Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Slot's success, Wrexham on the rise & Arsenal reach a final

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Mark Chapman is joined by Steph Houghton, Chris Sutton and The Observer's Rory Smith for the latest episode of the Monday Night Club.The team discuss Liverpool's 20th title victory, with Stephen Warnock joining the pod to reflect on the season. Celtic also won a title on the weekend, so former striker Chris Sutton weighs in on their season and on the future of Brendan Rodgers. Is the landscape of Welsh football changing, with Cardiff's relegation and Wrexham's promotion? And Steph reflects on Arsenal women's sensational win against Lyon to progress to the Champions League final.Timecodes: 00:41 Liverpool win their 20th league title 10:30 Have Liverpool 'underwhelmed'? Were Arsenal outdone by injuries? 13:51 Arne Slot speaks about Jurgen Klopp, plus how the club transitioned between managers 22:27 Ryan Gravenberch's season as a 6 29:42 Celtic win their 55th league title, and what next for Rodgers? 39:05 Cardiff's relegation and Wrexham's promotion 50:53 Arsenal women's shock win over LyonBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week: Tue 2000 Arsenal v PSG in the UEFA Champions League, Wed 2015 Man Utd v Chelsea in the Women’s Super League, Thu 2000 Athletic Club v Man Utd in the UEFA Europa League, Thu 2000 Tottenham v Bodø/Glimt in the UEFA Europa League.

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tuning into the Inside Track wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts It's the Monday night club Steph Horton Chris Sutton and Rory Smith are here Stephen Warnock can't get enough about Chessy Liverpool winning the title so he sneaked in for the first Are we going are we going to do the whole Liverpool title in five minutes Rory? Is that how we're going to do it? I was going to ask you how you're doing Chappers, that was my opening, are you alright? Yeah I've spent a lot of the weekend watching snooker. So it's been a very good world championship, obviously we're going to start with Liverpool's second title in the Premier League era the first under Arna Slot in his debut season in charge. They've announced today that the bus parade will take place on Monday,

the 26th of May. I will throw a whole load of stats out in just a moment, but I'm going to start with you Rory because you were there yesterday, Stephen was there as well. So many of the stats indicate such dominance, which I know is what you come to expect when a side wins the league title. But some of them are extraordinary in any season, let alone just for this season. I think two things have been a bit confused over the last few weeks. One is this idea that Liverpool have been underwhelming champions and the other is the fact that it's been an underwhelming Premier League season.

I think you can make the second case and it has nothing to do with the first. Relegation has been a bit boring, Tottenham and Manchester United in particular have really underperformed, maybe Chelsea to an extent as well. It feels like it has lacked a bit of drama, there hasn't really been a title race since February despite some of us remaining slightly worried about ginseng things. But Liverpool, as you say, if you look at the stats, if you look at the kind of, I guess,

the tale of the tape of the season almost, Liverpool have been top since November. I think they actually went top in September, but they've been top since November. Their lead, do you remember the bit of the season where they wobbled? Their lead over Arsenal almost doubled at that point. They haven't really looked like slowing up and I know that there have been games where

they haven't played especially well, but I don't know whether we're maybe holding them to an unrealistic standard because they have had their sort of hands on the throat of the Premier League for months. And I suppose, Steph, and you have been, you know, you have won things and you have been in title races. This is the whole point, one of the reasons why there hasn't been a title race as such is because Liverpool have been so dominant. I think that's the most important thing is that from an attacking point of view and also a defending point of view they have outshone absolutely everybody in this league I think, Arsenal second in the league but in terms of where they stand today it's a totally different situation. I think for me Liverpool from that first

moment and even in that summer where they didn't really go and spend money, Slot came in took over a lot of Klopp's players and I think a lot of Liverpool fans are thinking, oh we don't know where this is going to go, but I think he's found that right balance between his team. He's allowed experience to kind of take control of the culture, but also when you win things everything has to be spot on and you have to have that little bit of luck as well. And if you look at Liverpool's key players in the sense of Van Dijk, Salah, they've been able to stay fit for the whole of the season and I think that makes a difference when you're going for league titles. And that also, actually Stephen, just on that point about their fitness, they've had some of the fewest injuries in the Premier League out of all the clubs. As I often say when we talk about

injuries, that is not just down to luck. Luck can play a part in injuries, but there are other reasons as well. Yeah, you've got to adapt the training. I think when you think of Jürgen Klopp's team and how they used to play, you have to train like that as well. So when you look at the way on a slots team play now, you've got to adapt the training and make sure that they're ready to be fitter and stronger for the back end of the season and make sure that they don't train with that same intensity The other thing that you also get with that is you get mental burnout?

Because you're going in every day knowing that you're gonna have to train in that way Now when you talk about injuries the one thing that a lot of people keep on forgetting is They missed Allison for a large chunk of the season and had Kaveem Kelleher come in But he performed to a very high standard that a lot of people forgot about it. They missed then Canarte, they missed Diogo Jota for a long period of time. Trent Alexander-Arnold spent a lot of time out.

So they have had injuries as well, but they've been able to manage those injuries better. And the point there actually on the goalkeepers was made by Shea Given and Danny Murphy last night Chris, which is they have the best goalkeeper in the world in Shea's opinion and in the division in Alisson, but you need two quality keepers to cover that eventuality of injuries. So they've got the best goalkeeper with the best back up, they've got the best centre half in the division, they've got the best central midfielder in the division in their opinion in Gravenbirch this season and then you've got the best goalscorer

in the division. Is that fair? Yeah and yeah I think that's fair and you know they've got strength in depth in the forward areas as well whether it's Diaz or you know Gacpo, Salah, Nunes has been used sparingly, Jota and when you look at all you know the other contenders I don't think, well there haven't been contenders this season that they have had that strength in depth. I think Van Dijk, I mean Steven will know better than me but probably back to where he was before he had that... He's on course to become the first outfielder to play every minute of two league winning seasons since, anybody like to have a guess?

It's another Liverpool player. Oh man. No, it wouldn't be Jordan Henderson. No, Phil Neil in 81, 82 and 82, 83. You should have Premier League. No, I didn't. No, just two league winning seasons. It was football before the... It was football before the...

It was football before the... Yeah, but on Van Dijk, that's the... and actually the season after they last won the title they lost Van Dijk for the majority of the season, didn't they? Yeah, I mean he's key isn't he? I mean what a leader he's been and I think the big thing is when you watch him in key moments and look back to the Merseyside Derby when it all started kicking off at Goodison He was so calm and relaxed and he just pulled players away nice and relaxed

He didn't go in all guns blazing and it was just the temperament of him and whether that's coming from on a slot And it's helping him, but I just thought the way he's he's handled the situation this year and handled himself He is I mean, he's magnificent, but even yesterday, it's not always his defending, it's the way he starts attacks. The passing range is phenomenal, and it's so relaxed and so easy when he does it. I absolutely love him. I think for me, I think that armband can wear heavy,

and I think he's really took that on his shoulders. He's kind of loved that bit of responsibility, and I think he is back to, like what Chris said, he is back to that form of what he was probably before he did his ACL and I think yeah that passing range especially that diagonal of Salah with no back lift. I don't think there's many centre-halves can do that in the league but ultimately I think when Liverpool have needed him and they've been a bit under pressure he's really stood up and also his standards are scary. I think he's not really letting people drop to 90% of the level it's always been 100% and that's what's been the difference

for Liverpool this season. They've they've been top Chris since November the second when they finished the season they'll have been top for 234 days they went 26 league games unbeaten between September 14th and April 6th. There isn't really a question there, it just highlights their dominance. Yeah, and even if you look back to last season, I thought they got fewer points, they got 82 points last season. And 82 already this season, hit the 90 mark, I think we would all think that unless they take the foot off the gas.

But you look at the drop off of Arsenal, you look at the drop off of Manchester City, they were still pretty consistent last season is what I'm getting at. No great change over the summer, Chiesa coming in. And then we all, I think, never saw this coming that Liverpool would win the Premier League this season. I think the injury thing is really interesting with Arna slot and I wonder whether Liverpool had looked at the way that he'd managed in the Netherlands. Someone was telling me that his key players, his big players in the Netherlands, he always kept them fit the way that he managed.

And that's the difference between what Stephen's talked about, the blood and thunder of Jürgen Klopp. But this season, they've found a way controlling games more. And I mean, they have they've made it look easy. And it's anything but an easy thing to do. Yeah, my former colleague, Jack Pitt-Brook at The Athletic, has a theory that Slott is the first manager to have worked out that because of the expanded calendar,

you can't ramp up the intensity level all of the time anymore, that you have to have a slightly more, you've got to have like a passive gear, both in training and in matches, and that that has contributed to the fact that Liverpool have had, as Stephen says, they have missed players.

It's not like Liverpool have had a clean bill of health throughout the season, but they have fared better in terms of kind of fatigued injuries than most of the teams who you'd expect to challenge them. I'm not sure that's what's made the difference. They were, just to be absolutely clear, Liverpool were nine points clear before Bikaio Saka got injured. And they haven't let up since then. But I do wonder

whether there's something in that that that slot's appeal may well have been that he does he's not kind of pedal to the metal all of the time that Klopp was and I think for teams that if you don't watch Liverpool every week, which obviously most people won't do, when you see them play they do look a little bit underwhelming compared to that kind of classic Guardiola team compared to that thrilling Klopp team, but I think they're built to last in a way that maybe Klopp's eyes weren't. You sound a little bit narky there with the Bacchia Saka thing, have you been getting some... No, no, no, it's not that, I think that... You did, didn't you? You did, you did, you did sound a bit like... I've been a little bit narky.

not that I think it's been an emotional 24 hours chap the the I think I think a couple of things have kind of taken hold that aren't necessarily true I think this idea that Arsenal have been unlucky with injuries there's no question about that and I think on their day Arsenal are a better team than Liverpool on their day but Liverpool have been much more consistent than Arsenal this season and I think it's strange that this idea has been allowed to take hold that if Arsenal had avoided injuries it would have been their title. Liverpool were clear before those big injuries happened. Well it's interesting as well though Rory when you say about the theories around the way the seasons played out so Liverpool in the first 16 games got 39 points and we talk about

the next batch of games 17 games before the Spurs game and everyone's saying they've had a drop-off they've actually got 40 points. So the theory around it, it's what it looks like on the eye, but they've actually been still performing at that highest level. But to the eye, it looks a little bit different and it looks a little bit more lethargic. But as you've just pointed out there Rory, it's actually just efficient more than anything and that's what the key to it all is and it's interesting when you're talking about, Chris was talking about on a slot making sure that his key players stay fit. If you look at any title winning team, their key players are always available for selection.

That's how you win titles, your key players stay fit for longer periods of time. That's become synonymous with being lucky, but obviously you need your best players to be there if you want to win the league. That's just how it goes. Every team that wins the league tends not to have massive injuries early in the season. Where's this underwhelming thing coming from? You've said it twice now. I don't actually understand that.

I don't think Liverpool fans, Liverpool fans would have found this season Underwhelming no, I'm not I'm not say perform. It's I'm saying that I don't saying that it hasn't true Liverpool fan bit Well, it's just no just a true Liverpool fan. I don't anybody in particular Anyone I don't think anyone No matter how true or false a Liverpool fan They are I don't think any anyone who wanted Liverpool to win the Lead would say they've been underwhelming. They clearly haven't I think a narrative I've said it to contradict it Chris

I think the narrative has taken hold that Liverpool are not in some way of The same level as the clock team that won the title or the Guardiola teams that have recently won the leads And that's probably true to be perfectly honest. They're not an epoch defining team like Pep City, but I'm not sure that's the bar. They have been the dominant team. They've won the title in April. That basically is all you need to know.

Do you think they are, and maybe you can only be epoch defining by what happens on the pitch. Do you think it's an epoch defining title in terms of how to run a football club? 100% yeah. There were lots of moments yesterday and Stephen was there as well that kind of stood out. Salah taking the selfie, Slot's fist pumps to the Kop the first time he's done that because he's been wary of approaching the Kop for most of the seasons. He doesn't

want to look like a Jurgen Klopp tribute act. Slot paying tribute to Klopp, the first thing he said on the pitch was, I want to, he led the ground incident Klopp's name, but then he said that he wanted to thank the owners and the sporting directors. And I think you can make a case that this one, more than anything that has been achieved in the FSG era at Liverpool before, this is the way that FSG think you win. This is a title designed by them, I think. I'd say well, let I think. Let's hear from Slot who was asked after the match if he had heard from Klopp. I'm 99.9% sure if I'm picking my phone now that there is a message from him. Actually I'm 100% sure but I haven't seen it yet. So many moments in this season the two of us had either WhatsApp contact or we spoke to

each other. He showed last season when he said Farwell what a kind of human being he is by introducing me the way he did. That of course helped but the thing that helped most was that he left the team behind that is able to win a trophy. You come from the Netherlands which is a country which produces more than its fair share of great footballers and great football coaches. You are the first Dutch coach to win the Premier League. That must make you very proud. Will that make your country proud? The first one is for sure. The second one I don't know, but I assume it probably does. It's special, very special because we've had

some great managers as well. Not all of them worked in the Premier League but to be the first one is something that will never change and that is very special, especially at a club like this where it's not that we won it nine out of ten times in the last ten seasons but we did win it twice in the last five seasons. I think a great Liverpool manager when he won the league was asked what can you do now and he said go and win it again. That is something we're definitely going to try next season, but first of all we're going to enjoy the last few games we're going to play and then we will for sure be really good next season again. Steve Wilson with Arna Slott.

Both men deserve a lot of credit, don't they, Klopp and Slott, Steph, in just how the whole thing has been managed? Yeah, I think from that moment that Klopp kind of decided that he wasn't going to be Liverpool manager that final game of the season. I think creating that connection with the fans, with the new manager, I think that is,

the both come across as really classy, and I think we don't really see that too often in this, kind of in this game and at the top level, I think it would have been stupid of Slott not to contact Klopp and be in close contact with him because he knows so much about that players, the group, the environment, and you can see all that work that Klopp's done

for a number of years, Liverpool, that it's now Slott refining it and putting his little bit of a stamp on it, but he was calm enough and collected enough to be able to go, actually I'll take my time on this, I'll assess where the group is and I'll put my stamp on and it might take another couple of years. So this is why this transfer window in the summer becomes more important because actually when we see a little bit more of what Slott wants from his side going forward, like will he bring more of his own players in? And I honestly thought like his interview yesterday, obviously the singing to the cop and to get Jürgen Klopp's name

I think that just shows as a football club in terms of how well it is run and how important that every part of that club Is to go and win a title. Do you think it's good when a manager puts a club strip on over his shirt though? No, I'm not being, no that's not okay. Steven, do you like that? You haven't it? What up? Look I'm just wondering whether that's a good look or not?

Well it's for the club isn't it? It's part of selling the merchandise. Get your champions official kit. Steven's got one on now hasn't he? I bought one for Chappers. But they have, haven't they Stephen? And we've talked about this before, you know, and talked about it last night. Klopp gave that message to his players of you now have to prove yourself to a new manager, not this is how we do it and he has to fit in. You all have to prove yourselves to him. There are so many great articles around at the moment,

you know, Chris Bascom in The Telegraph and Jonathan Northcroft in The Times, James Pearce on The Athletic, all talking about the sort of relationship between the two, the atmosphere that was left behind by Klopp for Slott to then build on. It's very grown up. Yeah, it is really grown up, you're right.

And I think what it shows is, is that there's been a real thought process behind the scenes as to how to make sure that it runs seamlessly or as seamless as it can. So if you look at the situation where Manchester United lost the manager or Sir Alex Ferguson or Arsenal lost Arsene Wenger, it was very much unknown.

Whereas it feels more from behind the scenes at Liverpool that they knew exactly what they were getting with Arna slot, and it was the fit of Arna slot with the squad, can you work with them players and how will it work? And he sold himself to that. I think there's a great article, I can't remember who wrote it,

but he was talking about when Richard Hughes went to get Arna slot, and he walked in, and the dossier on Arna slot and he walked in and the dossier on Arna slot was ridiculously big and Arna slot sort of sat back and was like, Oh wow, you've really done your homework on what I can bring to this football club. And it was like, that's the right fit for me as well, because sometimes it's got to work both ways. But the other interesting part about this is, is that when you go into a football club and you've got a new manager coming in,

it's all very well ringing up your club and saying, what do you think about this player? It's your own opinion. Your opinion might be different on certain players and it might not quite, they might not see it. The case in point is Ryan Gravenberg. He saw something else in a player and decided that there was a different way of him playing.

So from the players point of view you absolutely do have to prove yourself because there's a different style and a different way of playing. And there are a couple of things there Rory and John Gibbons from the Anfield Wrap who I was talking to earlier who seemed very keen to talk to me today for some unknown reason was, there were various points there that dossier that Stephen mentioned you talked about the injuries and what Liverpool looks at when it came to the injuries there but even even looking at the comparison between Feyenoord and Liverpool and

Rotterdam being a port city and the stadium feeling quite similar in terms of atmosphere and how he's his connection with the fans that dossier that they did have had absolutely everything on it and Slot's preparation, flipping the other way, included making full use of every video, every angle, every clip that he could get from training last year under Klopp to see what he could do with players such as Gravenberts to turn them round. Yeah, I mean it sounds silly now just obviously the economics of football have changed so much but Feyenoord and Liverpool are probably quite comparable clubs to be honest and Rotterdam is not unlike Liverpool, De Kaip is not unlike Anfield

they play you'll never walk alone before kick-off but it's like a like jazzed up rocky Dutch version and in many ways it's better but yeah there are similarities there and it felt like a culture. Careful Rory, careful. It's like the one they play at Dortmund, it's a slightly weird continental version. He's not had a great season praising things on the continent so he's just trying to rate it. He doesn't want the Netherlands to go the same way as Turkey so he's just trying to rate it a a bit. I can deal with fine numbers. Is there a Turkish equivalent, Rory? No, no, I don't think there's a Turkish team in the place, you'll never walk alone.

There's normally one in every country, but I'm not sure there is one in Turkey. Anyway, I think what it illustrates is how joined up everything is at Liverpool. There is the difference with what happened after Klopp and Wenger leaving Arslan and Emery coming in and Ferdi leaving United and Moys coming in, is happened after Klopp and Wenger leaving Arslan and Emery coming in and Ferdi leaving United and Moys coming in is that although Klopp had come to kind of, he was the central figure in the structure at Liverpool and that was always going to be a massive risk, it was always going to be a problem, the structure existed. Everything was kind of in place for a new coach to be slotted in and to be honest to have a slightly less powerful role

than Klopp had acquired over the years. Just obviously, Jordan Klopp was such a kind of dominant figure at Liverpool. And I think Slott knew, he knew kind of what the parameters of his role were. He knew that the recruitment stuff was in place, the data stuff was in place, the nutrition people were in place,

the sports scientists, all that stuff existed. Liverpool have built up this kind of background staff that is, it's a horrible kind of LinkedIn term but like best in class really, along with teams like City who have all the same stuff. And Slot came in and he had been hand picked as being suitable for that kind of system. And you're right chap, it's the best word for it, it's all, it's run like a grown up club should be. Do you describe yourself as best in class on LinkedIn Chris for your motivational speaking? I was when I started but I've grown quite bored of it. I was going to say you've

grown quite bored of motivational speaking. That doesn't make a great motivational speaker does it? He needs to attend some motivational talk. You need to have a word with yourself. That's what you need to do. I often do. Let's move on to Gravenbirch cell with Chris. If you look at some of the stats that we had last night for either midfielders or defensive midfielders this season, he is first in the Premier League for Interceptions, he is second for the amount of possession one, second for the amount of possession one in the middle third, third when it comes to successful passes and fourth for ball carry progress. So he is, even though he plays the six, he's a complete midfielder, isn't he? Yeah, I think they all are really at Liverpool. I'll tell you what I think is interesting in Liverpool's

recruitment. You go back to 23 and there was all the talk about Bellingham going in and they signed that summer, the midfield three, which played yesterday and they've been at the mainstays. Bellingham, everybody was thinking he may be the one who takes them to the next level but they didn't. But those three, McAllister, Sobersly and Gravenberg have been different class haven't they? And Gravenberg, even little things like earlier on in the season, he slotted in a centre back didn't he when they went down to 10 men against Fulham, dropped in, showed his versatility there, but he's been phenomenal. I don't think that anybody necessarily saw him playing that sort of deeper midfield

role, but it's just shown what an intelligent footballer he is. But I think McAllister, I know last night saying Gravenboke, best midfielder this season, I think McAllister has run him close, especially in this second half of the season. He's shown his real intelligence. I was going to say then Chris, I think he's been more consistent over the course of the full season McAllister than Grabenberg. I think Grabenberg was exceptional at the start and I think it was just the amount of games almost caught up with him.

He hasn't played that much football over the course of the last few years of his career and it was almost he spoke about it the other day saying, I'm not used to this, this amount of football and it hit, I felt it. But I think with, when you talk about McAllister and Gravenberg, I think they compliment each other extremely well. Gravenberg obviously drives at the ball and he goes forward and McAllister's more than happy to sit there. When you you when everyone looks at McAllister So often they think oh, he's a ball playing midfielder. He's actually incredible at winning the ball back for such a small player I think his turnover in possession is actually higher than Gravenberg's

He's the number one or number two in the Premier League So it tells you everything about that relationship between them that they're quite happy to sit alongside each other but the way they've had to adjust this season, with Mohamed Salah playing in that right position, Gravenberg and McAllister have had to sit deeper when Trent disappears as well, that they are lopsided to allow Salah to play higher up, so there's been an adjustment from that midfield position. But I actually spoke to Arnest Slott yesterday after the game about this and said, what did you see in Gravenberg

that you thought he could play as a six? And he said, height and athleticism, protect the back four from balls going into the centre backs. He can screen it, but also that ability to carry the ball. He said he's a magnificent ball carrier. But the one thing he said was, he has to improve with the ball at his feet. he's not a great passer at the moment, he will get better, so there's obviously, they're obviously always talking about it and thinking

that he's going to improve along the way. I think the most impressive thing for me is that balance in Liverpool's midfield, I think as the guys have rightly said, I think they can all do a bit of everything, they can attack, they can play passers, they can dribblebble but ultimately when you're speaking about Macalester dropping in next to Gravenberg that's okay because they are intelligent enough to do that and they've got a skill set to be able to do that as well but I think for me that that work off the ball is so underrated by us as pundits but also from fans I think ultimately that number six and that's probably why from Manchester City's point of view with Rodri missing a lot of this season they have missed his off

the ball kind of reading of the game plugging gaps when somebody's out of position say if Trent goes missing in that midfield because he's got so much attributes going forward Graven Burke has done that work to fill in that gap to kind of stop counter-attacks and they've all been impressive but McAllister especially yesterday was was superb. And this isn't Rory, this isn't a sort of criticism by any means, it's just a just a highlighting that for all the best laid plans you still need a little bit of luck and Ian Gray-Meabry who wrote, who's written the the book on sort of go behind the scenes of Liverpool's stat-based approach, talked about luck when signing Andy Robertson for example or

Coutinho but actually when it comes to the midfield Liverpool have had a certain amount of luck when they didn't get Juve Bellingham their point was for the price of a Juve Bellingham we can sign three midfielders which is exactly what they managed to do but they had that sort of month or six weeks where they went a bit mad and with Caicedo that was going to be a hundred plus million, Lavier as well Zuba Mendy. And actually, it's worked out for the best for them. Yeah, well the Bellingham thing was the scene in Moneyball,

ultimately, which I think doesn't quite capture Liverpool's approach, but there's that line in Moneyball where he's trying to replace whatever hitter it is, and he says you can't replace his numbers, but you can replace them in the aggregate. They've bought Sobersly, McAllister and Gravenbirch, and that's Jude Bellingllingham and that's not to diminish any of those three players but they obviously wanted three things

from Bellingham. They went and got three players who provided those three things. Sobhuzlai is the other one who I think in terms of off the ball like Steph talked about. Sobhuzlai's work rate is astonishing. He's not always being maybe as creative and I think Slott said that he wants to see him create and score more goals but he buries himself every single week for the team and there was a slightly awkward moment yesterday, I don't know if Stephen was still around the stadium at that stage when they were singing the songs for every player, the Kop and just as the players started to leave the pitch, they obviously worked out they'd not sung one for Sobzlaj

because at the risk of upsetting Hungary's chappers, Dominic Sobzlaj is quite a hard name to get into a song so they just sort of started shouting his name. Are you going to say what was the song? Oh yeah. Well there isn't a song for Soberslay because you can't really do it. I think there was a version of the film. You could do there's only one Dom Soberslay couldn't you? I don't know if it scans though. But look I'm not in charge of the songbook on the cop But they eventually just started chanting Dominic Soberslie and he went over and got his little round

But he's been incredibly important for the work for the work that he's done the way that he He shifts around as well when Gravham Merchant McAllister moves. There's a lot of fluidity in that midfield I'm not I'm not having you can't have a song about Dominic Soberslie. That's The creativity of football fans, That's not that hard. The creativity of football fans, that's not very difficult. This isn't my responsibility, it's not my department Chappers. There was one to American Pie that went around on social media, but I've never heard it at Anfield, so it's obviously not caught on.

And they were obviously trying to think of one in the high pressure moment to think of a song for him. Our producers just said, Hips don't lie by Shakira. I would if Rory if Rory would like to record a version Steven thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Steven Wardock has been with us He'll be about the Champions League highlights on Wednesday evening Liverpool's 20th league title yesterday tied Manchester United's record, Celtic have tied Rangers' record with their 55th league title. How significant is it Chris, that they've drawn level with Rangers? Well, I'd say I think there are two trophies up on

Rangers overall, whether that's more significant. Look, the focus from Brendan Rodgers and Celtic this season, they're not worried about what's going on on the other side of the city. It's just the start of the season, win a league title. Actually, recent seasons, when I was at Celtic, the focus was let's just win a league title at the start of the season. The team in recent seasons, they've won so many trebles at the start of every season now that I think the demands are to win a domestic treble, which shows how times have changed.

When my first season, it was a third domestic treble in the club's history. You think about that, the long history of Celtic last. Well, if they win the treble this season it'll be six out of the last nine and that is impressive and the underwhelming theme, I think there's been a sense of that, you know, north of the border but... Well, Brendan Rodgers has said it is not our fault we're 18 points clear. Yep and people have, you know, looked at Celtic in recent times. There has been a drop-off since they knocked out of the Champions League. There has been a slight drop-off.

But I think people are quick to forget the start of the season. They came into the season flying. They beat Manchester City and Chelsea in pre-season in the US. Started the season on fire, won 16 out of the first 18, drew the other two. The benchmark, the judgement for Celtic this season was always going to be the Champions League and them actually qualifying for the play-off stage was a big deal. They won the League Cup on penalties just before Christmas and they've won the league at a canter and it hasn't been a title race but that isn't Celtic's fault, you know, it's up to other teams to challenge but all in all

it has been a really impressive season, it has felt routine, can't get away from that. So is it right to talk about then, do you think, Rory, lack of competition? It's now 40 years since the last non-old firm top-flight league winner. Yeah, I remember the start of the season that the threat to Celtic wasn't coming from Rangers, it was Jimmy Tallon's Aberdeen, wasn't it? We got very excited about that. We did, and I think it's not hard to understand why. When we got really excited about that the wheels fell off.

Exactly. Let's stop with perpetuating this narrative because we'll never get people on anymore. We need to have a full and frank root and branch review of the things we do on this show to curse teams because it's now a massive pattern. I know, yeah. I don't know if we had it, we never had an Aberdeen. We had Aberdeen podcasters Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah, we didn't have someone from Aberdeen. It wasn't like a direct thing, but it's Chris says six domestic trebles in nine years again two things to be true at once that's amazing for Celtic

But it's really worrying for Scottish football and it's not a stock. There's not the only country where it's happening. It's happening across Europe one team dominating is an existential threat to a lot of these leads and these leads all have huge amounts of history, huge amounts of emotion and passion invested in them. It is not ideal. And what are we Chris? Are we hoping that Jose Mourinho comes into Rangers to save it? Is that the plan? Well, I'm certainly not hoping that Rory. But people, you know, that... I'm certainly not hoping that Rory. But people, you know, and I get where you're coming from with that argument. Rangers have been a massive, massive disappointment once again this season. And you know, everybody talks about the Derby games being so important. Rangers have had the upper hand in the Derby games.

It's just baffling how, you know, they are, I think, what, 17 points behind Celtic at this moment in time. That's totally unacceptable. But people north of the border will look down south and say, well, Manchester City have, you know, dominated the last four seasons, you know, since perhaps they've been there up until, you know, this season. So, you know, I do understand. And that is a is a fair point That is an absolutely the Premier League isn't the Premier League has to look at itself as well and think About its own competitive balance, but I think in Scotland is it's really pernicious to the end The problem is that for Celtic it then starts to raise the the level of what they need to achieve to have For a season to be considered a success. It also it also Steph will raise What challenges? for a season to be considered a success. It also, Steph, will raise what challenges

Brendan Rodgers going forward, you and Murray in the Guardian has written, in Rodgers, Celtic have as fine a manager as they will ever attract. He would not be at Celtic, but for an affiliation to the club. He will always have career options. It would be understandable if he determines three years

for a total then just short of six is enough outside top European league. That's what Ewan Murray wrote in The Guardian. It's I suppose what, you know, he is only 52. It's what challenges him next. Yeah, and I think you've got to look at that as a manager when you've managed in the top flight and in a club for so long. And I think when we're speaking, like Rory and Chris are speaking about the competition, that league, I think has it become a little bit too easy and that's not being really disrespectful to the Scottish League but in the sense of as a manager you have your own individual kind of ambitions

and we've seen him at Liverpool and he did well there, he went back to Celtic and what is his next step, what is he actually thinking and obviously you're probably going to be some managerial changes in the Premier League potentially at the end of the season. Is he looking to come back into the Premier League and maybe have a little bit of a stab at that as well? Well, I never think it's too easy. I mean, that whole notion, I don't know whether you've ever been to Glasgow, Steph, but Celtic can celebrate the title and deservedly so. Start the next season, the Celtic fans would have forgotten about the recent history and there will be massive pressure on the team to go again, to perform in every single game at a really high level, to go again in the Champions League and make

progress. Where's the challenge for Brendan Rodgers though? Where's the Champions League isn't it? That's ultimately what it is. It is, but the challenge every season is to be relentless to perform to such a high level, to play well in every game and to win the treble, that's the sort of standards he's set. I think he's only missed out on one domestic trophy since he's in his two spells now. He's won 11

domestic trophies. I think there's only Jochstein and Willie Mayley in the history of the club. He will do next season, he said that and of course he was going to do next season because he signed a three-year contract and with what happened to him last time walking out on the club I mean you know there's no way he was he was gonna he was gonna do that again you wonder whether you wonder whether don't you Rory whether a Premier League job will become available to him again but you wonder whether he he would be I don't know I'll do a Fiorentina or a Borussia Dortmund or I don't know, a Fiorentina or a Borussia Dortmund or I don't know, Valencia. Yeah, that cast of historic but not quite super club European teams who are colossal

institutions and would look at Rodgers and to be honest feel quite privileged to have a manager of his calibre. Yeah, I think... Milan? feel quite privileged to have a manager of his caliber. Yeah, I think. Milan. Yeah, he would, Rodger, yeah, Brendan Rodgers is of the same caliber of manager as Sergio Conte-South, who is the current Milan manager and will not be for very much longer

because they've had a disastrous season. Although he might win the Coppa Italia. But yeah, he's that sort of manager. You could see him getting that job and he would, I think, welcome that sort of opportunity. But as Chris said, he has, he said he will be at Celtic next season. I think his percentages are going up from 150 to 200%, which suggests that Brendan Rodger, you know,

there's a degree of poetic license with percentage there. But he's gonna be at Celtic next season. He won't walk out on them again. I think that, as Chris says, that's perfectly sensible. But after that, I suspect he'll have to go abroad, as I'm not sure. I think that the Premier League is very faddy and would look at what happened to Rodgers in the final months at Leicester and think he's not good enough anymore. I don't think that's true, but I think that's the way he would be perceived. Women's Football Weekly on the Football Daily.

I'm Ben Haynes. I'm Ellen White. And I'm Jen Beattie. And on Tuesdays on the Football Daily, we bring you the Women's Football Weekly. As a manager, I'm really proud of my players and the performance they had tonight in the game. As we dive head first into all things WSL and beyond in the women's game. It's very big now, it's very alive, there's a lot of fans and supporters.

Women's Football Weekly, only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily podcast, the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds. Let's talk about Welsh football and what felt like a sliding doors moment over the course of the weekend. Wrexham promoted to their championship so they've gone back to back to back promotions on the same day that Cardiff were relegated from the championship into the third tier. Let's talk to Chris Watham from BBC Wales. It does feel

like a seismic shift Chris, doesn't it? Oh yeah. It's been some while since Wrexham could consider themselves above Cardiff City. I think it's not since 2001 that has been the case, but Cardiff's relegation has probably been coming for a number of years and Wrexham, well it just doesn't stop does it and it was such a privilege to be there on Saturday. I said in one of the reports that you know the promotion from non-league after 15 years in the Doldrums where you just thought they were never going to escape that was just relief. Then it's not unusual for sides coming up from the National League to bounce again and with three automatic promotion places it always felt

something they could achieve. But then to get to the championship, absolutely ridiculous and the emotion on Saturday was just incredible and I was presenting a radio wheel sport on Saturday And I was presenting a Rage O' Will sport on Saturday and to get the balance of at five o'clock Cardiff City being relegated and Jason Perry, the former Cardiff captain, mixture of anger and upset at what's gone on at his club, then quickly changing it to this incredible atmosphere at the Kairas. So yes, it was Sunday. So I mean, I'm not saying all Welsh clubs are going to be competing for the same players. I mean, that's kind of nonsense. But if you were going to sign for one club at the moment in Wales, you're signing for Wrexham, aren't you? And that has to be the concern, unless so for Swansea, I suppose, because they're in the same division, but certainly for Cardiff, doesn't it?

I mean, I don't really think that would matter in terms of where you're attracting players. What will, it's interesting people talk about Wrexham's money and for good reason because yet they've been turbocharged by this investment and this profile. But if you're an agent going to a player and you've got an option between a couple of championship clubs, even if you had less money, you'd be picking Wrexham because of everything that goes with it the spotlight the profile Just the fact should be at a club where? Ambition is everything and the excitement. That is what Wrexham have got and I know there's big plans to try and improve their academy to capture that because kids are all wearing Wrexham shirts now where they would

Traditionally been wearing Liverpool Manchester United Everton and there is huge Sways of North Wales fans that make those trips over they're not anymore if they can get a ticket well, it's the um, it's interesting what you say about the um, the agents sort of pointing out that the being part of Wrexham is There are opportunities that you don't get any of the club really. That's a really good point and it hadn't occurred to me. But how do you think Wrexham's finances do stock up? Because obviously, like you say, the national lead to lead two, you do quite often see that kind of double bounce. It happens when the momentum is there. And to be honest, the gap between lead one and lead two, there is a gap in quality, but it's not vast. Then

when you get up to the championship, you're talking like there's a bit of a cliff edge there between the Championship and League One. Directum have the money to match teams that are going to be having access to hundreds of millions of quid in parachute payments? They're not going to match the parachute payments, but they'll match everyone else. Their last accounts for the first season back in the Football League, their revenue was bigger than most of the championship. It certainly would have been top third championship. That's before last

this season just coming and it's going to get bigger. I mean, they've got United Airlines as a sponsor. That's the kind of high profile sponsorship that they have. And that's only going to get bigger because why? Well, yes, the club are doing well and they have this attachment but they're also part of a documentary that's been screened globally. It is unique. There is no other model and if we bring it back to Cardiff Vincent Tan I'd imagine has, I don't know, has more money than Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney and has pumped more money into Cardiff City than the two A-listers but it's what you do with it, isn't it? And Cardiff have not recruited well, have thrown money down the drain and have stacked up those

losses, which is something Wrexham will have to be aware of going up. So yes, they will have to invest, but it's going to be fascinating. I mean, is there a possibility of Cardiff being stuck in the wilderness for a while? How will they go about trying to get back up? I mean, they are a club in a real mess, aren't they? Yeah, and the Cardiff City supporters trust demanding answers from Vincent Tan, demanding meetings, he hasn't been into a game for the best part of a year. And Jason Perry and other former players will tell you that there is no football knowledge on the board. There is no director of football. Vincent Tan does not want the director of football.

He's been there for 15 years, they've had 16 managers. And there is no stability. There's pockets of success, Neil Warnock's promotion, for example. But any Cardiff fan will tell you this has been a long time coming. Interestingly Aaron Ramsey as you all know took charge of the last few games and in a way galvanised that support to try and say, right, just try and save us. He gave a speech at a rather poorly timed awards evening held hours after they

were relegated. And it was incredible. You are kidding me. They had their end of season awards the same night they were relegated. Yeah, previously in the diary, I think. And Ramsey gave this speech that I've seen on social media, which was stunning. It was a real leader of people speech

that said that this club is divided and the only way we will get back is by everyone in this room, fans, directors, sponsors, everyone needs now to sort of take stock and try and get back because, you know, it took them 18 years the last time they were relegated to the bottom two tiers to get back into the second tier. And I had a quick look how many teams from Premier League football have been dropped into to League One. There was 29. Six I still haven't made it back. So it's... Well some of them have gone even lower.

Exactly. But isn't the difference here Chris? And you've just said it there when talking about Tan and the director of football or no director of football and what what was it, 16 managers in 15 years, or 15 in 16. You can have the money that Wrexham have, but to be fair to Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney, they brought people in with the right experience for the right level, and from the outside looking in, let them do their jobs in the areas that they are experts in. That, forget the money, that's how you run a football club.

It seems bizarre to talk about a Hollywood A-lister saying there are no egos there. But that's exactly it. Know what you don't know. And they have put their hands up and as part of the charm of the documentaries that, look, we haven't got a clue about how to run a football club. So let's get people in who do and they brought in, you know, and they paid as they paid well for some of these officials and, and, and experts more props, more so than initially than players, because that's where your success lies.

And, and they're still doing that off the field now. A recruitment under Parkinson and I think in Phil we trust, I think Rob McAhenney said on Saturday and hey, three promotions in three years, it's a good mantra to have, isn't it? It's not easy that, it's not easy that, is it Steph? That Phil Parkinson has been there all the way through, but each campaign,'ve had to they've had to just rejuvenate it and make sure they've got a couple more people in to take them to the next level of that division you know and balancing that sort of loyalty but also that thanks very much that's great but we now need to move on to the next stage that's not easy no it's not easy and i think with

phil parton and you can tell he's able to manage people and he's very good in and around them areas and you're like look at the story of Paul Mullen he was the he was the main guy he was the one that brought them up from League 2 to League 1 and he's probably hardly featured this and that's just the brutality of wanting to get promoted again and they've done a fantastic job and I'm sure if Phil said that in an interview after the game was that I've been able to do the job that I need to do, nothing else. I didn't expect to do anything in the boardroom. It was just me, the training environment, the players,

and it's paid dividends for them because to do that is so impressive. They're not going to go back to back to back to back, are they? You can't you can't see it. You can't see it. However, it was really no one is ruling it out either because I think they're just gonna go and enjoy the moment for now, but plans are already in place.

Something that's really fascinating that's been overlooked is that they've also got other investors. They've opened the door for other investors to come in and just help them with some of their plans. Like a new 5,500 seat to stand that's going in. It'll be being built during the next season, designed by Populous, the same guys behind

the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, for example. And they just say, right, let's use the momentum. And like you said, Steph, a lot of those same players, and they did this last year, and he almost evolves the side by stealth. And the suggestion is he'll do the same, add bits of quality here and there and say right when we're in a position can we go again and I said about the equity that

Allen family from New York State who sold their their family's pharmaceutical device company 10 years ago for two billion dollars are hugely invested emotionally and now financially into the club and they will provide a bit of crutch for investment into the academy, into the training ground which they need. That's one problem they're going to have attracting players. Into the women's set up. So it isn't all about Michael Henney and Reynolds money, it is about this incredible model that they've created and you have to say, it's probably the envy of world football because they will go on US tours. They are huge in America and this isn't a grand plan of we want to tap

into new markets. I was told by one official who bumped into another Premier League club who admitted jealousy that Wrexham have got to a level of US popularity and Rory will know from his work with New York publications that Premier League sides have spent more than a decade trying to reach and I haven't had this confirmed but they go into Australia, there are other markets to tap into. Fascinating. It's not stopping is it? Chris, thank you very much for coming on. Chris Watham from BBC Wales. Just time to talk Arsenal in the Champions League. Women through to the final. Men have the semi-finals coming up this week. Arsenal against Paris Saint-Germain tomorrow live on

Five Live Sport. Not sure we really saw Arsenal women making it, did we? Did we see that coming? No, I think if anybody in an English team it was probably going to be Chelsea, but they came against a very, very good Barcelona side and current holders of the trophy, but Arsenal, fair play I think to come back from 2-1 down at the Emirates to go over to France and perform the way that they did, they really justified why they should be in the final with that performance. She's turned them round brilliantly hasn't she? Yeah it's been, it's an incredible story I think to be able to change your manager pretty

much a quarter of a way through the season, be able to galvanise and get players like Alessio Russo, you've got Beth Mead, you've got Chloe Kelly who you've brought on loan from Manchester City, get them playing and for me I love the fact that these players like Alessio Russo, you've got Beth Mead, you've got Chloe Kelly, who you've brought on loan from Manchester City, get them playing. And for me, I love the fact that these players are gonna be playing in big games in a Champions League final, because for the Lionesses in the summer,

it's so important to have that experience. They last appeared in the final in 2007, and that remains the sole occasion an English side has won the competition in its 24 year history. there is progress there and yet Barcelona still look light years ahead of everybody else. They did, I think an aggregate of A2 is something that you think that's in a really early group stage in terms of a team that's not really invested not really bought the best players but you look at this Chelsea side and they've invested a lot

of money to try and win this competition, but yeah, Barca, I think in terms of we spoke about Liverpool, that complete package, that stability off the pitch, but also a way of playing that's unique to them and also getting the players that are able to do that and you've got the best player in the world in Bon Matty who absolutely ran the show yesterday and I think for me Chelsea, Chelsea being beat by Barcelona the last three years in a row and they cannot really bridge that gap in terms of the quality and of course the experience as well, Barcelona know how to win and they showed that over the two legs, that's for sure yesterday.

Does it make a big difference for England? I mean you mentioned some of the big players that Arsenal have, does it make a big difference for England? I mean you mentioned some of the big players that Arsenal have, does it make a big difference for England going into the summer and the Euros that Russo, Kelly, Williamson will all have a Champions League final? I love the fact I think I wish I'd played in a Champions League final, I think that's one thing that I didn't really achieve in my career, you know frustrates us because you get so many semi-finals but I think you cannot replicate playing in them big pressure moments where you have to perform and I think if England are to be successful, they've already experienced success in the Euros when it was back here in 2022 but to go again and really win again you have to experience them and for me

the most important thing is that they're all in form, which is great for England. Do you think the men will get past Paris Saint-Germain, Chris? No. Oh, good. Right, then. That's the end of Monday night club. I do. I do. We end that Monday night club on that big negative for Arsenal. This is the football story of the century. It's pandemonium, it's ecstasy. It's an authoritarian regime. This is the football story of the century.

It's pandemonium, it's ecstasy. It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years, English football has been dominated by Manchester City. Eight Premier League titles, six League Cups, three FA Cups, one Champions League. And more than a hundred charges. Somebody turned up at the Etihad Stadium and effectively served papers. I'm Clive Myrie and this is Football on Trial. The Manchester City charges.

They believe they've got irrefutable evidence. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One and Red Bull Racing like never before. And I'm Matt Magindy and thanks to my exclusive access I'll be getting up close and personal with the Red Bull Racing team this season. This week we're focusing on that five second penalty for Max Verstappen. I don't see any

world in which you could say that, oh no, that was fine. And we're getting very excited about a sit down interview with the big dog team principal Christian Horner. Experience Formula One like never before by tuning into the Inside Track wherever you get your podcasts.