Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Rodgers resigns, Arsenal extend lead & Sunderland leapfrog Liverpool

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Andros Townsend on MNC this week!First up on this week's episode, former Celtic striker Chris Sutton reacts to the news that head coach Brendan Rodgers has resigned from the club. Then, the panel chat Sunderland who currently sit 4th in the Premier League, and Bournemouth who are still flying high! The team then discuss set-pieces with set-piece coach Andy Parslow, and Arsenal extending their lead at the top. Finally, can Hearts make history as the first non-Old Firm side to win the Scottish Premiership in 40 years? Former Hearts boss Gary Locke joins MNC.Timecodes: 00:25 Brendan Rodgers resigns as Celtic boss 07:07 Sunderland fan Frankie Francis joins the show 23:51 Are Bournemouth the new recruitment kings? 30:51 Set-pieces with Andy Parslow 44:46 Can Hearts go the distance? Gary Locke joins MNC 52:33 Are Arsenal finally going to win the Premier League?5 Live / BBC Sounds EFL Cup commentaries: Tue 1945 Grimsby Town v Brentford, Wed 1945 Liverpool v Crystal Palace.

This is the Monday Nightclub with Mark Chapman on the Football Daily podcast. Hello, welcome to the Monday Nightclub. Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Andros Townsend are with us. We'll discuss set pieces on this episode with Andy Parslow. We'll chat Arsenal and Bournemouth as well. And we'll talk about hearts after they've gone eight points clear in the Scottish Premiership. But we're going to start with just Chris and the news that broke around 10 o'clock.

clock on Monday night that Brendan Rogers resigned from his position as Celtic head coach and the club have put Martin O'Neill and Sean Maloney in as temporary managers. Just astonishing, Chris, really. It is astonishing, but I think there's a general feeling after Brendan Rogers said his piece before the season, didn't get the players. I said earlier on the Monday night club, he didn't get the players in which he would have liked. the desired quality. And this was rumbling on.

And then it had in press conferences, little sort of digs and pokes at the fact that he didn't get players in and digs, which seemed to be aimed at the board and his dissatisfaction. He wasn't given the team which he wanted and when you go back to last season and the relative Celtic

success Celtic had in the Champions League and what have you. He felt it was a, about progressing the club. That hasn't happened. And I've had a poor start to the season, out of the Champions League, and even domestically,

not as dominant as they should have been. Does it not give the impression that when the going gets tough, he does a runner? Well, I mean, that's, I mean, that's, I mean, if you, does it give that impression? I don't know, I'm asking you,

does it give that impression? I don't necessarily think so, because I think this is more on the club hierarchy and I think that he's lost quality players and they weren't replaced and he's dissatisfied about that. I think he would have felt let down by that. I think that that's the bottom line.

You know, Celtics should have been a club progressing this season and I think there's a sort of a feeling probably from Brendan Rogers that he wasn't backed. And when you think this is a guy who won 11 major trophies at Celtic as a manager and the club was in a really good place, they lost players, didn't replace them. And then it's, you know, it's been an unhappy club, you know, at the start of this season. And there has been this friction between Brendan Rogers and the club hierarchy, just simply based on that. And then, you know, last week, I mentioned on the Monday night club, you know, he described

his team after the defeat at Dundee as he compared them to a Honda Civic and what have you, that's not going to go down well in the dressing room. I think that was another dig at the board and then losing against hearts and maybe watching his team on a sort of weekly basis and realizing their miles off it

and that's the way Celtic have been this season and he's resigned which I said earlier had they lost at the weekend And, well, in the cup semi-final against Rangers, then, you know, I felt something may give at that stage. But, no, he's decided to go. And then was Martin O'Neill and Sean Maloney taking over, probably in the short term, you know, they've got a sort of stop gap.

And then? They couldn't go. They couldn't go back, could they? What to Martin O'Neal? No, no, no, no. Who's available? Oh, and you post to Coglu? Well, they could.

And I think that that that would be a popular appointment. I mean, you know, I mean, that's a sort of big assumption, but he's out of work. But no, they need to sort of get back on track this season. But whoever goes in, and there's Martin O'Neill and Sean Maloney in the shorter. He took him from Brendan last time around, didn't he? Did he? He did. I think, yeah.

And, you know, he was hugely successful. But it isn't straightforward this time because he's taking, whoever it is, is who's going to take over, is taking over a squad who are lacking quality. And that's the issue. January is going to be the interesting month in terms of, you know, where the Celtic are able to strengthen. But this squad at this moment in time just is, you know, doesn't have the strength, doesn't have the depths. And Celtic have got a lot of work to do short term. It's about, you know, winning games domestically and in Europe, big semi-final at the weekend. Who's that against? Well, that's against Rangers.

Mark. So, you know, it's a huge game. But it's not, it's not a total, total surprise, Brendan Rogers going. Something, something felt like it was, it was going to give. It has done. And now it'll be interesting to see how it pans out over the next couple of weeks and who the new permanent manager will be. But it wouldn't surprise me greatly if it was, if it was Angi Poster Coglu. Because he was, you know, really well respected, did a fantastic job last time round. And the football's been pretty trapped this season, so maybe a bit of angible back at Celtic will go down well. That's astonishing, isn't it?

Both Rangers and Celtic lose their managers within the first three months of the season. It is, I said, you know, Scottish football sort of never fails to deliver, really. Both teams have been poor this season. You know, both teams always start the season, you know, with great hopes and what have you. But they've both been miles off at Russell Martin

and getting the sack. And then Brendan Rogers stepping down. I don't think anybody would have seen this coming. You know, you go back to what February earlier this year in Celtic on the brink of sort of knocking by in Munich out of the Champions League. That didn't quite happen. They were in a great place a few months later. And, you know, it's come to this.

But, you know, there's always huge expectations on, you know, on both clubs and pressure. And it's all about winning. It hasn't happened for Brendan Rogers. at the start of this season and yeah and it's a bit of a sort of unhappy ending i mean you know he did say when he came back that he'd be here for three years after what happened last time round but i think the sort of friction element between himself and the board was maybe a little bit too much he felt he wasn't backed he felt he was you know probably had been let down and hence why he's gone okay well that broke too late for the monday night club now the rest of the pod is what we

on the Monday Night Club. We'll start with Sunderland who currently sit fourth in the Premier League. This is the first time, Rory, since 1992, that the top four at this stage of the season doesn't have one of or more of Manchester City, United, Liverpool or Chelsea

in the top four. Now, bearing in mind last year, we used to get very excited about how competitive the Premier League was before Liverpool then ran away with it and the same three teams went down who come up. Does this feel different? It does and it doesn't. So I do think there are echoes of last season

where you have one team at the top who seem blissfully unaware of the chaos kind of unfolding beneath them. But then I think there's five points between second and tenth, second and ninth, something like that. So there's a real kind of concertina effect. And I think, yeah, that happened last season.

Seems to be being repeated this season. I do wonder if that's the new reality of the Premier League. But there is the big difference, I think, is the newly promoted teams. That it, you know, at this stage, and we are still very early, you know, sort of a quarter of the season gone. It certainly won't be the case that the three newly promoted sides will kind of go down with a whimper, which didn't happen in the season that Andros was involved,

but it did happen the season that he was. I can't remember which way around that was. But Sunderland, Leeds, and Burnley have all kind of, they've learnt the lesson of Forrest and Villa. The way the Premier League works now is you come up, you spend all of that money, and you hope you can survive. And as thin standing, you know, stuff can change. I'd say it's pretty unlikely that all three of them will go down

and it may not be any of them. Bournemouth are 2nd with 18 and then Brentford or 11th with 13. So there's the five points between second. and 11th when you look at the bigger picture before we come on to Sunderland then Andros If you take If you take Arsenal out of it at the top

And at the moment on current evidence Wolves and West Ham out of it at the bottom Do you think anybody can beat anybody else From sort of second to 18? Yes and I think we've seen that now With like the lesser fancy teams Going to the top teams And finding a way to win games

setting up in a low block, having their wingers sort of ready for the countertack and catching the top teams on the countertack. I think Forrest last season, they utilised that perfectly with Hudson Adoy and I think there's a Lango on the other side. They did that very well. Teams have seen that and really taking that on board and thinking how we can implement that into our game. I think you're seeing already teams taking points off the Liverpools, off the Man Cities, for example, and they're really starting to learn from what Forrest built on last season. So do you think teams are being braver, Chris,

or are they just being better? I think better. Yeah, I don't know whether they're necessarily braver, but it's about balance, isn't it? That's where Sunderland have been, you know, really top draw in the way that they play. I don't think they're necessarily bothered about possession, but they certainly carry a threat when they do go forward.

So, you know, looking back at their... at their game at the weekend at Chelsea. You know, they had opportunities. They defend strongly, but they carry a threat and, you know, and load bodies forward. And I think that's the difference. I don't know whether they're braver. I think that the sides who have come up

seem to be, yeah, better organized, I think. I think that the average team in the Premier League, whatever that means, is better than it has ever been, just as it was last season. I think the standard across the board is higher. I'm not sure we've caught up with that. in terms of how we look at individual games and individual results.

So I think Arsenal go to Bournemouth around New Year's Day, that might be one of their hardest games of the season. But you would never kind of think, well, you know, if Arsenal dropped points at Bournemouth, it will be. The reaction will be, Arsenal, you know, big misstep, you know,

kind of made a mistake by dropping points at Bournemouth. But Bournemouth are, and have been for the last 18 months, one of the best teams in the country, and by extension, one of the best teams in Europe. So I think we maybe, don't always fully kind of realize how much it's changed. But yeah, like you go through the league. Brighton,

Brentford, Bournemouth, all these teams, some of the ones that don't start with B, they can beat absolutely everybody. They are, whether they're brave or not, I think they're all smarter, and they all have access to a higher standard of player every single season than has ever happened before. So

you are seeing this kind of great leveling out, I think, in the Premier League, and it's to Arsenal's enormous credit that they seem to be kind of hovering above it. I think Sondland, at the moment, they're getting the balance right. I think they're looking to press high, especially through Shaka and his experience. But as soon as, for example, Chelsea broke the first press, they're happy to sit back in a 5-4-1 and be tough to break down and be narrow and be compact.

Whereas I think back to a few years ago, where Luton, we were high press all the time. Burnley, under Vincent Company, were high-press all the time. And yes, we won some games, but we lost a hell of a lot of games as well because of it. whereas suddenly looked like they've just got the balance perfectly at the moment. So if you go back to that period, which is only a couple of years ago, Andross, was that, was actually that being braver back then with trying to win it back higher up rather than trusting your counter-attacking skills? I think it was braver, yes, but it was also very naive. For example, I remember the game, we were three-new-up, Bournemouth time away from home,

and we just continued to press high, and we ended up losing the game four or three. And so, yes, we were braver, but we lost a hell of a lot of points because of our braveness. Whereas Sunderland now, like I said, they just got the balance perfectly. They're brave, but they know when to just quit that press and get back into a low block. But the other thing on that, I think with respect, Andros, Sunderland have a better quality of player. They have recruited superbly. That's been where they, I mean, they, I mean, I can't think of too many promoted sides. who I know us early days

but you don't have the feel that the wheels are going to come off Sunderland I just don't feel that way but their recruitment has been sensational and the way that he's sort of you know got a team performing Regis Labrie and functional and as competitive

as they are I mean that's that's a testament to him to him and you know they've arguably got their best player out injured Diyara who's a sort of you know star guy he's out injured and when you think that he

could go to the bench at the weekend and Talby, you know, came off the bench and Brobie, he was, I think he was a signing on the last day of the window. They've got pretty good strength in depth. You always worry about the new teams coming up and, you know, think, well, will they be a bit light, you know, if they get a few injuries? And they've, you know, they've got a pretty okay bench as well. Well, the two, those two that they brought on were two of the three most expensive players that featured for Sunderland in that game.

at Chelsea Talby cost 18 million probably 17.4 The only player who cost more in that Sunderland side

was Enzo Le Fay who was 19.3 million everybody else is under 17.4 million which you know they've spent money

they've signed a lot of players but bizarrely Andros they haven't been extravagant no they haven't spent beyond their means I haven't bought Hollywood players.

There's been a plan to it. They've bought experience. I can't speak highly enough of Shaka as a player and what he brings to the game. And to get him from Champions League football in Germany is a massive coup. And then, like you said, they got good wide players ready for the countertack. They really have sat down and thought about the right strategy

to compete in the Premier League. And at the moment, 17 points. I think last season, Lester got 25. The season before, Luton got 26. So even if the wheels come off, like Chris said, they're still doing a hell of a better job than the last couple of promoted sides have done. Let's bring in a Sunderland fan on the Monday nightclub.

Frankie Francis, evening, Frankie. Good evening, everyone. I hope you well. Yeah, probably not as well as you are at the moment. I mean, I'm guessing you may have been expected to, or were expecting to be invited on various radio shows and podcasts come the end of October, but probably to talk about whether there was a chance of staying up, really, rather than where you are at?

Yeah, I mean, we're still on a high after that semi-final playoff game against Coventry and it's never, we just haven't stopped since then, you know. Of course, as Southern fans, we don't expect these results like the one at the weekend, but my goodness, are we enjoying it at the moment? And it's been a long time coming as well, Mark. When those players were coming in in the summer and you ended up with 15 new players in the end, were you excited were you sad about those who had got you up

who might not be featuring were you fearful in any way given that there have been teams in the past who spent a whole load on a whole load of players and then maybe not done as well as they've been hoping to do well I think we expected four or five maybe six well scouted recruitment because that's kind of been the model

over the last four or five years through Christian Speakman and now we have Florian Gisolfi as well at the club as well involved in recruitment and before that Stuart Harvey as well

and we have recruited well over those last few years what I was a little bit sad about was the players who got us through the divisions that were probably going to drop to the bench or have to find

football somewhere else because they really endeared themselves over the last few seasons to get us back to the Premier League and you know when you're dropping big personalities and like your captain and your goalkeeper

you're hoping that the players come in will step up and my goodness they all have every single signing so far has impressed you know and you're starting from the goalkeeper all the way through it's been it's been absolute your joy to watch but we're discovering about these players

every single week you know we still are finding out about players like Noah Siddiqui who just doesn't stop running and he's involved in every single game you know and The players that have kept their place in the 11, you know, Wilson Isidore and Dan Ballard taking a shirt when he can, you know, and Trey Hume, they've stepped up and it's been really good to see.

The gel is working so well at the moment. I know everybody else wants to come in here, but just on Sadiqi, one of the BBC Sport statisticians is a massive Sunderland fan. So whenever he sends a Sadiqi stat out, such as him and Granite Jacker have covered the most distance as individuals in the Premier League this season.

He sends that stat out whilst also saying that Siddiqui is an Golokante region, basically. Yeah, that's what people will compare him to. You know, he's got the same kind of physicality as him. He's got the same kind of engine as him. And, you know, I think he's learning so much on the job of Granite Jacker as well. And, you know, Chris mentioned,

mentioned it as well before, the other kind of big cog in that midfield hasn't been there because he's been injured. And that's Habib Diyah who's looked incredible when we've seen him earlier this season. Was there any concern, Frankie, when they were spending all that money that as to what would have happened had it gone wrong? Is there a kind of note of anxiety when you're in that situation? Do you kind of know you have to spend to stand any chance at all? But then you are, there is an element of rolling the dice. I think because we're in so frugal over the last few years we had faith in the recruitment

team and they proved themselves successful on so many occasions that we just kind of went with it and as fans we couldn't believe it you know I think there was people around the club but couldn't believe it you know the amount of local press just couldn't believe it another player coming in another player coming in but it's proven

to have to you know it's working a treat and you've referenced the clubs who's done it before and I do think they've looked at at those models and thought, well, if we're going to be in with a shot, we need another 11 and some depth and it's paying off. I was going to ask you, Frankie, about the goalkeeper Robin Rousse, because you know, you've got Jacqueren's the experience one and you brought a lot of young players in. But to me, that seemed really courageous to go for a goalkeeper up to the Premier League who is that young and throw them in because, you know, the natural thinking,

I would think, well, you need a bit of experience in goal, someone who's been there and done it before. That pretty sums up Sunderland's recruitment, though, doesn't it? You know, bringing someone like Robin Roofs in and having the faith in him. Yeah, absolutely, you know, and we've always given faith to players coming through the academy, and there is still a pathway.

Chris Riggs, evident of that right now in the 11 still. But yeah, you're right, Chris, it was scary to see, you know, your number one, Anthony Patterson, and having to sit on the bench and we didn't really know much about Robin roofs, but my goodness, the roof is on fire as the song goes on the terraces. Go on and Dros.

So we're nine games in at the moment. After the game against Chelsea, what's your first emotion? Oh my God, we're fourth or, wow, three points closer to that 40 point mark? Yeah, I mean, you would still be able to, you know, ask a Sunland fan now, and they'll still take fourth off bottom.

You know, they'll take your hand off for that. you know, but having said that, because of the start we've had, you know, and because we've got players to come back from injury, like Habib Diyah, and you've got players like Wilson Isidore, who seemingly stepped up effortlessly. You know, we've seen it before with other clubs. It would be amazing if we could achieve something incredible. Don't forget, you know, we did finish seventh twice under Peter Reed in the, in the Premier League, you know, years ago.

But, you know, we're a big club. It's just nice to be back in the top division playing, you know, my little boys, nine now, and he's going to get to see plays like Harland and, you know, and all the Liverpool stars and stuff like that and play, you know, stuff I was excited about when I was his age, you know, being back in the top flight. That's what's all about going with you, go to the match with your family and friends and enjoying it. And suddenly, the city itself's on a bit of a, having a bit of a, you know, kind of overhaul at the moment. The city centre is having this huge overhaul and kind of redevelopment. We've got this new

footbridge, which is a bit like Wembley Way, which now takes you across the river we are into, from the city centre to the stadium. There's something in the air, you know, and I think when Granite Jack has signed, I went to an evening with him and he said he could smell something at Sunderland. And he said he's only ever had that twice in his career and that was at Levecousin and then obviously

when he had some great times at Arsenal as well. So, you know, it's something happening, but I don't know what, but it's good. So when you had that evening with him then, what, as well as obviously just getting that feeling that this was the right place to be, What else sold it to him? He said that Kirill Larry Dreyf has phoned him several times from a Swiss number.

And on the seventh time or something, he answered and he said within 15 minutes his decision was made. Wow. So the owner phoned him, yeah. And within 50 minutes, that got him out of a Bundesliga club in the Champions League to a promoted team. Yeah, he said the challenge was too good to turn down. From that moment, he knew that, you know, he was obviously probably offered the captain's arm band, you know, and then the team was going to be built around him. And, you know, you feel for players like Dan Neal because he was the captain who, you know, was captain just at Wembley,

and he played his first game for us in League One. But, you know, Dan will be learning so much as well of Guana Jaco on the trading field every single day. And I still can't believe he signed for us, to be honest, it's mad. Frankie, thank you very much for coming on. Frankie Francis, Sunderland fan with us. Let's move on to Bournemouth. We've had Ryan Christie on Five Live recently. Andoni Araola has been the subject to the football interview recently.

Have Bournemouth gone past Brighton as being the kings of recruitment? Chris? Oh, have they gone past Brighton? It's incredible to think that the players, that they lost last season, that they have replaced them as well as they have done and still had the start. So, you know,

I think we need to judge over a longer period. Brighton have been extremely special. But the pressure on the manager to gel everything and for them to be, you know, second they lost, Hoyson, Kerkers has had a bit of a stinker at Liverpool so far, hasn't he? And Zubarnia, you know,

three rocks for them at the back. and what they've got Diyah Kite in and Truffer and the other guy's name is so long I can't mention him Miller Yaseyovic is that right from Redstaffed Rory is that you've got that right you probably don't know do you

Miller Lovoyovitch but I'm not really well yeah well that was that was close other than the last bit of his surname but they've sort of yeah the middle the middle bit was a bit awry as well but the middle the millo bit works well done it was all right yeah

Yeah, but then, you know, they're just brilliantly coached they are. And Crupy, I've got to say, I wasn't aware of Crupy until a couple of games into the season in recent weeks. And all of a sudden, this guy's come in, is banging goals. And so you mentioned Rukubin, where do they find these guys? I mean, it's pretty incredible, and we know they are a selling club. And it's interesting, I think, you know, the talk with Iriola is in his last year. of his contract, they want to hang on to him, Bournemouth too, but his stock

is growing so much now, it's going to be really difficult to hang on to him because with respect, he will be ambitious and when bigger opportunities come along, he'll have to think when is the right time to move. Do you know what I would find fascinating

in a discussion with Bournemouth's recruitment people, Andros, is what they looked at, what the metrics were that they looked at, for Crupy because if you look at if you just look at his stats at Lurion for example which I've just pulled up five goals in 11 starts

20 sub-appearances between April 23 and February of 25 so he's and he's only 19 so it's not a sensational goal return and he's already got four for Bournemouth this season so it'd be really

interesting to know what what the metrics were that they looked at, what they saw with their own eyes, and maybe even Iroola's inputs go, do you know what? Yeah. There is someone that we can do something with. It'd be fascinated to find out how it all mesh together. Yeah, I think nowadays it's all about, like, profiles. Can we get, for example, they had Salanki, when they're replacing Selanky, okay, he's big,

he's strong, he's quick. Can we replace that profile, even if they're not prolific, even if they're not getting the numbers and what have you, it's about getting that profile? When you've got a manager like Iriola, who has a clear style of play, you know what he wants and what he needs. So it's sort of easy to replace players when they go because you just replace them like for like with the same profile of players. So I think they've done very well recruitment-wise. But like Chris said, their biggest signing was keeping Iriola because everything sort of is down to him and his style of play in the way he likes to attack games and play on the counter-attack with his two wide players. So, yeah, I think their biggest success this season is keeping Iriola.

With Crupy, it probably doesn't hurt that they could have called up L'Rean and said, can you tell us everything about him because they have the same owner? That would have been a massive help. As much as they will look at data and they will examine all the stuff sort of far deeper than goal return and assists and, you know, the kind of surface level stuff, there will have been a data justification for it. A lot of scouting is still, as you say, Chapters, its eyes, but it's also like the due diligence on character.

and all of that is often where I think deals fall apart because you're still relying that on, A, people kind of telling you the truth and B, get into the right people who can kind of answer the questions in the right way. Whereas with Lurion, Bournemouth will have been like, well, we know everything about this guy anyway. We've seen, it's not that we've seen him in games, we've seen him in training. We know what he can do. And that makes it a more sure fight. I spoke to Bill Foley, the owner, last week, who is, who sits in,

recruitment meetings, not just for Bournemouth, but for Lorya, for Moray-Rens, the Portuguese team they own for Hibs, who they have a 25% stake of. He's kind of really across it, which I think is fascinating from an ownership point. There's not many owners who sit in in the Premier League who sit in on recruitment meetings.

That's not normal. Does he just listen? No, well, I think he's very much a listener. He describes himself as a micro-macro-manager or a macro-micro-manager. So he'll be a micromanager when he feels that people aren't doing it right. And other than that, he's a macro manager.

But no, he obviously regards football as a, as quite an interesting intellectual challenge. You know, he's made his money and he now invests in stuff. His list of investments sound very much, and I mean, this is a huge compliment, sound like a man having fun. You know, he's running football teams, hockey teams,

loads of vineyards in New Zealand. This is a guy who's made money and is like, right, I want to do stuff I enjoy now. But I think he, his big thing is that they want to be able to pay themselves. That's why they've got all these investments in clubs, because they want to create this transfer network where they can kind of, I guess, troll for players more broadly, get them into the system, and then when they buy them, you are keeping the money in your group, and that's the logic of it. But the ancillary benefit is that you know far more

about the players. You're in a much better position to say, you know, this 19-year-old French kid is ready to move to England. That is the point at which it's still a risk. Welcome to the team behind the team, a new podcast series in partnership with the Open University, where we'll be showcasing the people, the tools and the techniques to help athletes and teams reach elite level. Like all elite sports, it's a pyramid and everybody's trying to get to the top. It's not just my vision.

It's a shared vision amongst the team. What is this? This is not the way I see the game. The team behind the team with Katie Smith In partnership with the Open University Listen on BBC Sounds This is the Monday Night Club With Mark Chapman

On the Football Daily podcast Let's talk set pieces Andy Parslow joins us Setpiece coach We're with Swansea and Sheffield Wednesday Amongst others After a weekend where Set pieces have been flying in

Here there and everywhere I think I gave the stat yesterday and I wish I could remember it but I'll roughly say it and hopefully this is correct 19% of all Premier League goals have come from corners so far this season which is a record

does that sound about right Andy you're nodding so I'll come to you for reassurance It sounds about right the general stat is usually a third a third of goal scored in total come from set pieces so for 19% of them to be just corners is pretty high as well. When did you start using the title set piece coach?

Were you always a coach and then became a set piece coach? Because in all of this discussion, what I'm trying to understand at the moment, is why set pieces ever supposedly went out of fashion as opposed to why they are back in fashion? Yeah, to answer the start of your question, my personal journey was coaching generally, a licensed coach

and academy football normal things developed a bit of a reputation at AFC Wimbledon where I was coaching at the time for set pieces and for tactical understanding and Mark Robinson

who got the first team manager's job in 2021 asked me to come and do it for the first team so I did it went pretty well so we carried on doing it and from there went on to my other clubs from there

so yeah my own personal one was it was never a plan to follow that route but it's something that happened and something that I've thrived on so far and that I enjoy. In terms of the fashion, I don't know it ever went necessarily out of fashion, but I think football became a bit more interested and boardline obsessed with other sides of the game, goal kicks being one, playing out from the back, etc.

I think set pieces have always been a very important part of the game. But now with the rise of set piece coaches and certainly more goals being scored and more attention being cast on them, it seems like they're very much more prominent. as someone who has delivered set pieces andros how has your time on set pieces grown over the years has it stayed the same i mean one of the things that strikes me at the moment with set pieces and i certainly thought this yesterday when i was evident for eviton spurses the deliveries at the moment are absolutely for why you what's wrong chris we go carry on but the deliveries are at the moment the way the way a lot of set pieces have been delivered are phenomenal.

Whereas as we all know, the consistency. In the 1990s, in early 2000s, people just sort of tow-poat the ball forward and let it fall from the sky. Anyhow, Andrew. I mean, you're insulting to Andros there, who had great delivery. That's the way I've taken that. Well, that's the way you've taken. It wasn't meant that way at all, Andros, as you know. Was there a question there for me to answer?

Yeah, how much? Yeah. Somewhere back in there there, there was, which was, did, over the course of your career, have you spent more time on set pieces? I think when I first came through around 2010, your Friday before a Saturday game, it was you spend 10, 15, 20 minutes on set pieces.

Then around 2015, Potetino sort of Spurs era, your Friday set pieces turned into your Friday, you're how to build up from the back and how to press from goal kicks. So you lost that sort of half an hour that you normally did set pieces and it's now how you build up from the back and how you press when the other teams build up.

And then I'd say in the last three or four years, the set pieces has come back into fashion again, whereas you're still doing the build-up phase and the pressing phase, but also you're spending time on the set pieces. So I think, like Sean Dice said in his interview the other day, it sort of goes through stages on what clubs like to prioritize

and what they don't like to prioritize. Andy, I don't want to offend Chris. But as a fan, I would say that set pieces now look like they are much more complicated than they were when Chris was playing. And I was watching football as a small child. But the... Well, explain that then, Rory.

Well, Chris, maybe I'm completely wrong. So explain how the long throw. I mean, if Tony Puleas was Spanish, then, you know, Tony Puehler. was, you know, is regarded as a bit of a dinosaur in some quarters. Michael Artetta does it. Nice Spanish name and what have you. And he's a genius.

I mean, yet Tony Puleas was doing it years before Michael Artetta. So, you know, I mean, how is a long throw? How is a long throw different from when Tony Pulez does it to the long throw, for example, which Sunderland scored? The main difference now is that the players taking the long throws cost 17. million pounds. That's the main difference than they are being employed to take long throws. The throw itself, not different at all.

It strikes me, maybe not from long throws. I think they're still being used basically for the chaos element, that it's really hard to defend them. But from corners and free kicks, it looks to me like there are set and quite kind of heavily layered blocking patterns that as far as I know didn't exist in the 1990s, but maybe

I'm wrong. And if I'm wrong, Chris, I apologize profusely. I disagree with that. I think I agree with the part that Andross said about how much work is done on set pieces now.

There may be more work done on that. But I mean, Manchester United won a Champions League final off set plays. You know, I mean,

you go back to Wimbledon back even before I started playing. They won an FAA Cup final of a set play. They were renowned for, you know, big strong team. Hang on, hang on,

hang on. So if we're looking at the kind of work that goes into it. Andy, if you were, when you were at AFC Wimbledon, we're now on a Monday, okay, you've played over the weekend, how does your week pan out in getting, let's say they don't have a midweek game, let's say they're playing on Saturday again, how does your week pan out in preparing your team's set pieces? Because it's obviously very different, as Andros has said. Yeah, of course. So on a Monday, we would look to review

the previous weekend. It's not necessarily something we would do religiously every single game because certainly in the Football League there's a lot of games to play so to do reviews all the time. It could be a bit much but if there's review to do them we'll do that, look at what we could have done better and what we've done well. And then the work will

begin for the next game. So earlier in the week I would do as much work in the shadows as I can. Players don't like really to be bombarded with set pieces all throughout the week. So you try and make sure that when you do interact with them, it's going to have the maximum impact. So I would do my preparation on the next opponent, what their strengths are, what their

weaknesses are, how we can hurt them, what we need to do to stop them. Then as we get towards the end of the week, we'll start to layer the work in on the grass. So it might be taking some individuals, whether it's a taker and some key first contact players to work on the sort of movement, the sort of delivery type we want for the weekend. And then on the Friday, we've come together for your normal set piece session where you go against opposition and you try things out in real time. What are the first contact players, sorry? So they'd be, classically speaking, you're John Seri's, your Virgil Van Dykes, Tony Adams, that will go and win the first ball.

Okay, Chris. Andy, do you work as much on defending set pieces as attacking set pieces? What is the split there? I've got so many questions I'd love to ask you, but that's my first one. For me, it's always dependent on who your next opponent's going to be and how much of a threat they pose. So, for example, I use the championship if you're playing Millwall that weekend, you spend a fair bit of your time preparing your defender's set place because that's probably how they're going to hurt you.

Now, the way that I like to work personally is you don't change your defensive structures too much because building partnerships and building familiarity is a really important part of defending, having that clarity. The attacking can be a little bit more flexible, so you can allow a bit more freedom. So there's maybe less rigidity on that. But if you're playing against the team where you think we can really hurt them from the attacking side, then it might be for that week you'd do a little bit more on the attacking as well.

You'd always do both, but it's not necessarily it's going to be 15 minutes on this and 20 minutes on that. It will vary depending on the strength of weakness as your opponent. Is that in any way an issue that you wouldn't concentrate?

Is that why so many are being scored at the moment because people tend to be focusing on how to attack set pieces rather than defend them? You stick to one structure you're saying when defending? Generally speaking,

you'll stick to one structure. I think a weakness defensively that is a bit of a trend is a failure to adjust to threats when you see them happening. So I use an example a few weeks ago when Spurs played away at West Ham and second half. I think it was Saar scored aheader at the back post and there were four guys unmarked beyond the last West Ham zone. And I think it was the third time they'd done it in that game and there was no adjustment. It caused problems and then eventually the goal goes in and you just think you've got four players defending by the near post. The ball's not gone there once. you could maybe lose one of those

to go and deal with one of the men and by the way it's going to be one of the men that's going to score not the space at the near post so you have to try and deal with those players as well the failure to adjust I think is a bit of an issue Would you want your players to take that responsibility

themselves and notice that or is that the role of the set piece coach who more and more appears to be standing in the technical area when a set piece is about to be taken It's a dual responsibility I think for me the work has to be done in a advance where you say to the players, this is our structure, but by the way, this is something

they look to do quite often. If they do this, this is how we respond. Because I've stood on the edge of technical areas in the Emirates stadium, stadium alike, to try and get your voice across to the far side penalty box with 60,000 people talking. It's quite difficult to get your message clear. So you do need the players to take some responsibility, but in my opinion, the work is done beforehand anyway? Andy, how much of your preparation is you looking at other team set pieces and look what they do well and how much is you sort of coming up with your own ideas and seeing what would work inventing sort of set piece routines? It would be a bit of a mixture. So you've always got to try and take ideas. I think all the best

coaches in general play take ideas from other coaches anyway. So you'll always look to to draw and experiences. But I think a common mistake is to try and copy and place what someone does and bring it to your team when you might have completely different player profiles. So to replicate Arsenal, you need players that could put a ball in like Sacker and Rice. You need five, six players that are above six foot, and you need to be getting eight, nine, ten corners per game to be able to replicate what they're doing. Not everyone's going to have that level of resources, that luxury, so you have to try and find other ways. You need to find solutions for the players and the profiles that you've got in your team. So yes, you'll take

from other teams, but I will always start with looking at what we've got, what are our strengths, and how can we hurt teams. Andros, when you used to take the corners, how many different signals did you have for a corner? One arm, two arm, two arm, bounce the ball. Yeah, one arm near post, two arms, back post, bounce the ball, short or some sort of smart sort of corner kick. So yeah, probably three max. What codes would you implore? I mean, I don't expect you to tell me them because obviously you're going to be working, Andy.

But I think Brentford used colours, don't they, I think? But I have done in the past. I've used a few different ones. We use colours during the behind closed doors season because the players could hear the player taking the corner, shout out of colour. I've used a player on the edge of the box before to give the signals because the type of routine we would do would depend on how the zonal players were positioned and the player with the best view was the one on the edge of the box

rather than the corner taker who's looking through a load of body. So he would signal the players in the box would be looking for his signal, all the taker would see it, and then we go and deliver from there. So there's a few different ways. I've seen other teams touching the corner flag at the top on the pole. I've seen players on the edge playing with their shorts. There's loads of different subtle things that happen to try and, yeah, not show your hands. Chris, can you honestly tell me that that was happening while you were playing?

That is so ridiculous. Is that a level of complacency? Do you not think we could signal to each other? Do you not think that we knew how to block players? I mean, I'm not going to, Alan Thompson had one of the best, I mean, brilliant delivery, like Andrew, unbelievable delivery. John Hartson, Henrik Larson, you know, Larson's leap was phenomenal. You put the ball into an area, you get a block, it's, you know, Arsenal do, everyone raves about it. But teams were doing it long before.

They mentioned Manchester United, you know, 1999 winning the Champions League with set plays. You know, I'm not saying, you know, there aren't a. place for set peace coaches. Of course there is in the detail, the devil's in the detail, important long throws. We've talked about it before, but that is so disrespectful. Great to have you on, Andy. Thank you very much for joining

us, Andy Paislo, set peace coach. Jamie Redd was telling the story yesterday, that before he was at Stoke, Rory Delat was at Southampton and they never knew he had a long throw, and they had Peter Crouch in the team at the time. It was amazing. Went to Stoke.

Why don't you tell us you could You could try it like that when you were here Let's talk hearts Eight points clear at the top of the Scottish Premiership They beat Celtic 3-1 on Sunday Both Chris and Rory were there And the former Hearts coach Gary Locke Who played for Hearts as well 153 times

joins us now evening Gary Evening how you doing boys is okay Very good thank you Should anybody connected with hearts Be getting carried away Should they allow themselves to be getting carried away? No, I think Derek the managers already said that, you know, it's very early in the season.

We've still got 29 games to go, so it's a long, long way to go. But we're pleased with how we've started the season. You know, we're playing really well, beat everybody that we've played against, apart from Motherwell, so it's been a fantastic start of the season. He said, didn't he, he'd have a better idea once they've got... Did he say, was they've gone around two rounds of fixtures, I think?

Yeah, that's what you say yesterday, you know, once we've been through two rounds of fixtures, played everybody home and away, I think you'll have a better idea if we're going to maintain the challenge. But were the team to be at the moment, which is nice? You know, we didn't they do so well last season, so it's really pleasing for everybody. What's different? What's different about this group? I think the recruitment has been massive for us in the summer. We've been very fortunate that Tony Bloom's obviously invested in the club, and we've now got the access

to the Jamestown Analytics so we've brought in some absolutely fantastic players especially probably Kizurides and Brager being the main two and I think the lads that were with us last year like Shankland and that have had a huge lift for these players coming in

and everybody's playing with a lot of confidence at the moment it was the scenes post-match yesterday were amazing really and Tony Bloom was being fated like some kind of Messiah. And I can completely understand that. But what's interesting in it, Gary, is he's put 10 million quid in, I think, hasn't he? So he's an investor.

He's not the owner. He's not the chair. He's not the president. He's an investor who's allowed the access to the analytics company. And that's the key. And yet he is being fated in the way that he is. yeah I mean he's been brilliant for the club as has James Anderson I think he deserves a special mention as well you know he's a non-executive director who's invested heavily in the club but I think the fans are getting excited by the fact that we're now getting access to these players who are probably unheard of quite a lot of them but we've managed to bring them into the Scottish game and the majority of the signings that we've made have been absolutely fantastic and they've really lifted the whole level of the playing squad.

It's always going to be difficult for us to challenge Rangers and Celtic, especially financially. So if we can get these diamonds for different countries, I think that's probably the best way to challenge them on the park. Yeah, I think if I'm not mistaken, Tony Bloom was the mastermind behind the Brighton stuff, right? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, giving him access to his sort of data is, like, they were the first ones doing

that sort of analytical stuff. They were the first ones looking at profiles and what have you, and massive success at Brighton, So for Harts to be utilising that sort of data now, gives them a massive boost, especially in Scotland. I was finding, I would love Rory to have a deep delve into James Town analytics to find out what they do that is the gold standard. That's actually quite hard to do. Yeah, they're not going to tell you.

No, they're not going to come on national radio. They're not going to come on national radio and just reveal all their secrets. So here's the album. No, so I think the Times actually, did a brilliant, I can't remember who it was, who did it for the times, but they did a brilliant piece on James Towns. I've never heard them speak. I've never seen, seen them give any on the record quotes at all. And the Times did a piece on them around the time that they signed the deal with Hearts, because that predated Bloom's investment. So Jamestown

went in first. I think late last year they signed that deal. And then the Bloom investment came through this summer. And James Town won't say anything. It's all proprietary. That is their secret source. You might as well ask Colonel Sanders. How to make chicken chappas. But they are the best at it. Whatever it is that they do, whatever algorithms they run, however they weight the data.

So I think one of the things that they do is they collect their own data, so they think it's cleaner than everybody else is. But the key thing will be how they wait it and how they kind of, what they look for, how they kind of understand what those numbers say. Their record is, if you speak to anyone, I mean, we had Danny on last week, didn't we, Danny Welbeck, who was talking about cow rheumatoma going in at Brighton.

They had not heard of him. He was a Japanese winner. Very few players in that squad would have been watching Japanese football and they immediately saw that Mitoma was world-class. Obviously in Scotland you can shop in different markets

because the leap isn't quite as high as it is to the Premier League. But what James Towner Brilliant at is understanding that there is talent in unusual and unexpected places. So yeah, Kizzeridis had ended up at not even one of the bigger clubs in Slovakia, a relatively minor club in Slovakia.

Braga, I think, had gone to Norway originally in the third division and then being transferred to Arlesund in the second and Hart's got in I think before a major Norwegian team came and got him and I think the one thing being at Tyne Castle yesterday it did feel as though you've got this sort of golden moment

where hearts have got this sort of first flush of belief because of Tony Bloom's involvement there's a storyline building there and Celtic and Rangers are doing their best to help them which is both a, I mean Martin O'Neill called Rangers a basket case the other day Celtic themselves are struggling and under pressure

I think what hearts are doing is sustainable because Tony Bloom has got a proven track record that he can do it again and again and again and as Gary says there's a massive financial difference but by and he's got January he's got January where he can go again they have no European football

hearts no FFP out of the league cup it's an unbelievable situation for all the reasons which you've said, but also, and Gary's mentioned him, the manager, Derek McKinness, you know, knows Scottish football inside out, you know, and he is so important for Harts as well

in terms of how to set up against different teams that, you know, they can be flexible. So you put everything into the mix and what's happening, and it does feel that Harts have an unbelievable chance this season. He was head coach of Aberdeen when they finish runners-up four consecutive times. The key it feels at the moment, Gary, is the attention builds and the expectation builds, I suppose,

and that's the unmeasurable. Yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on, but I think it's really refreshing for our game up here as well because, obviously, over the years, you're just kind of looking at a two-horse race most of the time with Celtic and Rangers. On the odd occasion, you know, we've done reasonably well, but it's great as a hearts man that we're up there

top of the league and flying but I think for our game in general I think it's great for everyone else that there's a wee bit interest now in Scottish football because we've got a different team at the top of the league good to see you Gary thank you for coming on Cheers boys thank you

Gary Locke former hearts had coach 153 appearances for the club Let's move it on to Arsenal, who are Andros, the team who have covered more ground than any other team in the Premier League so far this season. Now, some people don't like to use distances because the amount of distance covered can mean that you're out of position, I suppose, as well. But it shows how hard they're working. They're top of the league overall, but they also top of the league for clean sheets, goals conceded, shots face, shots on. target faced and expected goals against.

And Mikhail Artetti used the phrase after yesterday's won and win over Crystal Palace that they suffer, i.e. they go, they will do anything to protect their goal. Therefore, they are more than just a set-piece team by a mile, aren't they? Well, 100%. It pains me to say as a former Spurs player, but they seem to have everything at the minute. as expansive as Liverpool as a Man City. They get seven players on the front line. But when they lose it, they're completely different to Liverpool Man City. All of their players sprint back. They've got four or five, six defensive-minded players in the team. So yes, California can play

in the left 10 position, for example, can play wide left. But when they lose the ball, his first fault is, right, I've got to get back. And they get back so much quicker than a Liverpool and in Manciti. And that's where the stats you brought up, it puts it into context because you can see with the recovery runs, they commit men forward, but they rarely ever get counter-attack. They rarely, like you said, have shots against them. So that's a testament to the team Artetta's produced. Do you think they also, bear in mind several of the subjects we've discussed tonight, Andros, have greater physicality than those other two teams that you mentioned? Yes, they do. They have that security at the back. They've got four centre-h halves at the back.

Reis 5's defenders in the team. So they do carry that physical threat both in possession and out of possession. And it is people talk about, oh, they look at their level and say, oh, Arteta, he's anti-football. We just play seven, eight defenders and Arsenal boring to watch. But they're not boring to watch because if you watch them, Califuri doesn't play left back. These guys do play in offensive positions. And people talk about how anti-football Arteta is and how he's ruining football. and it's one-neill to the Arsenal,

but he does commit men forward when they have the ball. It's just when they lose the ball, they're different to a Liverpool, the Mancite. They do have their recovery runs because their players are defensive-minded. But, yeah, to win the Premier League, Arsenal have, they can't do the same thing that Manciti do because Mancita will always be the best.

They have to find something different. That's why Ateta's finding the set pieces. He's finding these solutions defensively to not get counter-attacked and shots against them. And so far, hasn't found that formally but maybe

this season is the season that they do get over the line. Christopher? I think Arsenal

will win the Premier League and win it comfortably. I agree with everything Andros

says. The distance covered thing I think is fascinating because I think we've spoken in the

past on here about teams who cover the distance and who will be knacked after Christmas. So, you know,

I don't really want to read too much into that. But they're strength in depth. They can

they will beat teams anyhow. And when you look at the drop-off of, you know, of Liverpool this season, Manchester City seem a little bit fragile and just, I don't know, just say too reliant on Erling Harland, but that does seem to be a little bit of the case. I think, you know,

Yocchrej will eventually fire for Arsenal. And, you know, and he'll be a good signing. It hasn't quite happened for him. But just what they've got coming off the bench. And, you know, they'll have Madiweke Bank. from injury, you know, O'Degard hasn't sort of hit his straps. And when you, you know, when you think about their strength in depth, that ability, they have class in terms of Eza and Saka.

And if it doesn't work on that sort of front, you know, for one week, then they'll just knock a set piece in. And when that way, they don't concede goals, Arsenal. And that's, you know, that's the biggest thing. They're going to score. They'll find a way to score and they'll keep a clean sheet and that's why they'll win the league.

The other thing, Rory, they've already in, what are we, nine, is it nine games? Nine in, yeah. What's the league table? Nine games in, they've been to Anfield,

they've been to Old Trafford, they've been to St. James's Park. They've had city at home. City at home as well. So, you know, they've had big games in their first nine. Yeah, they had a difficult start in terms of the away trips.

I think the home, games were probably a little bit kinder, but yeah, they've knocked off quite a few of the games that I suppose you would look at as a fan at the start of the season and think those are the most challenging, likely to be the most challenging. As I said earlier, sometimes those lists need to be updated. I don't think Bournemouth away is, don't have been much fun for anybody, but no, they've got Chelsea and Spurs, I think, before the end of November, and then that will be all of the traditional kind of big, difficult games out of the way for the first half of the season. I agree completely with Chris. I think they will win the lead and I think

that we'll win it well. I think they're the most modern team, the most modern squad in the sense that they've learnt from Chelsea, I think that you need... Sorry, when you say win it well, you mean we're not going to have a title race? I think, yeah, it looks a little bit. As I say, I think we are experiencing last season again,

except that Arsenal and Liverpool have swapped places, basically. That Liverpool... Oh, hang on, it's more complicated than that. Liverpool are Manciti, Arsenal of Liverpool, and I don't know who Man City are. But I think Arsenal are above the fray that's happening beneath them, and all the others will keep taking points off each other.

So they will open up a gap. City may well be able to reel them back in at some point to kind of make a fist of it, but I think Arsenal should win it. And they will win it because they are the team that best defines the modern Premier League. They have incredible depth, they're physical, they're strong,

they're technically brilliant, but they have that kind of array of threats. They don't can see goals, and they're great from set pieces. They have kind of led that counter-revolution or whatever. the one thing, if you wanted to... Why did you have to say modern there, though? Because that's, you know, that's been a hallmark of all teams in the Premier League,

hasn't it? And pre-Premure League, you didn't have to say modern. I would say, Chris, it's modern in that sense, because when Gwadiola's city were in their kind of imperial phase, best practice was to have a first-team squad of 20 players. It was the small squad. You wanted a small squad so that you could really get your message into them. Whereas I think Chelsea and Arsenal have worked out,

because of the number of games you play now, you need to have more than that. So, yeah, Arsle's depth is absurd. You know, as Andrews says, the players they have coming off the bench is, there is no weakness there at all. And I think that's new. I think that's a new development.

I think squads have got bigger. They're talking about having six substitutes because squads are so big, because they're so conscious of fatigue. So they are a modern team. The one little thing that if you want to... Who's talking about having six substitutes? There have been discussions about having six substitutes.

Oh, come on. Really? The one little thing you could maybe kind of attach yourself to if you wanted to hope that there might be a title race. Arsenal is 17th for goals from open play. I think even Michel Artetta would suggest he'd like that to be a little bit higher. And if there was a drop-off with the set pieces last season, second half of the season they didn't score as many,

and Artetta, his view, was you need to design new set pieces, which they've done, they're working really well at the moment. You need to kind of be creating a bit more from open play, I think, to be absolutely certain. But yeah, I don't see a challenger to Arsenal. Right, thanks to Chris, Andross and Rory. That's it for this episode of the Monday Night Club on the Football Daily. Thanks for listening.

He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. There it is. It's a day to remember the Wayne Rooney. And now he's got a podcast. Welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show. Twice a week, Wayne Rooney, Kay Kerrude and me, Kelly Summers, break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond. As much as you'd like to say it, loyalty in football now is there's no existence, whether that's fun players or managers. Plus, we'll hear the funniest, wildest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career.

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