Football Daily - Special: 2026 World Cup final referee Slavko Vincic

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Alistair Bruce-Ball is joined by 2026 World Cup final referee Slavko Vincic and journalist William Ralston, author of the Impossible Job about challenges faced by modern-day referees. Chris Sutton, Rory Smith and Charlie Adam also join the conversation as they discuss what it's like to take charge of the biggest game in football. Slavko shares what it’s like to operate under so much pressure, plus the highs and lows of his career. But will he discuss who is the biggest diver he had to deal with? TIMECODES:01:10 William Ralston 05:50 Slavko Vincic on the impossible job 12:00 Active decision making 20:00 VAR

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret, of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students, he's trying to silence. If this is leaked to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Seward.

secrets, catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your BBC podcasts. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret, of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students, he's trying to silence. If this is leaked to the media, I'll be.

destroyed. This is World of Secrets, Catching My Teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts. This is the Football Daily Podcast with Alistair Bruce Ball. So there probably isn't a single job in football scrutinise more than that of the referee. Their split-second decisions analysed, poured over and dissected from a myriad of different angles. The pressure they're under at the top level and how they did.

deal with it is the central theme in a new book called The Impossible Job. We are joined now by its author William Ralston. Thank you very much for joining us. Rory Smith, Chris Sutton and Charlie Adam are here too. My first question on this, William, is the title of the book, did you start with the title and then go and gather the evidence to prove it because you knew it, the impossible job or did you start writing it and realize this is an impossible job, that's the title of the book? We had the title first. It was, I wrote a long read about this for The Guardian where I followed two Premier League referees across the season. And that was the title of that article, simply because it is the impossible job in the sense that obviously so many of the decisions that referees

make are subjective, so you're never going to please everyone. So we kind of took that from the article and used it for the book and obviously expanded upon that reporting. Who did you follow then? And what were the most striking things for you from doing that? Sort of what were the biggest takeaways? So for the Guardian story, it was two referees, two Premier League referees, Andreemar and Darren England. And then for the book, I wanted to look at the elite elite refereeing.

They're the very, very top. Obviously, Slavka Vinchit, she's joining us later, who did the work at final. but there was Claimantir by the top French referee. There was Simon Marcianiac, the top Polish referee, did the World Cup final. The last one, there was Anthony Taylor from England,

Mark Aguida from Italy, and Jose Maria Sanchez from Spain. So each of the top five major European leagues plus some others. William, do you think you'll ever write the book about referees called The Possible Job? Not unless they change the laws, no. But William, what about, so what about the common themes then.

So the referees names you've mentioned, but the stresses of the job and the pressures, what was it that struck you most? Well, I think one of the fundamental lessons I learnt was that we really fundamentally misunderstand the complexity of what a referee is doing on the field. We think that they're making decisions of, and obviously that's a large part of what their job is,

is judging whether it's a foul, whether it's a yellow car, whether it's a red card. But I really learned about the skill of managing players. It's essentially a lesson, a job of psychology trying to control 22 players plus the benches plus whoever else is involved trying to keep those egos under control is a real it's a real art form and having spent time and understood how the referees do that was really really striking so how do they do that well different referees do it in different ways anthony taylor i attended several games with him

and he's obviously a former prison warder he he was extremely extremely um uh diligent his preparation I mean, I went to a Walls game, Walls versus Leeds game with him. And for each single player on the pitch, he had notes about what line to go back with them with, whether it was to go back with a strong line, whether it was to go back, and be quite calm with them.

And, you know, it was preparation. But obviously, if different referees do it in different ways, some referees can be quite strong and stern, and that's the way of a certain authority. Some referees do it in more subtler ways, I suppose. You know, a referee like Simon Martiniak, or Kalina obviously who were very quite aggressive in their stances control players very differently

and in a control players very differently to people like Clemore Turpa who's you know quite diminutive not so aggressive in his body language but they both reached the same goal Charlie what was your experience then as a player being handled by referee so in terms of what Williams talking about there could you sort of work out their game

as they were trying to work out you in terms of manage you? Yeah, I was, you know, I always said that Matt Clattenberg was the best because you can give him a bit of stick and you give you a bit of stick in how you're playing. And I think that's how we're as former players and it's different because now I'm going from former player

to head coach to seeing the different frustrations within the game. But I was a person that wanted to have a bit of a laugh with the referees because for me, it's, you know, it's so tough being a referee we as players could make 10 mistakes again

and one we get punished for these referees make one mistake and all of a sudden they are hounded six different cameras front of the newspaper it's such a difficult job they've got 22 players two benches

and 60,000 to deal with so the psychology of being a referee it's an impossible job it's an impossible job but what I do think is now has made it, made it for referees, the fear of making a decision, and they know that they can protect themselves with the var.

And that's my biggest thing is that I don't think they're clear and concise that they want to make a decision because they know they've got VAR at the side. And that's the thing for me and the frustration of VAR. Okay, well, let's speak to a referee then right at the very top of the game. I'm delighted to say on the Monday Nightclub, we're now joined by Slavko Vinchich, who refereed that World Cup final. in New York just three months ago

as referee to Champions League final, Europa League final as well. That was the Rangers game against Eintracht Frankfurt. Slavko, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. I mean, there is so much to ask you here in such a short space of time.

I mean, let's start on The Impossible Job. So that's what it's being described as. But you've done this job for a long time. Is it impossible? So good evening to everybody. Good evening to UK. No, it is a possible job, but it's very difficult one. Yeah.

So to be honest, it is possible but difficult. Okay. So what about then, you personally, how did you deal with the pressure of the job? And I'm thinking particularly, you know, because it is in our recent memory, walking out in New York this summer, the biggest game of football on the planet and you're in charge. How do you deal with that? So it's very difficult to describe all the emotions, especially for this one. World Cup final is probably the biggest match that sport can offer.

So for me, there was also another dimension. I already knew it was going to be my last match. I had decided before the World Cup that I will finish my refereeing career after the tournament. So when I walked out for the final, I knew there would be no next match. That creates a special kind of pressure. in one match somehow everything you have done during your whole career comes

together years of work, sacrifices matches, good decisions, difficult moments and finally people also remember you what happens in this final match so there is no second chance there is no like how to say the rest of the following week

the following weekend yeah so and with national teams there is also another emotional dimension so you are done not only dealing with, let's say, 11 players from each side. Behind there are millions of people, two countries, supporters, families, dreams of national emotions. So for them can be the biggest sporting moment of their life. So, yeah, of course, you feel something when you walk out.

But generally, you must, how to say, separate emotions from responsibility. Once the whistle goes, you cannot think this is my last match, this is the World Cup final. the whole world is watching. So all you have to think is the next situation, the next challenge, the next decision, that was always my dealing with my dealing with the pressure. So you respect the occasion, but you cannot allow the occasion

comes bigger than you. So after the first whistle, you need to train your brain and this comes with experience that it's only a football. It became a football. Can I answer two questions, please? as players we could sense that referees

sort of lose control within the games and do the referees sense that themselves and also what would they actually do to regain that control of the game so it's the first one for sure the the players immediately

when they feel that some uncertainty they feel the blood immediately so and of course And when you see the reaction of the players that they don't trust you in some certain moment, you have this feeling that you are, now you need to regain the control.

So this is the quality of the referees that they can adapt very quickly. How they are doing, it's different approaches, different personalities. We are all different human beings. We react in how to say our different way, our culture and so on. But yeah, you need to do it.

it very quickly and you need to find this communication that the players feel that even they are not how to say even they feel that you were not correct at this moment that you are fair enough to trust you in the next next moments of the match. One of the stories that really, I think one of the things that really amazed me is the example. I watched you when he refereed the Champions League semifinal last year, Arsenal versus Paris Saint-German, I believe it was in London it was. And in that match, you spoke about how you were forced into a yellow card early on the match and you lost control. And I specifically remember on commentary, Alan Shearer saying the referees lost control here,

felt like you were losing control. But you spoke to me very candidly about how you regain control with a – I think what you called is it was a tactical yellow card. Perhaps you can use that example of how you lost control and how you regained that control. Yeah, so it's not only about this match. This happened a lot of times. in the matches, you know, the first yellow card, especially in the big match, should be clear enough that, how to say, that sets the line of yellow cards. And in that particular match, it was more a tactical foul. So it was more a refereeing yellow card than the yellow card that everybody understands.

So, yeah, after that, you need to, when you lose this, how to say, when the players and all the audience and everything, don't understand really why you gave this yellow card that only referees understand. Then after that you need to, especially if it happens in the early stage of the match, then you need to be really precise and correct in every next decision. and I'm talking about the small decisions from the throwing that you can regain the trust of all the players and the bench. Slavko, can you mention kind of regaining control through making an active decision, so awarding a yellow car to try and kind of, I guess, rein the players in.

Can you also assert control by not doing that, by allowing the game to flow, to accept that the kind of the game is taken on that? that kind of nature. Yeah, it depends on the match. Of course you can. It's all about how to say balance, you know. But generally, what is a yellow card needs to be a yellow card

because the referee is there to protect the loss of the game. But you have also a situation which are not so, how to say, black or white. So depends which line you will, which approach you will have in certain match, but it needs to be a balance on the left or the right side. Slavko, I mean, you'd have refereed pre-VAR. Did VAR change your approach to refereeing? Or was is your process the same? So we are for sure change the approach of the refereeing.

So there are many experts. So first of all, if we are talking about we are what's what change in my philosophy and my so one is when you when you are called going to the screen and overturning your decisions so going to the

screen it's a it was really a fight inside it's all always was and always it is a fight in your how to say psychologically part because in most cases we are calls you because because he believes something may be wrong with your original decision. And in most cases, we will have a very strong reason to call you.

He has more angles, camera angles, different speeds, replays, more time to analyze that you had in real time on the pitch. So as a referee, the first thing you need is an open mind. So you have to be ready to accept that maybe you didn't see something okay. maybe your angle was not good or maybe your interpretation was wrong but you know on the other side the VR is also human so sometimes the work VR can become too focused on one detailed miss another element or interpret the situation differently so that's why the referee on the field still has responsibility so this is one thing didn't change but the VR changing and in that kind of of pressure that you have a safe parachute now. So if it will be a clear one in general,

in general you will, how to say you can correct or see the decision again to have a better information to correct it and then the finally if you change the decision you make an original mistake but the teams will not be affected. The result will not be affected. So this this pressure is now less, how to say. I'm just thinking about you've obviously managed and referees, some of the great games and great managers, great players, but would you manage personalities differently? So again, like you say, would you speak to an experienced captain

differently from say a 19 year old captain that's just coming through or would it still be the same sort of way of talking to them? No, it's difficult to answer this one, but philosophy is that, you know, if from the start, from the start, referees can make a mistake, but we cannot lose our personality. So we must be fair. We must have a, how to say, this, this authority which we have,

it's not a distance, you know. It's just making the rules, implying laws of the game, setting the lines, but we had to have the same approach. So if this approach needs to be like human, you know, so it doesn't matter if this is a top level captain or this 19 years captain, you need to have the same approach. As part of the reporting on the book,

I spent time with two referees, both of whom you obviously know very well, Clemorturpa and Tobias Steele. Both of them had very different approaches to refereeing. We spoke about quite a lot about decisions of feeling where you're calling a big decision, a penalty or a red card or even a yellow card, and you aren't quite sure about it. You don't see the contact or using your intuition.

You spoke to me specifically about the Champions League final when you booked Venetius Jr. Even though you hadn't seen the foul, but your intuition told you. When it goes to those two referees, Clermott and Tobias, they both have very different approaches. Clemoth specifically says that if he isn't sure about those decisions, but he thinks it is, he will still give the penalty, still give the yellow card, still give the red card. Tobias is the opposite.

If he's not sure, he will go to VAR. Essentially is that he, you know, is that he will defer big calls to VAR if he isn't sure. I'm curious to know, in your experience,

how did you, how did you find the courage to trust that intuition when you knew there was that parachute, as you said before? So when I talk with you about the intuition,

I didn't mean about the guessing, you know? So after some, many matches after so many thousands of challenges you saw your brain start to recognize how to say patterns almost automatically. Sometimes

your eyes don't have a perfect view or exact, let's say point of contact but you see the speed of the player, the moment of the defender's leg, the reaction of the attacker I don't know, direction of the ball the body balance you know, all of these things together.

Your brain then processes this very quickly. It's similar to experience the goalkeeper, you know. So goalkeeper is anticipating where a striker will shoot. He doesn't calculate 10 different things, you know. He's just experienced and some tells him that what probably will is going to happen.

So from the referee, intuition is really like an experience, you know, but there is important difference. So intuition cannot help you, but you must never invent something, you know. but what didn't happen, you know, or what didn't see. And this is the, this is about the topics you ask also about the VR. So you are, you have three possibilities. We are talking now about, let's say, about big decisions.

So it's not only you have option, you see the penalty and you will sell a penalty. Or you see the situation, this is for you, not the penalty. So you made the decision, penalty or no penalty. But there are also a third option when you don't have enough information. So you were blocked or you didn't see enough to decide this is a penalty or this is not a penalty. And then this third option is that you are not inventing something or a whistle something. you didn't see. So this is the moment

when you need to let VR to do your job. So he will tell you or give you information what you didn't see. So this can be no VR, no VR, how to say,

intervention or VR intervention. Doesn't matter. But there are three options, as I said. So sometimes the people are saying that the referees are waiting for VR. I don't think,

this is the, how to say, the right word, because you have three options. So penalty, when you have enough information, this is a penalty for you. Or no penalty when you see the situation and the elements are for no penalty. And then the third one, when you don't have enough to decide first two, you understand? To what extent, though, does VAR kind of override that intuition? is I think one of the complaints that a lot of people have around what feels like the micro-referring of incidents is that maybe that smell of the game,

that expertise that you've built up over the course of 20 or 30 years officiating, that is somehow kind of disempowered by somebody who's not there, who's not seeing it, not feeling it, making a decision based on X number of camera angles, slow motion replays, all this stuff. It feels sometimes as though, to me, VAR is really, really good at implementing the letter of the law, but absolutely terrible at understanding

the spirit of the law. Yeah. It's very difficult to comment these things, you know, but generally, I think VR corrected more than 90% of clear and obvious mistakes. And behind Behind the VR, it's still the human being. It's still the person. So we cannot have a perfect world. So we will have mistakes. It's still, how to say, a young technology. So we are adapting.

We are trying to make it better. But when the human being is involved, we will always have a different interpretation. We will always have, how to say, mistakes or not mistakes. And I think this is finally the world we are living here. Slavka, we'll sometimes say after a big call, a contentious call by a referee and the officials in a game, that we'd love to hear them interviewed afterwards,

to give an interview after the game to explain the decision. So we'll often get a statement from, you know, the referees, authorities. Did you ever feel after a game that you wanted to speak and explain the decisions you've given, or did you actually think that would just open a whole world of trouble for you? No, let's say if you, I'm not against. I didn't, I was not involved with that, that kind of how to say process.

But let's say if I want to speak something, I need to be sure that I have the all information what happened. So, you know, sometimes it's better not to speak if you didn't see the clip correctly, if you don't have, you know, if you are still a warm head after the match and so on. So I'm not against it, but it's, I'm, you know, neutral. I don't know. I don't know.

We've been talking Slavka about how difficult the job is. Why did you want to do it in the first place? And what are the biggest highs? What's the biggest thrill? of being a referee. So the, yeah, the biggest thrill for sure, it's, you know, all the adrenaline, you know, all the big matches, the atmosphere, the full stadiums,

the, you know, this concentration before the kickoff, you know, all the people you met in this, you meet in this, how to say life, friendship and everything. So, yeah, it is a different. difficult job but also has, how to say, very positive, very nice, nice things. Slavko, just last one has been fascinating listening to you. Who was the worst diver? Chris? Come on. So listen, Chris, Chris? So even if even if I finish my career, you know, still I will be a little politician

so some things that happens in the pitch let's stay in the pitch and you know it will be more professional so so Chris's famous catchphrase over here Slavko is you're better than that and Chris you are definitely better than that Slavko thank you very much indeed for talking to us absolutely fascinating

great to have you on the Monday now that's Slavko Vincizsche referee who refereed the World Cup final in June and he said there, he said there, William, so not the impossible job. But I think, I think the point that Charlie brought up straight away, William

who wrote this book, The Impossible Job, about VAR, is kind of, for me, is the crux of it, particularly with the sort of modern refereeing, in that it's brought this expectation of we're going to get perfection, but that is impossible. That's the thing that's impossible. Can I just make one point

that's really interesting that Slavko you alluded to a minute ago? In Germany, I don't know how much you know this, but it blew my mind. They have a radical approach to refereeing over there, completely opposite to what you have over here, where referees are guarded and they don't give interviews. Over in Germany, they go to the other extreme. They give regularly interviews. So much so that a referee walked out when I was reporting the book and he was given a standing ovation. Referees over there are partly because they've allowed

transparency, referees are allowed to reveal their humanity. They're allowed to reveal their skill. The attitude and the environment in which referees operate has completely changed. So I think there probably is an argument to be to be made that if referees were allowed to explain decisions that I think that that would I think there's a possibility that that would contribute to a more positive environment on refereeing. Charlie? Yeah, I just saying, let's say, you've managed to spend a lot of time with elite referees for this book.

What's the biggest thing that we as coaches, players, managers, pundits, completely misunderstand about refereeing? Well, firstly, I mean, I've learned that, I mean, I learned to referee myself of the book. I trained and grabbed a whistle and firstly, you'd have to ask the local, the local FAA. Probably not. In my first game, there was a big brawl that broke out, 22 players. So I wasn't very good at the beginning. I would say I'm okay now.

That's tricky, though. Yeah, yeah. Happening the World Cup final. It was really, really, yeah. It's true, yeah. It was really tricky. Even the linesmen were in the middle of the final. the pitch with my flags using them as weapons.

So it was a rough day at the office. But I think, no, no, no, no. But it is the complexity of the law is one of them. But I go back to what I said before. It's the skill of trying to manage people. I, in that match, the reason it blew up was because I remember it. In the 33rd minute, I remember looking at my watch and I remember a player putting a two-footed tackle and I thought, God, I didn't give me yellow card.

And I put my hand round his shoulder and said, calm down, mate. It's only a game. and after that minute I knew I had lost it because I had just shown them that I was a complete amateur and you have to keep that trust and that is that's the one thing I also the other thing I would say is the accountability of referees, we have this illusion that referees aren't

accountable but you speak to any of them when they make a mistake they won't get appointments in the UAFA I spoke to Tom Henning Overb who famously obviously in 19, what 2009 was it, made those three bad decisions in Chelsea versus Barcelona never refereed again at a high level

I mean they can end career if you make and make a bad decision. So the accountability is definitely one of the things that we fail to misunderstand. William, thank you very much indeed. That has made for a terrific half hour. That is William Ralston in his book, The Impossible Job About the Pressures of Elite Refereen. Chris, thank you. Charlie, thank you very much indeed. See you soon.

And Rory, thank you. Pleasure, thank you. As always. Wayne Rooney here. If you want to hear more from me, head over to the Wayne Rooney Show. on BBC Sounds today to listen back to chat I have with the likes of Bruno Fernandez and Jordan Pickford and plenty more stories from the dressing room. Before I saw you guys playing so many times and I was following the club for so long.

Just coming to the club was already a dream come through, a privilege, never thought, dreamed about being the captain of the club. I just wanted to play for it. Portugal has given me two ways later to football. In search the Wayne Rooney show on BBC Sounds and subscribe now. That way when my new series Can You Beat Wayne Rooney comes out, you'll be the first to get every episode as soon as they'll released it. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students, he's trying to silence.

If this is leaked to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets, catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app. or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.