Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Why Leicester have gone down & what Leeds & Burnley can learn from it

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Leicester City relegated, while Leeds United & Burnley are promoted. Mark Chapman, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Joe Hart react to Leicester going down & Leeds & Burnley going up.Leicester City Correspondent for BBC Radio Leicester Owynn Palmer-Atkin joins the pod to dissect what has gone wrong at the club, from Steve Cooper’s appointment to Ruud van Nistelrooy’s takeover to disgruntlement with the ownership.Leeds and Burnley secure automatic promotion to the Premier League after wins over Stoke City and Sheffield United. Hear from Leeds winger Dan James and Burnley captain Josh Cullen.Timecodes: 00:30 What’s gone wrong at Leicester? 11:10 Steve Cooper’s management of young Leicester players 17:15 Entitlement culture in football 26:35 Players & manager demands 35:25 Burnley captain Josh Cullen post-promotion 40:00 Leeds winger Dan James post-promotion 41:40 How Leeds & Burnley stay up next season

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This week we'll delve into the truth about Red Bull's so-called crisis talks. Is it a load of bull? And we look ahead to Saudi Arabia. He's really good. He's going to win it. Don't worry about that. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the Inside Track, wherever you get radio podcasts. This is Five Live Sports. The Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Monday nightclub.

Rory Smith, Chris Sutton and Joe Hart with us. Coming up we'll get reaction to Leeds and Burnley's promotion from the championship, but we'll start with a club going in the opposite direction. Ruud van Nistelrooy's Leicester relegated to the championship. Their season in a nutshell, two managers, four wins, no home league goals for almost five months. The last time they scored at home, December the 8th. No side has gone nine straight home defeats without scoring until Leicester.

A plane flew over the stadium pre-match with the message, King power clueless sack the board. Jamie Vardy this afternoon tweeted this. At this point I don't even know what to say. No words I have can ever express my feelings of anger and sadness with the way this season has gone. There are no excuses. Collectively as players and as a club we failed. There is simply no hiding. I refuse to entertain any suggestion of doing so. Having been at this club for so long, we've experienced so many highs and successes and

this season has been nothing but miserable and for me personally a total embarrassment. It hurts and I know you are feeling it too. To the fans I'm sorry, sorry we haven't performed and sorry we end the 2025 season with such a show. And that word is in there. And I read that to you and you then shivered because of the embarrassment word. Yeah. Well no, you chose the word embarrassment. Well he's put the word embarrassment. But that was after, that was Jamie Vardy. He's allowed to be embarrassed. Right. And you're allowed to feel how you

need to feel, but it's just, yeah, it's tough. It's tough when people have bad seasons in my opinion for people who aren't inside it to really, really go in hard on what's gone on. And Jamie Vardy's felt like he needs to make that statement. Good for him, but I'm sure that Lester would have much preferred him scoring goals and obviously discussing it from a, from a different angle. But you know, it happens. He's obviously very close to the club and the clubs are very close to him. Um, it's, it's strange and it's, it's such a strange noise coming out of Lester at the

moment and it's quite a hard one to get your head round how they're feeling about it. And they're kind of, if they didn't have that huge triumph that they had in 2016 It feels like it would really imploded but because they've got that and that standalone absolutely unbelievable Bit of their modern-day history. It seems to be holding together by a thread at the moment The I mean the biggest anger amongst the fans I suppose Rory and and and Jamie Vardy has Sort of entertained this as well, is that this is how the club is run. This is not simply anger at players or even really anger at the managers. This is anger about how this club has been run.

What's, sorry Rory, just as a slight outsider I'm not going to say I know a great deal about Leicester, I actually don't. I know they've had a difficult season, what are they so upset about how they run? Shall I bring a guest in who will know this? Oh, seamless. There you go. Owen Parma, sorry Rory, but Joe doesn't want to hear from you. I asked you Rory there, Chappie's just been mad. At the moment, just so he renews his contracts, I'm getting him, I'm just doing whatever he wants. Owen Palmer-Atkin, Leicester correspondent for BBC Radio Leicester, joins us. Do you want to answer Joe's question then first of all, Owen? Evening.

Yeah, good evening. I think the reason why Leicester City fans at this moment in time are feeling so angry and frustrated with the football club is very much from the top bottom. It all is around strategy and Leicester's alignment in that compared to what they have done in previous seasons. Their strategy was always very, very clear in those years that Joe talked about where they were very, very successful winning the Premier League, being almost a mainstay in European competition as well through the Champions League all the way to the Conference League and then winning the FA Cup as well in those kind of Brendan Rodgers years at Leicester and since then and since they almost reinvested

and tried to go after the top four again after they won the FA Cup. They've moved away from a model and now the recruitment is patchy. It doesn't really seem to make a great deal of sense compared to what came before. The managerial appointments don't really add up with a clear strategy and alignment

as to how do this club want to play? And how does this club want a manager to behave and kind of set this team up and alongside all of that you have a quite damning and deafening silence from the board and from the chairman, Kuntop and the director of football, John Rudkin, who haven't spoken for a great deal of time. And when you add all of those things together with a relegation in the way that they've done this season, it leaves a very frustrated and at the minute, I think, apathetic fan base.

And when you say a great deal of time, we're talking years, aren't we? Yeah, I think there's been frustration around. I mean, there was always frustration, for example, and these are these are very, very good comparisons to make from from a Leicester perspective, because, you know, when they finish fifth twice, when they probably should have finished fourth twice and qualify for the Champions League, there was huge frustration at the manager and the players on those occasions. But then as the you kind of see that decline in form and the decline from eighth and then to relegation, then to the championship. And then of course, this season as well, you begin to look a little bit deeper at exactly how

the football club is being run. And when you add in the huge losses they've reported over the last few years as well financially, clearly they're not in a great position. They fought the Premier League on PSR charges and they reported just a couple of weeks ago another 19 million pound loss as well and that they are, you know, escaping PSR by the skin of their teeth at the moment. And again, you just have to look at this season as well, the recruitment at the beginning of the season, two managers, four wins. Chav, as you said it all really, it's the story of the season and yeah, this dates back, I mean you could arguably say it dates back

to just after they won the FA Cup, you could go even further and say the death of Konvichy back in the October of 2018 is probably one of the big moments that Leicester fans look at as, is that the moment that the fortunes of this club turned? Oh, and do you get the sense that it's a plan that they've got that's been executed badly, or is there no actual plan? The impression that I would get, I mean, if you look at the things that you can analyse pretty easily, i.e. recruitment of managerial staff and players, it doesn't look like they've got an awful lot of a plan.

And you kind of saw the logic of hiring Enzo Maresca. It was a bit of a risk, but it was a risk that paid off. They wanted to play in a certain way and they recruited and backed that manager correctly. But when Enzo Maresca leaves to go to Chelsea, you bring in Steve Cooper, who, yes, builds the pitch in a similar way, not exactly, but similar to create that box midfield,

but was not really the same sort of manager at all. So to go from Enzo Maresca to Steve Cooper to then Rude Van Nistelroy doesn't feel joined up. The recruitment side of things as well, paying £25 million for players like Oliver Skip in the summer, who's not really made much of an impact at all, alongside Jordan Ayub, Bobby DeCordova, Reid. You know, these players haven't made a huge impact and goes away completely from what the club did the previous year when they were in the championship,

when they were able to bring in definite starters in players like Harry Winx and Steffi Mabedidi, Avdol Fattahou as well. So it doesn't feel like there is a plan. It doesn't feel like there is a strategy that's joined up throughout the entire club. And I think that's the kind of basis and the fundamental basis of the frustration. Looking back Owen, would you and Leicester fans, do you think that was a mistake to sack Steve Cooper when you did?

I mean, they weren't in the relegation zone. That seemed very knee-jerk to me and sort of the stuff about the Nottingham Forest link and what have you. Well, Martin O'Neill was a Nottingham Forest legend, but Lester Fann were very, very fond of him eventually. That seemed too quick for me. And then the muddled up thinking to appoint Van Nistelrooy, that was an odd appointment based on a couple of wins for Manchester United against Leicester, wasn't it, basically? Yeah, to talk on Steve Cooper, I don't actually think for the majority of Leicester fans that

the Nottingham Forest connection was that big of a deal. They were pretty open and honest. The fans that I was talking to, they wanted to give Steve Cooper a chance. I think they enjoyed the touchline passion and the clear want to do well. The messages that we were getting of getting out of the club when Steve Cooper left his role was that it was a connection really with the players that was the initial problem and then the problem that there seemed to be a disconnect there.

But you are absolutely right, they weren't in the relegation zone when they sacked Steve Cooper after 12 games, which feels very, very early for a newly promoted side to move a manager on who they just brought in in the summer when you're not in the relegation zone. And at that stage as well, they were alongside Manchester City as the only team to have scored in every single game so far that season as well, which is a stark contrast to where they are now, having not scored at home since the 8th of December and only scoring their first away goal since mid-January last week against Brighton. And again, it's the, you said it right, the muddled up thinking to then go from a manager

like Steve Cooper to Ruud van Nistelrooy, who hasn't then been able to pick up the results as well. It's left Leicester in a really strange position. Ordinarily, when a new manager comes in in a season like this, they are at least able to up the desire, the fight, the passion, the performances to a certain extent. But when you look at his record, that is the record of a manager that is normally gone way before now. Having dug a little bit deeper, it was actually the seeded players, players like Jamie Vardy, Conor Cody, et cetera, that were players that were almost on board with Steve Cooper at that stage and buying into what he wanted to do because at that stage they were at the very least competitive in

most games, not all, they were outclassed because there is a clear lack of quality in this in this Leicester side which has been proven to where they are now relegated with five games to go but now relegated with five games to go. But it seemed to be more of the kind of younger players, the players that weren't maybe at the total level of experience as some of the older guys in the squad that were maybe not connecting so well with the manager because it was a complete different style of play. He was asking them to do things that a lot of these players who were brought in under Enzo Maresca weren't used to and they wanted to continue playing the Enzo way, if you like, but Steve Cooper was trying to take those walls of foundation down and try to build his own way as any manager would want to. So there is a perception that that is the case at Leicester

and it's not a perception that shines well necessarily. Do you think? It's a bit of a mark, that's staggering if that's the case. Younger players having a problem when a new manager comes in and tries to tweak something, I mean that sort of sums up everything which is wrong about, which has been wrong about Leicester this season. It seems that the one thing in common with the fan base, the owners and the players is they started the season but I think they all thought they were far better than what they actually were. But if we're hearing that young players are questioning a manager and a relatively experienced manager and his tactics, then heaven help Leicester and where they go from here.

It's also strange to think that that would happen to Steve Cooper, who's, and I don't have any great horse in the Steve Cooper race, but Steve Cooper's reputation was built on the under-17 World Cup. He is famously good at kind of bedding in young players, at bonding with young players, at building around young players. It seems unusual that that would be the case. I guess you could have understood it if it was Vardy and Cody, who, and players of that sort of level of experience, who weren't quite impressed or something.

It does seem strange that the younger players would be the ones that might take against him. Yeah, just on that kind of Maresca and, and Cooper coming in, Maresca would have had the team playing no matter what. He'd have had all the noise in the championship saying that this does not work. This does not work how you're wanting to play. And he'd have got them playing and playing and playing. And admittedly, you know, they didn't have an easy ride. I think they nearly blew it when coming up, if my memory serves me right. But

they got there in the end and the younger players would have been recruited to come and play and they would have been told in the Premier League that we're gonna come and play we're gonna come play our way very much like the Ange conversation at Tottenham. But also the Russell Martin Southampton conversation. Yeah of course these all these sorts of come and then when you look at Steve Cooper his kind of British knowledge of the game no matter how good he would have been with the under 17s he would have come in with a little bit of realisation seeing what had happened in the previous year and

said, look, what you're doing is fantastic boys, but we just need to add a little bit of steel to it. And the moment you say that in a modern day dressing room now, I can see you getting angry Chris again up there because that's just his normal face. I'm always angry Joe. No, no, no. I said getting more angry. So I'll add more in there Because I'm a young player now and i've experienced it would be absolutely They'd they'd feel like you'd ask them to do something terrible if you ask them to just say look can we just Batten down the hatches for 20 minutes in a game and just get through the first 15 20 minutes That in a modern day dressing room, especially players that have been bought in by maresca, would have felt like the conversations going on between the younger players. Now, old school mutiny would

have been, get this guy out, he's doing my head in, we all need to stick together and get him gone. The mentality's totally changed now and it's almost gone, flipped it. They all know so much about football, they're all really engrossed in what's going on around the world and what's going on in the best football teams and the 4-4-2s and the 4-3-4-3s. They're so knowledgeable, the young players, that they can't almost think in from a FIFA game point of view of how you can play your way around. And when Steve Cooper is probably coming and just said, look, I get it guys, we need to play football, but we just need to have a little bit, we're going to have to scrap a little bit every now and again. These would have been conversations probably around people's houses and it really

diplomatic and this is the system I think works best and you know if we get on the half turn here it's totally changed and it's funny it's funny that's how football is now and that's how the modern players think. It's interesting what Joe said about you know young players and and then being so knowledgeable. I would question that though Joe because in the end what football is about, football is about winning and finding a way to win and being adaptable. So you know, I said before, if that's the way the young Leicester players...

No, but that's the way you view, that's the way a whole load of us, I'm on your side Chris there, I think a whole load of us who are probably over, all of us over 35 maybe, all think the same thing. But Joe will be in dressing rooms where it's about getting the ball off the goalkeeper, it's about playing through, it's about... Yeah, I'm not saying what's right or wrong Chris. I'm telling you when you hear about young players having You know potentially not being impressed with the coach and his methods Whereas you they might sound like they're saying, you know, he's not good enough or we don't like what he's gonna do So we're not gonna do it

I'm telling you that in a dressing room now the conversations are different to a to a mutiny that would have been on on our hands Or your hands it's because they were like, like I say, a young player thinks about the system and how, and what works best and that you're gonna have through tough times, but you were, you know, you can only invite the press if you continue to play. And once you start kicking it, the game plans out, out the window.

Out the window, yeah. And that's why, and once you start doing that, you start doing nothing. And that's, I'm not, like I say, I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I'm just trying to give some light when you hear about the younger players not being impressed. Now Vardy, Conor Cody, they know what it means to win.

They know that sometimes you've just got to grit your teeth, fight, and if you can nick a one nil from an own goal, that's a great result. But a younger player now being brought in from the continent who's playing, you know, beautiful football and coming to the Premier League, their idea of football is different and that's why Steve Cooper being slightly different to Maresca would have impacted them. And Owen, does this all feed into this sort of entitlement culture, I think, that the fans

talk about? I mean, they refer to the new training ground, ground don't they, what area is it in? The somethings spa? It's in Seagrove. So the Seagrove Spa, that's what the fans refer to it as. You've got the whole sort of debate about where players are living which has wound up Rude van Nistelrooy. You've got players bringing, I mean this is slightly different to wanting to play football in only one way, but you've got players bringing their dogs to the training ground and asking the staff to look after it. You know, Van Nistrup...

As a dog owner, I think that that should be allowed, just to be clear. What, every day? Sometimes you don't want to leave your dog at home on its own, maybe it's a nervous dog. Maybe it's not separation anxiety. No, I don't want to leave my... at home, but sometimes you then have to find somebody to help you out with the dog. But the clubs have been cross-sitting players for a long, long time. It doesn't strike me as being that unusual that a player might think that is kind of part of the deal. Clubs

will sort out players' washing machines for them. Yeah, but Ruth, I mean I could do that. We're getting lost here lads. Yeah we are, but Van Nistroy then said, in difficult moments you get to know people and characters very well. I speak about standards and what is needed to perform at the highest level.

And that's a culture which needs to be created in this club. They all feed into an image though, don't they? Some are in maybe more serious than others. The dog situation might not be as serious as where people live. Or some people might think that where people live doesn't matter, but they all feed in to a sense of entitlement.

Yeah, and those things you all talk about there and the different elements of what players maybe are able to get away with. I mean, I've been with every single press conference is at that Sea Grove training ground and it is quite something. And when you walk around, you do have the there is an element of spa like about it. You know, there's a herb garden, there's all these different things that you walk through and you're just like, this is this feels incredible, particularly when the club have come from Beaver Drive. But I think the to just go back to, you know, the fundamental problem between Enzo Maresca and Steve Cooper is that they were so ingrained in the way that Enzo Maresca wanted to play. And he did such a brilliant job of being able to get

them onside and on board with what he wanted to do that when a new manager came in that they were they were they they found it maybe perhaps difficult to to adjust and you know Joe and Chris will know better than than anyone about you know as a player do you just have to do what the manager is saying and have constructive conversations around that. But certainly around these Leicester players and one of the accusations that's been thrown at them this season is about fight and desire. And Ruud van Nistelrooy has spoke, as you just mentioned there Chapters as well, about the standards and he's mentioned standards an awful lot in his press conferences since

he arrived at the club and actually being a little surprised at some of the things that we're able to go on in. And I suppose if things have been able to be a little bit more lax than other clubs or what maybe players are used to, when the new strict head teacher comes in, things might get a little bit topsy-turvy and players might react in different ways. But it all feeds in, you're right, it all feeds into this perception and the feeling around the football club

that whatever is happening, whatever strategy there is, whatever the alignment should be, it is not there and it's not good enough. Oh, and there's a lot of bad eggs in there and a lot of fantasies. I mean, let's get it right, OK? This is a club who came up from the championship and players thinking they're better than what they are. There was the Mareska sign when they went on the Christmas party to Copenhagen when

they went away. What a snidey bunch. I mean, that tells you everything you need to know about, you know, Leicester and why they went away. What a what a snidey bunch. I mean that that tells you everything you need to know about you know Leicester and why they went down this season. I'm not saying I'm not saying every player in the dressing room but you know the stuff you're saying about young players getting above the station thinking they're better than what they are not being prepared to adapt. That's everything which is wrong about the club. I'm not quite as angry about that as Chris appears to be, but I do think, oh and you mentioned it, I think that might be the key thing that under did Cooper, is that it seemed

as though the players were basically still loyal to Maresca and they kind of didn't like their stepdad. That seems like the basic problem. Joe might be right that a lot of them were brought in with specific ideas, they were sold a specific vision of football. But if that incident in Copenhagen did look an awful lot like the squad as a whole was still kind of pining for the person who took them up, and that they weren't really over him, to be honest. Does Ruud van Nisselrode get sacked? From the outside it would look, I mean, he's kind of mad that he's still there, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, when you have a manager who's had the run of form that he's had and the run of games without a goal, you would ordinarily see them sacked from their post much earlier than

Rudvan Nistelrooy is already still in his. I spoke to Rudvan Nistelrooy after the game yesterday and I asked him whether conversations around the future had begun and he said that they hadn't. At this stage he was waiting for the club to have those conversations with him. I think you know for him and for him personally probably the best thing to do would be to stay with the job and get Leicester back into the Premier League in terms of his reputation, whether the club will afford him that opportunity, whether he deserves that opportunity probably is a different conversation. Owen, thank you very much for coming on. Appreciate that. Owen Palmer-Ackham with us. Lester correspondent for BBC Radio. Lester, what were you going to come in on?

What was I going to come in? I don't know. I heard he was going to switch off. Oh, right. Okay. Well, you got shouted out. You were going to come in and then Chris's anger took over at one point. That was all. Oh no, no, sorry Chris. I was going to say about Leicester. I remember when they were doing well, really well, and I remember speaking to the players. And trust me, bringing a dog in, doing what you want, someone else going in the kitchen, cooking dinner, bringing pizzas to the training ground. I'm not saying these things happen, but when they were doing well, Leicester was that kind of club where they were just having

a great time. They all absolutely adored each other. Nothing was off the table. But you've got to read the room, haven't you? 100% read the room. But I'm just saying from a club point of view and Top, who is now in charge of the club, that's what he knew, that's how he knew success. I don't know what their history was previously in football, but you know, coming to that Leicester team and building that family that they had, and doing the special things that they did together. If he's in charge of that football club like he is now, that's how he knows success is

bred with players being happy. He's not necessarily experienced the times that the players who were just there for the good stuff and aren't willing to work. So that's him learning on the job and that's the club learning on the job. But in terms of them being successful, they had their most success when they were behaving like that. But obviously they were doing the main thing. They were scoring goals, they were putting in performances and they were winning on the pitch. To be honest, I think there was a bit of a tendency to kind of reverse engineer explanations for stuff.

Like I've been inside the players sanctuary at Manchester City, the pool behind the changing room. That is, I mean that literally is a spa. The players have got their own spa at Manchester City and there's a little basketball hoop above the pool so they can play water basketball or whatever. But what's wrong with that? Joe nothing's wrong with it because you need those facilities to attract the players. You can't play water basketball because you can't bounce the ball.

No, but seriously... I don't know, what would you call it? But seriously... There's nothing wrong with it. It's part of modern football. No, I know, but Leicester have built this amazing training. What are they supposed to do? I know. Like, how can that be a negative?

Because people when they're looking at disappointing seasons will naturally, journalists, fans, whoever, probably players themselves, will sort of clasp at any explanation they can. I love that they'll clasp at that, but then I'd flip it and go, all right, what would you build if you were building a stadium? How would you build a training ground? Just concrete walls, bars, people inside. You can't have a good infrastructure, Rory. No, Chris, not you, Rory. I know it's not you. But I've heard it millions of times and I heard it about Spurs. Like, what do you want

them to do? They're a really well-run business and they put together and funded an incredible training ground for what they want, what's best for their football club. I don't understand. People might get a little bit comfy. Oh, who wouldn't? How could you not? But you also, the pitches are immaculate. They're being asked to train.

They're being asked to work hard. And if they come off training and they get to go in a warm bath and a nice bath within two meters of each other, how is that making them have a bad season? Rather than making them go home or go to the local lake, what do you want them to do? And if you're a top class elite athlete and you are performing for yourself and for your family and for the fans or whatever, but you also want to feel some sort of loyalty to the club, so the club wants to treat you well while you're there to look after you, there is nothing wrong with having a nice training ground.

I think to an extent it's, and do you know what, and this is a more serious point on the dog, if you're a player who's got a dog care problem chapter, you would probably be quite grateful that the club would say, look, do you know what, bring the dog in, we'll look after it, it's not a problem. Just as you would be if it was your kids and dogs and kids are equally important. We all know that. So the, I So I think that is actually in a lot of ways. That's subjective. That's subjective.

You've got a lot of Dodgers and a lot of kids, Chris. If Leicester had had a decent season, I guarantee you there will be pieces in various newspapers saying, isn't it brilliant that Leicester look out for their players? Well, that's where they would have got the idea from. They've not just come up with this new idea. That's something that they would have bought in or seen and thought, you know, that works. And the reality is that the players, the reason Lester have been relegated, a lot of it is

to do with the lack of kind of joined up thinking at the club that we talked about with Owen. Entitlement Rory. The players aren't good enough Chris, that's what it is, the players just, there isn't the depth of squad there, that's the problem. That is, and it's always been the same in football and all sports, when you're winning, everybody says, well, it's the most important thing, and everyone says, oh, the team spirit,

we love each other, everyone's great, and then when you get relegated, what happens? You blame everybody else. Yeah, but again, it is that, it just goes back to the read the room, doesn't it? Look, if you are struggling, but you do have this amazing training centre and you can bring your dog in and this that and the

other then actually if the manager asks you and I know I'm mixing up the players here but if the manager says do you know what I want everybody to stay here the night before a home game not not be commuting or once a week ahead of training I want them to stay overnight it's a bit of give-and-take isn't it if the manager makes the rules the manager manager makes the rules. You know and they can flip and change and you know you can have one agreement with one manager and one agreement with one board and when it changes, in my opinion, when it changes it changes and you do what's being asked of you.

Who do these players think they are if a manager asks you to stay over a night a week or you the keep saying Joe it's it's you know it's the modern player you know they're entitled to think like that I mean it's just it's just plainly wrong you you have to have an element of discipline because have an element of respect I'm not like I say I'm not saying what's right or wrong but I'm saying now that someone who didn't do it they'd have some sort of reason or some sort of reasoning that they'd have discussed with their partner with their agent and go I'm not I'm not comfortable with this. And this is, you know, this is the world that we live in now. And if you're not comfortable with something, you're encouraged to speak up, right? And if you're not, it's, it's not down to just saying flippantly, nah, do one.

I'm not, I'm not coming. There'll be a reason behind it, but it just obviously, it translates terribly once it gets out, especially when without full context. No, it is a really fair point in all of this. We're going way off. I mean, the running order's being torn up and we're off. But there is a real grown-up discussion to be had here, that if a new manager comes in and immediately implements their rules. And Chris will have steam coming out of his ears at this. But at the same time, those rules could have an effect on you as an individual and your

family. So you... You sign a contract, Mark. Pardon? You sign a contract and everybody knows when they sign to sign a contract. Okay, Chris, but what if a new manager came in here and went, you know what, actually we don't want you to do Mondays anymore, we want you to do Tuesdays and it's starting from next week,

then that would actually give me quite a problem with childcare, for example. Right? So I would then have to push back and go, well hang on a minute, that can't work for me. Well you'll notice, Chappers, that me and Chris are both doing this over Zoom still. Yes. It's not the pandemic anymore. Yeah, but the, and that will be the same. So, right, I want you every Tuesday night to stay before we train on a Wednesday morning. Well, actually I'm not quite sure I can do that because

on a Tuesday night, that's when my wife says a football and therefore I need to be there for the chat. But if that's the discussion, but what I'm saying is and what I've noticed in the start from in my career span, if I'm 20 years old and the manager comes in and says, drop everything, tomorrow we're going away for a week, back in what, 20 years, in 2005, I'm dropping everything. And that's my message at home, I'm not even thinking. If that had happened a year ago whilst I was still playing, and it really, really didn't fit my, like,

I'm talking for me not to do something now, it really would not have to fit, and it would have to affect a lot of people terribly. I'd have felt confident enough to go and knock on the manager's door and say, excuse me. Look, these are my reasons why I'm going to find it really difficult to do what you've just asked me to do. I'd really, really appreciate some understanding, but I literally can't do it.

Give me a week and I will rejig everything and make it happen. But that's the change that I'm talking about. And people would feel I'd have had the conversation, and that's me at a 37 year old, but I'm saying now a 25 year old or 20 year old that I would have been when I'm talking about 20 years ago, they'd have the confidence to have that conversation and they'd have that reasoning and that rationale to say, look, I just need a minute.

It's what's reasonable, Joe and Mark. And I understand what both of you are saying, but basically we're talking about a situation It's what's reasonable, Joe and Mark, and I understand what both of you are saying, but basically we're talking about a situation where a manager of a football club, by the way, who are paying players tens of thousands of pounds a week, is asking a player to stay over for a night. I don't think that's a big deal. I think unless there's a real family issue where you'd hold debt, but don't think that's a big deal. I think, you know, unless there's a real family issue

where, you know, you'd hold, but you'd have that conversation anyway, I understand, you know, I can understand that. But it's what's reasonable. And, you know, clearly, I mean, I could never, Mark, imagine Joe, Rory, having a conversation with Martin O'Neill, who says, "'We're staying in a hotel on Friday night and

I knock on Martin O'Neill's door and say Martin, I'm not staying in a hotel on Friday night, I'm going to stay at home. I mean, could you- Chris, that's what you, sorry to interrupt guys. Chris, no way you could be a modern day manager because trust me- I thought they were all aware of that. No, I genuinely- I genuinely object to proof of that. No, I genuinely... No Joe, I tell you what Joe, don't rule it out. Well, I wouldn't rule it out but honestly

you would be flabbergasted because I know we talk about signing the contract but people, you know, it's a job at the end of the day and like you say you're contractually obliged to do certain things but you're also allowed to stand up for yourself and if you don't want to do something you literally don't have to do it. Hello and welcome to the Inside Track, the Formula One podcast with exclusive access to Red Bull Racing. I'm broadcaster and Formula One fan Rick Edwards. And I'm sports journalist Matt Magendie. Each week we break down the latest F1 news, the backstage gossip and who's under pressure.

This week we'll delve into the truth about Red Bull's so-called crisis talks. Is it a load of bull? And we look ahead to Saudi Arabia. He's really good. He's going to win it. Don't worry about that. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the Inside Track, wherever you get your podcasts. yourself and beyond in the women's game. Wanting to compete, wanting to be there, wanting to push yourself, knowing what the right things are for your body. It's something that's just been drilled in us from a young age and we've just kept it for a long, long time.

Women's Football Weekly, only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC Sounds. This is the Football Daily podcast with Mark Chapman. So on to the news then that Burnley and Leeds have been promoted following their wins against Sheffield United and Stoke. Delighted to say Josh Cullen joins us on the Monday night club evening Josh congratulations. Thank you very much, thank you yeah absolutely delighted. It's been a great day and yeah a nice reward for a long season.

Do you feel nervous throughout the course of the day bearing in mind you're the last game at half five? No I wouldn't say we sort of focused on being the last game obviously the the task was clear we knew that whatever happened elsewhere if we won today then then we'd be going up so we was just full focus on what we needed to do and yeah obviously yeah knowing what was on the line there was a little bit extra edge about the place and we wanted to get it done And thankfully we could we could perform and get over the line and like I said, we're all buzzing your consistency this season I mean, obviously if you get promoted teams tend to be consistent, but I mean your consistency not only in performances but in statistics defensively in particular, which everybody knows about, has been remarkable, really.

Yeah, I mean, it might sound a bit cliche, but honestly we've just took it one game at a time and once we've got a win or a draw or lost a game earlier in the season, we just try to literally forget about it and move on to the next game and make sure that we first and foremost earn the right in every game to be able to play and perform and yeah just make sure that we kept our standards and the Gaffer was a massive sort of driving force in that this season to the way we trained every day to prepare ourselves for games and yeah that's what's done the trick and obviously yeah it's been a great run and yeah really pleased to

get the job done and finish it off today. In taking each game as it comes, do you do things differently day by day defensively or what you work on as a unit, can that stand you in good stead no matter who the opponents are basically? Yeah, I think obviously we always have our principles and our basics that we obviously defend by and that we rely on in every game. But on the other side of the coin, we analyse every opposition and look at their threats and little tweaks that we might have to make

for any certain opposition. We definitely do that. So yeah, we've just been, like I said, them principles have stuck with us throughout the season and we've been adaptable and we've had to change things and make sure that we've been adaptable and we've had to change things And I make sure that that we've paid for for every opposition we faced. Hey Josh Joe Hart here mate. Congratulations It looked unbelievable. We were just watching the scenes I played with Scottie Parker. I'm a big fan of Scottie Parker as a manager Having come in replacing Vincent and you know the way that you guys played and how the Premier League season played out I'm just interested what his message was at the start the season

For you guys all to buy into with a total change in kind of play and system and mindset Yeah, I think like I touched on before it was it was that attitude first and foremost That we couldn't waste a minute every minute we had in the training in the training ground Where that was on the pitch or in the meeting room and what we needed to work on. That we're going to be relentless in everything we do and we're going to leave no stone unturned. And he come in with that message from the start. He said he believed in us as a group at the start of the season. That's why he took the job. And yeah, it was over to us to repay that faith in him. And like I said, we've worked so hard this season and yeah all the

people behind the scenes that don't get to perform on a match day, the physios, the analysts, the coaching staff, honestly they've all been amazing and yeah it's been a great season. I interviewed one of your co-owners Josh not that long ago in JJ Watt who is one of the most impressive individuals I think I've ever met in my life. Does he fly you all out to America for some celebrations? It would be nice yeah I think that's on the card so I'm sure a few other lads would be on to JJ tonight and we'll see what he can sort out. Do you have much to do with him? He comes over to a fair few games to be fair. He spent a few days with us at the training ground as well, not only this season but he come in last season as well when obviously we were struggling a bit and he's great to have around the place. Obviously someone who's

been so successful in his field and what he's done and to learn off him over the few days we got to spend with him was brilliant and have a chat with him and talk about his mindset and what made him so successful was really helpful. So yeah, it's been good to have him around the place when we did. He's one of the biggest people and persons I've ever ever met. He's huge. Just as a side show. Josh, thank you very much. Are you celebrating tonight? Yeah we sure are. So I'll get back in the change room and have a few beers there. I'm sure there will be. Thank you Josh. Take care. Congratulations Josh.

Colour Withers, Burnley have gone up. What's wrong Chris? Are you celebrating? They've just got promotion. No, we're just going home. Seasons not over yet Chris. Seasons not over yet, they may want to you know... Might want to win the title. I don't celebrate at all. You happy for them? Yeah, they deserve it. Yeah, really happy. You sure?

Yeah. From a black boom striker, Chris Sutton. Happy. You sure? Yeah. Yeah. All right. From a blackbird striker, Chris Hudson. Chappers, Daniel Farker was asked about, I think, at the press conference after the sixth and the winning game at Stoke, today whether he'd be celebrating if Burnley didn't lose to Sheffield United. His leads would have gone up, obviously, with a draw. And he said that he would be, if they did do up, he'd be like a fire beast, which I

think is possibly the best quote I've ever heard from anybody, he'd be like a fire beast, which I think is possibly the best quote I've ever heard from anybody. What I don't know what... Quite what Daniel Farker is doing on the head row in Leeds at the moment, I have no idea. Well let's get some reaction from Leeds, also promoted, here's Dan James. I think for us, it's been such a long season and we had that thought last season of what happened at the end of the season, we obviously were gutted not to get in the top two and go up. And we had to dust ourselves down going to playoffs.

And we got so far and went all the way to the end of May. And we didn't we didn't quite get it. And I think all the season going into every game, we've really felt that that feeling. Basically, I think last three or four games, especially when we were eight points clear and the gap kind of closed. I think about all our boys, I know a lot of them, a lot of boys weren't there last season but the boys who were, that feeling of how good we were to not go up, we didn't want that again and it was about keep pushing and I thought last three definitely we've been unbelievable and today, you know, we'll play with full confidence.

Let's indulge you then, Dan, at 12 goals this season. How much do you think you've developed as a player and now you're a Premier League player? Yeah, definitely it's been, you know, these last two seasons have gone so quick. It's not finished quite yet, but yeah, it's been unbelievable. As I said from the start of last year, the manager put, you know, his arm around me and it's always great to have that support from the manager and he's pushed me on from then. It's been an unbelievable season and to get the rewards now, especially after what we felt last season, I can't really explain it, but it's unbelievable to share that with the players, the staff, everyone who's worked so hard, but also the fans. We've got 25,000 waiting for us outside the stadium now and we're really going to celebrate with them tonight. We deserve this and so do they. Dan James on Leeds being promoted talking to Adam Pope.

Bearing in mind we spent a lot of the start of this show talking about Leicester. Don't want to be negative about Leeds and Burnley going up. But bearing in mind we've talked about styles of play and what footballers buy into and you said you know Scott Parker. Has what Scott Parker done with Burnley this season and the way he has made them so defensively strong, 15 goals in 44 games they've conceded, they've kept 29 clean sheets, they haven't conceded more than one goal in any game. Does that set up make them different to the promoted sides who came up last year?

Yeah, I think so. He's made it very clear that he wants a rock solid team you know I was just seeing on the monitor that's his third that's his third promotion that's impressive he knows what to do in that championship and he knows how to to win games and look there's no way he's gonna come away from that next season absolutely no way especially after what he's seen in the last two seasons from newly promoted sides. I think we're going to see a total different approach from the promoted sides. I think fans are going to have to get on board that their teams are going to be really, really looking to just grind out results and earn their status in the Premier League. I mean, you know, entitlement

is one word that's been used, but it's just that optimism of coming into the Premier League thinking we're going to really establish ourselves and put our football on the map in the Premier League from day one. I think it's been very much shown over the last two seasons. What an impressive league this is. And you really have to be squeaky clean if you want to play that sort of football because you will get picked apart and hurt.

I think that I think the teams coming up now will address that with a clear game plan and right down the other end of the scale of what we've seen at the very top. I mean some of the stats comparing the two Chris, you know Burnley drew 16 of their games this season, they've only lost two, they've had a ridiculous number of nil nils in there. They've only scored 61 compared to Leeds as 89. But actually given what we've seen from Southampton, given what we've seen from Ipswich, given what we've seen at times from Leicester, being dull might be the best way of staying up.

Yeah, it's about trying to find that balance. It's going to be really difficult for them. If you look at the bottom three this season, Ipswich conceded 71 goals, Leicester 73, Southampton 78, that's more than two goals every game they're conceding. It's nigh impossible to stay in the Premier League if that is the case, but it will be interesting, the summer of recruitment, because you feel maybe they need to be a little bit stronger at the top end of the pitch. A lot was made about Vincent Coen and his brand of football. It's just that first season, we've spoken about it before.

Trying to get that foothold, just staying in the Premier League no matter how you do it. Try and get over the line. Having a solid foundation, well, that's the best way to go, I think. But you know, it's a level up, isn't it? And that's, that's the issue. I think if you, if you take the lesson, the lesson of Leicester, you probably need something to set you apart.

Leicester came up and it was kind of amorphous and indistinct. Whereas the teams that have amorphous, sorry, kind of clarification. It was what? Shape, shapeless. There was nothing defined about Leicester. You and me both on that one. The, whereas you look at the teams that have come up in previous years and stayed up, Brentford, Brighton teams like that, they have been Bournemouth, they have had a thing that they do well, whether it's off-pitch data recruitment, that sort of thing, or whether it's a defined style

of play on it. And I think you can probably put Burnley being defensive and cautious as maybe a competitive edge to an extent. Leeds, I think, will be a lot more like the teams who've come up more recently. Farquhar plays a certain way, but as a lead's well-wisher I'd very much like to see them go and sign some really experienced, battle-hardened defenders and defensive midfielders in the summer Just because they've got the attacking talent leads in players like Nonto, players like Solomon They can score goals in the Premier League I think, but they will ship a lot unless they solidify fairly rapidly and fairly impressively. That's interesting about Daniel Falker because when he was manager of Norwich and got them up and he talked about learning lessons of the past when he got them back up after they'd

had a season back in the championship, they'd had Premier League football and it was a disaster, Norwich City's first season, but he didn't really change the way that he played second time round. And with Leeds and the demands at Leeds as well, the fans want to see entertaining football, but I am with Rory that they really need to stiffen up at the back. I think that that will be an issue for him but I just, my feeling is that he won't change still and he'll still try and play that sort of expansive brand of football which he which he does do and you know has he got the players you know to cope at Premier League level I'm not so sure he has. But you can play that way and be successful Enough to stay up if you have a degree of experience and I think one of the mistakes

Quite a lot of teams have made in the last few years is that it's one thing Coming up and saying we want to pass it around We want to you know, we want to draw the press do all that stuff You know We want to play in the half turn and all the stuff that Joe kind of said earlier that that's what young players want to play in the half turn, all the stuff that Joe said earlier that that's what young players want to do now. But you can't do that and do it with young players straight away. You have to build into that. I feel looking at what's happened to the newly promoted sides the last two years, one of

the lessons is you just need two or three people in there who are 29 and have played 107 games in the Premier League. That's what you need. You need to go and get those players because they won't be able to do that. To do that, adapt and have that flexibility to say, do you know what? We do just need to batten down the hatches for 20 minutes and get through this. Did Leicester not have that? No, I was going to say, do you think?

Leicester maybe did have it, yeah. Do you think Forest are a great example and giving people some breathing space in terms of, you know, selling that style of football to a newly promoted team, to Elise. Yes, probably. They had two seasons, Joe, didn't they? Getting a foothold in the struggle and the spend? 100%. But I feel like Forrest, the Premier League, got really caught up in that, the complete total soccer and that was going to take over, that was going to take over everything at every level. I think often I hear people talking about it's not just the Man City's of this world trying to play, you go right the way down the leagues and everyone's

still trying to play it. I watched my son's Under 11 football on a Saturday, standard, and they're looking to play football. It felt like it was going to sweep over everywhere. And I think these two relegation seasons and people struggling trying to play that way, even you know, Ange at Tottenham has just refreshed everyone in terms of thinking of how they want to do things and what is successful, what is a successful team and you know, Chris will love that, that's music, is getting results and winning games. There's always been a cyclical element to football and it's one of the things that's quite curious at the moment, you're right Joe, that there has been that kind of gwardiolification

of everything, that everyone wants to do the things that Pep does, even if they don't have the players to do the things that Pep does. But normally if you look back through the last 50 years of football history, maybe more, what happens is someone comes up with an innovation, like some tactic that works. Everyone else either copies it or works out how to blunt it. And then once a style is established, someone comes on and says, well, if we just do this dip completely differently, that thing won't work anymore. And it's felt for a while as though we do a little bit of a kind of correction where

maybe I'm, I mean, I obviously know know nothing about football but I'm a bit surprised there aren't more teams playing with two strikers because I bet most central defenders will never have played against two strikers and would have no idea what to do against them. It would confuse everybody. 4-4-2 whip it in the box. 4-4-2 well how about you play the winners on the right side where their feet are and you look at Forrest that's what Forrest do, Anthony Alanga in particular putting balls in for Chris Wood and lo and behold, Chris Wood who has had a great career but is a journeyman striker really, has stood what, $19 in the Premier League?

Most of them with his head? But that journeyman, journeyman's a bit disrespectful isn't it? Maybe, he's a New Zealander, I'm sure he's a very calm, composed, rational man, he'll accept it. But that's why with Leeds, there's no... I mean, you can plan and sort of recruit what you think might work. And you're sort of 29-year-old with 100 Premier League games, as I said. 100-and-7. 100, right.

It's very important. It hasn't massively worked for Leicester. Leeds may go, well,, actually we've got Joe Rodon who I think is 27, we've got Ampardue who is now 26 I think, who have probably got, you know, triple figure career games in them, maybe not all in the Premier League, but are certainly more experienced

than when Leeds went down. But then it hinges on their attacking players are great. Pirro, who I've had Leeds fans question Pirro at times to me for the chances he misses, and yet he's the championship top scorer. So if Pirro gets off to a good start in the Premier League and can contribute double figures in goals, all of a sudden that changes that.

None of it's an exact science, is my point. No, and you have to be really, really sharp with your recruitment and you'd hope from, again, from a Leeds well-wisher point of view, you would hope that having access to the Red Bull kind of Empire They would have some some kind of access to the Red Bull recruitment strategy, which generally seems to be pretty good I think I know you mean about road at road and and Ampidou. You're right. I think you need I Don't know like Abdul-an-dekor raise on a free transfer from Everton. I think a player like that Would would massively benefit any of the promoted teams.

Does he, you know, he is a kind of... Is he going to leave Everton, is he? I don't know, but I think his contract is up this summer. Who is agent? No, absolutely, I'm not. I think Garner Gaye's on her. And Garner Gaye's on the free as well, yeah. Is Dominic Calvert-Lewin up at the end of the season as well?

Don't know. Maybe. Are you just sending several Everton players to leagues? I just, the way to be successful in staying up in the Premier League is to sign as many Everton players as you can. I'm not so sure David Moyes would like to hear you getting some of his best players out. D'Corey is just the best example I can think of. You need players of that ilk who've been around, who are

premierly proven, who can fit into various different systems, have a little bit of buy in, a little bit of battle about them And I think that's what one thing, Leicester did have it to an extent, players like Conor Cody Maybe they didn't have enough of it and they didn't have enough attacking talent around it to score goals I think that is the one thing Leeds miss. Burnley on the opposite, Burnley will need someone, they will need someone to score goals. I think that is the one thing Leeds miss. Burnley are the opposite. Burnley will need someone. They will need someone to score goals, because you can't draw your way to survival.

Can I just say about Burnley and the earlier debate we were having about knowledgeable players, fair play to the young Burnley players who bought into that change of style. Yes. to the young Burnley players who bought into that change of style. Yeah, the other thing, they will both have Leeds and Burnley interesting goalkeeping situations to address in the summer, whether that is James Trafford, who is courted by a lot of clubs and had a really difficult time last time in the Premier League,

but has probably, along with Mike Cooper at Sheffield United, been the goalkeeper of the season in the championship, you would probably say? He's a different human now, I mean physically. I mean growth-wise, he really looks like a big, strong goalkeeper. I think when he first moved to Burnley to play, and Vincent knew what he was capable of, but being capable and being able to prove it at that highest level is tough. And he just felt, he didn't feel right.

But you know, I love him, he's so confident, you know, he's very charismatic and he really believes in himself and I know for a fact that he's been working hard on his physical development and he looks like, there's some stats that he's produced this year and absolutely you know, formidable in goal for Burnley and he will be center of plenty of activity this summer. Whereas Leeds will probably maybe be looking for a new goalkeeper. I just can't work it out you know I remember when he first came to the Premier League and I actually remember him playing against Arsenal in the in the Carabao Cup four Leeds when he was really young and I thought wow who is this goalkeeper?

He was baby faced, but he was incredible, great left foot, absolute cat. But he just seems to be, I've let some really disappointing goals in at big moments for Leeds this year, of which when Sam Allardyce famously came in, he took him straight out of the team. There's a top, top goalkeeper in him. There really, really is. Whether he's going to get the chance again at Leeds, who knows? I don't know his contract situation. Like I say, everyone will see every day that there is a top goalkeeper there with

everything that it takes. But whether they've got the patience to let him see what he can do in the Premier League, I don't know. We will end it there. Thank you very much. Rory, Chris, thank you as well. That's it for this episode of the Football Daily. On the next one is the Women's Football Weekly. Hello and welcome to the Inside Track, the Formula One podcast with exclusive access to Red Bull Racing. I'm broadcaster and Formula One fan Rick Edwards. And I'm sports journalist Matt Magindy. Each week we break down the latest F1 news, the backstage gossip and who's under pressure.

This week we'll delve into the truth about Red Bull's so-called crisis talks. Is it a load of bull? And we look ahead to Saudi Arabia. He's really good. He's going to win it. Don't worry about that. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the Inside Track, wherever you get your podcasts.