Football Daily - Monday Night Club: PSG's journey to success and England get set for Spain

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Kelly Cates is joined by Steph Houghton and Adam Crafton on this week's Monday Night Club.The three are joined by French football journalist, Matt Spiro to reflect on PSG's journey towards winning the Champions League. Does Dembele deserve the Ballon d'Or? Have PSG set the precedent for a new football trend? And what next for Inter?Then, Vicki Sparks joins the pod from Barcelona ahead of the Lionesses' final Nations League group game against world champions Spain. We hear from Lucy Bronze as well as Sarina Wiegman, and look ahead to next month's European Championship.Next, is Liam Delap edging closer to joining Chelsea? And will he play in the Club World Cup or the U21 Euros? We hear from Lee Carsley on the immediate future of the Ipswich Town striker.And finally, after Oldham Athletic beat Southend United 3-2 at Wembley to book their place back in the EFL, Oldham boss Micky Mellon joins the pod.Timecodes: 00:22 PSG's historic European victory 05:10 Should Dembele win the Ballon d'Or? 11:43 PSG's transformation this season 24:18 What next for Inter? 27:36 A lookahead to England v Spain 29:02 Lucy Bronze interview 31:05 Mary Earps' retirement 36:48 Sarina Wiegman interview 43:47 Lee Carsley on Liam Delap 49:06 Micky Mellon joins the podBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries: Tue 1800 Spain v England women in the Nations League Sat 1700 Andorra v England men in World Cup Qualifying

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily podcast, the Monday Nightclub with Kelly Kitts. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to the Monday Nightclub on the Football Daily podcast. I'm joined by former England captain Steph Horton and the Athletics, Adam Crafton. We'll start by talking about Paris Saint-Germain. They finally won the Champions League at the weekend. They did it with the biggest winning margin

in a Champions League or European Cup final. Steph will reflect on the performance in the final in a second specifically. But over the course of the tournament, certainly in the latter stages after the league phase, were they the best team in the Champions League this season? I think in terms of a team that had everything, I think they were very defensively disciplined

but also the attacking players and that youthfulness that showed to everybody that they could do and beat big teams and I think after that league stage initially when you're going to play the likes of Liverpool at Anfield and then you go and play against teams and I think after that league stage initially when you're going to play the likes of Liverpool at Anfield and then you go and play against Arsenal and you get yourself into a final I think for me they were probably a bit of a surprise team in this Champions League and I think progressively as they got through the stages of the tournament it was they kept on getting better and I think that's a sign of a really good team and ultimately the final was the final and they were so dominant it was definitely fairly well deserved.

We should before we go any further Adam sort of reflect on how they got there. We will be talking about the football but it seems remiss not to mention that. Well PSG's story over the past what decade and a half now almost has been this kind of remarkable story of Qatari ownership that has poured money after money after, sort of bad money after bad money in many ways, chasing this success. And they found it really, really difficult to get over the line and win the Champions League. They've obviously completely dominated French football

for a long time, but the Champions League story has been this dramatic story of spectacular failure. I mean, you would almost tune in to PSG in the knockout stages, even when they had a commanding lead, as we saw against Barcelona famously, when they lost the, was it 6-1, 7-1, the famous comeback called the Remontado, and then there was the night where Marcus Rashford

scores that penalty for Manchester United, there was a year-rail Madrid broke their hearts. So this kind of just went on and on, and they had Messi, they had Neymar, they had Mbappe, Ibrahimovic, going way back, David Beckham was even there at the start. So this kind of story of superstars that have been unable to get over the line.

And I think where it becomes, I suppose the story where, you know, if you're trying to explain the importance of team sport to your kids, for example, the past year of PSG has been quite nice in the sense of, well, the superstars have already left and the team collective has produced a far better outcome and performance. So I think there's something quite wholesome in there.

I think there's also clearly been huge financial expenditure, far more than Inter Milan, their opponents on Saturday night. So I think it's kind of conflicting in many ways, but the performance, as it's been throughout the knockouts really, was pretty spectacular. We're also joined by French football journalist Matt Spiro, and that performance, as the guys have been saying Matt, was just phenomenal, yet again, from Paris Saint-Germain.

And it does feel, in terms of their performances in this competition, that they've turned a corner. Hi Kelly. Yeah, well, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, everything Adam was saying, it's been a decade of trauma really for PSG fans and for a lot of their players. And if you saw Marquinhos sort of breaking down in tears at the final whistle, it's because as well,

he's been through so much. He's often had the finger pointed at him as somebody who isn't mentally strong enough, because when it really matters, they did always crumble. But absolutely, it is a triumph for the team. Ethic, Luis Enrique has forged a fantastic team. And I don't think anybody expected Saturday's final to play out as it did. I think even the sort of optimistic PSG fans thought it would be close and that PSG would edge it. So the reaction over here has been unbelievable.

It's been similar to what happened after the World Cup wins in 98 and 2018, which I'm a bit surprised about because PSG have been divisive over here as well. But everybody has really taken to this team the way they played. And I think there's a real sense of pride, not just among PSG fans, but nationally here,

given France's awful record as well in European competitions. For a big nation, they've only won Champions League, only one other European competition as well. So yeah, the things have been amazing. We've had Ousmane Dembele on centre court at Roland Garros bringing the trophy on. It does feel like a national victory as much as anything. Usman Dembele is the player that Luis Enrique said should be winning the Ballon d'Or.

Is that a kind of consensus that we can come to? I mean, it's an understatement to say he's certainly in the running, but Matt, he could very, very easily win this. Oh yeah, yeah, no, brilliant. I mean, Dembele since January time has been absolutely astonishing. He's a player that I've always loved. I know he can be infuriating. A lot of people, you know, thought he'd never turn into this player who had this finishing

product and was able to score goals. But from when he was 17, 18, playing in Wren, he's just had this incredible balance, this ability to dribble both feet. And he's been transformed by it by Luis Enrique. If you go back to October, when Luis Enrique left him out of the game against Arsenal, which was a very important game at the time, because he turned up a bit late to training and his reaction to that and the way he's taken to Luis Enrique's tactics and instructions. I mean, the game on Saturday, his pressing was astonishing, his work rate was astonishing and he is a leader. Luis Enrique says that. He's the top scorer. He's the guy who causes all the problems. So for me, he's absolutely, for me, he's the favorite for the Ballon d'Or.

I'd love to see him win it because he's a little bit, I don't know if an anti-star is exaggerating, but he's certainly, you know, he was signed because Mbappe, partly because Mbappe wanted him to be his sort of sidekick and he's a mate of Mbappe's and he's just kind of like surged into the limelight. And I don't think there is the same ego that some of the Messi's, Neymar's and Mbappe's had. He doesn't seem to worry about whether he's going to be the star in the final. I think he was really happy to play a sort of supporting role on Saturday as well. And yeah, there was a time where it felt like he was being, as you say, pushed towards that

superstardom and it certainly seemed from the outside looking in that he might be a player who would quite enjoy that. And Steph Steph that's why I think his transformation has been so interesting that he's had Luis Enrique go in and and be quite tough with him at at times and we've seen the the transformational effect that's had in the in the second half of the season. I've been really impressed with Luis Enrique I think in terms of what he's done with this team I think we've spoke a lot about how they played as a team. I think PSG previously, the likes of Mbappe, Neymar, Messi,

I can remember watching them at Manchester City and you're thinking, oh my God, these superstars are here. But what they did for the team wasn't enough for them to get victories in them few years when PSG were so desperate to win the Champions League. And it just shows that if you have a manager that allows players to be kind of pointing the same direction, being able to work for the team no matter who you are or who you're playing against and that was probably a theme throughout the whole of

the Champions League campaign was that this was a team that was young, that was energetic but had leaders like Marquinhos who's been there, done it, got the experience but also allowed these young players to go and flourish and do what they need to do. But the expectation was you've got to work back. You've got to defend. You've got to, it doesn't matter who scores the goals. It's if the team wins.

And that was so evident on Saturday and throughout the whole competition. So Enrique has got a big part of playing Dembele's performance this season especially. And I think that game, when he got taken out against Arsenal I think as a play sometimes you need that little bit of a kick and you need a little bit of a kind of okay this is what I've got to do to keep performing and that certainly worked in his favour and when we're speaking about Ballon d'Or I'm thinking Raphina you're thinking about Yamal but I think Dembele and obviously Mo Salah we've not even mentioned

him in this conversation but I think to gole and obviously Mo Salah, we've not even mentioned him in this conversation, but I think to go and win a Champions League and produce the stats that he has this season, he's been pretty scary all around. He has and the influences, as Steph pointed out there, of Luis Enrique has been really important to him as it has been to the whole team, Adam, but it's not just about having those ideas

as previous managers at PSG have found out. You can have the ideas and you can have the players. What you have to do is get the players to listen to you and that's where Enrique has succeeded, where managers in the past have failed for whatever reason. Yeah, I wonder whether I was at the same game as you, Steph, where PSG went to City. I think it finished 2-1 and at the night,

there was, I think, Messi and Barpe and Neymar and you're almost watching this team and it's an amazing experience, like one of those experiences you'll never forget because you're watching these players all on the same pitch, but it was like seven in defence, three up front and it wasn't a team, like you're waiting for the counter attack because it's so exciting, but you're looking at them and just thinking they're not a team and City at that point under pet very much were an incredible team I think where Enrique's maybe being fortunate is on a couple of points And to be clear, I mean he's maximized that fortune But what works well for him is he obviously comes in after the World Cup where the strategy for PSG I think

Really has changed. It's changed from being we want names, we want to build this brand, we want to build this kind of nation-building project really for Qatar linked to the World Cup and then coming out after that it's been a lot more around how do we make this more French focused. Looking at the talent within France a little bit more. I think a big moment a few years ago, PSG lost the Champions League final and Kingsley Coman scores the winner for Bayern Munich. That was a player who had come out of Paris

scoring the winner against PSG. And that's quite humiliating in many ways for PSG, for that to happen to them. So I think there was a bit more of a focus. We saw players from the academy come off the bench on Saturday night in the Champions League final. I think that's significant. But where he also had this fortune is because they were redeveloping this project, I think it gave more patience in the autumn where, you know, PSG had lost a few games. Even if you think back to the Man City game they had

in maybe October, November, they're 2-0 down in that game. They came back, they went 3-2, 4-2, I think, in the end. And really from there, it's just felt like they've got stronger and stronger and stronger. And actually, even in those games against Liverpool, I thought was shocking. You're watching PSG and you're like, wow, this team is, they're faster than Liverpool, they're stronger than Liverpool, the passes are going more crisply, and Liverpool are a great team. And I was watching that thinking, this is a different PSG. And it was only really what, that 20-minute period

at Aston Villa, where Rashford looks pretty much on fire, where you're worried about PSG, because apart from that, they've looked pretty superior to everyone they've played. Matt, what happened to them in that time between just a bit of a change of the year? Because they did, they looked very different from the side that lost to Arsenal before Christmas and knocked Arsenal out of the competition after Christmas. It felt like, as Adam said, it was that leg at home against Liverpool where everybody suddenly sat up and went,

Oh, this is what this team's capable of. Yeah. I think the turning point was the game that Adam mentioned, probably the Man City game. It was towards the end of the group stage. It was actually in January. They played pretty well in the first half, didn't score. And then City got two goals at the start of the second half and everyone thought, here we go. Because at that point, I think PSG were 24th in the, in the group stage. And if they lost to City, it was again, you know, another humiliation, they're going to go out of this group stage. And then, for whatever reason, something clicked in that last half an hour, they scored

four goals, they were astonishingly good. And I think that gave them the belief they were already playing pretty well in Ligue 1. Over those previous few weeks, they've been scoring goals. And I think doing it against Man City when it really mattered for them in the Champions League gave them the belief that they could do it against the top teams. But I think everything you said about Luis Enrique is completely right. And we shouldn't forget that six months ago, a lot of people were calling for his head, saying it's not working here at PSG. The performances were not particularly good. There was

this possession football that wasn't really resulting in anything. So I think it's as well, you know, we may not want to or we may want to, but I think the Qatari owners also deserve credit for being able to change that sporting policy, for being able to show faith not just in young players but also in the manager. When you've got the right manager, he needs time. And everything, like you say, everything has clicked. And with that confidence, with the work that Luis Enrique has been doing on the training ground for the previous 18 months, they've turned into this fantastic site. Steph, I just wanted to ask you about the fullbacks as a player, what a difference it makes. Cause every time I watch them, I'm like, I'm kind of,

I don't really see fullbacks like Hakimi and Mendes anywhere else, maybe Trent and Robertson a few years ago. But what difference does it make to a team when you have both the energy and quality going back and forth? Yeah, it's a massive difference. And you look at Hakimiimi especially these last couple of games in the Champions League and in terms of I think we kind of point out that physically PSG

are up there. I think Liverpool is a great comparison you look at Liverpool physicality that is what one of their major strengths is and when they played at Anfield PSG were dominant and even at the Man City game in the group stage I think that was the difference from a physical point of view. PSG put subs on that last half hour and City couldn't cope with that tempo. But I think Akimi especially, I think, for me playing per cent a half previously,

if I had a full back like that, I'm like, I'm giving them the ball every single time. And I'm thinking just push them back as far as you can. And that's exactly what they did on Saturday was they used their wide players to be essentially forwards but also when they needed to get back they really got back and they were able to put in and they were very good 1v1 defenders and it didn't allow Inter Milan to get any control

of the game so yeah I think they are world-class both of them on either side and you can see that I think the most important thing is the consistency of their performance from an individual perspective no matter who they've came against in terms of wingers they've always been on top and that's a big kind of part of their philosophy is allowing their wide players to be physical but also from a technical point of view create and score goals at the other side as well. We've talked about the full backs, obviously we talked about the chance of Dembele winning the Ballon d'Or, Desiree Dewey with a fantastic season for Paris Saint-Germain as well. Can we talk about Kavicik Varets Kalea? Because I think he might be the most interesting and

exciting player around at the moment, Matt, because he, again, as Adam was saying about the full backs, he's not really like anyone else. No, no, I was wondering who you were going to say that because like there are so many fantastic stories and some of the guys they've bought. It's just pick a favourite, isn't it really? Yeah, we've been talking about him, Drow Neves, I mean, what a player he is at the age of 20. But yeah, I mean, you talk about what happened, what changed with PSG. We didn't mention the fact that they spent 70 million euros on Kvaritxelya in January. So they kind of found the missing piece to the jigsaw, if you like. The attack wasn't

really functioning. Randall Colomwani, who had been bought for 90 million euros, was sent out on loan to Juventus because Luis Enrique just wasn't playing him. Luis Enrique has barely played Gonzalo Ramos, who scores pretty much every time he comes on, but clearly he doesn't want to play with a sort of conventional number nine. And Kvarich Elia, I mean, he's just been an absolute joy to watch ever since he came in. They tried to buy him actually last summer, both Luis Campos and Luis Enrique. He was the one guy they were both unanimous about that they wanted to get. You can see why.

He's a proper throwback, isn't he? Like the way he runs at players. Again, so too fitted. And again, a bit like Dembele, just works incredibly hard as well. So it's just a fantastic guy to have in your team. 23 years of age, but actually with quite a lot of experience because he's won City out three years ago and again this

year to go with his French dub, French treble now. So yeah, he's had a pretty good season. Yeah, a player getting that much freedom and actually sometimes, Steph, a player wanting that much freedom can be unusual. Yeah, definitely. I look at him and I think he's quite raw. That's in the sense of how he plays. And I think he's a lot of how it is in that moment in time. I think sometimes as a player, you're automatically thinking what the next kind of thing

that you're going to do. But I think for him, it's just whatever he reacts to in that moment. And an unbelievable sign in for PSG, I think his numbers speak for himself, but also the presence that he has in that game. And I think for me, that experience and winning them competitions

and knowing what it takes to win, you could quite clearly see that on Saturday that it was just a normal game to him and that experience kind of showed. Yeah, it was a fantastic performance from him and he got the goal to add to it as well. Matt, do you want to talk then about João Neves and his performances? Because again, at 20 years of age, he is just

... I mean, you're right, you could go through what would be one to 11. You could go through all 11 and say, you know, and wax lyrical about them. But I know you've mentioned João Neves, so let's go for him. Yeah, he's 20 going on 14. If you stand opposite him, which I've done once or twice, honestly, he just looks like this little schoolboy and you think how are you like in the thick of these battles. But he wins an awful lot of balls in the football match. He runs, you know, nonstop and he's obviously got

fantastic intelligence in terms of, you know, how to play the game, where to position himself. One of the reasons as well that Hakimi, you know, can bomb up the right-hand side is because Shirao Neves will often sit in and cover for him and I think he's an absolutely fantastic player to have a wonderful signing, hopefully for PSG's sake, he'll be there for many years. But I think, you know, you talk about Nevers, you have to talk about the whole midfield because what I love about Betina and Fabian Rui is, Fabian Rui is a bit of an unsung hero because he's given them this steal and again, in-game intelligence, fantastic. And they all kind of can do a bit

of everything. Like there's not necessarily one guy who's the tackler, one guy who's the passer, one guy who can shoot. They all chip in with goals, they all cover the ground, they can all pass the football. That understanding has just really, really developed over the last few months. They just seem to know where the space is, how to find one another. Before the final, people were saying that the key is going to be who wins that midfield battle. Honestly, I don't see any team in Europe at the moment winning that midfield battle against PSG. Matt, lovely to talk to you. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you very much to Matt Spiro.

Adam, I've just is occurring to me as we're talking about this, about, you know, Paris Saint-Germain ditching their Galactico policy of still spending a lot of money, but ditching their big superstar policy. And I wonder if as we've come out at the end of the Messi-Ronaldo era and football does love a trend, whether it's possession-based football or game pressing, whatever it is, I wonder if this is the new trend in the absence of someone. For years we asked the question, who's going to be the next Messi or Ronaldo? What's going to be the next battle?

I wonder if actually that's not it. I wonder if we're moving towards something that's more similar to the Paris Saint-Germain model. Yeah, I mean even if you're okay you could look at Liverpool and say Mo Salah but I don't look at Salah fairly or unfairly and see him as like a Ronaldo or Messi. Maybe that's a bit unfair given his numbers, but I think a lot of it comes from the personality and the cult that surrounds it, the brand that surrounds some of these names. Maybe some of this generation, they don't want to necessarily be the one or two. Maybe what we're actually going to get is nine or 10 players who make a really exciting generation.

I look at the World Cup next summer and I think, well, you might actually end up with Ronaldo and Messi there anyway, but then you've also got Mbappe, Harland, Jamin Lamau, Douay, Dembele, Bellingham, I would put in that bracket, you know, when he's at his best. So, yeah, maybe we are slightly moving towards

having no longer a duopoly. I think previously we've looked at so much of what we talked about through football for a decade or so was through the prism of, are you Messi or Ronaldo, even, you know, Nike and Adidas, one was one, one was the other. One was Real Madrid, one was Barcelona. It was always like pitting the one against the other. I'm not sure that's necessarily the thing. What I would say is I think maybe Mbappe and Harland were meant to be the heirs to that, but I'm not sure it's quite, not that they're not sensational, you know.

Mbappe's sort of walked out from whatever. Yeah, but it's not worked out for Mbappe, and then obviously as he leaves Paris Central, they go and win the Champions League, that damages the brand if you like. And for Harland, it's been part of being, you know, in that City team that haven't hit the heights in this season just gone.

But also because actually, City are probably the team that have been doing this for a while, Steph, where there's lots of fantastic players, but there isn't one. And sometimes that's why, you know, when City players talk about not getting individual awards, and I know it's something that the club aren't necessarily happy about, but sometimes it's because there's too many city players to choose from and the vote gets split.

Yeah, I mean, not last season, but the season before that when Phil Foden's winning play of the year, but you look at the performances of the likes of John Stones, Ruben Diaz, Kevin De Bruyne, there's so many players you can put into that bracket, but I think because there's so many games in this calendar, I think a lot of teams can't just rely on one person to continuously win 54, 60 games, because ultimately you just can't do that as a human being, as a footballer,

as much as you probably want to. The likes of Pep, the likes of Arnais Slott come next year when you're playing every three or four days. Mo Salah probably will try and wanna play as many of them games, but ultimately, it's physically impossible to do that and repeat the same performance that he's probably done this season.

And I think for me, the gap's getting closer. I think the likes of Messi, Ronaldo were in an era where there was a little bit of a gap in terms of ability and what you could do. You look at Ronaldo and how he looked after himself in terms of his nutrition, the extra training that he did. Now that is the norm for a lot of players, that is what people are really investing in. So then that gap of them players that you spoke about, the likes of Bale, Dembele, Dewey, Rafinha, you look at Yamal, like they look at Yamal and he's probably the closest thing that potentially could get to a Messi because the fact he's left-footed, he dribbles the way that he is, he's a Barcelona so

there's some comparisons there but ultimately now as an individual footballer you are doing everything that you can to be at the top of the game so hence why clubs are like okay for a blanket approach I just need to get as many good players as I can and hope that a coach can improve them and we can save money we can bring academy players through to try and produce the same performances and compete at the highest level. And Adam as fantastic as PSG were it was crushing for Inter and the president Giuseppe Marotta has said Simone and Zaghi will stay at the club. He said the defeat won't have an impact. Almost all the credit for this positive cycle is due to his professionalism and abilities and if he wants to continue

we're happy. So he's kind of nothing is certain but he's kind of indicated in what seems like quite a genuine way that he wants Zaghi to on as as head coach. But this has to be bruising for them. Where does this leave Inter? Well, it's difficult, right, because they've had two finals in the last three or four years or so and obviously lost both times. But actually, you know, if you balance what they spend and their wage budget against some of the big teams, whether it's Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, and then many teams really in the Premier League who they can't really compete with in the transfer market.

So the job he's done has been pretty incredible to knock out Barcelona and Bayern over two legs in the quarterfinals and semifinals. I think what it's been for them, it's not just the Champions League, they've also had a really titanic battle for Serie A, which they lost out to Napoli right at the end of the season. So I suppose that's maybe where they came into the final

already tired in many ways, and then you're up against the most physical team with all these kind of fresh young faces against the oldest team in the tournament in Inter. So I think that's gonna be tough. They do have, they have a reasonably recent ownership change with the American private equity firm kind of taking over control.

And I think what you're also gonna have to see from Inter is a bit of a rebuild in terms of the age balance of the squad. What is good for them is because of the champions league finish they've had and the club world cup that they're in this summer, which they'll, looking at the teams in the competition, they probably get to at least the quarterfinals, you would think. So they should get from their Champions League and Club World Cup around a combined 150 million plus to fuel that rebuild. So that gives them an advantage that certainly some other teams in

Italy won't have. So I do think it gives them space. I think within Zaghi it'll probably be his own decision. It may be he just thinks, I've done as much as I can here, but he may also think people's minds are so recent that he's in danger of being the coach who lost 5-0, rather than the coach who took a team above the odds to tie to Serie A titles and two Champions League finals, which would be a shame for him. Women's Football Weekly on the Football Daily. I'm Ben Haynes. I'm Ellen White.

And I'm Jen Beattie. And on Tuesdays on the Football Daily, we bring you the Women's Football Weekly. Really pleased with the fact we are now champions and we got this title. We had time to enjoy with the fans and we'll have some time with friends and family after the game.

As we dive head first into all things WSL and beyond in the Women's game. Women's Football Weekly only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC sounds. On the football daily podcast, the Monday night club with Kelly Kitts. Listen on BBC sounds. Tuesday night on five live we have women's nations league commentary of the European champions England against the world champions Spain. England must win to top the group and progress to the finals and Vicky Sparks joins us from a very windy Barcelona, Vicky.

Hola Kelly, hola. I should have said breezy Barcelona, shouldn't I really? Breezy Barcelona, indeed, indeed. Yes, we're in the centre of Barcelona and it is incredibly windy. We're sitting outside of restaurants and our BBC colleague Emma Sanders actually came down here earlier to put the table and actually saw a chair blow into the main road that is just away to my left and also a man sprinting after the chair to try and stop it hitting the cars. Thankfully he was successful but yes warm evening here and warm for England as they were doing their open training

at the Espanyol stadium where they will be taking on as you say the reigning world champion Spain in this final Nations League decider tomorrow night. Yeah Vicky not an evening for a pavement cafe I would have thought tonight but it gives us some indications. Do you know what we've got kind of plastic all around us as well which is flapping very noisily so if you hear that in the background that is that's what that is. Well it might well give us an indication as to what the conditions could be like for the the game itself but of course England come into this one having beaten Portugal 6-0 last week. Let's hear from defender Lucy Bronze.

Obviously the group's been a bit up and down but it was nice to play at Wembley the other day, get a really good win, really good team performance. A lot of players back as well from injury which is nice to see Georgia, Stanway, Alex Greenwood, Lauren Hemp coming back into the team doing really well. So positive all round. Yeah, I thought Hempoh seemed like she'd never been away. Yeah, I mean she's young isn't she's full of energy she's a good girl I think she's worked really hard I mean all three of them worked really hard to get back to fitness and all three of them had complicated injuries but it's

so nice you know as a teammate of theirs I'm so happy that all three of them are back. You mentioned it's been up and down obviously this is the first time we, Five Live, have spoken to you since the news about Mary obviously from a personal perspective you know her so well it must have been difficult to take really. Yeah I mean I'm really close with Mary, I'd spoke to her a lot during the week and in previous camps and stuff. She's done so much for the team, I mean we're so happy that we've even had the chance to play with her and everything that she's done for the Lionessers, for goalkeepers has been amazing. I think we're just happy

to be able to have celebrated that career with her. She's made her decision and we just as a team look forward to this game and then the Euros ahead of ourselves. You talk about looking forward. It did seem when the team came out and the way you started so brilliantly against Portugal, did it feel like there was something to prove but just something to show that togetherness and like, right, we recognise what Mary has done for England, but now we as a team, we're going forward into a huge tournament and we want to show that. Was there

any sense of that? Yeah, I think since Christmas we've kind of showed that in a lot of games. Like this New England, England that's looking forward to the Euros, that's fighting in the Nations League. Obviously there's been slight blips in performances but I think we've tried our best to come out fighting in as many games as possible. Previously at Wembley against Spain as well, I think we saw that. Then at home we've had a lot of good games. So yeah, I guess we're just focused on the next game now against Spain, wanting to have that same fast start, big energy and a good win. Yeah really good to hear from Lucy Bronze there. Vicky Sparks is with us from Barcelona.

Steph I wanted to ask you about the change in goalkeeper because you know there's only been, it's only the 15th cap for Hannah Hampton and she's coming in in difficult circumstances where Mary-Ups could have been part of the squad but has decided to retire from international football and she's such a big personality in that camp, how difficult does it make life for Hannah Hampton? Firstly, I think it's a surprise to solve the fact that Mary decided to retire a few days before this nation league retire a few days before this nation league and a few weeks before a big European championship

for England, obviously the holders at this moment in time, and how much of a big personality Mary Earps is and what she has done over these last few years. And I can always remember Mary, 2017-year-old, she came with us to Holland and she was fourth choice keeper and we took four keepers and she was not she wasn't in the squad and she worked so hard behind the scenes to help me with my free kicks the strikers with their shooting after training and she knew that she wasn't even going to be on the bench so her kind of rise into the England side I think I hope people don't

think that because potentially there's a question about her being number one she's been through that kind of path potentially there's a question about her being number one. She's been through that kind of path where she's had to wait her turn and she's had to prove herself and she's got herself in this position where she's won Golden Glove. She's been unbelievable for England, won a European championship. So from an England point of view, it's a huge miss in terms of what she could bring.

But I think for me, this is Hannah's moment. She now knows that she will be number one one and I think that gives her that confidence that she's gonna go into this tournament be number one and yet we might lack experience in that area but you've got the players like Lucy Bronze has just been on on there you've got the likes of Liam Williamson, Alex Greenwood you've got players that are around her not necessarily a goalkeeper but have that experience and Hannah's played in big games for Chelsea this year. She's been their number one.

They've won three trophies now. I think that kind of says it all, that Serena does have the trust in her, even though if it was Mary, we'd still maybe have a bit of a question mark whether they'll be number one and two. But the previous game, it's against Spain at Wembley. Hannah Hampton got chosen, so I think that was the way game it's against Spain at Wembley, Hannah Hampton got chosen so I think that was the way that it was going to go. Mary Earps is going to be a massive miss but ultimately I think Hannah, even though 15 caps is not a lot in international football,

she has a lot of club experience in big, big games. Yeah and that's going to be absolutely crucial for all that experience that she's had at Chelsea, particularly over this season Vicky.icky. But you look at the England performances, you look at the 6-0 win against Portugal last week, so you can't really judge on that because Hannah Hampton wasn't really called into action in that one. But she does have that experience of being in the camp and being around the players and around Serena Vigman. Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, at Wembley on Friday night, that's it. She was the story because of Mary Earp's shock retirement

in the week and everybody was watching, to see how she'd handle it and she had very little to do. She could have just popped back to the dressing room for the second half in all honesty. But I think one key element of this, and Serena Wiegman said in April that Hannah Hampton was a little bit ahead of Mary Earp in the race to be number one. But I'm sure that Serena'sigman said in April that Hannah Hampton was a little bit ahead of Mary Earps in the race to be number one but I'm sure that Serena's plan for

Hannah at these Euros, if she was number one, a huge part of that plan off the pitch and I'd be really interested to hear Steph's opinion on this as well but a huge part of that I'm sure would have been the fact that if Hannah Hampton is number one you've got Mary Earps there as the number two doing exactly what you talked about Steph going into those 2017 Euros. Yes, Mary being fourth choice at that point, but Mary being able to give Hannah all of that experience in training, that advice as they go through the tournament of having been England's number one at the Euros that they won in 2022 and at the World Cup in

2023 where they finished runners-up, and that has been lost as well. So it's not just about whether Hannah was going to be starting ahead of Mary Earps, the question is how much does this dense arena of Eagmans overall plan for Hannah Hampton being number one given that now Hannah Hampton is the most experienced goalkeeper in that set of goalkeepers? It is interesting because I think in these tournaments the bench play a massive, massive part in being able to kind of support the players that are playing but also be ready to finish the job and that goalkeeper union that everybody speaks about is very specialist in the sense of you don't really get many opportunities from the bench if you are not

named number one to go on and play and you have to be that supportive person and the keepers that I've played with in terms of the likes of Rachel Brown Finesse, look at Karen Bardsley, they've both done the number one but also been number two and being able to play that kind of support role and to use their experience to allow the likes of Ellie Roebuck to come through and to be England's number one so that is probably my worry is that who is going to be that person for Hannah Hampton in their moments where the big games are going to come. The first opening game against France, then you play against Netherlands and they are big, big games with a lot of pressure on and

you need wins in them first two games. Who is going to be that person to kind of calm Hannah down? And I think even though she's been experienced in terms of playing but you don't know what that brings when it's your first European Championship as an England number one and it's a totally different mindset and different perspective so I think for me personally I think Serena will be probably a little bit devastating the fact that you don't have that little bit of experience and someone that's played in finals and being able to cope with that pressure and playing for England.

And that's the thing that's going to have to be sorted between now and the start of the Euros. In the meantime, of course, it's Spain up next. Let's hear from Serena Wigman with England, of course, having beaten Spain 1-0 at Wembley in February. Yeah, well, I think we played well then. I think they played really good too. Yeah, you could tell that it was a very competitive game, very intense. At moments, we were a bit lucky. But we also played very well.

We could have scored the 2-0 too. So that's how close that match was. And I hope tomorrow we can show that again and, of course, win it again. But it's going to be, I think, a very intense and exciting game again. Yeah, there's been so many narratives around these games. Obviously, finishing League A for the World Cup qualifiers, which you've already done, prepare for the Euros.

But also, just talk to us about how important it is from your perspective and how much you would like to get to the Nations League final as an objective in and of itself. Yeah, of course, you always want to go and play finals, so you would like to get to the Nations League final as an objective in and of itself? Yeah, of course, you always want to go and play finals, so you always want to win. So that's what we're going to try tomorrow too. What I just said, we are in a good position now for the World Cup draw. That was step one in this camp, step two in this camp that we want to do again really well tomorrow against Spain. We want to win that game.

And at the same time, we're preparing for the Euros. So we also look at the bigger picture. And just talking about that bigger picture, you name your squad on Thursday. How set is the squad of 23 in your mind right now? How many more final decisions do you feel that you have to make or are you pretty much there? Yeah, we still have to make some decisions, of and of course we're getting closer because we're getting closer to that moment. But you always have to wait. So we play again tomorrow, that will give us another team performance which always gives

you a little more information and then after that we'll make the final decisions of course. And that's, yeah, that's gives some headaches. But I think that's very good to have some headaches. Yes, Serena Wigman, happy to have those selection headaches ahead of the Euros still to come. But of course, they still have to qualify from from this tournament. Adam, the expectations around England now are not just that they they qualify for tournaments, but that they're and not just that they progress

through tournaments but they are actually challenging for the titles. Yeah, that's the expectation they've created by being successful and being talented and also being well resourced as well. But I think what we did see at the World Cup, when the World Cup was made bigger than previously, I think some people thought, oh, well, will all these other nations be ready to compete? And what you saw was a highly competitive World Cup. So, at the same time as England are getting better all the time, so are many of their rivals.

And that makes for a really competitive environment. Something I was gonna ask Vicky was how it's looking with Lauren James and whether we think she is going to make the squad or whether even are we going to have one of those situations we've seen so many times with the men's side over the year when maybe won't be fit for the first game but can get involved later in the tournament. Where do you think that's at Vicky? Yeah in terms of Lauren James it is a

great question Adam because she has asked about that every single press conference arena big men so yeah she was asked again today and basically the the message is she's recovering from a hamstring injury it's looking pretty positive and Serena Vigman keeps sending out this message that you know she can take a risk on taking one or two players that as you say may not be fit enough to start the tournament but may be fit enough to play some part later on in the tournament and Lauren James is one of those players you know she's a to start the tournament but maybe fit enough to play some part later on in the tournament. And Lauren James is one of those players.

She's a game changer. She's capable of, even if it's just coming off the bench, making the difference in a game for England. She's a hugely talented player. And so I think unless she is definitively ruled out and she's not going to be back until mid-August then I think she is a player that Serena Vigman would would take a risk on. And there's also Vicky players coming back to fitness like Alex Greenwood, Lauren Hemt, Georgia

Stanway who've all got some some minutes but maybe aren't up to full match fitness yet. Yeah interesting as well because she was specifically asked is every you know she said everybody's available apart from grace grace Clinton Who suspended because of accumulation of yellow cards for tomorrow's game? And she was specifically asked is everybody fit enough to start and she said yes now That's big news for the likes of george stanway who made her first appearance for club or country since december in the match against portugal She came off the bench so did alex greenwood and laurenemp as well started the game. Now Greenwood and Hemp have been back for Manchester City since the end of April, but particularly to see Stanway get those minutes. So I think again, they

will get more minutes and she is very much seeing this. I think it's interesting when we were trying to get that answer out of her, which again, she's been asked so many times about how close are you to knowing your squad already for the Euros. She did also touch on in the press conference that you know this game is about preparation for the Euros and I don't think we're going to see fringe players getting an opportunity tomorrow. You know possibly you know a couple of appearances off the bench but even against Portugal all the players that played were pretty much players you think will be in that Euro squad and I think with just this game to go and also friendly against Jamaica before they

open in that huge match against France on the 5th of July, I think this is going to be about giving players that are going to be in the side or coming off the bench and playing a big part of the tournament this summer, you know, the opportunity to play. And as we say, you know, there's the Nations League finals at stake. They need to beat Spain to qualify for that. But also if they win the group, that means they're one of the top seeds for World Cup qualifying for 2027.

And that's really important because it's only the winners of the groups in League A that automatically go through to the World Cup in 2027 when you get to the qualifiers. Everybody else has to go through the playoffs. And because of the way that the women's game is at the moment where you've got, you know, six or seven really strong teams it's really

tough if you end up you know that second seed which England have been for a few of these tournaments and few of these qualifiers you can end up in a group with Spain as they are in this Nations League you can end up in a group with Germany or France or potentially Sweden and that's tricky so that there's there's still quite a lot at stake here beyond just the facts of the Nations League in terms of the World Cup qualifiers and of course prepping to hit the ground running in what is a really really tough group at the Euros no time to settle in they've got to be at the top of their game by

the time they kick off against France. Vicky Sparks in Barcelona thank you very much for joining us. Muchas gracias. Thank you. There are also reports that Liam de Lapp has completed part of his medical at Chelsea. That could be good news for Chelsea fans, but maybe not so much for England fans, because de Lapp is currently part of the Under-21 squad for the Euros, which starts next Wednesday. But that clashes with the Club

World Cup. Here's the Under-21 boss, Lee Carsley. First and foremost, we have to remember the age of the players. They still need a lot of support, so we're supporting all of the players. We have room within our schedule to make sure that they get a chance if they need to have a medical or they need to speak to a club. We support them with that. Liam's one of two or three players that we're doing that with at the moment and like I say we always have to put the players first. Ideally I want them here, of course I do, you'll potentially want your strongest squad but we have to put the

players first and that's definitely what we're doing. So how does it work, is it a player decision about whether he stays with you or goes with Chelsea to the Club World Cup or is that put upon you by the club? No I think that FIFA have got precedent over our tournaments, so if that is the case, we've ended the players, their teams and their clubs will always come first in that competition. And how much does that mess your plans up, the player you've built with through? Well, yeah, I think it's something that we've been preparing for. I think we always knew that we'd potentially lose two or three along the way,

so we've had to make sure that we're agile and we're ready to adapt. Hence why the first squad was a little bit bigger. So we're in a good position, we're in a really strong position. The players that are here have got a great chance of doing well in the tournament. Well, you can listen to all of England's Under-21 Euros matches across Five Live and Sports Extra with or without Liam de Lap, whether he's away at the Club World Cup if he signs as expected for Chelsea or if he stays with the under-21 squad. Look there isn't much of a

decision in this as far as the player is concerned because FIFA take precedence over the or the Club World Cup takes precedence by by FIFA over the the under-21s in the in the euros so it's a kind of hypothetical question, but what do you think's better for his development, Steph? That's such a hard question, Kelly. I'm thinking if you ever put in that position, how do you pick over your country and your club and a new club that you're signing for?

You wanna impress, you wanna hit the ground running. They're obviously paying a lot of money for you, but ultimately, he's been part of that England under-21s. That's probably one of the favorites to go and win a trophy. I think the best thing is that the decision isn't made by the player because I don't think you would get a decision. It would be so hard to kind of put yourself in that situation.

And it probably sounds like he's going to be going to the club world cup. I think that's probably the narrative that everybody's kind of going along, which is a shame because you want to see Liam de Lapp in an England jersey and you want to see him performing against his age and seeing what he can do against the best.

But yeah, what a sign of a Chelsea, by the way. What a season he had in an Ipswich side that really struggled, but ultimately, yeah, I don't know what I would do to be honest. I think you've got us stuck there, lost for words. There's a tricky one because it's such an inconsistent level of opposition, Adam. You could argue that potentially at the Euros maybe less so, but certainly at the Club World Cup there's a huge disparity between some of the players who are going to be there.

And, you know, the rules that have been changed to allow Ronaldo to play at this tournament which we may or may not see. No for sure I think it's a really hard one isn't it working out what's actually better for his development. I'd be inclined to say in many ways the Club World Cup is almost going to be Chelsea's pre-season to a certain extent, you know, and although they'll come back and have a little bit of a period before the season starts. But I do think that's an important period for him to get to know his new teammates, get to know the manager. I think where he's got an advantage with Chelsea, and I think this is partly probably why he's ended up there over other teams that were interested,

such as Newcastle and Manchester United is he'd worked with Enzo Maresca before in the Manchester City system. I think Joe Shields who's part of the recruitment team at Chelsea now was at Man City before as well and also he's got teammates in Romeo Lavia and Cole Palmer that he played with before at Man City. So I think that helps him go in he goes into a young team where there's a lot of players around the same age who will grow together. So I get that.

The other thing is, you know, you could say, oh, maybe he should go to the Euros because it's good tournament experience ahead of next summer potentially being at a World Cup. But what's better preparation for a World Cup in the United States than going to a club World Cup in the United States? So I think you can make an argument in every direction. But I think for him, you know, he's got, he will have the target in his mind, I have no doubt, of being

that first backup to Harry Kane at the World Cup in 2026. And he should be going into Chelsea, giving himself every chance of hitting the ground running when the season comes. So that when those September, October, November internationals come every other week, as it seems to feel like in that period, then he can, you know, try and gate crush Thomas Tuchel's squad. Yeah. And there will need to be that adjustment period for Liam de Lap if and when he does go to Chelsea. And we're across all the latest transfer news which you can follow on the BBC Sport website and that nine-day transfer window making sure that some of the biggest names in world football can be at that tournament helped of course by a total prize fund

of one billion dollars which is potentially what's attracted some of those clubs to participate in the Club World Cup. Oldham Athletic are back in the EFL after beating Southend 3-2 in the National League Playoff at Wembley. It's three years after Oldham were relegated following their 116 year stay in the Football League. Oldham boss Mickey Mellon is with us. Mickey I can't believe you're not still celebrating. The party's still going. You probably hear it in the back.

We're still at it now, so we're absolutely delighted for the community. So where are you off to now? Is it Boundary Park tonight? We've just done it. We're here now. The fans have all turned up. I think it's about 10,000 supporters turned up to show their thanks and we were able to show our thanks to them. So it's been a really special couple of days. It was amazing to see that record crowd. What was it? More than 52,000 at Wembley. It's an indication not just of how much the fans want this, but of what I think you said in

the aftermath of the win, that this is a monster of a football club. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was big before I came here, Kelly, and then I got here and got sort of underneath it. And you see that it's a real, real football town. They all love their football, turn up massive numbers. So it was really important that we tried to get them back into the football league and we're just so delighted to be able to achieve that. And then they turned up in massive numbers to go to Wembley and all and things are tight and tough at the minute and the amount of them that got done to Wembley were really appreciative of that. So it was fantastic.

Yeah, it was an incredible day. Oldham's first promotion in 34 years. look as people may or may not know Oldham on its way to extinction before Frank Rothwell bought it in 2022 and he was talking on Five Live this afternoon he said his son and daughter were born in the Royal Oldham Hospital which is just a couple hundred meters away from Boundary Park he said it's their inheritance that's being spent but I suppose if you're that local then you don't mind you don't mind too much. For you, Mickey, in terms of what's needed to get that long awaited promotion for Oldham, but for you, it's a third promotion to the EFL as manager.

That equals John Stills' record. It's your sixth promotion in your career in football. Is there anything that links promotion winning sides? Is there anything that they all have to sides? Is there anything that they all have to have? Because they've been very different clubs that you've done it with. Yeah, I think the easy answer to that, you have to have good players and good people. You certainly have to have that. And then you have to build that togetherness. And I mean that togetherness. When I first came in at Oldham, I was going through some tough

times and you have to get the big games to build that relationship with the supporters and the supporters with you and then you have to win them. And then if you get all that united and you get yourself some good players and you find a way of scoring goals and keeping clean sheets and all the rest of it, then you just keep moving forward.

And that's what we were able to achieve this season. Hi, Mickey, Congratulations on the win. Thank you. When it's halftime of extra time, and you've just gone two on down, and you know it's basically all or nothing for the next 15 minutes, what do you say to the players at that point?

It's about football. Again, it's about decision-making. I said to them, at halfttime, you'll get another chance. You always get chances in football. And just make sure that when it comes, that you have to know, you have to take it. And then make good decisions within that because they're all tired by that point

and there's no point in burning too much energy and making crazy runs or poor decisions. So we just spoke about decision-making. I said make good decisions for the last 15 minutes, making sure that if you run forward, that you're running forth and seeing the right opportunity to go maybe create a chance or score a goal and just be together and believe,

keep that character among you. Absolutely, you're gonna have to show character now. And they did that in abundance and it was fantastic again to the game, it was unbelievable. Mickey, as fantastic as winning through the play-offs is, it does mean that the rest of the league are going to have a bit of a head start on you in terms of planning. So as much as I don't want to interrupt your celebrations with practical thoughts, there's a busy few weeks coming up here.

Yeah, because we're sort of a month since the last league game, Kelly. So it's been a long playoff campaign. And you're absolutely right that you don't know what to plan for because in that month, you're sort of having one eye on, yeah, if we go up or what we're going to do, and if we don't go up, what are we going to do?

You sort of have to have the conversations tentatively. But of course your player pool opens up now because if they want to come to a good club like Oldham, logistically it's close to Manchester so it's a great place to live and the club's got great momentum. So the player pool now opens up for us and we can look at a different sort of profile of player now for the Football League. So yeah, you're absolutely right. And then we've got to look at the players that we have here now and have some conversations with some of them and see how we're going to go forward. But we're delighted with the group that we've got and, yeah, we will need to make additions, but we believe we'll be able to do that.

And I hope you've all got a nice holiday planned. You will get some time off, won't you, Mickey? I will. My boy got promoted to not Bradford, so we're all gonna be next week to Port. She was the first time there's been five kids. So, first time that they've all gone away with her partner. So, we'll have a lovely time over in Port. Yeah, they won't miss you then, Mickey. If anybody's there at the same time as you,

they're not gonna miss you. Everybody's celebrating on holiday. That's for sure. That's for sure. That's for sure. Oh, Mickey, congratulations. Thanks so much for coming on to talk to us. No, lovely. And thanks for talking to me as well.

I appreciate that. Thank you very much to Mickey Mellon. Congratulations as well to Oldham back in the EFL and a third promotion to the EFL as manager for Mickey Mellon as well. And that is it for this episode of the Monday Night Club. Thanks to Steph, to Adam, to all our guests and thank you very much for listening. See you next time. Football, a game of passion, rivalry and loyalty. But decades ago beneath the cheers and the chants lay a different kind of warfare called hooliganism.

On a match day, everyone was your enemy, everyone was going to kill you. We look over the brutal, bloody battles where punching below the belt was a way of life. It was just a day of mayhem, it's a day you dream of. Join me, Tony Bellew, as we hear from those bruising for a fight in the name of the firms that they belong to. We hated them, we hunted them, we battered them and nothing got in the way of football. Something they called the English disease. They were destroying the football club, the game I love. Gangster Presents Hooligans. Listen on BBC Sounds.