Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Transfer Deadline Day

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

All of the reaction to a very busy transfer deadline day with the Monday Night Club team. BBC Sport’s Sami Mokbel joins Mark Chapman, Joe Hart, Chris Sutton and Rory Smith to unpick all of the big deals from the last day of the window. Chris and Joe disagree about how Isak conducted himself during the window, and they look at how he’ll fit in at Liverpool. They also give their thoughts on Sunday’s top of the table clash between Liverpool and Arsenal – and Mikel Arteta’s approach to the match. And after a record spend throughout the summer transfer window, how have clubs’ approach to PSR rules changed? Has that affected Aston Villa’s approach to the final day of the window? BBC Sport’s Nick Mashiter drops by to explain why – and what might happen next for Emi Martinez. Plus – Joe gives his thoughts on Manchester United’s new keeper – and the goalkeeper situation at his former club, Manchester City.TIME CODES01:00 – Joe’s transfer deadline day move 02:55 – Changing approach to PSR? 15:35 – Where does Alexander Isak fit at Liverpool? 19:40 – Liverpool v Arsenal reaction 23:05 – Has there been an overreaction to Arsenal losing? 34:10 – Life after Isak for Newcastle 47:55 – Aston Villa 59:20 – Manchester City’s goalkeepers

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is the Monday Nightclub with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday night club at the end of a very busy transfer deadline day. Joe Hart, Chris Sutton and Rory Smith are with us alongside BBC Sports Sammy Mockball. Some of the day's big headlines, Alexander Isak has joined Liverpool for a British record fee of £125 million. Mark Gay to Liverpool is off, though. Newcastle have signed Johann Whistair from Brentford.

Victor Lindelhoff and Jaden Sancho and Harvey Elliott have joined Aston Villa. Rasmus Hoyland has gone on loan from Manchester United to Napoli. Anthony has gone to Rail Bettis. Randall Kolo Muani has joined Tottenham on a season long loan. You can get all the latest from Transfer Deadline Day on the BBC Sport website and app. Did you ever move on Deadline Day? I should have found this out there, but I've been too busy doing a last-minute dash for school uniform. Have you?

No, I can't remember. I don't think so. I can only ask you, because Deadline Day didn't exist when Chris played. It did, chappas. That's not true. It existed at the end of March. I actually don't know.

No, I don't think so. Pretty sure. Right. Okay. I've just, I've forgotten about all. Oh, no, you're just your eyes lit up at the deal sheet. That was all. No, I was wondering whether you...

It's just laughable, isn't it? Like, you just presume things need to be done by seven, and then, oh, seven comes. Well, I'm like, I don't worry about it. Seven in England, 11 in Scotland. Important to point that out, isn't it, Chris? Well, it is important, Mark. Yeah, we cover Scotland as well, which is very good. Why is that different?

I don't know. Well, for Rory's favourite... You should know, well, you should know stuff like that, really. For Rory's favourite football market, Turkey, it's mid-September. Ah, the last resort of the damned, 30. I think, Chris, that it's been brought forward. Sammy might know more about this than me, and it sounds a little bit like a conspiracy theory.

I wonder if they've brought it forward because of the deal sheets, that they've sort of figured out that the transfer window is not like written in the Bible or anything. It's just a thing we made up. So they can do it at whatever time they're like. They could shut it at like 10.30 in the morning if they wanted. And I wonder if some of the executives have got around together and thought, hang on, why are we sending these deal sheets around at half-past one in the morning? Why don't we do it during the day?

They want to get back. That's why. They don't want to work, do they? Work shy. Yeah, don't know. Do all things to do, Sammy. Well, it also keeps the coverage going for a lot longer during the evening. Why do we not know?

I'm a guest, by the way. You know, I don't know. You should be giving this to the nation explaining why the deal sheet matters. There will be a reason. Yeah, unfortunately. I'm not done my job properly. Not you. Chappers, this is all chappers.

You're a guest, are you? Rather than just part of it. You're just a humble guest. You actually did move to Torino on Deadline Day in 2016. No, I didn't. You did I? Yeah. Well, there you go.

Rory, as well as being across everything that Sammy has done today, I dipped into Sky Sports News earlier and Christian Perslow was on Sky Sports News. He made a really interesting point, I thought, which he gets a feeling that within football, PSR, squad cost, whatever it is, the mood may have turned against it, but from fans as well in a sense of this is not allowing clubs that do have money, wherever that money has come from from the owners to flex their muscle

and therefore you are seeing the same old, same old and maybe not new blood coming through. So he thinks that mood music has changed and therefore coming down the line at some point might be a change in financial rules and therefore

and this is what he was saying Liverpool may have gone big this summer in case new rules come in in a couple of years and they've beaten it. doing things exactly right by exploiting their, you know, their advantage that they have at the moment. There's definitely something that's changed this summer because I think they will just about have tipped three billion in a single summer, which has never happened before. I think

the previous best was two and a half billion in the summer of 2023. That's 500 million quid. That's quite a lot of footballers. I think there's a few kind of things around little bits of circumstantial stuff that maybe helped to explain it. I think the fact that all three promoted clubs have come up and had a go, that makes a difference to that overall spend. I think the fact that all of the big six or the traditional big six, don't want to upset anybody,

they've all gone out and said, you know, United have done 200 million on strikers. Arsenal, I think until Isaac, have got a higher net spend than Liverpool. City did all their business early. Chelsea, obviously, just continually buying people. Spurs of events

they've done quite a lot as well. They've all spent heavily, all the big kind of traditional powers. But Liverpool in particular, to go over 400 million pounds. It's astonishing, but, so Christine Persolone may well be right that they are gambling or guessing that something might change down the line. They had the PSR headroom from the previous years because, as Joe said, they didn't sign anyone last, they spent 14 million quid last summer, I think, out most.

And I also think that the way Liverpool operate, it might suggest to me that next summer will A, be a lot quieter and might see a big outgoing. Liverpool will balance the books. They're not going to be throwing money at it without thinking how, you know, they'll have an owl. So I think that, yeah, it might be that it signals some sort of change. I think broader than that, I think clubs have learned how PSR works. There's a lot of Chelsea and their methods in this transfer market.

I think a lot of people have worked out that if you keep money rolling out, if you keep churning the players, you can spend a lot more money. as long as you've got the Liverpool have sold 200 million towards a worth of players that's that's a lot of money and the other thing that I think is significant is that all of that top six especially Arsenal have worked out you need a massive squad so they're prepared to commit to it yeah now they haven't just worked that hour have they no but they Arsenal now have to play as to Liverpool two players two players in every single position of that in a way they didn't before I think the era of coaches saying I kind of want 20 players 20 senior players and maybe maybe not in including goalkeepers, I think they're gone and teams are doing what else you've done. Although 20 senior players excluding goalkeepers is two players for every position. No, but well, that's a fair

point, yeah, all right. Yeah, take that. You know what I mean, chappas, you're just being difficult. Don't let Chris get into your head, like this. Aston, Liverpool, particularly, are running at greater depth than they have previously. I've never seen Chris look so happy. You like that, didn't you? I enjoyed that. Just do your mess, Rory.

I don't know which school you went to. can I just make a point Rory's point on selling to buy is spot on is like Chelsea sign players and then flip them the next year for profit. That's the key and I'm not saying they're going to do this

but you can 100% see they've obviously signed Liam Dilap this summer. You can 100% see them I think it was for 35, 30 million quid, release clause. You can see them flipping him next season, next summer or the summer after for 60 or 70 million quid

and they'll do it and that's how they continue to buy in consecutive windows but I guess what the problem for that is for a manager is I don't know how you how you can build continuity in your squad with that I think just on that

I think Sammy's totally right but I think on that what Chelsea doing and they're the only ones who do it as far as I can tell they have players who are not there to play for Chelsea there is no question

the two most baffling deals of this window and I think they're both loans Sammy Buon and Otten and Cesar there is a group of players players who Chelsea have, and you look at Georgia Petrovich, the Bournemouth keeper, who played 20, 25 games for Chelsea last season, I think, or two seasons ago, and it's clearly a very good goalkeeper. It looks excellent for Bournemouth in his first games. I think he was brought in, but as Chelsea, you relatively cheap, 12, 15 million quid, something like that. You then raise them up, you give him European or lead down football at Strasbourg for a year, double his price. And the way PSR works is that all of the profit from the sale is booked this year. the fee that you pay is spread out over six, over five, and the book profit that you're working with is the difference in those two figures,

which means Chelsea are recording huge sums. Chelsea, I think, are in profit for transfers this season in terms of the accountancy. That's the key. So is this an era then? Are we now in an era, Chris, do you think? And look, you could pick clubs at all sorts of different levels here. You could go Liverpool spending over 400 million.

you could talk about Arsel bringing in 8. I think David Moyes said the start is Transylinda he wanted to bring in 8 to 10 and I think he's not far off that. You could look at the promoter clubs who are certainly Sunderland and Leeds

are in double figures with the players they've brought in and do you know what? You could probably go down lower leagues. I know Rexham might not be the best example of a regular championship club because of how they fund but they've gone berserk in a good way, I suppose, in the players that they brought in.

They've done it again today. This is I'm Ben Sheaf, the Coventry captain for six and a half million. Are we in an era now of clubs will flip eight to ten players in a transfer window in a summer? Yeah, well, the key thing is making sure that the players, like, you know, which come into the club, that, you know, they can sell on for a profit. And Chelsea seemed to be the masters of that. I think for the, you know, certainly for the promoted club, this season. It's sort of encouraging, in a way, for the last, you know, couple of seasons,

the promoted clubs who have come up to the Premier League have gone straight back down. You see Sunderland, the moves that they're making. I've absolutely astonished by their spending. But, blimey, you know, they've given themselves, you know, an opportunity of staying up. I think we've said before on here, the likes of Nottingham Forest and Ashton Villa spent big and ended up staying up. And that's the justification of spending big. shaking that gamble, but it does, it does seem to be, or has seemed to be a little bit different in terms of the numbers of clubs going big this summer. Yeah, I hear what everyone's saying.

And we're discussing it. I just can't work out what the issue is. If they're the rules and Chelsea are doing it, I'm not saying you've got an issue. But like we're trying to get our heads around it. Chelsea have got their heads around it. They're obviously very good businessmen. Football's great and we play the game and it's sporting and we shake hands. But it's a massive business.

And if they've worked out, you know, they've got some. of the best lawyers, some of the best people that money can buy. I'm looking at it more now of saying to you, okay, so we know what they're doing and how they're doing. From a player's point of view, okay, there are eight to ten different players coming in in the summer. We've come from previous times and Rory taught, you know, Guadiole wants to work with 18 in his squad or it's about keeping the core of the squad together, but maybe just

adding two or three. That appears to a good. So from a player's point of view now, and I said it on size it, it's a bit like, you know, you have to introduce yourself to someone every week for the first few weeks. Yeah, but to be a top player

for a long period of time, you have to adapt. You have to adjust. It changes all the time. If it means that you're going to have your best mate sat next to you for six, seven years, and you're going to share your memories

and your children and grow up together, great. But if it means that you're going to meet someone every transso window sat next year, get used to doing, making a good first impression. That's just football. You just have to be really good

at whatever's going on. And if you don't, You'll get left behind. You will get left behind. Is it a bit like a big family do where you just sometimes don't bother learning everyone's name? Well, you have to, yeah, to an extent. Before you could get, you probably had to learn

because you know you're going to have to be put in the room with them for the next 20 years. Now you're thinking, you've got nothing to the table. I'll call you, mate, and we'll get on with it. Yeah, you'll be gone, mate. Not a problem. Have you ever been to a first session of pre-season training wear someone's had to wear a name badge?

I actually thought that should happen. Towards the end of my career. because it just avoids any awkwardness the first three weeks I think name badges of what people want to be called and staff especially do you know the turnover of staff now

oh my goodness me that's the worst Joe do you have to have like a cheeky little Wikipedia of the players just to work out where you you signed from me have you did you did well there I think the top Premier League teams

maybe not but anywhere lower down yeah you make the lad across the room you're trying to work out who he is so you can Google him and say have something in common with him Yeah, that's factual, that's happening. I don't know whether this is a good example to sort of throw in about how this transfer window appears to have worked,

but Arsenal it feels at the very last minute made a move for Hincapier by Levikuzan, but that then allows them to move Kivior out to... He'll go to Porto. So that's Portugal. So he's gone to Portugal. But to all intents and purposes, you're moving out a sort of left-sided defender

who can fill a couple of roles and bringing in a left side of defender with a couple of roles, even though they may have slightly different games. Yeah, look, that's recruitment nowadays. It's not a case of, oh, we want this player. You know, that's slap down this bid for that one. Sporting directors nowadays need to be just as good at accounting than they are at spotting players.

That's just the name of the game now. That's why they're not called Chief Scouts. They call sporting directors because they need to be across the finances. They need to be across sort of the talent, identification and they also need to be across the sort of the selling element of of um of what the club need to do in each in each transfer window and you know as as i alluded to earlier i guess it doesn't it doesn't lend itself to building such a great camaraderie i guess if that you know if if if squads are being unsettled and disrupted every summer and every january but kind

of is what it is that's just you know as as as joe said you've just got to adapt to to the to your around it The structures of the deal chap is just quickly the structures of the deals

are getting more and more complicated than Sammy would have seen this a lot that my

favourite new development this summer has been the conditional obligation

I like that one because it makes just in terms of grammar it makes

no sense so that's yeah so you have I think I think Hoyland is on a conditional

obligation at Napoli isn't they have to pay 44 million euros to Man United

if they qualify for the Champions League and there's a few deals like that. And I think Sammy's right, that you see that they are, they're thinking their way around these problems much more. I do wonder whether the one of the kind of after effects

of PSR that we hadn't thought about is that it gives clubs a target. You know exactly what your headroom is. You know how much you can spend. And most people in football won't be looking at that and saying, well, we better not get near that. They'll be looking right. We'll spend all of that and then we'll see what the problem is. So Kivior, yeah, for Hincapier seems like a roughly straightstop, I think Hintapier is an upgrade, but it means that Arsler can book all that money. Hintapier's loan with an obligation, or maybe even loan with an option, and they get all that extra PSR whittle room. They're using it as a game, effectively. The money has become a game to them. Can you only have a conditional obligation, but not a conditional option?

I think all options are inherently conditional. I think that might be the way that options work. Rory writes for the observer in case you were under it. now. Let's do this tactically with Isaac, shall we? Because you watch Liverpool Arsenal yesterday for a match of the day. How does that Liverpool forward line work

with him? Does it actually not matter because it could be horses for courses depending on their opponent? Do they slightly change their structure in how they operate? They've got to get him in the building. They've got to train with him. They've got the people who are going to run the game. They've got to work out

how he gels with them. So how does he gel with Florian Verz? How does he deal with the fact that Mo Salah's going to play, regardless of his quality in the game? And that's not me knocking him. He plays, you know, he was basic yesterday, weren't he? Some of the touches that he took. But we all knew at some point he was probably going to settle the game.

He didn't, but he still has that. So he's going to play. And he's actually used to someone on that right-hand side. I think he had a great relationship with a Jacob Murphy, a workhorse who's just willing to put it on a plate for him. How does he adapt? He's a top player. and Anish Flot will have all these ideas

but in answer to your question will they change tactically it's really hard to say because he won't know he won't know where he's at he won't know how that will flow we don't know if Newcastle used all of his talents he might have some other ways of playing that didn't necessarily suit Eddie Howe that might work with Liverpool it probably won't be instant you know with the lack of fitness

and what's gone on and the stuff surrounded him it would take someone in a certain headspace to just walk in and carry on like nothing's happened it will weigh on him a tiny bit, but ultimately you'll have that Liverpool jersey on and the Liverpool fans will get behind him like they do. And he probably just needs to score those first couple of goals for everyone to just leave him alone and he can get on with business. How does it work for you, Chris, do you think? Yeah, I think Joe's right. I don't think that they will rush Alexander ESAC into the team. I think that that would be Darfur for Liverpool to do that. I think it will

take time for him to get up to speed. I don't see there being sort of a mark change in in sort of how Liverpool play because of him. We know that Isak is versatile, you know, is versatile, can score goals in different ways. He's tremendous in the air. And with Eckertique, I think it just gives Liverpool that extra strength, that extra option up front. And, you know, they're extremely strong in that forward line.

So it's a, you know, it's a piece of business in truth where you think ESAC going in, Liverpool now are strong favourites for the title without him and maybe there'd been an injury to, you know, Salah or Rekatiki or whatever you think, have they got enough strength in depth? But with him in the building now, you're thinking, blimey, you know, once he gets up to speed, then I think he'll fit in just fine.

Although that signing doesn't alter what you said before the game yesterday that they're too defensively vulnerable. I think if you looked at Liverpool in the first two games against Bournemouth, there was a sort of criticism about Liverpool being vulnerable to Bournemus counter-attacks and then Newcastle just out-muscled, just out-worked Liverpool with their 10 men. I think yesterday, the way that Liverpool defended, if you watch Canate in the first two games of the season, you'd think it barely played football before and he was a trial list.

But yesterday he was absolutely phenomenal. They could go in so many different directions, couldn't they? Now, there's an article on the BBC Sport website, actually. real tactical dive into how different players can be used in different roles. Even highlighting that Ekateke, when he was at Iron Track Frankfurt, actually worked as a two with Marmouch at times, and they sort of played 4-2-2-2. Now, that would then alter a role for Sala or Gapot or Virtz,

but I'm just highlighting that as an option of how Ekitke played at Frankfurt. No role will get altered for Sala. No. He tactically sits out there and plays his game, because what's the point in signing and keep it? him. He's proven what he does and how the team works around him. They've almost got to just, like I said, yesterday, sometimes he's going to have those days

where the ball bounces off him and he doesn't score, but ultimately most of the time he's going to affect the game. So I can't see any role where do you want Verts to be playing having watched yesterday because he was deep, wasn't he? He was, he seemed to pick the ball up quite deep yesterday. Yeah, he was hard to keep it. He just didn't really feature, did he? But I'm not going to hold that against him. I've seen so much of him. I've played against him

probably four years ago when he was really young and he's just a top player. He's coming in to a Liverpool team into a Premier League that's really, really difficult and he's just having a little bit of time to find his route. And what I talked about with ESAC coming in, Liverpool have got to work out. He doesn't necessarily just walk through

the door and dictate the game. He's walking into a very good team, very good system and he's having to learn it himself and he needs those moments. He's going to need those, not even one game, he's going to need two or three games where he starts. It all starts to tick through him. Everyone trusts him. Gravenberts trusts him. Van Dyke's pumping balls through the lines to him. He's getting it on the half turn. Isak or Eckertike's working out how

he likes to feed them and put them in. That all takes a little bit of time. So at the moment, I wouldn't know where he is. Probably going deep yesterday was him searching for the ball because he's a confident player. He's a brilliant player and he wants to be on the ball. And that's what he's being important to do. But at the moment, he's just struggling to find where he fits. I think he was much better in the second half yesterday. And you've got to bear in mind that that is Arsenal. And they, Arsenal are brilliant defensively. The Arsenal are really good at stopping teams playing. I was at that first game of the season against Bormouth,

when for 20 minutes in the second half, Bournemouth just had Liverpool on the ropes. And Iriola said afterwards that the thing with Liverpool is they've got so much individual quality that even when their system's not really working, they can still settle games just by kind of a moment of magic. And obviously we saw that from Sober's like yesterday. And I wonder whether, as they go through those teething problems

that Joe's talking about, As they work out, you know, do Ikeke and Isak kind of interchange, one sort of theoretically on the left, one through the middle, maybe you swap around, maybe that makes them harder to pick up. Sala, I think, probably just stands on the right like you always does. That's what Mosella does. You need Virtz to be a little bit further forward. That maybe means Gravenberts and McAllister have to play a bit further forward. But maybe the gamble is that while they're working all that stuff out, they've got so much talent on the pitch that games are decided anyway. I'd agree with that.

I think Vertz will be fine. It's just a bedding in period. I think that I think because of how much Liverpool spent on him, we just suddenly expect a switch to be flicked and him to be incredible. I think in the early games it's certainly about developing understanding and relationships and combinations with other midfielders and forwards and understanding their movements. What isn't in doubt is his awareness to see a pass and slide a pass?

I think that will come. I think maybe the sort of physicality aspect getting up to speed with the Premier League, maybe something, but I don't see him, you know, fitting in as a big issue. Diverts score against you in that game. You can't even remember when you moved. Yeah.

Whether you remember. No idea. I think we got pumped, so highly likely, yeah. That bit of analysis last night. I was just speaking about the energy for the Premier League of Sir Bosla's. 200-yard sprint there and back was And he wasn't even breathing

He was appealing for the goal kick And he just got on with it He was unbelievable yesterday What a top player Just as regards yesterday's game Has there been an overreaction To Arsenal losing it, Chris? Yes, but I think it is a bit of a theme

Because remember when Artetta Went to the Etty had and put up a defensive display. And they just missed out, didn't they, on the title? So I think people have maybe gone early with that. It was a brilliant free kick, which decided the game. That's the bottom line. You know, who's to say if Declan Rice would have, you know,

had a, I think he did have a free kick, but banged a free kick in from 30-odd yards. You know, it would have been, we'd be talking about Arsenal in glowing terms and saying, Artetta, that was an absolute masterclass from him. But it is, there is something there, which I think will be looked out how Arsenal approach certain away games this season against the bigger team,

because if Arsenal want to get over the line, I think it's fair to say, then the way that Liverpool performed defensively in the opening two games, there's the theory that Arsenal should have gone for the jugular more. So I certainly get that, but it was such a tight game, could have gone either way, and Liverpool found a way. I suppose the reason I threw it in there is the overreaction, Joe is the two players that people could have argued start instead of how they lined up yesterday

would have been Oedegard and Eza but Oedegar's coming back from an injury and I follow your train of thought on Isak it's not like you just walk through the door and immediately take to it and there you go even if you've been in the Premier League already say the same thing about EZE so it may have been slightly cautionary when it comes to tactics but also probably cautionary towards the individuals as well

Yeah, I think Michel Artetta, if he's proved anything, he's a thinker, isn't he? And he would have made all those decisions. But he wants his team to do exactly what he wants them to do. And obviously that goes without saying. But I mean, there's no room for real kind of flamboyancy or going off the cup. Individuality. That's the one. That's the one.

Sorry, I haven't got that guardian degree. I was struggling there. Thank you. Individuality. So to bring Eze in, who's a top player, no doubt he's a top player. but the conversations would have been minimal getting him through the door. Martinelli, for everything that he frustrates people with, he knows exactly what Mikhail wants him to do.

And he did it. Is Ezzer an upgrade? I mean, where with Odegaard he's sort of nursing his way back in and you sort of understand that. His form, you know, hasn't been exceptional. Maybe there's a slightly different argument with Ezra simply, sort of head-to-head, who would you pick? Who's the better player?

Who's more creative? I think that that's a legitimate argument. with that but it's you know it's I'm not saying it's an easy call

to make between Martinelli and Eze Chris you're saying yeah yeah yeah no it's a I think it's a valid

question I think there are two different players knowing sort of knowing a little bit about how Arsenal recruited or why they

recruited Eze I think they they primarily see Eze as a 10 as a number 10 and they when they wanted to sign him or when they first made the approach this was sort of much earlier in the summer he was

with a view to him being playing in that in that ten role as the summer panned out they kind of worked out that well Ethan when he was signing a new contract there was some doubt that he was going to go we've got martin odigard can we really do we really need another 10 so from there obviously kai havers got hindered they needed another attacking body through the door and because they had this long-term interest in him, they went and done the deal. But I don't necessarily think that Michel Artetta sees

Ebertche Eze as an out-and-out left-sider. I think he will, if he can, and it's difficult, obviously, but you've got over-guards. That's quite straight, you know, to suggest he cannot play there. I think he can operate over there, out there.

But I think that's why they signed in Hinkapi, another left-back, because I think what they will see, what you might see when Eze plays is that he will drift in and I think they just want more of an out-and-out defender in Hinkapi just to protect that left side a bit more

That therefore means, doesn't it? That they've got quite a lot of players who they view in very similar roles Because he's very clear in what he wants And I'm just thinking about Eze Had he been fully fit and available Maybe he would have fitted in in the 10 But would he have fitted in the left-hand side

When they go into Anfield and he wants kind of that structure and that burst of pace on the left-hand side but willing to get back in would he have picked Martinelli any? I think it's very,

he plans a 38 game season does Mikhail Artetta and again that sounds simple but I'm saying he's gone to Liverpool and gone, I think there's three potential results here there's the nil-nil I think we could win one-nil

and we could lose one-nil in a very close game and I'm okay with that I'm not saying we lose to a Joe, three potential results. I'm going to win one. with tight games was my point, mate. Tight gains was my point.

With his kind of chess piece and how he structures it and how he wants his team to set up. I don't think he's ever going to go to Liverpool and go, you know what, this is a chance of us to really stick our mark on the Premier League. I'm going to show them what we've got and I think we can pump them two, three because they struggled against Bournemouth,

who by the way, battered Totman. So to use Bournemouth as an example getting at Liverpool's defence, the Premier League's unbelievable, a top top league and a top top teams and every old has proven that. But what I'm saying is, would he have changed it and been more attacking if he had everyone and Eze had been through the door? I don't think he would. I really don't. I think he believes in a Martinelli playing on that left-hand side and that's why he played him. Because then that becomes the interesting discussion, doesn't it, Rory? Why don't

you go to Anfield and go at Liverpool like Bournemouth went at Liverpool? But then the reverse of that is, well, they went at Liverpool, but they lost four two. But that's never going to happen. So there's no point in that being a conversation whilst Mikhail Artetta is the manager. No, okay. It's not though, is it? I move on to my next. Do you think that's going to happen? No, no, no, but I don't think that is going to happen.

But I do think there is a conversation from maybe some asshole fans going, oh my God, we've done the business that we've done. We've seen that they look vulnerable. Let's go at them. But I agree, they're not going to do that. That's for our fans I have, but you've got to be bulletproof. I'm fully believing what you're doing, which he does. And, you know, it's not working at the moment because they're not winning.

I understand totally what you're saying, but as Mark says, if Arsenal don't get over the line this season, that will be another legitimate criticism of Mikhail Artetta, because it, you know, it wasn't just at Liverpool this season. It's happened, you know, before at Manchester City, as I've said before. And if Arsenal come up short again, they'll say, well, Mikhail Artetta,

it hasn't been, hasn't learned his lessons of the past, really. You know, he should have gone for the jocular. And with the, with the sort of Martinelli as a thing, I'm sorry, you know, I'm sorry, I know you're saying, well, Artetta likes to have players who play in a certain position. I take everything which Sammy says on board. But people can't tell me that Martinelli is a more creative player than Ezra. And Ezra can't play off the left-hand side and wouldn't be a greater threat. Ezra is a better footballer, full stop. He could do it.

He's not stupid. He would understand how to track back, how to run back, how to do all those hard yards. he's been a brilliant player a consistent player for Crystal Palace over five years scored a barrel load of goals got a load of assists so I think you know

at times it's a straight you know it's a straight pick who's the better player you pick your better creator you're more likely goal scorer you do that if you were the coach and you were the manager and you were making those decisions

but what I'm saying is I'm not saying Mikhail Oetta's right I'm not here to judge him and tell him who's right or wrong I'm telling you from what I know and the personality that I've got used to as the Arsenal manager, the one that they continually back, they continually back because they've had opportunities to get rid of him before and they've said, no, we believe in what he's doing,

for him to just flip a 180 and go, you know what, I'm probably going to get a load of stick of this doesn't work out. I'm going to start flinging it when I go to the Etiad, when I go to Amfield. He's proven that he doesn't care. He is so hell-bent on what he's doing and what he thinks is right. And I'm not saying he's right, Chris, I'm not saying that Eze isn't a better player than Martinelli. I'm just saying I'm not surprised when those decisions are made. Like, it's not a conversation. You talk about Arsenal fans being frustrated. Of course they would be.

Because they're not being paid to make those massive decisions and put it on the line and go toe to toe with Liverpool. No, although they are paying to watch the results of those massive decisions. I said they're not getting paid. No, and I'm saying, but they are paying to watch the results of that. And I say they're allowed an opinion. Of course they are. And I hear it.

And like those conversations, I'm just bad when it comes to things like this because I'm like, well, what's the point in us having a chat about it? change. Yeah. We need to work on how this show works. Probably ruining the show, yeah.

Joe, yeah, yeah. So, to me, the idea that Arsenal didn't try and win yesterday's ridiculous. Arsenal did try and win. They just tried to win

in a specific way. You can try and win a game by saying, this is going to be fine margins. Both teams look really wary of each other. Like, they both looked very much like they knew just how much

the other team could hurt them. I think a lot of the frustration for Arsenal fans would be that certainly in the first half, Arsenal looked like they had maybe more control than Liverpool did, and they never, they didn't really create a chance, certainly from open play throughout the game. And I think that's, that would be the short-term frustration. I think the risk for Artetta is that if you're playing winning football,

if you're playing football, there is kind of fine margins, quite cautious, all the stuff that you're describing, you have to win. Because if you don't win after a while, people start saying, well, this isn't great to watch. That's the risk he's taking. just to be clear, I'm not on here to protect Mikel Artetta. I'm not here. I'm not here to appease the Arsenal fans. I'm just telling you what I knew would happen and how it would play it and like it didn't

surprise me, that's all I'm saying. I've missed work with you. Yeah, cheers, man. I feel like I've worked with you for a few months. Get closer to the action with live commentary from the world's greatest sporting events on BBC Sounds. It is all over.

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I do think this is interesting, Chris. He's a Newcastle fan. He says, I'm not happy with the Wistler Transfer. He's shown the same disrespect to the fans of Brentford that Isak showed at Newcastle. We don't live in their multi-million pound bubbles. Contracts don't seem to matter anymore. If players can refuse to play,

knowing their value is far more than their contract is worth. Is that a fair point? Absolutely fair. I agree with that. 100%. I mean, players sign contracts. You know, people in everyday life sign contracts, you adhere to those contracts. Now, if Isak and VISA had buyout clauses in their particular contracts, that's absolutely fine. It's up to them to tell their agents to get those clauses into their contracts. But, you know, in respect to the way that they have behaved

an actor, they've got what they want, but it's absolutely despicable what they've, you know, what they've done. They may well be happy tonight, but it's a disgraceful way to behave. It really is. And, you know, I mean, Eddie Howe, you know, with Isak and his career, Isaac owes Eddie Howe a hell of a lot. But he's just treated him with total disrespect. But having said that, Newcastle have signed Wiss who's done

the, who's done, you know, exactly the same thing as as ESAC has. If they end up with Wiesa and Volta Mada to replace ESAC, is that decent business, Rory? And actually, Volta Mata and Wissa together will have cost roughly the same as they'll get for ESAC. Yeah, I think Newcastle have had a good window other than the shadow cast across it

by the whole ESAC situation. If you look at the signings they've made, they've strengthened every area of their team. Ramsdale's come in as competition to post. Malik Tjure from Milan gives them defensive strength in depth. I think Jacob Bramses has had injury issues, but I think he's a brilliant footballer, and he could be a great signing.

Ilanga hit the ground running. Volta Mada, really, really promising. Bayan tried really hard to sign him this summer, and I think got caught out by their own hubris, as much as anything else. They just assumed Stuttgart would buckle. What's hubris mean? Kind of tempting fate.

Thank you. Sort of arrogance. I think Bayern basically assumed that Stuttgart would buckle because they're by Munich and Stuttgart sort of went No, don't really want to do that, thanks But he's a great sort of up and coming star of German football

He's got all the physical and technical attributes to do really well from the little that I've seen of him Wisser is proven in the Premier League They have Champions League football to think about this year which was a problem for them two years ago in terms of depth They should have solved that problem I don't want to claim any knowledge that I don't have or say that I can do anything

I could do anything that I couldn't. I've got to admit, if I was running Newcastle, if someone had been foolish enough to say you can do this transfer window for us, I think the one thing I maybe would have thought is Whister is obviously overpriced for his age. Maybe you sit on that money and you wait until January or next summer

and see if there's someone you really like. You still got Willa Sula, Jillinson can play up front. Anthony Gordon can play through there. But just hang on from there. Look at it from Eddie Howe's perspective. Okay. I mean, yeah, and what he's done.

And, you know, Joe Lyndon, Newcastle tried him up front. Asula, Eddie Howe didn't even mention Asula. But, you know, so that, that's a pretty, I know, you know, came on and scored against Liverpool. That's pretty damning for him. And Anthony Gordon, as, you know, as a makeshift, that that's not ideal. So they also have to have to please Eddie Howe in some way, shape or form. Don't they have the Newcastle hierarchy by electing that through? Yeah, absolutely, and they've clearly prioritised that.

And I can see the logic in that, Chris. I don't think it's a ridiculous thing to do. I think Wissett is, I mean, their first bid for him was 25 million quid, and they've ended up paying towards 60, which is that is a, it's not a bad, you know, that's pretty good negotiating from Brentford. I just wonder if, like, the best practice of, again, just my opinion, I am not qualified to run a football team. I wonder if it's worth paying.

You didn't have to clarify that. But it's a relief. I wonder if it's maybe in hindsight, you could say sometimes the deal that you don't do is valuable. If you say, look, there might be a player out there who will cost 70, 80 million quid, who Newcastle could have waited a year for, and then you have Voltaimada and one other.

60 million pounds seems a lot to pay for the player that basically Newcastle have been saying all summer is the replacement for Callan Wilson. It would have been a lot cheaper just to keep Callum Wilson. who's been injured for however long barely played a game so the alternative for that for Eddie Howe is don't get a striker in finish 12th in the Premier League and get the sack

because they didn't get a strikeer in they will finish 12th in the Premier League because I think their squad is much stronger but there is that expectation at Newcastle and Newcastle owe it to Eddie Howe in some way, shape or form and I think he said ESAC or words to that effect that ESAC if they got two in which they have got to in now,

then ESAC could go. So, you know, it is what it is. But to say that they, you know, that they should have waited, you know, this was always going to be the case where they were going to pay an overinflated price for whichever send a forward. It is, especially this late on in the day.

It would have been a hell of a risk, wouldn't it, just to go in, as promising as Volta Mada is, by all accounts, to just go with him and back off Wissau. if they were asking for 55 million. That would have been a heck of a risk. Yeah, I think it would have been. And I think that they got in their head

and got into their plans that they were going to get Visser in. So he pushed and pushed, as Chris said, and Eddie Howes probably said, look, if this is going to happen, which we all knew it was going to happen, in terms of the ESAC and the money coming in, we need to use it on VISA,

because that's who I planned for and that's who I think can make work this season. You know, they're not an established Champions League team. They're very much in that battle to get into it, and they've got into it now, and they need to stay in it. So if FISA means they've got to play it over-priced to him with money that they've got, then I think they've just said that that's the risk that they're willing to take.

As a supplementary question, and this is a sincere one, if you're Willa Sula and your manager's saying, we don't have a recognised centre forward, do you get offended by that? You can choose to if you want, but you're going to make any difference. Or you can go in and bang a few goals in training and get in his face. They're your options. You can get offended. It is not going to change Eddie Howe, what he thinks.

You know, as sorry as everyone's feeling for him, he's ruthless as well. That's a ruthless comment. Don't feel sorry for him. He's the gaffer, and he doesn't think he's good enough to play up front. So he's gone out and bought someone else. But he's probably not feeling too good about himself. I don't think it's a compliment, is it? No, not really.

If you're Mark Gaye now, how difficult has today been? Takes all different personalities, right? And I think if it was any of the other two players who forced their moves, I think there'd be some serious problems. from Mark, I don't know him but for the impression that I get and the way that he conducts himself I think he wanted to go to Liverpool

and he said to Crystal Palace if you can make it happen that'll be great I'll go up and I'll shake hands and if it doesn't happen so be it you've got to be okay with these things especially if you're going to take his stance you know we're talking about the stances

that people have taken he very much will have known that it was Oliver Glasner would have been clear with him they're having definitely having open conversations and Mark Gehie's going and saying look I would like to go what you, and he's going, I'd love you. He's probably said, I'd love you to go. You probably

deserve to go. I'd love to see you playing for Liverpool, but I'm the Crystal Palace manager. We've got a huge year coming up. You're so influential here. If we can do the business, I'll let you go, mate. But if we can't, you'll stay. And by the sounds of it, I think Mark Gahey will just kind of shrug his shoulders and say, look, well, my bag's packed, give me the nod, let me know what I'm playing for, and then I'll give my own. It's a respect thing, Mark, isn't it? It's a respect thing to, you know, to Oliver Glast, but also his teammates. I'll go back. You know, when you sign a contract, players are happy to sign contracts for, you know, tens of thousands of pounds a week.

Players are happy to put their name to that, sign it, take all the money. But the contract has to mean something. So, you know, to be fair to Mark Gay, the contract has meant something. Yeah, and that's my whole, and that's the point which, you know, which I'm making. And from Pallas's point of view, who have been brilliant under Oliver Glastner, Oliver Glasner, you know, saying, well, if we can't get replacements in, then help me out. And he is doing so. So, you know, I'm sure, as Joe said, Oliver Glasner would have loved Mark Gehue to go.

What a way to go. Brilliant goal, which he scored against Haston Villa. And Crystal Palace fans would have all understood that if they have replacements in. But he is under contracts. Contracts have to mean something. But, you know, if he goes back to Palace and gets his head down and plays, as I'm sure he will, then fair play to him. Well, he still get criticised for leaving on a free

for running his contract down. Chris Wilder on Saturday said to you, Chappas, that the thing he dislikes the most is when players run their contract down because it's leaving the club in church. It'd be a bit harsh to criticise him now. Well, I mean, it wouldn't be the first... He was going up there and then sort of wham him

after going back and, you know, if he's going to go back and fit in, and then baseball back, then when he does go on a free at the end of the season, he'd gone back to do him a favour. But can we just be clear? I don't think Marguéhy cares whether he gets criticised or not. He's just got his way that he wants to do things.

Who cares if you get criticised? I know it's not nice what's happened to how Alexander Isaac has conducted himself. But trust me, if Newcastle wanted it to go the other way, they'd have stomped all over him. They'd have stomped all over. And I've seen it so many times in football. If football was fair, he acted unacceptably. If everyone honoured their contracts, clubs included,

this is how we're going to do it. You're going to get your equal opportunity. Play while you continue to play. Everyone shakes hands. Great. That's a great way to look at football, but everyone knows it doesn't work like that. We've all been stomped on when it's suited someone else. But that's got nothing to do with anything, Joe. What do you mean? What do you mean it's got nothing to do with anything?

Well, it's wrong with Alexander Isaac standing his ground and saying, I want to go to Liverpool. It's all about the contract because he's under contract. Well, it's obviously not because he's gone. The contract means nothing. You can say you can want the contract to mean something, but it doesn't because he's gone to Liverpool. Yeah, I know he's gone and that, but he's getting slow. for going, and he's got his own way, but he cares if he's getting slammed though, Chris. I'm sure Alexander Isak cares

what any of us think right now. Well, obviously he doesn't. And why should he? He's selfish. He's selfish, no, and he's disrespectful to his teammates. He's doing it for himself and his family. Oh, teammates are teammates. Joe, don't sign the contract then.

If you don't want to sign a car, or get your agent to put the claws in, Joe. I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Chris, you're ruthless. You're ruthless, so I don't know Why are you having this kind of lardy-dard opinion? Who's the ruthless one here? I'm ruthless.

By backing Alexander Reesack. Did you hear me back him? Did you hear me back him? Did you hear me back him? You just said he did the right thing. No, I didn't say that. I said I understood why he did it. And I'm saying, why would he kick?

I mean, you talk about Mark. What's wrong with me understanding? I'm allowed to understand him. No, it's not. That's okay. Well, do you understand selfish behavior? That's fine. What's it back?

Why is he being selfish to? You? Because you're getting a bit upset? No, I'm not just Who's he being selfish to? Contracts have to mean something, Joe. But they don't. But they don't.

Contracts don't have to mean anything. No, I'm not saying that they do or don't. I'm just telling you they don't. And when it doesn't suit, when it doesn't suit the club, the contract means nothing. Go and sit in that dressing room. Don't train when we come in. All those sorts of things happen.

So why, when it's the other way around, do we all of a sudden have to adhere to the contract and respect everything that's going on? I want it to be that way. Trust me, I want it to be that way. I loved respecting my contract. I really did. And I love playing for the clubs that I played for

and I love respecting the fans. But I'm also well aware, and I've been in the game, that I'd love it to be that way. I really would. And I love football. I love football fans. I love playing for a team.

I love representing. I love all those decisions. My family being a part of it. But I've seen way too many things go on in football where that's not the case. I've seen way too many things in football where they don't care how you feel.

They don't care how your family feels. They don't care if you've just moved everyone and everyone around you has come up to a certain point in the world and you've dropped your bags and just because you've had a bad game or two they're now looking to get rid of you because it suits the PSR.

That's what I'm saying. I agree with that but that's sort of separate but you still can't justify the actions of Alexander Easek. I'm not justifying. I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying I understand.

Yeah. By understanding. Is it what really the same thing? No, okay. Can I? I enjoyed how in the middle of that chap has just sat back like with the

self-suffice someone who just started a really nice fire I actually nearly put my feet on the table next to me just to relax and listen to it can I just check

your you're contracted for nine or ten Monday night clubs this season I like honouring my contract yeah that's just me Chris your contract lasts for how long I don't know indefinitely

until I say something really stupid Joe Hart, Rory Smith and Chris Sutton are with us We had an email from Stephen in Belfast saying We're going to talk Villa now He says Villa don't seem to have got over the last day of last season yet A real sliding doors moment A decision that was a hundred million pound swing to Newcastle from Villa

Of course we will never know what would have happened If Roger's goal was not disallowed United may still have won Newcastle may have drawn all one Yes no doubt Chris or Rory will probably say that's one decision across an entire season. Martinez was sent off in that game. A decision going against you in the seventh game of the season,

though, is a lot different than one going against you in the last 50 minutes of the season. Fair, Rory? I mean, logically, no, that's not true, but yes, it is fair. It does feel as though there's been like an emotional toll on Villa that they haven't really recovered from this summer. Someone told me today that they've been quite frantic Villa in trying to find reinforcement.

over the last couple of days that they're not maybe acting in the way that has that I don't know I guess the precision that you would look for to try and strengthen their squad it does feel as though there's an erraticness to the way that they've kind of recruited a little bit that I think is not is not ideal the players they've got in Harvey Elliott's a really really good signing I think he'll do extremely well for them and they've got him on a brilliant deal for them alone with an obligation not a conditional obligation just an obligation to buy for for 35 money in quid which in the current market is, is extraordinarily low for the captain of England's under 21s. Sancho, I think, could be a brilliant signing for them. Probably won't be. Might be. Never know. They've still got the core of that side from last season. But they're seeing, I don't know, there feels like there's a sense at Villa that they,

I don't know, almost that everything's kind of arranged against them. It feels like a club that's down on its look for reasons that I don't really understand. Yeah. So the Elliot, Elliot's a low move with the obligation to buy. for 35 million pounds. Sancho is a loan. The United sources involve, say 80% of his wages will be covered by Villa. There are bonuses in that that would take the total up to 100% of his wages, apparently. Victor Lindelhoff has signed down a two-year deal.

That's on a free, and it looks obviously like Eminem Martinez is staying put because Manchester United have gone for a different goalkeeper. Nick Masheter is with us, being BC Sports Senior Football News Reporter, but has spent a lot of time focusing on Villa. is erratic a fair comment? I think they've just got to have been very, very careful this summer. We all know the PSR concerns that they've had. They can't just go out and spend the money they want to.

I mean, Villa voted against the PSR when it came in. They felt that it was going to restrict investment and stop owners from wanting to invest. And they've kind of kind of seen, had a quite a good bit of foresight there because for them and Newcastle, that has been the case. So they've had to been really picky of what they can get

because they can't go out and get essentially what they want they didn't want to sell Jacob Ramsey to Newcastle they had to go and do that that was needed to ensure they they complied with PSR again I agree with Roy though Harvey Elliott regardless of whether you get him

on the first day of the window or the last day of the window it's a sensational bit of business he's a great player 22 years old two European championships with England Premier League trophies with Liverpool for somebody of his age has got an incredible amount of experience

Is keeping Martinez surprised Villa hierarchy, Villa fans? I think if you look at his reaction, I mean Martin's reaction at the end of last season in his last game at Villa Park it probably surprises him because from what he looked like he was going to leave.

Where did, sorry to interrupt, where did he think he was going? Because for him to behave like that and set it up this summer, he looked like he had one, if not three options, ready to just feature during the summer and then get himself in.

I think we have to look at Manchester United all the way through. Yeah. And the fact that he is still there, I mean, he's been a wonderful goalkeeper, Ville, he's been part of their trajectory over the last few years, has been a core part of that.

They need to make sure that they have a happy goalkeeper because they can't have him sitting around as one of the top earners, and experienced plays won the World Cup. They can't have an unhappy Emmy Martinez at the, the club. They need to make sure that he's in the right mindset to go forward with Villa at least until January. Did Unai Emory want him out then? That's one you're going to have to ask Unai at the minute. Unai just repeats Marco Bezo's name, doesn't he? If you ask him about

Emmy Martinez. So any club like Aston Villa where they are at the minute would want, would need an Emmy Martinus. He's a fantastic goalkeeper. With the Turkish window being open until mid-September and looking like Edison's going to Fenabachi having been linked with Galatasaray would there be anything in potentially Martinez going there have they kind of just

giving up the fact that he's an Astin Villa player or is it always being that you find someone in this window and if you don't you come back in you'll be our number one well it's just got to work for everybody hasn't it yeah it's got to work for Villa Martinez and whether it's Galatasaray or whoever else I mean you can't can't necessarily force him to go somewhere

he doesn't want to go of course not And I don't want to go back over the, you know, who'd you upset? Are you bothered by criticism, whatever? Are you stirring a scrap here? No, I'm not. I'm definitely not here. But I was looking at various sort of on the text commentary on the website and message boards and whatever. It feels very split from the villa fans towards Martinez.

As in he's been great for them and he's a World Cup winner and they have adored him. But actually they're not impressed with how he's behaved this summer. Now, Alexander Isak or Yoan Wisser doesn't have to worry about that because they've gone to a different fan base now where they will probably be adored. Martinez would have to worry about that a bit more. Do you have any indication of how Villa fans would welcome him back? He's a rascal on the pitch, isn't he?

I think we've seen what he's done with Argentina previously, but he's been their rascal. He's one that they've taken into their hearts, and they adore him. They have really, really taken. to him because of what he gives on the pitch and what he potentially gives to the other team and whether we want to come a wind-up merchant or not. We've seen that. It's all down now to how he behaves going forward. Because if proverbial toys come out the pram or if he comes

out with any statements on social media or in the press, then the fans are going to jump on that. We've seen what's happened with Alexander Ezek, of course. So going forward, that, That's the crucial thing. You've kind of got to forget about what's gone in the summer because if he's staying, Aston Villa, he's there for the next few months. You know, you talk about his antics, and you can love him for that. And, you know, I don't love all that personally, but he is some goalkeeper. He makes massive saves.

And he would have been a really good sign for Manchester United, but he's not. So I honestly think that Villa just take him back in and he plays the next game and they get on with it. Nick, thank you. Nick Mashner with us, BBC Sports Senior Football News reporter. Are you surprised, and this isn't necessarily criticism of either the goalkeeping, of either players' goalkeeping abilities here or a comment on them, but are you surprised that Manchester United have gone down the route of a 23-year-old from Antwerp rather than Martinez?

I'm not surprised only because of finances and the Andreanana deal and what they put into it and, you know, they didn't get obviously any money when they lost De Hea. So it was just all spend and they put all their eggs in his basket and they're already in quite a difficult position and I know that that Martinez would have been a brilliant, brilliant signing had we not be living in the world

that we're living in right now and I think they've just had to make an educated decision and that's what they've gone with. They believe in this goalkeeper. I have not seen in play so I can't comment on him but I believe that a lot of teams

have been tracking him and they probably will believe in him but as I talked about is he the person hopefully he is for Manchester United but is he the person who just walks in and plugs that gap of complete uncertainty when it comes to the goalkeeping? Joe, I have a feeling you'll tell me that noise from the outside doesn't make any difference to anyone in football. It makes difference. It does make difference. No one's bulletproof.

But do you think that for goalkeepers, and maybe especially at a place like United where there is so much like relentless focus on everything, do you think that it plays a more pronounced role? Because goalkeeping is to an extent, obviously it's about reflexes, and reading of the game, and I'm sure I heard someone talk about 2020 vision the other day. Do you think that the ability to kind of be numb to criticism from the outside is kind of the defining thing about being a goalkeeper for Manchester United? The thing is that as soon as anyone makes a mistake in Gold for Man United, it's a massive thing.

And after a while, it feels like it becomes like a self-repeating prophecy. I get asked a lot, you know, being a former goalkeeper and played to a level. Young mothers and fathers and friends of children that want to go and go, what's your biggest bit of advice? and the only thing I can say is you go in goal because you want to be in goal so all those things that you've talked about the mood changing when you make a mistake

will people be worried about you in goal like none of that is in your mindset none of that was in my thought process when I signed for anyone when I walked out I walked out because I wanted to be in goal people say oh I feel sorry for your last line of the defence you make you know you make a mistake it goes in it costs you it cost the team

that is what I signed up for that is exactly who I am I don't care because I'm going to put myself in the best possible position, I'm going to make it as hard as I possibly can to beat for you to beat me. I'm going to try and win the game for my team and that's how you've got to be when you're a professional goalkeeper, it's your livelihood. We all go through

we suffer little bits of crisis of confidence, that's just the human side of it. But if you really want to play for Manchester United, all those things that you listed are not what you think about. You know what? Can I be that guy? I grew up watching probably Lamins will be. I grew up watching Dehaya or I saw a little bit

of Van Dasar. He wouldn't care about the other people that he's seen that haven't gone so well he wouldn't care what's happened to Andre or Nana he's seen the Pete Shemichael's and he's going to go I'm going to put that shirt on

and that's going to be me at the Stretford end when everyone feels cool and calm when I put a man your night's shirt on you can't think and he will not be thinking like all those things that you just listed there

because to be a top goalie that can't be in your mindset and it won't be in your mindset would you just going back to the just becoming a goalkeeper I mean two of my boys were terrible outfield that's why they're

goalkeepers. That's why a lot of goalkeepers ended up as goalkeepers. Look, if I could have been a striker scoring goal, if I could have had your career, I'd have taken it all day every day. I'd love to score a goal, but ultimately I ended up in that position and it just became apparent. It's

weird. I can go way too deep about it because I think to be a goalkeeper it's in every decision you make and how you behave and how you want to protect and be a last line and be solid and be okay with things going wrong. So again, Way too deep, but I just think you've got to live it.

And the things that Rory's listed, coming into Manchester United, you don't see it as that, you just see it as an opportunity. I want to stand there. I want the number one on my back. I want to show people that I can make people feel safe and I can win things. Are you surprised Manchester City have gone for Donoruma, Chris? No, not at all. Okay, I'll move on.

No, no, no, I am surprised. Yeah, why aren't you surprised? Do I think Doneruma is a better goalkeeper than James Trafford? Absolutely. And the other thing about Doneruma, which I keep hearing, Dona Ruma can't use his feet. Well, I'm afraid he can use his feet, and he has used his feet. You know, he's certainly not incapable.

He's just maybe not at the level of other goalkeepers. But do you know what? He's a brilliant goalkeeper, you know, one of the best, if not the best, out there. So why on earth would Manchester City not want to sign him? Because, Chris, and I don't know if anyone here has first-hand experience of this, Pep Guardiola has always made quite a big thing about his goalkeeper playing line-breaking passes and he has in the past

perhaps moved on perfectly good international goalkeepers perfectly good. I'll take perfectly good if it is me. That's all I'm having. I'm not doing any further than perfectly good. Pepi Gradiola isn't allowed to change his mind. He's not allowed to change his mind, is he? He is absolutely. And look, I agree with you about Donnerum is like having a bear in goal. Why would you not want to have a bear in goal?

but do you not think it's surprising he does he looks like a bear don't know I think it's surprising that after what eight nine years since he replaced Joe with Claudio Bravo that pepsed on or actually do you know all that stuff doesn't matter as much

because that guy's massive and can and can produce these these incredible saves it feels like a it is a significant shift from Guardiola it is I would say just a significant a tactical shift as when he put a massive number number nine in his team having spent

X number of years, basically saying strikers are old-fashioned. Yeah, well, unfortunately, I fell foul of his shift. But I'm not going to, I'm not going to judge him for that. And I think, like Chris has said, I actually think Donaruma, I know how you feel, Jan Luigi, mate, because he's capable with his feet. He's more than capable. I've watched him play under pressure. I've watched him play for Italy.

I've watched him the whole way up from 16 years old. There's a man who could, well, a boy at the time who could hold his nerves. for AC Milan all the way through and then gone into PSG and won them their first Champions League trophy look I'm a big James Trafford fan I'm really pleased for how he's done and him coming back to Manchester City

I think it's a really positive move but why would you not sign Dona Ruma and have him as part of your part of your system and someone who can win you games he's absolutely humongous as you say in goal making top top saves at the top level and when it comes to James Trafford I think they're in such a zone right now

Pepo Gwale is in such a zone where maybe he thought that the Premier League would just continue winning it and maybe he'd win last year and move out. I think he's ruthless now and he wants someone in there who he knows his world class. James Stratford has potential. I think they will nurse that and I think

they will respect that but he might not get what he wanted out of this season if they do sign Dona Ruma but I still think he'll have a Manchester City career for sure. Do you think it's you could easily nowadays have two different styles of goalkeepers? In the same way, you might have two central strikers or two different right-backed.

Yeah, and I can't see them. I don't think it will just be cups. I think it will be games and it will be momentum and it will be a 60-game season that they'll plan and they'll play quite flippantly. If both of them are performing and he feels comfortable, I think he will pick and choose who he can rest and how he can work it. And constantly looking to develop James Trafford. Of course, they'll look to develop Donna Ruma as well

in how he wants him to play because he'll want him to be on the ball. but I didn't watch PSG last year in that Lewis Enrique team and think, oh God, they're just having to shell it because Dona Room is in gold. No, no, they played through the system, not a problem, and hardly anyone caught them, proving why they literally won everything. Just to clarify a little earlier, Joe said

he had to deal with Guardiola's shift. There was an F. There was an air. Oh, yeah. Thank you, just to clarify that. Was there? Joe, thank you. Thank you.

Rory, Chris, as well. He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. There it is! It's a day to remember the Wayne Rooney! And now he's got a podcast. Welcome to The Wayne Rooney Show. Twice a week, Wayne Rooney, Kay Kerrude and me, Kelly Summers, break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond.

As much as you'd like to say it, loyalty in football and hours is no existence, whether that's fun players or managers. Plus, we'll hear the funniest, wildest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career. The Wayne Rooney Show. Everybody's talking about it. Listen on BBC Sounds.