Football Daily - Monday Night Club special: Premier League & World Cup final official Darren Cann

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

Recently retired assistant referee Darren Cann joins Mark Chapman, Steph Houghton, Chris Sutton and Rory Smith on the Monday Night Club to provide some amazing insight into life on the touchline. Among other things, he discusses his career - explaining what a week in his life looked like. He also explains how VAR has changed the role of an assistant referee and explains how officials block out hostility from players and fans. And - the big question - is Chris Sutton or Darren Cann a better footballer? Oh - and how many miles has he run sideways? The answer is really rather amazing.Timecodes: 00:31 Darren Cann's background. 07:46 How do referees analyse their performances? 12:20 Has VAR changed the role of an assistant referee? How do referees communicate? 18:36 Darren's best moments and the 2010 World Cup. 22:20 How do assistant referees train and what skills do they need? 25:28 What is a refereeing team like and why is a good relationship with that team so important?BBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week: Tue 20:00 - Arsenal v PSG in the UEFA Champions League. Wed 20:15 - Man Utd v Chelsea in the Women’s Super League. Thu 20:00 - Athletic Club v Man Utd in the UEFA Europa League. Thu 20:00 - Tottenham v Bodø/Glimt in the UEFA Europa League.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Welcome to the Inside Track with me Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One and Red Bull Racing like never before. And I'm Matt Magindian. Thanks to my exclusive access I'll be getting up close and personal with the Red Bull Racing team this season. This week we're focusing on that five second penalty for Max Verstappen. I don't see any world in which you could say that, oh no, that was fine. And we're getting very excited about a sit down interview with the big dog team principal, Christian Horner. Experience Formula One like never before by

tuning into the Inside Track wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcast On the Football Daily Podcast The Monday Nightclub With Mark Chapman Listen on BBC Sounds Steph Horton, Rory Smith, Chris Sutton with us in the studio. Delighted to say Darren Cann who's retired this month after a record-breaking career as an assistant referee. 579 matches in the Premier League A World Cup final A Champions League, a World Cup final, a

Champions League final, an FA Cup final, three championship player finals across 25 years. Why didn't you wait till the end of the season? Because my knee is not too clever at the moment. So I had to bring my impending retirement forward by six games. Did you always want to do it? Yes, I always wanted, well I didn't want to injure my knee. No, no, no. I wanted a career as an assistant referee. I never wanted to be a referee. I only ever wanted to be an assistant referee.

So I'm very privileged to have had the career that I've had. And from what age did you, what age did you start and did you discover your career path? Yeah, yeah, don't get me wrong. I didn't want to be a referee or an assistant when I was young. I wanted to be a footballer. I was at Norwich City, the same as Chris,

as a youth player, but then I didn't make the grade. I went to Crystal Palace for a couple of years under Steve Kopple and again, got released. So I sort of fell into refereeing really. And it was probably a good choice. It's the best decision Steve Kopple made getting rid of me because I was able to have a nice career doing something else. So why did you not want to be the man in the middle?

What for you is the allure of doing the assistant referee's job as opposed to being that man in the middle? I think you need different skill sets to be the main referee or an assistant referee. As a referee you need good management skills, you need good communication skills and those are skills that I don't think I have. Whereas as an assistant referee you just need to be accurate effectively with offside decisions, that's 90% of the job and if your skill set is more akin to that than communicating and managing people then that's the place to stay. We were having a discussion weren weren't we, Steph,

before we came on air about all the noise that's around refereeing and VR and so on and so forth and decisions that are right and decisions that are wrong. And we were saying, weren't we, one of the things that genuinely impresses us and doesn't get praised enough are offside decisions and how many are got right. I know sometimes when they're under a bit of pressure, the PGMOL, they stuck out.

Well, we get 98% of offside decisions correct. But to get them right is an astonishing skill. Yeah, I mean, even just that CV is impressive in itself. I think to be able to have gone through that many games, also World Cup final, Champions League final, I mean, that's unbelievable. But I think in that moment we were speaking and we were just like, because of the pace, especially at the top level,

that speed and that ability to make them decisions is so impressive. Like when we're in studio, we're speaking on here, we'll have seen that incident 10, 15 times and we still can't really make our mind up. But generally a lot of the decisions are right, which is impressive. Thanks, Steph. How do you do it?

With difficulty to be honest. It's hard, it's really difficult. Especially when there's three or four forwards and three or four defenders at a free kick, let's say a wide free kick coming into the box. Sometimes you've got to look at eight or nine different people and the ball at the same time and obviously make that judgment at the moment the ball's kicked. So it is difficult but it's like any any skill the more you practice generally the better you get. So when you are running the line and we're talking open play here rather than from a free kick or a corner, to make an offside decision what's the most important thing that you are looking at

in open play? Is it trying to second-guess where the ball is gonna come from? Is it make sure you don't... Some of these may be stupid questions. Is it trying not to fall over? Is it being aware of which one of the three players may be trying to get in behind the back? What is it? All of the above.

It really is everything. You have to watch the ball and watch the second rearmost defender, but sometimes that changes in fluid play all the time. And then of course different players are making runs going offside, but then the ball doesn't come to them. So effectively your eyes just taking hundreds and hundreds of photos. Every time the ball is kicked, you're just taking a photograph to have a freeze frame, because of course it might hit the bar and come back and you need

to judge where the people were, not now, but where they were at the time the shot came in. So you are, your eyes are lens and you are basically just taking photos and developing that information should you need to put the flag up. Have you found it harder in the last few years because of the pace of the game to make them decisions? I have Steph to be honest yeah well one I'm getting older I'm 56 now so it's hard to keep up with with these fantastic athletes I mean they're great footballers as you know Steph and and they're as well. You have to be an athlete now in this

day and age so it's one physically tough to keep up with them but secondly the transitions are so much more quick in football now. So many teams just break and six seconds later they're in the opposition's penalty area and so not only is it physically difficult mentally it gets harder and harder each season I would say. I apologize from what might be coming next because Chris has that look on his face that he's... You're better than that Steph, you are. I mean players back in our day... I'm just saying the speed of playing forwards is a lot better now Chris. Chris, your day and Steph's day are not the same day. No I was going to say that! To be honest, they're not even in the same week.

No, yeah, and I corrected myself. But we did have some athletic players, some very fast players back then. We weren't all overweight. He's just said the games got quicker and the forwards have got quicker because they're more athletic, Chris. That's an experience assistant referee there. I think he was just being kind.

He's really not. Darren, the game, as you say, has got a lot faster because players in the late 90s in particular were very slow and cumbersome. But has the changing of the guidelines, not just the introduction of technology, but the changing of interpretations of offside, the changing of interpretations of other types of decisions. How much did that complicate the role? Yeah, that's a really good question Roria. The offside law is very complicated as you know. There are seven different ways you can be penalised now for offside, whether it's interfering with play.

There's four different ways you can interfere with an opponent, for example. And again, you have to compute all of that information in real time and you have a second to almost scroll through the law in your mind. And of course you have to know it like the back of your hand. So it is difficult and of course the teams are pushing the boundaries more and more with players in offside positions. For example, at corners in front of goalkeepers and then moving out the way when there's a header towards goal. And so yeah, it's getting harder and harder. The laws, yeah, the offside law is probably

one of the most complicated laws as well. So it's not easy at all from that point of view, Rory. You know how we always say that goalkeepers are a special stripe of person, like goalkeepers. There was always that idea that goalkeepers were slightly less, I don't know, sane than most footballers. And number nines.

Yeah, well, it's the ones where, I mean there's no bossy Peelham being a goalkeeper, but what you're talking about in terms of kind of the decision making process that assistant referees need, do you find that among your colleagues you all kind of think in the same way? Does it attract a certain type of person? Yes, I think it probably does. I think it's quite an analytical person as opposed to the referee who is there to facilitate the whole game of football and as I say communicate well and I think from the assistant's point of view it's just very much a more rigid position

where you're likely to try and make I suppose decisions that are factual as opposed to those subjective decisions around penalties or free kicks, that type of thing. So it does probably take a different type of person, yes. I don't know why I shouldn't be surprised by this, but you analysed your performances in the same way as the players would analyse theirs. Absolutely, yes. So we get a match appointment on a Monday afternoon, so we only have five days to prepare for the game and then the preparation starts and it's hours and hours of preparation. I look at the last 30

corners both attacking and defending that both teams do, the last 30 free kicks they've had, because certain teams as you'll know have certain routines and if you have an idea of the sort of thing they're likely to do then you can get that 1% marginal gain I guess the same thing happens after a game. I watch back my my game twice. So it gets pretty boring The first time with the commentary just to get a feel of the game and look at decisions and then the second time is just With the audio soundtrack of the referee and the two assistants talking because we can improve our communication in certain situations as well. Sometimes we don't agree with each other on a decision.

So the second time is watching the whole 90 minutes back just with the audio of the referees. Darren, I was gonna ask that. I think like, you know, obviously say you assist a referee on the Sunday, like what is your like schedule leading up to that next game? Obviously you've explained a lot about the analysis but do you have someone as well that you kind of in touch with in terms of certain decisions

that you kind of bounce off or like areas of improvement? I'm just thinking from a player's point of view that's how your week would be spread in terms of your analysis but it's like okay how do I improve to the next game and obviously you've done that over a lot a lot of games and the games change so much so I was just so interested to see what like it would look like from game to game. Yeah, I mean, it is a full-time job. So we have coaches, we all have a personal coach that I speak to on a regular basis regarding previous matches and also how we see the potential match at the

weekend going and certain things to look out for. Again, the set piece routines, do teams play with a high line? So there are certain teams, as you know, in the Premier League, who defend almost at the halfway line, which of course is going to lead to more offside decisions because people are going to take a chance breaking the line more often because there's so much more pitch to go into. So having a clear idea, not prejudging, but having a clear idea of the patterns of play, the styles, the personnel on duty as well. That's so important to have that visualisation to go into the game confidently.

When you are standing in the tunnel before a game from a player's perspective, I know what that felt like. Much narrower tunnels in your day. What's... Yes, they were. That was if we were lucky enough to have a tunnel. What went through your mind? What goes through your mind when you're standing in that tunnel ready to go? Did it change the longer that you were an assistant? I think you have to be focused really. As you know Chris, it's quite a

tense time in the tunnel. It's that moment where you're just about to walk onto the field and yeah, you just have to have your mindset right, I think. Were you nervous? I used to be nervous more for refereeing when I refereed local matches at your beloved Roxham for example. I was more nervous in the middle than I am on the line so after 20 years I've sort of started to get the hang of it. It's a shame I'm retiring now but just as I was getting the hang of it but now as an assistant I don't get nervous. I think as a referee even on a local parks game I would still be nervous now to be honest and how how self-critical would you be, you know? No doubt you would have made the odd sort of error

I mean did you you know take that home with you, you know We're you sort of really harsh on yourself with that Yeah, the thing I want to stress is that referees care so much about the game. We don't, as you know, just turn up at five to three on a Saturday afternoon. Don't you? I'm joking. Hopefully not. We work really hard to try and get every decision right.

We do, you're right Chris, I get lots of decisions wrong. And there's decisions that I've given in the Premier League. I remember one from 20 years ago, almost 20 years ago to the week, I won't tell you the teams, but it still haunts me now. I just got an offside wrong. It was one of those crossover offsides where a forward and a defender cross over at the moment, the balls kick and I got it wrong by about half a yard. Of course, in those days there was no VAR to correct it and I still live with that decision now.

I ruled out a perfectly good goal and that still hurt. It wasn't one of yours, Chris, by the way. It was only half a yard Darren. Listen, we're all responsible for then going, you know, unfortunately piling on to a certain extent, but you know, when you take a step back, it was half a yard. It was, yeah, but it was one that I felt I should have got right. So in this era now with VAR, have you had to learn another skill?

I don't know how many VARs have corrected your decisions. It'd be amazing now if you went, they've never corrected one of them. Sadly they have. They have, right. So that's another element there of it's corrected you and you are then stood actually closer to the crowd than the man in the middle having got something wrong. So you've got the people behind you probably giving at you and in your head you're probably having to think, I've got to put that behind me, but I can see how much you care about it.

Yeah. So have you have you learned to deal with that? You know that's a really insightful question that is because that was the hardest thing to change that mindset when before you'd have to wait till you got home to see match of the day to see if you got the decision right or wrong. And now, as you say, you've been corrected instantly in front of 50 or 60,000 people and maybe millions watching on television. And that was really difficult to start with because everyone knows that you've got that wrong at that very moment. But the way I think we've learned is that we're now a team of six rather than a team of four. So the VAR and the assistant

VAR are part of the team. All that really matters is getting the correct decision in the end. So if I do get overturned on a game, then at least I have the comfort of knowing that justice has been done and the correct decisions been made. How good are you at shutting out the noise behind you? Because that's, it shouldn't be in some ways, but it is part of it and sometimes you know you go to a National League game or whatever and you're within touching distance of the assistant referee and you feel as being in the crowd that you might be able to influence them a little bit or put them under a bit of pressure depending on whether they're giving

decisions for your team or not. How good are you at shutting them out? Well it's probably got better over the years. Again the more you do it the more you get used to it. I'm very lucky because we wear the earpiece the referee is talking to us constantly anyway and so I can't hear anything in one ear anyway. I'm a little bit deaf in the other ear anyway, so it's not too bad. That's the key to it. So I think, yeah, but you're right, the key really is to concentrate and focus so much on the role, because as we talked about earlier, the game is so quick

and you can't afford to lose concentration for one second. And so you do have to shut out the external noise. So I'm sure the fans are singing sometimes unpleasant things at me, but I don't hear them. I just completely shut everything out and just focus on that game. I was going to ask Darren, is the flip side of VAR that it takes away the risk that you might have another error that you live with in the same way as the one in 2004 did?

Yeah, absolutely, Roy. I think we don't change our mindset for VAR. So, obviously, I've retired now two weeks ago, but even on my last match at Manchester City against Crystal Palace, my mindset going out is to try and eradicate the VAR for that 90 minutes. Because if I get all my decisions correct, then we don't need VAR. And so that to me is the best way to deal with it. because if everything is correct then the VAR isn't needed. But if I do make an error like I did Roy before then at least I have the comfort of knowing

it's going to be corrected. So after a game, you have a good game, you don't make an error and you'd sit in the room at the end of the game. Do you feel happy or do you just feel relief? Yeah, relief probably is the overriding factor, Chris, if I'm absolutely honest. Why me Darren? That's such a hard existence to sort of at the end of it just feel relief that you've got through it rather than have enjoyed it. Yeah, I've been so blessed to meet such wonderful people in football, so I've had a career that I've absolutely loved.

And there's been magical moments within that career. But yeah, I think probably the overriding factor is I've got through no mistakes, so it's a job done okay, if you like. What is it about assistant refereeing that you love and loved? What is it, if the reaction is to a game that's gone well, I'm glad that's over, what is it that makes you think, right, I'll do it again on Saturday? I think it's just the love of football, Rory. I mean, I love football, I follow England,

England are my team rather than the club team, but I just absolutely love the game of football. I wasn't good enough as a player but I thought the next best thing is to still be on the pitch either as the ref or the assistant referee and so it's just yeah it's just a constant love of football that has kept me going and and I also I just want to serve the game because somebody has to referee and I found something that I was okay at and so I was happy to carry on and serve the game because it's a game that I love.

Darren, have you felt since VAR has come in that you've had added pressure because you're kind of not just refereeing just the game, but you're obviously trying to prove VAR that you don't want to make a wrong decision. And I think to like allude to what Chris and Rory are saying, has that changed your enjoyment of your role? It's probably made it even more enjoyable because as Rory alluded to, if you do make a mistake at least you haven't cost a team three points. So it's a comfort to have it in the background. Without VAR there's no safety net, it's a

little bit like somebody walking a high wire with no safety net underneath and you don't want to fall off. Of course you don't want to fall off with the safety net anyway but you're relieved when you do have that net there so I think that's the best analogy that I can pull. I'm Aaron Paul and I'm Jovi Makenup and on Wednesdays on the Football Daily we bring you 72 plus the home of the EFL from Five Life Sport. As we'll get stuck into the latest from the Football League and beyond. I can't put a finger on why we weren't as energetic as we usually are. What they've got there is genuinely good people that really care about that football club and the fans have been huge in terms of the backing that they've given to this group.

That's 72 Plus, the EFL podcast only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC. The EFL podcast only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC. Welcome to the Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One and Red Bull Racing like never before. And I'm Matt Magindy and thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with the Red Bull Racing team this season. This week, we're focusing on that five second penalty for Max Verstappen. I don't see any world in which you could say that, oh no, that was fine. And we're getting

very excited about a sit down interview with the big dog team principal, Christian Horner. Experience Formula One like never before by tuning into the inside track wherever you get your podcasts. You're such a nice bloke, Darren. You need to big yourself up a little bit. Everything is sort of relief and sort of down. What's the best decision you've ever made? Big yourself up a bit. Best decision? Well, I don't really like to talk about best decisions. I suppose the one that gave me the most satisfaction was a game in the 2010 World Cup and it was Brazil against Chile and it was one of those crossover offsides. This time, thankfully,

it was about 8 inches, 10 inches onside and I kept the flag down and the goal was scored and that was the game that cemented our possibility of refereeing the World Cup final and sure enough a few days later we were given the final. You must have been happy then after that. Yes. Were you terrified of getting something wrong in the World Cup final? No. That would be really bad. No, I was absolutely elated. That was a time when there was real satisfaction on the pitch and that's the only time I've actually cried during a football match as well, because I knew it was such a crucial decision. You're in Brazil, Chile?

Yes, because it came the day after the Frank Lampard goal that was out of goal. There was also another refereeing error that same day with Argentina. And so there were two massive referee mistakes the day before, and we couldn't afford to make another mistake. And so had that decision have gone wrong then that wouldn't have... So during the game you had tears in your eyes? Yeah, as soon as it was clear that it was the correct decision. It was one where sometimes you don't know if you've made the right decision, Chappers, to be honest. Sometimes you're thinking...

How did you know? Did somebody let you know? No, no, but luckily the crossover happened dead on the 18 yard line so effectively I had a line, a marking line, so I had absolute confidence that was the correct decision. And when you had tears in your eyes did you have a tissue to wipe them away? Otherwise you could have got seven decisions wrong after that because you couldn't see. Well I probably did get seven decisions wrong after that because you couldn't see. Well, I probably did get seven decisions wrong, but that gave me great satisfaction. That tournament, and this is slightly moving away from taking decisions,

but how you support the man in the middle. That World Cup final was a tough World Cup final to referee. The Dutch decided they were just going to go out and kick Spain up in the air for 90 minutes. In the course of that game, did you feel I need to be supporting Howard here they were just gonna go out and kick Spain up in the air for 90 minutes. In the course of that game, did you feel I need to be supporting Howard here with what I'm saying to him in his ear or did you leave him to get on with it? How did you work? We're very much a close-knit team and there is a lot of dialogue and I distinctly remember

after about 20 minutes Howard saying on the radio headset this game isn't going how we anticipated it was going because he'd already shown I think four yellow cards at that time and I had to say to him just keep going you're doing the right thing you know some of the tackles were strong tackles as you know and you have to issue cards if players want to sort of make agricultural tackle shall we say. So what do you say at half time to each other? Because this is that that is exactly the same dynamic as Steph would have gone

through in a change room with a manager, Chris, Chris, you know, with a manager. What, how do you have to understand each other really well by the time you get in at half time to know whether you need to talk to each other, whether Howard might just need five minutes in the loo to get his head together and whatever it may be. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the art of an assistant on the pitch as well, knowing when to come in and when to stay out because you don't flag every foul that you see because if the foul is in the centre circle you know the referee's going to take care of that and so it's knowing when to come in, when not to, exactly the same at half time in every game as well.

Just knowing, you know, when to give a word of encouragement, when not to. So that is absolutely crucial. Yes. You've mentioned lots of insightful questions. Here are a couple of stupid ones. How much do you have to practice running sideways? Occasionally, I do run over the park sideways and I do train with my flag sometimes as well to get some strange looks from people walking their dogs. So sometimes in a park you are training sideways with your flag? Yes because I have to replicate what I do on a Saturday. Do you put it up? No, no. Right, okay, just hold it. It's a running technique.

You did say there's going to be one or two stupid questions. Yeah, absolutely. I'm here for the stupid questions. Chappers has been practising before you came here. Have you ever run the line? I have never. I have run the line in kids football very, very occasionally. But interestingly, Joe Hart, when we work with Joe, Joe actually puts an imaginary flag

up for offside whenever we are working together. He does the action. I bet his accuracy level is spot on as well. He is. So you do that. Then the other thing is you work with, or you've had conversations with Steven Feeney, haven't you, who is primarily a snooker coach, but he talks about the dominant eye and peripheral vision. So one, how beneficial has he been?

But secondly, does your dominant eye affect which half you pick? So the senior assistant always operates on the dugout side of the pitch because that person tends to have more experience because sometimes the managers might choose to say one or two things, shall we say? I refuse to believe that.

So the more senior person tends to be on that side. In terms of the dominant eye, yes I've done a lot of work on that. I love snooker, I love tennis, I love all sports but snooker in particular is really really interesting and that's where Steve's technique also in golf as well, his expertise is. Again with the alignment of putting and my alignment of offside is so important. Are you a good snooker player or golfer because of that? I used to play a little bit of snooker but only once a week. I've never made a hundred break and 56 is my highest break, which isn't too bad for an amateur who only plays once

a week. But I will definitely be playing a lot more snooker than retired. I have a supplementary stupid question. Is the knee injury related to the running sideway? Yes, I think it is Rory. I've had keyhole on both knees about five years ago for torn meniscus and I've torn my meniscus again. So I didn't know that at the time but it was just a niggle that was getting worse rather than better And as you say the knees aren't designed to crab along the touchline And I've probably somebody calculated the other day that I've probably run 10,000 miles sideways in my career and so so yes It's probably a contributory factor to money not being so good. Darren, the team thing fascinates me,

and I don't know how many different sort of teams you've been in as an assistant, but there must be some where you felt far more comfortable than others. So what were those relationships like? Did you ever go out and not have faith? You don't have to name names with certain people you sort of worked with. Do you know, I've been really lucky Chris, when I got onto the Premier League I immediately started working with the best referee of his day, Graham Pohl, and then I started working with a guy called Alan Wiley, who was probably the best referee in between P and Webb and then 10 years with Howard Webb and Mike Dean for three years. So really established very, very good experienced, skillful referees. And then my last referee I worked with was the Australian Jared Gillett, who is a world

class referee himself. So I've been really lucky to work with the best referees and hold onto their coattails really. Any success that I may have had is down to working with great referees. So I've been very lucky. I haven't had too many that I haven't enjoyed working with. You talked about being on that side by the dugouts and what managers may scream at you and players scream at you as well. Sometimes I do find it if you behave like that in amateur football you're banned for two months, three months. How hard is it not, if somebody is there and screaming in your face, how hard is it not

to respond? It is difficult not to respond sometimes, but again, you have to stay level-headed, you have to stay calm. If you're emotional, if you get involved, then you end up making wrong decisions. So you do have to be emotionless to a degree but of course what's really important is you do have to bring that to the attention of the referee because if somebody is Saying something or just arguing with your decisions and in your face Then they have to get at least a yellow card possibly a red card depending on what's said

So so they can initiate your hand at the end of it and it's done for you Yeah, everyone starts with a clean slate every single game. There have been players that have said some not very pleasant things at times but if I see that player again a month later in another game totally clean slate and we start again. Come on Darren you must hold a grudge against someone some time. No but Chris like Darren said it's a factual objective thing. It's not like you can be like, well, that guy shouted at me two weeks ago, so now I'm just going to pretend he's offside.

Yeah, absolutely. You have to make every single decision with integrity, with honesty, and with respect, and that's all I've ever tried to do over the last 20 years. You mentioned being a... Some people don't carry grudges, Chris. It can happen. You talked about being an England fan. Yes.

Do you have a sort of regret that your career, publicly at least, I don't, privately you may have a club team, I don't know, but has not allowed you to have a club team. Do you think this whole furore that has been over the last couple of years about whether a referee does have a team or not is valid? I don't think it matters at all whether someone has a club team. My father used to take me to Norwich City, I live in Norwich, is how I know Chris.

In fact I used to play football with Chris when he was six years old. He hasn't changed at all I can assure you. Chris thinks he may have gone around your house don't you? Yes, well... Yeah I think I did but yeah,, that's our dad's new each other didn't they that's that's right Chris's dad Mike and my father dick both played for Norwich City and In their later years, they played for a team called Norwich City All-Stars the old sort of veterans Used to play football and then Mike and my dad used to invite me and my two brothers to Chris's house

Or Chris and his brothers came to my house and we used to just play five-a-side football in the garden for hours and yeah he was a little rottweiler then he was Chris so he was only about seven or eight years old but yeah. You mentioned that you were on the books at Norwich as well so who was the better player at that age you or Chris? Well I'm about four years older than Chris, so all I would say is Chris has had an outstanding career. Oh Darren, you've retired, you don't have to be diplomatic anymore.

No, I mean I remember watching him play not only at centre forward at Norwich but centre half as well, so very versatile he was too. Two final things, did you enjoy going on pointless? I loved it I've got to say it's one of the best days I've ever had Richard Osman was such a gent and he loves his football as you know and yeah he spared a few minutes to speak to me and he absolutely loved it and I loved it even more what a lovely man. Have you done pointless? No he's pretty pointless. You will get asked I'm sure you will gassed. What are you going to do now? I honestly don't know.

I'm sure I'll stay in refereeing or staying football one way or another. I must say, I love, this is new to me, but I love radio, I love TV. I love explaining decisions. So if there's any way I can do something like that in the future, that would really appeal. But I'm passionate about refereeing,

I'm passionate about football as well so there genuinely is no plan. I may well stay with PJMOL and help the next generation of referees as well so there's lots of options I'm excited for the future. Let me just put this question that somebody sent in. Rob, would you recommend a young person today start out as a ref or an assistant referee with all the pressure that we've talked about social media and everything or would you be reticent about advising it? Well I'm not on any social media at all, I don't have any social media accounts. I would thoroughly recommend somebody taking up, you have to be 14 years old to start the referees course,

but I started when I was 21 and I've had a wonderful, wonderful life, I've met some really, really special people and there's no reason why someone starting out now can't do that in 10 years time as well. Do you think, finally, I'm sitting here, I don't know what everybody else thinks, thinking, could have done this interview with you 15 years ago and then every time I watch you make a decision,

we have a greater understanding of what you have to go through to make your decision. And I know from going to do stuff with PJMOL and stuff, that there are a lot of just normal men and women doing this job and there is a craft to it and an insight to it and an effort to it. And it's a, you know, it's a vocation. Why don't more of you talk?

Well, I agree. And hopefully this will, you know, start the ball rolling. I'm very happy to- Not in a post-match, why have you got that wrong? But just in a, tell us about what you do. Yeah, I think it creates a better understanding. It also breaks down barriers. And hopefully it shows that we're just humans

who love the game of football because we wouldn't do the job if we didn't love football. Thank you very much for coming in. I'm so pleased you were a better footballer than Chris when you were young. That's also very good. I do remember vaguely that I was much better than him. That's all I remember. Even vaguely.

You've said that while he's not here. Yeah, exactly. It's the scandal that rocked Rugby Union to its core. The so-called Bloodgate scandal. Tom Williams now receiving attention. It seems so clear that this wasn't real blood. It's out and out cheating. This is a story of lies and deception, conspiracies and cover-ups. There was terror that it could tear the house down. Courtroom drama and secret deals. So obviously a lie. And a human cost that changed lives and careers forever. D Richards is found guilty and banned for three years. I'm Ross Kemp and this is Sports Strangers

Crimes Bloodgate. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to The Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One and Red Bull racing like never before. And I'm Matt Magindy and thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with the Red Bull racing team this season. This week we're focusing on that five second penalty for Max Verstappen. I don't see any world in which you could say that, oh no, that was fine. for Max Verstappen. I don't see any world in which you could say that, oh no, that was fine. And we're getting very excited about a sit-down interview with the big dog team principal Christian Horner. Experience Formula One like never before by tuning into the Inside

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