Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Merino to the rescue & are there nerves in Merseyside?

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Mark Chapman is joined by former Liverpool defender Stephen Warnock, Premier League winner Chris Sutton and The Athletic's Adam Crafton on this week's Monday Night Club.The team discuss Andy Robertson's comments about Liverpool getting "nervous", as well as Merino's brace to get Arsenal out of danger. Are the Reds catchable? Do Arsenal have it in them to be perfect?After Manchester United's loss against Tottenham, leaving them 15th in the table, the panel discuss where the end to their poor form could come from. Does Amorim need more time, and are the players at fault? Or is the environment to blame?Then finally on MNC, how has Moyes resurrected Everton? And are him and the Blues a match made in heaven?02:58 The Andy Robertson "nervous" comment debate 16:41 Can Arsenal put together a perfect run of form? 18:35 Can Merino be the striker Arsenal need? 29:36 Another loss for Manchester United - when will it end? 40:24 Everton's resurrection under David MoyesBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week: Tues 18 Feb 2000 Bayern Munich v Celtic in the Champions League. Wed 19 Feb 2000 Real Madrid v Manchester City in the Champions League. Fri 21 Feb 1945 Portugal v England in the Women's Nations League.Sat 22 Feb 1500 Arsenal v West Ham United in the Premier League. Sat 22 Feb 1730 Aston Villa v Chelsea in the Premier League on 5 Sports Extra. Sun 23 Feb 1400 Newcastle v Nottingham Forest in the Premier League. Sun 23 Feb 1630 Manchester City v Liverpool in the Premier League.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Monday Night Club with Chris Sutton, Adam Crafton from The Athletic and Stephen Warnock, former Liverpool and Villa defender. How is New York, Adam? How does it feel like a long time since you've been on this show. I just wait for my invite and then I come back. But the panorama behind me, you can see can't you how beautiful New York is? Oh yes, absolutely.

In the studio, you can see the whole skyline. No, I'm in a BBC studio at the foot of Manhattan. It's great, thank you for asking. Good, excellent. So Stephen and Chris and Adam are with us. We're going to start with Liverpool who are at seven points clear at the top of the table after a 2-1 win over Wolves on Sunday afternoon. You were there weren't you? I was. Good, thank goodness for that. I'm glad I got that right. I just thought I'd drag that out of my memory from yesterday. It was nervous, wasn't it, yesterday? Did

that surprise you? I think there was a lot of feeling around what the derby had taken out the players and mentally what that would have done to the players and whether there was a feeling that they'd let that game slip and would it be costly? I think there was a feeling of how tired mentally were the players going into that game. And I think the game was quite comfortable in the first half. And Wolves made changes in the second half where they took attacking players off and put almost midfielders on. And you're thinking, this is a bit of a strange move from Victor Pereira.

But it worked. And they flew out the traps and once they got that goal Liverpool were very, very edgy. There was a real feeling around the crowd that there was tension within the stadium and they were nervous wondering what potentially could happen. The last 20 minutes or so, Liverpool couldn't control the ball, they couldn't string a pass together. Yeah, and it was a worrying time for the fans. It was very strange Chris, wasn't it? Because it felt routine for 50... until the penalty was overturned. It felt routine and the first half felt like it was just second gear and everything was just going to be, you know know from a Liverpool point of view I suppose quite nice and 2-0 maybe 3-0 take the three points and move on. Yeah it's it's always the same

though isn't it when you know 2-0 that score line if Liverpool get the next goal then they'd stroll it Wolves got back in it. You aren't going down the 2-0s very dangerous score line Rue tell you. Of course it is a danger, well and I mean that was that was the perfect game to spot that mark once Cunha scored within the stadium you felt the nervousness. I'm surprised with Andy Robertson's comments about it though because... Do you want me to read them? Yeah, if you like. Everyone gets nervous, the players get nervous, the crowd gets nervous, that's only natural

but another game down, this result is big. I'm assuming they're the quotes that you mentioned, Eden, there isn't something else. Yes, no, they were the words. What surprises me a little bit about that is this is Andy Robertson, as well as a lot of Liverpool players in the team who have been there and done it and won the big trophies. And you think, well, there's a fair bit of the season to go. And if he's coming out and saying they're nervous now, then it may be a little bit of a worry. I just think it's one of those, if this is Liverpool's blip where the reserves get knocked out of the FA Cup, they can see an equaliser in the

dying seconds in the Merseyside derby and don't play against Wolves, or don't win against Wolves, they did end up getting, don't play well against Wolves, I got there in the end. If they did what against Wolves? No, if they didn't play well against Wolves. Is this yours or Liverpool's? Very good. Get Rory back. I was going to say, it was worth the wait getting you back on Adam.

But there's still seven points clear and it's just about winning now. It's not about performance but if I was Liverpool at the weekend, all things being equal, and then you sort of glance over at Arsenal, you look at the Liverpool bench and the attacking players that Liverpool have at their disposal and then you look at Arsenal and think, you know, they may be in for a struggle. It was just about winning and they did it seven points, big gap at this stage. On the, just those Andy Robertson quotes, what surprises you, the sort of nervous bit, admitting it?

Yeah. So following that then, what, the more experience you got and the more you won you you weren't nervous Not no, no, I think you learn to control it and I think there's also the Understanding that you can have games like this where things aren't perfect It's all about getting over the line these These things happen. Liverpool's form at the start of the season was phenomenal performance-wise and maybe it's taking its toll, the number of games which they've played, but all things being equal, they have had a phenomenal season. It wasn't a great performance and maybe they just dropped off a little bit against Wolves

at the weekend, but it's about three points points that's what it is and and being relentless in that respect and it's another one it's another one chalked off some surprise because he's been there and he's done it as a lot of the Liverpool players have it's not like this is this is new for Andy Robertson but but do you think that can actually be sometimes the issue is that he knows how good it is to win a title and that desperate to get it done again Chris that there's almost a fear that they don't want to throw this away because of the position they're in and that's why there is an element of sort of fear and what's going on and then yeah i think it shows that he deeply, but what would worry me a little bit, Stephen, is if they're getting nervous against wolves, then they've got tougher tests to come in

their remaining fixtures, haven't they? So I was surprised he said that. It makes complete sense to me, Adam. To be nervous? Or to admit you're nervous? Yeah, Adam. To be nervous? Yeah. Or to admit you're nervous. Yeah, both. And also, just to, and look, Stephen and Chris can come in on this in a minute, but from a fan's point of view,

you know when you are feeling nervous, and you know that you probably don't want to transmit as a group your nerves to the players, but you can't help that. And so one feeds off the other really. Yeah and I always think stadiums like Anfield are really interesting places because they can be places that really carry a team and they can also be a team that when there is that little bit of anxiety when there's expectation it can also contribute to a team feeling more nervous as well, even Liverpool.

And I think the atmosphere at Anfield is an interesting thing because you get these really big nights where it is absolutely sensational. But I think people have said this season that because the style of football has been that tiny bit slower, there's been certain games where it's a little bit quiet. And I think as you get closer, remember for Liverpool fans, they've not seen their team actually physically lift a title. Obviously they won it during COVID for a long, long time now, talking three decades.

So it's normal that as that gets closer, that desperation, that anxiety seeps in. I think for a player like Andy Robertson, all the talk this season about his slight regression know, slight regression, he might be thinking this is, this might be my last chance to win the league with Liverpool as well. So I think it's normal to have that anxiety, pretty honest to talk about it. I think for Liverpool it's actually been, you know, when you take away the cup game, which I think they, you know, they got it wrong, they either got it wrong or right,

whatever your view is on the team. But I think a point at Everton, at Everton's current form is a good point. I know the context of it made it feel differently. Then you win against Wolves and now you go into two games. And I think if they come out of Villa and City with four points from those two games, I think they'll be really happy. But surely they never expected to win the title without a little bit of anxiety along the way. No, I totally agree. I think it's an interesting point you make though, Adam, about the crowd.

Because what you often find is, and I found this when I was there as well, the crowds, they lift themselves for the big European nights. They lift themselves for a derby against whether it's Manchester United or Everton, whoever comes to town. But when it's the so-called smaller teams, the fans almost think, well, I'll get across the line anyway. They don't need us. They don't really need that backing. Now, in the second half, it got to a period where it's about 20,

15 minutes to go. And the fans suddenly went, they need us here. They know that we need to pick our game up ourselves. And there was a reaction from the crowd trying to lift them but it was almost a little bit too late because Wolves were in top gear Liverpool were almost in first or second gear and needed to go up through the gears it's very difficult to get back through the gears when you're at the...

when you're struggling in a game so I think the Liverpool fans will have learnt a lot from that at the weekend but I agree with Adam as well on the point of Sometimes it's very difficult to lift yourselves when you're used to that Jürgen Klopp Energetic style of play that gets you off the edge of the seat. This isn't that style of play It is at times but it's not as As probably as repetitive throughout a game. That's expectation as well Stephen isn't it the Liverpool fans rocking up to a home game

against Wolves they're thinking well we should wipe the floor with them and it's just the nature of of the Cunha goal and they got spooked. But also those as Adam has pointed out you know those Liverpool fans haven't been in the stadium in this situation for a very long time. And that, why are you grimacing Chris? Because that does change, that does completely change the dynamic. And they may have been in the stadium, by that I mean, they've been in the stadium

in a title race in other seasons, but the other team has been Manchester City. So psychologically, I think as a fan. Are you thinking this is the perfect opportunity? In the past you're thinking well whatever we do eventually City will do what they always do. Whereas this, as we've said a few times, for both the clubs, Liverpool and Arsenal, every time fans go into a ground now they're feeling it.

But that was almost what I was alluding to before when I was saying when when when Andrew Robertson saying we're getting nervous is because they feel like they don't want to throw it away because everyone will say well you didn't have City chasing you down it wasn't them it was Arsenal they've lost their 4-4 with 3 so how how can you throw this away but Chris you've been in a title winning team you know what expectation is and you know what that pressure becomes and some people handle it very well some people will be very open and honest about it but I do think there's an element where the players are thinking it's almost gone so well so far that they're almost expecting a

hiccup themselves but that they shouldn't do because they're that good of a team. Yeah and we nearly capitulated didn't we at Blackburn? I think we were nine points clear with six games to go and you know I did get nervous. I think a lot of the players were nervous but the difference between myself and Andy Robertson is Andy Robertson, I'd never been there before and done. Andy Robertson had done and there is a difference, there's a clear difference between the players getting nervous and the crowd getting nervous and from which, you know, you're talking about the COVID season title, but that's still a title in the history books. I don't, so while from a crowd point of view, I don't really agree with what you're saying,

but I'll accept it from... Because I... Because you don't. Because I just don but with Andy Robertson I'm just I'm just surprised that he's but Chris he's coming out and he's being he's being honest but I think we would expect Liverpool players to to that they have this situation controlled, that they are clear and they've never given me the impression this season that they are going to struggle and dip and drop. We've all been waiting for the wheels to come off or there may be to be a bad run of form so I'm just a little bit surprised he said it. We were talking about this yesterday on Airme and John Akers and what we were saying was

there's almost an element of you know what's at stake because you've won it before so Andrew Robinson knows what it will mean to win that Premier League title. Often when you've got players, younger players in the squad, there's that element of, oh, we'll get there again. Whereas Andrew Robertson knows how hard it is to get there because he's gone up against City, he's gone up against Arsenal, and he knows that this might be the one season

within the next three or four years. Whereas when you're young, you're a little bit more naive to that situation. You might think, oh, we'll do it again next year. If we don't win it this year, we go again next year, well it might not be that easy, so that's where that element of fear and nervousness comes in. And as you said Adam as well, I mean aside from the three players who are coming to the end of their contracts and whether they're going to be replaced, the other

position that Liverpool seem to be constantly linked with is a new left-back. Yeah for sure and I, you know, they've still not renewed those players, have they? I mean, you know, Salo and Van Dijk and Alexander-Arne, also, you know, all of those players, I think... I'm not sure I necessarily agree if it goes wrong, it's not their fault, but if it does go wrong, there will be a conversation about, you know, has all of this speculation helped the team at a crucial point in the season? You know, that will be part of whatever fallout comes from it. But equally, I mean, you know, when I look at the Premier League table, you know, we're talking here about an anxiety enveloping a team. We're talking about a team

that's lost one match all season in the Premier League, that's breezed through the Champions League. When you take a little step back from a late goal and 20-25 dodgy minutes yesterday, I think fans will probably be pretty trusting of this team or at least they should be and I think the players should be pretty trusting of each other. I mean they've got a seven-point lead. Only Newcastle lost a lead that was greater than that. They lost a 12 point lead. But all the teams around, Chelsea who had 11 points

in 04, 05, Manchester City, 10 points in 2021, Manchester United nine in 2012, 13. And teams actually have had six point leads in the Premier League era have held onto them and won them. So Liverpool seven, history would say that they would hold on to that lead and win it. And the other way of flipping it of course is they win at Villa on Wednesday night. They're obviously, because I can do the maths, they're ten clear ahead of Arsenal before Arsenal's next game. Yeah absolutely and that's the thing at the moment. I think that's what the concern is,

is that a lot of people are looking at the next three games and going Villa, City and Newcastle and there's that fear of well what if the next three games don't go well. It's interesting that we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion if they had not drew the game against Everton because we would have been looking at it going nine clear, okay they limped over the line against Wolves, they'll still win the title but But just because it's dropped to that, they got that one point against Everton, suddenly there's like a doubt in people's minds that they've considered a late goal, they've limped across the line against Wolves and they're thinking, well if they've only just limped across the line against Wolves, Wolves beat Villa and you go and City are perhaps finding

a little bit of form, depending on how they do in the Champions League on Wednesday night. And then you look at Newcastle, they'll be looking to bounce back after the City game. So yeah, it's a very interesting narrative. I'm not doubting them just for the record. I'm not one of those people who's got the doubt, Stephen. No, I didn't say you were, Chris, but thanks for clearing that up.

But don't you think as well, when we talk about this, we're now only talking about it from the Liverpool point of view. But actually, yes, seven points, okay, you can say that's what, a couple of draws and a defeat, but the flip side is Arsenal have to be perfect. And it's an Arsenal team that hasn't been perfect at any point this season or shown really an inclination that they're capable of going on the kind of run that we saw them do at the back end of last season. And also on on top of that they've not got any strikers.

So yeah I think so much has to happen for this to flip in a way that would be quite improbable, it's not played like that but I mean I'm as confident from a Liverpool perspective as you could probably be As a non Liverpool fan. Arsenal are unbeaten in the league in 15. I was gonna say yeah. How many have they drawn? Goodness you you don't think that Kate you don't think they're capable of continuing to stay unbeaten that They could stay unbeaten But that won't be enough if you're drawing as many games as they have over the last few weeks, last few months.

You know that's two, you're still dropping two points every time when you're needing to overturn a seven point lead so you know that's the position that they've put themselves in. Five draws in that 15. Right, so if they were to do that again do you think that's enough to win the league? Well, they've only got 13 games left so they'd be cheating if they if they They continued at that ratio though, they definitely they definitely wouldn't know right So they have to improve and they have lost players from that period as well.

So that's why I'm saying it's improbable. I think, yeah, I'm not saying they're a bad team. I'm just saying the odds are stacked in a way that is very preferable to Liverpool. I would say there are things, look, if a team goes on to win the title, and we can combine Liverpool and Arsenal here, Chris, to a certain extent, if team goes on to win the title, there are combine Liverpool and Arsenal here. Chris to a certain extent.

If team goes on to win the title there are certain things where you go, well that moment may have just changed the momentum for them or that moment was one of the reasons why they won the title. If you look at it from a Liverpool perspective, Quantes tackle at Anfield in the dying minutes yesterday to preserve the 2-1 lead is one. If Marino continues on his trajectory then you could say that's which and if he keeps scoring then that will be one there because he rescued them on Saturday afternoon. Yeah that's as good a story as it was that's a huge gif isn't it?. I know it is.

But Marino, yeah, but I mean, you are right. I'm totally in Adam's camp here though in terms of what Arsenal was at last season, 16 out of the last 18 that they won. The margin of error isn't there. And the fact that by chance, and it must have been by chance that Marino is thrown up there and he gets a couple of goals and he took both his goals superbly well but that's going to be one ... He has played there before Dres, he played there for El Sociedad.

Well he said the last time he said, I heard in his interview after the game he obviously didn't know that he played there for El Sociedad because he said the last time he said, I heard his interview after the game, he obviously didn't know that he played there for secondary at FOSY Show because he said the last time he played there was when he was eight or nine, unless it was in the juniors. But that wouldn't have been in Mikel Arteta's thoughts when they signed him to play him as a centre forward. It's a, you know, he's a makeshift role, did well, but we cannot think that that's an ideal situation for Arsenal to be in on a title run in. And that's where Liverpool, you know, Arnaut Slot will be looking at the Arsenal team, the Arsenal bench.

I tell you what, they've got a lot of left backs on that bench, but in terms of striking options, and they'll be thinking, or certainly Mikel Art they'll be thinking or certainly Mikel Arteta will be thinking we should have got a striker and I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but the fact he went for Olly Watkins at the end of January Arsenal fans will be saying if they lose the league by a couple of points why didn't we at the start of January go for a striker. Do you see anything Stephen in

Marino that might suggest he could be effective for a short period of time in that role? I think this is very hard to judge because it's against Leicester and Leicester have been awful defensively, really poor, so it is very difficult to say what he was like. Chris, I don't know whether you watched the game, whether you saw it, his movement looked quite decent when he came on, he made clever runs in the box, but then I'm thinking, did they really see the runs

the Leicester players, did they really cover him? He's a physical presence, he is decent in the air, but it's a completely different job when you've got your back to goal and you're trying to pin players and bring other players into play I mean, it's not an easy job at all. I'm building you up here Chris It is it's it is it's more difficult though because you've got to be aware of what's around you and and people's runs And you've got to be able to to link the play But it comes down to Arsenal Being near perfect now,

from now to the end of the season. And Marino did a great job, and he may do an able job from now to the end of the season, but that cannot be the perfect situation where he may nick a goal or two. But in games where there are really fine margins you need somebody who's been there and done that and recognized and has that striking instinct. But who has that anyway though Chris? All footballers know how to play different positions. No but who's been at number nine anyway though Chris they

haven't had that number nine so we're talking about Havertz but he's not a natural finisher. But he's still chipped in I think his numbers are very similar to last season Stephen and it was the more you think about it the sort of Havertz or Bust situation was crazy from Mikel Arteta but they were getting goals from other areas. I think Trossard, even his numbers are down. Saka, Odegaard, they've been, Odegaard was, you know, with big loss earlier on in the season. Saka's been out long term. So they were getting goals from other areas, but you know, it is easy in hindsight to say it. But the fact that they chose not to and don't even have, they got a young kid on the bench who could play centre forward, obviously didn't have the trust in him, that's not a good situation to be in. But that's partly my point Adam that Stephen put to Chris.

It's not like if Mourinho comes in and starts that he is... Mourinho? Mourinho, sorry, Mourinho comes in and starts. I mean that would be a story. He's replacing an Erling Haaland type. He's replacing another, albeit maybe a slightly more attacking midfielder who's been converted into this front man, however that front man is used for Arsenal. Yeah, I think that's true and that's a fair point they're almost forwards that drop back don't they almost as another midfielder at times. Yeah I think we'll learn a lot you know we talk about Liverpool's next three or

four games you know Arsenal's next few they've got to go to Forest they've got Manchester United away okay a lot of teams win there but that's still a game where if they come away from that and win it you say okay let's see and then they've got Chelsea after that as well so you know I think in a fortnight's time... Are you classing the United away as a difficult fixture? I think Arsenal will go into that game thinking if we come away with a win then we've done well here however Batman United are I still think Arsenal will view it that way you know you still will always get confidence, you know, whether it's right or wrong based on what Man United do, that people still take confidence

from winning at Old Trafford and take belief from it. Well United are also, are them better against the bigger clubs aren't they? Because it suits the style and the way that they play, that sit back and get behind the ball so it could be a difficult I told them not a big club Stephen Yeah, they are but they they're struggling themselves as well So they can't exactly come out and attack themselves or they did do a little bit yesterday But that was two teams very low in confidence. I heard that discussion Chris. They are a big club

I'm with you. On the Marino point It's very different coming on for 15 minutes or at the end of the game and having a bit of space, defence is tired, to starting a game, you know, going, you know, when you think they've got Nottingham Forest away, you think next week, going up against those big Forest centre halves from the start for 60, 70 minutes, being in a fight, making those runs down the channels, it's such a different job, you know, to being a little bit opportunistic in the box in the last 10 minutes of the game. So it's going to be interesting to see how Arteta goes about that and also how teams respond to it, because teams are wise up to it.

All I'm quite interested in is whether the front three that started for Arsenal, which was Wanieri and Trossard and Sterling, is a more effective front three than say Wanieri, Trossard, either side of Marino and getting the balls, getting the crosses in for him. That's what I would just throw in there. Yeah, it's a difficult one isn't it because is he going to be sensible or clever enough to make the runs to get in between centre halves, does he mark himself, that's the skill of a striker, they know how to find space in the box. Is he instinctive to know where the ball might drop, that's the skill of a striker as well which you can't really coach. Listen he scored a couple lovely

goals at the weekend but he's gonna go up against bigger challenges. I just look at it from the next game, Nottingham Forest, what would the centre halves prefer to play against? Would they prefer to play against Marino who isn't a centre forward, who won't really run off your shoulder, won't really be looking to low centre of gravity, twist and turn you, or would you rather play against a Raheem Sterling or a Trossard or Waniere in that position, maybe as a central striker who comes off a little bit deeper? I think the big players would prefer to play against Marino. I think they'd be happier with him because he's not a centre forward by trade.

Would you consider Chris Waineri through the middle? I don't, well would I consider, I think he could play any of those roles across the front and he can play as an eight, I think, you know I'm told that that's his best position where Martin Odegaard plays but I think that he's been so effective from the wide area that I don't think that that would necessarily be an option. Why would you want to experiment when he's already performing in a particular position? Could the other option be Odegaard playing higher up and then when Harry off him,

but like Chris says there is you don't really want to disrupt him off that left, that right hand side where he's been so key. Now if Saka was back, you'd say, well, you play Saka out there or you play them as the 10 and you might play Odegaard higher up. I think Odegaard would be probably more comfortable with his back to goal. I think he'd be the link player who you could bounce passes off because I think you're wasting him Steven aren't you? You're sort of wasting... You are but then you'd have Waniri in that position and he is very capable. I mean he is going to be an absolute superstar in the future but you can see

already he is very brave on getting on the ball, but it's finding a solution, isn't it, Chris? And you've got to find a solution at some point. The Football Daily Podcast. With Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast. The Women's Football Weekly. With me, Ellen White. Ellen White coming forward.

Great, look at that! It's the second! And Lee Van Haynes with some of the biggest names in the WSL joining us every week to discuss everything that's happening in the women's game. Right after the World Cup, got told, we're going to America. Thought, amazing. 10 days into training, did my meniscus, and the next day they flew to America.

Blocked header, six yards out, Ellen White! The Women's Football Weekly Podcast. New episode every Wednesday. Subscribe to The Football Daily on BBC Sounds. Let's get on to the latest Manchester United shambles which came at Tottenham yesterday. I mean does anything surprise you anymore Adam with them? No I mean the only thing that surprised me really yesterday was kind of like the extent of the reaction when a team that loses games consistently loses a game against Tottenham. I've been quite surprised. I didn't think United yesterday were actually as bad as they've been in certain other games over the last few months, some of which they

won by the way. You look at, I mean they beat Southampton but could easily have lost that game 3-0 at home. So yeah, the last 38 Premier League games, Man United have taken 45 points. So that's the equivalent of a whole season going back 38 games. So that tells you that's what their level is. Their level around 15th, 14th, is what they've produced over a 38 game period. You can't start making up different seasons, Adam.

I hate that. I've not made up different seasons. I've given you a sample size. I haven't really. I'm not made up different seasons. I've given you a sample size. If you joined them all up over the last 25 seasons Manchester United would be doing pretty well. Right, so you've taken what was quite a sensible sample size and made it completely ridiculous into a 25 year sample size. Are you regretting coming back now? completely ridiculous into a 25 year sample size. Right. You regret it coming back now? No, no, someone needs to put him straight every so often,

don't they? Good, good, good. But no, so over the course of the last year or so, that's been what they've produced. Now, is that acceptable? Of course it's not, but how many people said when Ruben Amorim came in making very clear that he's going to play this system, you know, he said, this is the way I play. It's not going to change. It's going to take time to coach the players

to understand this way. And a lot of people at the time were saying, you know, they might need to basically write the season off. And that's exactly what's happening. And people can't really cope with that. You know, once you're confronted with the reality of losing quite often every week. And I understand why. You know, I totally understand it because when you're on a journey where you're where you've been told playing this way is going to take you to this distant place where you're going to be successful, you're going to win. What you want to see along the way is signs of promise, whether that's individual players improving, which you're not really seeing at Man United, or whether it's you know

at least one-off games where you see the system working really effectively or players growing in the positions and you're not seeing that. The only games where they've done well is really being where they've done well in in previous years which is sat back, scrapping, on the counter attack and that's that's not what the promise is of this system. It's meant to be a lot more control. So you know Amorim will get time. I think he's you know he's asking for that time but you can also understand how many United fans are looking at and just thinking I'm not sure what we've got to go off here. Where's the promise? And also the promise of it might get worse, right?

You know, they've got no money to spend at the moment. So they're going to have to sell to buy, he said that. So you're going to have to sell. How many players are there that teams actually want to buy? Not that many So it's it's a big big challenge And you already start to fit, you know, he already looks five or ten years older than he did when you met him for an interview Chapters a few months ago. I mean he started to age during that interview as well to be But where, I mean sort of the question is, where does it end?

To be honest with you, I don't know at the moment because as Adam alludes to there, where's the value in the squad? Who is really in that squad now? Someone that you'd look at and go, I'd buy him. He'd add value to us. There's not really anyone that you'd look at and go, I'd buy him, he'd add value to us. There's not really anyone that you can look at. Now, I look at the deals that they did in the summer,

and they bought in Masrawi, De Ligt, Xerxe, Ugarte, and I look at them players and think, what have they added? What was the strategy behind that? It was players who wouldn't fit in other teams, weren't good enough for Bayern Munich. Did they say, okay, Bologna, but was he really on anyone else's radar? Ugarte was at Paris Saint-Germain,

wasn't needed in Paris Saint-Germain. They thought he was surplused to requirements. And why does suddenly Manchester United go, oh, we'll take them. They're not good enough for your team, but we'll take them, and're not good enough for your team, but we'll take them, and that'll boost us up the league. I've openly said this many times before.

I'm not a fan of the system. I don't like it. I'd never liked playing in a three, I think, especially within the modern game now. That overload in midfield is vitally important. If you're gonna play that system, you've gotta drop your two number 10s back in deeper to help out in that midfield area.

Against Spurs, they were totally over running that midfield area again. Casemiro left on his own at times where Bruno Fernandez is jumping out of position. He can't run. Neither of them can run in that midfield area. So it's a massive challenge for them. The interesting part is, you look at if this season continues now and he gets to the summer and the ownership say there's

not much money, where does that leave him as a manager? What does he decide to do then? Does he decide that this is too much for him and that it's not worth the stress and the hassle of going through all that That change and trying to improve players, but I think what Adam says there is no one's been improved I don't look at any of the players and think you've improved a little bit. We've said but we have said this before I don't think Anybody anybody I don't think player coach Manager over the last decade has been improved by being at Manchester United. No, I totally agree.

And when they leave, they then appear to succeed elsewhere. And you only have to look at, I mean, as ridiculous as this may sound, Anthony is at Real Betis, he's got three goals and one assist in four games. But he's playing for Real Betis. I know he is. So that's the pressure. There's a three goals and one assist in four games, but he's playing for rail bettas I know you I know you that's the pressure. Okay, so my foot I get it but here and McKenna Maligned my lot all these whispers or players weren't having him as a carrier this that and the other right now Look, it doesn't matter what level but even our ashford you look at Marcus Rashford. They're coming on against it switch the other day I know it's against Ipswich but he didn't do it for United against the smaller teams, but he looked like

he had a spring in his step straight away, now it's very early doors, we'll judge him over the rest of the season and see what actually happens, but if Rashford suddenly hits form, where does that leave United as well, where does that leave the management, the players, the change of ring? They had to get Rashford out though Stephen. Why? Why are you serious? Why two managers have got him? Was Rashford the problem? Was he the only problem? Oh Steve really? So it's not just one manager who was who was called him out for being a disruptor it's the last two managers so they're both wrong are they? Yeah but they're doing good jobs aren't they both of them?

One's got sacked and one can't win a game? Well and as Mark quite rightly said you know if you look at the last decade at Manchester United it's you know it's not necessarily all about the managers this whole situation so while you're judging Marcus Rashford for coming on for a 15 minute period and we're getting the bunting out for him saying he's cracked it. No I just said to him then, I just said then, let's see how he gets on over the rest of the season and then we'll know won't we. Let's see how he gets on for the remainder of this season and the start of next season

and we can add that up to 38 games because that is the perfect time for size. You're on good form tonight. You are on good form. Can I just say on Rashford, it's quite interesting because if that had been Man United that had played Ipswich at home, right, and they drew 1-1, and Rashford had done okay, right, that's basically what he did, you know, he had a couple of good runs and he hit a three-kick that hit the post. But if Man United had had that equivalent game, there is no way that the reaction to the Rashford performance would be anywhere near what it's like over the last couple of days, you know, the idea is back.

It would have been deemed as Man United crisis. They've dropped more points. Yeah. And that's the difference between playing a kind of a Man United or, or, or an Aston Villa, but that's, but there's also a lot of privileges that come with that, you know, largely the, you know, what you're paid and the, the endorsements that you're able to get and the praise that you get when things go well, not that they ever really seem to anymore

But yeah, I think that is worth considering when we think about these players at different clubs You know whether it's betis or Villa or if sometimes players leave and they're still not any good, you know Look at Sancho at Chelsea, right? You know, he's still struggling So it's it's not it's not that everyone leaves and and walks into a better situation You look at players like, you know, still not got a club, obviously has had issues. Jesse Lingard didn't do anything after leaving. But who leaves United better over the last decade? Oh, I agree.

I agree with you. It's actually a really big end to the season for Amarin, because what will happen, and it's interesting what's going to happen in the summer because we all think, and you know, a lot of talk, and I agree with Adam and Stephen about the system. absolutely spot on. So they need to give him the right type of players. He needs to have the right conditions to flourish and grow and work. And if you're growing tomatoes, Mark, for example, you wouldn't grow them in a cold climate, would you? You know, you'd pop them in a greenhouse, a bit of sunlight, a bit of moisture and what have you, make sure that the distance apart is correct and they will flourish but at this moment in time Ruben Emmerich's tomatoes aren't growing because he hasn't got the right players in for the system and that's that.

The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Monday Night Club with Stephen Warnock and Adam Crafton and Chris Sutton. We're gonna talk Everton next. Who this very evening are having their first test event at their new stadium? And Stephen has got some mates who've gone. 10,000 fans are there, aren't they?

Everton under 18s against Wigan. And you've just been looking on Instagram about what's been going on. First of all, the stadium looks fantastic, it does look fantastic but the first goal scorer at the new stadium is? He's a Liverpool fan playing for Wigan and then he's just ran off and give it the six fingers, six European Cups. You couldn't write it could you? So that test event is going on at the moment it does look great and you kind of, I know you have your sort of red persuasion on but everything is pointing in the right direction for

them isn't it? It's early days but it is. Yeah and I think what they've done is obviously they made a quick decision on the manager the appointment's been good from David Moyes and that's that's been really positive but what I actually like about it is there's been no noise from the ownership group yet so often the owners come in and they they make such big changes straight away they made a really shrewd appointment in David Moyes but nothing else has been done They know they're getting into this new stadium. It'll be interesting to see what they do in the summer, what the finances say that they can do. But they'll now, there's a real belief around Everton

that they can start to climb the table. Things are suddenly looking a lot more positive and towards the next season, if you like, and going into the new stadium. So from an Everton point of view now things have suddenly gone from looking very bleak to now being optimistic which is a great sign for them. We mentioned this on Saturday afternoon Chris but when David Moyes did his press conference on

Friday which was obviously before they went to London to take on Crystal Palace where they won as well but following the Merseyside derby he was asked in that press conference Moyes about how he'll bring these players back down to earth after the derby draw and he his re I thought his reply was fascinating over recent years everybody has brought Everton back down to earth so why don't we keep Everton high for a wee while there's positive talk about Everton high for a wee while? There's positive talk about Everton for a change. We're suddenly getting great support with people behind us. So I'm going to try and keep things as upbeat as much as I can. I just thought it was a

brilliant answer. Yeah, I totally agree with that on the one hand, but on the other hand, is there a danger – everything is safe now, David Moyes has done an unbelievable job – is there a danger now that the run they've been on under David Moyes, if this carries on, of him really overachieving because we've got to look ahead to the summer. Why is that a danger? Because I think if you look at how many players are out of contract in the summer, you look at the team and the fact that if he finishes the season so strongly, what will happen? What will happen at the start of next season?

There will be huge expectation that Everton could maybe push for possibly a top six place, I mean which would be an incredible achievement. But I think there is still a lot of work to be done. As I say, with all the players out of contract, you've got some older players within the team, Ashley Young gone again in the midfield, I think he's 35, Corey 32 Calvert Lewin is is out of contract in the summer. So while on the face of things this short show up Episode so far has gone better than anybody expected and in some respects I actually think the results at the weekend against Palace was his best result because Palace have been I've been going really well and they've lost and died and

you think going down there and actually winning the game. Phenomenal. So I do wonder if this run carries on, I can just imagine the Everton fans, new stadium start of next season, first game, here we go under David Moyes but it's a fascinating summer isn't it because there may be big changes. Thanks for your optimism Chris. I was going to say can I just check my question here was about keeping things upbeat wasn't it? Yeah yeah. I thought that's what I asked. But you have to look further ahead Mark at times do you not agree though? Well I just think it's all of a sudden we're now allowed to say how this season might influence next season and put different seasons together.

I thought it was all separate. The only thing I just felt the other night, I do wonder how Everton will, and they've got to do this because, you know, modern football is about ticket revenue and driving revenue from a stadium, but yeah, good, there is just something about that place, you know, as rundown as it might be, that I think probably gets them

quite a few points each season. Agreed. And we've seen when teams move stadiums that they can be particularly when they move from very atmospheric stadiums like, you know Upton Park to London Stadium or You know, I think Arsenal struggled a little bit when they first moved to Emirates to Emirates Stadium I think the work there will be a bedding in period So I think Chris is right on that. But what's really struck me about Moi's version two

at Everton is just how comfortable he is in his own skin. We've kind of seen a kind of bit of a re-imagining of what it was like in the last couple of years for Moi's at Everton. But actually the reality was like there was some fans that were getting a bit grouchy with, oh, he's taking us as far as he can. And him, I think as well, probably had his eyes on,

you know, can I go that one level further, which he obviously tried when he went to Man United. Whereas now it just feels like everyone's kind of just comfortable with it. You know, Moyes looks very relaxed. Yeah, I've been watching his, not sure how many people in New York watch David Moyes press conferences on YouTube, but I've actually started just watching his press conference because he strikes me as a

very different person in some ways to the version that you know that I covered when he was at Man United and at West Ham, he just seems completely in control of the situation, the team and the club. He was in control of West Ham, madam. The second time, yeah, I think the first time it was tough. I'm not saying he wasn't in control, but it's like he's got nothing to prove anymore, is what strikes me.

He looks like someone who, he's not going out there trying to prove himself to anyone. He's being very honest. I thought they also had to, even though they didn't recruit very strongly in January, I thought what they did well is they didn't make mistakes. You know, we've seen Everton so many times go into the market and panic and spend money that either they don't have or that could put them

in trouble, and actually they just sort of, think they'll just look to the manager they've got the defense that they've got the goalkeeper they've got and thought will probably just about be all right and also the fact tips which and Leicester can't win again. I was gonna say that Adam, do you think that he's looked at that and said I'd rather have the money in the summer rather than going into the transfer window now and we probably don't need it. We've got enough to pull us away from the relegation zone. Just going on your point before, Chris, about the optimism around Everton. I think Evertonians are now being a little bit more realistic in saying,

a mid-table finish next year or in the round 12, just don't be in a relegation battle for large parts of the season, will be enough. I think there's an understanding that this stadium is going to cost money, that they do need to move into it. I agree with Adam, I think it will take a bed and in period of time to get used to the surroundings, but I think there is a feeling around Everton is that they've had the riches and they've blown the riches before and they've got to be really sensible with the money. So they'll be hoping that David Moyes,

as he's done in the past, will be a little bit more shrewd with that money and more sensible and won't buy for the sake of buying. And I think that's what David Moyes, one of his biggest strengths actually is. But he is also, I think as Adam said, he is just happy, isn't he? Sometimes it's content.

Yeah but sometimes the environment that you're in it suits you and the players suit you and I think David Moyes is very happy at Everton I think it suits him I think he lives in Blackpool Way doesn't he so he's back with his family now he's back seeing them more often he's more content in what he's doing so I think that suits his lifestyle as well and sometimes a club just suits you. Sometimes that club just suits that personality, it suits the players. And I think what's also been nice for David Moyes'

is that the players have been receptive of the messages that he's given. So when you get that chemistry between the players and the manager straight away, then you're onto a positive. And also his backroom staff, he's been given Alan Irvine, he's got Leighton Baines in there, he's got people around him that he knows and he can trust, get the message across a lot quicker, that's vitally important

as well. Jarrod Brantley, sorry I was just going to read the Jarrod Brantley quotes, before he came in we had defensive resilience and structure but maybe he's brought in a bit more flair and knowledge, we're creating loads more more chances working on different positions for the attackers and different runs to make to open the defences and I think you can see it's working. Beto has also said, yeah I wasn't confident last season, now I feel that all my training, all my mental work, all the work I do with my teammates is paying off and that I believe that I belong in the Premier League. Yeah I was just going to say something that might not be that popular with all Everton

fans, but I do think one of the reasons, again, yeah, one of the reasons why Moyes has been able to be successful is he's clearly inherited, despite the fact that Everton clearly was struggling a little bit under Sean Dyche, he's inherited a defence that's been well drilled for several seasons by Sean Dyche. He's inherited a defence that's been well drilled for several seasons by Sean Dyche. If it wasn't for Sean Dyche, Everton would probably be in the championship, I would say. And actually, I don't think once they get into that stadium and everything starts to look rosy, new ownership, I don't think they should forget the job that he did with point deductions last season. even this season to be honest I still think

if Dietz should have stayed at the club you'd seen it enough times over the years from him where his team had maybe had a bad run over the start of the season then put together four or five slightly scruffy wins and found a way through. So it's Moyes that's happened to do that but I really what I would dislike quite strongly is the idea that Sean Dyett should be in any way discredited for the work he's done over the past few years just because David Royce has come in and had... I don't think Kevitz and fans would do that. No I think he was the right man at the right time but I think it was also the right time for him to move on and I think he knew that himself I think it had worn it down yeah probably and I'm not surprised

I mean that was also but wasn't you see didn't you see plenty of Everton games where even under Dyche they created lots of chances and just couldn't score yeah I don't know which ones you were watching Adam No there were at the start of the season there were a few yes yeah but I think the I think the message from Sean Dice and his staff was probably wearing a little bit thinner. And the players weren't as receptive to their messages and the same voice going over and over again. Maybe it did need a freshen up. And obviously it did because it's worked.

Chris, thank you. Thank you. Adam as well, welcome back to The Fold, Stephen too. That's the end of the Monday Night Club.