Football Daily - The Commentators’ View: Coconut flat whites & ‘verticality’

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

John Murray and Ian Dennis are joined by Jacqui Oatley to lift the lid on life behind the microphone. Jacqui reveals how she got into football media and the pressure that came with being the first female commentator. Jacqui takes on John in a one-off Clash of the Commentators exhibition match. Will any of Jacqui’s Americanisms make the Great Glossary of Football Commentary? And rugby union correspondent Chris Jones joins the pod to talk about commentating at the Six Nations.04:45 How Jacqui got into football media? 11:40 Facing pressure as a female commentator 19:10 Clash of the Commentators 25:00 Americanisms for the Great Glossary? 37:20 Rugby’s Chris Jones joins the podBBC Sounds / 5 Live FA Cup commentaries this weekend: Fri 7 Feb 2000 Man Utd v Leicester, Sat 8 Feb 1215 Leyton Orient v Man City, Sat 8 Feb 1215 Leeds v Millwall on 5 Sports Extra, Sat 8 Feb 1500 Wigan v Fulham, Sat 8 Feb 1500 Everton v Bournemouth on the BBC Sport website, Sat 8 Feb 1745 Birmingham v Newcastle starting on 5 Sports Extra, Sat 8 Feb 2000 Brighton & Hove v Chelsea, Sun 9 Feb 1230 Blackburn v Wolves, Sun 9 Feb 1735 Aston Villa v Tottenham Mon 10 Feb 1945 Doncaster v Crystal Palace.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcast. The Commentator's View on the Football Daily Podcast. BBC Radio 5 Live. And I won't read the bit where it says, hello, I'm Ian Dennis, OK? Do it, Anchorman. OK, here we go. Hello, I'm John Murray.

This is The Commentator's View, where we lift the lid on life as five live commentators. There is no Alistair Bruce Ball this week for the first time, because he's too busy celebrating going top of the table in last week's Clash of the Commentators. So with us today, as usual, our senior football reporter, Mr Ian Dennis. Hello to you, Ian. Hello, John. And also. Hello to you, Ian. Hello, John. And also...

Hello to our special guest. We have a special guest. A special, special guest. It is Jackie Oatley, MBE, who has stepped into the breach. How nice to have you with us. Oh, do you know what? It's so lovely. It feels like the olden days when we were at a Five Live Christmas party or something,

having a catch-up on the craziness of the year that's just gone. We did that very thing before Christmas, didn't we? And we had a late night chat and I thought, oh, you'd be excellent. Next time Ali or Ian's not doing it, I'm going to suggest that you come on. So we're very happy to have you here with us.

I don't have fond memories of those Christmas parties, Jackie, because that was the day that John and Ali contrived to cut at one of my jumpers. that you come on. So we're very happy to have you here with us. I don't have fond memories of those Christmas parties, Jackie, because that was the day that John and Ali contrived to cut at one of my, one of my jumpers. I'm not sure that you recall. I'm not sure that's one foot on air. Do you remember that? Wasn't Steve Froggatt? Steve Froggatt was involved in that and you were not happy.

I'd never seen you that unhappy at all. Proper footballer stuff that wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Anyway, let's draw a veil over that for the time being maybe we'll do that in the 732nd one of these that we do so this is the 11th one uh and and jackie are you okay because i i'm told that you're recovering from the darts lurgy what's that the darts lurgy is when you're working at the dance for a few days which

is absolutely wonderful but i think it's just all the germs flying around that auditorium when you're in there for 12 hours a day and you know you're concentrating for 12 hours solid on stats and facts and lots of different screens and not getting much daylight and probably not as many nutrients as you should though i did order a couple of salads it should be said and yeah i'm trying to keep the cold away from this podcast because no one wants to hear that. But yeah, on the mend. Generally, we talk football commentary on this podcast. But in actual fact, on this one,

we're going to have Chris Jones joining us a little later on, our Rugby Union correspondent. And as you mentioned it, Jackie, talking about the darts, how do you cope with, do you deal with the mathematics side of things? No, because I don't commentate on darts. I present for ITV. So that is different.

So you don't have to go anywhere near that? No, so I don't have to call who's going to do what and which route they go. And oh, he's gone that route or he's miscounted. I leave that to Stuart Pike, John Rawling, one of our old colleagues. Ned Bolting does some commentary on there as well. And Dan Dawson of various tournaments. So they do the nuts and bolts of that. And I i have i link in between and then i open the show and then i have the pundits and ask them the questions and and i love doing that on the darts i love asking the questions because darts is such a fabulous sport it is so entertaining as more and

more people are realizing now but asking the questions about the psychology about why a player has done this why he's so much better this year after spending 20 minutes with a psychologist who just put him straight on something as gowan price said he did so um yeah asking the questions of the pundits why the players have done what they've done or haven't done um and having a real laugh with it to be honest because it's it's not it's not the most serious subject in the world but it is for the players but it's great fun to do if you did do the darts commentary going back to john's question how would you cope with the maths well that's the thing if you talk to darts people about it they say it's not maths it's learning combinations so from an early age

and we had a 12 and 13 year old in the jdc junior final before the main event on sunday and you're looking at these kids it's 12 and 13 year old 13 year old won it but he looks about half the age of luke littler who's just turned 18 who won it a couple of years ago and they look so tiny and wiry and you think how can their maths be good enough? But because these guys have been throwing darts since 18 months, two years, in the case of Luke Littler, they learn the combinations early on. So they're not standing there going, oh, what's 130 minus 23? They're not really doing that because they've done it over and over and over. And it's second nature to them. So less of darts, more of football, Jackie, because as we know, but for those who don't know, you were the first woman to commentate on football on British Network Radio in 2005 at the Women's Euros.

You have worked now for, I think, quite a while for a whole host of broadcasters, including the Americans for Fox Sport in America. So just reflect on both of those things, going back to where it all started, but also where it is now. Well, when I changed career in my late 20s, my goal was to work for Five Live. That was my ultimate ambition. And I was hoping to do it before I was 30. And tell people what you did. Oh, so I was an intellectual property account manager before that. I fell into that as a result of having a German degree and traveling around the world for a year and not having a clue what I was going to do. Like lots of students and people who travel

and you think, oh, I'm sure I'll fall into something. And I fell into intellectual property. And then fast forward, I went to watch my football team play all over the country every Saturday. And I played every Sunday for my team in the Greater London League and then injured my knee badly playing football and when I was told I couldn't play anymore I had this thing in the back of my mind about radio and football and oh there's just this nagging thing for years that when you're paying rent in London and living quite a nice life and having a good income, that you kind of think, how do I jump off that ladder and start at the very bottom of a ladder that I do want to be on without having any contacts, didn't know anyone who did it. So it was quite a big leap of faith, but I just came to the conclusion that if I just

resign, this is fast forwarding past my knee injury that I sadly suffered with a dislocated kneecap and I was on crutches 10 months and I couldn't um play ever again or do any kind of twisty turny sports like tennis or running or anything at all and I ended up at another another job that I didn't want to do in intellectual property and I thought if I just give that up and sleep on friends floors for a summer you know for a week at a time here and there, do full-time work experience, which I managed to get and just work my way into a day here, a day there at Haters News Agency, at BBC WM. And I thought, this is definitely what I want to do. But the only way that I could take that leap from working in London and living and paying rent to starting again was to not have any rent to pay and not having a job so I had the time to do it so that's

what I did and I ended up doing full-time work experience and sleeping on friends floors and decided I wanted to do it properly I wanted to learn properly and so as well as doing evening courses in print journalism for six months as well as doing radio production courses for six months I then resigned and did full-time work experience and applied to go to Sheffield Hallam University to do a post-grad because by the time I applied, it was the only one that had any places left. And thank goodness I did. It was a last minute decision. And as soon as I got there, I thought, right, I'm free now to just purely focus on getting into this industry. And that's when I wrote to all the local BBC stations in Yorkshire and fortunately for me

BBC Leeds wrote me a letter back and said I could have two days in TV news and that was my break getting in the front door collaring Derm Tanner who I know Ian knows very well as being the sports editor and I went up to him and I said I'm so keen to do radio sport is there any way that I could just come and see you and they had no one to do the non-league football at the time. And he asked if I was interested. I was like, oh yeah. And ended up doing voice tests, trying out for him and doing a 10 minute,

15 minutes lot on a Saturday on the non-league football on BBC Radio Leeds for a few months while I was doing my post-grad. And just ended up working my way up from there, just freelancing, freelancing, freelancing for anyone that would have me, a shift here, a shift there, and ended up somehow with you lot on Five Live, which is where I ultimately wanted to be. You know, when Jackie said that she sent letters

to every station in Yorkshire, that's what I did. I mean, I actually bombarded. I went further afield. I went into Lancashire as well. I would just want to go anywhere. Push the boat out. Yeah, but for a young lad growing up in Yorkshire, that was a thing.

That was a faraway place. It certainly was. Over the Pennines. It was the dark side. But I think that now there's probably more opportunities for a commentator faced with that dilemma, whereas Jackie, which would have been over 20 years ago, there probably wasn't as many opportunities as there are now for a wannabe commentator.

So that was probably a bold move in what, 2003? And there are other opportunities with online commentaries, with betting companies now where, you know, you can sit in a booth and commentate on a few games a day as some people do. But whether the pay is there, the job satisfaction as such. And freelancing people don't really talk about as much. I'm freelance. We really don't talk about that much, but I think staff jobs and certainly at your level are pretty difficult to come by, that's for sure. I still think that that is a route where you could send out letters or emails to your local radio station, your hospital radio, just to get that experience, you know, or indeed your local football club and say could i be a commentator because now so many non-league clubs do actually have their

own in in-house commentators so again that didn't exist uh back in the day so i do think those letters that approach could work and then also that the words that john motson told me about when i sent him a letter in 1988 determination and enthusiasm are the two biggest attributes you require. I still think those qualities in any young individual looking to get into commentary still apply. Best friend, Jackie, I think it's attitude. I think if you've got a good attitude. Women's football as well.

A lot of clubs now have women's teams, but don't necessarily have a commentator. So you kind of need to get the air miles, first of all, a great opportunity to do that. I mean mean when I got my first air miles it was on BBC Radio Leeds Wakefield and Emily against Works Optown and I was utterly terrified. I was going to say do you remember do you remember what do you remember about it? Being utterly terrified. Did you feel did you feel an additional pressure because you were a woman commentating on men's football? Well, only about an extra two tons of pressure.

Not much more than that. Oh, yeah, 100%. You've had that all the way along, though, haven't you? And listen, I know, because you were very much the pioneer of women in football commentary. Whereas, you know, there were pioneers who'd gone before in written journalism, of course, and of course with us as well, people like Eleanor Aldroyd, Charlotte Nicol,

who we've worked with, you know, people on the production side as well, which was still quite rare, really, in those days when I was coming through, you know, people like Joanne Watson and Audrey Adams, who we worked with. But to take that step into football commentary. Yeah, I can't pretend it was easy.

Definitely not. But I was fortified by the fact that I felt that I should give it a go, at least, certainly in local radio, because, and you guys know me pretty well. I think you know what a football weirdo, obsessive I am. And it's consumed my every waking moment pretty much since I accidentally flicked on a television match however many

decades ago and games on tv and that was the sport for me and since then I've been a complete and utter obsessive weirdo nerd lunatic football just takes up my every waking minute. It just has done all this time. And so I knew I had the knowledge. I knew I was taking every step. So from scratch, so from hospital radio, so from radio production courses, from work experience, from a one year postgrad, from learning how to switch on a microphone to ask a question, to how to edit. I knew I was taking every single step up the ladder from non-league football and local radio up to national radio.

But there was still that excessive, huge weight on my shoulders that came from, for example, that first night that I did that game, which was very short notice because I'd done the breakfast show sport for BBC Radio Leeds that morning. And another commentary fell by the wayside due to the lovely Yorkshire weather. And Derm Tanner said, would you like to do a commentary, which

I'd been asking him to do for a while, very politely. And oh, my heart just raced. And it was probably the hardest commentary I've ever done. Plus, and if I'm being completely honest about it, the guy that I was being thrown to down the line was, shall we say old school and leave it at that. So I felt already kind of like, who's this little woman in the commentary box and what would she know type of thing. So, and I also felt I couldn't do my best job because I didn't know who these players were. There wasn't the information on the internet these days of non-league football this was like 20 something years ago nowhere near and I showed up with a club captain luckily who was injured and sat with me in a terrible commentary position low down in the far corner of one end of the stands and I just have an image a snapshot of all the action being up the other end all the players seem to have short brown

hair and be about 5 11 so player identification torture. And then if we fast forward from that through to other commentaries, to national radio, which was my first, was the women's Euros. Again, hardly any information online on the Finland women's national team. Literally, virtually nothing at all.

There was no YouTube and videos and trying to identify players. I just remember being the bane of my life but then there was the kind of oh it's women's football it's okay to have a woman commentate on that and then I went on to do loads more on on Five Live Sports Extra and then Five Live and then later Match of the Day. I remember I can still picture it now it was when I was living in Ealing at the time so this would be back in the 90s. I remember going downstairs, the paper had been delivered through the door.

I picked it up. You were on the front page of the paper, the front page picture in the paper. And this was, this is going to be the first woman who's going to commentate on Match of the Day. Talk about pressure. You texted me about it. It was the guard.

I didn't know about it. It was the Guardian. And it had a picture of my boat race saying, is football ready for Jackie Oatley? And you texted me about it it was the guard I didn't know about it was the guardian and it had a picture of my boat race saying is football ready for Jackie Oatley and you texted me going what on earth is going on that game that was at Fulham wasn't it for the match of the day to do your first game for match of the day is a big deal anyway but then to do it with the scrutiny in in that public glare that you were in must have been added pressure oh it was it was hideous because unfortunately the news had broken in the mail on the Tuesday and then on the Wednesday the mail did a huge huge piece on should she be allowed to

shouldn't she and they managed to get a couple of old gentlemen from the world of football shall we say who said it was completely wrong and everyone in football's against it. And she'll have a voice like a fire siren and she's not John Motsen and all this stuff. And so that really stoked the sexism debate rather than, oh, we've just got the first woman to do X, Y, and Z. It was the sexism debate that meant my phone didn't stop. My emails didn't stop. And I had the old Yahoo messenger going, every three seconds asking for interviews. stupidly I replied to all of them really politely saying thanks very much but I'm not keen to do any interviews at all to add any fuel to the fire instead of just switching everything off and just doing my prep which is

what I should have done and I didn't and my prep got truncated and truncated and it came to the night before and I had to ring Mark Crossley who I'd done commentaries with who was on the coaching staff at Fulham I was like can you just give me the team this is crazy and I just I just got through it but completely massively underprepared because I hadn't really had the headspace all the time to just sit and do my notes like any other commentator would but it is what it is it was what it was on. I survived. I'm still going 20 plus years later. And there we go. That's it, isn't it? It's an experience. It's an experience. And you you grow from those experiences, as they say. Yeah, I think somebody had to do it. And if it was going to happen, somebody had to do it.

I don't mind it being me because I'm quite a strong character. I don't mind. It wasn't nice. But the next one I did, no one batted an eyelid. So it was just a case of getting past that first one and the cameras being on you instead of the pitch, which was horrid for me because I just did not want to be the story. We all learn when we do our journalism courses, don't become the story. And I had no intention of it. And I turned down all the celebrity shows and everything that came with it. I wasn't after the profile. People kill for profile. I wasn't after that. I just wanted to be a journalist and a football commentator. And I just got my head down and just cracked on and just carried on working. And I've enjoyed it ever since. Done a load of presenting over the years as well. I'm very much back in commentary all over the place now. And I just feel calm now. I feel like I belong now.

I feel happy now. I don't get hate tweets about being a female anymore. I just try and do the best job I can, which is what I've always done. But now with the benefit of experience and hindsight, I feel a lot more confident and competent, shall we say, at the same time. Well, thanks for coming on and telling the story again.

I'm sure a lot of people will have not heard it before, but I know that you'll have told it many, many, many, many, many times and always be asked about it. So, you know, we do appreciate it, Jackie. And I'm also keen as well to hear some of your experiences about commentating in America. And I think we're going to make that part of the great glossary of football commentary as we as we do every week but before that and before chris jones as well later it is time ian for clash of the commentators which fills me with dread after the last couple of ones of those that we've done the saudi pro league last week was a new low for me which means that it's Ali four from six John three from six and I'm two from six but because we've got Jackie with us and it's FA Cup weekend we're going to have a break from the league and we're going to get Jackie involved in a one-off exhibition match so Jackie we're going to give you the choice of who you would like to face would you like to face John or would you like to face myself?

And I'll point out that I got in to bed after half past one this morning after getting back from Anfield last night. What time did you go to bed, Dan? I was in bed before that, I think. Yes. I'll go big John. I'll go big John. So an opportunity for redemption, I think. Yes. I'll go Big John. I'll go Big John. So an opportunity

for redemption, John. You could put it that way or an opportunity to embarrass myself again, probably more likely. Well, Nathan, our producer, has sent me the quiz sheet over in a flash.

And I'm now going to give you a category and you'll have to give as many fitting answers as you can within 30 seconds. But who wants to go first? Well jackie you you've got the choice as our special guest you are on he normally doesn't do that you go first big john all right okay okay so jackie is disconnected so we're ready to go and this week's category has been submitted by jack oh it's fa cup fourth round

weekend with one of the standout ties league one late norient versus premier league champions manchester city i want you to name as many english football club suffixes as you can your time starts So like Orient, Wednesday, Alexandra, United City, Rovers, Athletic, Town, County, Argyle, Hove Albion, Albion. uh whole valbian uh albion that was very impressive thank you very much with about five hours sleep right i'm now going into the soundproof booth aren't i well you don't need to you just need to no that's okay good point okay good point you're absolutely on it this morning. I am. I am.

I think I'm in my element when I'm the quiz master. Do you want to know how many John got, Jackie? I'd say no. Oh, no. You've done really well. Well, okay. Not necessarily. So here we go, Jackie.

This week's category has been submitted by Jack. You've got 30 seconds. It's FA Cup fourth round weekend. And one of the standout ties, we have indeed commentary on it on Five Live. Leighton Orient versus Manchester City. But I want you to name as many English football club suffixes as you can. Your time starts now. United City, Wanderers, Albion, Argyle.

Rovers. County. Town. This could be tight. Right, the scores are in. Oh, that's quick. John, you got 11. Oh, I didn't get that many.

Jackie, you got eight. Oh. Who's so nice? I feel terrible now. There was 19 on the list for the top four divisions, but there were more in non-league. If you think of Solihull Moors, Kidderminster Harriers, Farsley Celtic,

as Jackie would know there, Tombridge Angels. But in the top four divisions, you had Albion, Alexandra, Argyle, Athletic, City, County, the top four divisions, you had Albion, Alexandra, Argyle, Athletic, City County, Dons, Forest,

Hotspur, Orient, North End, Rangers, Rovers, Stanley Town, United Villa, Wanderers, and Wednesday. It's a redemption, John. Thank you very much. If that's an exhibition match, do I not get a point for that? No, it counts for nothing

towards the league table. It was an exhibition game, which was, that was explained at the start. It was. Do you know, stupidly, I wasn't thinking of the non-league. I was just thinking EFL

and the obvious ones. It didn't occur to me to think of the non-league, even though, of course, it's all the non-league ones. Well done, Big John. Well, that was more up my street than the previous two that I've done,

as was very obvious. But there we are. No, I'm flushed now. Jackie, I'm flushed with success. Alexandra. The Football Daily Podcast. On BBC Sounds. In focus.

On the Football Daily every Saturday. Catch the biggest names from the Premier League and beyond as they share all with nothing off limits. We are here to speak to Arsenal's Riccardo Calafiori. Ruben Amorim, welcome to the Football Daily. When I heard this invitation, I felt that I had to do this. Rodri, that was incredible. Thank you for having me here. In focus only on the Football Daily.

Listen on BBC Sounds. The Commentator's View on the Football Daily Podcast. BBC Radio 5 Live. Jackie, let's go

back to, as I say, we're going to mention this in sort of kind of in relation to the great glossary of football commentary, which is where every week we build up a collection of football terms related to football

commentary so um you know anyone who wants to contribute to that and and on anything else actually we will be very pleased to hear from you the email address the special email address that we have is tcv at bbc.co.uk but working with the americans jackie you must have a whole load of americanisms well yes i first worked with them qatar 2022 field is the main thing that i still say now and i try not to say too much it's not a big deal it's just instead of pitch but they say field a lot more you know field is one that I actually wouldn't even have thought of that that they actually refer to it as to be you know for all of the people you know everyone who says the terminology of of American soccer field is one that presumably has come from American football yeah they all say field you

don't hear pitch anywhere near as much as you do here so i have to remind myself when i'm doing games here to say pitch because that's the one i have really picked up we say the field of play don't we but otherwise it's always the pitch pushed him back onto the pitch or pushed him off the pitch how much have you actually commentated over in america so for the last two years i've been going over there so the year before last for the last two years I've been going over there so the year before last for the NWSL which is the equivalent of the WSL but it's a huge country so it's all over the place so I the year before last I was mostly going to Fort Lauderdale in Florida which is where they have their hub which is a bit like Stockley Park where they have a lot of

booths loads and loads and loads of booths. Stockley Park, but it's in Florida. It's in Florida. So unfortunately it wasn't Uxbridge. I would be in Florida over a couple of weekends doing multiple games in booths. So you could do more than one a day, for example, because the games are at different times. And then I'd be there during the week doing my prep on Fort Lauderdale Beach, using the Starbucks Wi-Fifi outside wondering where it all

went wrong and dreaming my days of osset albion and farsley celtic but no it was an experience it really was and then the cbs games would always be on site so then those games i'd go there and then last year so the 2024 season i didn't do any of the florida off tube games as we call it calling games off a tv screen they They were all on site. So I'd fly over for one game. And it was quite often in Kansas City. A lot of games in Red Bull Arena, the Gotham team who won the league a couple of years ago, and Washington DC, which is a brilliant club, Washington Spirit, and just various other places really. But it was, yeah. So totally Pan-American.

So I did one in Houstonston the year before the final was in san diego so in november the final was in glorious sunshine san diego what a place it is beautiful if you ever get a chance to go but it is pricey my word yeah and there in florida it cost me 10 pounds for a coconut flat white from starbucks and they asked for a tip at the till by the way whether they're smiley or not how much does it cost you and when10 for a coconut flat white from Starbucks. And they asked for a tip at the till, by the way, whether they're smiley or not. How much does it cost you? And when you buy a coconut flat white,

how much does that cost you? Probably a similar price. And I don't have a problem with tipping either. I think it's 20% they tip over in the States. It is. By the way, that puts some of your, you know, when you moan about having to drive to Bournemouth and Crystal Palace. Yeah, but when Jackie's talking of travel, she's not driving.

Well, that is a good point. We had an email from an avid listener, John, and anybody can contact us by tcv at bbc.co.uk. He said, recently Fulham played in a gorgeous shade of purple, which was complemented by the black and white stripes of Newcastle. The combination was veryed by the black and white stripes of Newcastle the combination was very pleasing on the eye are there any particular color combinations that work for you and the reason I mentioned that Jackie is that I went to watch a game actually in it was an MLS game in

Orlando and they were wearing a vibrant purple you'd get some really good color combinations I would imagine in the States yeah I think go back to San Diego. They have stunning combinations. They have white, pink and turquoise. And because they're called San Diego Wave, that whole vibe of wave seaside, they have beautiful kit. There are quite a few kits that are black, which I don't really understand why home kits would choose to be black necessarily but I remember

doing one commentary and I do my player lineups on an iPad with a digital pen and I've been doing that for a couple of years and it really works so it means before you go to a game you do your commentary lineups your you know goalkeeper your back four your defensive two your three whatever it is before you go and I do them in the colour of the team that they're likely to be wearing the kit. So I try and find out in advance what kit they're wearing. So anyway, there was a couple of teams, one was wearing black and one was wearing a mint colour. And I hadn't been able to find out in advance which they were wearing. So I'd written out my teams, but they were playing in the reverse colours. And it absolutely fried my brain for the entire

game it sounds ridiculous but because I was so used to thinking of I think it was Gotham I'm used to thinking of as being mint but they were playing black but I think of them as that anyway they played the opposite and it just really really bothered me the whole way through so and I also did my first WSL commentary for Sky as West Ham against Aston Villa yeah do you know what I was just going to mention that I've I've covered West against Aston Villa. Yeah, do you know what? I was just going to mention that. I've covered West Ham, Aston Villa, home and away this season, and it's happened to me in the past before.

And you're absolutely right. That Clareton Blue thing really makes your mind go fuzzy. I thought you were going to say, Jackie talking about the blacks, the all blacks, brings us on to our other special guest. Well, that would have been a great link link we're not quite ready for him yet so hold your horses because we've got a couple of other pieces of correspondence from america uh ian if you go for the one from colorado i'll mention this one this is from brock in atlanta who says well thank you brock this has

become my favorite podcast brackets and i listen to a lot of football podcasts. Growing up in the States, the two main commentators I was brought up on were Ian Dark and Martin Tyler. I noticed they would sometimes call a goal that was neatly put away as a clinical finish. And Brock says that terminology became a part of my football vocabulary, which caused confusion among my American friends because the word clinical is typically used in medical language.

What do you guys think this has got to go in the glossary, right? Clinical finish? Yes, I would think so. In fact, I think I used it in midweek with the ESAC goal that was disallowed for Newcastle against Arsenal. Yeah, by the way, just when you mentioned it, what a night that was. Oh, great Arsenal. Yeah. By the way, just when you mention it, what a night that was. Oh, great noise.

Yeah. Listen, as you know, I've got a bit of a history with Newcastle United because I covered them in the late 90s for local radio, BBC Newcastle. So I've been to St James' many times. But the atmosphere pre-match, some 10 minutes before kick-off, when the black and white flags and the scars, it was spine-tingling. And the saxophone solo was a real stroke of genius, I thought.

Yeah, playing Local Hero. Local Hero, yeah. You can actually listen back to that on BBC Sounds because there was a time where Steve Crossman just let the atmosphere breathe. You can go back and listen to it if you missed it. Yeah, do. And again again because quite

often people will say to me how do you do that and it is bbc sounds go to the front page of bbc sounds stations and schedules is what you're looking for a sort of oblong box click on that then you'll see all of the dates you go into the day of that match which was last wednesday night and then find the time and you can listen to it again and it is it's well worth doing that it reminded me very much of the paris saint-germain game last season which which i was at in terms of atmosphere and you know the champions yeah the everything that went with it so anyway yes uh back to colorado yes so sarah from colorado says hello tcv crew thank you so much for this podcast.

Which is something we've never called ourselves. Well, we might go down as a crew of commentators. Well, that's a good point. It is one small thing that regularly distracts me from the craziness of life in the US right now. As an American, I had to begin compiling my own glossary of terms in order to fully understand what was being said when listening to football over here in the States. So here are some of my favourites I'd like to suggest for the glossary.

Purple Patch, Surprise Package, Banana Skin and Bogey Team. And I'd like to make one final contribution and suggest Lasagna Gate as a match with its own name. Thanks again so much for the pod sarah in colorado are they going in i think so don't you purple patch surprise package banana skin yeah bogey team all been used in the past yeah very much so and um while we're doing the glossary uh we've had a couple of pieces of correspondence from colleagues of ours uh long long long time colleague gary richardson 50 years at the bbc and he says in the 70s and 80s football commentators on radio 2 as it used to be would always say when describing the team's kit chelsea are wearing blue shirts blue shorts and white stockings and socks were

always called stockings and have you ever called socks stockings and I remember when I started out I remember Alan Green Ron Jones would refer to stockings and that went out in my time stockings which have now very much socks but in terms of the glossary Gary says how about the phrase two nil is a dangerous score, which was used this very week, Ian. In the build-up to Newcastle against Arsenal. And Eddie Howe said it will only be dangerous if we don't perform. As it turned out, it wasn't dangerous at all. It was not.

But as Gary says, how come 2-0 is a dangerous score, but 4-2 and 5-3, even though it's a two-goal difference, is never described as a dangerous score. And also, Gary says the phrase about when a team has had a player sent off. So United are down to 10 men, but sometimes it's harder to play against 10 men, which is very much a phrase that is used. I can't believe that you've gone and skirted past my link because he's been waiting patiently. And I know you like to keep people waiting, John, but you know,

I still hope that that link about the all blacks can, can remain and not be edited out because it was a very good one 10 minutes ago. It was, it was a very good one, but I just want to mention as well, because I've teed it up and one final entry to the glossary this week from Phil,

why our longtime former producer, but now about to return to the scene, which we're very much looking forward to. Phil says the phrase part and parcel is something that you would never use in any other walk of life, even if you're a postman, probably. But it very much appears in football commentaries. Can I just jump in with one? I've just remembered from America that I've never heard here, but maybe I've just not heard it. And maybe people have been saying it and it's just not been on my radar, but a colleague of mine says it a lot. And I've since heard it in other football commentaries in the U S. Verticality.

What? Verticality. Verticality. Yeah. They use it a lot. Verticality. Verticality. Yeah, they use it a lot. Verticality. In what context? So if you've got a striker who's holding up the ball

and the team are going direct to them, or you've got a focal point, basically means a focal point, but they use it a lot. Laurie Lindsay, my co-con, I tease her all the time because she says they had a lot of verticality in that game with Sophia Smith playing as opposed to Notsmack playing for Portland Thorns. Yeah, have you heard it?

I haven't heard it, and at the minute, it's not getting in. Oh, brutal. There are a few of those sort of phrases, aren't there, that when you hear, I'll hear them if I go and cover the golf in America or with American journalists. Sometimes there'll be one thrown in that you think, what was that?

PKs. PKs is just, I mean, I love the Americans. I love everything. I love working with the PKs. I do rip my popcorn about. The old Nelsons. Nelson PKs. You know our next special guest?

Yes, our next special guest. He's just celebrated his 40th birthday. Let's move on. He's now turned 41 you've kept him waiting that long happy 41st birthday christian thank you very much not much verticality here more horizontal yeah horizontality well that's when you saw my clinical earlier what is clinicalness clinicality oh i've really struggled with that one because it's big in rugby, being clinical. It's huge in rugby.

You can do all you like with possession and territory, but who's clinical? Who scores when they get their opportunities? But I've never found out how to say they showed clinical. They were clinical, but I can't. Clinicality, clinicalness. Chris, you will be a very welcome addition to this week's The Commentator's View

because we had an email from another John who says, Dear all, as a big lover of all things football, I've thoroughly enjoyed listening to you take us behind the mic and provide a glimpse into the world of commentary. I consider myself a full-time football fanatic and part-time fan of most other major sports

when there's seasonal coverage across the BBC, be it the tennis Grand Slams, the Test cricket season or topically the Six Nations, to name a few. I've therefore especially liked the snippets which have referenced other sports, such as the low commentary position at Wimbledon, hushed tones at the golf and the chaos of covering the Olympics. This got me thinking if there could be scope to have the occasional guest feature on the podcast from other sports maybe in weeks when my dentist's appointment clashes with the recording well it hasn't it hasn't worked command yeah it hasn't worked in that sense but in with ali not being here this week chris you have stepped very much

into the reach you are exactly what john wants to hear so how's that how's the six nations going so far you've got a hectic schedule at the moment yeah loads going on because we've got all the the match coverage and all the sort of build-up and it's not i suppose it's not like um a big football tour you get it in rugby world cups we get midweek matches but the nature of rugby there always has to be about six days between matches. It's not like in football where you guys are game, could be game Saturday, game Sunday, game Tuesday, game Wednesday, game Saturday.

Rugby, there are no midweek fixtures. So you always get the, you get this huge buildup for every game. You know, you get a constant media sessions, millions of podcasts, and then you actually get to the game. It's just the 80 minutes, but you feel like you've been

speaking about it for hours before and hours after. But really good so far. Great weekend in Dublin. You know, coming on here has really got me thinking about how lucky we are to go to all these great places

in the Six Nations. You know, you can't really name six better cities, can you, than London, Cardiff, Dublin, Edinburgh, Paris and Rome. Try and get to as many of them every year as possible. Slightly depends on the schedule really name six better cities can you than than london cardiff dublin edinburgh paris and rome try and get to as many of them every year as possible slightly depends on the schedule and fixtures and and covering england mainly um but yeah every every city is awesome every city's got its uh its incredible assets and one or two drawbacks but they're definitely more of the

former i know exactly what you're saying and i think we experience this don't we with uh with england um and and certainly at the tournament where the demands are so great around and you actually get to the most important bit in a you know as far as we're concerned which is actually commentating on the match and commenting on what happens and what influences what happens next after that and and very often you get to that point and and feel as though. Nil-nil halftime. Nothing's happened. I have this all the time. We had this on the Friday of Dublin and we said to each other, this is the best bit because we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

We're talking, we're trying to show all of our, you know, knowledge about tactics and selection and behind the scenes and speaking to them and speaking to them. We're trying to do all that. And then you know that the first half could just be scrum resets penalties couple of kicks oh mark chapman struggling to catch far here in dublin island six england six but the 24 hours before the four or five days before you just have no idea so often that's the most exciting part which is the which is the best we talk we've talked about this on here before about favorites grounds to

commentate on which which is the one that that you like about this on here before, about favourites, grounds to commentate on. Which is the one that you like more than anyone? And the other end of the scale as well. Yeah, because also you bring in everything around. The commentary position at Twickenham is the best. It's absolutely perfect. And I think this was probably the influence of my predecessor, Ian Robertson. But we have the best seat in the house at BBC Radio.

You know, the TV are a little bit to the left the other side of the cameras they're not exactly on the halfway line but I think thanks to Robbo's influence we are on the halfway line you sit and you're down the barrel of the halfway line you're perched on over the top of the front of the middle tier over the top of the coaches you've got a great vantage point you're not too high but you can see all the replacements you can see everything pitch side You've got a great vantage point. You're not too high, but you can see all the replacements. You can see everything pitch side. You've got an amazing view. But Twickenham doesn't feel like a weekend away, a day away, because I don't live far away. And we don't have that feeling as a team like we do when we go to Dublin or Paris or Rome or wherever where you're sort of traveling and you're really soaking up the atmosphere

either side of the game. So Twickenham has its assets from a sort of strictly professional point of view because the commentary place is great. The only draw game so Twickenham has its assets from a sort of a strictly professional point of view because the commentary place is great the only drawback with Twickenham is that we don't have a toilet so if you had to go to the toilet at half time you're in with all of the supporters so you're queuing up which is a non-starter well well you and then you're completely torn and this also applies to getting post-match interviews because in in places like Dublin and Twickenham you've got to battle through the crowds to get down and sometimes you've got to be really quick to get down and there are other places where you can just shoot down in a lift and you're there pitch side before the coaches are ready but sometimes you've actually got to battle through the crowds or in Dublin's case battle with this lift that

takes forever and Twickenham once you can get through the crowd it's pretty quick but you have this awkward situation. You're standing there with a microphone. You're surrounded by 10,000 people. Well, there's 80,000 in the crowd, 10,000 in your section. And you're really torn about whether to go, excuse me, I've kind of got to get,

because I tried this in Dunedin in the summer. And I just got a volley of abuse from this local who'd had about 15 spates. And he was like, stop being such an arrogant. I would just say look i just wouldn't mind and he could see steve borthwick the other side of the ground looking at you where is he but i just finished commentating so every every crowd kind of throws up its logistical challenges but i think the great thing about the six six nations is you put them all into

kind of an algorithm where you can buy an atmosphere and and the proximity of the ground to the town and they all end up around about the same because they've all got really brilliant things going for them although i have had an episode in rome which i i wouldn't want to want to repeat again well you've now you've now got to tell us what happened in rome well this this goes back about 10 years and we had a situation where i was with rob jones former world scrub half great bloke really quality part of our team for so many years and it was me me and him on Sports Extra and Ian Carter was doing five live updates. But we didn't have a producer or what we call a BA broadcast listener or a journalist. We didn't have someone behind the scenes. It was just us three. And I needed to get Rob his pass. And so I'd done a bit for

five live. And then I say to Rob, well, let's meet outside the stadium. I'll give you your pass. In you come, we'll go and do the commentary. timings are slipping and Rob's been with some friends and I go out to try and find him and I cannot find him before whatsapp so he didn't have like a location he kept saying I've got him on the phone once or twice and I'm outside the ground I couldn't and kickoff was getting closer and I still can't find Rob it gets the point that I've the other side of the ground from where he is and I'm in the national park that is next to the Olympic this Stadio Olimpico in Rome and I am close to tears because the anthems are about to start and Rob and we he isn't turning his location on or he

hasn't got his data roaming on so we can't text location and I'm just thinking I'm never going to find him it's such a difficult ground to find people because it's olympic stadiums it's got some huge concourse and eventually rob got in because his mate had a spare ticket and we got up during the anthems and ian carter is standing there going where on earth have you been so we made it in the end but it was the low i can't the exasperation that That has always tainted Rome for me because I've never felt so helpless as I have when you simply cannot find your summariser and you think, I never will.

I think I'll still be looking for him now. Oh, that is pretty stressful. Chris, when you're talking about toilet nightmares, I've got flashbacks to Goodison Park. I think it was last season. Doing the PLP Sky commentary for the World Feed at three o'clock on a Saturday afternoon. And I hadn't done it from that position before. And I'd only done it from the press box where you're

kind of used to not having the best view necessarily and, you know, being squished up. Wonderful stadium. But I just remember going up there and thinking, oh, this is going to be a bit of a tight turnaround at halftime. Because when you you go up there's a door at the back of the stands where the fans are and you go through that door and out on the outside into the gantry and at half time I needed to go to the toilet so I said to Leon Osmond I'll be back in two ticks so I ventured out back down the steps through the crowd there was a queue and being British is real constraints hard isn't it it's hard to try or to suddenly go I've got a you can't it's so hard you just stand there watching time tick by don't you I was there with my watch and my phone like stressing and I was like oh there's just two

little toilets for us ladies in a big queue and I was like what do I do what do I do and I knew I should have gone guys I'm about to go back on air please please please can I jump in and I just couldn't so I waited and they were like oh it won't be long I was like okay anyway went to the toilet ran back out and I could see the door was locked and I was like oh where's the steward gone because previously there'd been a steward there to let me through and they were like oh it's locked you've got to find the steward I was like where's the steward and the players were coming out for the second half and I was doing the live commentary to the world I was like, where's the steward? And the players were coming out for the second half. And I was doing the live commentary to the world. I was like panicking. And I'm not a panicker.

But I was like, where's the steward? And the guy pointed out, this fan by the door who was so helpful, he went, she's down there at the front of the stand. And I was like, oh, my God. And I raced through the crowd. And I went to the other alleyway. And I ran downstairs and went, come out the key. Quick, please.

And she raced up the steps let me out and I raced out onto the gantry where Leon Osmond was sitting there bemused as they were literally about to kick off just as Everton score the stress the absolute stress of that feeling I know it's not you know brain surgery or anything that serious but yeah the stress levels at that moment when you're not going to make kickoff absolute stuff of commentators nightmares that isn't it reminds me of cardiff the principality stadium all the lifts have keys so we have a lift to get down and up and if the steward has wandered away no one's got a key and you're just helpless it's like has anyone got a key you're sort of grabbing random punters have you got a key if you were inventing it's like has anyone got a key you're sort of grabbing random punters

if you've got a key if you were inventing it all over again you wouldn't involve keys listen here's what here's one to tcv at bbc.co.uk which uh which applies to football rugby whatever we do this is from joseph who says this has always bothered me why when commentating on a match do you refer to the direction a team is kicking in and the colour kit they are wearing the listener cannot see what you are describing so why bother many thanks this will end a constant question I've asked myself for many years love the podcast great company on my daily cycle from palmer's green to tutang well ian well from my point of view i i always think of of a blind friend who when you're doing the commentary he's sadly no longer with us but i'm describing the game to him and therefore you've got to try

and close your eyes and envisage so if if say for instance who was it who was it who sent, Sir Joseph? If you think that the team are just attacking, you've got to try and think, well, are they attacking the Cot at Liverpool? Are they attacking the Cot at Ellen Road? Are they attacking the Stretford End at Old Trafford? I always think of envisaging myself listening to a game, and I want to know where the ball is. But if you say it's on the right hand side is it the right side which is the near side or the right side the far side and also the color just put it it's it's trying to describe the action to somebody who obviously can't see it it's one of the basic elements of radio commentary when you're first told what to do you talk about the color you talk

about the direction of play and you talk about the colour, you talk about the direction of play and you talk about the score. And those three things for me are one of the basic elements of any good radio commentary. Would you not agree? I remember when I just started commentating, I think it was Nick Mullins,

former colleague of ours, who's one of the top rugby union commentators in other sports on telly. And he said said really enjoyed listening to that game but you never said which direction the teams were going in and since that point I've really made a point of it because if you're definitely for any blind listeners and I've had loads of blind listeners get in touch who listen to the commentary and say they appreciate it but also you want to when you're listening to the radio you want to envisage

how a try might look from what you've seen whether at a game or on television so if you say left to right right to left it just paints the picture of what what it's look you know and you want to go if someone's saying what a brilliant goal it was or brilliant try you want to put into your head how you think it looks and i think that all helps to add to that. Chris, we kept you hanging on for long enough. And you are very, very busy at the moment. You've probably got at least two more podcasts. Well, my wife just asked how many podcasts. I said, I'm popping on a podcast this morning.

How many podcasts? I said, well, I think it's up to six. But then there's one after the game tomorrow. And then one on Sunday night. Slightly confusingly, i think this year the rugby union weekly is still being called the rugby union weekly even though it's down to searching i think it's so people who search for up in a week you still get rubbed you know weekly even though it's daily but it is uh has taken a bit of getting used to saying it's rubbing a weekly which is daily yeah i thought you were going to say when john asked how many podcasts i thought you might have said 40

fourth well maybe not this week yeah but that was i think mark chapman who as you guys both know is is never afraid to um just take to just need to have a little bit of a uh of fun he he came on air on saturday and said oh france france passed 40 last night and then at half time when he threw back to me he said uh well 40 minutes gone 40 to go yeah so we've got uh we've got some weekend haven't we in that italy wales is on sports extra correct yes yes italy wales sports extra then we have built up on sports extra of of england france and this is where it's great fun with denno on a saturday because denno will be doing the three o'clocks which run late now don't they denno you know used to be sort of 350 but now it's more sort of 355 58 um but then

it would be throwing to me well i'd be on sports extra and then denno does an unbelievable job at wrapping up the game he's just done because people have been listening to that for 90 minutes. They don't want to go straight off air. Denner gives that, you know, this ended 2-2. This is the headline, the consequence. Loads more to come. Here's the rugby commentary. So we managed to bounce around a lot, get as much of the rugby on as possible,

get all the three o'clocks, which is so huge for us on the network. So it's a really good, I think, few hours of listening for people, hopefully. And then who are're running into next it's me at birmingham city newcastle united and is that the three on saturday that is the 5 45 oh so it's brilliant though because we um you know you you're kind of you're on sports extra then you're throwing to the 5 30 while they're not dating five live listeners with the 5.30. And yeah, I think there's something for everyone on those kind of Saturday afternoons. And Sunday's match is on Five Live. And Sunday's match is on Five Live.

So yeah, often it's just how it works with the football and the kick-offs, but I think it's all worked out nicely this weekend. So it's going to be a good one. Chris, when I do a quick out to hand from the football to the rugby, that's John's way of saying he wants a quick out from the rugby match to the football. Yeah, exactly. Well, England have lost by 50. What does this mean?

We can't find out. It's John. Yeah. Chris, stop talking now and go and talk somewhere else. Go and talk somewhere else. That's what your podcast is for, exactly. Thank you. Thanks for joining us.

Cheers. Have a great weekend fa cup obviously this weekend as mentioned there are stacks of countries i can't honestly there are too many to list so manchester united leicester is the first one on friday night if you're listening to this uh on the friday and then, Leyton Orient, Manchester City, 12.15 kick-off. Coverage of all of the matches, Ian, you're going to be at? Wigan against Fulham. And obviously you're at St Andrews.

And how was your trip, by the way, last week? Because you did a scouting mission, didn't you? I did. And I hope we've just got time to mention this before we finish. You'll enjoy this, Jackie. So we talk often on here don't we about our lonely travel at the weekends so last weekend i went to birmingham city to have a recce which really whetted my appetite actually for um for going to st andrews this weekend because they were

incredibly welcoming there i haven't been there for decades and you know what it's like when you go to a place where you feel that things are beginning to happen and I wasn't necessarily expecting that but they're on this long unbeaten run Birmingham City and you know that that is definitely a place on the up and up so that was enjoyable and very very fruitful for for this weekend however I then was going to London to cover the Arsenal ManchesterManchester City match, which was extraordinary in itself. So I left my car in Leicester so I could drive home on Sunday night

and got the train down to London. And it was quite a busy train. It was the last train from Leicester to London. And I got on there and there was like, you know, it's packed, but there was a seat on a table of four but it was there were three people sitting there they turned out to be Tom, Sam and Alex who were playing a card game which they bought at the station so they they were they were former Nottingham University students as I later later discovered. And they'd been out, I think, with friends on a go-karting day.

And they bought this pack of cards, which was called something like Who Knows Who. It was one of those card games with questions on them. And this was Who Knows Who. And it's a game that was clearly designed to be played by people who knew each other very well. So I sat down next to them. They started playing this game and they could see that i'm interested and needless to say i didn't take much drawing into playing this game but this added a whole new aspect to a game that was supposed to be played by people who knew

each other very well but now i'm playing this game not knowing them at all and i tell you what there was that there's definitely a game show in there there is definitely a game show so there are questions here that you will be fascinated by like who's your favorite cartoon character who what's your favorite luxury brand what's your favorite dessert what's your favorite ice cream but also things like who's the cutest celebrity couple around? And also, who's your celebrity crush? Which provoked great amusement, trying to come up with answers for that. And what was your answer to your celebrity crush?

Well, I've worked with you long enough now to know that I will not be giving the answer to that. But what the others had to do was guess who your celebrity crush was. And Tom, Sam and Alex between them decided that my celebrity crush would be Kate Bush. And did that have you running up the hill? That tickled me greatly. What a brilliant game but you two should develop your own version of this quick fire kind of getting to know you sort of game for this pod that would be perfect yeah wouldn't it just jackie who would

your celebrity crush be well i think it would have to be bradley cooper which is a bit mainstream think of anybody else for years he's been the one in movies not that i watch many a bit of a michael irwin when it comes to movies i've barely watched any um right i think um we've done more than enough jackie it's been it's been great having you uh with us on here i'm sure we'll we'll do that again won't we in yes thank you i hope so as well oh it's been an absolute pleasure just like the olden days yes thanks both have. Have a good weekend. Yeah, do yourself a favour this week and listen to what is an extraordinary weekend of live commentary on Five Live, where we will have FA Cup commentaries

coming from all angles. We'll have the Six Nations. There's the Super Bowl as well, isn't there? Late on Sunday night. And then that rolls right into early next week, where we've got the Champions League massive games Ian

that you and I are going to be at Manchester City, Real Madrid and you're going to be at Celtic Bayern Munich. Yeah, I said on Wednesday night

that when we did the Newcastle Arsenal game it was the first of eight successive days of Cup football whether it be the League Cup, the FA Cup

or indeed as you say the Champions League. The next episode of the Football Daily will be a 72-plus special in focus with Birmingham City's Jay Stansfield, who was excellent last week, I must say, against Rotherham. And Ian, you, me, and Ali Bruce Ball

will be back next week with another episode of The Commentator's View. In the shadows of Glasgow, two crime families rose to power. You're either with the Daniel family or you're with the Lyons family. There's no in between. A brutal war for control of Glasgow's lucrative drug trade that still rages today. Police think it's the work of a criminal gang.

Join me, Livvy Haydock, as I investigate the battle that shattered the old school rules of crime. They're just terrorising people whatever they want. Gangster. The story of the Daniels and the Lions. Listen on BBC Sounds.