Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Trent leaves Liverpool and happy Kane!

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Pat Nevin to discuss Trent Alexander-Arnold leaving Liverpool and Harry Kane winning his first major trophy after Bayern Munich won the Bundesliga.And Bristol City manager Liam Manning joins the podcast to talk about leading Bristol City into the Championship playoffs. Topics: 00:34 - Trent Alexander-Arnold leaves Liverpool 24:43 - Liam Manning discussing leading Bristol City into the Championship playoffs 36:20 - Wider Championship playoff chat 43:00 - Harry Kane wins first major trophyCommentaries on 5 Live/BBC Sounds this week: Wednesday: Paris St Germain v Arsenal (8pm) - 5 Live Thursday: Bodø/Glimt v Tottenham Hotspur (8pm) - 5 Live Thursday: Manchester United v Athletic Club (8pm) - 5 Sports Extra

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This week Matt sits down with team principal Christian Horner, you don't want to miss that. Watching him drive the car is a little bit like Roger Federer at the top of his game. So he'll be here driving for Red Bull next season. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the inside track wherever you get your podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Welcome to the Monday Night Club. Pat Nevin is here, Rory Smith and Chris Sutton as well. Thank you for being on, Pat. Nice to have you with us. It's nice to be here.

I can hear already where you're giving them to. You've got to sometimes, it's been a long season. We're going to start with Trent Alexander Arnold but what I find interesting here is that I sense that you might all have very similar opinions on this and the positivity side of things of somebody trying to explore new areas and wanting to test himself elsewhere. And that part may not be what Liverpool fans want to hear. But just from a human point of view, I wonder whether that is what you're thinking. Well, as part of it, you will hear various things. And certainly if you get

noises coming from the player or the players camp you're going to hear one thing or one angle on it and it's obviously well rehearsed. But remember there's many parts to this as well. Yeah, you might find out more about your capabilities of playing in different teams and in different countries and different places but you know the money's handy. No one's mentioned the money. And if you go at the end of your contract, look, you're gonna make a huge, huge, huge sum of money. Now, if he stayed at Liverpool,

he'd make a massive amount of money as well. But if you run your contract down and then you leave at the end of that, it's setting you up for life and a couple of other lives after that as well. So, yeah, I understand why he's doing it. There's a variety of reasons, but let's be open about all of them. I mean, genuinely, the money he'd earn at Liverpool, I mean, the rumours were, or certainly how it's been reported today, that a new contract at Liverpool would have made him

the highest paid fullback in the Premier League and the highest paid fullback in world football. I mean, that salary in itself would set him up for this life and one more, surely. That's not the way football people think, as far as I've spotted it over the years. Someone said, I'm going to give you, let me just pick a number out there, I'm going to give you, let's just pick a number out there,

I'm going to give you 10 million, but you can get 100 million over there. What are you going to do? You know, it's going to have an effect on you. Look, let's get this right. I'm not saying that is the reason, 100%. It's not the reason. But to be among the reasons,

there's a reason why you run your contract down. Now, he wasn't offered a contract early enough, and I'm sure we'll get into that contract down. Now he wasn't offered a contract early enough and I'm sure we'll get into that for the reasons why he wasn't given a contract, it wasn't agreed and everybody knows and has known for many many years. If a player's got a contract and it's drawn down and you don't think he's going to sign again, you better go and cash in. It might be a good idea to do that. And the fact that Liverpool haven't done that, it could be seen as a mistake. Let me read by the way what Trent Alexander-Arnold has said today, you've probably seen this already

but if you've been out this bank holiday Monday then maybe you haven't. He said this is easily the hardest decision I've ever made in my life, the club has been my whole life, my whole world, from the academy right through until now the support and love I have felt from everyone inside and outside the club will stay with me forever. But I have never known anything else and this decision is about experiencing a new challenge, taking myself out of my comfort zone and pushing myself both professionally and personally. Now it's confirmed Chris, what are your initial thoughts? Yeah, really exactly what Trent has said I think I do I do take Pat's point to a To a point about the money, but I think he would have been set up at Liverpool anyway

But I think it's more about the challenge. He's 20 years at the club won everything done everything I I totally understand what is thinking. I think I think most fair-minded people in football would all accept he's been a brilliant player for Liverpool and Real Madrid. We often say this about Real Madrid when they come calling, you know, can players turn them down? And this smells like it's been a long time in the making. The contract situation is fascinating because once players get into two years and below and their contract's running down, it's really up to the club to act and enforce that situation where they can't let him get to this situation where he's leaving on a free. But the service he's given Liverpool, most Liverpool fans would wish him well.

I don't think, my son's a Liverpool fan and he's got the trends going and he's shown me a lot of stuff on social media, burning his shirt and things. But I don't think that social media is necessarily a barometer of what most people think. Toby So But the contract thing then, let's deal with that Rory, because everybody involved here, it would strike me, is in some ways a victim of circumstance. There are so many different things that have collided around the same time that have actually made getting a contract to Trent Alexander-Arnold probably harder than it should have been.

It's not, no? Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think that's a really measured, mature assessment of the situation, but this is football, so we should probably find someone to shout at. I think that's the way it should go. Well, Chris looks like he's about to shout at you for describing that point as mature and measured, but anyhow, go on. No, no, I think that has absolutely been a factor. So around the time that Trent's contract had two years to go, Liverpool found themselves between sporting directors.

So Julian Ward, Michael Edwards had left, Julian Ward, his immediate replacement, who was kind of an internal promotion. He did six or nine months in the job, I think, and then stepped down or stepped away for a while. And they ended up bringing in Jörg Schmacka, who was someone that Jörg and Klopp knew from Germany, a kind of wise and old hand, whose main role, I think, was to go and get the deals done.

He was being told, these are the targets, go and, you know, talk to Stuttgart about what's our endo, or go and talk to RB Leipzig about Dominic Saba's light. I don't think Schmadke had like a long term strategic role that was never meant to be his job. And then obviously you have the Klopp thing, what, 15 months ago, whereby the club suddenly has another huge thing to deal with, replacing not just, you know, manager for the previous decade, but the entire kind of sporting structure, which ends up with Michael Edwards coming back,

and Richard Hughes accompanying him, but with a manager to find. And I think that that year between those two things happening, that is when you would have been negotiating with Trent Alexander-Arnold and that Liverpool would have been hoping to do a deal. And also, I guess Trent to an extent, because that would have been with what, 18 months left,

that's when his negotiating power with the club is probably at its peak. That it did, and I think it's still an oversight from the club. I think that does suggest that, for a club that is incredibly well run Liverpool, and that's part of the reason they're champions, is that FSG have got a structure in place that really works. I think you should be able to foresee that potential problem. And there are still people there.

But they did, but Richard Hughes foresaw that potential problem in that again, you go back to the reports today, even before he actually was settled in the job and on the first day he made contact with Alexander Arnold's camp to say right can we start talking? No, I was going to say I think it's a little bit it's a little bit of a misunderstanding of how this works that one there were people at Liverpool Mike Gordon Billy Hogan who have been there throughout who would have been Authorised to conduct some sort of transfer negotiation or empower someone else at the club to conduct a transfer negotiation negotiation with Trent Trent Alexander Arnold and number two is that there's still being

offers made to him which sound like they're extremely lucrative So you have to question Does it matter that Liverpool had that kind of uncertainty over the sporting director was Trent's plan always to leave which is like Chris said Completely legitimate and the other thing is how long has Trent Alexander-Arnold known that Real Madrid are there because we've seen this at Bayern Munich previously we've seen it with various clubs. They've taken players from on a free transfer PSG obviously with Mbappe. Real Madrid didn't wake up in January this year and think, oh my god Trent Alexander Arnol's nearly out of contract, we better go and sign him. Yeah, but they all do that though.

They will have known that he was on their list for well over a year, probably two. If that, that I suspect might explain, because I don't believe that Liverpool haven't been thinking we better, you know, we better sign Alexander-Arnold to a new contract. I think that Trent Alexander-Arnold will have known that Real Madrid were there as an option for a long time and that might explain why the contract hasn't been signed. I think that that is right. I think that it's a pretty lame excuse to use other sort of factors about changing sporting

directors and what was happening with the Oakencroft. Changing manager? Yeah, but having your eye on Trent Alexander or Arnold and how much he would have been worth had they ended up selling him or whatever, that's a very lame excuse if that has been the case. I would hazard more towards what Rory said, that Real Madrid have made a play for him and he's had a nod and a wink that this is going to happen, run your contract down. It happens.

We saw it, we had it on the other side of defence, you had it with Alfonso Davies at Bayern for nine months, maybe a year, that ended up with him signing a new contract at Bayern Munich. But Real's play there was the same. They let the player know if this contract expires we will come for you and if you just don't sign a new contract two years out we'll come for you the summer before and we'll force Bayern to do a deal because that's Real's other trick and they work, that's not said

with any kind of judgment, they worked the system really really well Real Madrid because they do have this this pull that a lot of players completely understandably find really hard to resist But they all work with system part. Don't they all the big clubs work? The system I know I know raw raw is making out to realm of jude slightly the bad guys here Liverpool work the system to make sure the new Alexis McAllister's release calls up brighter. Yeah, but they all do it.

The difference is that there's only Real Madrid or Real Madrid. That's the difference. If they say to you... That's a profound comment. I think it is. There is a unique pull to Real Madrid, or maybe not quite unique, but a very strong pull to Real Madrid. And they have made this their kind of their MO for the

last three four years that they will go and get players that they couldn't afford to take out of clubs in terms of transfer fees they will get them when their contracts run down they did it to David Alaba they did it to Antonio Rudiger they did it to Kylian Mbappe there's a pattern to what Real Madrid do and it's really smart I'm not making out that they are the bad guys in the slightest. Well none of us have been naive enough to think it doesn't help. We're all nodding away going yeah. They try and stay within the rules, they make sure that it's not seen to be that bad. Oddly, it's a big, big thing and I know he's a very, very good player, but are Liverpool fans really that worried about this? You know, if you've got three players that run that contract,

and one of them's called Salah, and one of them's called Van Dyke, and one of them is your right fullback, and you've got Conor Bradley, who's ready to walk in there. And I mean, I was at the game, obviously, at the weekend there, and Bradley come on, and completely and utterly changed the game. Totally changed the game, flying forward all the time.

Now I'm not saying that he's a poor player, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying, is it really taking the planet? Yeah, we need to talk about it. But are they worried sick about it and is it gonna change what Liverpool are doing going forward? I don't think so.

I think it's massively gonna change them. I think, I think, Pat, that they're not worried because of what they have. I think they're, and only they could tell us, I think, I think Pat, that they're not worried because of what they have. I think they're, and only they could tell us, I suppose, but they're spurned because he's been there for 20 years since he was six and is, you know, one of their own. That's, that's, it's hurt rather than concern, isn't it? And you would expect a return on that as well. But his return, as any player would say, is, wait a minute.

For five years there, he had an average of just over 10 goals he was assisting a season for five years. The last two years, it's half of that. It's almost exactly half of that in the Premier League that he's providing. And I'm not, again, not saying that Liverpool are getting rid of him when he's on the way down. But the impact hasn't been quite as good over the last two seasons. So, you know, will Bradley be a real disappointment in comparison to him? I just don't know if it's the case. And if you're talking about, Rory's talking

about there, you've got people that are coming in that have to make decisions about who's going to stay. Well, concentrate on the absolute ones you need to get and the one you needed to keep was salad and your ones you needed to keep were Vantage I Think it's not just that sense of being sperm chappers I think the other thing that I've been surprised by the level of vitriol for certainly online. I agree with Chris I don't think that's representative at all of I think you will still hear his name Sona and Phil on the last day I the Liverpool fans I know in my day- day to day life are not sort of you know fuming spluttering blue murder about it. There is an acceptance this has been coming. The online

vitriol surprises me because it's so obvious that this was going to happen. I think a lot of it is because there's no fee and that feels so ridiculous. How can fans blame Trent for that it's up to it's up to the here is it no once again I'm gonna say this is not something I think I just think this is what the reason that the the anger is there because there are a section of fans who are fretful and annoyed that Fenway sports group who run the club do not Fretful and annoyed that Fenway sports group who run the club do not Regularly plow huge sums of money into the transfer market that they there is a there is an idea among certain Liverpool fans that the FSD Are quite tight that then means that Liverpool have to be self-sustaining Which means that every penny in is important in terms of spending money in the transfer market

The fact that the trend as a Scouser as a Liverpool Liverpool fan, as one of their own, has left on a free, running his contract down, not being sold, and I think this is where the argument falls down, I don't think Liverpool could have sold him, that feels not only like you're losing a beloved and important part of your team. What do you mean Liverpool? Just going back there. Can I finish that first part first and I'll explain that. So I think that it's a double blow because you're losing not only a real player but you're not getting the money to replace him.

The reason I think Liverpool couldn't have sold him, there is a very very small category of clubs who can afford his wages, whatever they are. You can't sell Trent Alexander-Arnold to standard liege, that's not going to happen. You can't sell him to Celtic, you can't sell him to basically anybody else in the friendly league. I don't think either would have been in for him. No, I don't think Celtic probably don't need him to be fair. But you know, there's a limit, I don't know, there's maybe ten clubs who can afford him, most of which are in England, you're not going to sell to them, which is their direct rivals.

That leaves PSG, who have Ashraf Hakimi playing there, don't need him. Bayern, who I think probably couldn't touch his wages, and even if they could, they've got Joshua Kimmich. Real Madrid, who we have a previous previously established Like to sign players on free transfers and don't want to give all the clubs money in transfer fees So would have waited for him to run his contract down and Barcelona can't afford it. So that's it There is no market for Trent Alexander. So would that have been part of the Liverpool's plan then with a year left to to sell him I think if they'd been sure he wasn't going to sign a contract, and it's complicated

because he's a scouser and he's a Liverpool fan, and it would have looked like an abdication of ambition to sell him, I think if someone had come in and said, well, here's £100 million for Trent Alexander-Arnold last summer. But they turned down 20 for him in January because they realised he was more valuable to give Arnott Slott a first league title. For 20 million, yeah, but not for 100 million last summer. That's a different equation. Worth underlining one other thing. I was at the Liverpool game against Spurs when they won the league and it's really worth underlining what you see about the online virtual. That

wasn't there in that game. They were singing his song, they were singing all the way through it and when he went off the pitch they were singing to him as well. After the game you get a really brilliant reaction from the cop and other parts of the ground. So you're absolutely right. This is a percentage, and I suspect a small percentage of Liverpool, although very vocal percentage, it has to be said that they're having a dig. But the MNC at bbc.co.uk and you can comment on the BBC Sport YouTube channel, the only the only flaw in that argument Rory would be if Mo Salah had gone on a free the vitriol wouldn't have been aimed at Mo Salah because Liverpool didn't get a fee for him.

No that's true it would probably have been towards Liverpool for not being up to matches. So what's the difference? I guess the difference is that if you're a Liverpool fan from Liverpool, a Liverpool fan from anywhere, and you play for your boyhood team and you are the champions of England and you've won everything, to me it's the perfect time to step away. You've done everything. Go and explore something new. Go and challenge yourself.

Go and play for Real Madrid. I think to a lot of people, and it's understandable, just as no one can tell Trent Alexander-Arnold how to live his life, other than saying don't be too rude about it, you probably shouldn't tell Liverpool fans how to react to stuff. Shouldn't swear. That's why I think you shouldn't. Don't swear. Use your words. But I

think the difference is that he's a scouser and it feels like he's living the dream of every fan and most fans, and I think this is totally understandable, don't understand why you would stop that dream. Could that be quite a dangerous thing though in the long run with young Liverpool-born players who have that attachment to the club and feel that the club progressed them and they feel they could go on to, I'm not saying to the level of Trent, but a good level and think, well, I better up it earlier. I better leave early.

I don't want to go through the same thing. It's quite a strange thing, isn't it, for people to think in that particular way. I think that's what it is to be a fan. Where has this come from then? I can't, honestly, I was racking my small brain today thinking about where has this come from this you know situation with Trent I can't I can't really think of another situation where where a player is given that sort of service won everything won absolutely everything and yet you know it's taking a kick in. You're looking for

you're looking for logic Chris you're looking for logic here and why would you expect logic because it's all about the heart and the feeling. I got one at the weekend there which I was absolutely staggered by, I was doing the commentary with the Liverpool game. And Salah came on the ball and he got booed by a load of the Chelsea fans and I went, what? Where did that come from? I really couldn't get it.

Yes, he played for Chelsea but it wasn't really Chelsea. You know, it wasn't his fault he moved on from Chelsea, was it? Exactly. If it helps, Pat. I remember being at the Emirates Cup, the most prestigious preseason tournament, in I think 2013 it was the summer that Gonzalo Hidwayin had gone from Real Madrid to Napoli, and there'd been a lot of rumours that Arsenal weren't for him, but they weren't. And Napoli played in that tournament and Hidwayin came on and got booed by the Emirates because a club that

Had never tried to sign him hadn't signed him That was the that was the high point for me of people being booed. He must have been completely baffled Jamie Carriger's written in the Telegraph Pat what is gained in the short term? Can be sacrificed in terms of a legacy once a career is over. And though it might sound like a cliche to say you are part of a family, once you are loved by the fans of the biggest, most storied clubs, it is true.

Did you worry when leaving clubs what your legacy would be at those clubs? No, I don't think I was that self-indulgent, to be honest. You have your time, you do your best you can, and if it's over for whatever reasons, you hope you're quite liked, you hope. And it was in my mind, certainly when I went back to Chelsea

after going to Everton, and I hadn't explained why I was leaving. And they got relegated that season, Chelsea. So it looked like I was the official rat running off the ship. But in reality, that is not what was happening. But I didn't want to go out and try and turn the club against the fans against their club

rather than getting a bit miffed with me. I mean, forget that. It's kind of a weird perspective. You can't control what the people think about you, can you? However you do it. If you behave in a certain way, in a respectful way, I think fans generally get it in the end. And generally that's always been the case. But now and again it doesn't happen.

And I think the point that Cara was making is actually a very good one. It's about time. In time, eventually fans will understand and it will take a lot of that time sometimes. Now Hurt will hurt for a wee while, but they'll get over it. Trent will not always be disliked even by the ones that are miffed with him just now. It'll move on and when his career's finished, he'll still be remembered as one of the very, very good, if not greats of Liverpool. And I have one final thing to say. You talk about him being one of the greats of Liverpool,

and Paul Joyce in The Times has written a really good article on this, and he talks about, in his exec box at Anfield, there's a chart on the wall that chronicles Alexander-Arnold's progress, right from his first session at the club's academy to captain in the under-16s, his debut first goal, nominator for the Ballon d'Or. But what's interesting, he says,

is that there are 38 landmarks in total on this, Chris, and that takes him through to December 2020. And that is part of the issue, he says, because by the age of 23 years and 219 days, he'd done it all with Liverpool. Champions League, UEFA Super Cup, Club World Cup, Premier League, League Cup, NFA Cup. The youngest player at an English club ever to complete that set. Job done. It's absolutely extraordinary what he's achieved and now he's made a choice, he's done everything and he wants to move on and

you know what he's entitled to do that and I think most players if they could have sort of trodden in his boots would have made the exactly the same decision as he has done. Saturday was, well it might not have been if you were involved in it, but for the neutral it was a brilliant day in the Championship and League Two in particular there was only one thing to be to be sorted in League One but the Championship with the relegation situation, the title and the playoff places still up for grabs. It went right down to the wire. Leeds scoring in second half injury time to take the title ahead of Burnley, both finishing on

100 points. The playoff places taken by Sheffield United, Sunderland, Coventry and Bristol City. Sheffield United and Sunderland already knew that they would be in the playoffs. Coventry beat Middlesbrough 2-0 to take fifth. Bristol City started the day in fifth. They ended in sixth after a two-hole draw against Preston, although at one stage they dropped out after they fell 2-0 down at home to Preston. I'm delighted to say Bristol City manager Liam Manning joins us. I said for the neutral it was

enjoyable. I think that will be fair, won't it Liam? Yeah I've had more relaxing afternoons but yeah it was a special afternoon. Like I say it was an extreme rollercoaster of emotions throughout the whole game and it's probably the beauty of the championship. I think you can't you just can't predict any of the results at the weekend. They're so hard to call but that's probably why it's such an exciting division. When you go 2-0 down and I'm guessing you are aware of what might have been going on elsewhere, I think it was Blackburn that nipped into the playoff spot ahead of you at that

stage because they were leading at Sheffield United. How hard is it to keep one eye on the situation but also concentrate on what's in front of you? Yeah, I think to be honest I wasn't aware at any point we were out of it because it happened quite early. I think the bit for me was I asked at half time and then Chris Hogg, my assistant, was on the radio to the people, to one of our guys that sits upstairs and watches the game and codes it, etc.

So they were getting the results and feeding it back and it was kind of like if we need to do anything drastic, feed it in to us. And the hardest bit was probably for the players. I mean, a few of them run over during the game in sort of the last five, ten minutes saying, right, what are the scores, what do we need to do? The answer was pretty much, we're okay at the minute, but if you can score, it'll help. It was one of those which was, you know, because obviously Blackburn, if they'd scored late on, it would have changed everything for us. So it was very much for the lads, just play the game, what's in front of you, you know,

keep trying to score, but you don't have to be reckless and leave ourselves open to concede at the same point. So yeah, we had the information coming in but the biggest bit of most of my energy went on to the lads and doing what we needed to. Was it also to remind them as well that your home form has actually been your foundation, hasn't it? Since boxing days, since the turn of the year really. Yeah, we've really enjoyed playing there and I think it's, well I've done 18 months now at the club, it hasn't always been like that. I think we've had to work really hard to earn that with the fans.

I think there's obviously been a large element of frustration at the club over the years. So we've had to work really hard and I think the players and the staff have done a fantastic job to create a real connection with the fans and make it a difficult place for teams to come. We really enjoy playing there and especially the last five or six games at home, West Brom, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Norwich, some of the really tight games with clubs around us at the time. The fans have played a fantastic part in getting their lads over the line. Like I said, we enjoy playing there.

It's interesting you mentioned the frustration at the club. Is that to do with the fact that they did have that long spell where they were kind of close to the playoffs, close to promotion, then it kind of seemed to drift away? Did you detect that early on when you arrived? Yeah, elements of that. And I'm quite, I'm sure I wasn't probably the sexiest of appointments at the time from where I was at. So I'm fully aware of that. That's not an issue for me. I'll always, it will come down to, I heard you guys talking earlier about time and proving myself with the work I do and how I come across. I can come out and talk great stuff in the

media, but if the team don't play well or don't get the results, you're never going to get people on board. So for me, yeah, you could sense it around the place. Everybody talks around it. The only city not to have had Premier League football is something I've heard a million times. So for me, of course you can feel it. But it's going through a process to understand how do you build hope again, how do you, dreams, ambition, that for me is the important bit. That's the bit why we love football, right? I think it, and we live in a world, unfortunately, where everybody's so fixated on outcomes and where you get into that you kind of forget a little bit to live in the present and enjoy the moment. So I think what we've worked hard to is kind of get the fans turning up and enjoying what

they watch first and foremost. And the lads have played some outstanding football this season and I've really enjoyed watching lots of it. There's obviously is, you know, in the championship being such a marathon, there's been some tough games along the way and some tough experiences. But that again, I think you have to use that to bring everybody together. I think like I said the players deserve a huge amount of credit for the work they've done over the course of the season to create that excitement and buzz amongst the fans. Liam, you mentioned Bristol City never being in the Premier League, but because of the season you have had, do you feel the fact that you've exceeded expectations going into these playoffs now?

Which way around is it? Is the pressure off because you've done so well or is the pressure on because of Bristol City not being in the Premier League before? How are you viewing that personally? I think there's a couple of ways Chris looking at it. I think there's a bit when you look at what you're competing against naturally, you know, the size of the club, the history, the budgets, when you look at the spends in, you know, we didn't sign anybody in January, we let three players go. We look at the other

clubs we're competing against and the money that was spent speaks volumes. It doesn't always mean that you have to spend money. I think we've got a really tight-knit group, a strong culture, people feel close to the team, people know they're going to play and get opportunities. I think we're fully aware that we're probably the underdogs when you look at what we're up against. At the same point, what we have to then call on is the experiences we've had playing those teams this season. We've had really tight games with them. Sheffield United lost at home but drew away and performed extremely well in both of the

games. Sunderland obviously down to 10 men recently, so it maybe skews the context of the game a little bit. But again, up their place we drew on one, conceding really late. And then Coventry probably earlier in the year we were probably the better team in the first game they were the better team in the second game so I think it's one those we're quite realistic what we're competing against but at the same point you know we believe in ourselves the work that we've done and that you know ultimately championship football when you step on the pitch you know the lads when we're at it I think can compete with anybody. You know what I was looking at you being positive and then the moment there Liam and I was thinking

about your results at home recently lots of two ones so you've not had any relaxing games those haven't been relaxing and then this weekend wasn't relaxing at all. Gonna give you a wee warning, it's going to get worse. Because I've been involved three times in playoffs in that division. I'll give you your cup finals, I'll give you your Scotland and England games. They are horrible, they are just the most one. Do you think you can stay in the moment for even this? Because it is the most important and the most difficult games you can play. Yeah and the group are great in terms you can be really honest and tough with them. I think that's the beauty of this group. They're desperate to get better and learn and improve and

and they're kind of hungry for that. So we've actually used the whole year to kind of reflect on all the experiences we've had and you know the last two games the pressure's been on because the the outcome is definitive. Before that, the games were close but it wasn't make or break. We've spoken a little bit about the last couple of games, the pressure being on, how have we handled that. Naturally, with the players that we recruit, on the start of their journey, quite young on, we haven't got bundles of players that are hugely experienced, which can bring a fearlessness and excitement, but it also brings an element probably of nerves etc. So we've kind of spoken about that, the lads are

fully aware of it and I think the biggest bit we've said is just be brave to us. Do us, I think ultimately whatever the outcome, have no regrets, be able to look back and know that you've given everything. And yeah, for me it comes down to our behaviours and how we approach the game. You are right though. Sorry Mark, sorry Liam. So in the first day of pre-season, so you've been in 18 months and sort of stabilised things at the end of last season. But in the first day of pre-season, what were your expectations then in terms of your prospects? I find it's always a tough one that Chris, because it's so far away that it's almost,

there's a challenge of course, we always finish as high as we can. It sounds a bit of a cop out, but for me in terms of, the aim wasn't to finish top six, the aim was to almost try and sort of create history, do something that hasn't been done before at the club. And that for me is kind of the biggest vision that you can have.

You know, when you spend many years at Ipswich and when you look at Ipswich, they've been up to the Premier League before and they've done it. We haven't. So again, I think the you know, we've kind of spun that a little bit of we're able to do something here that's never been done. And that for me is for the lads, for everything we're trying to do, you know, should excite people. And then off the back of that, the whole thing that we've kind of everything we're trying to do, should excite people. And then off the back of that, the whole thing that we've kind of gone after this year is

around having a cup final mindset. So I'm sure the careers, you gentlemen, how do you go on FA Cup coming up in the weekend or a player final at the weekend? What does that week leading into it look like? Everyone will go above and beyond. The energy around the place would be uber positive and people will be bubbly. You've got people that would be going all out to compete to get in the team. And we had the chat with the lads, how do you bottle that up and roll that out 46 times? Obviously now in this case 48 times. So it's almost that

practice and that mindset of every single game is a cup final, which we've gone quite hard off, this season for example, and what it then forces you to do is once one game is done, you can't carry a hangover, you can't carry you know the you know getting too high after a result so it's how do we bottle that up and go all right it's a new week that's the energy that we need around the place and we've got to try to spin that which you know has worked well for us this year. Liam obviously I suspect you probably would have preferred not to be 2-0 down on the final day but given that you were and you drew

that gives you a bit of momentum going to the playoffs and it's it's tempting it's rare obviously for the team that finishes sixth to be promoted it's not happened for a while I think. 2009-10 was the last in the championship and that was Blackpool. And Blackpool were then brilliant fun in the Premier League. The um but you look at Coventry they've kind of not limped but they're not they're not in great form Sunderland's forms been abysmal ever since they basically secured that position. And as much as Sheffield United Chris Wilder has said frequently that you look at Leeds and Burnley putting up 100 point totals, that Sheffield United were in that race right until the very end, you'd expect there to be a little bit of disappointment that they haven't been promoted automatically. Does that give you a little bit of momentum to kind of build on despite maybe being

in terms of the table like the outsiders in the playoffs Yeah, I think for me is choosing what you carry forward. I think that's the biggest bit with everything so of course, I think not just from the weekend, I think it was a Kind of epitomized our on-pitch culture for me at the weekend that we never give up We always believe you know right up until the end the behaviours that you find, no matter the score, whatever it is, it almost has to be ingrained in you. That's what you are as a professional and as a competitor. Until the final whistle is gone and you're told otherwise, you give absolutely everything. So obviously that was one at the weekend. But even before that, I think we have to take all

the season. I think you have to take the good experiences, the not so good experiences, all of it into these final two games to have a real big push in, a game against a club that have obviously, last season in the Premier League and have invested heavily in a hugely experienced squad. We have to be excited by that challenge and that's the bit, going through it with no fear

and going, like I said, be the best versions of us. And as you said, enjoy it as well. Well done, Liam. Go well. Really pleased for you. Good luck. Good luck. Good luck, Liam. Thank you, Liam. Crystal City manager on the Monday Night Club. I mean, you do, Chris. You look at the sides in the playoffs. There is a story around each of them. And I'm not just talking about the form that Rory mentioned that the other three are going in on. But yes, Chris Wilder and having to rebuild Sheffield United a bit, but I don't think many people

would have predicted Sunderland where they were. Frank Lampard had to win the fans round at Coventry and said as much afterwards. He said whether I was universally wanted, you never will be in football, but because of social media, you know that there are people who question you. But to be a manager, you have to have a tough skin. Credit to Mark Robbins, because what he's done here is build the club up, do things that I can never do here from League Two up here and play a final and an FA Cup semi-final. Full respect to that. There's a story around each of them, whoever goes up.

Yeah, there is. I think Coventry are really interesting in, I think around the time when they made the change. I think we all felt maybe that would have been a bit harsh because of what Mark Robbins had achieved at Coventry and built the club FA Cup semi-final, you know, that really should have been in the final and didn't quite get there. It was quite a courageous decision to bring Frank Lampard in then, but they brought him in early enough and they've had that bit of a bounce, well more than a bounce because of it. Reading an article I think Frank was talking about the way that he wanted to play on the front foot, the players needed to be a bit fitter, sometimes you just need a fresh voice and

they've really benefited from that. I think Sheffield United, my memory serves me rightly, earlier on in the season I thought they were a stick-on for automatic promotion but they've dropped off and Sunderland are really interesting because the wheels have come off completely there but at the start of the season you wouldn't have given them a prayer of getting into the play-off. Change of manager, I'm not so sure many people were too familiar with Regis Labrice when he came in. You go back to last season and they went through I think three managers in total, Mowbray and then they had the mad Michael Beale experiment and he ended up going so they've had a rebuild now as such and no, they have really exceeded expectations. So it is really difficult to call.

It's not mad to appoint a former Rangers manager. You've not always lied about Michael Beale chapters. Michael Beale once said something that wasn't very nice to Chris. I don't know whether they saw what happened at Rangers, most people did and that was a strange appointment. Well, you can do badly at one place and still do well somewhere else, can't you? Otherwise lots of managers would never get another job, Chris. Like you.

No, that's fair, but that's two places now. Pat, how do you view it? Said well the first thing you need to know if you're a manager the worst thing you can do for job security in the Championship is get promoted. Yes Especially by the playoffs, but we don't want to say absolutely absolutely. I don't think that actually applies to Liam We're Bristol. I don't think it does because I think there's an understanding the job He's done whatever happened if they got there. But they are great stories. I think Coventry, to me, is gigantic. Not because of Frank Lampard thing, just because of the history of the last 10, 15, 20 years. It's been extraordinary. At that club, sometimes you don't think it's going to

survive. You don't know whether they're playing off the same. All the things that they've gone through to find themselves on the cusp of it again yeah they're all extraordinary stories. And also Pat, sorry Pat, just on that the club's fans have broken the home attendance record three times since Lampard took over. It's quite often the case where a club goes through really really difficult times either they can the fans can just dwindle away or else to get absolutely behind the club and do everything to stick with them and they've been waiting for this for a long long time Coventry City fans so you know for every one of

the clubs and it's always the case it would be fantastic for them to get to the to the top level when they got there and when they get there it's going to be a different one because each one of them is going to find it incredibly difficult and Probably include Leeds and Burnley in that as well. Yeah, I'm not sure who you'd make favorites finally Rory for this I mean it probably has to be Sheffields United really because just because of the number of points they got because they finished third Because of the you know, they were Premier League last season, but I the playoffs are because of the you know, they were Premier League last season but I the playoffs are

chaotic and unpredictable by their nature and funny if this sounds very sort of romantic chapters I sometimes think the story is kind of what what drives teams and it feels like the team that misses out on automatic promotion having Like Chris said but seen relatively nailed on for it relatively recently That does seem to carry a psychological weight and it wouldn't surprise me to see Yeah, bristol city or coventry kind of come through. Does they feel a bit there's a bit more positive energy You said or was it mark who said it's 2009 10 the last Six place doesn't happen very often fifth. I don't know the last the last thing to finish fifth and get promoted was but it'll be more Read yeah

I'm not sure. We'll be getting you in for a motivational I've actually been in both I've been in thought and I've been in sex and in both situations and I would prefer sex I prefer coming from sex you honestly don't feel any pressure at all you think oh we sneak that yeah we've got another chance whereas you're for third you're completely and utterly gutted because You honestly don't feel any pressure at all. You think, oh we sneaked that, we've got another chance. Whereas you're for third, you're completely and utterly gutted because you think, if it wasn't for these playoffs we'd be in the top level now. So there is that kind of initial

psychological feeling before the game, but we're in the game start, you don't care. I'm Aaron. Hello and welcome to the Inside Track, the Formula 1 podcast with exclusive access to Red Bull Racing. I'm broadcaster and Formula 1 fan Rick Edwards. And I'm sports journalist Matt Magendie. Each week we break down the latest F1 news, the backstage gossip and who's under pressure. This week Matt sits down with team principal Christian Horner. You don't want to miss that. Watching him drive the car is a little bit like Roger Federer at the top of his game.

So he'll be here driving for Red Bull next season. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the Inside Track, wherever you get your podcasts. Paul and I'm Jovi Makenna. And on Wednesdays on the Football Daily we bring you 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Life Sport. As we'll get stuck into the latest from the Football League and beyond. I can't put a finger on why we weren't as energetic as we usually are. What they've got there is genuinely good people that really care about that football club and the fans have been huge in terms of the backing that they've given to this group.

That's 72 Plus, the EFL podcast only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Football Daily podcast with Mark Chapman. Let's start this section with Harry Kane, who's won the first major trophy of his career, aged 31, with Bayern securing the Bundesliga. Does it make you think differently about the England captain, Chris Sutton? Oh, yes. Does it make you think differently about the England captain Chris Sutton? Oh yes, yeah he had to get that team trophy. Some people were saying he had to Chris. Well who?

Those people who said he hadn't won a trophy. Yeah but that's just not, I mean he's still been an incredible strike, hasn't he? For, you know, the clubs and country. I think he's up to 80 goals now, isn't he? In two seasons in the Bundesliga. Look at his record for Tottenham. I'm not going to say he carried Tottenham because I had other good players as well. But, you know, he's not just a goal scorer. We know that he's got a fantastic football brain and yeah, I mean look, he's ticked that box now, but

even had he ended up or finished his career with no team trophy, he still would have had a magnificent career and rightly be viewed as one of the great strikers of his generation. But there may have been an asterisk, Pat Nevin, because some people would have used that as a stick with which to beat him. Yes, I think quite a lot of people would have. I don't think any football people would have. I don't think any footballers would have, because we absolutely know what he's done in the game. And yeah, for every stat you can say limited number of trophies, we can throw back stats of the amount of goals he scored,

the amount of goals he scored per game, how well he's done as a creative player and adapted player. The fact that his improvement levels, when he first came to Tottenham, went through the roof. Sometimes we like to praise ourselves because we can see a player coming through. I remember watching him at start thinking, not sure about that, you know. And then wow, just absolute wow. So yeah, there will be people who have a dig at Harry for a limited amount of trophies.

But I would argue back, A, with the stats of his goals, but B, with the, wow, how about the time he stayed with Tottenham when he could have easily went to another club where he could have mopped up As many trophies as he liked so no, I don't think that holds water at all But from football people that's we don't think that way No It probably holds water even less when you realize that Stanley Matthews won his first time trophy at the age of 38, which was the epic of with Blackpool. You'd never have put an asterisk against Stanley Matthews, would you? No, and I think Tom Finney never won anything, didn't he? Don't think Tom Finney won a trophy.

You must have googled that. No, I think I saw it somewhere. I didn't do it deliberately. I didn't realise that. But apparently Tom Finney never won a trophy. So it's not a necessary qualification for greatness, but I think Harry Kane will be pleased that he's won one. I don't think that's ridiculous to say. It is ridiculous to say. I mean, you would think Harry Kane would be pleased to have won a trophy. No, really? I think Harry Kane's probably quite happy to have won a trophy. No, really? Quite happy to have won a trophy. I know what Chris and Pat mean, that people in football wouldn't use it to diminish his achievement, but I think to Harry Kane to retire without a trophy would have seemed

quite sad, to be honest. So I think he's, it's probably, I'm certain that going to Bayern in part the appeal of Bayern Munich was, there is a pretty good chance that I'll win trophies here. I think there was a part of that. I think, like Pat said, it's great that he stayed with Spurs for so long. It's something he should be lauded for. But there's no question that he did not want to retire without any collective honours. I've got confirmation that he was happy to have won a trophy. He said, what a night, what a celebration with the players, with the staff. I'm sure everyone's feeling it a little bit this morning and here's the confirmation Rory, I feel amazing.

Right, that's good to have. It's a relief in many ways, I was worried about him. No, but I think that to him it was important. So it's all very well said, no one would, and I take it as I say, I take it very well. To every player it's important to win trophies, not just Harry Kane. Exactly. And Harry Kane has achieved enough that he clearly felt that was something that was missing. So he made a move, and yeah, as Chappell says,

he should have drawn a lot earlier, and I'm sure that lots of people will have said he should have drawn a lot earlier. I think the fact that he stayed is wonderful, and it kind of proof of the idea that one trophy with spurs, I think would have meant more to him than a number kind of harvested elsewhere. But he clearly didn't want to have that

kind of around his neck anymore. So- Do you know what, there is another asterisk you're talking about, you're talking about he might not have won the trophies and you get the asterisk. What about that asterisk beside players who've got massive trophies and they weren't very good? And there's a lot of them out there as well.

Come on Pat, name a couple. Absolutely. We know it, there's players that have just, you know, they've got, they've basically been makeweights in a team that were, you know, they were a good team, but you know, they weren't as good a player as Harry Kane. So it's a funny way to kind of gauge someone's career. But it is unusual, I think. Not unprecedented, as I say, Tom Finney. But it is unusual.

Tom Finney, so Tom Finney, and this is where our producer Rory has managed to make me feel very old, because Tom Finney won the home championship 10 times and he didn't know what that was which I'm guessing is... Come on. That is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all playing each other. That is not a canonical major trophy, that's all I'd say. Okay, well he won it 10 times. Well fair play to Tom, I don't want to kind of insult Tom Finney. That would be a ridiculous stance to take. But it is rare to have a player of Kane's quality who, who has not previously won any

major honors. That is, that is a rare thing to happen. How would you describe the relationship between Bayern and Kane then, Rory? Is it, has it become more than a marriage of convenience? Because at the start it was elite club needs elite goalscorer, elite goalscorer needs to find a club where he'll win something. Yeah, I think, I mean I don't think he loves them as much as he loved Tottenham and I think there's an awareness in Bavaria that maybe he kind of, that Kane went towards the end of his career, he's not someone that they got at his absolute

peak but I think there is yeah I think it will mean something to Kane without question he's there's been question marks at various points this season over whether Bayern look a bit more fluid when he's not in the team there's like a stylistic question mark over Kane I think for some of the fans but it's very hard to argue with his return as Pat says his return has been astonishing the thing the main thing that I think, for some of the fans, but it's very hard to argue with his return. As Pat says, his return has been astonishing. The main thing that I think about Harry Kane and Bayern Munich is actually something Joe Hart said a few weeks ago when I think we were talking about Man City, and he said that it's very easy to look at those clubs who kind of

harvest championships in industrial quantities and say, you know, it's just the same old same old, it won't mean as much, but because, you know, because they win so many trophies, we might have been talking about Man City and the FA Cup in actual fact. But the amount of work and effort and talent that it takes to get to that level and then to sustain it means that they are kind of putting so much in all of the time. And I feel that way a little bit about buying generally and Cain that it's easy to say oh you know Bayern Munich always win the Bundesliga but that takes a huge amount of talent and skill and industry and hard work and all that stuff and it is richly deserved for Harry Kane as it is for Bayern Munich.

Go on Pat. Now I've only been to Bayern three or four times in the time that Kane's been there and I've just basically it's been a reflection of a deep love of him when I was there. Because the team weren't doing particularly well and he was kind of holding them up as much as anything else. So I think you know

they realised, these numbers are great over there. They're absolutely fantastic. English people, I'm an outsider slightly, so English people have a kind of look, they love Harry, but I actually don't think they rate Harry Kane as highly as they should do. And the reason why, I actually think if you stick Harry Kane in Manchester City, would he score less goals than Erlen Halland did in his period of time there? I don't think so. I think Harry

Kane would have scored extraordinary numbers of goals had he been at the front of a team that is at the very top of the league and created all those chances. Do you think those around him would have scored more goals as well in the sense that his creativity might be more? Most of the way so, but you know, good players like playing with good players. And of course the thing is with Harry Kane, he is an intelligent player. He's not just a goalscorer. He did other things as well. I mean, Chris will know more about this than me, but you can go centre-forward,

but you can play off the centre-forward a lot as well. You can move with the people that are good with you. You can let somebody run by you. I can imagine Harry Kane's movement with someone like De Bruyne, that would have been extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary, because he'd have been found all the time for that period of time, Silva, you name it, all of them as well. So, you know, look at Harry Kane, yeah, talk about a lot of things,

but I think I can't bring myself to say anything negative, and I can only think of things that are incredibly positive about Harry Kane and what he's done in his career. Do you think Chris he could come back? Yeah, well why not? Where? Tottenham. Don't say Arsenal.

He loves Tottenham. No, I wouldn't. You wouldn't leave Bayern for Tottenham at the moment, would you? Well, you're looking at things negatively. If Harry Kane goes back, they'll improve on this season in the Premier League. If he loves the club that much, now he's won a team trophy, he may think it's time to come back and finish his career at Tottenham. In terms of just his… what Pat was saying about he could fit into Manchester City, and I see that is a different type of player to Haaland, of course, but it's about getting

the best out of his fit. And he is a totally different type of player to Harland. And there's been stats over Harland over the couple of seasons where he doesn't touch the ball too many times. When you have a player like Harry Kane, who is that intelligent and has that awareness, then of course, you need to utilize that. But the one thing which they both

have in common is they are both absolutely ruthless finishers. That's it from the Monday Night Club thanks to Pat and Rory and Chris thank you for listening. Hello and welcome to the Inside Track, the Formula 1 podcast with exclusive access to Red Bull Racing. I'm broadcaster and Formula 1 fan Rick Edwards. And I'm sports journalist Matt Magindy. Each week we break down the latest F1 news, the backstage gossip and who's under pressure. This week Matt sits down with team principal Christian Horner. You don't want to miss that. Watching him drive the car is a little bit like Roger Federer at the top of his game.

So he'll be here driving for Red Bull next season. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the Inside Track, wherever you get your podcasts.