Football Daily - Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

‘Bricklayer’ Arteta lays foundations and will Rashford use the M6 Toll? Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Theo Walcott to break down Arsenal’s 5-1 win over Manchester City. Hear from Jack Wilshere on Arsenal youngsters Ethan Nwaneri and Myles Lewis-Skelly. The panel also discuss Marcus Rashford’s move to Aston Villa and whether Ruben Amorim has gone too experimental at Man Utd.07:05 Arsenal-Man City ‘weird rivalry’ delivers 17:00 Does Haaland need to get involved more? 22:20 Wilshere on Nwaneri & Lewis-Skelly 40:30 Marcus Rashford to Aston Villa 50:00 Do Man Utd know what they’re doing?BBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this week: Wed 5 Feb 2000 Newcastle v Arsenal in Carabao Cup, Thu 6 Feb 2000 Liverpool v Tottenham in Carabao Cup, Fri 7 Feb 2000 Man Utd v Leicester in FA Cup.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcast. This is Five Live Sports. The Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Monday Night Club in the company of Theo Walcott and Rory Smith and Chris Sutton. Are you one of the journalists that needs their phone right by them on deadline day, Rory? No, not really, but I'm quite nosy. So you'll see me on the Zoom just sort of checking it occasionally,

just in case anything's happening. It feels to me like deadline day isn't quite what it was, if I'm honest. Was it ever? Have you got a scoop? No, Chris, I don't. I wouldn't pretend to have a scoop of any sort. Not even involving some Ecuadorian left-back in their second division? I mean, if you want an Ecuadorian left-back story,

then I suppose I'm as good a bet as any. But no, not even involving that. I think the clubs are too clever for it, for the most part, to be honest. The teams that are kind of well-run and know what they're doing and aren't panicking, they're generally tucked up in bed by this stage. You can see why Spurs have added a couple late on, because of the injuries. Although they have had a rollercoaster,

I mean, without using a cliche, they've had a rollercoaster 72 hours when it comes to players linked, who they might get in, who they might not get in. Yeah, well, Matisse Tell hasn't, it doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of Tottenham, does it? That he's sort of gone, yeah, all right then, fine, at the end. But he's a very good player. But I'm

just, even with Spurs, I'm a bit surprised. I mean, it's not like the injuries have just happened. I don't quite understand why they've waited quite so long to get, to bring in, say, Kevin Danso when it's been obvious for ages they needed the centre-half. They need all the help they can get, right? That's for sure right now. Well, they need bodies, don't they, Theo? I mean, they do.

They do. The reason why I say that is because just the way Ange plays, he plays high intensity. They need the bodies. They need the personnel. They need the competitiveness to just take the pressure off Son a little bit as well at times. I just feel like it's quite a lot of pressure on him,

not being a main man away from Kane. So I just think it might just help him. He's started to actually pick it up as well I feel now son it's always one of those as a player comes in all the players raise their game massively so

and it was a good performance the other day really really good for Tottenham Were you ever close to moving on deadline day? Did you move in January?

I did I moved I moved twice yeah I moved What in the same month? No I mean that was a ringing endorse, in the same month? No. I mean, God, that was a ringing endorsement at the first club that got you.

Ooh. So I moved from Arsenal to Everton, but it's mad because people don't really understand at times. You have to be somewhere at some point and suddenly you might not get that move. I had to go up in the evening about nine o'clock and the security guy had to open up the Arsenal training ground

for myself to go get my boots. Considering I've been at the club for 12 years and then I've grabbed my stuff in a bin bag. I filmed myself as well just because I thought this might be the last time I'm here. Walking the lonely corridor, shall we just say.

And it's a lonely place it could be. It really was. And I just had to get up north because I had to be there at a certain time because it was, it wasn't deadline day, but I only had a few days

to really come to terms with it. And then the Southampton one from Everton, it was alone. That was quite late, to be honest. Again, not deadline day, but I took a pay cut,

which wasn't about the money at that stage for me. It was already mapped out where I wanted to finish my career. So I wanted to do everything I could to play at Southampton, really. But yeah, no, it's exciting as well. I mean, I had an instant, even when I was at Southampton, that I could have potentially gone to West Brom,

speaking to Alex Bruce and, you know, at the club. Obviously, his old man was the manager at the time. But I just didn't think it suited me. But yeah, you just get some random things, of course, but it was quite exciting. I mean, but that's also quite sad. I mean, it makes you sound like sort of Dick Whittington in reverse there, leaving Arsenal with a bin bag over your shoulder

and heading north, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's not as glamorous as you think. Some people obviously seeing players jump on private planes. Obviously, I didn't go for the private plane option. I don't think that was an option for me at the time. Not with Everton's finances, I don't think. Just had a driver, yeah. But no, look, at times it's the glamour that people don't see,

but it's also the other side of it, the family side, that you've just got to leave the house and just leave to it and then try and arrange everything else after that. So it's a very unusual experience. Do you go back to say. And then, you know, try and arrange, you know, everything else after that. So it's a very unusual experience. Do you go back to say goodbye, even once you've signed? No, so when I moved to Everton, I played Arsenal two weeks later. And that was really my goodbyes then, really,

for all the players and the manager. And we lost 5-1, I think, actual 5-0 at the time. Big Sam was the manager and he took me off after 3-0 and he says, Theo, we don't need you for the rest of the game, actual 5-0 at the time. Big Sam was the manager and he took me off after 3-0. He says, Theo, we don't need you for the rest of this game. We'll save you for the weekend. But it was a bit surreal because I still felt like I was an arsehole player because it was too soon, too soon to go back to my club. I've been there for 12 years.

Chris, they didn't have deadline day, did they, I suppose, when you were playing? Come on, Mark, you're better than that. No, no, no, Chris, he's not far on. 2002're better than that. No, no, no. Chris, he's not far on. 2002 was the first one. Well, I moved after that, Rory. I moved from Celtic. Five and a half years at Celtic, then Gordon Strachan came in

and we didn't see eye to eye. And I ended up moving to Birmingham in January and taking them down to the championship. So, yeah, that didn't go overly well. I didn't film myself. Yeah, I mean, they didn't have cameras. Can I ask you about Gordon Strachan? Because I had him briefly when I was at Saints,

when I was coming through. Obviously, if it's only clean, of course. But I remember my experience with Gordon Strachan. We did staff matches against the younger players, and he loved it. He was probably one of the best players at the time at the club, which said much about the academy, but we were pretty tidy. It was a new system, new players coming through,

and a player nutmegged him and called nutmegs. After that, he grabbed him, pulled him, and said, look, any of that again, you're gone. And the player nutmegged him and called nutmegs. After that, he grabbed him, pulled him and said, look, any of that again, you're gone. And the player nutmegged him again, but didn't call it this time. And then the staff matches were kaput, never played them again. So it was, I can't remember the player.

So yeah, it just really, I love those moments. Just seeing the staff get involved. They were excellent as well, especially when it went to one touch. But yeah, he had a bit of a mad side to him, Gordon Strachan. My experience is of him anyway. Yeah, I just, yeah, I thought he was odd. A little bit weird.

He turned me over over a contract situation. And that's, you know, basically it, really. So we didn't see eye to eye. So I ended up leaving. We get on now, Gordon, when I see him, as long as I agree with everything he says.

But it's still a twist. It's quite nice to know that Celtic's loss was Birmingham's loss. That's what you mean. Gordon did well at Celtic. He did do. You know, I have to say that. And I wasn't with him long enough to know whether he was a good coach,

but he did very well at Celtic. We're obviously going to start with Arsenal 5, Manchester City 1 at the Emirates yesterday. Did you like all the needle, Rory? I'm going to come to you first because you're the kind of person who might not like the needle, but did you like it all? Yeah, I realise that I kind of get cast as the kind of hoity-toity, kind of pompous Puritan, but it's much better when you get the sense the players really don't like each other.

It's much more fun. Yeah, no, it is. It's a slightly weird rivalry, Arsenal and City, I think. It's felt for a while. Well, I think it's felt for a while a little bit one-sided. It's felt as though, logically,

City kind of play this role, this like final boss role for Arsenal they're the team they're trying to emulate and catch and overhaul so obviously City start to occupy quite a big space in in Arsenal's head but I thought I remember thinking after the two all in September the stay humble game the the reaction from City after that made it pretty clear that they spent quite a lot of time thinking about Arsenal as well, because it wasn't just Haaland throwing the ball

at Gabriel's head. It wasn't just Haaland telling Arteta to stay humble. He called Gabriel Jesus, his own former teammate, a clown, which I think is a bit weird if it's your former colleague. He asked Miles Lewis-Skelly who he was, which at that stage, I suppose, was probably fair enough, but isn't now.

And then there was the stuff after the game when John Stones came out and talked about the dark arts and Bernardo Silva gave a very sweet, but slightly odd interview in which he said that, he kind of implied that Liverpool were sort of more worthy of City's attention than Arsenal, which I thought was a strange thing to say

about a team that had run them pretty close to the title two years in a row. So I think that they have started to occupy each other's thoughts. And obviously that's mirrored throughout the clubs. They are diametrically opposed on the issue of state ownership. They are diametrically opposed

on the issue of financial control. They do not see eye to eye in lots and lots of different ways. And that very clearly manifests on the pitch. And as much as you're meant to say, no, no, no, no, don't want that, you know, sporting stuff, it does make for a more interesting game. What do you mean that clearly manifests itself on the pitch,

the difference between the ownership? How? Well, maybe it's not directly related to it, but I think there is a sense that Arsenal and Manchester City are opposed to each other in a way that is not necessarily normal, even in more traditional rivalries. You know, if you look at Liverpool and Man United, the owners are friends, and I think quite a lot of the players are friends as well, to be honest.

I don't get the sense that there is a huge amount of love lost in a professional context between Arsenal and Man City in terms of the players, and that's why the games have been quite fractious. Does that ring true to you, Theo? I mean, obviously that rivalry wasn't there as much in your time at Arsenal, but how Rory has framed the two clubs,

does that make sense to you? Yeah, it does. I agree, Rory, actually. I feel at times, looking back at previous fixtures with Mikel, I always felt like he was a bit fearful of Pep even when you go and say hello to him before the game it was just like a like a boy should we just say against the man it's still like master apprentice yeah basically yeah exactly that and I just felt yesterday there was a bit more of a presence we spoke about Mikel Arteta's aura at times in interviews and how he takes himself around the place, the environment, but it just felt a different presence about him when he met Pep.

I felt just first impressions of a game of the stature of Mikel just felt raised. And I never really had that before going into an Arsenal game and all that feeling that actually I think he's really confident. And as well, the performance and the risks that he took, because I think they had to take risks. You know, previous games they haven't. They've been too cautious. And I think Mikel Arteta finally realised that I have to do something completely different to get a result, which Pep wouldn't have expected

because they built that tempo. As soon as that tempo sped up, they just couldn't cope. And there's a lot of teams doing this to Man City anyway, but I felt even Pep was fearful of the whole environment it felt like he a shadow of himself you know he's always comfortable even on the sideline his presence didn't seem he just seemed timid and I think that's that's something that's a sign that's been happening recently but the other the other thing it did Chris which which Theo mentioned last night on Match of the Day 2 was, it sort of created a bear pit of an atmosphere right from the start at a ground where sometimes the atmosphere in the past has been criticised.

But you want those games like that to have that animosity on the field that the fans can feed off. I mean, you will have experienced that many times in, you know, the old firms are prime example. Yeah. Norwich Ipswich as well, Mark. A little bit disrespectful there to the East Anglian Derby. But you had, like, I think Theo is right. He put it very well.

You've got the power sort of dwindlers in Manchester City and other clubs are sensing it and going in for the kill. And that's what I felt Arsenal did yesterday. Arsenal were powerhouses. And from the off, they were just so much more aggressive, intense. And I think the players really you know, really sense that. And they were a unit in Manchester City. They're just sort of botched together at this moment in time.

You look at the back line, Nunes playing at right back. You know, John Stones has been a brilliant player, but he's barely fit. Bernardo Silva has been a brilliant player for Manchester City, but he just can't run anymore. And I think Arsenal sensed that, sensed that Arsenal felt that they had the physicality in the game. And they went in for the kill and absolutely destroyed Manchester City.

And look, I know we'll get on to Manchester City later, but it is hard to see how Manchester City in the short term are going to come back from this because it's not just Arsenal who are sensing it, as Theo said. I think it's interesting that City and Chris, and this is hard for me to say, I think Chris has alluded to this and he's been right, which is not a comfortable position for any of us to be in, really. But it always felt, even when City had those,

there was six wins in eight they were on at one point? And there was the collapse against PSG and that was troubling and losing the two goals at Brentford late on. It did feel as though City

had come out of the worst of it. But at no point has it looked like City have actually solved any of the underlying problems because, I mean, the last few minutes yesterday the game that reminded me of most was when City under Mancini went to Old Trafford and won 6-1 in the derby

when I think was that 3-1 after 80 minutes or something and there was a point where yeah I remember if Ferdi said later something on the lines of United couldn't shut up shop, that the sensible thing to do there was just to say right we've lost this game let's just make sure it's not a humiliation but United kept pouring forwards and City kept catching them out on the break and Balotelli got two, I think David Silva strawed as well and it turned what would have been

like a famous win for Manchester City at a time when the power balance in Manchester, younger listeners, did not used to look like this one it turned it from a famous win into kind of this thing that they still sing about now and they will sing about forever, City. It felt yesterday, I didn't understand why City were leaving themselves so exposed when it was obvious, and it should have been obvious for months because it's been happening since the Spurs game, that if Arsenal got a free

run at them City didn't have the legs to keep up and yet for the fourth goal I think was it a three on two at one point started on the edge of Arsenal's box

there were City players who just kind of looked like they were running through treacle as Arsenal I think Declan Rice was the one carrying the

ball just sort of strode away through the middle of the pitch and that turned what would have been a really important win in the context of the title race a really important win psychologically for Arsenal because of what

you know the role that City have played for them over the last few years it turned it into this this kind of historic thing where Arsenal didn't just beat Manchester City they absolutely humiliated them and I'm surprised that City lacked the like the game sense almost to think okay look this this game has gone beyond us now. We just need to shut up shop. Maybe we nick one from a corner or something, but we get out of here at least with our pride intact. Whereas Arsenal, they gave Arsenal 10 minutes

to take it away from them. Do you think they're playing off, this might sound ridiculous, playing off memory Manchester City because they have become so used to dictating. They've dictated the Premier League now for the last four seasons. And there's an element of just they're on autopilot and they can play how they like.

Well, and that's why they keep getting caught. Yeah, well, maybe so. And yet Arsenal are playing in the here and now and in the moment. And, you know, players, you know, I don't... Bernardo Silva's been a fantastic player, now and in the moment. Bernardo Silva's been a fantastic player, but I look at him in games now and I think the game passes him by physically. And I do think that he has been an issue at Manchester City this season.

He's not the only one. I mean, Kevin De Bruyne had sort of in and out of the team at this moment in time. Gundogan, I think Rory said it a while back bringing him back from Barcelona Gundogan you know all fabulous players but everybody has a you know a time when when their form mainly because of physicality takes a dip and you just you know you just look at Arsenal's midfield yesterday. Party was immense, wasn't he? Rice, tremendous athlete. They were just overpowered.

You mentioned, look, we're going to come back to Arsenal and their kids and their attitude and everything in a minute. But as you've sort of gone down the City route, and as this was your position, Chris, you mentioned several players there, but you didn't mention Haaland. And Thierry Henry on Sky said yesterday, I wouldn't have been able to cope with the lack of service.

Something would have happened. I would have gone to get it, touch it back, do something. We all know Haaland will suffer if his team is not dominating the game. If his team is dominating, we all know he is going to score at will. Even your strong point, your speed, you're not utilising that. You're not running in behind.

We've seen a guy here recently in Alexander Isak who gave Gabriel the whole game a hard time in behind. So what has happened to that? Drop, spin. I don't understand why number nines don't do that anymore. We can't challenge him on what he cannot do, but he's supposed to do this well, and he didn't. Is it on the team to get him more involved

or he himself to get more involved or the coach to get him more involved? Or all of them? I think maybe there's an element of him becoming so used to the way the team has played since he's been there. And it's a bit like clockwork. They play in a particular fashion and he's used to that.

But are we judging Haaland on one game or are we judging him over the course of the season? His numbers are still pretty incredible. I think he's second top scorer behind Mo Salah. So I think with Haaland, we're looking at the wrong person in this team. He had nine touches in the game. But he would be following, I'm pretty sure, how Pep is telling the team to play as much as anything.

I don't think that, I mean, there are elements within the game where you have to be sort of slightly off the cuff, but I suspect he'd just be, you know, get used to being in that rhythm of the way that Manchester City play and that's that. Can he offer more in certain circumstances? I think he can, but I think if you look at, you know, Thierry Henry was a different striker to Erling Haaland where he used to like to drift out to that left-hand side

and get involved. I think Haaland is, you know, different in that he plays in between the centre-halves and plays high and occupies the two centre-backs. So they're different types of players. But I don't know whether if he started to do that, Erling Haaland, whether Pep would tell him not to. You said about there, just at the end there, about occupying the centre-halfs.

At no point during the game did I see him do those second moves, even if it was a split-second movement by coming to ball and spinning, but not even going in behind, just to have the intent to keep on your toes at the centre-half. Because as I was a player, I would always of to keep on your toes as a centre-half because as I was a player I would always want to keep my defender guessing and it was just too clear and obvious for Gabriel and Saliba what he was going to do he was just walking around and I think all we're trying to say I think Thierry's trying to allude it today is just try to do something different just to keep

them guessing keep moving into different areas He was just quite lethargic. Even in the build-up, we felt quite lethargic at Man City and I felt at times it didn't help the fact he was walking around. Look, I would love to have played with him because he's a player that I would have really linked up tremendously well. But I just feel there's an element of himself, going back to him, that he needs to think of his strengths and actually put his body around. He didn't put his body around at all.

And I don't know if it's because of the previous game at the start of the season or everything that was going on at the Emirates and things saying, but it's like his mind was somewhere else, I felt, that game. And it was passing him by, but he's still got his goal. He's still got his goal and he's about got his goal and he's still he's about numbers like you say Chris he's about numbers look I just feel

he needs to do more in moments when they're struggling but Man City for me at times do become quite predictable in the build up quite slow and give teams to

get back into shape Arsenal yesterday didn't give Man City any opportunity to get back into their positions because you're going back to the players

that can't cope physically they just they know this City and teams know this now that they can outrun people any opportunity to get back into their positions because you're going back to the players that can't cope physically. They know this City and teams know this now that they can outrun people. You're saying about Nunes on the right back. I'll be better off putting him in the field because at least he's got legs. You need more legs in that team and I just think that's their biggest struggles

right now for me. I do wonder though whether Haaland not being involved in the game indicates that maybe Chris is right on the sense that there's an element of City kind of playing to a system that they're used to. They're doing the jobs that they've been instructed to do by Guardiola.

They're treating it as though they are still, you know, the City that we all saw and remembered. And then there's maybe elements of not changing certain things. Because Haaland, when City were brilliant, Haaland wasn't massively involved in the build-up, not really. His job was to kind of stand at the top end of the pitch and find that gap and then exploit it ruthlessly,

which he's obviously brilliant at. But you wonder whether that, it feels like that clearly isn't working. It hasn't been working for three or four months now. So it is strange to me that he wouldn't think, I mean, obviously I wasn't a professional footballer, but I like to think that if I'd not touched the ball for 15 minutes, I might think, I should quite fancy going footballer but I like to think that if I'd not touched the ball for 15 minutes I might think

I should quite fancy going and touching the ball to be honest I'll just come a little bit deeper and get involved with the play as a fan it's quite hard to understand why a player wouldn't do that unless they're following instructions from their manager not to do that Let's flip it to Arcel

and Waineri and Lewis Skelly and hear from Jack Wilshere, who was the head coach of the Arsenal Under-18s until October, until he left to become first-team coach at Norwich. He was at the Emirates yesterday. Of course, I want Arsenal to do well. I want the team to do well.

But I was really happy as well for Ethan, Juanieri, Miles, Lewis Skelly, who obviously played in my team before. And there's a lot of good players in Arsenal's academy. And I think you see two young players making an impact in big games. You know, Miles has played in Champions League now. I think he played in the FA Cup against United, big game. And they're actually making a difference, scoring goals and helping the team.

And I think that's credit to everyone in the academy. Listen, I only worked with them for two years out of a spell I think they've been there for nine ten years so there's some amazing work that's gone into them amazing work to to convince them that this is the right club then the relationship between academy and first team to say well actually yeah these are two good players and the academy see it so come on let's give them a chance and trust them and I think that builds a lot of trust within the club the beauty about them too and the good thing about them too is they wouldn't want me to sit here and say yeah they're amazing and they're going to go on to do this this and this they're good and have a high high ceiling but it's down to them i always

say that it's down to them now and you know you can you can try and give them as much experiences as you can try and develop them as as players as you can, try and develop them as players, as people. But ultimately, to get in the team, you have to earn the manager's trust. But they're on the right track. And more importantly, I think they've got the right guidance around them in terms of the club, in terms of their parents. I know them. And they'll make sure that they're doing the right things. And yeah, they've got a high ceiling, but it's down to them.

I think we interviewed him on a train platform by the sound of it. The two of them, look, we had a discussion about this last night, Theo. You have been in this very position, and you were around the club in the summer as well. And the thing you have spoken about with those two is the way they carry themselves. An aura that they have around themselves, not in a look-at-me kind of way,

but just that they feel like they belong. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I mean, it's the fact when you walk in the corridor and you see them, they have this big presence. And I always used to think when I saw Thierry when I joined the club, like, goodness me, Thierry Henry, and even at their age right now, particularly Ethan Ethan more so

than Myles I think Myles is still learning that trade I think the more and more games he's experiencing and he's you can see it coming out of him now of the shell but Ethan had this real big presence of even when you get into the lift you think goodness me these guys are just absolute giants now you may not look on the, but just the way he presents himself, the way he walks, the way he talks. I mean, there's credit to obviously Jack. I think he's taken credit away from himself quite a bit because I think those elements of those two years he worked with him are so key

because of the age Jack Wilshire is at, the way he can connect, his experiences coming through at 16, playing against one of the two best, well, Xabi and Iniesta at the time I don't know if many people remember that performance but that certainly always comes to mind for me when I think of Jack Wilshere that's where he became the player he was and he would have just shared so many insights but like he says it was down to those players and I just

feel there's a sense of you have to be like that a little bit. I wasn't like that as a player. I was a little bit more sheepish. And at times on the field, that's where I wanted to come out. Did that hold you back, do you think, within a first-team dressing room environment? You've already mentioned it. That sort of, oh, my God, it's Thierry Henry.

At what point do you – is it an age thing? Is it after a number of games for you that you felt, okay, I belong in this setup? Well, what it was, I'm a kid going into it, and the Invincible dressing rooms was a little bit different to the dressing room in Arsenal at this moment in time. Thinking, goodness me, I'm out of my depth here. And then suddenly I'm on grass to a World Cup.

So I had a lot of things going on in my mind when my mind was still developing at the time. And I think the great thing they've done about Ethan they took him away for a period of time when he was probably still ready but maybe they learned not learning a lesson for myself I still had a very incredible you know great career and scoring over 100 goals for Arsenal but I get a sense that you have to protect and let them develop a little bit more in the background I think the fact that I went to the world Cup was always everything's going to be really highlighted by the way I go out or everyday training.

So it's very different and the times are different, paparazzi, et cetera, et cetera. But these guys are now in a world of social media, which obviously plays its highs and lows to that. But for me, I just feel like they have a manager who has really held them back, but now he feels like he needs to unleash them because I think it's time.

Arteta said last year, with Warnieri in particular, he's giving us all the reasons to play, another reason to put him in there. But I am responsible to build a career for him. You have to do that brick by brick. Today he put another brick. Now we have to put cement. I mean, it's good knowledge of bricklaying from Arteta here as well,

but also just by me reading this out makes me sound like Alan Partridge. But anyhow, today he put another brick. Now we have to put cement. Make sure it doesn't get dry so we can put another one, and that will stick and then we put one more layer and one more layer but if you want to put five in a row believe me it won't work we have to manage not only his expectation but his workload as well which is really important you can sense how much the crowd loves watching the kid play and the energy which is the perfect insight then isn't it Chris into how he did

manage him yeah I mean I mean it is interesting but it's about earning the right and then it's about feel uh as much as anything uh isn't it and I don't know but and Theo would know better than me this but it seems to me like that Lewis Skelly, he has now manoeuvred his way into a position ahead of Calafiori, ahead of Zinchenko, ahead of Tierney, and he is the number one in that position where Wanyeri is a little bit different.

And, you know, I'm told that Wanyeri's best position is where Odegaard plays, albeit he's a really talented player wherever he plays in behind. So it looks like he may have to be a little bit more patient, but it's as Mikel Arteta sees that as much as anything. When you're a young player, I do think that you want it all. You want to be playing every game, every week. You want to be picked all the time.

And there are elements where I think physically, you know, you spoke about it, that managers will hold young players back at times for their own benefit. But, I mean, they're two players. Their confidence is at an all-time high. But the other thing in there, and Theo talks about the Invincibles dressing room,

but the other thing, Chris, and you will have the Invincibles dressing room, but the other thing, Chris, and you will have been in these dressing rooms, is they can be intimidating for younger players. I was talking to someone today and they were talking about their team and saying that they had to have a chat with some of the senior players there because some of the younger players,

and we're talking younger, younger, you know, in their teens, felt that it could be an intimidating environment. So it's on the Erdogans or Declan Rice or, you know, whoever it may be in that team to create the environment that allows the young ones to flourish, isn't it? You must have known. You as a senior player did that, did you?

Yeah, absolutely, Mark. Policing the dressing room is really important. And you're speaking for, what are you smiling for? Odegaard and Declan Price, good types. I mean, when I was younger, my mindset was, and I didn't walk into an invincible dressing room, but Norwich City weren't bad back in the day, Theo, was you have to earn the respect through what you do on the training ground as much as anything.

And you earn the respect through performance, and then that grows. But in terms of the dressing room mentality, you have to grow a thick skin. And I just became unbearable, realized that it would be good to become unbearable like everybody else. But, you know, I think that that certainly was part of it when I was younger. That thick skin, all joking aside, I think was really, really important

because football training grounds and dressing rooms they're you know they are they well they were the games changed but they were a really tough environment and you have to you have to learn how to handle yourself and stand up for yourself i think i think that's an element that so from the outside someone who has never been in a in a changing room in that you room as part of it, but is aware of what they're like in a way that maybe people who don't spend a lot of time with footballers are not. They're brutal, and I think

that's still true. I think they are still really cutthroat environments compared to what anybody else would experience. I mean, chappers, the media's not always the friendliest environment, is it? But compared to football, it's nothing. No, but actually Danny Murphy made a point last night when we were talking about Lewis Skelly's celebration

and you agreed there, didn't you, that 15 years ago, if you'd have done that, that would have been stored up for the next time that the two played and in Danny's words, Theo, you'd be on the end of a reducer inside the first two minutes

and you made the point, not only the next time that they played, but they might be phoning ex-players who'd moved on to different clubs to say, by the way, could you do a reducer in the next fixture? Yes? I did say that, yeah, because players do remember these moments. And I'm sure it'll be an interesting game, obviously, when City play again Arsenal I think it's

obviously but he's great it's great for us. of a reducer is he? No I don't think so I think the great thing is he doesn't shy away from it

though that's the truth now I think he he's going to accept that and this is I think he's ready for it he's got that arrogance but as well I love the fact

that the guys Ethan and Miles are smiling and having a good time after because it's every fan's dream that those guys are living. I've lived it as well, but you can still see there's that kid in them still.

They're still kids. You know, people always say about, oh, they're young and they're kids, but they're like, when we talk about some players, but these guys are 24. These guys are actually kids.

They're 18. They're teenagers. And I think we need to get away from the sense of young players. These are young players. The guys in the mid-20s, they ain't young players. They're more experienced players. I like using that phrase because that is the real truth.

But for me, I think it's just quite refreshing to see. And I think it's one of those, Mikel, you know, everything that's going on with obviously bigger clubs in Europe, etc I need to hold on to these guys because particularly the English talent we don't want to see it moving on obviously like Jude's obviously gone off but these guys need to stay in this Premier League But it's testament as well

to the environment that Arteta's created I think that his record with young players is maybe underestimated if you think about how long he's worked with Saka, the improvement that we've seen in Saka. Odegaard was young, even by Theo's definition, when he arrived at Arsenal and Arteta has helped improve him enormously. Saliba as well. These all started out as young players in Arsenal's team. And I think that Arteta deserves a lot

of credit for nurturing young talent. He's got a proven track record of being able to do that. And to be honest, the entire club kind of deserve credit for creating a space in which they can come through. You know, they have this amazing natural resource at Hale End at the Academy, because London is a place that produces a lot of footballers. And we've seen that at Palace, we've seen it at West Ham at times,

we've seen it at Chelsea. What Arsenal have done more than, almost more than anybody else is they've created space for them to come through. That final bit of that pathway has always been

the thing that clubs struggle with. And at Arsenal I think they talk a lot about oxygen for the young talent because you can be incredible in an academy and then if you

find your pathway blocked when you are ready for the first team then that talent will not flourish. It won't be fulfilled. Arsenal have been really good at allowing those players to find their way

into the first team. With another one on the way, isn't there? There's another one on the way that is special by all accounts. Yeah, there's a slight sort of nervousness around Arsenal, the thing about naming him, because the thing is that I think he's only just 15, that he's too young to play in the Premier League.

There is a point at which, no matter how good you are, you're too young to play in the Premier League. And anything can happen at that, you know, between 15 and 18. He was 15 on New Year's Eve. What do you mean he's too young to play in the Premier League? There are rules. He can't. He was 15 on New Year's Eve. To play in the Premier League,

he needed to be 15 by August the 31st of last year. He has, I think, trained with the first team at times. Arteta's spoken publicly about him. Arsenal are reticent to put too much pressure on him because all it takes is one injury and everything is derailed. That's the reality of football, or everything's potentially derailed. But the fact that they keep allowing these players to develop into a position where

they could be in the first team for a club that is not undergoing some sort of crisis, that is not in a transition, is quite rare. It takes a lot of skill and also impacts your transfer policy. There will be Arsenal fans who are annoyed that they have not signed a player in this window who will feel that that is a lack of ambition from the club. That is related to letting young players have chances. If you keep sort of stuffing the first team full of players that you've brought in for short-term gain, then you can have the best academy in the world.

It won't do anything for you. And Arsenal have kind of put all those pieces together. Arsenal, just a final thing on this, Chris, and Statman Dave put this out. Arsenal are unbeaten in 17 games against the so-called Big six in the Premier League. Now, you can debate how difficult it is to remain unbeaten against some of those big six at the moment over recent years,

but bear in mind they still have the biggest atmosphere and the most tension on them. That's some consistency, isn't it? Yes, I wasn't aware of that. It's a good stat from Dave for once. But it is. As much as Arsenal deserve the praise, and that record is incredible, I think Arsenal fans, Arteta has been there a while now, hasn't he?

And other than the FA Cup, they do want to see a bit more silverware. They want to see a Premier League title. So I think Rory touched on it. For Arteza to nurture young players and for these players to get into the team on merit now, that's a big deal, really. A really big deal for the two young players. Okay, we will move on.

At what age did you stop being unbearable? Well, that's a really good question, actually. Yeah, maybe do a poll on that. Okay, I think we can do those kind of things, actually. I think this may break all polls that we've done in recent weeks on the BBC Sport YouTube channel. But at what age did Chris...

Do you want to give two or three different ages or should we just get people to vote? Do it by decade. Alright. It is 30s, 40s or 50s. Can I quickly say something, going back to Roy, about the, obviously, players that could have been protected. I remember when

I moved to Arsenal, there was a period of time from January, because I moved from Southampton in January, but I was only 16, where it was more of a handshake agreement. They were terrified. They had to wait until I could sign professionally in March. I could have left at any point during that January,

February until my birthday, the 16th of March. And I think that's what you're alluding to there, quite scared. But look, I was open and honest of, no, I'm with my hero, I 16th of March. And I think that's what you're alluding to there, quite scared. But look, I was open and honest. No, I'm with my hero, I'm with my team, I'm not going anywhere. But they really didn't want me to, you know, go. I didn't play either.

So I was around the place, but didn't play. So it was an interesting moment because, yeah, I could have walked at any point. And actually, now, I mean, it wasn't that long ago, Theo, but it feels like the biggest clubs are even more vulnerable to losing their talented youngsters now than they were then aren't they oh absolutely because as well and the money now is just absolutely we all know it's it's just yeah it's part of times isn't it here's what It is what it is. The Football Daily Podcast. On BBC Sounds.

Women's Football Weekly. On the Football Daily. I'm Ben Haynes. I'm Ellen White. And I'm Jen Beattie. And on Tuesdays on the Football Daily, we bring you the Women's Football Weekly. As a manager, I'm really proud of my players and the performance they had tonight in the game.

As we dive headfirst into all things WSL and beyond in the women's game. It's very big now, it's very alive, there's a lot of fans and supporters. Women's Football Weekly, only on the Football Daily. Listen now on BBC Sounds. This is the Football Daily Podcast. With Matt Chapman. The BBC Sport YouTube poll have voted that Chris stopped being unbearable in his 50s. 39% of people think of that, which means that's good, Chris,

because that means you're now unbearable. Now you're bearable, sorry, not unbearable. So that's good, isn't it? Well, there you go. Yeah, that's a positive. I would have liked to have been a little bit earlier, but that's fine. Some very positive comments. Grant Cullen, Chris has never been unbearable.

He's just bearable in a unique way. MNC at bbc.co.uk if you want to get in touch. Marcus Rashford at Aston Villa. Good move for the club, good move for the player, good move for the club that have let him go. Chris. Oh, blimey. Well, we'll find out won't we

I think Marcus Rashford has a lot to prove and I wouldn't normally say that about a player who has

a track record like his up until about 18 months ago but I think it's a risk from Aston Villa

Unai Emery clearly thinks that he can get Marcus fully focused again and if he does, I think there's no doubt he's got a good player but it's

all about attitude. The last two Manchester United managers have called Marcus Rashford out and it's a trial period, isn't it? Because it looks like he's going on alone at first and then the possibility of signing in the summer. So Marcus Rashford is on trial.

People said on Saturday, Theo, when we were doing the show, well, Unai Emery won't tolerate him if he's not performing. Eric Ten Haag didn't and Ruben Amrim didn't. So what's the difference? I think sometimes as a player, a change of voice, a change of scenery. We were talking about potentially maybe even getting out of the city and going and

experiencing being on your own and away from distractions and just focusing on the ultimate goal, which is playing, performing at the levels. We all know, we all want to see that smile. I want to see it back as well and see the levels that he has. I can really, really relate to the fact that at times being at a club for such a long time, it's hard to do that step.

But you've got to take that leap because there will be initial reaction. There will be. I just feel it's a tough team because there's a lot of good players in this position you want to play as well. And Miami isn't shy away from putting players out of a period of time Tilleman's had it and Arnaz had it I mean it's just trying to fit him in that system off the left he's going to want to play you put him up front he's going to have to be busy and he doesn't like he doesn't like playing up front I think he's just going to have to accept just playing any position now you're

you're chosen upon because you know you're there at the club to not going to have to accept, just play in any position now you're chosen upon because you're there at the club not just to prove to them that you're good enough, but to prove to everyone now, and yourself, really. That's the ultimate goal. Just prove to yourself that you still actually care because I think that's what it comes down to. Interesting there that Rory Thier used to phrase, be busy.

So the argument would be from a United fan perspective on the field, and if you look at what Ruben Amrim has said about training, put some effort in. Okay? So when we keep being told that Unai Emery can rejuvenate players and rehabilitate players, Marcus Rashford doesn't need his game building up again, does he?

I mean, to put it bluntly, the perception is he just needs to run around. Yeah, and I mean, we talked about this last week, I think, didn't we? That it does seem an extreme thing to do. I saw someone say on one of the social media sites that it's an extreme thing to do to move to a different city as opposed to running around a bit and training for the club that you love and have supported since childhood. That does seem strange, but I think Theo is probably right.

I suspect what Marcus Rashford needs more than anything else is a change of scenery, because he's had plenty of changes of voices. Does Man United keep changing their manager? But he needs to be, I think, somewhere, maybe where there's less of an emotional connection, maybe where he has that sense of independence. Maybe he's got a little something to prove.

And yeah, Chappers, you're right. He doesn't need his game rebuilding, because Marcus Rashford, when he is fully fit and fully engaged and kind of on it is a high quality premier league striker or left-sided attacker um the the difficulty is what was the emotional connection got to do with anything in in terms of do you think do you think at times we look for things which weren't there for Marcus Rashford? Because we did speak about it before, but it's

a basic thing which Marcus Rashford was asked to do. I don't think, Mark, this has anything to do with Unai Emery about him having to get the best out of Marcus Rashford. This is all about Marcus Rashford getting the best out of himself. I would agree with that completely.

I think it's Rashford looking for an environment in which he can thrive again. There's obviously whatever has happened at United, that environment is no longer working for him. To be honest, I think that a lot of the conversation around Rashford is just missing a big chunk. And we talked about this last week as well, but the allegation from Amarim and to an extent turned hard before him is that Rashford's not trying in training.

But what that means, I have no idea. I don't know if that means Marcus Rashford is wandering around like booting the balls off the pitch and sort of sitting in front of the goal, lying down in the goal and saying like, you can't train. I don't know whether it means he's just not running around as hard as the manager would want I there are there are suggestions that you know on that he's his personal life maybe has become a bit of an obstacle for him to overcome or that he's maybe his full focus is not on the game but because all of that is is whisper and innuendo and gossip it's really

hard to know what what we're actually talking about here. Are we talking about a player who's just not quite at the level or are we talking about a player who just isn't really bothered anymore, is clearly in a funk and doesn't care? I think either way, it was very clear that at United that wasn't changing. There was nothing, either the coaches couldn't pull Rashford out of it or Rashford couldn't pull himself out of it or some combination of the two. I think in terms of the emotional connection sometimes it's there's more pressure on you as a homegrown player, you're in

your city, you're surrounded by the people that you've always been surrounded by maybe there comes a point where that's not desperately healthy, maybe you do just need to go somewhere else and look Birmingham isn't a long way away, it's what a decent run, an hour and a half down the M6, maybe two and a half

hours in normal conditions the um it's you know it's it's not as if you use the toll road or not i would also that's true i mean to villa but that last that's that last bit to villa park from manchester is a nightmare um anyway you could probably afford to use that he i just well if villa recovering part of his wages maybe there was maybe that was why it took a while to get through just trying to work out who was paying for the M6 toll. No, I think the change of scenery is what's important for Rashford

because he clearly had the place he was in at United he was not able to kind of be himself in that environment. The hope isn't I agree with you

completely. I don't think it's that Unai Emery's got some sort of magic wand and he can wave it over Rashford and remind him

what he used to be. I think that the gamble that Villa are taking and it's a gamble worth taking, is that if you take Marcus Rashford out of an environment where it has become toxic, you might get the player that he was.

And it might work, it might not. You hit the nail on the head there about saying toxic. And I think as well, going back to what you said about kicking balls and all of that, I know players at times that could hold back the team by being late for certain things. Or if you're always waiting for someone to come to the gym it might be just certain behaviors like that

where you know at times there's no excuse really to be late i'm not saying he's late but i've been in a in a position where players and you're always waiting for them you know that you know they're always the last one to come out or the the last one to come out with a minute left just before training and it becomes a norm and I'm saying now to Marcus Rashford be that first one at training ground be that like I know it's such a clear be that last one when things are going well be in that gym be seen doing the right things because there's loads of eyes around all these clubs these days they always keep an eye on you so I just advise him look even if it it's really hard to do

what's more important right now is to create that environment and to be that there'll be players in that dressing room think I'm playing going to be playing with Marcus Rashford that what that means to him you look at Ramsey and Rodgers thinking one minute they could threat my position here so they're going to be lifted up so for me I think it's going to be a really positive move. I really do. I really think having that English connection there, like you said about Umur Emre improving players, but he is really intense.

And he's had a lot of intense managers. But I think for me, it's a completely different environment which he will thrive in. I really do believe that. I think United as well, they haven't been doing great without him anyway. And even when he was there, he got a few goals and it's always,

I felt Manchester United were, it was more Rashford. It's the problem's Rashford, but no, no, it's still there. It's still the problem, still at United.

So it'd be interesting to see after weeks go by what the issue is now. But I think it's- Well, Theo, it's like you and Rory are half palming that off on, on ten Haag and Emerim, saying Rashford isn't the problem. It's very unusual what both managers have done with Marcus Rashford

in terms of calling him out. It's very unusual. Yeah, that is really fair. With one, you can write it off as, look, there's a personality clash here. Some managers do randomly take against certain players. They just don't like the cut of their jib or whatever. But with two of them, leaving aside the slight asterisk

that maybe Amarim's done it a little bit to assert himself. But generally, yeah, I think Chris is right. It is weird that two managers in succession would be like, this guy is a problem. That's not to say they're complete. I mean, yeah, it is on Marcus Rashford to do that. But at the same time, the manager is there to kind of get the best out of the players

and part of your job is to work out the kind of psychological keys to elicit the best from each member of your squad, each of whom is an individual person who has their own motivations, their own kind of inspirations, all that stuff. So I do think it doesn't reflect particularly well

on Ten Hag and Amarim especially that Amarim's just kind of given up on him straight away, when, as Theo says, it's not like Manchester United are good. But the bulk of the pressure is on Rashford to say, Rashford now has to prove them wrong. That's a terrible cliche, but that's basically what has to happen. Plenty of support for Marcus Rashford on the messages, mnc at bbc.co.uk. In fact, the BBC Sport poll has him being a success at Aston Villa,

62% saying yes, he will be. Richard, I think the move is right for Marcus and the club. I wish him well. I hope he gets his career back on track. Pete, it might revitalise him in the same way the loan spell at West Ham did for Jesse Lingard a few years back. And Gary, Marcus has become an easy crutch for the United managers to put the blame on for poor results.

mnc.bbc.co.uk But from United's point of view, they've now let Rashford go on loan. The last two attackers that they brought in, one of whom is a number nine, and Xerxe, who probably isn't a number nine, are on the bench. They've got a midfielder who did well as a 10 in the Europa League during the week, Chris, starting as a nine.

Do they know what they're doing? Well, I think that Manchester United aren't getting relegated and he may be experimenting. I'll always go back to the formation, which he said he was going to play at the start. He's stuck with that. I don't think that that is Amrim's problem. I think that that is more on Ineos

and the argument is Amrim should adapt and I understand that, but it doesn't look like he is going to adapt. What I do think... Oliver Glasner took over Crystal Palace, played 3-4-3, and eight of their starting 11 yesterday who played in the 3-4-3 were at the club

before he signed. Yep, and you know... So he's coached them into playing 3-4-3? Yep, yep. Without having to completely change the squad? Maybe, you know, different expectations, but I do take your point. Where I think he's got a big problem now is if you're Xerxe or you're Hoyland

and you're thinking, I see Kobe Mayneau, who's a really excellent footballer, but he's not a centre forward, he's not a false nine. How on earth is he playing in front of me? I think that that's a problem. Ruben Amr is basically telling the pair of them he does not rate them in any way shape or form and the other part of that is we are now into the last hours of the uh the transfer window bet your bottom dollar Amber and wants to send a forward in but he could lose these two players mentally for the rest of the season now

where they think I'm not applying myself. I mean, you know, from their point of view, they should apply themselves. But I'm just saying as a human trait to think, well, if he doesn't rate me, I'm going to, you know, I'll down tools for him. For me, I look at it as a bit of a test. Managers love to test players.

I've been tested. I remember having Emmanuel Boué play right wing when he was a fullback ahead of me and I thought, wait a minute. It just got me thinking, I'm obviously doing something not right here to have Emmanuel Boué,

which I loved. He was a very exciting player off the pitch as well, really bubbly, but I ain't having you playing ahead of me. That changed within, not even a week pretty much because I wasn't allowed. So did you go out to prove yourself then, not sulk? I didn't having you playing ahead of me. That changed within, not even a week, pretty much, because I wasn't allowed.

So did you go out to prove yourself then, not sulk? I didn't sulk. I just thought, I ain't going to go and whinge about it. All I can do is look at myself and think, what am I not doing right here? And that's what we're talking about,

Rashford and Hoyland and Xerxe. I'm obviously doing something. Did you get your agent to phone the manager? No, I wasn't one of those. I was one of those players who would go and see the manager, but come out, particularly Arsene, who really good at it coming out of the meeting thinking he

hasn't answered my question but I dare go in again he was one of these managers who was very bright at that but just see him seeing me care about it maybe really just need the kick up the backside you need I think for players and I think at times managed to do is just to get a test out and to see actually are you with me or not and I think it's going to be interesting to see how they do cope

with this but it obviously didn't work but you know for me it worked it gave me a kick at the backside I was back in the team

and then you know the rest is history so I just think it was an interesting dynamic to do particularly if you're so fixed on this formation Gurkarez isn't like Mainu, if that's the player he wants.

So that's the bit I don't get. Yeah, I'm just a bit lost on the decision-making on having a player like that. He has made, he has made, Amarim, in the Premier League since the 23rd of November, Rory, 38 changes to his starting line-up. Only Chelsea and Ipswich have made more. Is he too experimental?

So I think that would be fine if you felt that he was closer to solving the puzzle. If you could say, OK, so what we've learned from these, what, three months that he's been in charge, we know that Ahmad Diallo is going to be the right-sided one, the right-sided win back, say. And we know that, okay, he's not perfect in that role, but Diallo's the left-sided one.

And he likes De Ligt and Martinez in defence. Obviously, Martinez now looks like he's on his ACL, so that's him for the season. But there's a bit of a question mark over the third one. Could be Yoro, could be Maguire. And he's's settled on and I was going to say earlier that the thing with

Manu is a false nine is that Kobi Manu is not a perfect midfielder there's I think there's a belief among other teams that he's a little bit just not quite quick enough to be an absolute sort of dominant presence in midfield but he is an extremely talented midfielder who needs to learn how to be a top class midfielder and you probably do that by playing him in midfield i don't want to reveal any sort of tactical secrets but generally players get better when you play them in a certain position otherwise like theo they kind of do the occasional training session as a as a freestyling central midfielder and no one learns very much well we used to beat them as well that's what always used to happen but it's not just it's not

just damning Hoyland and Xerxe it's kind of wasting Mainu like Amarim should be at the stage now where he's thinking of my central midfield partnership the best I've got at the moment is Mainu and Ugarte which I think it probably is the fact that he's still kind of fiddling around and doesn't seem to be settling on anything, that would worry me more than the fact that he's still experimenting. It's the lack of... You should be experimenting and solving certain problems as you go, whereas if you're just continually experimenting, there's going to come a point where you don't really know what the answer is

because you've forgotten what the question was. And when you're experimenting as well, you're taking away Gannaccio's strengths, you're taking away Abbad's strengths because all of a sudden now they're thinking, right, I'm going to link with, oh wait a minute, it's Kobe Maynard, it's not a big presence. I used to love playing with Giroud and I said this last night,

didn't I chap, it was about having that link player, that player that would get the best out of you. Now you're not just shying away from having a big presence up front, you're taking away two other strengths of your team and now have to adapt their game, which is very unusual because now players find it hard to adapt, particularly the guys like Gennaccio, who's a winger.

He's going to have to play in a 10. He's not that type of player, and he's going to be expected to link with Kovu Meynu. That's my point. I don't know if you saw last night as well, who got man of the match for Real Betis. Did you see that, Rory? Was it Anthony?

Yeah, Anthony got man of the match for Real Betis. I saw a load of highlights of him running the ball out of play, but I presume he played better. But that is worth mentioning. They have let two attacking players go, whatever you think of Anthony, and obviously Rashford wasn't contributing, and they have brought none in,

and I'm pretty sure that's not what they'd have... If they'd said that to Ruben Amorim, look, we're going to weaken your resources by two players in January, but just not bring anybody in at all. I'm pretty sure he'd have not been happy with that. Wolfman just on Chris. He's been a bit more bearable lately,

but I firmly believe he can go back to his unbearable Mardy best. Adrian, leave Chris alone. He's a legend and an integral part of the show. It is about time you lot grew up. Yeah, like I said. I feel as though the show

would lose if we grew up. Yeah, I think the puerility is important. Theo, Chris, Rory, thank you very much. See you all soon. What does it take to go racing in the fastest cars in the world? Oscar Piastri. Your head's trying to get one way, your body's trying to go another.

Lance Stroll. It's very extreme in the sense of how close you're racing wheel to wheel. We've been given unprecedented access to two of the most famous names in Formula 1, McLaren and Aston Martin. I'm Landon Harris, racing driver for McLaren Formula 1 team. They opened the doors to their factories as the 2024 season reached its peak. They work to build a beautiful bit of machinery that I get to then go and have fun in. I'm Josh Hartnett. This is F1 Back at Base. Listen on BBC Sounds.