Football Daily - Saudi Arabia Awarded 2034 FIFA World Cup

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

It's been confirmed the FIFA World Cup will be returning to the Middle East in 10 years' time after FIFA awarded Saudi Arabia the hosting rights to the 2034 tournament. Securing football’s most high-profile tournament is just the latest example of the Kingdom’s growing influence on global sport, which its critics say is in an effort to 'sportswash' the regime's reputation.Katie Smith is joined by BBC sports editor Dan Roan and Tariq Panja, global sports correspondent for The New York Times, to provide the background to Saudi Arabia’s unopposed bid.We hear from the president of the Saudi Arabian Football Federation, Yasser Al Misehal, and from Amanda Staveley, who was part of the Saudi-backed takeover of Newcastle United in 2021, on why the tournament will be a great success, while BBC sports news correspondent Laura Scott speaks to Norwegian Football Federation president Lise Klaveness about Norway's decision to abstain from the voting process for the 2030 and 2034 tournaments.Stephen Cockburn, Amnesty International’s head of housing, workers rights, and sport, and Wycombe Wanderers midfielder David Wheeler, the PFA’s sustainability champion, also join the podcast to discuss their concerns over human and the environment.And we ask what all this means for Saudi Arabia’s huge investments in domestic football, particularly at Newcastle United.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. The Football Daily Podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to this special episode of the Football Daily Podcast with me, Katie Smith. On the day it was confirmed that the FIFA World Cup would be returning to the Middle East. It is a great pleasure that I can confirm that the host of the FIFA World Cup 2034 will be Saudi Arabia. Mabrouk Mabrouk to our friends in Riyadh Mabrouk to everyone So that's FIFA President Gianni Infantino there officially announcing Saudi Arabia

as the 2034 Men's World Cup host nation, he was talking about 2030 as well so we'll touch on that too but securing football's most high profile tournament, just the latest example then of the kingdom's growing influence on global sports which its critics say is in an effort to sports wash the regime's reputation so what we're going to try and do here now is give you the background to saudi arabia's unopposed bid discuss the concerns of human rights in the environment too as well as asking what this means for Saudi Arabia's huge investments

in football overseas, of course, particularly at Newcastle United, in the Premier League. So alongside me to guide us through all of this, we've got the BBC sports editor, Dan Rowan, and Tarek Panja, the global sports correspondent for The New York Times. Hello to you both. Dan, I know this has been a busy, busy old day for you, but I suppose the point we need to start with

is that there were no surprises today. There was an air of inevitability and actually a real mixture of emotions for a lot of different people and groups involved in this. That's right, Katie, yes. I mean, it's surprising, isn't it, that there was little fanfare around this announcement, I guess, because this is a

country that's faced years of criticism, hasn't it, over human rights violations and fears that the World Cup could mean that many people that are building the infrastructure for it could be adversely affected or even die. It could mean major disruption to the football calendar, a massive impact on the environment.

We'll come on to all those things. But I think it will still shock some, the idea of a Saudi World Cup, because of all of that controversy. But equally, it shouldn't come as a surprise either, because they had an open goal. This was the easiest and most predictable win they could have imagined.

They had no opponent. It was an uncontested race. So today was really a rubber stamping of both their bid and, as you say, the joint Spain, Portugal and Morocco bid for the 2030 World Cup as well, which was also unopposed. Nations showed their support at this online meeting of

FIFA's Congress by acclamation. So essentially clapping on the camera. Indeed, in front of the cameras via their video links, rather than a traditional vote. Tarek was there, as you'll hear. So the only way of any dissenting national associations to express their opposition would have been to abstain from that round of applause. And that was done for both bids. They weren't conducted separately. You couldn't abstain from the Saudi bid, but support the joint bid for 2030. It was done collectively, simultaneously.

So that made it even harder for any potential protests. And Tarek, we find you in Zurich, as Dan's alluded to, so sort of there but not really there. Sort of there, not really there. We were in, I say we, maybe a dozen journalists, most of them from Saudi Arabia. No one, it turns out, from any of the 20, 30 countries. So those six nations, Portugal, Spain, Morocco, Paraguay, Argentina and Uruguay.

And we're in the back of a restaurant, basically, in FIFA's annex, watching a screen, watching other people watching a screen. It was on Zoom. And it was extremely low profile for what is the biggest sporting event on the planet. It was quite incredible, really. And this is why everyone wants it. It is the biggest sporting event. And it was almost like they wanted this thing done and dusted. And can we all move on now and turn our attentions to maybe celebrations in Saudi Arabia, maybe in Morocco, but don't ask any questions of FIFA,

the football governing body that has delivered these gifts. Yeah, and I imagine such a contrast as well from previous times that this has been done, Tarek, and you yourself would have experienced those moments. Yeah, absolutely. Chalk and cheese. I was among maybe 150, 200 journalists in Zurich at the Congress Hall here on December the 2nd, 2010, when Sepp Blatter, the former FIFA president, opened those envelopes, the first one with Russia and the second one with Qatar, which kind of upended football for the decade after.

But it also featured this incredible press conference with Vladimir Putin flying in and holding this presser, which went on for over an hour. We didn't have anyone, not even the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino, who in a way has moulded and shaped the direction of this going to Saudi Arabia. We haven't had a chance to speak to that guy since October last year when he suddenly announced that the 2034 World Cup could be suddenly bid for. And countries who are interested have 25 days and oh, they can only come from Asia. And oh, look, it's only Saudi Arabia. So there are so many questions that we haven't been able to really ask the FIFA president. And Dan feeds in to totally the criticisms then around the lack of transparency. And as Tarek was saying there, this whole issue that Saudi Arabia were unopposed, so that there was potentially going to be this bid from Australia, but what they pulled out because they had 25 days

to put something together that they, I think, themselves felt was already going very clearly in another direction. Yeah, and that's why it's been a formality, this inevitable for more than a year now, because yes, Australia did decide that it wasn't worth it. They hinted that it was futile. That tells you its own story, I guess. FIFA, look, they've defended this fast-tracked process that many argue was lacking in transparency and accountability, but critics effectively believe they paved the way for the Saudis. They engineered

it by decreeing that the 2030 World Cup would be staged across three continents. That meant that under its rotation policy, only bids from Asia and Oceania would be considered across three continents. That meant that under its rotation policy, only bids from Asia and Oceania would be considered for 34. It's also really important to note, I think here, Katie, that Saudi Arabia and FIFA under Infantino have developed a very close relationship. He's been cosying up to the Saudi leadership for some years. Saudi Arabia hosted FIFA's Club World Cup finals last year.

The governing body's also signed a very lucrative sponsorship deal with the Saudi state-owned oil giant Aramco. There's been widespread speculation that Saudi's public investment fund could make a major investment into the streaming giant DAZN, which has just agreed to broadcast the inaugural edition of Infantino's pet project, the expanded Club World Cup, in the States next summer. And I think this sense of inevitability surrounding the Saudi bid of Infantino's pet project, the expanded Club World Cup in the States next summer. And I think this sense of inevitability surrounding the Saudi bid was only reinforced last month with a very late night publication just before midnight on a Friday night, I seem to recall,

of their official evaluation report, which despite all the controversy, somehow managed to award the bid the highest ever rating. There was no media conference on that occasion either in order to explain this glowing assessment, nor the fact that the bid was deemed medium risk for human rights. Some obviously asked, what would you have to do to get a high risk rating? Given what we've seen in Saudi Arabia in recent times, low risk for environmental protection, that sparked outrage from campaigners.

I think if Infantino was here, he'd probably tell you that this anointing of hosts via uncontested bids is preferable to the past when you have these races between lots of different countries that could be vulnerable to vote swapping and attempted corruption. They've got a duty to take their flagship event to new territories. And as I say, they have defended the process, but it's been very controversial. So with all that in mind then, Dan, in terms of reaction that we've had off the back of it, that almost feels slightly underwhelming in a sense as well,

kind of feeding into the feeling of the day. It's not like FAs have been coming out and kind of denouncing this, have they? They haven't. I mean, I think it does speak to the power and influence that Saudi Arabia's vast investment in recent times has secured them across the sporting landscape, that there is so little

dissent now within the game of football. Norway's Football Federation, as we'll come to later, they did opt to abstain because of concerns over the process. There was some mild criticism from the likes of Switzerland and Denmark's associations who they approved the Saudi bid but they did say they want to see more monitoring of human rights by FIFA.

When it comes to the British football associations, they all got in line. They all backed the Saudi Arabian Football Federation last month, that LGBTQ plus fans would be given a safe welcome. And they made the point that, you know, it is a global game, that they believe that these World Cups can be a catalyst for positive change. And these are messages you'll hear from quite a few, I suspect, Western European football federations who have backed this bid. And when it comes to the hear from quite a few, I suspect, Western European football federations who have backed this bid.

And when it comes to the FA, why that is, maybe they're wary of being seen as hypocritical if they protest and abstain and then are happy to participate in the event. Maybe they've been a bit scarred by what happened to them in Qatar a couple of years ago when they made that stand over armbands and then had to back down.

They caved in, didn't they, when they were threatened by FIFA with sporting sanctions. And they're interested in probably bidding for the Women's World Cup in 2031 and may be wary of upsetting FIFA too much. But this, again, tells you a lot about how football works. And we will go on to talk about what could potentially be a catalyst for change.

You know, they've now been awarded this, what that might bring about, what kind of reforms. We'll just look at the government response then in Saudi. And actually, if you look at the scenes from Riyadh, particularly this afternoon, you know, crowds of supporters, clearly, you know, a massive football following there, we should say, and there was jubilant scenes. Let's hear now from Yasser Al-Masihal, who's the president of the Saudi Arabian Football Federation, on their vision then for this tournament.

This is such a historic moment, not only for the Saudi Arabian Football Federation, but for the growth of our sport in Asia and across the world. I feel so honoured to stand here on behalf of my country and everyone who loves football in the kingdom to highlight the importance of hosting a FIFA World Cup. وكل من يحب الفوتبول في الكنيسة لتشهد مهمتنا في موضوع مباراة بفاكسيو التنمية معاً ليس فقط مصطلحنا

إنها مشروعنا ومشاركة أعدادنا لجميع عائلات الفوتبول العالمية نحن مؤمنون في أن نلعب نفسنا ونحوص المستمرات والتنمية هذا العام، كنا نتحدث مع الكثير منكم to play our part, drive progress and grow collaboration. This year we've met and engaged with so many of you to ensure football is being played for all ages across the world, from staging tournaments and matches to hosting club and country training camps, creating referee and coaching programs, sharing technology and facilitating educational workshops. Today, تشارك التكنولوجيا والتساعد على المجالات المدرسية اليوم، تحت مركز سعودية جداً لتشارك المجالات المدرسية

من المنطقة الوطنية إلى المجالات الأساسية يتعاملون أكثر من أطفال كما أننا نتعامل مع أطفال وفتاة لدينا أطفال وفتاة أكثر من قبل تتبع السعودية بمجالات مختلفة في العالم كل عام، تأتي العديد من المشاهدات المدرسية The Saudi Pro League is now followed all over the world. Every year, hundreds of thousands of international fans come to the kingdom to enjoy our incredible sports calendar because we are trusted to deliver

in the moments that matter. That's why Saudi Arabia is described as one of the fastest and most exciting growth stories in world football. Our journey to 2034 started long ago, and thanks to your partnership, its impact will live far beyond the tournament. So a bit of the Saudi promotional vision there.

Tariq, you were listening to that, and we've talked a lot, and you can actually hear another podcast that Dan was involved with last week on our All About series, which looks at Saudi Arabian sports influence growing across the board, not just in football. But they've been increasingly getting more and more involved in massive events. Do you think, though, Tarek, that the Football World Cup, the FIFA World Cup is the pinnacle?

I mean, this is a different level for them. Yeah, it doesn't get bigger than this. I think it absolutely is huge for Saudi Arabia and its ambitions. I suppose the only other event that might be comparable, the other one that countries desperately want, are the Summer Olympic Games. But even then, in terms of eyeballs, in terms of millions of people tuning in and watching on television

and the fervour around it, there isn't anything that matches the World Cup the men's world cup uh that is and it is followed passionately in saudi arabia you just only have to look at when the world cup was in qatar those tens of thousands of saudis crossing the border watching uh their team in those group stage games that game against um argentina who went on to win, Messi's Argentina in Lusail, it was incredible. The atmosphere that the Saudi football public created and having the World Cup there would surely mean a huge deal to them.

In fact, even for this, even for today, I think it was yesterday or even the day before, they produced this 26-page celebration guide for their country, for their population. It had, you know, viewing parties, venues across the country for, you know, fireworks. And I guess no one does a drone show quite like the Saudis. So they had all of that going on as well. It's absolutely enormous, the World Cup. And do you think that for us sitting here in the Western world, and Dan, you've visited Saudi Arabia in the last couple of years,

but for a lot of us, we've never been there. Do you think, Tarek, there's maybe a sense of the excitement and jubilation that we are slightly missing here from the general public there? And by that, I mean probably a mostly male sort of dominant general public watching the football there yeah yeah yeah perhaps but even then it's a bit it's nuanced as well obviously we've seen these pictures so you know they've also got a quite a thriving domestic footballer yes they've brought all of these players there but they had

that before as well they've got some of the biggest teams in in in asian football you think about um al hilal for example that they they kind of get to the latter stages if not win the the asian champions league with with packed houses but then you go slightly further down the league and you're watching uh it's a mixed picture because you're watching teams with with with like you know a few thousand fans, empty seats as well. It's a mixed picture, but that national team is one of the most successful in Asia. It's fervently followed. But I think everyone wants the World Cup and the Saudis have got it. I think the bigger point, in a way, yes, Saudi have got what they want,

but I'm looking at it from football's point of view and FIFA's point of view as well. So Dan mentioned this continental rotation that FIFA has about taking the tournament to different parts of the world. And it's real because FIFA's mission is to grow the game, to engage populations. Now, this is going to be the second time Asia has had the World Cup since 2022 in Qatar, and only the third time overall

Japan and Korea hosted it in 2002 so you've got to ask why would FIFA host the next World Cup in Asia why would they think it's a good idea in exactly the same place that they held it before Asia is the most populous continent on the planet there are you know places that would love to host the World Cup but they've delivered it to Saudi Arabia so that of course the Saudis are but they've delivered it to Saudi Arabia. So of course the Saudis are happy. They're going to be very excited. We're seeing those pictures today.

But the decision-making still leaves you sort of wondering why. And, Dad, I listened to an interview you did with the sports minister, I believe it was, which was fascinating in one respect of the messaging that he was giving and we should talk about vision 30 shouldn't we this is like that promotional video we were just listening into there it it has been long in the making and he talked about the olympics certainly being on the schedule but then like tarik was saying there a lot of people are going to point

to that question why why is it here again and a lot of people are going to point to that question. Why? Why is it here again? And a lot of people are going to say money, surely. The motivation behind all this is the key question. The critics would tell you it's to sports wash their reputation, given their human rights record. Saudi authorities deny that. They say that that's unfair. They say that these sporting investments are all aligned with the 2030 vision. As it's known, the Crown Prince's strategic commitment to try and diversify the economy, to wean it off of its dependency on oil, to boost tourism, to act as a catalyst for modernisation and reform, inspire a youthful population to be more active. I think many people would feel that both theories are partly true and there's some truth in both. I think there's no doubt that sport, in some cases,

has helped them bring in changes. If you look at, for example, with women's football, there's been progress there in terms of participation and representation with regards to the national team and a professional league as well. When it comes to opening the country up to Western tourists and sports fans, I think sport has been a driver of that as well. But there's also a legitimate fear around whether sport's being used and exploited in order to legitimise and normalise the country as well. So it's a very thought-provoking experience going to Saudi Arabia and seeing evidence of both those theories.

But clearly the Saudis have some work to do to convince those who feel that they are effectively using sport for their own reputational reasons. So, so much to consider. Let's bring in our BBC Sports News correspondent, Laura Scott, into the conversation as well. Because, Laura, as we've been talking about here with this sort of quote-unquote voting process, you might say, leading into it,

and Dan has talked about reaction, leading into it, not many nations had been talking openly. You've spent some time in Norway this week, haven't you, with the Norway Football Federation president, because they're actually one of the few countries that have had concerns and they've been quite vocal about them. Exactly, Katie. It has been quite hard, I would say, in the lead up to the fee for Congress to find anyone who's willing to speak on the record about what's going on. We've had a lot of briefings about confusion around how this Congress would work. But Lisa

Klavenus, who's the president of the Norwegian Football Federation, is known for being vocal and a vocal critic of FIFA at times. And I went out to Oslo yesterday to hear what the Federation's board had decided about their stance. And ultimately, they abstained from this process of acclimation. And they wanted to stress that it wasn't an attack on the bidding nations. It wasn't really anything to do with what they might think about their suitability as hosts, but it was more about how this bidding process worked and their reservations, to put it mildly, about how it came about that there were two unopposed bidders for the 2030 and 2034 World Cup. And they wrote a letter to FIFA's general secretary and they said that they wanted this put in the minutes of the FIFA Congress so that their concerns were highlighted to all of

the other federations. And they said in that letter that their concerns relate to the fact that the member associations, they say, were excluded from critical stages of the bidding process. And for them, that means that that creates challenges for ensuring open and inclusive competition for hosting rights. They say there was a lack of transparency around decisions made by the FIFA Council, including the rationale, timing and criteria used for those bids. And that speaks to points that Dan made earlier around the timeframe for the 2034 World Cup in particular. And what they say is that the reforms that FIFA took back in 2016, which were backed by Gianni and Fantino, were all around trying to make the process more democratic to include the member nations. And

they say that slowly there's been a move away from those reforms, and that for them, that risks having bids that they don't know how these have come about and specifically how the scrutiny of those bids. And they say it heightens the risk related to human rights and sustainability by weakening leverage, reducing incentives to meet higher standards and undermining the practical effect and value of external critique. So I did ask her, whilst her main criticism was of the bidding process itself, which she said was flawed, I did ask her if she was supportive of Saudi Arabia hosting the 2034 World Cup. Well, I'm just very careful of saying that we are now criticising the process.

And it's very easy for us to be critical of different cultures than our own. And we know that the bigger risk generally there is in a country, for example, lack of freedom of speech, the bigger the risk it will be around big mega events. But we don't know that. We don't know if that will happen. We don't know if Saudi Arabia or Morocco or Portugal will be able to deliver on the promises they've made. Our criticism now is on the lack of clarity in what FIFA asks

from the bidding nations, on the risk on the ground, real risk, not just context analysis, which goes for all bids, not just the 2034. So for us it's very important to not go out to the Congress with a split between Norway and the rest or Norway and the bidding nations. We will cooperate with them. They will get the World Cups. Who are we to point at any others when we don't have the process to build our knowledge on? So for us, it's actually very important, from a values standpoint also, to separate those two things.

We will abstain, and it's for a reason. We don't vote against, and I think we should be very careful of doing so. When your governing body doesn't do the process it's promised to do, then you can be very political also. We will try now to do our job and of course we worry when you don't do risk

assessments as you should, how will you be able to monitor them effectively and that goes for both bids and we will lean in and try to be a cooperative monitor them effectively? And that goes for both bids. And we will lean in and try to be a cooperative party to sort of keep that in focus in the years to come. Because you were critical of Qatar, and then Norway didn't qualify for Qatar.

So I suppose it was hard to know what you would have done had you been there. Do you see this as prompting similar concerns on the point of human rights, but also we know that 11 of the 15 stadiums are going to be freshly built. Does that concern you? Yeah, well, when it comes to Qatar, when we held the speech, we were in the qualifying and hoping to qualify. So unfortunately, Norway hasn't qualified since 1998 for World Cup so hopefully that will change. We tried also then to be very careful to talk about the corrupt award of two

World Cups and the lack of work around the risk assessment going forward and also the risk of LGBTQ people not being safe at World Cup not generally in the country so I think it's very important for us football administrators and presidents to not be foreign ministers, but to work with the stadium infrastructure, danger for workers and so forth. So yes, we should all worry when we have World Cups and if the risk assessment is not done properly. But you will not be able to make me say this or that about this country because

I think it's so important they will get the World Cup. So now it's so important that we get a focus in each country to not just, okay, we support or we didn't support. What we should do is to get that risk assessment on the ground where you engage with the people with the shoes on, the workers, and how will you actually have heat protection? How will you actually have a union? If you don't have unions, how will you be able to make them know where to go if they're not paid? Health risk and security measures and so forth.

And I think, of course, the countries, we cannot follow this. We are not experts. But this needs to be an effective way to monitor and report. And in the end, before the Qatar World Cup, this happened. It was Qatar's Supreme Committee did make progress. And hopefully we can start off now in a better place. But we are concerned for the process not really engaging in that part of the discussion. Up till now now at least. So that was, Laura, your interview with Lise Claveness

of the Norwegian Football Federation. If we look at women's sport for a moment as well, those involved in it have also been particularly outspoken about saudi arabia's increasing involvement in sport of course this is in relation to to the men's world cup but but sort of if we widen it out there are concerns there yeah absolutely and i suppose it would speak to if saudi arabia one day wants to host a women's world cup which which could be in their growing list of ambitions when it comes to staging major sports events. But we did see that in October, more than 100 professional women's footballers signed an open letter to FIFA urging them to drop Aramco, the Saudi oil giant, as a sponsor.

They called it a punch in the stomach to the sport and you know they have concerns both around human rights but also the climate and environmental impacts that Aramco and others are having and I think it's interesting that at the moment it is concentrated to those women's footballers and as Dan pointed out we haven't seen huge outcry from you know some big names in the world of men's football and maybe we will see that over the next decade but maybe we won't because of the lucrative deals that they can sign in the Saudi Pro League I think what is interesting is there is some disquiet among women's sports you know athletes because of the restriction on women's rights there as well.

And you were out there, Laura, weren't you, for the WTA finals recently too, which is, you know, the pinnacle of the women's tennis season. It's the season ending finals. And it was, I thought Coco Goff's comments particularly interesting there of almost by the end of it, she was saying, you know, I think people should come and see it. Exactly. And she started the tournament as by far the most critical of the eight players there, the top eight women's players in the world. And this was such a significant moment in terms of Saudi Arabia's push into sport because it was the first major women's sports event to be hosted there. And Coco Goff had said at the outset that she'd had real reservations

about going there. Her dad was really concerned about her playing there. She said if she didn't see change, she wouldn't come back. And by the end, she was saying, you know, I want more events to be held here. And so she'd been convinced, you know, the setup was very professional. But maybe also, you know, she'd been convinced by those she'd spoken to that this was potentially a force for good. And she is a believer in sport being a force for good in places. And she's potentially been convinced that that can be true of Saudi Arabia. But it was very interesting indeed that in the space of a week,

she really changed her tune. And clearly Saudi Arabia will hope that they can convince the world that they can be a positive host for sport. But I think there will remain a lot of people who need some convincing about that. Laura, thank you so much for your time this evening. That's our correspondent, Laura Scott, joining us, looking at, I guess, some of the levels of criticism that have been put at the door of Saudi Arabia or perhaps more specifically FIFA in this example. But we're going to look more closely now at human rights and the groups that remain highly concerned that Saudi Arabia's vast state investment in sport

is being used to distract from its human rights record. Things like the 2018 murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, the war that's going on in Yemen, the absolute monarchy that they have, the treatment of women, freedom of speech, gay rights, migrant workers and their conditions. The Saudi government pushed back against these sorts of sports washing claims pointing to improvements in women's rights, as we said, freedom of speech. But we're going to bring in Stephen Cockburn now, who's Amnesty International's head of Housing, Workers' Rights and Sport.

Stephen, I just wondered if we start with, we've talked about the slightly strange mood for a lot of people today at this news that was inevitable. So I just wanted your emotions when it was officially confirmed today. Yeah, it's one of those, we've been waiting for more than a year for this decision because it was always clear last October when the process started that the answer was going to be Saudi Arabia. And the question was always, how are they going to engineer the process to make sure that that was the outcome? So today did feel surreal. It did feel inevitable. It did feel like, you know, there's been an outpouring of concern around this, but also a deafening silence from some parties as well. And there is this moment now

that the decision is made, it's done. I think, I guess I'm of the view that we should never forget what FIFA has done to ignore its own human rights policies, the risk that it has put workers in the country in, for example. But of course, now the work has to start to make sure that the human rights reforms are put in place so that this tournament isn't a disaster for human rights, but maybe could lead to some change. And that's a lot of work that obviously we will be involved in, but it needs FIFA, it needs the football associations, it needs sponsors, it needs people to stand up and be brave on this issue to avoid what could be a very dangerous decade for football in this period. Yeah, what I thought was, I just wanted to highlight this,

because I'm not sure how many people actually know this, Stephen, but FIFA basically emphasise in their human rights evaluation that they're not about pre-emptorily excluding countries based on their general human rights context and instead based on evidence of how effectively bidders intend to address human rights risks connected with the tournament and i think there's going to be a lot of people who say well that's the wrong way around surely well yeah i mean we i guess we would not either say that um saudi arabia should never be allowed a World Cup or should not be able to host because of its record on the death penalty or something else. What we would say is that if it's going to host what is the world's biggest tournament, if it's going to build 11 new stadiums, 185,000 hotel rooms involving hundreds of thousands of workers,

it needs to be able to show what new laws it's going to bring in to make sure workers get a minimum wage or be protected in heat. What new law would they bring in to stop hundreds of thousands of residents in Saudi Arabia being evicted from their homes to rebuild these enormous projects? What practical measures will it put in place to make sure LGBT fans do not face discrimination? And what will it do to ensure that people are able to speak out without being put in prison? Like very practical things that then you'd be able to say, okay, this World Cup has risks, but maybe these risks can be managed. Maybe during the process of this, the country could become better. We haven't really seen that. I think what we've seen is that FIFA has kind of whitewashed Saudi Arabia's human rights record. It hasn't got the sort of

commitments we need. And the big problem is the outcome was already decided before the process started. We won't give up on that. Obviously, we are going to try and push to make things better. But I think that's certainly a big part of the problem. And Tarek, if we bring you back into this conversation as well, I do wonder if there are some people who feel that there's almost like a futility, in a sense, on issues like this, because there's a kind of out of sight, out of mind if you're in a Western powerful nation and you're not seeing these things firsthand.

And yet we've got to remember Qatar and all these issues that we talked about so much heading into the 2022 World Cup was only two years ago. We sometimes have quite short memories on these sorts of things. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, the world kind of has moved on. Certainly, we're talking about Saudi, Saudi, Saudi, no one's really said Qatar since, you know, the Emir of Qatar draped Lionel Messi in that bisht at the end of the World Cup final there in Lusail. Migrant workers are still over there. The issues that were prevailing are still there. Have those improvements that FIFA and others have talked about?

There were real reforms that were there on paper, at least. Are they still being enacted? We don't know. The circus has kind of left town um with saudi arabia i also think in terms of human rights the the the idea that journalists as well could could go to saudi arabia and report freely in this in this enormous country with with all of the um risks that we we've talked about freedom of reporting also is perhaps an issue. If you were asking me today, do I feel comfortable to go to various sites across Saudi Arabia and see, you know, the treatment of migrant workers and to report there freely? I don't think I could say that today.

The same would be like, am I going to go and speak to members of the LGBT community in Saudi Arabia there and say, you know, let's let's do an interview. And, you know, for you guys and for Dan, maybe, you know, if he's on camera, you're just not going to risk your sources or their safety. And this all comes as part of the package. There is a chilling effect as well. So for all the things that Saudi Arabia is saying that they're going to reform and, you know, that may mean it. Holding them to account properly is not easy at all. And two other thoughts I've got, Tarek, about Qatar are that you may remember that recently there was a report released by FIFA finally after a year after it had actually submitted into the legacy of the Qatar World Cup, which the key recommendation of which was that FIFA should pay financial compensation for migrant workers that have been harmed or even killed during the building of the infrastructure

for that tournament or for their families. And FIFA chose to ignore it. They declined to take up that recommendation, even though that report had said that there were a number of workers, didn't specify exactly how many, that's been disputed for years, but there were workers who had been adversely impacted by that tournament. And I think the fear is that history could be repeated. And it does undermine the argument that sport can be a catalyst in these events for change if FIFA aren't actually carrying out the recommendations

of its own, very own subcommittee. And then secondly, I think what's interesting about Saudi is that whereas I think FIFA back in 2010 were taken by surprise at that vote that you were at, Tarek, in Zurich, when Qatar won, and maybe didn't necessarily foresee, and they didn't push for that, with Saudi, there's no doubt that Infantino

for several years now has been in favour of a Saudi World Cup. And so if history repeats itself, then they will be potentially more implicated in what happens. And many will argue, have a duty of care and therefore more responsibility for whatever happens to migrant workers building the infrastructure because they have, in some people's eyes, facilitated this outcome. It really is on FIFA.

And that report that Dan mentioned, it was such a hot potato that it'd been languishing in FIFA's draw for about a year. This was a report written by a company called Human Level that said FIFA should pay compensation where it can to people who are directly affected by the World Cup. So kind of complicated. However, FIFA did not publish this until that Friday night news dump that Dan mentioned earlier. That came out just after midnight Central European time, about 11.34 to be exact in Great Britain, alongside the Saudi evaluation report. And guess what? It means it's not going to get much coverage.

And then you create this issue of trust with FIFA? Why is FIFA doing this? It creates a kind of a shady, hazy atmosphere behind the organisation and the president Gianni Infantino. It does undermine FIFA's claims that it's moved on from the Sepp Blatter years. Despite all the infamy that came with the corruption scandal that brought down FIFA in 2015, I'd say they're less accountable now than they were then. At least we had press conferences there. They they may have been somewhat farcical.

But I seem to have had much more opportunity to question Sepp Blatter than I have with Gianni Infantino. And I'm sure many journalists feel the same. And I think that's deeply regrettable. Yeah, and it must be a frustration for you, Stephen, as well, just finally, if we come back to your perspective from Amnesty International

then, having no opportunity for journalists to be questioning Infantino, for not having the opportunity to, in many ways, I think people feel that there was no opposition. So now it has been made official. From your perspective, do your strategies now change in terms of raising awareness and holding FIFA to account? Yes, I mean, what we certainly have done and have been done over a number of years is try and hold

FIFA to its own standards. You know, FIFA actually does have human rights policies. It has human rights requirements in the bidding processes. In many ways, it was ahead of many of the other global sports bodies on this, because it had to because of the scandals that it came about the corruption scandals and also the um uh the controversies and scandals around workers rights in qatar we've always held them to that that's their own standards over the last year we've been trying to do their work for them we've provided them with dossiers and dossiers of analysis of the human rights risk in saudi arabia well as in Morocco, Portugal, and Spain, so that, on the one hand, so that they have the information they need to be able to manage the risks. But on the other hand, so they can never say they didn't know.

They didn't know the risks. They can never claim they didn't know the consequences of this decision. So now going forward, obviously, we recognize that this decision is taken. One, we have to look about how do we hold FIFA accountable for this decision in the future? That's one important issue. How do we better regulate? How do we make sure FIFA is better governed to not make sure these errors keep being made and that lessons are actually learned? And the other is to engage with the Saudi authorities and FIFA to start to see the reforms on the ground that are

desperately needed to save workers lives to stop them being exploited to release political prisoners from from jails to allow journalists to do their work to protect people from discrimination that's a decade-long body of work that has to start now um or we could repeat the error of qatar of you know bringing in a couple of important reforms a few years before the tournament happens, you know, and, you know, a decade and not dealing with a decade of very serious abuse that led up to that. Stephen, really important to get your perspective this evening. Thank you very much for joining us on the Football Daily. That's Stephen Cockburn of Amnesty International and obviously human rights are a major issue.

But another one that we now need to look at, it sort of feels like we're pulling out kind of major issue after major issue. But we've got to talk about sustainability as well around a World Cup in Saudi Arabia, particularly given its record on climate change. The Kingdom plans as well to construct 11 new stadiums, including a 46,000-seater in a new city down that hasn't even been built yet i mean these are the kind of times we're talking sort of sounds quite mystical doesn't it neon it's going to be um you can go and see on the bbc sport website loads of

kind of flashy pictures of the vision um they're calling it the most unique stadium in the world there's going to be lifts it's it's about as as the Empire State Building, isn't it? You've got to get up there. And it's just a whole unique world that I don't think we've ever seen. And it follows Saudi Arabia signing a sponsorship deal with FIFA as well to promote Aramco. We've talked quite a lot about that for the next two World Cups. There's a lot involved here. We're going to bring in Wickham Wanderersfielder, David Wheeler, into the conversation. Also the PFA's first sustainability champion.

David, on your social media account earlier, I saw you posted, the inevitable has happened. It is the greediest, most polluting, destructive and corrupt decision in sporting events history. So I think probably fair of me to say that you feel this is a sad day. I mean, thank you very much for having me on. I think a lot's been covered already about the human costs in terms of, you know, the migrant worker deaths. And obviously, you know, to women's rights and gay rights where women and gay people are routinely locked up in the country for just being themselves. But also there's a quite a huge planetary cost, as you've alluded to,

the construction of 11 new stadiums, all were going to be probably, have to be extensively air conditioned and a whole city is going to be absolutely colossal. And experts have said that Saudi Arabia will be worse for climate than the Qatar World Cup, which was the most polluting world cup ever despite fifa claiming that it was the greenest world cup ever and i was part of um you know a

group of people that came out and and challenged them on that and and said that it was wrong and it was obviously proved to be wrong um but also the greed element of it in the sense that they've accepted what's reportedly around a billion dollars of sponsorship from Saudi Aramco, which is a state-owned oil company. And they're also the world's largest corporate greenhouse gas emitter, which just goes to show where their morals are on multiple fronts at the moment. Dan, just to bring you in on this as well, we probably should say or talk about the 2030 World Cup within these contexts of sustainability as well

because that has kind of gone under the Saudi Arabia blanket today, hasn't it, with all the controversies. But that is taking place across three continents. So, David, we'll bring you in on this as well. But, Dan, just to kind of outline that for us. Yeah, it's remarkable, isn't it? That the idea that fans would be expected perhaps, depending on the draw,

to fly across the Atlantic from Europe to play one match in South America and then back again to follow their team. And it does jar with all of the claims and statements that FIFA make, along with a number of other football bodies, it has to be said, around sustainability and being more green aware. And of course, FIFA have got form in this regard

because they claimed that the Qatar World Cup would be carbon neutral. There were a number of complaints. I remember we broke the story, actually, here at the BBC, and the fact that these complaints had been launched, a collective complaint, and a Swiss regulator subsequently found that FIFA had indeed misled fans over those claims. FIFA's actual report into the 2030 World Cup did actually acknowledge, Katie,

the fact that because of the long-distance travel and the plane, the air miles that would be clocked up, there would be an adverse impact on the environment. They did say that it would be mitigated against, I seem to recall, in their evaluation report. But I think many campaigners will be dismayed at the idea of a three continental World Cup, certainly. And David, your thoughts on that then?

Because when Dan laid it out, I mean, it's slightly mind-blowing, isn't it? From a fan perspective, from a player perspective, but from FIFA's perspective as a a governing body that is supposedly having a stance on sustainability and supportive of of certain goals and and promises obviously they have to balance their global obligations but it's it's just hard to even get your head around. I think it's quite clear that FIFA have abandoned all of the regulations and anything that they've put out in terms of social responsibility as well. But if we just rewind a little bit just to the 2026 World Cup where you're talking about it spanning a whole continent in usa mexico canada which in

itself is insane but you know moving on to like you said uh looking at three three different continents um having to have that amount of flying um which is the other major climate impact um but also all of these world cups from here on out are going to be have 40 more matches than than they have done um which which in itself is going to have a huge huge carbon footprint um but the other thing i just i just want to touch on as well about the next couple of world cups is that there there's they're still supposed to be held in in summer, which is there's going to be a serious threat to players and fans health from extreme heat. But also coming just briefly back to the Saudi Arabia, the Saudi Arabia World Cup is that they're one of the worst offenders in terms of trying to slow down the transition away from fossil fuels are international climate negotiations. And giving them a platform on the world stage like this is only going to make that situation worse when it's clear that

government officials and people that represent us on the international stage are finding it difficult enough to agree on the simplest of things in transitioning away from fossil fuels. And David's touching on that player welfare issue as well. So we are, I think Dan, almost completely sure that this will be a winter World Cup. There's a high chance it could be in January as well.

That's right, isn't it? Because of Ramadan and issues around there. So it might actually be a 2035 World Cup rather than a 2034. But David, from a player's perspective, obviously it raises so many issues.

Mid-season in an already packed calendar is something we come to over and over again. But your take on that? Yeah, I mean, it's not just a FIFA problem. I mean, they do seem to have an obsession with the Club World Cup, which is also expanding, which virtually no other football fan or body seems to share that obsession. I think it's, you know, in some ways trying to wrest some power away from UEFA. But yeah, it just is completely baffling. And across the football industry,

the players' welfare doesn't really seem to be factored in an awful lot. And that includes fans really as well. the players' welfare doesn't really seem to be factored in an awful lot. And that includes fans, really, as well. Would you want to hear players talking up about it more, David? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, we've seen from the letter from over 100 female players to FIFA to drop their sponsorship with Saudi Aramco that there are many female players that are that are willing to to speak up but there's still um sadly as a lack of male players prepared to do the same

but yeah I especially now with with so much time until the Saudi World Cup um I really hope that there are professional players top professional players that come out and say that this isn't a good idea but I want to stress that it shouldn't really be down to the players as much as it would help it should should be down to the governing bodies they shouldn't be sitting on their hands and taking this lightly I'd look to the FA especially as a leader to to say that no we're not going to take this lying down we're not accepting this this is not in line with our values and there is time to to find another host but tarik highly unlikely that we're going to see fa's boycotting an event like the world cup i mean dan laid it out earlier that they feel there's a hypocrisy element of

talking up criticism and then saying but we really want to win the world cup so we probably will see there yeah absolutely that and also dan mentioned there are things that the fa and other fa's want from fifa most of them want money so if you think about what fifa is it's got billions of dollars in cash to hand out to national fa's most of the 211 fifa members are relying on this income to function and for other things not not the english fa and not the bigger ones. What do they want? They want tournaments.

Dan mentioned the Women's World Cup. The Germans want things, et cetera, et cetera. And as Dan alluded to, some of them felt burned by what happened in Qatar. Germany, for example, didn't make it out of the group stage after an on-field protest from their players. But there's another group that we've not talked about today. If you look at what happened when Qatar hosted the World Cup, there was a huge outcry from leagues and clubs and groups like that.

We haven't seen anything of the sort now. And there is a reason for that. And it's something that the Saudis perhaps have a lot of. And it's to do with money, again, because Qatar essentially, in many ways, laid the groundwork. Qatar invested huge amounts of money in European football, be it TV rights through BN Media Group, that TV network that is broadcast in the Middle East, but also in Africa, parts of Europe, and even the Americas. So a huge amount of money went into leagues and clubs from there.

There's sponsorship agreements as well. And you're looking at European football outside of the Premier League. You're seeing TV deals shrinking. Now, if the Saudis and Mohammed bin Salman want to open those purse strings and feather the nest of football, I'm sure there's going to be receptive hands reaching out for that. And that's one of the things that has been very obvious over the last 10 years. We talk about issues like human rights and climate quite rightly, but for the people who are kind of responsible for football, who are essentially running the game, often the thing that

is bigger than all of it for them seems, unfortunately for many people, be the bottom line yeah it's all uh there's a strange sense today david and i can feel that from you your energy that you've brought to the podcast this evening i know there's a lot of mixed emotions but we really appreciate you coming on and and talking about these issues um and i definitely believe that won't be the last time we'll talk to you in the next 10 years. No, yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me on. And yeah, I just hope that, you know, in some way, morality can overcome greed at some point. David Wheeler there, Wickham Wanderers midfielder, also the PFA's first sustainability champion. The other thing I just want to get into before we finish up is how this could impact on Saudi's other footballing interests, namely the domestic Saudi Pro League and Newcastle United,

which we haven't really talked about much yet, Dan, which the country's public investment fund has a majority stake in. So it could be really interesting here, couldn't it? They've got 10 years now leading into 2034. How much investment do we think we're going to see heading the way of Newcastle? It's difficult to say, isn't it? I'm sure they would love Newcastle United to be challenging for the Premier League and Champions League in a similar way that Abu Dhabi's enjoyed with Manchester City, although that's an entirely different story. We'll want another pod in the future, no doubt. But obviously the financial spending restrictions currently mean that that's unlikely with Newcastle United, the PSR rules in the Premier League, certainly. I have to see what plays out in the future. Whether or not Newcastle United are asked,

their players and manager, to become ambassadors for the World Cup. I've noticed that Karim Benzema, for example, who plays obviously in the Saudi Pro League, has been giving quotes this week as an ambassador to the World Cup. There's a chance of that, perhaps. There's already pre-season visits, for example, we've seen, and the sponsorship links between the club as well,

which might put some of the players in a difficult position. We'll have to see. Yeah, because I think by the word investment, obviously we've got regulations around that, but invest, I suppose, is so much more than money, isn't it? And the promotional opportunities. And we'll touch on that in a moment. I'm sure we're going to see the controversial third kit

coming out a little bit more in Newcastle over the next few years. But let's hear from British businesswoman Amanda Stavely, who was part of that Saudi-backed takeover of Newcastle back in 2021. She left the club this summer, but she expects the Saudi Arabia World Cup to be a success. I think they will be an incredible custodian of the World Cup. I think it's going to be the most exciting World Cup. I have to say the Qatar games were extraordinary. I just loved being there and being part of the World Cup.

And I think that one of the benefits of Saudi is the most beautiful country with the warmest, kindest people. So I'm really excited to see the World Cup on its next journey. And I'm actually really excited to see the World Cup in Gulf states. So it's going to be beautiful.

And I can't wait to visit. Tarek, your thoughts? Well no doubt Amanda Staveley is excited her business runs through the Middle East and the Gulf these are great opportunities for her and other people with links to the Gulf but in Amanda Staveley I suppose Britain has an expert on the region her her knowledge of both the sports scene and the investment scene over there um you know again time will tell this this this thing is you've described this project it's just when you it's incredible isn't it when you when you put the different elements you've mentioned a city that's essentially going to be built in the sky with a stadium with a lift and all the rest of it. It is just kind of

something from the future. Whether that is a dystopian future, I suppose, is something that we're going to see in the fullness of time. But, you know, these are serious questions. And there's going to be many, many cheerleaders. You mentioned Newcastle United. It plays in the Premier League, which is the most popular football league in the world, bar none. That is an incredible billboard for Saudi Arabia to project its hopes for the World Cup and for other entities that are linked to Saudi. A lot of their sponsors are from there. So maybe we will see Newcastle used as a promotional tool for Saudi Arabia. You certainly think they will. On the flip side of that, though,

perhaps a slightly naive comment to make, but is there a world where Newcastle and or the Premier League perhaps would want to, say, distance themselves from certain criticisms or almost feel as though, yes, we're kind of a closer to home entity away from Saudi Arabia.

So actually we might play a part in making sure that they are held to certain standards and that there is no hiding away for the next 10 years. Newcastle, the club, will find it very difficult to do that. Its chairman, of course, is Yasser al-Rumayan, the governor of the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia. This is the organisation which is essentially the purse of Saudi sports as one of its jobs. So I can't imagine there's going to be critical voices coming out of Newcastle. I think there's a tiny, tiny percentage of the fan base there that has talked about some of these issues. And in terms of the Premier League itself,

of course, this was the league that rubber-stamped the takeover, which had people scratching their heads. I can't remember exactly what the term they used was. They had legally binding signatures or some legally binding contracts that the Saudi state isn't involved with Newcastle, if I remember correctly. And that's quite hard to believe when I just described to you that Yasser Al-Rumayyan, the chairman of Newcastle, also the governor of Saudi Arabia.

It's going to be interesting. The other thing with Newcastle is Saudi Arabia is doing so much. Now in football, particularly, now we've got the World Cup here, they've got the PIF, the Public Investment Fund, essentially took control of the four biggest clubs in Saudi Arabia, Al-Hilal, Etihad,

Al-Nasr, Ronaldo's team and Al-Ali, where Roberto Firmino and others, Riyad Mahrez, the former Manchester City player, they've got so many things on.

The thing for Newcastle fans, the big question will be, will they lose their focus maybe on us given all these other jobs they've got? Yeah, that's a really interesting point, actually. I mean, we could carry on for hours. I'm not going to because I think Dan Rowan might actually

fall to his feet in front of me and drop to the ground. But Dan, before we go, I mean, it's slightly remiss in the Football Daily podcast that we haven't actually really talked about any football at all. And one thing that will be incredibly interesting

over the next 10 years and then at the tournament itself is how Saudi Arabia will actually get on. Yeah, and they got on pretty well, didn't they, in the last World Cup when they had one team to beat Argentina in that remarkable opening match. And had a lot of support there as well, didn't they, in the last World Cup when they had one team to beat, Argentina, in that remarkable opening match. And had a lot of support there as well, didn't they?

Yeah, I was there and they had very good support. There was a big Saudi sort of influence on that World Cup. Not just the fans, but the fact that the Crown Prince was there at several of the matches. It became apparent that they were preparing a bid. I don't think this will be the end of their ambitions either. I mean, Tarek mentioned the Olympics. I'm sure they'd love to bring the Olympics to Saudi Arabia in the future.

If you'd said to people just a few years ago that Qatar and neighbouring Saudi Arabia would host the World Cups both within 12 years, very few would have believed it. But it gives you a sense of how the world of football is changing. And the fact is that for all of the controversy, many fans, Saudi fans and many others from around the world, really enjoyed that World Cup. They delivered it, the Qataris. It was safe and secure for the vast majority of people that came for it. Obviously, there were many other issues that people have concerns about. But I think Saudi Arabia was really encouraged by that. I think it inspired them to do the same. And it will be fascinating now to see

whether they try and produce a team that can challenge, whether bringing lots of highly paid players from South America and former Premier League players to the Pro League is the way to develop their young players in the next decade. We'll have to see. They're saying they're going to invest in that. But it will be really interesting because I'm sure they would love to have a competitive team come 2034. And a final one-word answer from you both then. Are we going to see Cristiano Ronaldo managing Saudi Arabia

at the World Cup? Yeah, well, certainly not managing. He'll have a role. I wouldn't rule him out from playing it, the way he's going. That's what I was going to say. As you said, Dan, 10 years, a very long time in the world in football. There'll be so much to debate and discuss. But for now, thanks certainly to our sports editor, Dan Rowan, to Tarek Panja of The New York Times,

Laura Scott, Steve Cockburn and David Wheeler joining us on this special Football Daily podcast on a huge day for football. Saudi Arabia being selected as the host of the World Cup in 10 years' time. And I am fairly confident in saying this will not be the last time we're going to talk about that between now and then. We'll see you next time. Hello, Gary Lineker here. Join myself, Alan Shearer and Micah Richards for The Rest Is Football,

the essential podcast for football fans. We'll be bringing strong opinions on all the latest stories from the Premier League and indeed the wider world of football in a show that combines

topical debate with the most outrageous tales from our own careers. Will Liverpool have enough to win the Premier League this season? Will Real Madrid's new Galacticos era

be a success? Why did Gaza bring an ostrich to training? The rest is football. Listen on BBC Sounds.