Football Daily - The Commentators’ View: John Helm & the magic sponge

Episode Date: April 24, 2026

Ian Dennis & Ali Bruce-Ball are joined by legendary commentator John Helm to talk football, their travels and the language of football commentary. John takes us through his career, from doing 10 World Cups, to being the in-house commentator at League One champions Lincoln City this season. There are more unintended pub names from sport commentary and suggestions for the Great Glossary of Football Commentary. Messages, questions and voicenotes welcome on WhatsApp to 08000 289 369 & emails to [e-mail]02:00 Welcome to the pod John Helm! 05:10 How did John end up at Lincoln City? 09:35 5 Live commentaries this weekend, 15:45 Liam Rosenior removed from Chelsea, 18:30 Can Leeds get to the FA Cup Final? 20:50 How many games has John commentated on? 25:45 John talks about doing different sports, 28:00 John’s World Cup Final dressing room moment, 30:00 John reflects on commentating on the Bradford fire, 36:10 Unintended pub names, 41:10 John does his record-breaking read of the 92, 45:25 Great Glossary of Football Commentary.5 Live / BBC Sounds commentaries: Sat 1200 Brighton & Hove v Man City in WSL on Sports Extra, Sat 1500 Wolves v Spurs, Sat 1500 West Ham v Everton on Sports Extra, Sat 1715 Man City v S’hampton in FA Cup on Sports Extra, Sat 1730 Arsenal v Newcastle, Sun 1200 Everton vs Chelsea in WSL, Sun 1530 Arsenal v Lyon in UWCL on Sports Extra, Sun 1500 Chelsea v Leeds in FA Cup.Great Glossary of Football Commentary: DIVISION ONE Agricultural challenge, Back of the net, Back to square one, Backside and elbows, Booked, Bosman, Bullet header, Channel of joy, Coupon buster, Cruyff Turn, Cultured/educated left foot, Dead-ball specialist, Draught excluder, Elastico/flip-flap, False nine, Fox in the box, Giving the goalkeeper the eyes, Grub hunter, Head tennis, Hibs it, In a good moment, In behind, Magic of the FA Cup, The Maradona, Off their line, Olimpico, Onion bag, Panenka, Park the bus, Perfect hat-trick, Postage stamp, Put his cap on it, Rabona, Roy of the Rovers stuff, Schmeichel-style, Scorpion kick, Spursy, Stick it in the mixer, Sweeper keeper, Taking it to the corner flag, Target man, Tiki-taka, Towering header, Trivela, Where the kookaburra sleeps, Where the owl sleeps, Where the spiders sleep. DIVISION TWO 2-0 can be a dangerous score, Asterisk, Back on the grass, Ball stays hit, Beaten all ends up, Blaze over the bar, Business end, Came down with snow on it, Catching practice, Camped in the opposition half, Cauldron atmosphere, Champagne is on ice, Coat is on a shoogly peg, Come back to haunt them, Corridor of uncertainty, Couldn’t sort their feet out, Early bath, Easy tap-in, Daisy-cutter, Drubbing, Finish with aplomb, First cab off the rank, Giant-killing, Goalkeepers’ Union, Good leave, Good touch for a big man, Half-turn, Has that in his locker, High wide and not very handsome, Hospital pass, Howler, In the dugout, In the hat, In their pocket, Johnny on the spot, Lackadaisical, Leading the line, Leather a shot, Magic sponge, Middle of the park, Needed no second invitation, Needing snookers, Nice headache to have, No-look pass, Nutmeg, On the beach, On their bike, One for the cameras, One for the purists, Piledriver*, Played us off the park, Points on the board, Points to the spot, Prawn sandwich brigade, Purple patch, Put their laces through it, Queensbury rules, Reaches for their pocket, Rolls Royce, Root and branch review, Row Z, Screamer, Seats on the plane, Sent into raptures, Show across the bows, Slide-rule pass, Squeaky-bum time, Staving off relegation, Steal a march, Sting the palms, Straight in the bread basket, Stramash, Taking one for the team, Telegraphed that pass, Tired legs, That’s great… (football), Thunderous strike, Turns on a sixpence, Walk it in, We’ve got a cup tie on our hands. We were right behind that.

The Commentator's View on the Football Daily with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis. Hello, it's The Football Daily. I'm Alistair Bruce Ball and this is the commentators view where we five live commentators talk about the football, the language of football commentary and our travels around the world. Speaking of which, John Murray, as he would say, is on assignment this week. It's been a while since John has missed the pod. But Ian Dennis is back from assignment. he's refreshed, rested, ready to go for the weekend. How are you, sir? I'm very well, although I had a few messages

because I hear that Michael Brown was causing mischief last week. One of my good friends, Colin, his wife, Leslie, texts me to say that you're getting currently battered on Five Live. I think battered is probably exaggerating. He, I mean, Michael was so this is, so Michael was with me in, so I was doing your job last Saturday, and I've, you know, I've basically had to cool my brain down in the fridge for two days after a game, you know,

three o'clock on Saturday, concentrating on your game, all the permutations, ups, downs and all of that. It's a great shift to do. But he was convinced that you would be listening. I wasn't listening. I was wandering the streets of the letter. Good. Oh, lovely. Lovely.

Have you been there before? I went there 21 years ago, only because I had to look it up when covered Northern Ireland. They played Malta in a pre-season friendly. and Mike Riley sent off one of, Mike Riley was the referee and he sent off one of the Northern Ireland players. It finished a 1-1 draw. I forget who he sent off.

And I actually was sat next to Mike Riley on the plane coming back to Heathrow. And that's how I got to know Mike Riley. Right. So no John Murray, but Ian Dennis is here. And I'm delighted to say with us on TCV today, we have a really special guest. Someone who is hugely respected and admired in the industry.

John and Ian know him extremely well, been rubbing shoulders together for many, many years. He's been commentating on football and plenty of other sports as well for the last 56 years, get that, working at World Cups and Olympics since the 1980s, and he's most recently been describing a fabulous season for Lincoln City as their in-house commentator.

Welcome to TCV, John Helm. John, how are you? Thank you very much. Shelly, a debut. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good, thank you. I'm trying to make another 56 years. I think I've got any chance?

Well, knowing you, John, yes. And I'm so enthusiastic. It's as though it was my first year. Yeah, I've enjoyed it so much. Well, I mean, that is brilliant to hear, John. My first question genuinely, and this is a genuine question, is where do you find the energy?

I'm so grateful for longevity. My father, he died in his 70s. My mum lived into her 90s, and I do try to keep myself there. As Denner knows, I tried to play golf, fully enough, on the night that Lincoln got promoted down at Reading, I got home at 11 o'clock at night, and I was on the first tee at Kirby Lonsdale in Cumbria at 12 o'clock the following day with my son, who is a good golfer, I'm rubbish.

But no, I've never been short of energy, and I've never been short of enthusiasm. I always believe we're so lucky, and I mean that, to be in the jobs that we do. I would hate to have worked in a bank or a building society who was recommended to me at school. So I think that's where the energy comes from, just the joy of knowing I'm in a job that I absolutely love every single second.

I can't wait for tomorrow. It's always quite funny for me, Annie, this, because I grew up listening to John, and now I'm in a fortunate position that we see each other socially, and I've been able to lean on him for advice on many an occasion. So I've got to be careful here that some of the stuff that I'm having, I already know the answer too, and some of the stuff I might ask him, he might not want to necessarily answer. So I'll have to tread carefully.

Well, do you know, the other thing as well, I'm at Wembley this weekend, so it's F.A. Cup semi-final weekend. It's Chelsea Leeds in the F.A. Cup semifinal on Sunday. And coincidentally, I think I'm right in saying that you were offered your very first job at the BBC back in 1970 on the very day that Chelsea played leads in the FA Cup final at Wembley in the first game. Is that right? That is brilliant research. Absolutely right. May 1970. That was the day. I got the job. What's the match in the afternoon? What's the replay as well? And subsequently, I was fortunate to produce. It used to be Radio 2, of course, at that time, at Wembley. And I'll never

forget. This has a little aside, but I think you'll enjoy it. I was the producer on Cup final day. Jim Rosenthal was presenting, and somebody opened the window, and all his notes for the entire Sportont 2 that afternoon flew out of the window down into the crowd at Wembley, and he had to remember four and a half hours of links. That's great research. Well done. Just on this season, John and Lincoln, how did that come about, in terms of the job you're doing now, and how is it compared actually to all the other stuff that you've done?

Well, he came about because Luke Thornehill, who was the media officer at Lincoln. He got in touch with me, not this season, the previous season, and asked me to do three pre-season friendlies, one at Harrogate, won at Oldham, and one against Arsenal's under 23 side. And I did it, never thought anything more about it. They had somebody working for them for the whole of last season.

And then at the beginning of this season, he came on to me around about May time, June time, I think, and said they'd enjoyed what I'd done, and was there any chance to be doing a few more matches this season? and so I said, yeah, yeah, how many? He said, like, every match. So I'm coming up to number 53 tomorrow, and number 54 at Port Vale will complete the season.

And how does it compare? Well, fantastically, I feel totally rejuvenated with Italy. I've always had this enthusiasm, and I've carried on working. I wrote for the mail on Sunday for a while as well, and I've done a lot of work with FIFA, as you know, at World Championships, World Tournaments, World Tournaments, World Tournaments, in India as well.

but this is so different because of the involvement with a club. And the biggest thing I would say about Lincoln is the inclusivity. They are absolutely fantastic. This week, Liam Scully, the chief executive, sent out a message thanking everybody at the club and naming them individually. The gate man, the security officers, the people do the teas and the coffers. And that's just typical of Lincoln. They're just so inclusive. But it's been that connection with a club that I've savored.

every single second of it. And they've been brilliant with me. The head coach Michael Skrabah is fantastic. We talk to each other every match day and occasionally on other occasions as well. The coaching staff are brilliant. So even though the Yorkshire Post very kindly said I had been the signing of the season,

I don't think so. It's nothing to do with me. It's been the team who are brilliant and the coaching staff who are equally brilliant and supportive of one another. So he's been totally rejuvenating. We bumped into each other, Alley, when I covered for Five Live, Lincoln played Chelsea, I think it was September in a league cup time.

I saw John then, and I saw first at hand, firsthand, the experience that you get at Sinsulbank. And I met Liam, again, the chief executive, there's Jess George, the director of football. I've not had the pleasure of meeting Michael Scurvella. But John, bearing in mind that they are now the champions and they're going back into the second tier of English football for, what, the first time in over 60 years, is that right? 65. 65. In 161, they played the last game in the Old Division 2.

But their budget is one of the lowest in League 1. I mean, it is quite extraordinary what they've managed to achieve there. And not just from a playing side, the way that they're sort of like regenerating one of the stands at the back of Sinsel Bank. Yeah, I don't know. I think what's pleased me more than anything. Well, a couple of things.

One is the early season, everybody was saying, little old Lincoln, they'll fall away. It'll be Cardiff, it'll be Bolton, it'll be Huddersfield Town, it'll be Luton. And I saw them play at Peterborough, where they won 3-0. And after that game, I bumped into some supporters at the station. I said, this team can go all the way, and they said, no, no, we're all falling away at Christmas.

Boxing Day, they won at Scotport County with a last minute goal. And I said, I told you. And the rest of the country gradually has woken up to the fact that they weren't going to go away. and what was really nice was on the night that they won the promotion at Reading. They got so many messages from other clubs. I think it's giving everybody a heart. It might be a little old club. You're right, they've got the 17th lowest budget in the division.

But it's a bit like Lester when they won the Premier League. We won't mention Lester now, but it's amazing, isn't it? Ten years ago, Lincoln were coming out of non-league out of the National League and Lester were the champions of the entire country. So John will be commentating on Lincoln against Wickham this weekend. Remember, by the way, the email address to get in touch with us on the pod. TCV at BBC.co.com. UK, lots of your correspondence on the way.

And the voice notes on WhatsApp please to the Football Daily number, which is 08,289-369. In terms of the five live commentaries coming up this weekend. So I've mentioned the FA Cup semi-finals. Saturday's game, Manchester City, Southampton, is on sports extra because Arsenal, Newcastle, play each other in the Premier League in the ongoing title race, Manchester City, now in top spot, but only by virtue of goals scored. So Saturday 5.30, John Murray and Glenmorry will do Arsenal, Newcastle. And I'm with Izzy Christensen for Manchester City, Southampton. Chelsea Leeds, full commentary on Sunday in the other FA Cup semi-final. That kicks off at 3 o'clock. Saturday 3 o'clock, Premier League.

back into it, Ian. Wolves against Spurs. I mean, now or never for Spurs. I mean, it's literally, well, not literally, but we've got to that point, haven't we? Yeah. They're not quite at the stage where they need snookers after last week's, or it's been mentioned in the previous two episodes of the TCV. But you look at their fixtures after this Wolves game. They've got Villa away, Leeds at home, Chelsea away, Everton at home. And Leeds United, going into that FA Cup semifinal, have had a marvelous sort of like two weeks where they've now got themselves

to 40 points. So since the start of the 20-team Premier League era, which was in 95-96, only three times in those 30 seasons has a team been relegated with at least 40 points. So you'd have to say that Leeds United would be safe there, nine points currently

clear of Tottenham. And then you're thinking, we've lost Wolves and Burnley, it's then one of three. Tottenham, West Ham or Forrest and Forrest have got the complication of that Europa League semi-final as well with Aston Villa to throw into the mix but for Tottenham they're going to have to get some points on the board

which was also for the reference last week. It was exactly. John we were talking I was asking John Murray actually last week about the possibility specifically of Spurs going down in terms of your broadcasting career and sort of most significant dramatic

relegations. This would be right up there if Spurs go down to the championship. Yeah, very, very much so. The only other one I would compare would be when Dennis Law backheeled the ball

into the Manchester United Net and sent them down playing for Manchester City. I mean, that was momentous. And of course, Astonville dropping down into the third division at one stage.

Tottenham have always been regarded as one of the big six, I hope, you know, so people just don't, wake up to things until it's too late almost. And suddenly everybody's saying, hey, Tottenham could go down. West Ham could go down.

One other things just occurred to me. From the days when I was the producer, it was the great Peter Jones and Brian Butler, you've just rattled off all those commentaries over the weekend. In those days, we were allowed one match and the second half only commentary. On a Saturday afternoon, we were allowed to commentate for 45 minutes on one game.

And 15-second reports on the others. That was it. nothing from leagues one, two, or division, two, three and four as they used to be in those. How times change. Am I right in thinking as well, John, at that point, that you weren't able to announce which game you were doing until a certain time? That's right, yeah, right, right up until virtually kickoff time. And I used to have to go and negotiate the contracts.

And it was what you call peanuts nowadays and will be tied to anybody who did make a reference to the commentary game before the specified time. Yeah, very, very changing times. How have you found your own voice in football commentary? Because obviously starting out and working with people like that, I'm sure there's probably bits you listen to and admire and think I like that. And you know, you obviously can't copy anyone's style, but you definitely pick up bits along the way.

So how have you found your way? How did you do that initially? Yeah, that's a very good question, actually, because everybody has a different voice. And it's a very strange business is ours, isn't it? Very subjective. People who either love you or hate you. I even be on the voice, I would admit, there's one of two voices currently I'm not too keen on.

But I worked with Deslinem, who had a wonderful voice. And I felt that I was still working with these people, your own voice changed a little bit because you sought to emulate. I never sought to copy anybody. You always have to be yourself. That's what I tell aspiring young journalist, be yourself, let your own personality shine through. But we have some wonderful voices, Peter Bromley on horse racing. I grew up listening to John Arlett on TestMatt Special

and one of the greatest privileges of my life was I got to produce one series of TestMats Special but it is a funny one that isn't it? But you are recognisable by your voice. You are, Deno is John Murray is. And I had the strange experience of arriving in Perth once in Australia and the passport control man looking up

I was about fall back in the queue and he said, what are you doing here? And he knew my voice. I've never been there in my mind. I like me, my voice, and people know your voice better than your face. And that's the good thing about radio, I suppose, especially in my case. You're absolutely right as well, John, in terms of the range of listening that is now available. I mean, go on that BBC Sounds app at the moment with the sports extra streams and so much.

I mean, not just the football, but in every field, the eye player, BBC television as well, the world snooker on at the moment. So in terms of what else we've got coming this weekend, lots of WSL action. So Saturday 12 are close. block Manchester City away to Brighton in the WSL, so that's on Sports Extra. Sports Extra will also have West Ham Everton on Saturday in the Premier League. So while Wolves are playing Spurs, West Ham are playing Everton. Spurs and West Ham right down there at the moment.

What else have it I mentioned at the weekend? Sunday midday, five-life sport will kick off with more WSL action. That is Everton against Chelsea. Sports Extra will have Arsle against Leon in the Women's Champions League, and then Chelsea leads. in that FA Cup semi-final at 3 o'clock. Just before we move on, Ian, obviously while you've been away,

Liam Rossini has gone at Chelsea. He was given a six and a half-year deal when he was made the manager in January and he's lasted less than four months. And I know people weren't happy with the way the team was playing and they were absolutely dreadful against Brighton this week. But do you feel it's more on the board and the way the club is being run?

That possibly more of the anger is directed that way from the Chelsea fans than it is towards Liam Resinia himself. Very much so. I was watching Enzo Fernandez just staring at the away support after they'd been beaten at Brighton and Hove Albion. And I'm thinking, I could just see the anger coming through from the Chelsea supporters.

And I'm thinking, how do Blueco now wrestle this back? Because I think it says more about them than it does about Liam Rossinia. I'm struggling to. think how they get the supporters back on board because there is such a massive disconnect between the Chelsea hierarchy and what they're trying to do and the Chelsea supporters. You see many a banner just saying we want our club back. And not selling the full allocation for the semi-final against Leeds United, I think,

only highlights the apathy that is currently coursing through that Chelsea support. And so there's a real worry there, and they say, we're going to have a period of self-reflection. Well, they need to have that period of self-reflection because there's something not working. And I thought Pat Nevin on the BBC Sport website sums it up when he says it's not about Resinia. And also, this year, we've had Resinia 106 days,

Ange Poster Coglu 39 days, Sean Dyche 114 days, and Tudor 44 days. That's about those who make the decisions. That's who make, you know, the recruitment policy. That's not working. And, you know, last week, talks a lot about the supercomputer. Look down the road for Chelsea fans at Brentford. They're using

one in West London because you could say that Mark Warburton, Dean Smith, Thomas Frank, Keith Andrews, that is a club that is consistently getting it right. And the best clubs are the ones that normally tend to have stability. And at the minute, there is instability at Chelsea and a real feeling of disillusionment amongst the supporters. And that would be the big. worry going forward that they've got to get the next appointment absolutely bang on. John, it will give Leeds fans great encouragement, I think, ahead of that semi-final. I don't imagine Chelsea can be as bad at Wembley as they were against Brighton. But, I mean, it's an amazing statistic to me, actually, or it's not a statistic.

John Murray would pick me up on that. It's a fact that Leeds have only ever won the FA Cup once, haven't they, in 72? Yeah. Yeah, against Arsenal and Alan Clark Head. And funnily enough, while you were talking there, I was just thinking about when you said 44 days to a certain Brian Clough. The unrest there was at Ellen Road at that time. It was quite an extraordinary period.

But those were different times and different circumstances, and that was an individual dislike between directors and a certain manager. But you're right, and Alistair, I've watched Leeds at the last couple of games, and they've played ever so well. They've played really well at Old Traffat. I mean, they hit the post twice as well as scoring a couple of goals. They could have had five or six. And they showed resilience, new resilience, I thought, at Bournemouth the other evening,

where at one point, because the way the game is now with VAR, it looked as though Bournemouth were 3-1-up, with two minutes to go, it finishes the two-two draw. The old Leeds team, the Leeds team of earlier in the season, wouldn't have managed that. They've probably been with a really good shout. But you're right, that time, 1972, was the only time they've walked away with the trophy. They were beaten by Liverpool there, of course. They lost to Chelsea in the replay.

at Old Trafford in 70. So it's a massive opportunity for Daniel Farker. And I'd like it for him in many ways because I think he's proved himself, really has it to the supporter, Ellenville this year. Good guy. I don't know if you agree with that, Denno, but he seems to me to be a really good guy

who's got things going pretty well now. Yeah. I've not had a chance to meet him, actually, John. We were due to, he was due to attend a dinner in November, the Football Writers Association Northern Managers' Awards dinner, which I, which I host for the FWA. And they'd lost to Aston Villa that day at Ellen Road. And he didn't feel it was, it was correct to attend the, the awards ceremony that night.

And I think at that point, the speculation was so great that many people thought, oh, that's him gone. Because they were then going into a period of games where they played Chelsea, Manchester City and Liverpool. I think it was in that order. And I remember doing the game at Manchester City. and they were beaten 3-2 but they were 2-0 down and they got it back

and many people now look back and think that was the turning point, that was the catalyst for the change of formation that ultimately went on where they went on a good run of form and they started to pick up points. How many football games do you think you've commentated on in your life? Do you know? I haven't a clue except it's 6,775.

So I've got to record. So it's always 6,775. In 90 countries, Alistair, that's been the beauty for me. 90 countries. So I've seen the wackiest games in places like Gambia and Thailand and are some really amazing games that I'll never ever forget. I commentated in India, unbelievable, some of the things that happened in India. A team called Manipur, which is close to the Chinese border,

they were playing Goa in Kerala. And it's a very poor area is Manipur. It's nil-nil a minute to go, and a guy called Toma Singh did a Beckermasque free kick into the top corner and they ran away to celebrate with their two supporters who'd made the journey with them.

It was going out live in Mani for the first time live to television. And they celebrated so long, the referee said to Goa, you might as well kick off because I don't think they're going to come back. So they went down the field in Goa and a gloriously named Climax Lawrence put the ball into the net,

one, one. the Manipur players turned around and said, what is happening? They've equalised. So there was riot to the police on horseback and water cannon. What I didn't know,

they were so poor, they had a five-day train journey home to Manipur, arrived in Manipur to be told by the station master, you've won the appeal, the replay is in five days' time. The train leaves in 20 minutes.

Absolutely true, and they lost 1-0. That's the true story. That's the sort of thing that's happened to me along the way. Oh my goodness me Wanted to ask you about one game in particular John out of those 6,775 Because again

Just reading an interview you'd given this season You commentated on a game That really properly got me hooked on football At the World Cup in 1982 So I was into my football by then But the game that really sparked my imagination And I can still picture it now and hear it now in vivid color

was Italy's 3-2 win over Brazil at the World Cup in Spain in 1982 and the Paolo Rossi hat trick. So in terms of doing that game, John, just in terms of the nuts and bolts of it, sort of stadium, weather, atmosphere, noise, facilities, what was that like to do that game? It was the greatest game I've ever seen.

You're absolutely spot on, and I felt so proud. to have been there, to have the opportunity to commentate on that. And the only thing I would say about my performance that day was that I was unprofessional in that I so wanted Brazil to win. Zico, Socrates, Falcow, Eddae, Junio, the names rolled off the tongue. And I thought it would have been good for the very essence and very future football if Brazil had won that World Cup.

I'd done every one of their games against Russia and Scotland and New Zealand and Argentina. when Maradona got sent off. And it was such a privilege. The weather was fantastic. The Brazilians in the yellow strips in the crowd made it such a colorful occasion. It was played in Barcelona, not in the Saria Stadium, not in the New Camp. But it was without question, a game that had everything. That for me summed up the whole of football, what it can be like, a colorful pageant, exhilarating,

entertaining. You go to watch that every day of the week. And it was a dream to be there. They were probably the greatest size, never to win a World Cup, weren't they? Not without question. Absolutely without question, Jim. And I think Demo Yudas enjoyed commentating on them. You know, we've all been to some good matches. We've been to some horrible matches over the years. It's always a privilege to go to any game for me.

But to have been there at that one. It was a great question because it's, given me the opportunity to say that that sums up what I was talking about earlier. We are so privileged to be in this job and to have seen great moments like that. I saw Usain Bolton, that was another great moment as well, breaking a world record. I saw Geoffrey Boycott making his 100th of 100. And it's just to be there and to have that thrill and the honour of having been there is for nothing. We haven't paid to go, haven't been just there doing our jobs.

It's interesting to talk about the other sports there, John, because, you know, we've all, you know, Johnny and I have done a few different sports in our time as commentators for BBC Radio Sport. Again, from my research ahead of this pod today, 39 different sports that you've commentated on, apparently. Yeah, some of them very badly. For example, Greyhound racing, where dogs are called something like Maharaja of Broda the 3rd in the race last 30 seconds. and I did that at the old Ellen Road dog track which you'll know, Deno in Leeds and I got one response

stick to football and it was absolutely right but even yeah I do the Asian games and I did five sports in one day the last time I was in China doing it I did handball which is a nightmare it's so fast going from one end of the court to the other

you can't possibly do them all well but the other thrilling moments I had from another the sport. He was golf and in 1977, 4, Radio 2 as it was at the time, I was the on-course commentator when Nicholas and Watson had the famous shootout and interviewed Linda

Watson, Tom's wife, as he hold the winning put. It was another memory that you'll never lose. You can't erase things like that from your mind. So yeah, it's been fantastic and what you do do is research even more diligently a sport that you're not

used to doing. So I had to do open water swimming. I was even offered chess. Could you imagine commentating on chess? Good move. Every now and again good move. Well played. So some I've fairly enjoyed. Recently I've done water polo.

I've done that for the last four editions of the World Water Polo at the World Aquatics Championships and thoroughly enjoyed that. They are the best of the best. I've almost said even Torval and Dean. You knew they were the best. France clamour skiing. You knew he was the best. You only have to

watch them to know somehow. Something inside tells you why, he's good. They're good. They're better than anybody else. And that's been a privilege, again, you know, all these different sports. You've just mentioned the Gulf in 1977. What was the story involving Argentina in the World Cup in 1978? Deno, are you being a bit naughty here? No, no.

I'll tell you why. This is from John Murray. So John said we must, must, must ask you about. So apparently you were at that World Cup. in 1978, Argentina hosting, and they win it in Buenos Aires, and you were in the dressing room after they've won the World Cup. I thought of something else for a moment, which involved a certain manager. But yes, the final finish in Buenos Aires,

and I was the producer for BBC there. I did do one commentary, fully enough involving Brazil and Italy. But I was down at the dressing room door, and Ernie Brandt, one of the Dutch players I got to know during the build-up, and he said, coming to the dressing room. And this was, they just got beaten

in the World Cup final and I'm in the Dutch dressing room interviewing Rennie van de Kerkhoff, Ernie Brandt, Johnny Rep, you know, within five minutes. I mean,

could you imagine that today even at Rotherham United or Wraith Rovers? He'd have no chance at all, would you? But, yeah, and then all evening, the car horns sounding,

you know, Argentina winning the World Cup for the first time ever. But yeah, those are just the wonderful things that used to happen. In those days, you knew every player. You had the phone number of every what would now be Premier League player and certainly every manager. You talk to them on a regular basis.

I used to go playing darts and Dominoes with Jack Charlton and Billy Brenner on a Friday night. Imagine doing that today. Five light sports. So here's the first ball of this series. All the cricket you laugh. Shave Ralph lives on BBC Sounds. Straight back down the ground, this girl.

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Just before we get onto some of our more regular and lighter pod features, One thing I hope you don't mind me asking you about, you were the commentator, weren't you, at Bradford City in 1985 and the tragic fire there that day. And it's just, you know, you talk about the great privilege that we have with the jobs that we do in the events we get to go and see. But on a day like that day, and it would be the same for Peter Jones at Hillsborough, of course, wouldn't it, in 1989? Probably your every instinct as a human being is either to run away from the danger or run towards it to try and help people and actually you've got to keep doing your job

and providing record, haven't you, of that? That must have been just incredibly difficult. Yeah, a very harrowing day. And I never mind talking about it, Ali, because, you know, it has to be talked about. And thankfully, if any good has come from 1985 and May the 11th, it is that we've got some wonderful stadia around the world. And of course, people can't smoke cigarettes in football grounds anymore,

which would what caused the disaster. But I really was grateful for all the training I'd had almost seven years on a weekly paper, four years on the Yorkshire Post and Evening Post, local radio, national radio, before being thrust into television. And I had a great director with me that day called Peter Jones, and he was very encouraging. He was in my ears just saying, keep talking, John, you keep talking.

And I was very conscious of not over-dramatizing because the pictures were dramatic enough, obviously. And I could see the pall of smoke going up above Valley Parade. And I didn't realize the gravity at the time. I couldn't bother with Don. And there were a lot of people there that I knew, you know, spilling out onto the pitch.

But then two little boys scrambled up the hillside, you know this deno, the old middle and roadside at Valley Parade and shouted to me, there were two dead down there. And that really sent a shudder up me. And even when I speak about Nally Parade on that day, now it still sends a shudder up my spine. But I always say you have to talk about it

because it's happened it's in history. If I could have been anywhere else that day, I would love to have been somewhere else. But it happened to be me and you just do the job, you hope, as professionally as possible, as I say, not over-dramatized because those pictures must have been horrendous.

and thinking about people watching at home. People were at home are no interest in the football. Suddenly's Valley Parade and they're looking at those pictures live which were being beamed around the world. So it was a horrific experience but one that cannot be forgotten,

never will be forgotten. Yeah. They played, I mean in terms of the football which obviously became a complete irrelevance, they played Lincoln. Didn't they, John, that day? They were playing Lincoln that day, who you are now,

commentate, you know, you are now the commentator for Lincoln City. And I'm right in saying, aren't I, that Lincoln asked you to represent them when they played Bradford at Sincal Bank this season? Yes, they did. I laid the wreath. And funny enough,

I'm laying a wreath before the final home game against Wiccan Wonders as well, because I always insisted that it should never be forgotten that two Lincoln City fans lost their lives and never went home on that day as well. and yes I'm honoured that Lincoln have asked me to represent the club in the lane of the wreaths and I'm honoured as I say to do that you know and that's the way Lincoln have embraced me as well

and I appreciate the gesture very very much so what was nice to be I said that I know a lot of the brand for people so I'm not going to wear the Lincoln gear which I wear on a match day as a representative of the club I'm going to wear a suit or a smart churten tie. And I think the Bradford fans respected that as well. And I got a nice reception from both sets of representatives of the clubs. Yeah, we've got John Helm with us on the Commentators View podcast this week. So John, as I said, 56 years of broadcasting. John, we've got some regular features we do on the podcast,

so lots of correspondence from our listeners. And I think you'll enjoy joining in with these. One last question before we do that, actually. obviously you've done a lot I mean it sounds to me like you've done every single job you could possibly do in in broadcasting radio and television do you have a favourite

in terms of commentating on they're very different styles aren't they radio commentary is very very different from TV commentary and you have done both brilliantly do you have one you prefer well this is a very strange question it's a very strange answer in a funny way

because I love doing a program called scrum down which is rugby league is how I got to know Dave Woods, of course. Simply because, as you know, and Dennell, you particularly know as well, of course, it's the all thing about fail to prepare, prepare to fail. But with rugby league, you didn't need to do as much preparation because there is so much action, it's so fast and it's shorter, it's 80 minutes. You still did your notes about every single player.

But it never stopped. And also the accessibility, something I was talking about a moment ago about football, as you have that still with rugby league players, we would go on all this program scrum down to present a Player of the Match Award. And I'd be in the dressing room, just like I was the Dutch in 1978, I'd be in the dressing room five minutes

after they've been smashing one another to bits doing this Player of the Match Award. We did one at He'd headingly, and a player called Carl Gibson was voted the Player of Matches. He suddenly leapt up in the middle of the interview. Somebody had stubbed a cigarette out on his backside, which was very hot. but as an actual commentator, rugby league, I thought, was fantastically entertaining to do it.

It really was, you know, eight to ten tries a match really. So it might be a bit of a strange answer, but I thoroughly enjoyed several years of doing rugby league commentary. Right. Tell you what, let's move it on then. So the first of our features we'll get to is our unintended pub names. And by the sounds of it, John, Ian, John, Dave Woods, others do enjoy. popping into the odd hostel re or two when they're off duty. So John, this came about Paul Robinson,

former England goalkeeper Leeds, goalkeeper Spurs, goalkeeper Blackburn, came up with this feature for us. It was during a commentary with John Murray, I think, where John used a phrase, and Paul said that actually sounds like a pub name, and we now get our listeners to message in whenever they've heard unintended pub names. So we've got a couple of pub and film names from commentaries for you.

Last week we had Sunshine and Pain, and we had a great film description for a film called The Rising Whistling Drive, which I think came from one of Ian's post-match reports. So Kevin from Wittsabell has sent us this one from Michael Brown, and this was during Michael and I doing Leeds Wolves last weekend. Ocalfour's going to try and get away on the left. Bueno slides in. Missed the ball, missed the man.

Ocalfour, though, has knocked it out of play. That'll be a throw into wolves. Michael Brown. Yeah, good start, man, Shimane. the talented youngster and I was at that game as well. I don't know if I was with you doing this. So the talented youngster is the suggestion guys as the unintended pub name and Kevin says it would be an upmarket bijou style pub full of teenagers

such as Max Dowman and Rio Ungamoa who will be trying really hard to get themselves served however the manager politely tells them they can only consume soft drinks for another couple of years until they turn 18 the talented youngster. We've had this one Ali Brent I'm at the Furn fan Matt from Leamington on the south coast. I am sending you a voice note from the harbour side at La Rochelle. Very nice at this too. Anyway, I noticed an early potential public house during the Liverpool Derby at the Hill Dickinson.

Bill Leslie, I believe it was him, was discussing the pressure on Mr. G. Marbanashvili Esquire to stand in for the revered Allison. I sort of thought the revered Allison sounded a bit like a classy Mayfair establishment, lots of mahogany, red velvet, probably specialises in large glasses of Ryokka, and Venison Pie, I believe. So keep up the fine work chaps. Okay, so John, if you had a choice of going for a pint in the revered Allison or the talented youngster, where do you think you're heading?

Well, I think the revered Allison sounds good. It could be Malcolm Allison, it could be Wayne Allison. Oh, yes. Yeah, it's a good one, is that, isn't it? And Deno and I, we don't want to have to paint anywhere, really, do we? Yeah, as long as you're John Murray are buying. Yeah, absolutely right. Danny in the Hague in the Netherlands, high T-CV, different sport,

while watching the snooker. I've just heard Dennis Taylor say the dreaded double kiss during the match between Kairn Wilson and Stan Moody. Unintentional pub name or unintentional film name, take your pick, the dreaded double kiss. Yeah, it sounds like it could be a bit of James Bond if you were going to go film there, the dreaded double kiss.

Have you ever commentated on snooker job? Presented it. I didn't do the commentary, but we used to do pro-celebrity snooker, and Steve Davis was in it, and I used to present it, and one shocking story, at the end, I used to always have to say, well, thank you for joining, as hope you've enjoyed the coverage.

Join us again next week, wherever. And I had, alongside me, Les Dawson and Jimmy Tarbuck, and by mistake, it came to the end, And I said, well, thanks very much for joining. Join us again next week for more Pro Celebrity. Golf. For some reason, I said, golf, for goodness.

I think they've been doing some of the day before. And every time I got to the punchline, join us again next week. Jimmy Tarbubble would shout out. Darts! Glese Dors would shout out. Golf. I can talk with about 24 takes to get the program finished with. Great characters.

Great characters. Yeah. So thank you for that, Danny. The Dreaded Double Kiss. If you do spot an unintended pub or film name in any sports commentary, let us know.

TCV at BBC.com. UK and the WhatsApp to 08,000, 289 369. Have you done the 92? The grounds? Well, funny enough, I've been to about 126,

but I've not done Bromley, I've not done crawley. You know, because I'm so busy, I thought, well, I'm not going to just go special just to say that I've been. I'm hoping to go one day,

working there, but I'll actually have been to about a 120 football league Broughtford Park Avenue as Dan O'Nose is my club and I've been to the barrels and the workingtons and the gates heads

but every year there's another team comes in it used to be a Dagganan Redbridge or Forest Green Rovers fully up I went to commentate on with Ian Snodding and as we arrived they put up the match postponed sign

and so I never got to see the year of Forest Green Rovers at their ground when they were in the league either so yeah it's something was still on my mind You know, it's still possible. I'm all in my mid-Aidsies.

I don't wish to go back on to the naughty step, but if, if, and I've heard John recite this when we have been in an actual pub name rather than an unintended pub name, it is a treat to listen to John rattle through the 92. I mean, he is in the Guinness World Book of Records for doing it.

He can do it in 26 seconds. I know, aren't you? Well, only because I marvel every time I listen. I mean, I've heard you do it after I've had a few points. So this might be the first time I've heard you do it sober. Do you know how it happened? It happened because of Radio 2. In the days when the lady called Patricia Arthur from Liverpool was the brain of sport

who could answer questions about a timekeeper in a boxing match in 1923. And we took them on. We had to sit an exam in the office in London at Broadcasting House and Deslinum, myself, and Christopher Martin Jenkins and a great broadcaster, a lovely guy. We were the three chosen to represent the BBC against the brains of sport. And so when Peter Jones asked me for the first question,

I slipped to him, I said, John, did you just ask me to name all the county cricket teams? So I said, well, John Helm, name all the county cricket teams, please. I said, Darbyshire, Durham, Mexico, come home, and Gloucestershire, Hampshire, Lancashire, Middle-Sach, Northhouse, not Somerset Series, with Warshil, to Yorkshire.

It took about four seconds. All right, he said, smart so I'm so. How about rugby league? I said, well, there's Barrow, Battle, Blackfield, Bradford, Bradford, Bradford, Cardiff, Carlin, Castleford, for Chowley, Dews, but donkers, the feathers, and Fulham, Hull, Hulkingston, Rovott, Huntsw at Hight, and Keighley, Leasley, Lee, Lee, Nottingham, and Rochdale, Seppel, and Swinton, Chappendon, Wakefield, Wigman, Witton, Witton, Witton, Witton,

Witton, Witton, Witton, City, Mane, a second. Ah, okay, then. He said, bet you can't do the 92 Football League League Clubs. So I'll try There's Arceless and Villa Birmingham, Brighton, Coventry Ed Nutrition, Wilpool, Manning City, Maniax in

Middorf, Norley, Forest, North Carolina, Stamon, Stoombe, St, Stamon, St,onzie, Southam, Wales, Paisley, Black and Bolton, Cambridge, Cardiff, and Chelsea, Crisle Bas, Derby, Grindley, Leicester,

Newcastle, Norwich, Oldham, Coffin, Rosham, Watson, Roves, Robert, Wofford, Rek, Bernd, Chesson, Bishop, District, District of Chester, Kester,

Ful and Gillon, Huddersfield, , Lincoln, Millwood, Newport, also at Plymouth, Poston, Redding, South, then Swindon, Wimbledon,

Witton, Atkinson, Oldishop Barney, Barthes City, Burry, Covers of the crew, down in Halifax, Hartley, Paul, Hayford, McHenfield, Manseville,

and Stavis, Schumford, and I just don't Porteach and Mewa, Wiggin, and York. And it took 26 seconds, off. I'm sorry about holding

everybody up, and I hope you could get your team in there. But it did get me on to the Guinness Book of Records show with David Frost, Paul McCartney, who sold the most records worldwide.

Billy Jean King, who'd won the most tennis titles, the world's fastest cucumber slicer, the man who played Dracula the most times, and a lady and her hostess who would fall in 36,000 feet out of a plane and lift. And she was fantastic. That's the most everybody's done. So apologies for that, but I hope it didn't take up too much of your time. That is superb, isn't it, Annie?

what on earth have we been doing with our time, Ian? That's what I wouldn't know. That is astonishing. That is absolutely astonishing. Right, we're going to get on to the great glossary of football commentary. I'm very much looking forward to John's input on this. Just before we do that, last week we heard from Rees in East London, who wrote in delighted about there being a fellow TCV listener called Rees from London.

So this week, that Rees from London, has reached out to say, Dear TCV, I'm not writing today to contribute to you. your great features of the show, but rather to thank you for making the world feel just that little bit smaller, now that I'm aware of a fellow Reese in East London. I'm not sure if we should meet up for a postgame glass of red, or if like Venger and Fergie, this is a rivalry for the decades and could only be decided by an exhibition match of Clash of the Commentators on the pod. All the best, Reese, also from East London. So two listeners called Reese from East London, so please do reach out again because we need another way of identifying.

you and differentiating you. And the very good question, obviously, is, do you support different football teams? Which teams do our two Reese's support? Right. Should we do the glossary in? The Reese reunion could be in the Reese Rovers. Very good.

So, great glossary of football commentary. We're adding commentary terms and phrases to our collection. You can find our entire glossary in the episode description. So it's Division I for football exclusive terms. You'll only hear them in football commentaries. and Division 2 for terms that are used in football commentary, but they're also used in other sports, other walks of life. Last week, we put postage stamp.

Now, I'd be interested to get John's thoughts on this one, actually. We put postage stamp and taking it to the corner flag into Division 1. But Ollie in Sleaford has sent us a WhatsApp. Hello, TCV team. I feel the need to argue against postage stamp being put in Division 1. While it does describe the top corner of a goal, it also describes the exact placement of a ball in a specific location. Golf uses this term, he landed it on a postage stamp.

There's even a golf hole at Royal Trune named the postage stamp for those reasons. I feel it should be relegated to Division 2. Now, John, I'm well aware of the postage stamp at Royal Trune. I'm not sure in commentary I've ever said he landed it on a postage stamp though. Have you? No, no, that's a new one to me. And I can't imagine anybody. Sometimes people hear what they want to hear.

They hear something that are, and they latch upon it. And I don't get that. You wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have done that. Dena wouldn't have done that. We have had this, though, from Richard in Berkshire, says maybe the term postage stamp should be reconsidered. And his message reads,

you suggested last week that postage stamps are only placed in the top right. Lundy, an island in the Bristol Channel, has had a private postal service since 1929. Its stamps are positioned top left since a UK postage stamp is still required top right. Part and parcel. If it went top left corner, John, would you say it's in the postage stamp?

Not in this universe. Never ever. We've got this one from Ross. Now we've heard from Ross before. Ross is his majesty's ambassador to Estonia. Hello Ross. Dear TCV, greetings again from your Baltics correspondent. A suggestion for the glossary,

when a player has shown a red card is said to have gone for an early bath. For me, it conjures up visions of those big communal baths in 1970s era changing rooms. I guess it's Division 2, as it would also be used in rugby. But I also think the early bath, this is a good point, could be a cracking West Country pub with local pork pie. and real ales. I mean, it is a classic, the early barth. And in the modern game, Ian, you know,

players don't go for bars now, so it doesn't quite work, but we still use it. But it's probably div two, isn't it? It is div too, yeah, yeah. Although I agree about the pub in the West Country. If it's got port pies and real ales, then John Murray would definitely be in that one. Eddie Waring was the first one to use that.

I'm aware. He described a rugby league player who got sent off I think he was a Wakefield Trinity player and Eddie Waring said he's gone for an early bath and it probably was two in those days they did all dive into the same bath I reckon Yeah Let's get a voice note

How about this one from Johnny in Hertfordshire I have two suggestions If I may for the glossary this week Both of which are quite pertinent To this time of the season And both worthy of Division I state As I believe So the first one

Is the business end of the season which obviously only gets brought out in the final few weeks and there's much to play for. And then secondly, squeaky bum time. That classic phrase first uttered by Sir Alex Ferguson many years ago and something that's actually now in common parlance but has its origins firmly in football, I believe.

So yeah, they're mine too, I know a bit cheeky, but hopefully at least one of them will make it through to Div 1. Sounds like it was recorded in a communal bath that, doesn't it? It does. Very echoey. It's a good point, though, that Johnny makes, because squeaky bum time, orange is in football definitely,

you know, a bit like John was saying with Eddie Waring in the early bath, that is Sir Alex Ferguson, but it is used elsewhere now. So that's probably, it probably was a Division 1, but now becomes a Division 2 because I think that would be used elsewhere.

And I think business end of the season, we've already got in Division 2. Yeah. I think so. John in Missouri is up next. Hello, gents, for your consideration in the glossary and nostalgic memories, The Magic Sponge. Grant in Queensland, also on this one.

I think I've solved the injury crises that have afflicted a number of the top, top, top premiership teams in recent years. It's because these top teams stopped investing in that matte black bucket containing the Magic Sponge. A number of younger listeners will not be aware, but back in the pre-premiership era where there was no squad rotation, only one sub and a playing surface resembling a peat bog, players would go down but then be quickly revitalised by a visit from the trainer with their trusty black bucket and a quick dowsing of ice-cold water

from a large yellow sponge, which could appear to soak up around 3,000 litres of water. I'm sure that the return of this valuable implement would regularly keep our valuable stars on the pitch. And John, that is a good point because I think I would use... I mean, you don't see the magic sponge anymore, but I would use that as a term, but there'd be loads of listeners who would think,

What on earth? What on earth is he talking about? It's true, isn't it? And it's always yellow. Have you noticed? Never green, never red. It's got to be a magic. Where does the magic come from?

I mean, I've never, I've had a sponge. I don't think I've ever had a magic sponge. It's the sort of thing that, you know, David Nixon used to have, if you remember him. Paul Daniels, they might have turned up with a magic sponge, but not always to Bruce Bohr or Ian Dennis or John Murray. No chance. It's amazing, though, isn't it? when you think about it,

that the quality of the footballers from yesterday year, and yet they were treated with just a sponge. Often in the Netherlands. When they've been hit with that heavy ball. Yeah. Well, yeah. Tim in Nottingham's got our last one. I think we've discussed this one before.

Finished with a plomb. It used to describe many a cool finish by strikers over the years, but I actually heard this the other week on Five Live from one of your golf pundits, Trish Johnson, when describing Rory Macaroy at the Masters, so I think it now falls into Division 2. Oh, I see, so it was in Div 1. Macalroy finished with a plomb.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's Div 2. I'm pretty sure, and you'd have worked with Mike Ingham, John. I'm pretty sure that Mike Hingham, he used to discourage me to say, finish with a plumb. I'm pretty sure that Mike wasn't a fan of that expression. No. We've all got out little idiosyncrasy, haven't with certain things that we detest.

Now, I mentioned earlier about part and parcel. That was a Dave Bassett special. And then somebody said, what on earth does part and parcel mean? And I'm not sure either. No. But there's things we all hate and things we all try to avoid. My first editor told me never used the same word in the same sentence twice. And I've tried to stick to that, apart for if it's a quotation like to be or not to be.

That's fair enough. But otherwise, there are words. definitely to be a vote. I hate temporary really. That's not a good word to come out with at any stage. Simon Mann, who's obviously a long, you know, longtime commentator on Test Match Special, plies his trade was one that apparently Simon didn't like.

That's always stuck with me. I've never ever used it. And it wasn't even Simon who told me it. It was my brother who told me it because Simon had told him. So plies his trade, I don't go with that one. But you're right. We all have our, little peccadillo. So the summary of the glossary

today, finished with a plumb is dropping down to Division 2. Early Bath is going into Division 2 and John's actually given us where we very first heard that. Business end of the season, Division 2 yeah, it has to be because of other sports, that's used elsewhere. Squeaky bum time Division 2

so the ones we have to ask you chaps the Magic Sponge is that going in Division 1 or Division 2? I'd go Division 2 because the Magic Sponge would have been used in Rugby League and rugby union. Division two.

Okay. So nothing's getting into Division I unless postage stamp is staying in Division I because we're not accepting. Because I do, I've got to say, I do disagree with landing it on a postage stamp. I'm trying to think of landing it. If you do land it, you know, so at the Masters, for example, you have to find very specific spots on the green. But I don't think I'd ever say landing it on a, maybe landing it on a dime or, no, it's

turning on a sixpence, isn't it? Yeah. I think, yeah, I'm getting, yeah, I'm talking to myself here. I think that's staying in, I think, okay. And I was actually telling me I was playing golf with my son the other day, and I was talking to him about like a butterfly landing with sore feet, which is, which is one. I don't know who first said that, but that's, that's a brilliant description, isn't it, of something coming to land very, very softly?

Right, I think that's, that's us. that is us, that is us for TCV today. John, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on and also just hearing those stories it makes me realise that I've got to get myself up north and get myself invited to a social with you and Ian

and John and others because I feel I'm missing out there. You'd be very very, very welcome. Thanks you're around. John, it's been a pleasure and I look forward to seeing you soon and I'll be glad to get you the first round in. You're a good man done else. Yeah, I look forward to seeing you as well.

I know you enjoyed Lincoln Chelsea. Yes. And, you know, you've been very welcome there as well. Listen to me sounding as a representative of Lincoln City football. Whoever would have believed that. It's been a pleasure talking to you both and to everybody. Absolute pleasure. Everyone, keep the unintended pub names and glossary suggestions coming in, as always.

TCV at BBC.com.com. And you can send us a message or a voice note on the WhatsApp to 08,289-39369. That is it for this episode of the Football Daily. And remember you can find each and every episode of the commentator's view by scrolling down your Football Daily feet. John Murray is going to have to listen to that episode. He doesn't he never listens back to the pot, but he's going to have to listen to this one. He's going to have to listen to that way.

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