Football Daily - Monday Night Club: What went wrong for Onana at Man United? And Tuchel's biggest test?

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

Kelly Cates is joined by Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Andros Townsend to address the headlines from the international break. BBC Manchester United reporter Simon Stone tells us what went wrong for Andre Onana, as we ask who becomes their new number one?BBC Football tactics correspondent Umir Irfan joins the pod to suggest how new signing Senne Lammens might fit into the Manchester United team.Hear from Harry Kane and Thomas Tuchel ahead of Tuesday's World Cup qualifier against Serbia. Is this Tuchel's biggest test so far as England manager?Plus, who was better at the age of 17- Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney? Time codes: 4'05 Andre Onana leaves Manchester United 7'47 Andros Townsend says Onana has been a "really good" goalkeeper- but his errors have been "comical" 10'16 Umir Irfan on Senne Lammens 18'27 Manchester City and the Premier League reach a settlement over rules that govern commercial deals  25'08 Who was better at the age of 17- Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney?  34'12 Harry Kane interview 45'10 Thomas Tuchel interview 50'02 Football correspondent John Murray ahead of England's World Cup qualifier

This is the Monday Nightclub with Kelly Kitts on the Football Daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday nightclub on today's show. Our Monday night club regular's Chris Sutton and the observers, Rory Smith, also joining us former England winner Andros Townsend. Evening, everyone. Evening. Hi, Kelly. Good evening.

Andros, you're joining us from new surroundings. I am indeed. I am in Kanchanaburi in Thailand, and it's 1 a.m. right now. Explain why you're in Kanchanaburi. Because I signed to play in their football team, Kanchanabori Power FC. I'm doing a year here. So, yeah, I'm having a little bit of adventure,

having some family time and playing some football as well. I love this, Andros, I think, because you've said, you know, there were options for you in Europe. But to go and do something completely different and to use this as an opportunity to kind of expand your life and expand your kind of football experience,

I think it's so interesting. Yeah, and I was in Turkey last year and I just realized that I just achieved everything I wanted to achieve in the Premier League, almost 300 appearances played for my country. I just wanted to do something that gave me a good life experience and when the Thailand offer came about, my gut just told me that I would be happy here.

So, yeah, I followed my gut and so far I'm having a great time. It's a great country, a great city and, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I don't want to be cliched and start talking about the food straight away, but I am asking you this specifically. because what was the first thing you went to look for? It was, of course, the chicken feet. And here in Asia, it's everywhere.

So the first supermarket I went into, chicken feet was everywhere. You won't see me without a coconut next to me. Yeah, it's literally dropping off the trees here. 65 pence equivalent to English money. So, yeah, the food and the drink here is amazing. Chris, chicken feet, I don't mean did you play with them? I mean, did you ever eat them? No, I mean, I used to have chickens as a youngster.

I used to have to shut them in at night and one night I've forgotten the fox got them all. So that didn't go particularly well. I'm so sorry to bring up the chickens. Yeah, no, you just took me back there. So, yeah, no, never eating chicken feet. But if it's good enough for Andros, then maybe, maybe a time I started. What is it, Andros? Is it the collagen?

Collagen, full of collagen, natural collagen. So, yeah, chicken feet, chicken wings, anything. like with low meat, high fat, connective tissue is great for the bones and the skin and all of that jazz. So yeah, got that in abundance out here, so I'm happy. Rory, I tell you who might need it at the moment is Erling Harlan. Did you see that he got hit by a bus door while he was away with Norway? I did, yeah. And he needed three stitches. He looks, I mean, I'm not sure. I don't know whether you can medicinally like prescribe chicken feet. I don't know whether we've reached that stage. That's why I said might. I feel like

that couches any of my lack of medical knowledge. Yeah, Erling definitely seek qualified help. Don't just sit off the radio. Andros, what's the football like? You know what? Actually, very surprising. It's actually a high level. I've not played since March.

So I kind of went there and thought, don't worry, a couple of training sessions. I'll be straight in the team. I'll be the best player. But they've actually got some really good players. They're starting to really invest in the football out here. So I've been pleasantly surprised. I spent the first two games on the bench because I wasn't fit. So, yeah, it's a good level.

And I'm, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing if I can help it grow as much as anything else. Am I right in thinking that Sergio O'Guero is in your squad? Sergio O'Guerre is in my squad, yes. The legend. Yeah, not that one, the other one. No. Kelly's looking puzzled. Malaysian international Sergio O'Guerreau, yeah.

I was thinking, I'm sure I would have heard of that. I'm sure I would have heard of that. Look, we're going to talk to you lots more over the coming months, because as you said, you're going to be there for a year. So we'll be able to get into that at various stages, Andros, if you're willing to chat about it but we're going to chat about England we'll hear from Thomas Tuchel

and Harry came very soon as well but first of all we're going to chat about Manchester United on the Monday Nightclub because their goalkeeper Andrea Anana has agreed to leave on a season long loan to Turkish side. Trabs on Sport now he joined Manchester United from Inter Milan only in 2023

he came in on a five-year deal it was worth 47 million pounds joining us now BBC Sport Manchester United reporter Simon Stone Simon this has been talked about and dismissed and then talked about again and then dismissed again. So what's prompted this final decision? Well, it's not playing against Sergio Aguero,

which he actually did in the post-season tour in May, which was a bit chaotic. But, yeah, I mean, look, Andreana came in. Everyton Harg had worked with him at Ajax. He came in with a specific brief to be able to play the ball short, take risky passes and replace David De Heyer, who Eric Ten Hagen concluded, couldn't play these passes. And then almost immediately, in his old Trafford debut, actually, he came out, played one of these passes, and Diogo Dalot gave the ball away immediately. He got chipped from 45 yards, and it was almost from that moment he had to rein in

the reason that he'd been brought to Manchester United in the first place then he started to make mistakes and this kind of pressure has kind of built up around him and then we've got to the end of last season he got involved in this spat with Nomania Matich around the Europa League quarter-final with Leon when he said that Manchester Night should win easily and Matich a good mate of De Heirs

took exception to that and basically called Anana, one of the worst goalkeepers that Manchester United have ever had. Anana immediately made more mistakes. They kind of rumbled through to the end of the season, but it was more or less apparent by then that Ruben Amarim had lost faith in Anana. I don't think he was particularly enamoured

with Alti Bayendir, the other option anyway, but they kind of moved into the start of this season. then both Bay and Deere and Anana made mistakes within the first few games. And I think that just crystallised minds at Manchester United that they needed to bring in another goalkeeper. Then that turned into a decision between a clear number one in Emmy Martinez, at Aston Villa, obviously, Argentina World Cup winner has won everything. An obvious number one.

Sanny Lemons has come in from, Royal Antwerp instead, not obvious number one, highly rated. And then we have this situation where Manchester United almost had four goalkeepers because they signed Tom Heaton onto a one-year extension in the summer. So something had to give. Anana has been of interest to Trabson Spore who've got a space in their squad because they sold their goalkeeper to Galatasaray. And I think Manchester United Ruben Amarim has just decided, well, someone's got to go.

There is an option to release Anana, and that is what they are going to do on loan. But that still leaves, and the question of who the Manchester United Number One is going into the Manchester Derby and then beyond that. Simon, my sort of controversial Anana opinion is, I think in the whole, he's actually been a really good goalkeeper. but I think his errors have been so comical that sort of skewed his reputation a little bit and he's kind of been made sort of a comical figure whereas in the whole, I think he's actually been okay. Do you agree with that?

I obviously watched Man United more than me or not. Yeah, look, look, I spoke to Edwin van der Starr at an ECA meeting just before the Champions League final between Inter and Manchester City. And he was so effusive in his praise for Anana. And he obviously knew him, being Chief Executive at Iax, had seen him develop and spoken to him. And then I spoke to him again after he joined Anana had joined United. And Van der Saar, again, he couldn't have been more kind of enthusiastic about how good he thought Anana was.

with respect to everybody on this call, I kind of take Edwin van der Saar. He's not somebody who shoots from the hip. He's very measured in his opinions. He doesn't go to the media and just offer opinions. And I kind of take that as a fairly decent endorsement of someone that he feels is a good goalkeeper. And there are moments within games that Anana has been excellent.

had more shocks to save than he should have had. He's made saves, but he has made mistakes, but I go back to the point that I made at the start, that the thing that he's brought in to do, he's not been able to do. And that has accentuated the mistakes because it means that the really positive aspects of his play have not been there. So I agree with you. I don't think he's a bad goalkeeper, absolutely not. I just think that the positives have not always been there to balance against the negatives,

but that is partially because of the team that he's played in and the structure has not allowed him to be the goalkeeper that he was bought to be. Simon, really good to talk to you. Thank you very much for joining us. Sam Stone bringing us the very latest on Manchester United's goalkeeping situation. But as he said, lots of questions about. about lamens, but we can get a scouting report now. Our football tactics correspondent, Amir Erfan,

has been analysing the data for the BBC Sport website. So, Amir, life has given Manchester United Lamans. Can he make lemonade? I mean, maybe in a few years' time. I'll take some time. I think, look, there's a lot to like about him, but he is a fairly young player and fairly inexperienced when you're comparing a player like him from the Belgian Pro League,

moving to the Premier League. And for me, what immediately jumped out was how good the day. data was and I think club sources have cited his data in terms of coming out for crosses and claiming them, his shot stopping numbers as well as being really impressive, you know, statistically you stopped the most goals out of any keeper in Europe last season, then I took a closer look at some of those saves and some of those situations and I think it's better to take a bit more of a measured approach. I think some of those stats probably inflate how good he is and some questions might arise when it comes to moving to a more intense league, a league

that presses very intensely when comparing his quality on the ball a league with better shooting quality and their attacking players and in his cross-claiming numbers although they were really impressive I think he stopped 13% of all crosses last season he comes so proactively for them

that from corner situations he finds himself misreading the flight of the ball and concede him from corner so there is context that has to be applied to some of those statistics for sure I think United are appreciating all of those things but with the situation as it is with Bain-Dair and Lemons as the two main keepers as it looks to be at the moment,

I think there's an opportunity for him to perhaps be the number one, but I don't think he's as ready as perhaps the numbers might suggest right away. I think what you mentioned in Amir about the kind of transferring what he did at Antwerp to United is really interesting, because it's not just the kind of the narrative, the frenzy that builds up around the goalie making mistakes for a club of that size. It's also, and Bindier's a brilliant example of this, the opposition sent to weakness.

So Arsenal clearly went into that game thinking just lob it on his head, see what happens. Someone will get in the way. We know Arsenal liked those set-piece situations they sort of manipulate them as best they can. But their approach was very much, in a way that it wasn't at Anfield. Declan Rice wasn't trying to do that to Allison

because they worked out correctly. You probably have to keep the ball away from Canate Van Dyke and Allison, whereas with United, it was right. Just aim it at Biondeer's head and see what happens. And it worked. They got the doll, Califiori, sort of... There's a foul restoring.

to be honest Chris I think it was a foul but I don't think we should relitigate that what I think is really interesting to me about what you mentioned is there has been always this perception that United are a little bit behind the curve with data yeah do you in terms of kind of

overestimating the data is that because the quality of player taking the shots in Belgium is lower than it would be in the Premier League well I think with data in general United are now trying to kind of build up their data analytics team, I think just generally they're a bit behind in terms of the models that they're using

and they're trying to kind of use the data. I think Ogarte is somebody who looked really good in the data, but when you were contextualizing his performance before he joined, I didn't like what I saw in terms of how that would transfer as a fit. And that's the only reason why I'm a little bit worried about the signing, even though I like what he's done in terms of a shot stopping, just because if you're going from a kind of one-to-one sort of data approach, taking what someone's done in one league and trying to map it onto the Premier League,

you're going to run into some issues in general. Look, with all leagues, there's going to be a transferability issue. There's certain shots that are not as good. If you're not facing a higher quality opponent, there's certain situations you're going to face less of. In the Premier League, you might face more clear one-on-one chances. And if you're not a top one-on-one shot-stopper, then that's a weakness that might get exposed.

So I certainly agree that there is a quality discrepancy, but you've got to take that into context because you've seen keep a sign from leagues not in Europe's top five leagues and also being able to kind of showcase their quality and develop as well. So it's not, you know, a complete rule, but I do think it has to certainly be taken into consideration. I mean, Rory, you slammed the Turkish league and they have slammed the Belgian league basically saying that they're all useless at shooting there, didn't you?

Not useless at shooting just because they're Belgian, Chris. I want to stress that. I'm just saying that's the way it sounded to me. I'm not criticising Bell. That's a counting metric. And Andrews will note that I've been very polite about the Thai League. There's been no question about it over the quality of football in Thailand. Yeah, but the gloves are off for the Turkish League now he's left, don't they?

That was an awkwardness from last season that I'd like to leave in last season. Yeah, let's leave it. But it's one of the things that clubs really struggle with is working out what the data that they see in, particularly outside. Europe's top five leads, but I think fully of increasingly within even Italy and Spain, trying to work out what that looks like in the Premier League. And if you look over the course of the summer, I think Premier League clubs spent a third of the money they spent, which was a record three billion pounds, a third of it stayed in England. Because the top six, the traditional top six have clearly worked out, the best practice for working out if a, if a player is going

to succeed at your club, is have they already played in the Premier League? That's the most important thing. The next biggest market was Germany, which is where they feel is the closest analog for the Premier League. You know, it's physical, everyone just runs up and down constantly, high pressure, all that stuff. It's a much closer match than, say, Seria, where it's slower. It might be more tactical, but it's slower. And it's interesting with goalkeepers in particular, because you probably could look at a

goalie in anywhere in Europe and say, well, look, his shot stopping figures are really impressive. But at that point, you're relying on your scouts being able to go and say, well, actually, if you look at the types of shot he faced, even though the XG on those shots is this, you know, a lot of it is, maybe the finishes weren't as reliably good as they would be in one of Europe's top five leagues.

Maybe, as Zuma says, maybe he's not especially good on one-on-one shots or a particular type of shot. He is good on one-on-one shots, by the way. He is good. He is good. He is good. But in the Belgian league,

the quality of one-on-one shots isn't as good as it. Well, it's not. It ultimately isn't. The reliability of the finishes in the Belgian lead with maybe one or two exceptions won't be as to as it isn't the Premier League. It just won't be because of the way the money works

to take all the best players from Europe into England. In the same way as the finishing in Belgium won't be as good as it is in Germany. I haven't said all of that. Chris, I'm not saying it's the right way. I think we should reintroduce foreign player rules so clubs all over Europe can have talent. But the way things are at the moment,

the talent goes up towards the major leads. And that is the test for Lammons, is whether that data holds now that he's made that step up. But also... Go on, Chris. Sorry, Kelly. So, you know, with regards to the way you've described him,

you know, if you're a Manchester United fan, I think you could be fairly positive about this. But, you know, going back to other things we've talked about, this is all going to be about temperament, isn't it? In terms of how he performs, whether he can cope at Manchester United. And that's very difficult to measure, isn't it? Well, I think, yeah, generally it is quite difficult to measure.

think you've got your base set of qualities are those qualities transferable are you facing the same situations that you know the team you're going to tend to find themselves in once you've got all of that established then there's certainly temperament and human kind of factors that play a part i've seen that calm demeanor i've seen that players and teammates have mentioned that it does kind of elicit a sense of calm throughout their backline as well whether or not that momentum goes one way or another depends on the performances that it does make and then also the scrutiny, how does they deal with that next level of scrutiny? And that's an unknown, which is why teams like to opt for players in the same league, for sure.

Thank you, Amir, who came in with all the facts, all the states, all the stats and all the data, is what I was trying to say. Manchester United's best keeper, says Ben from Bristol, is currently doing great things at Bristol City and Radic V-Tech. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's with us, he said. And before we move on from Manchester, on the blue side, Manchester City in the Premier League, have reached a settlement in their dispute over the rules that govern commercial deals. This is separate from the other allegations against Manchester City. So Rory, in a minute or less if you can manage, what's happened and what does it mean? So they've settled, it's Manchester City's second complaint, second challenge to the Associated Party transaction rules,

which are basically the rules that govern whether owners can do deals with companies that have some sort of relationship with them outside of football. also Manchester City, whose owner is Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al-Nayan. In a personal capacity, not in his capacity, as I think Deputy Prime Minister or certainly a state official member of the royal family of Abu Dhabi. There will be a connection, various connections to Etihad Airways, who sponsored the shirt and the stadium. City wanted to do a deal with Etihad, which the Premier League said, I think, in 2023,

was above market value. They thought it wasn't reflective of how much they'd get with a company that wasn't linked to Abu Dhabiades. Debbie. City challenged it once and recorded kind of a minor victory, I think. It depends who you ask. They kind of forced the Premier League to reassess certain other aspects that made life. They weren't really related to City, but made life a bit harder for other clubs.

And I think in closing that loophole, that was the right thing to do, just there was a bit of a loophole that other clubs were able to exploit. They then challenged it when the Premier League rewrote the rules. The Premier League said these rules are now watertight. We're happy with these. This is all great. City challenged them again. That was a few months ago.

What's happened today is they've basically compromised. So I think both sides may well claim a victory, but they have compromised. Manchester City have said that the APT rules, as they have been written, are fine by them. They're not going to complain. I think there is an expectation that this means city's deals will be approved by the Premier League. So kind of everyone wins, no one really loses. I think the big thing, and this might be wrong, but it's my instinctive reaction, is that it's a fairly major problem avoided, because if City had won,

or if they continue to challenge the APT rules, it might have led somewhere down the line to those rules just been thrown out altogether. And if clubs can do deals of whatever value with companies that are linked to their owners, there is no point having any financial control. So I think the main thing from today is that the principle

that there should be some sort of financial regulations within the Premier League that holds. So it's not a complete kind of do what you like, who cares, Whether it's that significant or not to anybody, it's probably good for City, not sure it's particularly good for anybody else. And the fact that the loopholes were closed a few months ago, it makes things fairer, but it's not great for anyone involved, particularly other than people who like sporting integrity. So just 140 charges to go? Just the other business to go, Andros yet.

We'll get an answer to that. presumably at some point before the sun consumes the earth, but there are no guarantees on that. I mean, look, we've got, that that is all still very much to be decided, and it is worth reemphasising that. And I know we've gone way over the minute that I suggested at the beginning, but in for a penny, let's just crack on. It's just such a fascinating subject. That's what it is. It's just people love talking about it. The other thing to point out is it saved a lot of money in legal fees, because that's one of the things that's a real sticking point and is a real cause for concern in terms of the other charges that Manchester City face.

Yeah, so the Premier League's legal bills, Martin Ziegler in The Times has covered this brilliantly throughout. The Premier League legal bills are skyrocketing. And I think a lot of clubs are unhappy about it because that's all money that could be going into their pockets, but instead it's going to the lawyers. And the 115 charges case has been going on for two years, I think, something like that. It's like a long, long time.

And I'm reticent to kind of get involved. It depends who you blame because you can say that the Premier League has constructed, the Red Cartel has constructed these horrible rules to persecute the oppressed rulers of various nation states and that they shouldn't be kind of trying to reinforce their horrible corrupt practices. Or you can say it's probably not great for a sporting competition that one of the participants in that sporting competition doesn't really like the rules and wants to change them so they suit them. Which of those values would you pass down to your children?

Would be my position? Who would you blame, Rory? I think the Premier, yeah, the Premier League probably deserves some culpability for how long it's taken, I guess. I don't want to bad mouth lawyers generally, but I suppose if you ask people who charge by the hour to take their time, they probably will. That would be my general advice there. But ultimately, I mean, I think it will depend on what is. found and you just hope that in the end there is an answer that gives us all closure, whether that city are in the clear or they're not, whatever it is, rather than some sort

of patched together job. The APT case, as much as I think city did have a point with the initial complaint which was to do with shareholder loans, I do think that sets a dangerous precedent of if there's an element, all of this only exists by agreement. You know, the clubs all have to agree on what the rules are. It's the same as offside. You can't have one. one team that wants to say, well, look, actually, we think there should have to be three people between the attacker and the goal. That's what we think is fairer. You have to have rules governing a sporting competition. And even if they don't suit everybody, you kind of have to agree with them and go by them. Otherwise, the whole thing has no point. So I think

with the APT one, it struck me as city throwing their weight around to intimidate the Premier League, if I'm completely honest. They had a fair point, and it's good that that loophole has been closed. It's better that they've reached a compromise now and that we have accepted the principle of financial regulation. On the Football Daily podcast, The Women's Football Weekly. With me, Ellen White. Ellen White coming forward for England,

and there is the second. And I'm Eden Haynes, with some of the biggest names in the WSL, joining us every week to discuss everything that's happening in the women's game. Right after the World Cup, got told, we're going to America. I thought, amazing. 10 days in training by meniscus and the next day they flew to America Block 10 to 6 yards out, tell them why.

The Women's Football Weekly podcast. New episodes every Wednesday. Subscribe to the Football Daily on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday nightclub with Kelly Kitts on the Football Daily podcast. We are going to be talking about England very shortly. We'll hear from Harry Kane. But the debate that's been on social media this week

involves two other England forwards. The question has been asked. Who was better at the age of 17? Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney? So Michael Owen went on social media and he said this. At 17 I scored 18 Premier League goals winning the Golden Boot. Waza scored six. At 18 I again scored 18 goals again winning the golden boot and coming fourth in the Ballondor. Waza scored nine. In our opening seven seasons, Waza didn't outscore me once. 117 goals versus 80. which time I became the second youngest Ballandoor winner ever. Injuries hindered me from then on while he sustained his level. Therefore, he'll go down as a better player than me. But at 17, please. Why do I get the feeling that Michael Owen had those stats to hand while he went to put that out on social media? Wayne Rooney's response was quite humble on the latest episode of the Wayne Rooney podcast. It said, Michael and I are very different players. I used to go out on the street and pretend to be Michael Owen even though he played for Liverpool. which is a very sweet answer, I think.

But Michael Owen, he did a podcast with Jamie Carriger a few years ago where he was asked about, you know, at 17, how good were you? And he said, at 17, I was the best player in the world. And I take into account all the young Brazilian players, all the young players of South America, all over Europe, all over the world. I was the best young 17-year-old player at my time. I do admire that level of confidence. Is it accurate?

Well, if you want me to go first, there's nothing like a bit of self-confidence, a bit of self-praise, just patting yourself on the back. I think, you know, in fairness, it's Michael Owen has, you know, obviously got that opinion of himself. I think it's better when it comes from other people, that opinion, and you're asking him as a bit of play. What if you feel that you aren't, because of his injuries, what's what the sort of underlying tone of that tweet is, that because of injuries, he, he feels as the, though he's judged by the latter stages of his career rather than the player he was at his peak and so if

no one else is going to bang the drum he's going to bang his own. I don't think he needs to. I don't know what Andros and Rory think I don't think he needs to bang the drum you know everybody knows what a great player he was when he first you know went into that Liverpool team

and you know he had that blistering pace. He was renowned for that He was a, you know, a brilliant finisher. But I think, was it Wayne Rooney who said they were different types of players? I think that's, you know, that's the sort of, you know, the obvious thing. And, you know, a great point from him. They were different types of players. Michael Owen was an out-and-out center forward, superb pace, wonderful finisher.

Rudy was slightly different in the way that he could play. He could play a number of different roles, probably a more intelligent footballer in terms of linking things up and his, I'm not going to say it's football brain, Michael Owen had a wonderful football brain, but different types of players. Why can't we say they were both great? I just don't.

Because there's a poll on the YouTube feed. Yeah, I know, yeah. You've got to pick a horse. Chris, I'm probably better at picking horses, to be fair. I'm 34 and I just about remember Owen's sort of teenage years. 98 was sort of my first major tournament that I watch. So there's a generation younger than me who don't really remember Owen in his prime and you go on social media, especially on X and he just gets ridiculed for his career, for

his punditry, for everything. So I feel like I give Owen a pass because I feel like he needs to sort of bang on his own drum because nobody else is giving him the credit that he's, especially his early years, deserved. So I disagree. Rune is probably the only player in world football. that you don't compare yourself to as a teenager because at 18, Euro 2004, he was the best player in the world bar none, in my opinion. I remember it vividly, he was amazing. So yeah, I kind of give O in a past

because of the lack of appreciation for what he did in his early years. Do you know what? I'm gonna make a confession here. When I was told this was on the running order, I thought this is nonsense, this is, I'm above this. This is a waste of everybody's time. But this is, this is really interesting.

Chris and I have both on TV stuff with Mike Lohen. Michael Owen has a really interesting brain. I think Michael Owen is not, he doesn't think like most people, and that can be a good thing, it can be a bad thing. Kelly, I suspect you will know Michael Owen as well. He has a very mathematical brain, I think. He's a very logical man. Yeah.

Sometimes quite bluntly logical. That's maybe the diplomatic way of putting it. So it doesn't surprise me that he kind of lays out in a kind of bang, bang, point A, point B, point C, to say, well, so there's your argument, that's it. Nuts and bolts, no problem. I think he does have a right, if not to blow his own trumpet, then certainly to tell people that he's got one. I think that is a valid approach.

I've never heard the metaphor used in quite that way. He's got a right, he's got a right, if not to blow his own trumpet, then to tell everyone he's got one. Definitely. It's a line from blackout. sure it's some blackheader that yeah you shouldn't blow your own trumpet but you're okay to tell people you've got one and it is a life to is a rule to live your life by but the other thing that's really interesting is the timing of it so and just quite rightly says you're 2004 Rooney blows everybody away and it's that it's the injury to Rooney that basically cost

England the shot at winning that tournament Michael Owen was 18 when he scored that goal against Argentina he was an 18 year old who lit up the World Cup and all right England go out on penalties not really his fault but that goal was I think the goal of the tournament it was this huge starburst of this 18-year-old kid who then goes on to win the Ballondeur a couple of years later. And I do wonder whether there is what Andrews is talking about, that difference in kind of social media respect that Rooney will get compared to Owen, is because Owen came through six years beforehand. And so people, if you're, yeah, if you're under than 34, 35, you probably don't remember Michael Owen as he was when he first came through. How many of

Owen's really early goals do you see in good quality footage? Does these, the first goal at Oh, come on. Chris is, you will suffer from this as well. People don't remember the two or three dollars that you started in your career either. Does they all happen before HD television? Yeah, well, I, you know, I scored as many goals as, as Michael Owen in that season. He got 18. And looked at the disrespect that you get.

Yeah. I just, honestly, I get what Andros is saying. But I don't, when you're, when you're such a great player, as Michael Owen was, I don't think he needs to, I don't think he needs to big himself up and tell everybody how good it. I don't think that's what he's doing. I don't think it's like self-aggrandizing.

No, I don't think it's like self-aggrandizing. I think it is, from his point of view, it's just delivering the facts. Somebody's asked him the question. And so he's just put the facts and said, I was much better at 17. My goal scoring record was much better. Here's the numbers that I have to my fingertips to prove it.

We went on to have a better career. I just don't think. I just think it's purely factual. I think it's what Rory said, whereas it's just a logic. Not everything's about facts, Kelly. No, but I think it is to Michael Owen. We're in a post-fact world.

We are, unfortunately. And I think Michael Owen, although it sounds like from the comment, he does fully recognise that Rooney was a more rounded footballer to play more different roles, had a greater creative streak. Michael Owen doesn't see football like that. I remember, do you remember the Brentford chip

that Darwin Nunea scored, where he went through, Yeah. In the middle of the goal and the last minute, was it? Over the keeper. No, it wasn't the last minute. It was the season before.

Oh, not that one. Okay. He gets set through, I think, by Jotta, and runs up to the keeper in a straight line and just sort of plinks it over him. And it was a wonderful goal and Michael Owen was furious about it.

Because Michael Owen's logic was that as a striker, you need to have X number. I think it was 10 finishes that you do every single time. Because when he was in that position, he was calculating. was thinking the odds of, he works in odds.

The odds of me storing if I do this, this and this are A, B and C. He doesn't have any sort of great truck with the kind of magical element of the game. So I think to him, if you compare him at 17 and Rooney at 17, he won't care about the fact that Rooney had that sense of wonder about him. It would just be like, well, I stored more goals and they're the important thing. That's how Michael Owen's brain works. I take that. This is really interesting.

I could do a full hour on this. Well, I'll tell you what, we can give you a little spin-off podcast for it. And you can go away and research that. and host it, Rory. But of course, it's not Wayne or Michael Owen, who've got the England goal scoring record. That belongs to Harry Kane, of course. And Harry Kane sat down with senior reporter Ian Dennis

earlier on in Belgrade. He started by asking about his move to Bayern Munich, but also another comment that was made by Michael Owen. Harry, you just got asked an interesting question in the press conference about criticism from the media. But what about from a former player? Because I'd just gauge to your opinion from what Michael Owen said. he said you were nuts to go to buy him

yeah no I touched on this earlier everyone's entitled to their opinion you know I have nothing but respect for for Michael I don't know him that well I've met him a couple of times and he's been great you know he had a fantastic career both club

and for England as well I think he will know more than anyone you know everyone's career is different everyone has decisions to make at different times and you do what's best for you what you think is the most important thing for me at that period in my time it was to improve, get better,

play for a club who is going to be challenging in Champions League and Premier League and that's openly what I've done. I've loved every second of my time at Bynne. I feel like it's progressed me on as a player. And yeah, I'm really happy there. So I'm sure he didn't mean it. Maybe in the way it's gone out there

in the media but of course he's entitled to his opinion but I know I make decisions for myself and it was definitely the right one as for this game and the threat of racism I think the Serbian FAA have warned their supporters to be on best behaviour obviously protocols are in place as captain have you spoken to the players we had a meeting about it yesterday just more about what those protocols are and if something does happen what

you know the steps that are in place ultimately we had those discussions whenever there's a chance of it happening but we don't like to focus on it too much ultimately we're talking about something that may and may not so if it does happen we know what to do

the players are prepared for that we hope obviously it don't happen we want to have a tough football match a good football match and yeah we hope the fans enjoy that as well this will be the toughest test of the group so far won't it you've played here 2019 for tottenham one four nil just talk us through what it's like to walk down the tunnel it's meant to be one of the most intimidating in europe yeah i'd probably say the tunnel is the

most intimidating uh it's a long old walk uh from the changing rooms to the to the pitch and a lot of noise a lot of banging um but yeah it's a great atmosphere um you know when we played we played actually really well uh here with totlin uh i think tomorrow will be an even level up because Serbia, England is a massive game. They'll be a totally full house and they'll try and make it as intimidating as they can for us. But as we know, we've played in places like this before where it's hostile and ultimately it's about what we do on the pitch.

We control the ball we control what goes on on the pitch. And we need to be ready because it's going to be a tough battle. They're a good side. They showed that when we played them in the Euros. And, you know, it's a big part of the group stage so far. whoever wins this game, you know, takes a big step in the right direction. And obviously, we hopeless us. Harry Kane was talking to Ian Dennis there,

amongst other things about the fact that 15% of the stadium tomorrow night will be closed to supporters as a punishment for racist chanting at a previous home match. The general secretary of the Serbian FA has warned fans in tomorrow's match program that behaviour of all of us in the stands were still under special monitoring from UEFA, every inappropriate reaction, insult or incident could cost us dearly on our path to the USA, Mexico and Canada, including the possibility of having to play a decisive match with Albania behind closed doors. Andros, you played in an under-21s match in Serbia in 2013

when the England players were subject to a barrage of racist abuse from the stands. What are your thoughts on the effect that closing off 15% of the stadium to the home fans could potentially have on behaviour given that the general secretary has come out and issued this warning? I don't think it will have any effect because there's still 50% of the stadium of fans in there

and they'll probably be even angry that half the stadium has been closed off but listening to Harry Speak there it's good that they've had that meeting they know the protocols they've probably gone through various options on what they should do and all agreed to be a team

because back in 2013 there wasn't any of that we were sort of in shock. We weren't expecting it. There were no protocols in place and sort of ended up a big 22-man melee with the coaching staff. Fans were climbing over the fence and it really was an ugly scene. So I think the games moved on a lot in the last 10, 15 years and there are protocols in place now.

So if it does happen, the players have agreed to do X, Y, Z and then let the authorities deal with it after. So, yeah, it's good to hear Harry speak there and they have spoken. and clarified what they're going to do if it does happen. Yeah, those protocols will be in place when England take on Serbia tomorrow night. Live commentary of that, of course, on Five Live Sport. Harry Kane himself played the full 90 against Andorra.

Chris, he's a player who does want to play. You get the impression every minute of every game. He wants to get those goals under his belt, which he didn't do against Andorra. But what happens if there's no Harry Kay? What's the alternative to have? Harry Kane are they not over-reliant on him in the sense that you know you want your your first-choice striker to be scoring a lot of goals that doesn't seem like over-reliance

but what happens if he's not an option um I think that's a great question and I think England have a bit of a problem there because I think since Thomas Tuchel has uh has come in and taking charge he started Harry Kane in every game was it not an ideal opportunity in the game at the weekend to give Ollie Watkins you know part of the game or whatever, I think it was. You know, it looks like England are going into the World Cup. And at this moment in time, Thomas Tuchel only really trusts Harry Kane as a central striker. So, you know, that is a bit of a problem position.

I know that there's been a lot of talk around how many players Thomas Tuchel has used and being a bit of a tinker man. But that centre-forward area is a worry for England, if anything happens to Kane. But Chris, was it a game for Olly Watkins and Dora set up in a 5-4-1? There was no real space in behind. I felt like England needed sort of cane to sacrifice himself to come short to hold up the ball, bring a couple of defenders with him to allow Rashford as a Declan Rice to run in the space in beyond. So that's not to say Olly Watkins, but that's not to say Olly Watkins can't play

against teams who play in a low block as well. I think Olly Watkins can. I just, so if Harry Kane is fit for every minute of the World Cup, he's going to plan to Thomas Tuchel. That's the way it looks. But if he's not or anything happens, and Thomas Tuchel isn't giving game time to other strikers out there, Watkins, whether it's Watkins or Solanky or whoever,

then, you know, it's a risk, isn't it? I was also looking at what Thomas Tuchel said about Marcus Rashford, who did start against Dandora, and he said he struggles a bit with numbers and with the wow performance in an England shirt but as long as he trains like he did and behaves and is active and alive in the group then we'll always trust him and push him

and support him. It's not a ringing endorsement, is it? Yeah, I think he was quite harsh with a lot of his forward players which can be good. When you've got world-class players, it can be good to keep them on their toes. But I think it's always difficult when you're a wide player

and again, I'll go back to the 5-4-1 that Andora play. He was getting the ball, he was having to take on two or three players. And I think he did it relatively well in terms of getting into good areas and maybe one touch too many ran into it to the wall of Andorra. But I think he was positive. He was looking to drive England forward. He was looking to take men on.

He was looking to get crossing the box. So I definitely think it was a positive performance from Rashford. And it's good to hear that his training levels are high. His mood within the camp is good because as we know from Man United, that hasn't always been the case. So it seems that he's matured. and he's learning, he's developing. Don't, Roe, you fire away. It's nothing still insightful.

I was going to say, it's interesting that Tootle does seem to have, there's like a spikiness to Thomas Tootel, England manager, isn't it? Like, we knew this from Chelsea to an extent, but we always kind of wondered if it was to do with, like, dysfunction behind the scenes or the fact that he, you know, he was trying to win a political battle with a sporting director or whatever. But there is a little bit of kind of, he's come in and adopted this policy of like radical honesty of, yeah, yeah, Marcus Rashford.

Do you not like honesty? No, I do. It's really good, but I just, I don't know whether, I think it probably, well, there's one or two ways at ends, isn't it? Either England win the World Cup, and there's lots of pieces about how Thomas Tootel's radical honesty was the key to unlocking the, the generation's talent, or they don't win the World Cup and he leaves and everyone's very upset with him. So it just, it feels like a very, I don't know, it just, it's quite a high risk approach.

But I think Rory, in club football, you sort of have to pamper players these days. You've got 25-man squad. You need to keep everyone happy. But in an international stage where you've got the depth that England have now, you can be a bit ruthless. If Rashford takes it well and he improves and he works on his game, then great. If he doesn't, then you've got two or three world-class left-wingers waiting in the wings. Anthony Gordon, Greelish, Eze, whoever wants to play out this.

I think it's a good approach. Oh, we will carry on talking about. Oh, sorry. Don't worry. Don't worry. You carry on, Chris. Don't worry. Izzy's not here anymore, Kelly.

We're just looking at your talk. Just going back to the honesty approach from Thomas Tuchel, that's fine as long as he's honest with everyone. The players will buy in, you know, with that, as long as his characteristics are the same all the way throughout the group. But the wide areas for England are fascinating. I think Andros has touched on it because the strength in depth that England have. I think, you know, you look at Madiwiki, you know,

You've got Saka, you've got Gordon. I mean, Ezer can play out wide. We haven't even talked about Jack Grealish, who if he starts performing or carries on performing as he has done for Everton, you know, he must be in with the shout. So there are areas of great strength for England. I don't think England are going to be short in those areas, but there are other areas of concern.

Our correspondent John Murray is in Belgrade. He's been speaking to England boss, Thomas Tuchel. Thomas, I think this match actually promises to be quite revealed. doesn't it about your England team it's a different kind of challenge reads like a proper match no Serbia versus England good seems to be promises to be emotional promise to be full of quality so hopefully we can we can prove the point both teams can prove the point you always need two to tango so I think it will bring out the very best in us tomorrow and it needs also like the best in us to to steal all three points we're here to

win. So we expect an intense match. We want to play an intense match. We will not let them have the ball too much and impose their quality on us. We want to be on the ball, be dominant and yeah, hopefully we can do this and improve it. I like hearing you say that you feel that it is coming and that you are getting there. Do you think that this match, this challenge, has come at a good time for you? Yeah, it has come at a very good time because camp was excellent throughout every player deserves to play and the group was very very good on the pitch and off the pitch with each other

so it's very easy to trust them also for tomorrow I think like I said it's a good moment now for this challenge we always want to prove ourselves but I think against Serbia tomorrow in her way match or first the main match together it's a good occasion to step up and I think we're ready for that

we know what it's going to be like here many of your players have been here and experienced it whether it's club level or in whatever scenario do you know are you ready for that you know that this could be very hostile yeah but listen if you play Premier League I know some places in Premier League where it's also pretty hostile if you come as an away team I know places in Champions League

Europe League where yeah it's pretty hostile and emotional so I think our players are well prepared for that and we will we will hopefully grow in an atmosphere like this and show our character and show our quality because I still think

that we are used to these kind of atmospheres and you'd have no hesitation in throwing Elliot Anderson in there into the middle of all this no everyone is fit everyone trained very well

everyone deserves to get some minutes and this is the same for Elliot he did excellent he had now two days of recovery he's ready for tomorrow he plays premier league there is no doubt he can play in this atmosphere tomorrow and just finally on the atmosphere on what we might have here the match program tonight the head of the federation has asked supporters to behave we know that the the capacity is reduced because of previous discriminatory and racist events. Are you ready for all eventualities? Yes, we are. We know about the protocol. We hope that we don't need it, that everyone respects the game and respects the opponents and respects the players,

first of all. And I truly believe that this is possible. If it's not possible because of some individuals, we know about the protocol and we will follow the protocol. prepared to follow the protocol against Serbia. We'll bring you live commentary of that on five live sport. Andrus, because you're in Thailand and because of the time difference, you won't have watched that game live. So you'll have been able to see all the reports of the performance against Andorra before you watched the game.

Did what you see match up with what you were expecting? No, quite the opposite. When I woke up and saw all the headlines about how drab England were, it was boring. I thought it was just going to be a typical England performance where. They don't commit enough men forward to break down Andorra. But I think it was the opposite. For 90% of that match, England built up with Gahey and Dan Byrne at the back. They had Elliot just ahead of them.

And then they had seven players all on the front line trying to dislodge that Andorra block. Ellie Anderson did very well with his forward passing. England worked the right side well with Reese James and Madawakey inside. They linked up very well. Skelly and Rashford on the other side. did well as well. So I think it was a lot better than it has been in the past

against these nations. And I think England, it was a good performance. England created enough to win that game fought four, five or six nil. But for one reason or another, couldn't put the ball in the back of the net. But I think it was a very positive performance despite what was being reported

on various news outlets. Our correspondent, John Murray, joins us now on Monday Nightclub. John, you're inside the, the stadium. I believe they're turning off the lights. If they start putting on their pyjamas and making themselves a cup of sleepy tea, it's definitely time to get out of there. Well, the England squad were due to come here to the stadium and have the walk around that I'm sure Andros used to enjoy very much indeed. But

because there was a delay in flying here, they actually put that off. So the rest of the squad went straight to the hotel for dinner. So when Thomas Tuchel and Harry came to speak to us. I think we were conscious of the fact that they were looking to get their dinner as well. So they've switched the big floodlights out here. And this stadium has some of the best floodlights in European football. They are fantastic. You know, those big toothbrush-style floodlight pylons that tower over the stadium. It's an amazing place. This I've been several times, as I know you've discussed already, the atmosphere in here can be something very, very special. Could you argue that this

is Tuchel's biggest test yet as England manager, certainly in terms of competitive games? Yeah, I think so. You know, the Senegal match was what it was. That was the best team that England have played under Thomas Tuchel and they lost to them at the city ground and Senegal were very good that night and as we know that

was right at the end of the season. It was the last match, the last England match of the season. So I think probably you could say there were some extenuating circumstances. This is different. The season's underway now. We're in the absolute thick of this qualifying campaign and it is first against second in the group and yes Serbia have dropped points they they drew with Albania but they they like England are unbeaten in

the group and haven't conceded a goal yet and if you care to cast your eye down the squad list of Serbia there are some very good and very familiar footballers in that in that squad list that we will be seeing playing against England for example for example Alexander Mitrovich of course who was at the the wrong end of his career. But at the other end of the field, Nicola Milankovych of Nottingham Forest, the very good goalkeeper, Petrovich, Georgia Petrovich,

who's just moved to Bournemouth, having been at Chelsea, Lukic of Fulham in the midfield, and Vlahovich of Juventus up front who scored in the last three matches. And that's just, you know, a handful of them. Do you think that England fans will want to see a more expansive performance?

Will they be allowed to give a more expansive performance against Serbia? know how much you caught of what andros was saying john but he was speaking in defense of england's andora performance well as i kind of suggested to thomas tuckel i think we're expecting more of a contest you know more of an ebb and flow i think that's that is likely to happen here because of serbia's position in the group you have to win the group to qualify automatically second place you end up in the playoffs and they are five points behind england in the group so the onus is on Serbia if they want to win this group and their coach dragan stoikovitch

a great former player from this part of the world played his international football for Yugoslavia he was talking about their intention is to win England and narrow that gap between them and the top team in the section so I think it will be a challenge I think England are favourites I think you know that's quite obvious I think when you put the two squads up against one another but I think it's a very interesting one

because of where we are with England and the development of Thomas Tuchel's team and the hope is that there is still so much more to see. Yeah, Chris, there is a hope. So what I was going to ask you is where you think they are in terms of the development. I think it's been really difficult for Thomas Tuchel because of the nature of the games and the teams who England have played and the setups which these teams have gone into the game

and into the games other than the Senegal game, which wasn't a World Cup qualifier. But teams have been happy to sit and be negative. and the onus has been on Thomas Tuchel's team to break them down. I get the sense, and just listening to John's interview there with Thomas Tuchel, that he's really excited about this game. He called it a proper match. Is that the feeling you got from him, John, in terms of this is one he can really get stuck into

and his teeth stuck into it because the Serbians will have a go. And that's when England should flourish. Absolutely. And I think, you know, the message was on Saturday night from Thomas Tuck. and from the players as well actually. You know, he did use this phrase. He does feel that they are getting there. And he said it again to us tonight.

In the interview there, I think when he spoke in his wider press conference as well, talking about them getting better, and he said, I'm saying that because I see what I see. You know, and I think that's what's intriguing about this. Is he saying that or does he genuinely believe it? And I think you have to trust that it is the latter. It seems a bit unfair, Chris, for you to just dismiss all of these other countries' rights to play football.

These are proud sovereign nations, but I don't think you should be insulting them. John, do you have any sense of what Tuchel want, what his end game is? Have you seen anything that makes you think, when they run into a decent team in the last 16 or the last 120 or whatever it is of the World Cup next summer, this is what he's going to go and do? Are you any closer now as the foremost England watcher amongst us? of knowing what that is? Or does it all remain a bit of the mystery? I think it's very simple, Rory. I think he wants his team to play quick attacking football.

He wants them to score lots of goals and he wants them to dominate, which probably any manager would. But I also feel that, and this will continue over the course of the autumn, because of the limited time scale that he has had and he has, he is still going to have to look at other players. And I'm expecting that over the course of the season and it'll be only when we,

we get to the World Cup finals, should England qualify and get this job done, that we will then have a firm idea of what it is that he intends to do at the finals. And even then, it probably won't be because of the nature of the World Cup, a 48-Team World Cup, it will probably only be in the knockout stages of that World Cup that we'll be able to answer that question properly. Do you think in a weird way that the depth of resources he's got is kind of a complicating factor? Because there are so many choices in so many positions. Yeah, partly, but also I think there are still lots and lots of questions about who plays in certain positions. And we, you know, we don't know the definitive answer to that. And one of those

conversations that we're not having this week, because neither Bellingham nor Palmer are involved in this squad, you know, how are they both going to be fitted into this squad, assuming that they are fit and in form. I think the fullback positions are certainly areas that we're not absolutely certain. But I think having started with Reese James and Miles Lewis Skelly, they are probably the two in possession at the moment. Who is going to play in the midfield position? Elliot Anderson obviously did very well on his first cap at the weekend.

And Adam Wharton was included in this squad. And I think a massive question is, if Cain, if Harry Cain, is not there, then who is it going to be? I think you used the key word that dominate, and I go back to Tuchel's first season with Chelsea, and he beat Man City a couple of times on the way to beating them in the Champions League final. And the one team Chelsea did is dominate that midfield area and take the game away from Man City in the midfield. And that's one thing England haven't done over my lifetime watching England plays dominate against the top sides. I look at Spain in the final a few years

ago, and we had moments, we had spells, especially after we scored, but we haven't really truly dominated a top team. And it'll be interesting to see if two call can instill that in his side, that confidence to go to a France, a Spain, or whoever it might be, and dominate them from start to finish. So, yeah, I'm interested to see how that plays out over the next year. On the website, Phil McNulty's written a piece where he sort of puts it into context and said, England, have only lost four World Cup qualifies in the past 30 years. They're unbeaten in these matches since 2009. Talks about how that compares to Spain and Germany

and how well England have done. But the headline for the whole article is, when was the last enjoyable England World Cup qualifier? Which I think tells us everything that we need to know. John, before you go, do you want to get involved in the Wayne Rooney, Michael Owen at 17 debate? Go on. So the question is? Who was better at the age of 17?

Wayne Rooney or Michael Owen? I think I would probably go Michael Owen would be. Is that an unpopular? answer. No, no, no, it's not that. We think it might be people who are old enough to properly remember Michael Owen in the 1998 World Cup. Like all of

us. And just about Andros who was about seven at the time. All involved it. I'll tell you what, I'm also old enough to remember, Kelly, sitting in this stadium, this is where the Penenka happened. This stadium is where Anton and Penenka

did his Penenka. And, you know, we still, and that was back in 1976 and we're still talking you know we still

we'll probably say it virtually every week don't we? When nobody even knew what a gift was were they the same

floodlights back then John do you know I think do you can I ask a follow up to that as well

you can ask a follow up Chris yes I'm available for a follow what are your favourite floodlights in the Premier League

favourite floodlights in the Premier League I quite like the Hipswich Town floodlights which was they were obviously

in the Premier League last season. I think they are very good floodlights, quite like the Ellen Road floodlights. John, if you broaden your sporting taste to cricket, the floodlights are headingly are in the shape of white roses, which is the correct thing. John Murray, thank you very much. I've got the results of the Michael Owen, Wayne Rooney poll, if anybody wants them. Who was better at the age of 17, Wayne Rooney or Michael Owen, with 58% of the vote? It is, Wayne Rooney. Yeah, it's Jews Yonder. Do that.

same poll in the radio times yeah i tell you what you're lucky it wasn't 5248 he scored goals lifted trophies and broken records along the way there it is it's a day to remember the way and now he's got a podcast welcome to the wayne runy show wayne runy kaird and me kelly somers break down the biggest stories in the premier league and beyond plus we'll hear the funniest wildest and most stories from Wayne's career. Me and Colleen were in Las Vegas for our honeymoon. The McDonald's was closed, so you could only go through the drive-thru. Did you walk through it?

I was pushing her in a shop and trolley. The Wayne Rooney Show. Listen on BBC Sounds.