Football Daily - Monday Night Club: The magic of the cup & a goalkeeping masterclass

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

Have the FA Cup quarter-finals shown the importance of the competition? Mark Chapman is joined by Rory Smith, Chris Sutton and Monday Night Club debutant Joe Hart to discuss the weekend’s FA Cup action. They look at why the FA Cup is so important for so many teams, and discuss the benefits of a range of teams lifting the trophy. Former Crystal Palace player and coach Shaun Derry drops by to discuss his former club’s remarkable run to the semi final as they reach their second FA Cup semi final in four years. Arsenal’s new sporting director is also a topic of conversation – how does the dynamic of the manager having a say in their appointment work? Hear from Mikel Arteta on his appointment. Joe also gives a masterclass in goalkeeping and the work goalkeepers put into preparing for a penalty shootout, and he remembers saving a penalty from Lionel Messi! Plus, after Brian Graham was appointed interim manager of Partick Thistle men (alongside Mark Wilson) until the end of the season, he joins the podcast to explain how he balances that with being the captain, leading goalscorer and women’s team manager!TIME CODES:02:20 – The excitement of cup football 12:35 – Former Crystal Palace player and coach Shaun Derry 26:10 – Arsenal’s new sporting director, Andrea Berta 36:45 – Joe’s goalkeeping masterclass 45:20 – Football’s busiest man, Brian GrahamBBC Sounds / 5 Live midweek Premier League commentaries:Tue 1 Apr 1945 Arsenal v Fulham on 5 Live, Tue 1 Apr 2000 Nottingham Forest v Man Utd on 5 Sports Extra, Tue 1 Apr 1945 Wolves v West Ham on BBC Sport website, Wed 2 Apr 2000 Liverpool v Everton on 5 Live, Wed 2 Apr 1945 Newcastle v Brentford on 5 Sports Extra, Wed 2 Apr 1945 Bournemouth v Ipswich on BBC Sport website.

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Welcome to the Monday Nightclub. Rory Smith and Chris Sutton are here. Joe Hart makes his debut as well. So just before coming on air, I asked him what has been his best debut, what was his worst debut, and his reply was all of them were very unmemorable, so you'll fit right in on this show over the next two hours. Not one memorable debut.

No, just gone through them all. Nothing interesting went on. Excellent. You've got to be honest, no? Very similar to that, Joe. Very similar to that. just gone through them all right nothing interesting went on excellent got behind his neck very similar that Joe very similar to that well what massively a memorable debut years yeah yeah no big goals no lots of misses that was that was that was my thing what can I just ask you a question before we get started did you did you back that horse no I didn't know I didn ask you a question before we get started? Did you did you back that horse? No, I didn't

No, I didn't back that horse in the Lincoln. I don't think we need to go over that now. Do we? Do we not? No Just ask her. I'm just asking for a friend. Okay, very very amusing actually. It's nice I don't well you Joe and Rory wouldn't well Joe Joe is aware of it because I talked him through it yesterday Rory obviously I'm completely baffled. Yeah, big listener on the Saturday afternoon, are you Rory? I've been dealing with a Mother's Day weekend in which my wife is ill, so Saturday afternoon unfortunately was given over to child care. My apologies. What happened with the horse? All I'd say to you Rory is how many times have you heard Mark on air speechless?

Very few. I mean he does a lot of broadcasting with you, which is impressive This was one of those moments Yeah, it's probably about half one on Saturday afternoon. If you've had to go here's a brilliant trailer You can go back and listen on BBC Sounds. I'm sure you can find out on social media Somewhere as well. I'm not going to repeat the horse that was tipped to me by Ian Dennis and I still don't know how they get away with naming that horse as they do. And it ran in the Lincoln. Let's talk move away from the horse racing. And we'll talk we'll talk FA Cup but we'll talk Cup football in general. When you look at Cup football now, Joe,

do you think it has had a resurgence even since you stopped playing in England? Yeah, I really, really enjoyed yesterday. We were part of the FA Cup at Preston. I think just because the lack of dominance, especially of the inverted commas the big clubs you know everyone getting opportunities earning opportunities doing so well storylines developing obviously Newcastle winning recently there's so

much going on and nothing is a is a foregone conclusion not that it ever was because I played at that level and you really have to earn your trophies but this year especially it just feels it feels wild and that's why with the New Castle celebrations as well Rory, I just wanted to open it up on cup football in general to start with before looking at the FA Cup. Yeah, I think what we saw in Newcastle over the weekend is surely that's an advert for every other team. Other than, and I'm with Joe, I find it slightly odd, I don't quite know how to refer to the teams that we mean, but everyone knows the teams we mean, the teams that are always in final.

Let me give you an indication. Five teams have accounted for 31 of the last 36 FA Cup titles. So what we're talking about is Liverpool, both Manchester clubs, Arsenal and Chelsea. Yeah, and that's unhealthy. It's unprecedented in football history. It used to be a lot more democratic than that, it used to be that level of domination was basically unthinkable. It's not healthy, it gets boring, it's boring for fans of the teams that aren't there, it's

boring to an extent for fans of the teams that are there, it kind of takes away a lot of the magic. It's not boring for the teams that are there. I don't know it's boring and to be honest it's expensive I think. Like going to Wembley all the time costs a load of money so boring to move the wrong word. It takes the sheen off a little bit. I think if you've been to seven semi-finals in seven years by the time you go into the eighth you're probably thinking oh being through you know it's not quite as magical. But it's

mainly you've got to remember that most people don't support those clubs. Most people support all of the other teams. And I think what we've seen this year is, in Newcastle, a brilliant advert for why the rest of the Premier League in particular should be going for those tournaments. But also, if you look at the lead table, that kind of scrum for fourth and fifth,

there are more and more teams who are able to take advantage of slips or difficult draws for the established elite. They are ready and able to compete for these trophies and that's really important. It's good for everybody. For me, I think that the way some Premier League clubs have treated the cup competitions in previous seasons, they've felt somewhat secondary competitions and not the most important.

But I think maybe Newcastle winning it and the scenes we saw the party they had, you know, up there 300,000 fans out on the streets, it does change people's perception towards the importance of the cup competitions. And they do say, I don't know what it is, but they do seem to be back now as primary competitions. I think we went through a period where, for whatever reason, they just didn't seem so important. Can I just quibble with that logic a little bit? Just a tiny, tiny, tiny quibble? I mean, you never normally ask. Is it because Joe's hairy? Do you feel like you need to be a bit more respectful today? It's been an international break. You want to play your way back in a little bit.

I'm loving the quibble. What's the quibble? Well I tell you what, if you're having problems with what a quibble is, wait till you hear some of the other words he comes up with over the next couple of weeks. Is he a bamboozler? Oh my word. Is he a bamboozler? Yeah, the quibble is minor, but you quite often hear that logic that Chris has just kind of said, which is that the big teams have kind of undermined the prestige of the FA Cup.

I'm not sure that you can say that and have it be consistent with the idea that they've dominated to the extent they've won 31 of the last 36 semifinals, whatever it was so If you look at the last few years of FA Cup semifinals, both Manchester clubs have been there consistently I think the semifinals last year obviously Semifinals the year before year before that I think Leicester Chelsea and City were all there year before that You had I think Leicester, Chelsea and City were all there. Year before that, you had... Arsenal won it I think the year before that. You know, Arsenal went through that spell in the kind of,

in the 2010s where they won the FA Cup three times in four years. Those teams have taken it seriously. They have rotated in games, but they've had the squads to do it. You know, you've had fringe players in inverted commas who are internationals, who, you know, managers need to keep happy. I think what's changed in this season maybe the last couple of seasons is that that kind of mid table in the Premier League

Have got closer to those big teams So they've been able to keep you know to take advantage of any slips and also they've got The squads that enable them to compete with them in one-off games I think that's the difference the issue for a long time has been that the mid-table Premier League teams have looked at what the the Champions League sides are doing and thought, well, in that case, we're not interested either, whereas now it feels like they are bothered. Yeah, I thought I was going to need to quibble your quibble there, but... But actually you got to exactly what I was going to say.

It's a misconception, I think, that people don't try in the Cups, but you have squads for a reason, and as you were talking about before, I think that people don't try in the Cups but you have squads for a reason and as you were talking about before I think previously a mid table team wouldn't necessarily have the strength in depth but I think now the Premier League is incredible I think with it being five substitutes now that means that you really have to have five people on your bench who are going to impact if not change the game which means that you're gonna have to have more than that because you need to allow for injuries and suspensions.

So people's benches are so, so strong right the way down the league. So it allows, yes, people who aren't necessarily being picked week in, week out in the Premier League, but they really do get opportunities and they can be sold opportunities to come to the Premier League. They're not necessarily in a contract or a conversation with the manager now. It wouldn't be, I expect to start every week. The conversations of you're going to get this certain amount of time, you're going to be able to give and I'm going to give you the chance to prove yourself and the rotation.

Like I say, the five subs has changed everything. With the league being so strong in terms of financially and also the quality in it, I think that's taken the level right up. Like you say, it's not necessarily household names that are starting, but these are really exciting talents. And with how you can do your research on football nowadays, people know who these players are and they can't wait to see them.

When you look at the semi-finalists here, we're gonna talk Chris Piers in particular in a moment, but Pallis have never won the FA Cup, but this is their second semi-final in four years. Villa, last one, is in 57, Forrest in 59. If you go back to you winning the 2011 FA Cup with Manchester City which was huge at the time as the first trophy for a very very long time and changing

perception but changing atmosphere and the buzz you must have had in the semifinal let alone the final. Honestly I know there'll be a lot of haters looking at that Newcastle celebration, a lot of people saying you've won the League Cup, like calm down, but no, absolutely not. That was an incredible moment for that city, incredible moment for that football club. And you know, a huge football club, a football club that you know, many people second teams if you're not a Geordie and not from Sunderland obviously. But Manchester City, when we did that, when we won that first trophy, which we're all very accustomed to doing now, Manchester City win, as Roy was saying, people are slightly

bored of going to semi-finals because they're just that used to going down to Wembley. But that emotion that went on, especially in the semi-final to beat Manchester United and then go on and win that trophy, it felt like everything. The emotion that came out from right the way down the city supporters, from the brand new ones to the guys who haven't experienced it in so many years and been through the leagues. Like we had an open top bus parade.

We went through the streets. We ended up at the stadium. It was one of the greatest things. We sold the stadium out just to come and be presented after winning that FA Cup. And it was one of the greatest things we sold the stadium out just to come and be presented after winning that FA Cup and it was one of the best feelings in my football career so the joy that can bring them what potentially for a Palace or a Forest or an Aston Villa team what they've got potentially around the corner for them is unbelievable. That's the other thing

isn't it Chris for Palace and Villa and Forest that was gonna be my next point that Joe made which is they must look at what's happening in UK as I think and it would be on differing scales depending on which of those clubs it is, but they would have something similar. Yeah, I mean absolutely my club Forrest, Mark, and their season, who could have imagined them third in the Premier League. And it was interesting, the conversation we've just had about rotation in squads, Nuno Espirito Santo didn't go as strong as he could have done at the weekend, left the langer out, left Hudson O'Doy out of the team. I thought that that was a really strange move in terms of what's at stake. Crystal Palace you've mentioned.

You look back through FA Cup history, Palace have never won a trophy. I think the last trophy they won was the full Members Cup. You wouldn't be having a bus parade around South London for the full Members Cup, would you? But they are engraved in some of the Ian Wright semi-final when he came on against Manchester United. The final, the 3-3 and then Lee Martin scored in the replay, didn't he? So they do have a cup history, but if they could get over the line and win it, it's not impossible. They play Villa, Villa of struggle against Palace this season. I don't think they've beaten them. Palace knocked them out of the League Cup as well, didn't they? They thumped them last time out at Selhurst Park 4-1. So Villa will not be looking forward

to that. But the whole Villa story, the whole story there, Champions League football, you know, we're now into April, nearly nearly Champions League football fighting in the Premier League near the top and then an FA Cup semi-final backing up what they did last season it's amazing. Let's talk to Sean Derry because we're going to talk Crystal Palace and our former Palace player coach assistant manager welcome Sean how are you long time no see you well? Yeah I am yeah good evening everyone good to see you. Thank you very much for coming on. What do you think makes them so good at the moment? It's a great question. For me, I just think they've got a brilliant way of handling their defensive side of the game. There's such a threat on the attack. John Motetta has been brilliant for them, not just this year, but end of last year when they had that great run of form when Oliver Glasner came in. You've got a centre forward there,

you've got people like Ebereche Eze who just loves playing off a big kind of old fashioned centre forward. But defensively, full backs, love defending. Mitchell was brilliant in his 1v1s, Munoz on the other side loves to join in and attacks the back post. He's just got a fantastic balance. And I think that's all come to light after a really troublesome opening 10 games of the season. And the stats, back up everything that you've just said there because... And this is where you can take all Leaf stats, all style of play. We had a debate yesterday, didn't we, about style of play Joe, when it comes to playing

out from the back. But Sean, Palliser, 19th in pass completion percentage, 18th in the number of passes completed, 17th for average possession. But when you talk about defending and when you talk about their work ethic and how they like to counter press, they're third in tackles one. That's how they operate. Well they do, and those that watch the game at the weekend, the amount of balls that came into the box from wide areas, people like Chris Richards who's a shining light at this moment in time,

has took advantage. I mean, you've got to recognise that they sold Joachim Andersen in the summer, and everyone thought that would be a massive loss to Crystal Palace. And Joachim's a great player, brilliant player, but it gives opportunities, doesn't it, for other players? And Chris Richards has taken it. Alongside him is Mark Gaye, who I just think is a fantastic player anyway. But all five of them. And I was just joining the chat really late there,

but Oli Glas has not made too many changes in that setup. He's got his settled team now. And I think he actually changed his goalkeeper for this one as well. So that's a recognition of how they've taken this competition very seriously. The start of this season, you mentioned not too many changes. Anderson went, Alise went, Saar coming in, Lacroix coming in as a replacement for Anderson. But can you sort of give a reason why they had such a lethargic start to the season, really? And now they're hitting form, of course, but it's quite odd when you look at the impact he made at the end, won six out of the last seven games, thrash-filler on the final day, and then the slow start this season with the

same group of players essentially? Yeah, absolutely Chris. I mean, of course they made changes in the summer as well, brought in Eddie and Ketia and I think they tried to find a place for Eddie and they played him more on the left hand side and the loss of Elise was massive. He was a brilliant player. That last seven or eight games with Imane, causing havoc, you know, and bouncing off, like I just said, Mateta. But I think they tried to find a position for Eddie and Keti and then, listen, as ruthless as the game is, sometimes you've just got to pick the right players for the right system. So Eddie, unfortunately for him, found his way out the team. When I was

at Wolves earlier on in the season, we played them at home and ended up drawing the game 2-2. It was a very different team looking back then to what this most recent Crystal Palace team looks like. I watched that game actually, Chris, the 4-1 home game where they beat Aston Villa. But seeing them on that day, I think Aston Villa have got a very tough opponent in the semi-final. The point Joe about he relies on quite a close group of players does Oliver Glass and I was talking to someone who works in football recruitment analytics there just about Palace's recruitment and how their squad is put together and built and they said to me they seem to rely on a robust core group of about 16 heavily used players, including seven top tier athletes.

So that would be about the minimum required to remain competitive in the Premier League. That's 16. Going forward, and we're maybe jumping ahead of ourselves a bit, it's how they add to that group, but Glasgow might not, might only want to really rely on a small number like Guardiola does. Yeah, that's the, the stick or twist moment, isn't it? And that's where they want to go as a team and what they want to achieve. They've shown what they can achieve when they've got the players that they want and everyone's fit and everyone's on board. It sounds like Oliver Glasner has got them playing the way that they want, you know, for them to be so

low in certain stats, but be successful. That is a huge, huge sign that they want. For them to be so low in certain stats but be successful, that is a huge, huge sign that they're a very good team. There's different ways of being a good team and what I'm trying to say is they're together, they're all totally comfortable, they're not looking in that... If you're in that mid-bracket of passing and turnovers, then you're kind of not one nor the other. They're very committed, very much like Nottingham Forest to how they're playing the game and they've got everyone on board. But when you take on more players and you know we talked about having bigger squads and stronger squads and bringing more players in, you know Eddie and Ketier, Sean just talked about, there's a great example.

It's really difficult and it was such a great moment for him to score that important third goal at the weekend because you need everyone firing and everyone chipping in so it's not just the Eze show, so it's not just the Mateta show, it needs other people chipping in and having their moments and that's what, when you're in that mid-table kind of bracket, that's how you go to the next level and it's recruitment and it's really, really important. And recruitment, Shaun, has been in the main an outstanding success for Crystal Palace. Even the ones like Saloth who didn't necessarily work out a Palace has gone on to actually succeed elsewhere and been the player that maybe Palace thought they were signing. And

that a lot of that comes down to to Dougie Friedman and how he operates. Yeah I mean recruitment and Crystal Palace seem to go hand in hand. I mean I think they've been exceptional in terms of where they've found their players. I mean, they've gone to mainly the championship, you know, mentioning Adam Wharton. You know, I'm a massive fan of Wharton, I think he's a brilliant player. And again, maybe their recent success has come because of his return. You know, he spent a little bit of time away from the football club. But if you look at the recruitment, they've been quite inventive. And I say that obviously because recruitment

now is worldwide, isn't it? And there's many players from further afield, but a lot of the successes of Crystal Palace have been from the championship. And it's a great market. And they've really looked into that through Dougie Friedman's, his own experiences by maybe being an ex-manager at one or two other clubs who have come across players in his time as manager as well. But I think the recruitment team's really tight at Crystal Palace. I don't think it's as big as some of the other Premier League clubs. Sean, just when it comes to recruitment, and we talk about Crystal Palace. How do they operate?

Because they're trying to build, it sounds like he's trying to build a strong core and a team that you can rely on and then he can add to it. But the thing is, if you do well at Crystal Palace and you show yourself in the Premier League, people are coming calling and they're gonna be giving prices

that they can't turn down. So does that recruitment have to be so, so fluid? And do you need contingency plan after contingency plan? Well, it's like anything. I mean, even at the clubs like you play that Joe right at the top of the tree, you know, you're not going to get them all right. Oh yeah. You know, they're not, it's not an absolute defined science this. Um, but I think Dougie and his team,

and I mentioned the closeness around the people that he, he worked with. Um, of course he's gone now or seems to be on his way. But I think it's like maybe six or seven really close confidants there. And they do go out, they do the legwork, they go and not just see everything over the screens and data now. It's seeing what their characters are like. I know Dougie's big on characteristics of the players. So I think you have to be a certain type

to come into the football club at Crystal Palace. And listen, I like that. I like that as a coach and an ex-player now and seeing it's so important that you get the right people inside the building. It just seems with Palace particularly that it's all aligned. That's the thing that kind of unites all of those teams

that we look at from that mid-tier of the Premier League, the ones who suddenly kind of start to do things and catch the eye. It's that you have Glasner who wants to play like a front foot counter-attacking style, that kind of high intensity football, and you go and find players, young players, maybe something to prove, wanting to take that step up, players for whom playing for Palace is an honor rather than a step back. And it all kind of works perfectly in harmony, that Palace have worked out where they exist in the ecosystem and they're benefiting from that.

That's the impression you get with Palace now. Well, I think any Palace fan listening to the show tonight will easily accept that they're not a top-16, so they're not gonna get the best players, are they, at the football club? So you've got to be inventive and you've got to be creative about what type of players come in. And you're right, you know, Rory, I guess, listen, it might take a slight change now that Dougie's not going to be at the helm, you know, whoever the new sporting director's going to be, whether that's going to be Ian Moody for the long term, or whether that's going to be somebody who maybe Oliver Glasner brings in.

That would be interesting to see what type of change that develops Crystal Palace going forward. But for what's taken place at the time, the nine years that Dougie was there, I think he was pretty intent on what type of person came in first and foremost. Shaun, you spoke about Palace being happy to recruit from the championship. Do you think there are Premier League clubs out there who, for whatever reason, ignore the championship and go abroad? Do you think there's a snobbery in that respect?

It's a great point, Chris. I do. I still think there's some brilliant players in the respect. It's a great point Chris, I do. I still think there's some brilliant players in the championship. There's some wonderful young ones. We spoke about Adam Watt and Eberechi Eze, speaking solely for Crystal Palace. But I watch the championship pretty regularly, you guys as well. And you'll see there's some, if you were to place certain players into a Premier League football club and just give them that time to adapt to certain things in the Premier League, I still think there's superstars in there.

And you've got to call Eber Eczerzi as a superstar. And he's had so many knockbacks, hasn't he? I think he's had seven or eight clubs that turned him down, Chris. And, yeah, I think it's a brilliant market. Time's... I've seen... sorry, sorry. I've seen some of the, I've seen a lot of foreign players at certain clubs. And I just think, and I'm not knocking because there's some brilliant, brilliant players,

but certain players will come into certain football clubs and just feel like this is where I need to be. This is like, well, no, this is where I should be. I should be at a Premier League club. I should be in the top six. And it's, it's kind of a foregone conclusion that that's where their career is going to go and it's, it's not like that it football was football was not a given like that.

It definitely isn't. Time is the interesting point, isn't it? Sean, because you probably can only be in maybe, well, you tell me from all of your experiences, you know, coaching in the Premier League, you probably can only be in maybe, well you tell me from all of your experiences coaching in the Premier League, but you can only be maybe in five or six spots in the Premier League that would be considered comfortable whereby you could give someone time. It might be sort of, I don't know, 14th to 9th or something, whereby, all right, well you're not going to go down, you're probably not going to make Europe. So there maybe is a bit more time to be patient. But

in any of the others, you don't get that time to develop them, do you? Well, you don't. And I look at clubs like Palace, I look at clubs like them. And how often are they in a privileged position in the Premier League where maybe they're going to be three or four goals to the good? It's not very often they're in them positions and it's difficult for young players to come into football clubs when the pressure's on you every single week. First and foremost, Palestine in the Premier League is what they set out to do every single year. They've done that for the last nine or 10 years. How difficult has it been for them to break into the top six, top seven? It's so hard. And up until this, you know, I know three or four years ago there was a semi-final against Chelsea that Palace

lost when I was there then. But it's not very often a club like Palace goes into the latter stages of cup competitions as well, where you can give opportunities to young players breaking through. Sean thank you very much for coming on appreciate it Sean Derry with us on the Monday Night Club. Women's Football Weekly on the Football Daily. I'm Ben Haynes. I'm Ellen White and I'm Jen Beatty and on Tuesdays on the Football Daily we bring you the Women's Football Weekly. We dive headfirst into all things WSL and beyond in the women's game. Wanting to compete, wanting to be there, wanting to push yourself, knowing what the right things are for your body. That's something that's just been drilled in us from a young age and we've just kept it for a long, long time.

Women's Football Weekly, only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC Sounds. The Football Daily podcast with Mark Chapman. Let's talk Arsenal and their sported director. So they have a new one in Andrea Berta. Let's hear from Mikhail Arteta on the appointment. Well, you just met him and straight away, it's the words that come out are always winning, improving and demanding. He's a person, very honest, very straightforward, very clear vision of

what he wants to do. He was so willing to join us, which is a very positive thing as well because he had many other possibilities and he's chosen to come to us. Now it's about us giving him the support and understanding of the situation and context straight away. For him to start to do what he's already done for many, many years at the highest level, which has been very impressive. He's got that experience, he's got this personality as well as this charisma and this drive and will to win that is going to be very contagious. He's very much installed in the football club, especially from the top because this is what we want to achieve. But to have people with

different experiences and that they've already done it is very, very helpful. Mikel Arteta on Arsenal's new sporting director Andrea Berta, Chris Sutton, Joe Hart, Rory Smith on the Monday night club. We focus immediately, don't we Joe, when talking about these roles. And we did a little bit when Richard Hughes moved from Bournemouth to take over at Liverpool of who they might sign, who they might bring in. What's interesting is Saka, Saliba, Gabriel all going into the last two years of their contracts this summer. So there are other elements of trying to put this squad together, keep this squad, build this squad that also need attention. From your experience in the game, is it hard to bring in players in or hard to keep in them do you think? I think bringing players in, keeping them, you've got them in the building, you can have

the right conversations with them, you can give them their value, you can have the different ways of getting at them in terms of conversation, you can pull on them emotionally from all different angles. Getting people in the building to come and believe in a project that they don't know about is tougher. Everyone in that Arsenal building looks very united, they seem like they're on the same page. Saka, Saliba obviously, so so important, so so important in what they're trying to do and that's an easy sell. Bringing someone else in to say, we're bringing you in and the people that they're going to be trying to bring in will be wanted by Manchester City, they

will be wanted by Liverpool, Real Madrid because that's the level of player they want. It's convincing them that they're the missing piece of the puzzle to bring greatness back to Arsenal again. Rory what do you make of it? I think it's a bit weird how much we kind of fetishise sporting directors, to be perfectly honest. But if they're in charge, if they are responsible for bringing players, depending on what their defined role is within the club, if they are in charge of the recruitment, then they are going to be fetishised, aren't they?

They are. It's natural, just transfers are such a fixation for so many people. I think if you go back in the last, I don't know, the last 20 years when English football became kind of familiar with sporting directors, they've had them in Italy and Spain for a lot longer, but there are maybe half a dozen examples of people who've done well at one club and moved to another club and also done well. It doesn't happen very often. It's a really tricky thing to do. And if you look at what Bertha had done at Atletico Madrid, it's really impressive. You know, Santiago Oblak, he signed Rodri, he signed Griezmann, although I'm

not sure that is that impressive. Just Griezmann had been amazing for Real Sociedad and everyone knew about him. You know, these aren't, they're not like hidden gems. They were elite prospects, but he got the deals over the line. He spotted them. He helped Simeone put a team together. I'm a little bit reluctant to say that actually now, because Andrea Berta has come to Arsenal, that actually that entire Eto Tocomet regeneration, that's just Andrea Berta rather than Diego Simeone. I suspect it's more to do with Simeone. But my question is, I'm sure he's really well connected, he's really well thought of, like

a lot of people, he's got a great hit list. I think if you look at his list of misses, there's probably quite a few on there as well. My sort of skepticism is always, can you do it in a totally different context, a different environment when you're looking for a different type of player? This Arsenal team aren't that similar

to Atletico Madrid. They're not entirely dissimilar, but it's not the same profile of player. I think that the benefit for Arsenal is obvious that he is a deal maker, Bertha is someone who is well connected to help them land those, like Joe was saying, those top tier targets which maybe they have missed out on a little bit in recent years. I don't think he's like a Dan Ashworth style systems guy. I don't think he's going to be interested, you know, talking about workplace culture as much as Ashworth

does. I think it is about getting deals over the line, that's why he's going to be talking about workplace culture as much as Ashworth does. I think it is about getting deals over the line. That's why he's been brought in. What I don't quite understand is Mikel Arteta had something to do with this appointment, didn't he? As far as I'm aware he did. I always thought it was the sporting director who sort of had the say on the manager. Does this not muddy the waters at Arsenal? It doesn't bit. And Arteta's power now is so great, isn't it, that a sporting director has been caught in.

It sounds like it's more of a partnership, doesn't it? But also, logically, you can't... Like, Edu leaves for a new opportunity. That's obviously... That wasn't in Arsenal's plan. They've had to adapt to that situation. And you can't go and appoint someone without consulting the manager. It would be insane. You have to give him a...

Maybe not a veto, but you have to run it by him and make sure that they click as people. Because like Chepa says, they have to be able to work together. You don't want a Dortmund situation where Thomas Tuckerell and Sven Mislintat have to get people to pass messages to the other ones, they're refusing to speak to each other. That's not ideal. You want two people who can get along. So I don't think Arthett has kind of, I don't think he's pitched Berta for the job, but he's obviously given it his seal of approval and that I think is probably fair enough. But is that, so I don't quite understand the way everything so is that the way it works

abroad as well then? No, ordinarily the sporting director is the person who's in place for longer so if you're an Italian manager you're changing jobs every two to three weeks, the sporting director stays at the club and appoints the manager and then the manager leaves and the sporting director appoints another one and eventually after like nine failed managers someone might go this sporting director is not very good let's get a new one and yes but it is an unusual circumstance for Arsenal because of Edu leaving. Ordinarily the sporting director is the one who is in place for much longer.

So that's not a case of a situation where Arteta has been at Arsenal for a long time he can have now, that's the way I view it, he can have too much power in that respect. Yeah, and that is something that has been floated previously, that one of the reasons that Edu maybe wanted to look elsewhere was because of the sense that Arteta was the driving force in transfers. But I don't know of any club really where it's that old-fashioned way where it's just one person's opinion and then the scouting department and the lawyers and stuff just

kind of do what the manager tells them. I am sure Andrea Bertu will have input into the recruitment process, but I think he's been brought in much more as someone to give them that kind of presence in those big deals, a respected kind of voice around European football. I think that is his appeal more than anything. Well, you've both kind of poo-pooed that appointment, haven't you? Really? No, not really. Well, you weren't that, you weren't that. Okay.

What were we meant to say? You've honest... I'm meant to get like a staff with Andrea Berta's name on it because he's a sporting director. But I might get you that for Christmas Rory. It's what his role is as the sporting director, isn't it? Which is the issue. And I don't know, but eventually what if Arteta starts next season, they're Arsenal fans who, I think they've been really consistent under Arteta, but there may come a point when Arsenal have a dip over the next couple of seasons.

And then, you know, the sporting director, someone who Arteta has helped bring in, is he going to be one then who can distance himself that and then go to the club hierarchy and say, well, I think we should go down a different route with the manager? I don't know. Chris, I would say yes, he has to come in. Like, and I agree with Rory, it's such knowing what I know about sporting directors and how they're coming in, they're very much the guys that are doing the hiring and firing. So it's, it's, it's a strange one because our tetta is so set at the club. And usually the sporting director would be alongside or if not have

been appointed and work, work that way. But Edu leaving has put them in a really funny, funny situation because they need a new sporting director. They can't just bring one in behind Mikhail Arteta's back because they're all so united and so committed to him. The whole club's committed. The hierarchy is committed. So they have to ask for his say. So it's a really, I think it's an unusual circumstance,

but definitely if push came to shove, I don't think the sporting director would be paid he's not being paid to to be close he's being paid to make those big decisions to hire and fire. I think that's absolutely right and Chris is right it isn't it isn't ideal but is having a sporting director who probably doesn't want to fire the manager a bad thing it's probably that strikes me as being a fair you know that's a reasonable price to pay that should probably be your stance shouldn't it? It should be but there's no fair there's no fairness in football especially at the top, absolutely none. There's

cut throat decisions being made for the benefit of the business stroke football club. Have you ever been anywhere where someone's done the right thing then and put it above business? No. Okay. And I don't expect them to. Do you not? I love the game for that. I love the game. The fairness is right the way down in Sunday

League respectfully, where there's no money on the table, people are playing for the better team to win. But you cannot get away from the fact we're sat here talking about football because it's an incredible business that goes globally. So much money involved, so many businesses involved. And why should it be treated any differently to any higher end multi-billion pound industry? See that's recognition of my Sunday League experience there from Joe. There you go see after all this time my pub football anecdotes actually matter sometimes when it comes to fair play and everything Chris. Yeah I didn't know you played as high as Sunday, Lee. But I disagree with Joe on the point that people can be influenced by emotion in those

moments. If Arteta played a part of bringing him in, he may feel differently if he has to make a decision on it. It may cloud his judgment. Cloud his judgment. If push came to shove, Chris, where do you think he's backing? Arteta or his job? Yeah, that's what it comes down to isn't it?

Fair enough. With Forrest going through on penalties, we had a discussion on the football yesterday after the FA Cup game about penalties as well Joe. But Nottingham Forrest and their goalkeepers, so they've gone through in the FA Cup on three consecutive penalty shootouts. Matt Sells, Carlos Miguel and Matt Turner, their goalkeeping group, are training separately with the goalkeeping coach, and they're wearing dark glasses that are specially designed to improve reaction speed, which I'm told is something you have used, tried, aware of.

I've tried, and look, let's not get twisted here. They're definitely not doing that all the time and there's moments when Football is moving on and and goalkeeping believe it or not I know no one cares about goalkeeping Chris I can see you rolling your eyes already when we disappear off to the other side of the training ground stuff is actually going on to try and improve us and The modern day they just constantly they've gone of the days Are you just taking six volleys

and coming over and being the guy that's not necessarily that athletic. So you're trying to constantly push it. Move, move, move. That still happens in pub football. Well, that's all right. Yeah, just to keep stopping our experiences, Joe. But yeah, for the likes of noise canceling,

taking away your balance, taking away your visually impairing yourself, so that the reason that you do it is you're not constantly in goal wandering around trying to recreate not having good eyesight. It's so that when you can do a certain amount of reps with that being impeded, that when you take it off, the freedom and how it feels is unbelievable. It's absolutely, you know, I've trained with, you know, weighted foot medicine balls coming at you and the weight of it, the pure weight of it, catching, catching,

and then you get rid of it and you catch a football, you feel like a superhero. The ball just feels so light and you feel so strong, but it's just little bits, little, little one, little one percents that you're trying to bring into your game. So would they be doing that like just the day before a game? So that if it then, so that their reaction speed is then in, or is it over a period of time? It really depends what kind of a goalkeeper Matt sells is and how he likes to prepare because it ultimately be down to the one. Now if it was someone my age say for instance last year I wouldn't be bringing that in because it would be very much alien to what I'm trying to do

and if I'd say to the goalie coach we've got three four days and you want to try something we discuss it and we go through and we'd work on it. But if you're a modern day goalie, a 22, 23 year old goalkeeper, they'd have probably done that in the academies and things like that. So you'd be able to input it and it wouldn't necessarily knock them out of kilt, the new idea and the new reflexes and actually the positive that comes from it. So it depends where your mindset's at. You really need to understand the mindset of your goalkeeper, how you're gonna work with him. But I very much doubt that he'll be doing that the day before. So would you have, does it depend,

also depends on the stage of your career presumably. And would you say you were, were you more open-minded earlier on in your career or were you more open-minded towards the end of your career? I'd say ridiculously open-minded at the start of my career. I'm more open-minded at the end of my career? I'd say ridiculously open-minded at the start of my career. I'm more open-minded at the end of my career than I was in the middle. In the middle wasn't necessarily the finest part of my career. So it was a moment where I just wanted to be solid.

I wanted to be organised. I wanted to know what I knew. But the start of my career, young, happy to do anything, I wanted to go anywhere. All I wanted to do was save shots. Just kick the ball at me. I don't care. We put a wall, put people in front. I'm to go anywhere. All I wanted to do was save save shots. Just kick the ball at me I don't care. We put a wall put people in front of our bodies I've had all sorts in front of me But not a problem dying to save that football towards the end a little bit different not

Overly keen to be diving around as much as I was but still open-minded to that to take in that the games changed the games moving My my speed isn't quite there how I wanted it to be. We often hear that players going in and by the way the discussion that we had on penalties on the telly yesterday is on the BBC Sport website that you can watch back but we often talk about teams practicing their penalties ahead of shootouts from a goalkeeping point of view do you get your teammates to take different types of penalties do you get your teammates to take different types of penalties? Do you get them to try and take them like the opposition you're going to face, having

studied how they take penalties? How does a goalkeeper prepare for a shootout bar looking at a water bottle and seeing which way each taker goes? Because that's the only thing we're aware of. Like the view in public, that's the only thing we're aware of. And as far as saving the penalties, you can go classroom with that. You can go discussions with the other goalkeepers, you can go discussions with your strikers. That's a discussion. I think learning-wise, you can practice it. You can practice, say I would say to my goalie coach, I want to practice a stuttered penalty.

I want someone to take a stuttered penalty. So you bring in a young lad and ask him to do, or or you say I want you to smash it as hard as you can to the bottom right corner because that's where I believe the penalty is going to go and I want to I'm going to hold my ground for as long as I can and then explode all different styles different techniques but when it comes to the team who are practicing I've got to be fully on board with the team so I've got to say look I'm going to be for, I'm going to be if I'm Brighton that week, I'm the Brighton, I'm the Bruggen, and I'm not working on me saving penalties, I'm going to do my best to help them. I'm going to say, I'm going to be Matt Sells. This is what I've noticed about him. Third or fourth penalty, he might

stay down the middle. Be aware of that. When he does go early, you're going to have to beat me really, really hard because I'm going to dive big to my right. So let's practice. You beat me as hard as you can to your right and have those sort of open conversations of how you want to work. And there will be some players, you know, I don't know how you were, Chris, who would be like, I've got no interest in what you've got to say. I'm going to take my penalty. I would imagine he was. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's fine. And that's fine. If he's as comfortable as he can be when he's from 12 yards, because I don't care whether it's me that's helped or he's done it all as long as my team wins and as long as they feel as comfortable as they can in that situation I think you've got to explore every single angle and there's a very basic question the Matt sells penalty save from the one that was absolutely blasted at him yep does that hurt no oh okay no it feels awesome does it oh whataving it however, the harder it hits you and you save it the better it feels in my opinion. Why are you laughing Chris?

It's a mental mindset. I know it's a lot of good questions, but that was a really My first thought is he saved that was how's he not how's he not kind of just rung his hand like that as he's walked back Oh goal goalkeepers. I mean they have gloves, they have all sorts of tape on. Had that hit him in the nose, then it might have hurt. That was a brilliant save. That really was. Top save, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's a plan coming together, Chris, that it might look like he just stood there and hoped for the best, but that would have been talked about, that penalty. It would have been hold your nerve, stay strong strong and be ready to save it in and around you because he's going to wallop it. Honestly, your expertise on this, I don't want to embarrass you by saying this, but the list of players that you've saved penalties from is absolutely ridiculous, isn't it? I'm happy, yeah, it's a good list. Lionel Messi, Wayne Rooney, Zlatan, Griezmann and Ronaldinho.

And Fabregas and Lampard. and there's a couple of others in there. What was the Messi one? Can you remember it? I can't remember saving Lionel Messi's penalty. Yes I can remember it. Yes I can remember it. Are you kidding me? Yes I can remember it.

I think you have played it quite cool. Oh my god. One of the best playing it quite cool. Oh my God. Oh my God. One of the best moments of my life. Go on then. No, so it's all set. Okay. We've been getting pumped.

It's a good Barcelona team. I think it's, I think it's two, one at the Etihad and it was late, very late in the competition, in the game with the away leg coming and penalty got given. Can't remember why. And he stepped up the great man, tried to hold my ground, gave it the little tap. I dived to my left and it just went, I went too big. Don't know why. It was, must be one of those moments where he was being human,

because it wasn't a great penalty. And I saved it back to him and I was laying on the floor watching, thinking, and he did a diving header and he nodded it wide. And I've got up and celebrated it because and I know Chris you're definitely not a big fan of this but a goalkeeper celebrating we were 2-1 down as well but I had to forget the moment I was in and just remember who I was and what I was doing and that was a massive moment in my life. Wow brilliant, brilliant.

Look at Chris's face. That is brilliant you didn't celebrate like in his face though. Oh no I went no I would never ever disrespect the great man. It was just a pure joy of a kid with goalie gloves on. You don't get a moment as a goalie, do you? Let's be honest. You know, do it on people's shoe, but yeah, I say the MSC's penalty, what? Brilliant. Remarkably, our final guest has hung on to talk to us.

And I'm surprised he's given us the time to talk to us as he is football's busiest man because it was announced this afternoon that Brian Graham alongside Mark Wilson will remain in charge of part of Thistle until the end of the season. But Brian is also the club captain, the top goalscorer and manages the women's team. Did you have to think twice then Brian about taking on the men as well? Just a little bit. I had the responsibility. I mean look, Partick evidently just runs through your blood, does it? I'm local enough. I actually grew up watching that man on your screen, Chris Sutton, play for Celtic as a young kid. But then it was a family decision when I was at Ross County

to come back down the road and partake first for 10 minutes for the ground and everything just fitted in. Eugene McCall was the manager at the time and he said to me, you're 32 years of age, why don't you start thinking about management? Take the women's team on and I didn't have any coaching badges at the time and I thought it was a great time

and to go through my coaching badges, get great experience as being a manager while I was still playing and it's really worked out that way because the girls team have went from strength to strength, had two top six finishes, we've also got to a cup final and now we find ourselves taking care of the men's side as well because results haven't gone our way. Myself and Mark are now six unbeaten, but we still need to secure the playoff spot because we've still got aspirations of potentially getting to the Premier League. I was going to say, you are taking over quite a crucial part of the season. It's not like you've got nothing on the men's side. It's not like you've got nothing to play for. No, it's all to play for and I think that Saturday's result down at Carpool, it's one

of the toughest venues in the Championship to go there and get a result. So it was very pleasing to come away there with a 1-0 victory. We've only conceded two goals in the sixth game, myself and Markov took charge as well. So we changed the shape to a 3-5-2 but we've also switched it to a 4-3-3 at times as well, just depending on how games are going and try to get that attacking threat at the top end of the pitch to go and try and win games of football. The championship's notoriously tough to get out of, as Parthik Fissel can realise, because we've been there for a number of years now. We came obviously close a few years ago and that story in Dingwall will never leave us. But listen, it's a new chapter. Given the players now, clarity that

myself and Mark have got the job until the end of the season, we just need to secure those play-offs and then you never know what happens once you're in there. Does this even more so tie the whole club together, men's and women's? No, I think we've been doing that over the last couple of years. I think that's something the club have been really active with. The girls come to a lot of the men's games as well and obviously when we got to the cup final the full club was there. It was obviously Chris and Paul were the management team then, they came along with the full men's team to come and support the girls in that day through at Tyncastle. So over the last couple of years we've been making it one big family and that's what it's all about

with party thistle. Brian have you had to sacrifice anything because you know the right to do the men's role the women's role to to play you know to coach to be involved in anything has something had to give yeah so obviously the women's training they train three nights a week and obviously myself and Mark there's been games we've had to go and watch opponents some training nights so my assistant Ross at the women's team is and obviously myself and Matt, there's been games where I've had to go and watch opponents some training nights, so my assistant Ross at the women's team has basically taken over training for me. I will still go in, pop in and say hello to the girls especially, we'll go and do video with them on their first night.

I go to all the games but I can't make every single training session because when you get put into this added responsibility of full-time manager's position then obviously your time gets taken and your phone doesn't stop. You need to charge it a couple of times a day because it's blown off the hook. So I cannae be everywhere at once but when the club asked me if I came in need would I come and help I was never going to say no to that. So this is what I've been building for over the last couple of years. I'm 37 years of age I can't play forever. So that's why I took the women's job on in the first place because that's where I see myself as a full-time manager. And now this is just a bit of added experience for

me as well. Such an all encompassing job though, isn't it? I mean, we talk about it a lot on the show, the role of manager and how draining it can be. No, it can be. And I'm throwing in the mix. I'm still trying to play as well. So, because obviously when we came in, there was only a couple of weeks left to the loan window left.

So we're having to go out and try and get some free agents in because we only had myself recognized striker at football club. We had Terry O'Blady on loan, but he's more of a winger. So then I had to go and try and sign a few players. So it's been really, really hectic,ctic but listen we've managed to do it and now we're

finding ourselves in a better position in regards to the playoffs. We're six points clear, the team below us with five games to go so we're in a good position. I have your weekly schedule in front of me which is on the Monday train with the men's team in the morning and afternoon, do the school run then a dog walk. Tuesday train with the men's team in the morning and afternoon, do the school run, then a dog walk. Tuesday, train with the men's team in the morning, tactical analysis with staff, attend women's training session, dog walk. Wednesday, watch upcoming opposition matches, school run, dog walk. Thursday, training with the men's team in the morning and the afternoon, press conferences for both teams, dog walk.

Friday, match day preparation, run through potential in-game situations with Mark Wilson so that we can inform the players on tactics and substitutions dog walk Saturday play and manage the men's team Sunday manage the women's team so That is hectic I'm assuming you have your own dog and aren't a dog walker as well you haven't taken on an extra job there And who's walking the dog Saturday Sunday as well you haven't taken on an extra job there. And who's walking the dog Saturday, Sunday as well? I might do that when I'm 50. How many dogs you got? Just one, he's a cocker spaniel and he's full of life. So he needs his walks. God dear oh dear, it makes me tired. He's too old for that. He's too old for that. He should be raising, I've no mention to her so I'll need to mention, I need to have time for the wife and the kids as well. Absolutely, wife and kids as well. Listen, thank you very much for coming on Brian. Good luck with everything, lovely to talk to you.

No, thanks for having me on guys, all the best, okay, thank you very much. Cheers, thank you. Joe, thank you. Thank you for having me. Memorable debut? Oh, that's the most memorable in my career. Wow, I'm honoured. Come back? Love to. Excellent. Thank you Chris, thank you Rory.