Football Daily - Remembering Pelé

Episode Date: December 30, 2022

This is a special episode celebrating the life on and off the pitch of arguably the greatest player ever, Pelé. Aaron Paul is joined by those who played against him, idolized him and interviewed him as they reflect on an incredible career of a true footballing legend. Former England midfielder, Alan Mullery – who played against Pelé in the 1970 World Cup tells Aaron his memories of playing with the great man, not once, not twice, but three times. South American football expert Tim Vickery gives his thoughts from Brazil as the country reacts to the news and we hear from Wales football legend Cliff Jones who faced Pelé in his first World Cup in 1958. Gary Lineker gives his tribute, as does legendary commentator Barry Davies and chief football writer at the Times, Henry Winter - who have both watched Pelé and interviewed him during their careers. Not only that, we hear from the man himself and if he thinks he’s the greatest player of all time… Timecodes: 3’00 – Tim Vickery from Brazil. 8’22 – Cliff Jones on playing against Pelé in the 1958 World Cup. 10’00 – Pelé interview. 13’00 – Clive Toye, general manager of the New York Cosmos. 18’00 – Gary Lineker tribute. 21’00 – Barry Davies reflections. 28’00 – Alan Mullery on playing against Pelé and being his friend. 35’00 – Henry Winter on interviewing Pelé.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Pele! And number three! He played against Brazil in the quarterfinals and we heard of Didi and Barber and Gorincha we knew them but we didn't know about this young kid who was playing his first game against us called Pele! Gallo into Pele and he scored in the very last minute! My first World Cup I was with 17. People say, oh, Pelé, you are very young. How could you play the World Cup? But it was not my responsibility to win the World Cup.

My father used to tell me, The fabulous Rele has brought Buddhism back to its feet. My father used to tell me, God gives you the gift to play football, but if you don't practice, if you don't train, if you don't respect the other players, you're never going to be a good player. That's dangerous. Only left foot standing. Rele!

What a save! Gordon Banks picked that up with a net. And that's the save of the World Cup. Every interview I did, I used to say, listen, I scored 1,208 three goals I scored in my life. The people didn't ask about the goals, but the save of Banks. And it's Pelé, he's got it! my life. The people don't ask about the goals, but the save of banks. I still think without any doubt, the most complete player that I have ever played against would be Pelé has scored and this is what today is all about Look at them, all over him

You can be sure the tears are flowing down his cheeks underneath I think it's very important when you can stop in a good position In the maximum of your career Fortunately I stopped in the top in my career Welcome to a very special Football Daily podcast, which is a tribute to arguably the greatest player ever, Pelé, who has died at the age of 82. He's credited with scoring a world record 1,281 goals

during a 21-year career, which included 77 goals in 92 games for his country, Brazil. Pelé was the only player to win the World Cup three times, lifting the trophy in 1958, 1962 and 1970, but he'd been suffering with kidney and prostate problems in recent years and died due to the failure of multiple organs, a result of the progression of colon cancer. Throughout this episode, we'll hear from those who played against him, idolised him and from the man himself. The former England midfielder Alan Mullery, legendary commentator Barry Davis and Gary Lineker

all give their memories of the great man. But let's start in Brazil, and joining me now is South American football expert Tim Vickery. Tim, sorry to bring you in on such sad circumstances, but we're remembering the life of a legend. We certainly are, yes. He was so far ahead of its time, it's unreal. He's a global icon of the game, before the game of a legend. We certainly are. Yes. He was so far ahead of its time. It's unreal. He's a global icon of the game before the game truly went global. And if we've all just sat and

enjoyed a month of football in Qatar in the World Cup, that habit, creating that as a habit, that is the product more than anyone else. It's the product of Peléle it's someone who was born just 52 years after Brazil abolished slavery who is the undoubted king of the global game Tim it's amazing he played so long ago but even today he's resonated as the greatest to have played the game and people always talk about him no matter how many people have come through and and shone on the world stage it was though the world stage daddy he really showed what he was about on winning three world cups is an incredible feat yeah and uh it's probably true that the world cup although it's so identified with him didn't quite see him at his best i think he was absolutely at the peak of his powers in 1962 when he got injured in the second game of

that tournament and couldn't play any any further part but he would say in the second game of that tournament and couldn't play any further part. But he would say that the greatest game of his career came later that year. It was the game between the champions of South America and the champions of Europe, which was a huge deal at the time. Santos of Brazil against Benfica of Portugal. First leg in Brazil, 3-2 to Santos. Benfica consider themselves the favourites in the second leg.

And Pelé just runs right. He puts Santos 5-0 up against fantastic opponents that they couldn't catch him to kick him. And if you watch it, it's like someone from a different species. He was the most perfect footballing machine I think there's ever been. And if I have to choose one player in the entire history of a game to play for my life, no doubt about it, it's going to be Pelé. I mean, the reaction in Brazil is going to be Pele I mean the reaction in Brazil

is going to be one of such sadness this is still going to come as somewhat of a shock yeah it was something that I think was expected um I was told uh when I went in to do a tv show in Brazil on last Friday that it was a question of hours and in fact, the fact that he survived nearly a week after that, I'm told by medical sources, is proof in itself that he was the athlete of the century. So this was expected. We heard, not official, when he went into hospital on the 29th of November,

that he was no longer responding to chemotherapy. Then it was a state of just making his last few weeks as painless as possible. So the country has had a chance to prepare for this shock. But to explain this to UK listeners, it's off the scale. This is like the passing of Winston Churchill, Lord Nelson, Paul McCartney, Lewis Hamilton and Bobby Charlton all in one. Tim, we know he was very successful on every pitch he took to the record, speak for themselves, but he made that yellow shirt iconic. He did, yes. Remember that until 1950, Brazil wore white. As a nine-year-old kid, Pelé saw his father crying, listening to the radio of the final of the 1950 World Cup

when Uruguay surprised Brazil and beat them 2-1. And Pelé was so shocked by seeing his father crying that he decided he would avenge that. And within 20 years, in the yellow shirt, he had helped Brazil win the competition three times. And that last time, 1970, he's perhaps a little bit past his best. He's bulked up a little bit, but he knows everything. And some of the moves that he produced in that World Cup, not only the goals he scored,

but the goals he laid on, goals that he nearly scored, have lived on in the collective memory. And that was the first one, Mexico 70. on goals that he nearly scored, have lived on in the collective memory. And that was the first one, Mexico 70. It was the first one that was broadcast live around most of the world. And the images from the Mexican sunshine, they had kind of an otherworldly element to them, a little bit like the moon landing a few months earlier. And I think what Pele and his supporting cast did in 1970 is not radically different from the moon landing in terms

of the impact that it had on everyone who saw it at the time in a way it was I think appropriate that his last health crisis took place while the football world was gathered in Qatar his last lucid days I think were following the world Cup because it gave a chance for the world of football to pass a message of love, admiration and respect to Pelé. And he guarded his legacy with great effort, as he should, as he had every right to do. So I think there's something appropriate in that. I think he felt that global love in his last lucid days on this planet. Tim, thank you very much. We are remembering the life

of one of football's icons, FIFA's player of the 20th century, the joint winner of that award. But the question we're asking is, what was it like to come up against a young, hungry, but relatively unknown Pele? Cliff Jones was part of the Wales team

that played at the 1958 World Cup in Sweden. We played against Brazil in the quarterfinals and we'd heard of Didi and Vava and Grinch, and we knew them, but we didn't know about this young kid who was playing his first game against us, called Pele. And I can always remember, he's only only 17 he's picked the ball up in his own half he's run past three forward Welsh defenders

smacked the ball Jack Kelsey tipped it over the bar and we thought well who's this kid who is he and it was Pele nobody'd heard of him

nobody'd heard of him it was his first game ever for Brazil and yeah it was his first game ever for Brazil. And yeah, it was just an amazing experience. I managed to find Pele's goal against Wales this morning on the internet. So I watched the goal and what a brilliant goal it was. A little touch away from Mel Charles, John's brother, and then a little poke into the bottom corner.

At that point, presumably you think, blimey, this is special. This kid is special. Oh, certainly, yes, it was. But really, in many ways, as soon as he touched the ball, who's this kid? We soon found out, and the world of football found out. And I suppose in many ways, you can say it was a bit of a privilege, if you like, to be, beyond on the field of

play, to see the emergence of possibly the greatest player the game's ever seen. That was Five Live's Steve Crossman with Cliff Jones. Let's hear from the man himself. In 2015, he spoke to Gary Richardson. In Brazil, we start to kick ball in the street, you know, with six, seven years old. But when I remember I was involved deeply with the heart in the game, I was nine years old to ten years old. Then Brazil played against Uruguay in the Maracanã, was the final. And then I saw my father on the radio, listened to the game in Maracanã, then Brazil lost.

And my father started the radio, listen to the game in American. And then Brazil lost. And my father started to cry. And I say, Father, don't worry because I'm going to win one World Cup for you. I'm going to play in the future. You know? Then eight years later,

I was in the World Cup. You made your international debut at 17. Brazil won. You scored the only goal. What do you remember about being called up and honoured by your national side to play for them? The first game I did with the national team of Brazil,

I was 16 years old in Maracanã against Argentina. It was a cup and it was the first time I played in Maracanã. I scored one goal. Then, one year later, I was in the World Cup. They called me again in Sweden. It was my first World Cup with the Brazilian team. And you went on to win the World Cup another couple of times. I mean, I suppose it was all getting old at.

Was it? Did you just get the same thrill? No, it was different because this was the opening. It was a big surprise for me, it was a dream because I didn't believe I was there. But then we played 62, 66, I got injured in England, and then 70, this was the most important for me because that time I already announced it would be my last World Cup, win or loss it would be my last World Cup. This was important to me. This World Cup was perfect. What was the best moment of your career? Pick out one thing for us.

I think from 1968 to 1972, these four years I think was my best and in 1970 of course you came up against England and people will always remember you coming up against Gordon Banks and the wonderful save he made until now every interview I did

I used to say listen I score more than 1,000 goals 1,283 goals I scored in my life, in my career. The people don't ask about the goals, but the save of banks. Every place where I go, until now, the people say, oh, the head you did in the World Cup, the save of banks, fantastic save. I say, listen, you didn't remember my goals.

This was fantastic, fantastic moment, you know. I have been with Banks many times. Then I used to tell him about this. It was more important than a goal. But it was fantastic, fantastic. Until now, the people, they talk about this save. Well, it's been terrific to talk to you. Don't be modest on this question.

Do you think you were the greatest footballer? I don't think. I am sure. Until there appeared nobody like Pelé, I am sure. That was Pelé talking to Gary Richardson back in 2015. Pelé's family have released a statement via social media channels

with the most striking photo of the former Brazil striker, and the quote, Inspiration and love mark the journey of King Pelé, who peacefully passed away today. Love, love, and love forever. So Pelé came out of retirement to join the New York Cosmos in 1975, signing a three-year, $2.8 million contract which made him the highest paid athlete in the world at the time. Across three years, he scored 37 goals and got 30 assists, winning the 1976 North American Soccer

League MVP award and leading the team to the 1977 Soc bowl title. Clive Toyt, general manager at the New York Cosmos, spent four years persuading Pelé to join the team. He spoke to the World Service's Sporting Witness program. The first time I met Pelé was in January, February of 71, when Santos were playing against Jamaica in Kingston, Jamaica. I went down to see Pele. He was sitting out by the pool, and I went and sat by him at the pool and talked and talked and talked. At least I talked and talked

and talked about what he could do for soccer in the United States. And he listened. Very pleasant. Thank you very much nice seeing you have a cup of coffee whatever and I left and I heard later he said to some of his friends it was very nice but what was that man talking about why was he talking to me about New York that was the end of. But he knew who I was by then and what I wanted to talk to him about. Can you remember the impression that you came away with from that first meeting? I didn't come away feeling, oh, I've got him. I didn't come away feeling this is hopeless. Over the coming months, over the coming years, I met him in scores of places. And each time, you know, he was showed no ridiculous attitude towards it, but no enthusiasm either. My strategy with Pele was quite simple. It was, we are building our game, your game and my

game. We're building the game in the United States. And you, you are the person who can break through the crust of indifference. You can do it. Nobody else can do it the way you can. So, you are the person who can break through the crust of indifference. You can do it. Nobody else can do it the way you can. So, you know, get on your bike. I knew we were getting close to whatever decision it was. And so did he. And I knew that Juventus were after him and Real Madrid. And I sat down with him in his room in this motor inn in Belgium and said,

OK, if you go there, you can win a championship. If you come with us, you can win a country. And I liked that line then, and I like it now, and he smiled, and he said, OK, yes, I'll come and play in New York. So I got a piece of paper out of the drawer, Jimmy Motor Inn paper, and said, go on, write it down then. So he did.

The impact was absolutely immediate, not just in New York, where we went from, I don't know, 5,000 a game to 28,000 a game. And when we moved from Downing Stadium to Yankee Stadium, went to 40,000 a game to 28,000 a game. And when we moved from Downing Stadium to Yankee Stadium, went to 40,000 a game. And when we moved to Giant Stadium, went to 80,000 a game. But the other great influence was not just in people coming to buy seats, not just in suddenly everybody wanted to televise games. It was in the fact that every Tuesday we used to take the team out to a school and all the schools in that neighbourhood

would close down and would fill this stadium with kids to come and see the Cosmos train. That was the impact that Pelé had on the game, which is still existent today. That may sound like a bit of a strong statement, but in fact it did change the whole thing there you go just to look back on on Pele's career he joined Santos at the age of 15 and turned the small coastal club into one of the most famous names in world football over a

glittering 18 year spell he won every honor in football, as well as two Copa Libertadores, the South American equivalent of the Champions League, and two Intercontinental Cups, the annual tournament held between the best teams in Europe and South America. Tributes are being paid from the world of football, and we'll have more after we hear from Gary Lineker on why Pelé is such a legend in the sport. Well, Pelé is, of course, regarded as a legend,

but he actually is a legend, certainly in football terms. He won three World Cups and was a major figure in doing those, one of the greatest players of all time. Won his first World Cup in 1958 when he was just 17 years old and scored a hat-trick in the semi-final and then two in the final, including one where he flicks it over his head, over a defender and volleys it into the back of the net. So he followed that up with success in 62 and then again in 70, the only player to win three World Cups. So I think it's very easy to explain why he's a legend. He's unquestionably one

of the greatest football players that's ever lived. You have to be a certain age, of course, and I'm one of those people that were lucky enough to see him. My first World Cup, I remember, was 1970, that brilliant Brazilian side that he was the star of. He had a profound effect on my love of football. We don't really have the access to see the amount of footage that we do in the modern game. Even with Maradona, we saw quite a lot more than you would do with Pelé because obviously not so many matches were filmed. So we didn't see quite so much.

And I caught him at the end of his career, but he was still outstanding. But he could do everything. For me, there are the three greats in my lifetime. There's Pele, Maradona and Messi. It's difficult to separate them because they play in totally different eras. But all three of them do things

that other players, other mere mortals of footballers can't do. And I think that's what really lifts them above all the others. Pele's hugely significant in not only the development of footballers can't do. And I think that's what really lifts them above all the others. Pell is hugely significant in not only the development of football, but also in football itself and the enjoyment of football,

which is the most important thing. It's an entertainment business. And he was one of the great entertainers through his pure skill, talent and ability. And he was also a proven goal scorer. In that sense, he was slightly different, perhaps, to someone like Maradona. And even Messi were more creative, possibly.

But Pele was an out-and-out goal scorer. And he's played a huge part in football. The name Pele is just synonymous with football. The arch at Wembley has been lit in Brazil colours to honour the great man. Neymar has posted on Instagram saying, before Pelé, 10 was just the number. Before Pelé, football was just a sport.

He turned football into art, into entertainment. He gave a voice to the poor, to blacks, and visibility to Brazil. He is gone, but his magic remains. Pelé is forever forever so let's now bring the legendary bbc football commentator barry davis who was at that 1970 world cup final um barry thank you for for joining us firstly um your appreciation of pele as a footballing god i can't give you a better line than one my son said to me. He said,

you stand on the shoulder of giants. He was the original giant. And the great names like Messi and so on, many you can mention, that have come on afterwards. It was Perry who started it with such a career, such an ability, such a character, just staggering. I only saw him play live once, and that was in the final. It was the best performance by a team that I've ever seen on a football pitch. He scored the first goal, which people forget about that, but it was such a marvellous performance and he was such a complete part of it. Of course, it was his third success

and they held on to the trophy, Brazil, having won it three times then. Tell us about 1966 and 1970. We know about stars of today and internet sensations and players who have wide followings, but Pelé was arguably football's first superstar. How big a deal was he then, back in 66 and 70? Back in 66 and 70? Back in 66 I regret to say that in the World Cup of 66

in England we didn't see the best of Pele and I personally I only saw him on television rather than as a match because I was the new boy in the camp. I was up in the North East in that competition. He just was quite an extraordinary, extraordinary player. And I'm afraid he was so marked out of the game. And no, I'll be more accurate. He was kicked out of the game in that group with Bulgaria and Hungary and Portugal. We didn't see the best of him,

there's no doubt about that. I'm sure he was very disappointed about it. Didn't speak too well for the other countries in his group. And in Brazil, when he reached his climax, as it were, his presence was there all the time. I mean, he managed to get Gordon Banks to produce the save of the tournament. But he was into everything against Uruguay. He managed to

sell a dummy to a goalkeeper who just went the wrong way and he was an inch the wrong side of the post with his shot. And the finishing goal of that World Cup with so many

touches by players. The final one, Claude O'Addo started it, and then all the star names of that front row, they were all skillful players. Pelé was the last. I can see now

his movement just to the right, just to play perfectly into the path of Carlos Alberto, who hit a rocket into the net. It just was the right way to end it. There was never going to be a right way to end his career. His presence, even though he once let me down with an interview that was fixed up and he didn't arrive uh he was the greatest football i've ever seen and i'm sorry i only saw him once i'm really uh full of uh best

wishes for his his family they've had a real battle in recent times and finally he lost a competition i can't think of many that he lost in his career take us back to 1970 there are so many iconic sporting images i remember seeing the the picture of pele being carried by his santos teammates at the american are there's obviously him celebrating the world cup win but the picture of him and the embrace with Bobby Moore, the late, great Bobby Moore, is one of the iconic sporting photographs because they had such a tussle in that game where Brazil had beaten England.

Yes, they did. And a huge admiration for the abilities of both of them. And it was a very genuine reaction by Pele and Bobby Moore, a very different sort of player. But the respect was huge between the two of them. And actually, Bobby had a

pretty good game against him, I recall. And it's a match that England shouldn't have lost because a certain gentleman missed a sitter right at the end. I won't put his name down there. Take us to Mexico and that final against Italy. What do you remember of the day?

Oh, I remember just being enthralled by it because, you know, I'd been on the team and worked within the Italian group. So I'd had a good run but I I'd never seen a team as good as that and I was just drooling it's probably a good job that the much more experienced commentator Kenneth Orson home was our commentator and David Coleman was the presenter of that championship. And it was just, looking back, I was so lucky to have just been at the final. I was still one of the younger ones

among the commentating fraternity. I've forgiven him years ago for not turning up at an interview that week. But I was obviously very disappointed that I didn't have the opportunity for a one-to-one. Something got mixed up. Barry, thank you very much for your time. The Premier League have released a statement saying we're deeply saddened to hear of the passing of Pele, an extraordinarily gifted footballer who transcended our sport and inspired millions

throughout his remarkable career. Our thoughts and sincere condolences go to Pele's family and friends. So Pele was obviously very famous for all of the goals that he did score, but he was equally famous for one particular time he didn't score. Let's bring in someone who also played against Pelé this time at the 1970 World Cup, the third World Cup the striker won during his illustrious career. It's the former Fulham and Spurs midfielder, Alan Mullery, MBE, who was part of the England side in that tournament,

who played Brazil in the group stages. Thank you for joining us. What can you say about this icon of a man? There's so many things you can say about him, because if he started as a footballer what he was i mean he must have been a very poor young man while he was playing football in brazil got through that and played for his country when he was 17 years of age in 1958 and i happened to have an aunt that had a television then and I was 10 years of age then

and had to run into her house and I could watch him playing football and I thought I want to be like him I want to do what he does if he's 17 and I'm 15 I'm going to catch him up you know and from that day since I played against him in a friendly, Brazil against England in 1967 before the World Cup, then played in the World Cup against him in 1970. And they were tough games. People asked me questions all the time. How can you stop Peli? And literally, you can't.

He could do anything. I tried to catch him. I tried to stop him. One Elf Ramsey said to me before we went out in the friendly, he said, I want you to follow him everywhere he goes. I want you to be in his shorts. So the game went on. We were drawing 0-0 at halftime.

He went into the Brazilian dressing room and I followed him. And he went in and he said to me, what are you doing here? I said, well, the manager told me to follow you everywhere I've gone. And I turned around and walked out. Elf Ramsey gotly got in there elf was doing the team talk for the back time and he said to me where you've been i said you told me to go into a pillow's trousers that's where i've just been and you know we got on with him like that i saw him in london a couple of times it was just a joy

to see him you know that big smile he had and i. I hadn't seen him for about, what, 12, 15 years, something like that. And I was in London at a function, and he was a guest of honour. And we gave each other a big hug, and we had a little chat afterwards, which was great. A great thing for me was he learned English very, very quickly. And when people talk about who are the world's best players, you can look at the world's best players, but there was only one that was better than all of them. And that was Pelé. Alan, talk to me about you being that young man, seeing Pelé and thinking, hey, I can catch up with him. And then sort of the inner child when you take to the field against them at the 1970 world cup you must have

been going through all sorts of emotions i was loving it i was loving it because something you know i had to be doing that i did it in a friendly match and i did it in the the real match you know when we played them but i enjoyed it i was going to play against the world's best footballer and see what i could do if he could turn me around and do this and do that and I mean when we came back from the World Cup after playing against Brazil I got a big placard that said you know I was the best player against Brazil so I mean that was something different I was on his towel all over the place I don't think he liked it very much but then you know when you see what he does,

and I can see that Gordon Banks said, you know, when he got to that, you were in Pellies up there, miles in the air, and knocking it past Banksy. But Banksy gets his fingers to tip the ball over the post. I mean, he was just magnificent. I've never seen anybody like him. I mean, we see modern day players today and players that have been very, very good. But this man is the top, top one.

I was going to say, you played with superstars in your time with the national team. You know, you look at the Alan Balls, Charlton, Bobby Moore, that really famous photo that I just spoke to Barry Davis about in 1970. What gave him that stardust compared to everyone else if i'd have known i'd have done it it was just as i said he you know as a 13 14 year old kid you know just playing in brazil you know in the road and things like that and he just went on to be when he what he was and he knew and he was doing things with kids that kids didn't even know about.

You know, what's this kid doing? What's he playing here? You know, and doing this and doing that. I mean, it was absolutely unbelievable. His personality showed as well. You know, many, many times where I give him a whack a few times, to be fair, and he laughed at me. And, you know, I thought he can't be laughing because I've just at me. And, you know, I thought, he can't be laughing

because I've just given him a smack, you know, in a tackle. But as everybody was talking about him, he was such a good all-round player, a one marvellous player. And I'm glad I had the opportunity to play against him on three occasions, you know, the two in the World Cup. And we had a friendly at Fulham uh well the end of his season and he came over and played and we had some real good fun playing against each other you mentioned you met him out and about off the field look we know

he was a superstar on it and he was worshipped by football fans. But what about Pele, the man, the regular man that you'd bump into in a restaurant? Was he followed and hounded like the superstars of today are? Oh, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Literally, you know, anybody that saw him wanted an autograph. They wanted this, they wanted that. If he went into a restaurant you know you couldn't go into the restaurant without being noticed because everybody knew him i mean this kid by the time he reached 30 would was playing football for 13 years it's a wonderful story

from taking it back when he was a young kid you know seeing the brazilian footballers play in in world cups or whatever it was you know it's just a wonderful story about a single man who played astonishing football and I've never ever and not because he's passed away I have never seen a better player in all my years of playing football than Pele. Alan one thing that always really comes through on anything you read and you see about Pele is just the sheer warmth and the love that he had for human beings. Forget for people, just sort of human being to human being. He really was a wonderful person. Oh yeah, he had a lovely attitude to people. When I was growing up, I went to Fulham as a schoolboy. And there was a player called Roy Bentley who played for Chelsea and Fulham. And he was playing centre-half and I was playing the midfield role. And Roy Bentley told me what to do. He told me how I should play, how I should do this, how I should do that Pele would have said

Trying to copy Pele, forget it Nobody could copy him He scored goals It was going for fun basically We just listened to you earlier Over I think it was 12 or 1300 goals He'd scored

Which is unbelievable For a guy that nine times out of ten every player that he played against an international level or you know other levels people were trying to stop him playing but he didn't get stopped he just kept going on and on and on. Alan really appreciate your time Alan Mullery MBE let's bring in the chief football writer at the Times, Henry Rinter is with us. Well, I could listen to Alan Mullery for hours. What a fantastic tribute that was. And it showed the type of the class of player that Pele was up against in that era. I mean, Alan Mullery was just one of the great defensive players.

Brilliant. Really nice memories there from Alan. Henry, in your line of work i mean people are going to be furiously typing tributes away but when you sit back and sort of reflect on this great man what are your initial thoughts well from a personal perspective as a journalist i was fortunate to interview him three times and actually for someone who was a complete superstar he wasn't actually that difficult to get to get hold of. And but an interview with Pele. First, it wasn't very long. It's normally about 10, 12 minutes. And it wasn't really a one on one.

He could draw a crowd. And if it was in a hotel lobby, there would be about 100 people around very quickly. And they will be throwing in questions i remember in the the olympics he came over in 2012 to support the brazilian olympic team and to support neymar in their bid to you know they didn't win the olympic gold but pele really wanted to support them and he went turned up an event at the victorian albert museum slightly surreal occasion and he was there and i was talking to him there was a scott there who was just shouting a question. Do you think Scotland are going to qualify for the World Cup in Brazil in 2014 in your homeland, Pelé? Mr. Pelé.

And Pelé dealt with the question. He said, yes, you can dream. You know, just keep trying. And, you know, we'll hope to see you in Brazil. And the Scot went away with just the biggest smile, you know, on his face. And that was what Pelé was all about. You will have the tributes, quite rightly, from Alan Muller about what a magnificent football he was.

The three World Cups, the 77 goals for Brazil, the fantastic layoff to Carlos Alberto in that great final in 1970, the save that Banks made, all those brilliant technical things that Pelé did. But also, I mean, he was fun. He was warm. He was an absolute superstar in an era of superstars in the 60s and 70s. He was Hollywood. He was in Escape to Victory. And one of his scenes there, he was brilliant. He even stole the scene away from Michael Caine. And you've got to be pretty good to do that. So, you know, great warmth of a man, but also what he did off the field as well as on the field.

You know, what he did for poor kids in Brazil, having experienced disadvantaged upbringing himself, shining shoes on the streets in Sao Paulo. What he also did for kids with cancer in London, helping out the great Ormond Street Hospital. You know, the great work that they do there. And Pelé was an ambassador there for a while. And those stories are echoed in countries all over the world because Pelé didn't just belong to Brazil.

He belonged to the world. He belonged to so many countries and he belonged to sport, to football, and to anyone who loved self-expression in a sporting setting, which Pelé did so beautifully. It's funny because we see showmen now in the game, people with these neat tricks, flicks, skills. But let's be fair, the OG, the original showman of the game was Pele.

If your favourite player has done it, Pele's done it before. Yeah, I mean, people say that he was a showman, but he wasn't doing it to humiliate the opposition and when you actually see you know the way Alan Mullery spoke so warmly to him that these weren't opponents well they were opponents on the field with him they wanted to beat him they wanted to follow him into the dressing room to try and close him down but the respect and the kinship and the friendship that he would have with Alan Mullery, with Bobby Moore, the famous photograph of them swapping shirts. And when Gordon Banks sadly passed away three

years ago, Pelé's Facebook tribute was so poignant, so emotional, I've lost a friend. And that's what Pelé was. He was a great footballer, the greatest, with respect to Maradona and Messi, the greatest because of the three world cups but also he was a great friend to those he played against. Pele was quoted as saying I was born to play football just like Beethoven was born to write music and Michelangelo was born to paint arguably the the greatest craftsman of the game Henry. Well if you think of the best team in world cup history you probably say Brazil 1970, Rivalinho and all the players like that. And he was the best of the best in that fantastic team.

And remember in that game, in that final against Italy, they weren't playing a bunch of journeymen. They were playing an outstanding Italian team and they beat them. They ran rings around them and Pelé was central to that. So absolutely, I mean, you know, it's very difficult to compare between generations, but when you've got someone like Alan Mullery following you around the football pitch, when you've got Bulgarians and Portuguese trying to kick you off pitches in England

during the 66 World Cup, which sadly they managed to, he survived that and still won three World Cups. The Football Writers Association paid tribute to to Pele in 2018 he couldn't make it but the late great Hugh McElvenny wrote some real beautiful beautiful words about him he said he's so romantic that sometimes he would dream of doing something nobody else could do but in the interest of the team he would be absolutely the team player and that

just speaks volumes of the human being himself well the team player that he was as Hugh rightfully wrote was you know embodied by laying off the ball to Carlos Alberto for Brazil's amazing team fourth he was a team player but the individual skills that he had juggling the ball over sort of swedish defenders to score in 58 the header which banks somehow kept up but also just that vision to try different things the run around on the czechoslovakian goalkeeper and okay he put his shot just so slightly wide it's almost the sort of the goals that he didn't score he's almost as celebrated for as as well as the huge the thousands of goals that he did score but for me it was also about the sportsmanship it was about the fun it was about the expression as well as the trophies and the goals henry thank you for your time a huge thanks

to all of our guests who gave their memories of pele and thank you for listening