside should have been given. It was a clear offside. That wasn't. And this is the frustration with those incidents when the assistants don't flag. And then he crashes into the post. It's nasty. But, you know, I was at the game. So Nottingham Forest are making a substitution and Nuno puts

his thumb up to Awanye and the medical team, and Awanye and the medical team put their thumbs up back to say, yeah, he's okay, he's going to come back on. And with the way the situation of the game, Leicester had obviously got back into it, so Awanye had just gone on. And so Nuno was thinking, well, we'll put Jota Silver on, it's for Elliot Anderson, and he did that, we'll put Jota Silver on it's for Elliot Anderson. And he did that. So he put him on and then like 30 seconds later, a one year's lying down on his back and you're thinking, well, how's he going to go on?

But they've already made the substitution. So that's why Marinakis was angry. And Nuno was so sort of calm for the remaining seven or eight minutes. If that was Alex Ferguson, and that was Andy Cole or Dwight York who have done such a thing I can imagine sir Alex Ferguson running along the touchline and throttling them because a one year when he hobbled back on the pitch they were a man down he couldn't move. It wouldn't have held their fitness to get them back on would it? It does kind of showcase the shortcomings of the thumbs up as a method of communication

don't you think? Just what were the medical staff trying to convey? Was it like when you see a friend of yours who's driving and you just give them the thumbs up to say, hi, nice to see you. What were they trying to convey? What did they think? Why can't you not have players? Why can't you not have the guys on the sideline?

Because it is at grassroot levels when a player gets hurt, for instance, they say, right, can you just give me a few laps to see what you think? Why wouldn't they not just test it? It's such a simple dynamic But they so quickly want to get these players back on it and in the meantime nothing happens when that players off anyway So why can you not just test it see that's the side of it? Which is the confusion bit which would frustrate me as well to be fair especially as you're playing your teammate You come saying you just come on you can play. So what are you even wasting your time? So I think the player's gotta take a bit of responsibility

in himself because he knows his body well. No one else knows his body. Test it before coming on. He could hear on the TV how much that hurt when the one you ran into the post. Like it was a full on kind of you winced moment. And yeah, I think that's right Theo, that they clearly rushed it.

It is very obviously a crock up, isn't it? Basically. But, and that's right Theo that that they clearly rushed it It is very obviously a cock up isn't it basically but and that's what my maranac is has said and on Instagram I think that that's why he came on the pitch. He was kind of frustrated by that Do you think he would have done that has not in him forest won that game three two? Because I don't I think it was much more But they didn't it was what was at stake and May have been the frustration because they were third in the Premier League in cruising and they have fallen away. The guy said they bottled it. I'm not so sure. I think their season has fizzled out a bit. But the whole point, the anger from Maronakis came

because he cared. This is a guy who's invested a fortune into this club and he saw Champions League football as being really realistic because it was. There were two seasons of hanging on in the Premier League. This wasn't on Nuno and everybody assumed it had gone on and berated Nuno. That wasn't the case. It was such a careless thing to happen. When you think Leicester get the equaliser, you would expect eight, nine minutes to go

for Nottingham Forest to really pin them in, they'd put on a Wanyi up with wood and they were going to pepper the box and that couldn't have been the case because a Wanyi, he just wasn't fit when he went back on. So that was stupid from a Wanyi, stupid from the medical team as you and Theo have quite rightly pointed out. Hang on a minute, hang on. Well it was. Well, he's all right and he's not alright.

So if I do that, are you alright? I'm alright and I'm not. Well I'm not here to debate the merits of a thumbs up. But it's more the kind of, I think Theo's right really in all of this. If you think you're alright, he never once tried to run did he actually? I mean that's, if you think you're alright try and run surely that's what it but if a player then says we don't know whether he said I'm alright or not but if he says he's alright what was he doing saying hi to no but I don't know whether the put we don't it was the medical staff who put the thumbs up it's just what no No, and a one-year. I was there. A one-year did it as well. Were you in the forest then, Chris? You're better than that.

It was in the first minute of second half stoppage time. It wasn't like there was 20 minutes to go. But as much as you can understand Marinatis' frustration, and I'm sure Nuno's frustration, with a miscommunication, and I'm the same as Chappers I'm a little bit reluctant to say that the doctors were being stupid. I think it's clearly just a misunderstanding I'm not sure that excuses Marinakis marching onto the pitch and as much as the Chris the Forrest fan the other Chris the Forrest fan from social media Said kind of he's 100% right, you know, he's put all this money into into the team

This is the this is the flip side of what you get with Evangelo's Maronakis. In Greece, he paraded in front of the Panathinaikos Ultras with an Olympiakos scarf on, which is a derby that is played out at considerably higher intensity than the East Midlands derby. And he is there to be provocative and he is there to kind of rub it in Panathinaikos' faces. This is the side of him that you get as well as the money and the passion and the commitment. Is Marinakis thinks it's about him? He's an owner who thinks the club is his, it belongs to him. Well I'm not being funny Roy, but

you take on current evidence, you take that every day of the week bearing in mind where Forrest are now compared to when he took over. Oh we've got a bit of a Bolshion who likes to wind people up and gets a bit angry. Well, we'll have that thanks rather than an owner who leaves us 18th in the championship. Yeah, but that's fine, Chappers. Yeah, take your point completely. And it's obviously I'm not saying that there is any world in which a kind of absentee landlord owner is preferable. But what happens if and it's only if Marinakis is really annoyed with Nuno and decides that they have bottled Champions League qualification and Saxon What happens that do we?

That was the case that that wasn't what happened Yesterday and and that's you know, this has been misinterpreted and here's another one Rory Would you I mean as a football fan, would you prefer to see a known? Storm onto the pitch and show that passion, or would you prefer the glazers? I don't think it's a binary choice, I think there are other types of owner. I think owners to be honest should be a little bit like Victorian children, seen and not heard. I don't understand publicly why you would, I think it's really unhealthy for football if owners turn themselves into the central characters, because you are, this is not what we talked about the whole

time, that clubs are social institutions, they belong ultimately spiritually to the fans, the players and the managers are passing through, so are the owners, when they sign up, when they buy the clubs they say oh we're custodians of the great flame, of the great spirit of this team and then they're marching on the pitch just they don't like a decision, they've got giant golden thrones installed at the city ground, that's not, this isn't good that the the even the Birmingham owner giving the team a dressing down after whichever was the FA trophy final which one was it they lost the Peterborough? The EFL trophy. That is not it's unbecoming of an owner it's not this is not a sport that is defined by owners they should not be the central characters and to be

honest we should not be building them up to be the central characters. Do you ever get angry? You know, do you ever get annoyed? Well, you've got to understand as well as a player on that pitch who's obviously played that 90 minutes and they understand it's frustrating for themselves to then have the owner come on and then you've got to act in a certain way because you have the man who's in control of everything that goes on the club. You can't lose your head as much as you want to, but he's allowed to do that visually of everyone. And I just feel that was a bit, as a player,

I'd feel really uncomfortable if that happened, if I was put in that situation. And I'm not someone before to have confrontations, but certain players might. And then the backlash of that, but Nuna I felt dealt with it incredibly well considering because no one expected them to be there, whether it was did Maronakis expect them

to be in Champions League? Damn right he didn't. But I get the frustration, but I just feel like it needs to be flying closed doors personally. Does it depend Theo, who the owner is and what their personality is? So I'm thinking, obviously you were at Everton where the late Bill Kenwright was synonymous with that club for 20 years. Now Bill Kenwright and more, and Bill Kenwright a lot of criticism from from Everton fans at times Bill Kenwright was an Everton fan through and through and obviously cared

He may he may not have made the best decisions from time to time now if Bill Kenwright had come to talk to you in The way that Bill would talk to you That's what that is. Is that is that different? Bill Cameron's very different because I always remember he always used to take his time and he'd phone you. You'd be on a Sunday evening and you'll get a phone call and he'd just want to check in or he'd just want to see how the family is or he'd just see how's your week looking. He was very different and I felt it was a bit more personal that I actually wanted to

know the player a little bit differently away from the football, which I kind of liked. And I think that side of it helps with players feeling good about themselves, going into it knowing that someone actually cares about something else than just their playing ability. And he did it differently, very differently. I mean, yeah, he was a very bubbly character as well, but he was, you know, he's a big fan of me, so I was playing. Yeah.

I was on his good books. Was that the first, was that he, was he the only owner who did that in your career? Yeah. Yeah. So, so that was the first time I, obviously I had David Dean back in the day, but yeah that was the first personal when I had actually phone calls and it was quite often, so I'm very grateful for that as well. Did the players talk about that as a kind of,

were all the players happy, did they all react the same to you as that? See I wouldn't be aware that, I'm sure he would have done exactly the same to all the other players but I wouldn't be savvy to any of those to you as that see I wouldn't be aware that I'm sure he would have done exactly same to all the other players But I wouldn't be savvy to any of those conversations as players We would have kept it to ourselves really because of personal things or whatever it was But look you could share or over share as much you want to bill I thought easy was a bit of an open book so I felt comfortable around him So I think that's the good thing is I felt comfortable around it because he he was always present in that sense So I felt good for me

I understand how you framing it Rory and there's partly me just being devil's advocate here, but if Jack Walker had had a problem with something at Blackburn, bearing in mind Blackburn's turnaround was down to Jack Walker. I mean, obviously some players as well, but you know, Jack Walker was the man who turned around Blackburn's fortunes. Does Jack Walker not have the right to question the operations of the club? No one's in there of the right which was saying do you have the right to play that out? Publicly if you run a widget factory and you're not happy with the performance of the stuff on the floor of the widget factory

Do you get to ball them out in front of all their colleagues? No, no, you don't you don't get to do that That is we do get to do it, but it's poor management. They might all resign So I think he has the right to do it But that doesn't mean he that he should do it or that we should sit here and say isn't it great that evangelism evangelos maranches is so passionate that he stormed down from his golden throne onto the pitch and He was either take your pick, he was either criticizing the medical staff or he was having a go at his manager in in front of what 35,000 people? That's not great is it? But that you've totally misread this, what would the players

have honestly said Rory? Professional sports people in that moment so if I'm a Nottingham Forest player yesterday, didn't get lucky enough to play for my boyhood club. If I'm a Nottingham Forest player yesterday on that pitch and Maronakis came on and was angry about that, I'd be thinking good on him because that was really dumb to stick your thumbs up and say that he was okay to continue. That's what I would be thinking. It's as simple as that. They deserve everything they get and I understand why the owner's angry. He's pumped his money into the club. He's there, his visual, you can argue the merits of him going on the pitch, but he lost

it for a second. If I'm a Nottingham Forest fan, I like seeing that. He actually cares and if I'm a player, I thinking well, it was they were stupid You know if he wasn't right, he shouldn't have put his thumb up simple I mean he don't talk to what to our one year in the medical staff I don't know but that was irrelevant. I saw what happened. He put his thumb up and you know, you can say What does the thumb up mean? We all know what a thumb up means and that was I'm okay So then the substitution was made Maranac is quite within his rights anybody sitting in that stadium watching it on television, if they would have understood

what had actually happened, I think that they would have accepted that that was Daft. He put on Instagram afterwards, today is a day for celebration because Nottingham Forest is now guaranteed to be competing on the European stage once again. A promise I made to our supporters when we achieved promotion. Everybody, coaching staff, players, supporters and myself were frustrated around the injury of Tywo and the medical staff's misjudgment. This is natural. This is a demonstration of the passion we feel for our club. Let's all be grateful, passionate and keep on dreaming. I mean, the one thing in all of this, Theo, the way Nuno dealt with everything afterwards, you know, the disappointment of a draw, the misjudgment

on the injury, the Marianakis onslaught, he dealt with everything brilliantly didn't he? That we could see, right, and I'm telling you the right now it would have been a completely different story in that dressing room. It would have been a completely different story today when there's meetings, if he's having one today for the lads or whatever, but because he knows it's not the best time to react in that way straight away and I think that's why they've done so well because He's someone who actually takes a step back thinks about a performance thinks about his own performance as well before he then Engages it with his players

And I think that's why he's such a good manager and that's why he's done so well because he can take that time to express himself in a different manner but I guarantee you won't be happy in that meeting room. Managers need to take their time with things, players do remember that at times. People who live through the 80s and 90s are very keen to make a point about one individual in particular, Gucci on YouTube, if Brian Clough was still the manager, Maronakis would have found himself on the end of a right hook, Andy and Nottingham on text, our greatest ever manager punched a couple of fans on the pitch. The owner having a shout on the pitch is barely an incident around these parts and Pauline Toulouse on the text, which is 85058. It has become clear this evening that Rory has

never been anywhere near a widget factory. There is one final thing on this then we'll move on to Trent Alexander-Arnold. From a slight pedant perspective Rory and Kieran Maguire put this out on social media that he thought it was odd what happened on the pitch given that a blind trust was set up to run Nottingham Forest a couple of weeks ago. So that removed Maronakis from control. So in theory, he actually had no right to be anywhere near the playing surface. Yeah, and this is obviously because Forest will be in Europe next season, we know now,

and possibly in the same competition as Olympiakos, the other club that Maronakis owns and runs. I haven't checked the Greek Super League table, that's my fault, I apologise. I don't know whether they'll be in the Champions League or the Europa League. It's almost like UEFA's rules on owning more than one team don't really work, that's what I would say. It's almost like all of the little things, you had it with the Red Bull clubs as well, they moved some people around and said that the boards had no football control over the Red Bull

Leipzig board members who were exactly the same people as the Red Bull Salzburg board members actually were completely different and there was no relationship between the clubs and you just went, yeah that's fine, just great. Maybe they gave a sort of an ambiguous thumbs up to it. What we've learned here is that the thumbs up can be really ambiguous. Women's Football Weekly on the Football Daily. I'm Ben Haynes. I'm Ellen White. And I'm Jen Beattie.

And on Tuesdays on the Football Daily, we bring you the Women's Football Weekly. Really pleased with the fact we are now champions and we got this title. We had time to enjoy with the fans and we'll have some time with friends and family after the game as we dive headfirst into all things WSL and beyond in the women's game. Women's football weekly only on the football daily. Listen now on BBC sounds. The football daily podcast with Mark Chapman. Rory Smith here, Walcott, Chris Sutton on the Monday night club this evening. Let's talk Trent Alexander-Arnold yesterday, who was brought on at Anfield during the two-wall

draw with Arsenal and did receive some boos. We'll start before we get the thoughts of everybody by hearing from Arnestlot. I've said to everyone, every interview I had, the good thing about living in Europe is that everybody has the right to have their own opinion. You can express it in the way you want to. That's why living in Europe is such a privilege. It's one of the reasons why it's such a privilege to live in Europe. Today I heard big opinions, but the only opinion I have is I owe it to the players, to the

fans to win a game of football. If Conor Bradley can't go on because he's tired, I have Trent Alexander-Rodriguez on the bench. I bring him in because we want to win this game of football. He was very close for us to win it because he had two or three passes. What makes him so special? For me, it's quite simple that if I want to win I bring him in and that's what I did. And for the fans they are entitled to have their own opinion. I would imagine he would be pretty upset about that though having been here for 20 years. I'm not too sure because like you said there were also a lot of people that were very positive and longer it went on I think when the moment he took a free kick I didn't hear anyone being negative anymore. I'm not too sure. I think he was the first one to say

that he accepts the reactions of every single fan. But he also prefers us not to be distracted by it and I think that's what you saw today. The team was not at all distracted. We were trying to do everything to win a game of football. Even when he came on and the reactions were mixed, still the team was ready to fight to bring the win over the line. That was on the slot. Let me read you out a couple of Liverpool fans on the BBC Sport website club page have said, Ben left on a free to a team that had beaten us in two Champions League finals, refused to do media for the last two years, signed Real Madrid shirts last year, says he wants to captain the club but then says he'd prefer the Ballon d'Or.

I think we were quite right to boo him. Carl, fans are right to boo him. 99% of Scouse Liverpool fans get it. It means something different being part of the city and the club all these fans saying it's wrong are generally out of towners who simply don't and can never understand if you don't understand the booze then it's clear this is not your club John Gibbons from the Amphil rap joins us so do you understand genuinely I don't mean to set you up here, I'm not trying to set you up, but do you understand those two points? A little bit. I think there's a lot of false narratives being thrown in.

There's a lot of talk about, well, it's because he's leaving on a free transfer. I don't mean that helped Raheem Sterling very much or indeed Phil Coutinho. And I think there's plenty of people who have Scouse accents who wish him well and there's others who are pretty angry and so I wouldn't I wouldn't make this a regional thing I think it is more some people are very angry that a player that they like and a player that is from the city is leaving and that is there's sometimes the way it goes. I have to say as well it came through yesterday that whilst there were the boos and the boos were loud but boos tend to be loud there were others who then tried to drown out the boos

weren't there? Yeah I was I was on the carpet it was it was a real mix there wasn't too much booing around me but you could obviously hear it and then there was others who were getting pretty angry and that anger ranges from this just isn't the right thing to do that people just saying this is what what Liverpool fans should do to he's wearing the shirts you support him to other people who just genuinely think that a young man if he wants to go and live in another country should be allowed to. And so there's, even within the people who don't think there should be booing, it's more complicated.

I think that there may be sometimes, you know, it is kind of made out really. And then there's other people who are just kind of stood there wishing the whole thing wasn't happening, which is probably sort of the majority, really. But standing there awkwardly, which was generally my position, is not a difficult...

It's a hard thing to pick up on the telly. The sand that doesn't carry as well. We had a couple of callers into 606 last night who were suggesting, and I hadn't thought of this, this was a sort of age thing. The older Liverpool fans were applauding and, I mean, did they have a point? Because that surprised me a little bit that yeah it's a good point and there's not there's not again a perfect split I know there's obviously younger people who didn't boo and then there's my friends that I do quite frankly should know better but then I would say it is a it is a decent point that generally it is younger supporters who are the angriest and I think for them they can remember the dream of playing for Liverpool, they can

remember this, you know for so many of them they will give anything to play for the club just once and in their mind they've got someone who doesn't just play for Liverpool but has got the potential to win trophies for Liverpool in the future and potentially captain Liverpool in the future and I think there's a feeling that he is throwing away their dream or is turning the back on their dream or is ultimately too good. I think the worst thing you can be accused of in Liverpool and I'm sure it's not the only city but the worst thing you can be accused of in Liverpool is oh you think you're too good for us do you? And I think there's a little bit of that going on with Trent at the moment,

especially with the younger generation. Do you know what it is as well for me? I think the underlying question is as well, is Trent okay? Because we normify this as well, and we don't really know the aftermath of what it's gonna do with years gone by. We talk about mental health, with a lot of players who like to hold in,

and men particularly as well, who like to hold things in, not communicate to each other. And obviously his teammates, Robertson's come out, and he's protected him in the right way, which he should. But essentially this would have damaged him in some way at some point. And I just feel like for me, I was a Liverpool fan growing up, I really was.

I couldn't imagine booing any player regardless of their situation. I totally understand why he's moved. He's done everything he can achieve at the club, apart from like you're saying, being captain and all these things that he said. But look, there's no loyalty in football. There really isn't, trust me, there really isn't.

And being part of that is, for me, I just found it quite disturbing. I really did, I found it quite, I'm really uncomfortable. I found it uncomfortable. Were you booed when you went back to Southampton with Arsenal? No. No. And I scored twice against him, I wasn't booed when you went back to Southampton with Arsenal? No. No. And I scored twice against and I wasn't booed. Right. One time there was no fans so I couldn't get booed.

Right, okay. Were you ever booed when you went back to Arsenal? No. Never been booed. Right. Wow. Okay. All right. I don't mean why I'm surprised by that but that's... Only Tottenham. Tottenham booed me quite a lot. But you expect that, don't mean why I'm surprised by that, but that's... Only Tottenham. Tottenham booed me quite a lot and say some other things as well. But you expect that, don't you? Exactly, but that's fine. That's a different thing. But again, I just feel as well, it's just uncomfortable. I just feel like there's going to be an aftermath of what could really cause something for future reference. It might not

be Trent, but it might be someone else. I just think we're really normalising it with younger generations. Social media, I get it, I understand, but I just feel there would be things that we wouldn't be aware of that people think they know players because they see them on a pitch, they know how they like day in day out, they don't. People think they know players, but they really don't. On that, and John maybe you, but Rory and Chris as well can come in. Has there been a previous, can you think of a previous example that feels as much of a lightning rod

as this move has become? I think there has been a similar anger. I mentioned Raheem Sterling before. That was a sort of similar case. And that was a real, or the time when it was similar with Liverpool. It was like, oh, you think you're it was similar to Liverpool, it was like, oh, you think you're too good for us?

He left when he was sort of very young, but obviously the slight difference was that he wasn't from Liverpool. He moved when he was a younger player, you know, moved when he was about 15 to Liverpool. But there was levels of anger between them. But it's just such a unique case in a lot of ways because he is from the city and also he's leaving, but he's still here. And so it's kind of like a breakup where you're still living together

and it's frosty in the kitchen. It sort of feels a little bit like that really. And you're like, when is this gonna be over? And I think for most Liverpool fans, it is a little bit, okay, when are you moving out? When the key is coming? It is kind of that really. And so it's's I think there's

lots of things that combine for this to be quite a unique situation and also the fact that the league is is won in a strange way kind of like you know you'd like to think if we were still going for the league title people would have reacted a little bit differently but who knows we're all lunatics. I was just thinking Rooney when Rooney went from Everton to United probably got it when he went back to Goodison Tevez when Tevez went from Manchester United to Manchester City got it Saul Campbell obviously is probably the biggest example Anyhow, go on Rory

Well the ones I was going to say are a little bit more sort of niche and pretentious Roberto Baggio from Fiorentina to Juventus, they burnt his shirt Lewis Enrique, Lewis Figo, Trent's had it pretty easy compared to Figo to be fair I think that is one thing that has been misunderstood. I think I had a pig's head thrown in didn't it? That was a couple of years later to be fair. Well, well, that's alright Two years afterwards, it's fine It's not it's not unique in the sense that it you know, lots of transfers do cause a lot of a lot of aggravation I think the there is an element that has been misunderstood which is that this idea that it's not it's not unique in the sense that it you know lots of transfers do cause a lot of a lot of aggravation

I think the there is an element that has been misunderstood which is that this idea that he's not leaving for a rival club and that is true because he's not leaving for a Premier League team and you can Debate where the Liverpool well, you know where Liverpool and Real Madrid sit in the respective kind of football hierarchy But they are teams that have met each other in Champions League finals twice in the last what seven years I think it's fair enough to say that Liverpool probably the biggest fans of the Real Madrid mystique and that that I suspect is a little bit of a extra salt on it my main reaction to it is is partly that it's really appropriate because Trent I think I can't Harry Kane maybe maybe Rashford. I've never known a player who's talked about as much as Trent

I've never known player of his's talked about as much as Trent. I've never known a player of his ability who, like so deep into his career, you'll still get people who say, well, he's not really good. And you think, well, look at everything he's done. Look at all the obvious things you've seen him do. You can clearly see he's extremely talented. Obviously a weapon for any team that he's in. So it's fitting to me really that he's going with all this noise. And the other thing is that it's a real shame And I don't know whether give oh feels the same It isn't a shame that there's not a noise that people can just make when they're sad because that's ultimately what it's about Isn't it that everyone's quite sad and they're sad for him to be going they're sad to see

Maybe one of the totems of this team leave. They're sad that he's going on a free transfer They're sad that he's going to Real Madrid people are sad and it's just how that Manifests, I think that would be a thumbs down Rory wouldn't it? We've established the ambiguity of these hand signals. There's lots of hand signals that you just don't know what they mean for it. This might be a really stupid question but what would have happened had Mo Salah said he's leaving and Van Dijk are not signed again? What would the reaction from fans been, from Liverpool fans have been towards them? Yeah, I think it's interesting because Mo Salah

was very clever in that he kind of claimed all along that he wanted to stay. I don't think he didn't want to stay enough to sign a contract that didn't suit him, of course, but he was very sort of vocal on that. And so I think often these things are a bit of a PR war really. And Liverpool are quick to criticize our owners

in terms of, you know, not having quite have a deep enough pockets or deep enough pockets but not willing to put their hands further enough in them. I think it is fair to say. Virgil was obviously very clear as well. And so for a while, none, no, neither of them, well, none of them, three of them had signed contracts and Trent was the one who was already getting it

in the, in their neck. And the other two were, were held up as, or they've said they sort of really want to stay early. And so I think it would have been different really, because I think if, if Salah or Virgil would have gone, then I think it would have been a, would have been blamed on the club like an ambition, whereas I think for Trent, it is the feeling, I think it's slightly different

because he's a younger player, but also, I think Liverpool fans think this was always this big grand plan that he was gonna go to Real Madrid, and I don't know if that's true, but that's kind of how it's been made out really. So I think this narrative's been kind of forming for a while really, which is another reason why it's probably as aggressive as what it did, because it feels like it's been a of forming for a while really, which is another reason why it's probably as aggressive

as what it did, because it feels like it's been a long time coming. I was just gonna say actually, can you imagine on the last day of the season when they do the trophy and they do the medal, how Trent's gonna be feeling himself and his reaction? Because there's a story there straight away, because look, we don't know what he's gonna do.

I feel like he's so, it'd be professional, but you can imagine him doing something different just taking his medal and walking on and not being part of the I feel like he's so professional, be professional, but you can imagine him doing something different just taking his med on walking on and not being part of the celebrations. And that's the aftermath, which I'm saying about, which could cause this. So look, we'll see. When they play Palace, we'll see.

He'll be interested to watch. Everyone will be watching that day, I'm sure. What I want to say about Trent yesterday is that I thought he played well when he came on and it wasn't like he was over-competiting or anything. He wasn't like, sometimes you could say, oh, I'm going to show them. I thought he, I thought he played a normally high level performance.

And then after the game, he did a bit of a lap on her and hung back a bit. And, you know, got a bit of stick for that, but he, he took that. And I thought that was actually pretty brave of him, you know? And I think it was acknowledging the people who were trying to support him, even though he knew it would be a bit of a lightning rod to the others. And so I thought that was brave of him in you know, and I think it was acknowledging the people who were trying to support him, even though he knew it would be a bit of a lightning rod to the others and so I thought that was brave of him in that situation because it would have been the easiest thing in the world for them to just go straight off. The Palace game will be interesting, but then there's people talking about the parade, does he be on the parade? But what's clear to me

is his teammates really support him and they will understand, you know, you were talking before Theo about, you know, loyalty and football and things like that, and they will understand, you know, you were talking before Theo about, you know, loyalty and football and things like that. And they will share your experiences and your outlook because they have lived the life that you had. But for us football fans, it is kind of different. The players will want him there. The players will want him there at Palace and the players will want him there in the parade because they know that he's contributed to the league success and he's their friend and so they all sort of want him there really and so that adds a bit of an extra thing that I think as fans we need to bear in mind where we're

just saying well we'll keep him away, keep him away because we don't want to see him. Thank you very much for coming on John, you seem to be incredibly available since Liverpool won the league title for any show that I'm doing but thank you thank you thank you very much coming on see you soon see you soon. Cheers John, give us a friendly Anfield rap. Some of the things that Mikael Arteta has said, we were discussing this on Premier League Sunday after being knocked out by Paris Saint-Germain, Arsenal are 100% the best team in the Champions League going into Sunday's game at Anfield. Liverpool have won the title with less points than we have in the last two seasons, with the point to the past two seasons we

have two Premier League titles. Is it faintly ridiculous? I mean it's distracting from the performance at times as well. I think that's, he's learned that very very wisely with Arsene Wenger, would always deflect away from his team and it all come back to him because he wants people to obviously, he wants to be the story and I get it to protect his players but ultimately the players have taken their foot off the in the gas in certain games of the season and I think you know with the Champions League game he was clear to see that the first 15 minutes of both games cost them, it really did. Obviously not having that focal point which I feel like at times he's been restricted

in what he can and cannot do in the transfer window as well. I think that's another element, but we are dealing with a team where he expects perfection and there haven't been like that. And I think he'd be clearly saying that to his players. We know this because, you know, he talks about, he likes action, said reaction, and that's not an arse the way. And they've gone away from what he's been all about and it's been a different kind of us or last few weeks it's really taken their eye off the ball they really have and I think that it's really clear by the performance since recently but look they did it obviously about Declan Rice of Liverpool so not too bad

considering their champions right. I think that he's really feeling the pressure so I mean so he must be must be. The stuff about the Champions League, best team in the Champions League, was just utter nonsense. Even the stuff, if you don't win it, you have to be the best of the rest. I don't think Arsenal fans really want to hear nonsense like that. This was the season where they were going to make that next step in the Premier League. And he said himself, I think to sort of try and rectify the thing he said about the Liverpool points situation, he said that they're taking a step backwards and that would be a worry for me. But I think I said last week on the Monday night club, I still feel they're a club moving in the right direction.

Arsenal, I don't think they're far off it. The problem is this is this at the Groundhog Day from last season and Groundhog Day from the season before, you know, Arsenal are a nearly club. But I think there are things he can affect and should have affected. And the striker situation being the most obvious one, you know, that he should have bought a striker and he didn't and that's an issue which everybody's saying, which we'll need to rectify. It's a massive summer for him. James Geerbran wrote in a brilliant article in the Times on Arteta, which is really thought

provoking, but he said, Rory, in this, at times this season are tetras given the impression of a man who sees football as an academic exercise that owes him and his team the justice of a perfectly fair, logical, predictable environment in which to equip themselves. Yeah, I think it's a good point. I think the key bit there is that that sense that football owes him something. That seems to be the thread through a lot of those slightly strange statements that he's made in the last few weeks. And I think that you understand that, you know, in the aftermath of the PSG defeat, he's really disappointed, he's really hurt,

they were so close in both games, you know, they created a load of chances. Another day, they score early in the Pate de Paris and it's a totally different game. You can understand why he is eager to, not lash out, but like to kind of project the reality that he would like to be true. And it's a Guadalajara trick as well to kind of remind everybody of your legacy. That is the thing that Pep does all of the time. You know, there was, what was the thing about seven straight semi-finals after the FA Cup, after they got to the FA Cup semi? He kind of said, you know, no team has ever made, ever won seven straight FA Cup semi-fin kind of said, you know, no team has ever won seven straight FA Cup

semi finals. Remember Chris sort of laughing at, you know, the idea that the players are into the dressing room saying, oh, lad, this is great, it's our seventh straight semi final win. But that is one of the things that Pep does a lot. He tells everyone how great he is and Arteta, I think, has done that fairly consistently the last month or so, as Theo says. Arsenal's forming the lead, it has just dived off a cliff. Like there's what, one winning six now in the lead which is in a running, even allowing for the distraction of a Champions League semi is not very good at all to be perfectly

honest. But we've talked about this before Theo and the other point of that article was because Arsenal are drilled so well and to within an inch of you know everything being perfect that then when you throw the random nature of football in a goalkeeper having a world-class performance and an unlucky red card and then goal bouncing off someone's backside whatever it may be they're perfectly allowed in football but you can't plan for them and therefore they then become an excuse rather than you taking responsibility for whatever failure it is in not actually getting over the line in a certain game or a competition. Yeah, I mean it's in the same pattern as players as well, particularly I would say younger

players that would always wanna try and maybe find an excuse. And it's the pattern that, you know, I've said this to you in the past, the teams are reflection of the manager. And we're saying about Arsenal taking a back step in the last month, you know, six weeks or so. And the manager has been a big part of that

because he's gone away from what he's about as well. And that's the reflection that's coming back into the team. They have been at times very frustrating to watch, obviously I've been watching quite a lot of them of course, and becoming a little bit too predictable without that number nine, that focal point, not having that player that would do something out of the ordinary. I think it's just been a really hard mentally tough season for Arsenal to face, the fact he's just disappointed because of the point situation where they're at. He expects more from his team and I think that if anything players need to take responsibility if they haven't done

it this year like but they're still second like you say semi-final Champions League yeah of course that's great but they're better than what they're showing right now and that's that's the bit that Mikel Arteta is referring to. The other line Chris that then comes in is they come across as being easily destabilised and in their manager's case even a bit affronted by the smallest diversion from the trained for norm, the slightest intrusion of randomness. It seems that Arteta is or has been hinting at they just need a bit of luck. But he has to control things he can affect and it's not like he has just walked in the door at Arsenal. He's been there, he's

spent a fortune, he's at 650 million and they're still in a situation where to get over the line And they're still in a situation where to get over the line, and the Premier League's so tough, but this season was an opportunity for them. And in the Champions League, he spoke about both boxers, didn't he? PSG being more clinical and the difference between the goalkeepers. But that's something he should have seen and should have affected last summer, the whole striker thing, and something they should have made a play for somebody in that position. For Arsenal, when you actually think about this, for Arsenal to have to resort to, and Marino did well, but have to resort to playing a player who had never played as a centre

forward and just throw him up. That's amateur hour, really. Absolute amateur hour. To be there five years and to be in that situation, you can talk about injuries. That's totally unacceptable and they are the margins and something he could have and should have affected. So we can't talk about luck when he's not doing his own job properly. The big change as well, when Edu left it back in November, I think there was a massive change in the dynamic of the control at the club.

And I think Mikel there, that side of it did start to really affect him. Clearly seeing it as well, one of his best, one of his friends in football leaving would have hurt him massively. And obviously, Andrew Berta coming in, it's a different kind of pressure now because he understands this man's here, he's pedigree of bringing players in and

doing well, he's been at a level so he's now expected to bring something next year. That's the difference now. I don't think everyone expected Arsenal to win the Champions League or to win the league, challenge even more so than it has done yes. But I think next year is actually how they need to win something. Well, the Arsenal fan you look at, you look at me a bit odd, Chris, but I just feel like I think you know them better than me. I mean, you know, you know them better than me, Arsenal fans, but you can't keep finishing second. There has to be that next step.

And that's the frustration. I think that he's been there a long time. He's you know, he's built. They still seem like they're they're a good team and they're not going to fall off a cliff. But it's all about winning, isn't it? I think you're probably both right in that going into the season, I don't think Arsenal fans would have said, we expect to win the league. I think Arsenal fans would have been much more realistic at the start of the season.

As soon as Manchester City looked like they were collapsing, I think Arsenal fans thought, right then, we're next in line. And it seems to me that that's created this kind of desperation almost around the club that right this is ours, this one's ours, we've finished second twice, we're the team that can live with City so now that they're not there anymore it'll be for us and seeing Liverpool kind of wander in under a new manager who wasn't expected to do anything this season I think has hurt. The big test for Arteta to me is that people have been saying he needs a striker for ages. He can go and sign a striker this summer, Andrea Bertas already seems to have done a deal for Zubamendi, they're talking about Juan Garcia from Espanyol, a couple of others

there's money to spend, Arsenal are really attractive, why wouldn't you want to go and play for the team that's second in the Premier League, Champions League semi-finalists in London, all that stuff. Arteta spent most of his first year, 18 months, at Arsenal getting rid of egos. Got rid of Urzil, got rid of Aubameyang, wanted players who would buckle to his system. Quite a lot of strikers out there

have got quite a lot of big egos. They'd be available, but they might be quite tricky to work with. And you know, Victor Ossimen, I think it wouldn't be an easy deal to do, but Victor Ossimen is a prickly character who will expect things to be arranged in a certain way for him. And Tesperateta, is he prepared to do that? Okay.

Striker with big ego, difficult to work with. Chris, what do you make of Ruben Dias' comments? I really enjoyed the interview. I haven't laughed so much in a long time. He said, let me just read what he said. This is a five live, a five live sports interview or sports report as I say. Southampton don't even try anything. They just sit. They don't even want to win the game. They just want to be there. It's no good for the show and no good for themselves. It's no good for anyone, but it is what it is. They also had a pop at the pitch as well, they said it was dry and the Groundsman phoned you up on 606.

Unbelievable, yeah he said the picture was dry and the sun was hot. Oh really? That did tickle me, nobody knew that. And the Groundsman, yeah the Sampton Groundsman called in 606 said they did everything they could. They watered it before the game. They watered it at half time. I mean, classic case of sour grapes. Every excuse under the sun.

It sums up Manchester City this season where they just haven't had that ability in games to be as ruthless as they once were and he took it out on poor old Southampton. Leave him alone. I totally agree with you, Chris. What are they meant to do, Theo? Look, you hit the nail on the head. Look, what are they meant to do?

Southampton, they are playing away, just beat us. They got a point and you get anything out of those games you're happy with, particularly when you're right down there. it just says more about like Chris was saying at Man City trying to find a way. Look, they played the system, they play that way, beat us, they can beat them. It worked. Why not take a point against these teams? So it's just again, it's emotions after games of players maybe saying things that they,

you know, not really thinking about before and pausing. But yeah, I totally agree Chris. It's tickled me as well. To be fair Rory, Guardiola actually disagreed with Diaz afterwards. Yeah I mean Pep has previous for kind of saying that teams aren't playing the right way when they have the nerve to not try and beat a team that are better than them in exactly the way that would suit that team who are better than them and I think it's yeah it speaks to Diaz's frustrations but the the final say on the matter went to there was a tweet that I saw Today is this one from Jack Buchanan?

It's an old timer. It's absolutely brilliant. So there's a bit in it that is blasphemous So I'm not a bill though is is the best phrase blasphemous I have to say that well, well, I don't know what you think I'm about to read out But I it could be blasphemous, so I don't know what you think I'm about to read out but it could be blasphemous so I don't really want to risk it but when you read it, thanks for your input Rory. But honestly you have to find this on social media somewhere from Jack Buchanan. So in inverted commas they don't even try to play. Brother in and then you can add whichever religious figure you want to. Brother in, we can't play football.

That's why we had 11 points, you absolute melon. I think that sums it up pretty nicely. Yeah, that was Southampton trying their hardest to play good football. Oh dear, it is just that time of year I think where people are cantankerous. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Xavier Alonso going to Real Madrid with Carlo Ancelotti leaving and becoming the next Brazil manager. The Brazilian FA president said as follows, bringing Ancelotti to lead Brazil is more

than a strategic move, it's a statement to the world that we are determined to regain the top spot on the podium. He's the greatest coach in history and now he's in charge of the greatest national team on the planet. Together we will write glorious new chapters for Brazilian soccer. You've obviously played under him Theo. When you look at the Brazil squad and you look at his man management qualities, is this a good fit? Yeah, do you know, I kind of feel like it is a good fit. His man management skills with the exceptional talent he's just going to have to control, I think he can. Because as well, he can deflect it from different situations.

I think he'll really connect with them in a different way that they've never been used to. And I think that'll be a difference for Brazilian football to bring out that, you know, let them express themselves again. I think he wants to encourage that. I think that's his strength for you is his connections. Yeah, that's his quality. I always feel like he wants the people to express themselves in a manner.

And I think that didn't quite happen to Everton. There patches of when it did but yeah, you can't not doubt He's one of the most successful managers that have existed. So yeah, I think it's a really good move I think the fact that it's not it'd be interesting that that it's not on a day-to-day So obviously international level is a completely different Style to what he's used to because I feel like he loves the day-to-day But I think at his age he's at now and what he's achieved in football I think it's a good fit, I really do. I think all of that's true and it's also a massive humiliation for Brazil as a football nation.

Oh here we go. Big call. And so are you for this then Rory? If they don't, so Brazil don't fancy a Brazilian coach then? I think, I mean Chappell saying here we go doesn't make me think I'm going to get a fair hearing. I can see completely why they've done it. Theo is completely right. Angelotti is one of the greatest managers of all time. I think with that profile of squads,

what you need is somebody who has that kind of, that soft touch, that human touch, that ability to be flexible in the way that he plays, to try and work out how, you know, how do you get Vinicius and Ruffinia and Rodrigo and all of the others into a team? That is a question that Carlo Angelotti is better qualified than most people on the planet to answer. I would also quibble with the idea that Brazil are the greatest national team. Not only have they not won a World Cup since 2002, Theo, they haven't come close to winning a World Cup since 2002. But historically they have the most titles.

They do historically have the most titles. So yes, the CBF can claim that. But I think it's a shame that... Do you know what Chris, I'll be amenable, I don't want Chappers to accuse me of being contentious. If the CBF, the Brazilian Football Federation, appoint Carlo Ancelotti at the same time as they instigate major change to try and encourage their clubs to allow coaches to survive for more than three months at a time. If they start trying to bring through youth coaches who are Brazilian, if they start looking at inculcating a kind of managerial culture that matches that country's incredible football culture,

then it's a good thing. If they don't, it's a sticking plaster not addressing the root cause and it's a humiliation for Brazil. Is it similar to England? England should be embarrassed that the person best qualified to manage their national team is not English. That is embarrassing for England as a football culture, just as this is embarrassing for Brazil. It's not embarrassing. It is embarrassing. No it's not. Because if you're trying to become the best and elite, you get the best person for the

job, it doesn't matter what nationality they are. And you have said Angelotti is the best person for the job, but yet you're still angry about them not employing a Brazilian coach. That doesn't actually make sense. It does. It's more disappointing. It's international football, it's meant to test how good you are as a football team. And I would, Chapas has suggested that this is a ridiculous point of view before.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and I think that's true in England and I think it's definitely true in Brazil. Are the comparisons fair though Rory? The state of Brazilian coaching is down to

circumstances that are different to English coaching. In the sense that the top Premier League teams in this country are in the main obsessed with the continental coach. That's not necessarily the same in Brazil. Brazil have had a problem with how they're bringing coaches through. I suppose that's a mark difference, isn't it? But you know, at least I don't know if it's like what Mark says, that at least in the Brazilian top flight, they will have Brazilian coaches in the pre-season. I mean, which coaches are there? Brazilian top flight they will have Brazilian coaches in the prayer in Increasingly in these coaches other in Brazil. They're increasingly giving jobs to just any Portuguese person that walks past but the yeah

There are still lots of Brazilian coaches. There's also a lot of I mean Argentinian coaches dominate South American football There are still Brazilian coaches the problem in Brazil I think Tim victories talked to us about this before hasn't he that if they lose a game they get sacked So you have certain clubs who are paying? that if they lose a game, they get sacked. So you have certain clubs who are paying multiple managers gardening leave payments, and sometimes are paying the same manager twice, because they've sacked him twice

in the course of his contract. And that's absurd. That's clearly not a very clever way to run your football teams. And I think there is that cultural issue in Brazil. In England, yeah, it's more that the Premier League clubs are obsessed with a foreign coach with importing ideas which is a good thing, with seeking the best in class which is also a good thing that's exactly how this should work, they have the funds and the finances

and stuff to do it, so yeah there is a difference in circumstance but I don't think either, it's fine if you do it, I'm maybe prepared to soften a little bit, it's fine if you do it and you acknowledge that you're doing it from a position of weakness, that's fine. Are you very much to the belief Rory with Eurovision across the BBC this week that each country's singer should be from their own country? Yeah I famously did not celebrate Katrina and the waves because they were Canadian. That's great knowledge. I'm devastated about Eurovision, it's the final day and I

love Eurovision and I'll be on a train back. I'm really disappointed. You can watch it on your phone and stuff. Yeah, I don't know if you've tried the wifi on the East Coast Main Line chapter but it's not great. And also you can listen to it on Radio 2, the BBC corporate police in my ear are giving me every corporate look going. I will be doing that. And Dev that and definitely watch the semi-finals on Wednesday I know it's not quite the same as the actual big night on Saturday but it's something nice warm-up okay and thank you very much Rory Theo Chris thank you for being with us and again thank you for listening