Football Daily - Remember When… We Went To Italia ’90

Episode Date: May 31, 2026

No World Cup has left us with more iconic images than Italia ‘90. For England fans, it remains the tournament that truly got away, encapsulated by Paul Gascoigne’s tears in the semi-final against West Germany.Rick Edwards is joined by Mark and Andy - two England fans who went to 1990 and never looked back, attending hundreds of England games ever since - and Neal, a Welshman who was swept up with the Tartan Army after arriving in Italy with no money and no plan. Together, they look back on the myths and the realities of the 1990 World Cup.TIMECODES 01:50 - The mythical quality of Italia ‘90 04:00 - Anticipation around England 08:50 - Why this was a unique World Cup on the ground for fans 15:22 - England’s terrible group stage 19:20 - England fans on Sardinia 21:40 - Taking on Belgium and Cameroon 27:10 - England’s famous night in Turin vs West Germany 31:10 - Andy’s journey to the World Cup final 34:02 - The enduring legacy of Italia 90 40:50 - What changed from USA ‘94

Hello and welcome to Remember When, the show that brings together football fans to talk about the seismic moments that shaped their team's history and had a massive impact on their own lives as well. We're here to talk about the stories, the memories, the moments that unite us as football fans, wherever we're from and whoever we support. I'm Rick Edwards and today we're revisiting what might be England's most legendary tournament in recent memory, Italia 90. The 1990 World Cup finals didn't produce that many classic matches, but there was no denying the drama or the individual skills on show. And for some of those lucky enough to take part, it was going to change their lives. No World Cup has left us with more iconic images. Pavarotti's Nessendorma, Roger Miller, dancing around the corner flag, Toto Scalachi lifting his arms aloft in disbelief, and of course, Paul Gascoigne's tears.

Has actually Gascoigne got a yellow car on now? Oh dear. Oh dear me. He's going to be out of the final if England get there. It was a tournament that saw England back as genuine contend. but it was also a tournament that brought the global football community together, not on social media or in fan parks, but in piazzas and streets all over Italy. So today we're celebrating a golden summer of football and understanding it in the company of three fans who were there, because this is Remember When we went to Italia 90.

Okay, let's introduce the three football fans that are with us today. I'm joined by Neil. Hi, Neil. Hi, Nick. Andy. Hi, Rick. Thanks for having this on. And Mark. Hello, Rick. So I think we'll deal with the sort of the elephant in the room immediately.

We're talking about England at Italia 90. Neil, you're Welsh. Yeah. How did you end up at this tournament and why? I think it was, I mean, I was 20. I was 19 or 20 when I went. And it was just that kind of like, this is the first chance to go to a big tournament, even though we never qualify for anything until everybody knows, like 2016.

And so it was just that moment in time. I was sort of like, you know, young and eager really. And so it was like, look, we can't miss this chance. Let's go and incidentally. Let's go and see it. It captured the imagination of everyone at home as well, Neil. And I wonder why that was, because it wasn't like, there weren't loads of goals in that tournament.

Like it wasn't like an amazing standard of football, but something about it grabbed us. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, just mentioning that you went to Italian 90, makes fellow football enthusiasts, stand up and go, did you? You know, everybody has that resonance with Italia 90. And obviously, I think I'd probably speak for the two boys with us.

Like before that, you didn't know it. And it was such a different experience going to those tournaments at the time. I mean, one of the games we went to, we scored Scotland and play Costa Rica, you bought a ticket off a copper outside. You know what I mean? And so it's just different days. And so it just, as the tournament went on, it's got this luster and this glamour which came around it.

From Roger Mia dancing next to the corner flag. Yeah. You know, to the, I think the Cameroon players came out with roses, to Pavarotti. I mean, BBC got it so spot on with that music that, you know, I could cry whenever I hear that song. I know, it's quite Pavlovian when you hear that. Oh, literally. It takes you back. Literally does.

I mean, I remember having my kids when they were young and it was like, kids get up, go bed, napies, blah, de blah, and then I'd hear that music. And it'd be like, oh, I remember a special place. Yeah. I remember a good time. Yeah, you know, I mean, it took me back. And I think it kind of added, and then you had wielded motion. Yeah, World of Motion went in the order. everything about it.

And then as England progressed, you know, it was probably less so for a Wales fan, but I wasn't against England. As long as I don't win it, that's always my attitude as a Welshman. It would never be the end of it. But otherwise I wish him well.

But, you know, so it just grew and it's one of those things. Yeah, it's just special, isn't it? What was the expectation like before the tournament, would you say, Andy? There was great anticipation going into that tournament. And around about then, I think this was the time

when the nation started to really get behind the World Cup. Previous to this, people sat at home and watched the World Cup on the TV or listened to it on the radio, in fact. But at this World Cup, there were World Cup parties. People were talking about it and going round to the Friends House to watch it. There were much larger groups watching that. People watching it in pubs. So televisions were coming into pubs kind of for the first time.

And there was a real buzz around that. And it was very much this time, for us, it was England. the cross of St George became really predominant so we had the red and white cross and they also had the Union Jacks previous to that it had only been the Union flag that had been taken

and people had worn shirts with and I've still got some of my old ones with the Union flag on it but now it became England and we gained possession of the team and I couldn't wait to get there there were so many little things

that I remember the SO Coins they came out. Can you remember those? You went and got four gallons of petrol and you got a coin. Those had last been in in 1970 and people were buying those and there was just an absolute buzz in the country. What's part of that as well the fact that England had done well and felt aggrieved in the previous World Cup? Do you think, Mark? I think it was because, you know, England's World Cup history, apart from when we won it, has been pretty poor. And I think expectations did suddenly grow. And for me, when we went into 1990, we did have some well-cast players.

So everyone thought we did actually have a chance of progressing, not necessarily getting as far as the final. But I think it was that groundswell of we've got the players, we've got a fantastic manager who got hounded out of the job, sadly. And, you know, I think, as people have said, the expectation in England before you left was growing and growing until they saw the Republic of Ireland game. And then it was a bit of a, felt like a kick in the teeth of how are we going to once again fail.

But I think there was massive expectation for the first time. So was this your first ever England away game then, the first game in Sardinia? It actually was. I got a really good opportunity to go. I was treasurer of Brighton-Hovalbian supporters club and the National Federation of Football Supporters Club put out an appeal for people to steward the England fans for the first two weeks on Sardinia. It's quite a big call for a 21-year-old. It was.

I'll go to look after this lot. I know. My parents were quite worried when I went over. But yeah, so it was, I got the chance to go. I'm not sure whether I'd necessarily would have gone independently but because I had that opportunity it only covered the first three group games

and I did go back because I got the bug. What was it like when you first got to Sardinia? How many fans were there? There were very, very few England fans. We were based on campsites, miles outside the capital. We did feel isolated

and people I know who went independently had real struggles getting the ferries over. It really felt like they didn't want us there And, you know, sort of didn't. No, they didn't. And the reputation we had, you could understand it. But I think as it grew, there was problems, not going to hide from that.

But I think the locals got to appreciate actually that the hardcore of England fans are actually genuine football fans. And we were there to see our country. And so Sardinia is very small. The capital was quite small. And this was a tournament where we had the, I can't remember how long the beer bands were for. It's like 24 hours before and so many hours after a game. So it actually became a game of could you hunt down a beer for the first two weeks pregame as well.

So for me it was all new. My first away game, my first away tournament. And I thought they'd always be like that with England getting to semifinals. And how wrong you were? How was Stuart in the fans? It was actually relatively easy because everybody we were there with the small at the time, England Travel Club. The travel club was, I think it had been introduced just before that. But you could actually buy membership to buy tickets.

while you're in Italy. It was really strange. So our main responsibility was making, we was really counting people on the coach and counting people back. The first game, I think we came back with a third of the coach missing. And that just followed it up is that... I'm going to say you didn't do a great job there, Mark. We had a time limit of like two hours post-game.

One job, Mark. Yeah. Two hours post-game, everyone had to be back. And yet, people didn't. And it was impossible to find people. But people made their own way back, but of course, didn't tell you. So you had to make a call. So it was fun in games.

And as you say, being 21 and that sort of responsibility, you kind of, it didn't feel that heavy on your shoulders because we kind of joined in with the whole getting caught up and being at a World Cup. And so similar to this happening, Neil, I guess you're in, in Genoa for the Scotland-Costarica game. Yeah, we landed, we jumped. I can't even remember where we landed.

Somewhere in France. And on the way down, we went through Marseille, and England fans were in Massain, and lots of trouble had kicked off in Marseille. So it was already in the air, that kind of thing. So anyway, we went across and we just tried to go to, we had no plan, no money, nothing. And it was just like, where can we go? What can we do?

And we got to Turin and we went to see Brazil play Sweden at the new Stadio de Alp. Juventis had just had that built. And it was just all like that. It was very, very ad hoc, you know, so we were like, and then that night we had nowhere to stay. This is a true story. And we had a Welsh flag with us, and we were going around all these hotels trying to get a place to stay. Like literally, it was like full, full, like really, really late at night, really, really tired from walking. And we went at this hotel and on the desk, like this desk in front of us was a massive big royal standard of Scotland flag.

And all these Scottish boys. And they saw our Welsh flag. And we went, you know, and they went, oh, pick a room, boys. And they'd taken over the hotel. So we literally just pick a room. I don't know where the person it was who owned the hotel was or anything. And so we stayed with them and then we started going with them

to go and see Scotland play so the next game was Scotland, Costa Rica in January. So we were like, okay. And there was a lot of Scotland fans. Oh man, it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. The Totten Army were out in force. They were out in force.

And they were superb. What a force in nature they were. I always remember we'd got to January when we were laying down in a park laying it like like that, but all tired and soporific. And you heard this noise come in and then you heard like the bagpipes

and almost like the marching of this ancient army and they were in a row like all the people, all the bands do it now, you know, from abroad. And when they come to Britain, they all get together and walk in a big, massive line. No one did it back then, but the Scots did. And so we just saw them coming on the street in January

and just were like, literally gobsmacked. It's like, wow, how good is this? And joined them. And like I said, we got a ticket off a policeman outside when the Carbon area, wherever it is, you know, had a ticket and let us get into that game. We saw them lose 1-0. But, yeah, it was an amazing experience.

Yeah, that kind of ad hoc approach doesn't really cut it. anymore, does it? Yeah, you need a plan and you need money. Yeah. Without the money, you couldn't. I mean, it's hard to explain to people. Literally, that stadium was half full because it was Scotland and Costa Rica. Yeah.

So it was loads of Scots in both ends and the Italians weren't kind of interested. And so, you know, we just happened to get into it. But, you know, it was an amazing thing. I feel like FIFA talks a lot these days about the football family. But Italia 90, and I think really, really. cemented that as an idea and actually listened to Neil there talking about the Scotland fans and the kind of sense of community like there was

stories about Scotland fans partying with all the Brazil fans in Turin like that kind of stuff was happening at this tournament wasn't it? Oh it certainly was I've been to nine World Cups now and you meet the same people and the more that you go to the bigger that your own personal

family grows so it's a great experience when you travel away. Remembered in In 1982, I was contacted by a professor from the USA. We became firm friends for life. So back in those days, it was all by letter. So we were basically pen pals. That is awesome.

But he would come over to Europe occasionally, come to the UK, and we'd meet up and they'd take me and my partner out, go and have lunch on him, which was great because we can afford it. But in the USA, when I'm going over, there. I'm fully intending on meeting up with Danny from Columbia, the twins from Mexico. We've got Stavros from Greece is over there.

Lewis from Seattle. So I've got lots of friends which I know around the world through that, as you say, this community. Yeah, you say you've been to nine World Cup, it is probably worth saying that you are like the World Cup guy. I know this is audio, but people would recognise your face.

You're like, that guy is at every England game and the camera always finds it. Yeah, if you Google that World Cup guy, come up now. It's strange. It's a good title. It's the first thing I said to him when I came in, I said, I'll recognize you. Yeah. I mean, everyone does. Every football banner thing does. When you came back home, Neil, did you find it hard to explain to people what it was like out there? Yeah, I think that's a good point. I mean, I'm still a little bit like Andy saying there on a lesser scale, I'm sure, but people in Newport, I haven't seen for years. I just say, if you mentioned

the book, oh, they go, yeah, you went to Italian idea with Griffithill, didn't you? You know, it was like we were the only two people I know of, I don't know even in South Wales, but definitely from Newport had gone there. And yet, coming home, it was a funny experience because it was so, like I said, we had so many adventures there. It was so exotic. It was so full of excitement. And everybody, when we landed, even back in Wales, they've gone a bit world-cut crazy.

Yeah. You know, you could feel the buzz in the country. And so to come back, we were almost like lauded Hollywood stars to be like, yeah, they are coming back. well it was a lot. And yeah, it just swept the nation. I think it really did sweet the nation. And it was hard to say to them, you know, how to pass on how well, they could see that we were massively excited by it. Things were very isolated back then, weren't there? There were no mobile phones.

Yeah. There was no internet. It was just before the internet was out there. So like you were saying about trying to find accommodation, nobody booked in advance because you couldn't. The only way to do it really was if you managed to find a guide. book and then you telephone, but an international phone call cost so much, that he didn't bother doing that. So you could you do it on CFax? Maybe was that possible?

I think in CFACs you could book a package trip. Sea Fax holidays, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good times. You missed the page and then you got away a long time for a chance again. I also, I think it sort of shows you our memory works. I've told people for years that I was when Ronaldo made his debut or he was on the subbench but didn't come on, that Sweden-Brazil game. but he wasn't even at the tournament. But in my mind, it was like...

No, that was 94, wasn't it? Yeah, but I don't mean, in my mind, I'd literally told people I'd dined out on, yeah, and he never came on the pitch. He was on the subsbed. And I honestly thought it was. He was 12. Yeah, so I just think it shows you how, like,

being wrapped up in something as well, being so excited about it. And your memory plays tricks, don't it? Yeah, but in quite a nice way, I think. A lot of people forget that England's really struggled in those group stages, Mark. So it was a one-all with a, with Ireland, nil-nil with the Netherlands,

and then ground out of 1-0 against Egypt in that last game. And I don't know if at that point people thought England were going to be going to be able to go deep into that tournament. I think that we forgot that if you look back in hindsight, the group stages for England were terrible. Yeah. The Netherlands, we changed shape, and I think it was it.

Mark Wright at Centreback, England went to a completely different formation, never played it before. I remember, obviously my first away game, Republic of Ireland game was terrible. There was a huge thunderstorm and everyone was watching the lightning out of the back because the game was so dire. And I think no one was sure

because three teams went through from that group and the England, Egypt result was the only positive result in all the group games. And I think really people didn't know what to make of it. We didn't play well, particularly well. The Netherlands, we played a different formation. We did play well. Scraped a 1-0 win against it.

Egypt. And then I think it was back onto the mainland and no one knew what to expect. It became almost like a completely different tournament. It was so good to get away from the isolation of being on Sardinia.

It just felt like a new tournament and a new England once we got to the knockout stages. Yeah, because England were effectively quarantined on Sardinia is kind of what it felt like. I can't really remember, Andy, from watching at home, whether everyone was excited by Gaza

at that point, during the group stages, were, or was that later on? I think Gaza was, yeah, he was somebody that everybody was excited about. I think we had that spine in the team, didn't we? We had Shilton in goal, Butchering, Centre of Defence, Gasser and Gary Lineker up front. They were all household names. If you didn't like football, you knew those four. And were the team based around them, you know, we thought we should be doing well.

But as Mark said, the group stage was pretty dire. Every game in that group, not just ours. Yeah, awful. Were the fan base disappointed in Sardinia with what they were seeing? I think once we qualified, no, because we knew we were going to stay out there. But as you say, the fan base was fairly small. I really can't recall, but there's probably no more than probably 3, 4,000 England fans out there for the three group stages. And it had become that little bit of attrition because we were isolated.

We weren't made very welcome by the police, as I say, because of the reputation of England. So it was all about results. And I say the first game against Republic Violin afterwards, it was just felt like, you know, there wasn't that groundswell of we can win this tournament. It was, that sort of grew as a tournament went along and the fan base grew as we got to the mainland. So it was, we were treated like the lepers of that tournament.

And I think once we got off onto the mainland, it all switched. And then it felt like everybody was behind us. And again, because there was no internet, we didn't know what was happening at home. obviously made various phone calls to people. I remember phoning my parents up to tell them saying, can they telephone my work? Because I was not coming back was the first one.

But yeah, we didn't really know what was going on back at home, how big the World Cup had become and how the groundswell behind the team had grown as the tournament grew on. Welcome to the Wade, really sure. We're joined by Wayne. We're joined by the actor James Nelson Jones. That's not. That's true.

We've got to get you in season 3. You've got to do it. This is the first interview I've ever done. Very nice to be here with you. I played against you. I got the shirt of you, but you don't know it. I ask Juan to get it for me. Paddy, thank you so much for being with this today.

A norman won't win the bells. That's in my destiny. It was just, that wasn't my time. The Wayne Rooney Show. Watch your night player. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Football Daily podcast from Five Life Sports. Did you make it?

to Sardinia? Was that ever called a plan? No, no. I think I've always said to people who ask about it, it was like, it was almost like a whisper on the wind. You know, every, you could almost feel it in the end. People who were like,

England are coming. England are coming or the England fans are coming. You know, people were tangibly nervous about it. And hearing that, you know, Mark's saying about them being lepers, rings true to me because that's how it was there. You know, we were in amongst it, with like the Scots and the Brazils

and the Costa Ricans and the Italians and whoever you came across. And it was like, England are coming. and it was bad vibes. I'm not saying that England deserve, I'm just saying that's what the atmosphere was at the time. Certainly the perception. You could feel it in the air,

literally like saying, why are they going to qualify? They're coming onto the mainland. Like this foreign invasion are coming. You know, it did feel like that. Yeah, I think it reflects a difference because you were saying the Scotland fans marched to the grounds

and that felt really good. England tried to replicate that in one game and it just turned up to everyone being battered by the Italian police and it turned into an absolute disaster. Yeah. So I think that experience, you know, the fan experience for England was,

I think it brought all the England fans that were out there together. Before the Netherlands game. It's a Netherlands game, yeah. And I think that brought the England fans together, but it still felt like that we weren't welcome. And I think from what you were explaining, how the Scotland fans were completely different. And I think that still happens to a certain degree these days.

There's certainly out in Germany, the Italian, obviously there were thousands of Scotland fans out there, but again, they seemed to be much more welcome than we were. And I think that's just the culture of Scotland fans are saying as the party team and England fans are seen as that. I think it's true. I mean, to be honestly, back then Wales, you know, we never went to any tournaments. But I went away with Wales or at home with Wales. There was a lot more trouble.

It was a lot more feeling of that kind of like violence in the air. The Scots was just like a breath of fresh air to me. It literally was like, wow, this exists. You're from Britain and it's just like a party with like no agro. Given all of that, were you still raring to get out there, Andy? No, I was raring to get out there. Yeah, I got out there for the quarterfinals, which is fantastic.

So we'd just beaten Belgium. Yes, David Platt. David Platt's goal, one of the greatest England moments of all time. Were you there for that, Mark? I was, that's still in my top three ever. That 119th minute and just a fantastic goal for me. He was just really an up-and-coming player then. He wasn't the main man, but he had such a fantastic tournament.

Yeah, and that is one of my highlights ever for watching England. It's also a goal that you can immediately picture very precisely in your head, almost from all of the different camera angles as well. It's that iconic. Yeah, all I remember is we were in the opposite end to most of the England fans, but there was probably about 1,500 England fans where we were, and everybody was on the floor, and everybody was on the floor. And everybody was on the floor, and everybody was on top of an inflatable crocodile. And that's my memory of it. just couldn't believe that we'd actually done it because that looked like penalties

and as we know, I didn't understand penalties in England then. It hadn't started. But at that moment, to do it then, that's when we started to believe we could actually win this World Cup. And so you got out there for the quarterfinals against Cameroon then, Andy. And by that point, England fans were starting to believe. Well, it was Cameroon.

Cameroon were, I mean, they were a phenomenon in that World Cup. Absolutely unbelievable. We didn't really know anything about African football at the time. There weren't African players playing in the UK, and we didn't see any of it. An African team would qualify for the World Cup, but they never did anything. And then this country came along,

and in their first match, they played against Argentina, world champions, and they held on to nil-nil at half time, and then the second half, it looked like it was all over. Cameroon had a player sent off down to 10 men

and then they had the audacity to score and then they looked like they'd blown it when they got a second player off and went down to nine men and ended up beating the world champions 1-0 so that was the introduction and of course the world fell in love with them and then after that Roger Miller was brought in

so the president of the country apparently phoned up Miller and told him to get himself out of retirement get over here we need you 38 year old this is your moment Roger yeah this is you And it was his moment. So he came on, two matches.

One of the group, I think it's Romania and Columbia, both wearing the same sort of kit. And in both matches, he scored two goals after coming on. And they won that and they teed up against England. But even with all of this behind them, looking far more flamboyant, far better quality than England at a time. We didn't really think that they were anything.

And we started off. we went 1-0 up against Cameroon and then they turned it around and went 2-1-up and it was only to Gary Linneka penalty is one very late in normal time that won us the game in the end it was very, very close.

As an 11-year-old I can remember obviously supporting England with my dad but loving Cameroon so much that in that game I had the feeling of I didn't really mind who won, which is odd because I was absolutely wanted England to win, but Cameroon was

so fantastic and Roger Miller was so iconic and so cool. Famous dance with the corner flag. I mean, I imagine you wanted Cameroon to win, Neil. I guess I probably did, but I think the thing is which I find interesting, that all of us here, and I'm sure everybody listening, will know what we're on about when we mentioned those moments.

Yeah. You know, you save dancing around the cornerflare, we can all see it. Yeah. You can see him coming out and giving at the roses. You know, you can see Linneka going like that to the bench and saying about Gaza crime. You know, there is everything through that tournament, which resonates like no other tournament does before or since to me. And maybe I sometimes think it's just nostalgic

because I was a young boy in my first tournament, or was it that special? You know? Well, for me, sorry, when I hit the plaza before the game, and there were the Cameroonians, and it was in the center of Naples, or down by the port, this big, big square. and it was just drums and dancing

and reds green and yellow and they just did and stuff drum beating and then so the England fans and as I said before we're now a lot of people were in the the cross of St George so it's the red and white in there

with Union Jacks as well and we'd got our own dance it was let's all have a disco can you remember that with a waddle and butcher we're all sort of like embarrassing dads aren't we basically

Yeah, a bit for outside. And then mixed in with that were a load of Italians, you know, wanted to be part of it, but too cool for it, wearing their designer shades of smoking non-stop at the side of the square, pizza in hand. Yeah, so it was fantastic. And in the stadium, oh, I really thought we'd blown it. Yeah.

Really thought we'd blown it. As you say, so as memories, everyone remembers Roger Miller. It's just that, you know, even though we knocked them out, we weren't the better team on the day. They were the better team. It was there in discipline with the penalties that got us through. As you say, the experience before that game, I remember, as you say, and being in the squares,

Cameroom fans never experienced anything like it. It was absolutely fantastic. The first taste of mixing, as you say, with the African culture. Never done that before. So then England made it through to the semi-final against West Germany, that famous night in Chirin on July the 4th. And the belief was definitely there by that point. how were your nerves during that game up?

Yeah, the expectation had grown but we just knew West Germany in a semi-final was going to be so tough, but we were still on the high from, you know, coming back with the two penalties against Cameroon, still scoring 119th minute winner by Platt that perhaps we were going to have the luck and we could get through.

So really went into the game thinking we're going to be in a World Cup final, I have to confess that. And it's when we got to the stadium and we were outnumbered massively by the West Germany fans. I think I can't remember they said England probably had about 10,000. It felt like about 40,000

supporting West Germany. But to me it changed there as well because the Italians actually wanted England to win that game. Everyone wanted an Italy-England final or everyone we spoke to all the locals we spoke to. And it's the first time we felt everyone was behind us. So the feelings had changed and it's like we're on the mainland,

we're in a semi-final, the Italians are rooting for us at last. So yeah, I thought we'd win. Feelings when Linneker equalised in the 80th minute, Andy? I was back at home. I was back working. We had a house party. We had about 30 people around. I've never seen such a mess caused beer everywhere, food on the ceiling. It was fantastic.

I had a ticket to the final. I joined the England Supporters Club, which are newly formed you didn't have to be a member to get tickets. It was a voluntary thing and I thought maybe it will get me a ticket and it got me a ticket to the final. So there are I thought I was going. I'd put a 10 pound double on Man United

to win the FA Cup and England to win the World Cup at 144 to 1 and for me that was a huge amount of money that would have paid for the entire trip. So so many great feelings yeah that was that was good. Again I say we had some luck but when you look at the West Germany

how many goal. That was a freak goal again. I think it hit Parker and went spun over Shilton, who at the time probably was one of the best keepers in the world, although not bring into penalties. But no, that again, it's the same as other games we've had last minute millimeters away from scoring the winner

because that would have won the game. Yeah. And then, as you mentioned, Neil, you've got the iconic Gaza crying, Linneker calling to the bench. Oh dear. Oh, dear me. He's going to be out of the final. England.

It's all etched into the memories, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's so above this weight, I think. Like you said, those moments, we can just, you could put them on T-shirts. They're so distilled those moments. You could probably know what game it was from and know what you're referring to.

Yeah, we knew that he'd been suspended, but we also, it's in hindsight and seeing the videos in the, in the, after the games that you see the Linneker do, they're pointing to the Robson on the bench. And I can't remember who did the fans, someone did a fan's diary of the World Cup. So I've watched that many times afterwards

because it sort of relived the memories. And I think, again, it's some of the memories I've got of probably from that rather than from the tournament. You know, Gascoigne had actually turned into the player that could win us the World Cup and then to know he wouldn't be in it. And it was like, oh, but obviously we didn't get there, sadly. Yeah, ultimate heartbreak.

And you've got this final ticket still, Andy. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so. So I made my way to the final. What the final it was. Terrible final, wasn't it? Dreadful. Worse one ever.

Yeah. Worst one ever. So I had this precious ticket and very naively, hardly any foreign travel, really. I flew to Milan to stay with some Italians who I'd met the year before. So Antonio and his family. And I put my well-cut final ticket in my hold luggage. and so I flew to Milan and my ticket didn't my luggage didn't arrive

so Milan Airport at the time was Linata L-I-N and mine went to L-I-S went to Lisbon so my World Cup final ticket was having a holiday in Portugal whilst I was there and we had as we mentioned before know we're internet then so we were phoning up and we got a message that the luggage had been found and it was on its way and it was going to arrive on World Cup final day in Milan.

So, Antonio and his family put together a special operations unit, and we had maps and A to Zs, and we're on the phone, and trying to figure out when this ticket arrived, what was going to be the best way of me to get to the final by driving or by train, which is obviously quicker, but the train station is quite a long way from the ground, flying, very expensive, and you had to get there. And when it arrived, we went forward. a train. His family had the car outside, purring away, waiting. The ticket arrived,

we jumped into it, got to the train station. It's like a film, Andy. Antonio raced to get me a ticket. I raced to the platform with waiting for him. He came back, gave him the ticket and just about made it there. And so when I, when I arrived, I only arrived there about 50 minutes before kickoff and had to make my way to the stadium. It was about four miles away. The taxi driver, I knew exactly what to do. He got his head down, we were on pavements going around,

zipping away. But about two miles from the stadium, he couldn't move, he couldn't just chocker. So I had to run the last two miles. Because I had this VIP England ticket, when I burst into my seat as the German national anthem was playing,

I was dripping with sweat. I've completely misjudged the dress code. They're all in linen suits. And I was pouring in sweat. I sat down directly behind Laurie McMenemy and just to the left of Mervyn Day Leeds United goalkeeper and it took me at least a half

to get any semblance of dignity and what a poor match it was Yeah, a bad a bad match and one of those were as an England fan certainly at the time sort of hoping they both lose Yeah, yeah, yeah, well

I was hoping Argentina lost more Argentina went in there looking for a draw They got to that final and only won two matches in the entire tournament. But this is what I meant at the start. It wasn't a great tournament. I do genuinely believe that. But it still has this amazing sort of status in the law.

To me, that tournament is all about the certain memories you got from certain games, the plat moment, the Gaza yellow card. No, England's scoring two penalties against Cameroon. They're the bits that you remember. And I think you block out the terrible Ireland game, the other games. you block out the bad memories.

And the thing for me that made it all special was the Italians are football crazy. So the atmosphere in Italy was absolutely fantastic. And also, as I said, they desperately wanted an England-Italy final, but they just love seeing football. And the stadiums at that time seemed fantastic. You know, we went to some brilliant grounds,

as you mentioned, the one in the eventors is during, that's sad that I don't know. Not a day anymore. You know, built for the World Cup, absolutely fantastic. Never been in a stadium. like it. And it was the whole thing about the Italian culture. It was just fantastic and it was such a buzz. You, I think I'm right and saying since then, you've been to 260 odd England games.

How much of that dedication was born out of your experience in Italy in 1990, would you say? A hundred percent. It was, I met so many people and I still see people today that I went to met in 1990, which, as you say, it's difficult to make contact with people. We swapped telephone, at home telephone numbers, but I still see people to that day, and I got the England bug, as I call it, and up until recently, it wasn't going away. It was always been there. And I've got so many friends all around the UK and further abroad. And that's all come from following England, and they're, you know, friends for life. And when myself and my wife got married, we had various people from around the country who came to a wedding that we'd met starting from 1990. So yeah, it was

the start of my falling in love with following England home and away. I guess a similar story for you, Andy, nine World Cups, 10th coming up in the US. What is it about travelling to these major tournaments that you love? I love the whole thing.

The football is obviously the pivotal point that's what gets you there, but it's the people, the people that you meet, the food. There's no better way to sort of to meet local people than by sharing food with them. drinks, just the adventures, the chaos.

It's the unpredictability of it all. They're like expeditions. You don't know what's going to happen. You can't plan it beforehand because you don't know what route you're going to be taking through that World Cup. You can plan the group stage and then afterwards you've got to go with the flow.

In fact, Qatar was a little bit different because it was all based in one city. That was good as well, though, because you could go, went to more than one match in a day, which I don't think will ever happen again. No, it was mad. Yeah.

A feast of football. And actually, also the thing that I liked about Qatar was, it was interesting that the vibe like in the souk and stuff with all of the fans mixing and no alcohol was, it was really good. It was different, but it was really good. Yeah, yeah. I really enjoyed it, yeah. I stayed on a cruise ship. As soon as the accommodation came announced, I booked an internal, the cheapest room on the ship and then stayed there for a month. And every other nation was there.

And if they won a match, when they returned to the ship, they were applauded back on. Yeah, that's good. I think the big thing for me, I think for that tournament is how it sort of maybe started a cultural thing, is maybe the birth of stuff we take for granted now. So like music, for instance, that really resonates from them. So, you know, the New Order song and the theme song, you know, like I said before, Nessendorma, like they were huge, the huge, huge parts to what I think made that tournament so special were two songs.

And I think, you know, that's maybe become more normal now. And that was a big thing. It started that movement of where people started to get back into football again. In the 80s, you had to be a nutter like us to be into football. From Italian 90 on, people started going back into football. And I think the songs, for me personally, played a big part in that. Like we said, the tournament was crap. Yeah.

The games were rubbish. You know, if you're an England fan, you would have had the, you know, or being on edge, you know, the 3-2 or wherever it was of Cameroon, apart from that, it was rubbish. but you still think wow what a tournament and so I think culturally was the biggest change. Did you guys feel then that after Italia 90 there was a kind of cultural shift in the England fan base

and the kind of the nature of the fandom? Yeah, I think definitely because obviously the massive reception England got for getting as far as a semi-final. I think football was unfashionable. It wasn't a good place to go to, as Neil mentioned, And it was, you know, you used to go to football games with grounds half empty behind massive, massive fences. And it started the culture change.

There was definitely the feeling that it was good to follow England, being an England supporter. Whereas before, I think people were like, if you followed England, were you racist, were you right wing. It was a kind of association with hooliganism. Hooliganism completely. And I think that 1990 was the start of the shift. that most of us that follow England are good people and I think that that really started for me from 1990 onwards obviously 92 wasn't great again in Sweden

but still the fan base was changing I wonder if you could sort of make the argument that Italia 90 was like the birth of modern football if you like Andy I think the football celebrity was kind of born around then the football became a lot more people part of normal social interaction. Those parties that I mentioned when we watched the football, there were, you know, a lot more women and children came along

and everybody was part of it and everybody was encouraged to be part of that, you know, that football frenzy that was taking over the country. Niels mentioned the music. I mean, as soon as the World Cup started, everyone was belting out Ness and Dormer, even though they didn't know a single word of it at the top of their voice. and world emotion singing along as well it became much more part of a mainstream culture and then I guess moving on from there

it did become more just thinking about your kind of slightly haphazard experience out there Neil it became more corporate you know obviously the next World Cup was in the USA in in 94 and you know you could sort of argue about whether that's a good or a bad bad thing, but 90 didn't feel like a big corporate exercise, I don't think.

Yeah, I think football was still our game in 1990. You know, partially because of the reasons we've touched on, you know, that it was a bit more dangerous, you know, maybe the grounds went so good. I know they got good for Italian 90 or better. You know, it was definitely less corporate. And you could, and it's still like now, I wouldn't dream of going to the USA. You know, I couldn't afford it looking at it. I just couldn't afford it.

And I don't want to go traveling across all those places. I feel like it's priced out for everybody. I just think it'll have a completely different feel in the next World Cup to how it was before. Speaking like someone saying the past is always the best, but trying to places like Brazil with their history in the World Cup, Italy, you know, they're the teams that you associate with the history of football to me and the best teams in the world.

Germany in 2006. Yeah, I just really struggle with, you know, the issues of the World Cup going to America, the ticket prices. And then when I'm hearing the horror stories of accommodation, the transport to the games. It's not our game anymore. We know that. And I think this to me,

just the USA World Cup is about dollars, nothing else. I just don't think it will be there in the year. So I hope I'm wrong and I've got lots of friends going over to it and I hope they have a great time. But to me, it's we have lost the game. And to me, this was the final straw on the World Cups of my loyal following of England, sadly.

Well, Neil, Andy, Mark, thank you so much, really appreciate it. Thank you for reminiscing. And thank you for listening to this episode of the Football Daily. If today's episode of sparks some of your own memories and stories from Italia 90, we'd love to hear them, get in touch with us on our socials at Five Live Sports. And catch us on the next episode of Remember When, where we'll be revisiting Scotland's last World Cup in 1998. Bye for now.

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