Football Daily - Monday Night Club: Xhaka reborn & from Bricklayer to Brazil

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Charlie Adam and Rory Smith on the Monday Night Club.After Sunderland's stoppage time equaliser against Arsenal, the panel reflect on captain Granit Xhaka's influence. Is he the signing of the season? Who does he join on a list of the best aging midfielders? And what else is going so right at the Stadium of Light? From selling fruit and laying bricks to waiting for his first national team call-up: South American football expert Tim Vickery joins to chat Brentford's Igor Thiago. Plus, Felix Johnston tells us how he has been headhunted to become a first team scout at Como, having started out with a Chelsea fan account on X.  Timecodes: 1'56 Granit Xhaka: signing of the season? 9'11 Sunderland vs Arsenal 14'32 Aging midfielders 24'06 Igor Thiago chat with Tim Vickery 37'08 Felix Johnston

This is the Monday Nightclub with Mark Chapman on the Football Daily podcast. Welcome to the Monday Nightclub Charlie Adam, Roy Smith and Chris Sutton with us this evening, MNC at BBC.co.com. If you want to get in touch with us, you can listen on BBC sounds, you can watch us on the eye player, and you can also watch us on the BBC Sport YouTube channel as well.

And if you are doing, you will see that, as is customary, beginning of November, the Sutton household have their Christmas tree up and proudly in position over Chris's left shoulder. Yeah, you know, there's nothing to do with me. I don't make the decisions, Mark, anywhere, anywhere where I work or at home, that's my wife's decision to put the decorations up. And yeah, so we've got them up. We've gone early, as we normally do, but, you know, I'm a cheery person. You are. That sort of fits with, you know, fits my personality. And I can't, I do apologise for not recollecting your Christmas trees of years past. But is it always the same tree and the same decoration or do you mix it up?

I can't remember. No, we don't, we're sort of, yeah, we're quite ordinary. It's the same every year. Same tree, same spot. Same films. Same, same Christmas routine, great, isn't it? Big tree, what? Big tree and a big roof, so that's big house.

Yeah, big tree, big house, big roof, yeah. Yes? No, yeah, no, yeah, no, yeah, well, we're okay. If people can't see that, Chris, have you just sort of thrown the lights at it? That was nothing to do with me. That was my wife and my daughter who have done all the decorations. I just lie back on the sette and sort of moan and throw a few points, but nobody listens to me. That doesn't matter.

Okay, all right. Granite Jacques, Sunderland. what did you say signing the player of the season or signing of the season? Man of the year. I think, well, I think it'd be both. Yeah, absolutely.

I think if you, you know, looked at players who have had the biggest influence on their particular teams this season, it would be Jacker at Sunderland, it would be Erling Harland at Manchester City, you know, hard to really split. But for him to go there,

I mean, let's get it right. That was a head scratcher for a lot of people. and had scratcher for me, nothing against Sunderland, but just the level he was at for him to make that his project. And then for him, I mean,

he's always been motivated, but for him to lead as he has led, a brilliant Sunderland team. You know, the recruitment we've talked about many times already this season, the recruitment has been phenomenal. I have to say,

and you know, you can stand me corrected here, I cannot remember an Arsenal team in recent times being bullied by another team the way that Sunderland did at the weekend

and you know I mean it was nothing against Arsenal it was really great to see and they are they are brave they're brave in the way that they play I know Lefei gave the ball away when they ended up with with Saka scoring

but you know they are they are superbly organised they carry a threat they defend for the lives and they have Jack who's their driving force in midfield. I think at the end of the game, he ran past Tecklen Rice. In the last couple of minutes, you know, Rice is unbelievable

athlete and you think Jack are at his age. I mean, what a signing, what a player, what a team, I mean, if they finish in the top half, which they look like they've got a strong chance of doing. I mean, that would be some story. Yeah, I was at the

stadium of flight on Saturday evening, and it was an incredible atmosphere. It was Sundland generally felt very hopeful. Why are you there on site? It's not one of your more cosmopolitan trips? Well, it's a good story. Sunderland's a good story. You don't often go where there's a good story.

You often go where it's a nice trip. It's nice. It's warm, yeah. That is generally my principle this time of year. But no, unfortunately, I have to go to Sunderland. It's very easy to get to Sondland. That's what I would say. Nice drive up the A-19.

Saw John Murray. The, yeah, I think it was, as Chris said, it was a case that Sondland, didn't let Arsenal do to them what Arsenal liked doing to teams that one of the many strengths of this Arsenal side is their ability to kind of physically impose themselves and in the first half in particular

it was really noticeable that Sunland were quite happy for Arsenal to be direct Dan Ballard in particular looked almost delighted to have loads of stuff to head away because it was playing kind of to Sunnland's strengths

Jacques was superb as Chris says the one thing I think the danger is because Jacka draws the eye as the transfer was such a head stretch it was strange to think of him going to Sunderland from a, you know, by Labor Tuesdays and team that a year ago would win the German title that was in the Champions League.

I think it does distract from the fact they signed some really good other players who were of similar stature but maybe not quite as familiar in England. So Nordeaux-Mucheliele came from PSG and Leipzig, you know, he was a regular Champions League player. Luchreau-Gertrude was a regular champion's league player.

was a regular champion's lead player. These are players who should really have been beyond Sunderland's reach. Alderese, the left back, was in La Lida's team of the season last year. They're not famous names in England in the way that Jaka was, because not only obviously Jaka played for Arsenal, but he was quite a high-profile player even within that context because he was headstrong and, you know, one of those players that we talked about a lot.

Sunderland have got four or five players who kind of, have been used to playing in the champions lead. And that is, that's really impressive. How did they do that then, Rory? Because there has been, you know, in the past, we have spoken about players not wanting to play in the north, the northeast, you know, the players want to, you know, go and play in London.

So how do they, how did they do it? I mean, of course, you know, they'd have paid a healthy wage, but other clubs would have paid a healthy wage for these particular players, right? I think it's a mixture of money, which helps. And Sondland obviously have access to the Premier League money, which automatically makes them one of the 20 richest clubs in the world. I think it's really good.

Not so much scouting. I don't think any of them are particularly kind of offbeat. It's not like they've gone and signed someone. There's no can'te in there, really. There's no one they've signed from the French second division who's suddenly shining. They are maybe players that were kind of second or third on lists for other clubs. That might certainly get her either. That probably fits that bill that,

teams further up the food chain might have looked at him but he wouldn't have been first choice. A good manager. Good manager and a clear plan. You know, obviously speaks French and obviously the players that they brought in us from. It doesn't necessarily make you a good manager. No, but what I'm saying is when you bring the

type of people and players that have a French sort of background and one thing I know about the manager is no, some of the staff there is that you know, he come in on his own and sort of assembled a different type of coaching staff together and brought it in. Didn't speak much English

but got better as it went on and then allowed his coaches to coach the team but he's very hands-on and well, very, very driven to be successful. Of course, Granite Jacques has got primarily experience and paying 18 million for him was a high opener.

Big salary, of course, that will definitely help as well. But yeah, you know, when you go to a Sundayland and they sell you the project that, you know, we got some young players that we look to look after and people like Reg and some players that have never played in the Premier League before and you could be part of that.

Siddiqui is like his 20 years of age young player but his energy and his enthusiasm to get after it and chase and Harry I tell you what though Charlie, that energy just as a team they've scored late goals against West Ham

and when I say late goals I'm talking second half stoppage time against West Ham against Brentford against Wolves against Chelsea against Arsenal couple of those games were already done when they got the final goal but three of them weren't. They picked up five extra points from injury time

gold. They are fit and they don't stop going until the end. And ultimately Lafay they signed, is it Lafay? They signed him in the championship who managed to get promoted and then that got done when they got promoted. That became permanent, yeah. So he'd already experienced of the Sunderland crowd and being

in the stadium and being there and working with the man. So everything feels good but my worry now is when the six or seven go to the African nations and what will happen to the team in terms of the players that they have to bring in, are they capable of keeping that continuity and the rhythm and that quality within the club and in the games to win the boys come back?

One of those two, I can't remember which one it was. Chris, did you talk about the physicality? Did you talk about Arsenal being bullied? No, right. I think I did just before Roller. I can remember you doing the show a few years ago, Charlie, and me asking you what you hear when you play Arsenal and at the time you said nothing right

because and that is how Mikhail Artetta has changed this Arsenal side and they are physical and they are dominant and you know they are up for a battle as well when you look at those players but they were rattled a bit by that battle I thought that you know they're sort of

claiming that there may have been a foul in the equalising goal and so on and so forth that physicality from Sunderland to get that equaliser from Brobby was something to behold. I mean, it gave Kelly a terrible goodbye link on match of the day, which she's very pleased with herself about, involved a house party and Mr. Brobby.

But, yeah, I know, honestly. Still on Sunday evening, she was very smug about that. But it was a brilliantly physical goal. Yeah, absolutely. And you have to find different ways. Because are Sunderland going to dominate the ball and are they going to be able to play like Arsenal? No.

So what do they have to do? They have to be competitive. they have to have a good organisation, a good structure which they have. And then they have to have loads of energy and good legs and all over the pitch. And they've done that and again, that moment, you stay in the game. You wait

and try to get that last moment when you can and it popped up well and you know, he did brilliant to finish it. So it's a brilliant result for Sunderland. Mekyll okay, looking back, we'll be disappointing in terms of the way

they lost the goal. But I think in hindsight they would say tough away game we've added another point and we still feel like we're in good form and we're good there going into that national break

Yeah, Artetta said it afterwards Hang on, hang on Atta made the point that there'll be a lot of teams that go to Sunderland and don't win Yeah, yeah I think that's a point earned rather than two points drop

Go back to your point last week about re-evaluing Bournemouth away or Crystal Palace away now Absolutely yeah I think because of the circumstances it naturally felt like two points drop because they were winning 2-1 in the 93rd minute. But in the bigger picture, it's quite a creditable point, to be honest.

Sunderland are really tough. They're in, this is one of those things that people don't really like talking about. There's obviously the lead season is 38 games. You play everybody twice. But playing a team that's in the full flush of form is different to playing than when seven of their players have gone to the African Cup of Nations. So given how Sondland are doing, how Sondland feel the kind of the vibe around Sunderland, the momentum the club have, it's a good point for us.

You're laughing and shaking your head, Chris. Are you still thinking about Mr. Brobby? No, I just thinking about you saying as a point gained. I mean, that's not what a true sporting person thinks in that situation. I mean, Rory was right. I mean, if you're in the 94th minute, if you're in the 94th minute of a game and you're winning and you conceded a goal, I mean, that's two points dropped.

Absolutely two points dropped. A true, that's not what a, did you really say that's not what a true sporting person, thanks. Granite Jacker, just going back to him but then linking him with some of the other midfielders this season. His numbers are still consistent with his final season at Arsenal,

his title winning season in the Bundesliga and actually some of them have gone up so his chances created, assist, tackles, on average are all higher this season already. So he is thriving. And we ought to say as well He's not 43, he's 33. But he is on four bookings already as well.

Yeah, he is. But that's, you know, swings a roundabout to, Charlie, swings a roundabout. No, I think he's been Magnuson, isn't he? And again, the fitness of these Premier League players now are incredible. Is it, I mean, I know, obviously, midfield is a very difficult position to play and it can be all action. But when you look at Jordan Henderson this season,

when you look at Casamiro this season and some people may be surprised that I put Casamiro in there but United have conceded 15 goals without him on the pitch this season, only five when he's been on the pitch. So he's hugely important. If he's got no legs

but can't get run the pitch and he's buying average. But he's not though at the United are a much worse team without him in Charlie. Exactly. No without him. Yeah, without him. He's a better player without him. Better team without him? Or he's better

in the team, do you think? He's better in the team? No, Manchester United are a better team with Casamero in the team. Yes, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, 100%. But people say he can't get around the pitch, his legs have gone, he's buying average, it's time to get rid of him. Casamero is, poor for Real Madrid, won the Champions League, won every trophy that he's going.

That team was struggling at the time, and now there's a bit of confidence within the group, within what Amaran is trying to do. maybe four years ago or probably even less that Manchester that would never have happened Amaran would never have got the time if it was in a different ownership

or certain managers wouldn't have got that time What I'm saying is if you look at them and he is important to them this season you look at previous midfielders who have flourished into their 30s McAllister, Carrick, Skoles

is it actually a position where you can get better with age from your reading if the game. Yeah, it does because you understand the game mature and the way you go

and you don't go gung-ho and you control the pitch better. Rodray, for example, still relatively young but he sees the game totally different.

Casamiro sees the game really, really good. But the team was struggling and it was just like, right, we need to just try to put the blame on some people. He wasn't playing well. You know,

the team wasn't playing well. similar to what Liverpool at the moment, individuals are not playing well, so the team as a collective are not playing well. But now they've started to get that time and that sort of way that Amaram wants to play. Of course, he's adamant that he won't change. And that's up to him.

You'll die by what he wants to do. But he's been given time. And that's, you know, is that a pat on the back for the Manchester hierarchy? Because they've given them time to think that this is the right thing to do. And they're getting their awards with what they are. either the finish

article absolutely not but they're better than what they were last year can I chuck another another name into that list of old midfielders who were good Idrisaday

at Everton who appears to be completely ageless And he's How old is he Ghana will be 36 37 maybe Yeah

36 He's maybe even Yeah He's older than Casamiro And 36 he is 36 he is 36 and he's still

He's a really central part of that team So why is it then, Rory? Well, I wonder, this is just a theory, chappas. I don't have an actual answer, but I have a theory. And that is that because the lead as a whole has got much more kind of obsessed with age profiles of squads, which naturally means everyone leans younger. People want resell value or they want to invest in players that if you're at the top level,

those kind of big six teams, you want to invest in players who will give you value over a five-year contract or who you might be able to sell onto Rail Madrid. I think teams there's maybe a lack of Nouse sometimes in the Premier League that there is much more kind of youthful exuberance and dynamism and technical ability and all that stuff

but the one thing that has always been kind of a crucial ingredient in teams particularly in winning teams is someone who's a little bit grizzled a little bit more experienced a little bit of a warrior that kind of character is a recognisable thing

that goes back into the ancient history of football when Chris was playing you need a little you need a little bit of that. And I do wonder whether the Premier League in general is the kind of obsession with data and output and yeah, making sure you have seen players as assets rather than as humans.

I wonder if that's something that's not really been factored in. So there is now a real value in having someone who can stand in the middle and organise a midfield. And look, they're all tremendous athletes. So they're not, it's not like they're just sort of sitting on the edge of the centre circle pointing where people should go. But they do have a little bit more. more of that battle-hardened quality

that you really notice when it's missing, I think. That would be my guess. Chris looks skeptical. How many? No, I think that's interesting, but I'm just trying to think, and I can't think quickly enough, how many really youthful

midfields are there in the Premier League? Because I can't, I can't, I mean, Tottenham have Bergval, who's a young player, but I can't think of two men, you know, I think most would be, mid-20s plus, wouldn't they?

And then it's how you how you sort of view experience as such. I mean, Charlie and Mark mentioned Casamiro, you know, he's always been a brilliant player. You can't get around the pitch as well as he could do, of course.

But the way that he reads the game and I think maybe the environment of Manchester United this season has been a little bit different, you know, maybe because of him, but maybe the players around him sense that they feel a bit more organised in the way that they're playing this season.

Jack, Jacker looks to be a complete machine to me in terms of his physicality. Surprise me in many ways. You know, you mentioned Garner game. He's, you know, different level of athlete, isn't he? He gets around the pitch. I have to say, Chris, as well. I feel like I've seen quite a lot of Brentford recently.

Henderson looks like a machiner as well. We talk about, we talk about Jakka, but Henderson does too. it surprised me in the nicest possible way a little bit I mean I wasn't you know have we gotten in Saudi and Iax you know I don't really know but I suppose the way Brentford play as well sort of suits Henderson in the fact that they're more

that they're more sort of a counter attack team and he's the one you know at the base of the midfield pulling the strings and you know clipping long balls in behind but yeah he looks you know really motivated and there's a testament to them and Charlie will tell you It's a testament to players, you know, once they get 30 plus and what have you, and they keep as conditioned as they do, it didn't happen back in the day with the lifestyle Rory did it, stuff like that.

But, you know, it's the modern game, isn't it? I think you're right now and you look at the players finely tuned athletes, how do they look after the cell, how do they prepare for a game, how they, the nutrition, you know, they're not having nights out now, I think maybe if it's in international break they might have the odd beer and that but the dedication of the players because of the

Premier League, not even the Premier League lads even in League 2 and League 1 the nutrition that these boys are looking after how they're putting themselves in the shape that they are it's incredible so I think once you realise, you know back in the day we talk about back in the day you know you might have a couple of players overweight in League 1 and League 2

you don't see that now because they realise what what opportunity. The finances in the game in the lower leagues of the pyramid, it's still massive. It's a very good earning. And as you climb up the ladder, of course, the technical ability takes over

and the mentality is huge. But how your Henderson's and Jackie and people that look after themselves, the recovery is important. You know, sometimes they might have the secondary recovery to go to train on a Tuesday, so they might not train on a Sunday and not train Monday, but do recovery ready to train the Tuesday to then

prepare for the week. So there's all different types of how players with experience prepare. I worked with a young last year for four or five months and he was incredible. You know, it was the way he trained. There is nothing. I've worked with him yesterday and there is nothing on it. You know.

Like the way he prepares, the mentality to go again, be disappointed that when he plays and then he gets left out the following week, his attitude to train is unbelievable and then to go, do you know what? I'm speaking to a lot of him about there was a possibility he might hang his boots up, but do you know

he went, do you know, I want to go again. So to go to EBSwich, again, it shows the love for the game as well and these boys that are playing regular that are, you know, past that 30-30 mark, fair play to him. Honestly, standing next to him yesterday, I looked like I'd eaten him.

I was that big compared to him. Charlie, do you think there's an element of, there must be certain players who've had sort of not lost years and years to injury or not suffered major injuries, that must help if you, if you weren't. want to go on into your

mid to late 30s yeah but I think his players that are able to adapt as well is that the thing that means

that someone like Jacques can that he can he's kind of being able to change his game so that it suits

being an old an older statesman yeah and again has he changed this game has he not I don't I think he's not

quite as dynamics maybe the wrong word he's not quite as kind of up and he was at time

but that becomes maturity and that becomes with experiences and going to Germany and learning from Shabby Alonzo and a different culture and understanding

what it is. They then come back into a group that the manager's going to rely on and be a big part of what goes on. You take a lot of pride in that captain say and being a leader and everybody looks up to him. The younger players will be looking up to him on a daily basis. So again it's not just about how he plays, it's how he recovers,

how he eats, sleeps. The younger players will be looking up to these senior players to see what little extras that he's getting out of his game and what he could do for them to copy and that's that's what, as a manager, that's what you want your top players and your leaders to do is how can we take a little bit of extra and give it to the younger players and they can learn from their experiences? Five Live Sports The Rugby Union Autumn International.

Unbelievable scenes are shell-shocked Twickenham. Elite clash in a bid to close out the year in style. Oh, what a try! Keep up to date with all the insight and analysis with the Rugby Union weekly podcast. The Rugby Union Autumn Internationals. It doesn't stop. Listen with the BBC Sounds app. This is the Monday nightclub with Mark Chapman.

On the Football Daily podcast. Rory Smith, Chris Sutton, Charlie Adam. on the Monday nightclub. Let's move on to talking about Iga Tiago next. Second top scorer in the Premier League. He's got eight. Only Erling Harland has more. 14.

Let's talk to Tim Vickery, our South American football expert. And we talk about mentality of players, don't we? And Igor Tiago has been through some stuff in his life. And his mentality is taking him to where he is now. Yeah, it's such a typical Brazilian. story, isn't it, where the extra fire in the belly comes from, I don't think he was originally that particularly interested. He had an older brother who was more into football than he was,

but you go and start work as a brickies assistant or packing shelves or giving out flyers for the supermarket. Hang on a minute, this football might not be such a bad luck after all and puts his heart and soul into it, and here he is. And here he is. And here he is. And actually, he had a major knee injury last season as well. So he's had to be patient, Tim. Yes. And recently, it's been kind of one season and out as he's progressed. You know, it was one season in Bulgaria.

It was one season in Belgium? Wasn't one season with Brentford, was it? Because he hardly got on the field in that first season. I wonder how many seasons he's going to spend at Brentford if he carries on in the way that he's playing at the moment. So what is the reaction in Brazil to how he has started this season in a World Cup year when they are desperately searching for a number nine, aren't they? Yes, although there are plenty of candidates suddenly.

So I would have to say the reception is somewhat muted. Really? Yes, yes. It's tough to get into the Brazil's set. set up without really having done something in Brazil. And his path, and he played for Cruzeiro, and that's a big club, but he played for them when they were in the second division. So he's only played second division in Brazil, which is known as the Seri B.

And he's taken the B train from Seri B to Bulgaria, to Belgium, to Brentford. Now, there is little that the old guard dislike more in Brazil than players getting the national team, playing for what they see as, their impression, not mine, what they see as small clubs in England, by which they mean clubs that are not fighting for titles. I apologise profusely to people of the black country, but wolves have come in for so much stick for Brazilian national team players being called up from their club. So Brentford, if you're trying to get into the Brazil team without having done something massive back home

playing for Brentford, that really is scaling Everest the hard way and suddenly there are plenty of contenders and options for that number nine shirt, most of whom are playing in the Premier League. Tim, I was going to ask, does he has had this really unusual route out of Brazil in that he went to Luda-Rex for, grad which obviously doesn't fit into the B theme

which is that is Bulgaria does Bulgaria, yeah you saved it there but that is the route that the I don't know how you want to phrase it like the journeyman Brazilian players take is to Bulgaria to Eastern Europe to

to kind of the lesser Leeds but maybe the more important teams that might be in the Champions League or the Europa League but because he was so low profile in Brazil does that mean that the general public don't feel any real kinship it. It's not like they've been invested in his journey. Brazil produces

so many players that he kind of must just be another name. Exactly. He's not even a household name in his own home yet. It reminds me a little bit of do you remember Big Wesley? It was at Aston Villa. Yeah. Who, again,

a terrific story, Wesley. And he had half an hour off the bench in a friendly for Brazil and was then rapidly discarded. If you don't have a constituency at home, it is much, much harder. Now, he knows that. So if he can keep this up, don't think he'll want to be, with all due respect to a part of West London, I don't think he'd want to be at Brentford forever. If he wants an international career, he will need to get

to a bigger club, I think. Right. So I tell you what, Charlie has a question, and then I've got a whole list of contenders within the Premier League to be Brazil's centre forward. So I'll read the meet Chow, after Charlie's asked his question, you can tell me whether they're acceptable to the Brazilian public or not. I quite like that. Does it make any difference at Carlo Angelootti and Paul Clement who take a keen eye on the

Premier League? Will that make any difference for him? Yes, it will. That opens the door a little bit. But remember, Ancelotti hasn't got where he is today without being extremely political. I had a chat with Chris

Bryant, who wrote that book with him on Quiet Leadership knows him very, very well. And he asked Ancelotti, what's your job description? What do you do? And Ancelotti's response was fascinating. I make the president happy. There's a very political dimension to Ancelotti. There's no great kudos to be won in picking a relatively unknown player who plays at Brentford.

So it's a possibility. But given the choice to complete a squad, and Ancelotty will look for number nine. And Ancelotti is one of those coaches. He doesn't want his team to have a set identity. He doesn't want that. They're unpredictable. He knows that he needs to have options between games and within games. And one of those options has to be a reference number nine.

But to complete the squad, given the choice, there are one or two domestically based candidates who would be more popular, much more popular, than Eagle Chiago. I say, even with Paul Clement and Ancelotty Ego Chago at the moment is scaling Everest the hard way. Go on Mark.

Right then. Get it off your chest. Who would the couple domestically then, who are acceptable? The big one is injured at the moment. That's all great start. Otherwise, he would be here. He's Pedro Flamingo. They took him to the last World Cup. He's a prolific goal

scorer. He's a wonderful finisher, but he's not particularly slow, but he's not particularly quick and he's not particularly strong. And even his coach, Felipe Luis, you know, the former Chelsea, Athletic and Madrid left back, sometimes treats him as a luxury player. But he would be, because he plays for Flamengo, he would be the people's choice. There's another one who didn't quite come off in Italy, but it's still got time, called Caius Jouajji of Cruzeiro, who was at Juventus and in some smaller clubs.

And there's another one who's just got into the squad who went to Barcelona and didn't come off, was at Lona Bettis. Almeras have brought him back, Vito Huaki, who isn't really an out-and-out centre forward. He's best with space pulling into that left channel and running with the ball. So, and he's in the squad at a moment, but he, and here we get into your list,

he is competing with Juan Pedro of Chelsea and Matthios Cunia of now of Manchester United as that type of striker who can play off the main man. Okay, so just with those two then, Zsao Pedro and Matthias Cunia,

whose international records for Zhao Pedro, No goals in five and Matthias Cunea, one goal in 17. Are they more acceptable to the Brazilian public now they're at Chelsea and Manchester United? Yes, especially after what Jean-Gvon-Pedro did in the Club World Cup, which did absolutely wonders for his profile. Before, when he was being called up at Brighton,

oh, the abuse that got. I do enjoy myself hugely on the Brazilian media saying, what club did Alexis McAllister play when he won the World Cup? But you're not always dealing with logical souls in this one. then rebook you after you made that point? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, right, yeah, yeah. That's what I'm there for, the road less travel by.

Richarlison is presumably fine, is he, because of, I mean, 20 goals in 52, or is he not fine? Well, Ancelotti loves him. Right. Ancelotti, he's doing this in a hurry, Ancelotty. He's had six games so far. Risharleston has played in all of them, two starting and four off the bench. And Risharleston's inclusion this time round.

it was the most controversial inclusion of the entire squad because he hasn't been doing it in recent times and those goals are a while or a while ago for Brazil and he hasn't really been doing it but it's almost like he's hardly got started. Personally, I think he suffered a lot from when Everton we're going to flog him. They let him play 2021.

They let him play the Coppa America and the Olympics. And there's been a succession of injuries as a consequence. And he's hoping this season, I think, that after a proper pre-season that he can pick up enough momentum. But Risharlison's presence in the squad will be unsustainable if he doesn't turn it on in the near future.

Does Brazil as a nation respect Tottenham? As one with the sad duty of supporting that rabble from N17, a little bit. For years, I had to carry around a ticket with the name of the club because they asked me, who do you support? and I'd say the name and it'd just get blank looks so I'd whip out

oh yeah yeah and someone who hadn't heard of it now they have but I suppose the Europa League title did do something but it's unfortunately and this is only a temporary state of affairs obviously it's not seen as quite top draw Right very quickly right

Rory trying to be provocative when it comes to spurs let me just throw last three in very quickly there Gabriel Jesus I know he's injured but presumably that's acceptable ass on Manchester City and also. No, not at all. He scored one goal for Brazil since 2019. Okay. In the last few minutes of a friendly when they were thrashing South Korea. The last time he played, they got beat at home by Argentina, the first ever home defeating World Cup qualification. And he made a very, very unwise statement. He said,

you know what, goal scoring is not my speciality. If you want to play up front for Brazil, that's not a wise declaration to make. Igor Jesus at Nottingham Forest. In the mix. was in the last squad, is not in this squad, but he's certainly in the mix. Evan Nielsen at Borman. No, no. Again,

he's got the B-Train problem. He has to scale the Leveras the hard way. And then the final one in all of this is where is Endric? Endric played with Ancelotti at Real Madrid and made a huge mistake going there. He went to a club that I'm not even sure that Ancelotti was that impressed with having Inbape because it unbalanced a team that was working very, very well.

they certainly didn't need Hendrick. It was just stockpiling and he's got that problem that is a a lot of strikers face when you don't play two up front. What is he? Is he an out and out centre forward?

So he still hasn't defined that he's a very clever young man I'll be interested to see what he's filtered through from his presence alongside all these greats at Real Madrid and he's got a chance at Leon but he's going to have to produce very, very quickly and define himself as a striker in order to get in.

Okay, Chris, you look infuriated by this conversation. No, it's just this Brazilian bingo, isn't it? I mean, it's strange that they'd have a Nottingham Forest player who had struggled all season, but if you play for Brentford or you play for Brighton or you play for Bournemouth, then you're not... The case of Igues-Jezus, he was an unknown when he was in the Arab world, and he was unknown when Botafogo brought him back on a free.

And he just had these magical few months where he won the Brazilian League and South America's Champions League, the Libertadores, and the performance that he put in when they beat Paris Saint-Germain in the Club World Cup was just off the scale.

It was an unbelievable performance. So that's where he stamped his credentials. Tim, why are there so many Edores? Yeah, I suspect it has something to do with success of horror movies, I think, in the early 80s. it is it's very very hard to explain in it it's not really fair to do that to it is it really isn't

thank you very much for joining this Tim Tim Vickery on the Monday nightclub we're going to talk to Felix Johnson who is a first team scout at Como which he's kind of built to over the last five years since starting a Twitter account at the age of 15 to post about all things Chelsea so even in

Felix. Hello. Thank you for having me on. You talk roughly, we've got 10 minutes, so don't take me through every step of the last five years, but kind of go from starting the Twitter account five years ago to getting a call from coma. Yeah, it's been a long journey. It basically started with my friend just messaging me during lockdown, I think it was August 2020, saying, you need to get on Twitter. That's what everyone's talking about football. And I've always been a huge football fan, so I thought, why not? And then growing up in the era that I have, it's all about YouTubers and stuff like that. So I wanted to give the social media side a bit more of a go than maybe my other friends that were on Twitter who were just there for fun.

So I took it kind of seriously, built up a following. And where it really started was when I discovered the Chelsea Academy. So before I was on Twitter, I was a huge Chelsea fan, but very much focused on the first team. And then when I discovered the Academy, I kind of fell in love with watching the Academy games, seeing the young players come through. Frank Lampard was the manager at the time so you know you felt a big affiliation there and it's what I was kind of known for as my niche on Twitter and then kind of you can almost skip four years of just building up you know from academy football part of that is scouting then Chelsea got their new ownership and suddenly their model was all about signing young players so I was staying up until

2 a.m. watching Kendri Pyres at the under 17 World Cup estavall then finding talents on my own and it just kind of built up from there, got a bit of recognition, also from some people in the game, which kind of made scouting a reality to me. Previously to that, it was just truly a passion that I wanted to do. And then I realized maybe I can turn this into something. And then I just kept going, kept posting, started to meet more people, got a job this summer at a Danish club as a consultant, which was really nice for like a first step into the game. And then fortunately this summer, my work got noticed. And yeah, I did an internship. a nine-week internship, and I joined Como.

So the internship was at Como? Yes, yeah. So I was around April. I joined a Danish club called Viola as a scouting consultant. And then I think it was in August or late July, I got reached out to on Twitter by the Director of Recruitment, just saying that he liked what I was tweeting and that he was wanting to do an internship,

trying to find some modern younger scouts to bring into the club. and I was obviously very happy to go along with that and yeah, nine weeks later got the job. So how much Felix are you sort of data-driven? How much are you on trusting your eye? Because that's always the big debate, as you're going to be well aware, within the scouting industry.

And obviously the most successful are a mixture of both. Where's your role defined in all of this? Yeah, it's a mix. I mean, technically my role is purely on the eye. So obviously, as a younger person, I think I find data interesting, but also I know that that's where football is heading and has been heading for a while. So I find it interesting. At the Danish club, the guy I was working with there is very good of data.

So I got exposure there. So the way we would scout is he would look at his algorithm and he'd essentially pass me on players and then we'd look at it from there. So I got a bit of an exposure. And I do work with data myself. I did work with data myself as well at that club, but it's not too in depth. Now, with the Como side, I've got a nice exposure to how much data is used in football, although it's not personally myself.

So the director of recruitment who hired me was the head of data, I believe, at his previous club, Azad Alkmar, and he's a very data-focused guy. And my role essentially is that I get passed down data players and I watch them on the eye and do a report. So I don't work with the data. It's something that I really want to learn. And I've actually had some conversations recently about getting more exposed to that

because it's obviously a key part of the game. But my work more works off data and I'm doing the I part for now. Hi, Jonathan, Charlie here. So is your role in terms of, is it all around Europe or is there a certain part of a country that you, one country you would go and watch players

or is it a mix of everything really? Yeah, it's all encompassing. I think speaking to some people after I got the role, they were asking, is it position specific? Is it region specific? So I can't talk to how it works at other clubs, but it sounds like it might be more divided. But for me, I cover everyone. I look at the players.

They ask me to look at. I mean, personally, just because it's my passion, I'm always looking at players myself and passing on players, getting them checked, you know, how they look on data, whether they've been looked at by other people. But yeah, it's an all-encompassing role, not restricted to any. regional position. The Como, I think, have a deal with

Jamestown, don't they? The, the analytic people behind Brighton and Hart, Como, one of their clients. So you kind of pick, you're getting the names passed to you, and your job is to kind of perform the due diligence, say, right, what does that look like in real life? How many times are you watching specific players

that, in terms of a name comes to you, how much are you seeing them before you feel confident to go back, sorry, to go back to Como and say, but this is kind of, this is my, this is my vibe. Yeah, usually I go for five full games. I mean, that's what we were given on the internship. We were given a player and we were given five full games to watch of the player. And now I'm actually in the job. I usually do five full games. Sometimes when it's an attacker, you can just

look at their touches, for example, on the pitch so that can make it slightly quicker. But generally, you want to watch full game to get all the context. And five is usually enough to base a report on. I think if the player potentially goes further down the process, then you probably look again. Obviously, I've just joined, so I'm not too used to how the process works. But in terms of me writing my initial report, usually five or so games,

depending on how often the players touch the ball in that game. Maybe if they play for a low-possession side and they're not really touching the ball, then I'll need to watch more, just for more evidence. But generally, five-four games does the job. Felix, well done on your journey so far. I mean, do you have any sort of, or who would be your most sort of successful player so far?

Can you tell us that or have you got sort of an exclusive for the Monday Night Club about a player coming through who in years to come will be a world beater? Well, that's a tough question. I mean, well, at the top of my head, the player that always comes to my head for who I think will be brilliant is a guy called Dinah O'Donias, who's a centre-back independent to Devai in Ecuador,

which is the Academy that Moises Cicero came through, Piero and Capier, I believe, came through there as well. I think William Patro is at PSG, Kendri Pied, at Chelsea's now, maybe Joel Ordonez, who's at Clubbrews. So they've had a lot of talents, and he's very, very talented. In terms of my personal shouts,

it's hard to remember all of them. I mean, like, I remember Vitor Rice, who's at Manchester City now, was one of my first ever probably, like, proper scouting moments. I was watching the Under 17 World Cup just purely because I just found it interesting and I found this guy

and then six months later I kept asking people where is he because I liked him so much I thought he should be playing for Palmyras and then he suddenly made his debut and eventually got signed by Manchester City so maybe it's that or maybe it's probably more associated with me

with my Twitter. It would be the academy players at Chelsea so Lewis Hall was probably the first one that I got proper recognition for in terms of noticing early and he broke for it at Chelsea quite earlier now is obviously doing well at Newcastle. Felix, are you still based in Britain?

No, I'm at university still in my final year and I'm at university in Milan. So, yeah, it's only a five-year-o train from Coma, which is pretty ideal. But, yeah, after university, I think I'll go back to London. Yeah, that train journey would cross you more in Britain. And it'd be late. How have you been received by the other scouts?

Because Cuomo is obviously the ownership there is relatively new, extremely wealthy. They are, as James Horncastle, will have said at some point on one of his many broadcast appearances, the richest club in Italy in a technical sense. They are doing things to... Did they pay your train for? I don't think I'll expense five euros, to be honest.

I think it's... I need to put you in touch with John Murray who once claimed $1 for the car park where we were at the master, so, yeah. But they are a kind of future facing club. They're yon and progressive and dynamic. They're trying to do different things, build their kind of place in Italian football in a non-traditional way.

But I'm guessing that there are people within the recruitment department who are a little bit more kind of grizzled than you are. How have you been received? Does it is the sort of thing that people in football are not necessarily positive about? Yeah. I mean, from my end, I joined them technically at the beginning of the month. I went to their game at the weekend. I have not had too much exposure to the scouts directly.

I've not really met anyone apart from who was on my internship. One guy who they also hired off Twitter a few months before me, who I knew quite well. So I can't say specifically, I think they're a very forward-thinking club. Most people who work there will be forward-thinking. They want to get the new talent on the scene. They want to look forwards. my social media post announcing myself to the club

got a lot of traction I couldn't believe how much traction it got and from what I heard it was very positively received in the club so I'd imagine that yeah it's all positive

I don't have anything negative so obviously you've got your university stuff and you're doing the job for camera as well so you're very busy and you've got a lot on your play but if we sent you

bearing in mind your Chelsea connections if we sent you five games of Chris when he was playing for Chelsea Would you be able to do a scouting report for us on him? Depends how much you'll pay me, you know. It's got to be worth my time. Right, I'll park that idea for now, Felix. But well done on trying to commercialise it.

That was congratulations on what you've achieved so far and good luck with it. Keep going. Thank you very much, guys. Cheers. Thank you. I was trying to make money out of you there, Chris. someone had to

yeah yeah no yeah absolutely do you know what fair play to him absolutely admire him I think it's absolutely brilliant you know a young guy who's worked his way 100% but seeing the gap

it's a really good story did Brendan nodded at once Chris was Celtic did he not was there not a fan of Celtic fan done that and he was reporting on other games and he brought him in didn't he and eventually he gave him a full-time job there's a few in Italy

there's people quite high up in the recruitment set up at Milan, funnily enough, who made their name as kind of bloggers and social media people. And they clearly have an eye for a player that the clubs have tapped into because as much as you obviously need former players and people experienced in football in that set up, there's probably an argument that you do need that, I don't know, a different set of eyes, a different perspective.

But also, Rory, without sounding like some patronising old Giffa, there are a lot of really good young people out there who are ford your career on these come? Yeah and it's it's um there's two things one is data one of the unquestionable benefits of data in football has been that it's opened up the ability to work in football

to people who aren't amazing footballers which is really good just people love football and it's great that you get this broader spread of voices and ideas and opinions I remember for the book I wrote on data speaking to a kid in India who was consulting for a team just on the data side of it and he was working in football and he'd been

a football fan all of his life it was amazing an amazing story. The other thing is... The analysis now is massive, so a lot of people now are going into the analysis to become coaches and then ultimately you've got two for the price of one really.

It's not all about... Shameless book name drop. Come on, we've all done it. We've all got to try. It's the world we live in, Chris. I don't have five euro trains from Melanchocomo. I've got to cover costs somehow.

Rory, Charlie, Chris. Thank you very much. That's it for the Monday Night Club. Five Live Sports Go to the end zone touchdown! NFL Touchdown, Philadelphia. Great play design.

I think you just have to go out there and be the best that you can be. We're going to go out there and lay it all in the line. A 12-yard touchdown run. 105 yards on the return. Where speed, power, and skill collide. And the Eagles have beaten the Chiefs convincingly in sports. Super Bowl 59. Five lives for NFL.

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