Football Daily - The Commentators’ View: Peter Drury & episcopal eutopia

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

Peter Drury goes behind the microphone with John Murray and Alistair Bruce-Ball. He talks through his early days as a 5 Live football commentator, his relationship with words and how he thinks he may have put the commentator’s curse on Manchester United! Also Peter goes head-to-head with John Murray in a heavyweight Clash of the Commentators. And clarification on the Great Glossary criteria!03:45 Peter’s route into the industry 05:50 Peter’s first radio commentary 11:30 Peter’s broadcasting inspirations 17:45 Peter ‘showing off’ on Sports Report 20:05 ‘Words have been my best friend and my worst enemy’ 22:25 What is the best ‘Commentators’ View’ in sport? 27:00 Guilty examples of the ‘commentator’s curse’ 32:20 Heavyweight ‘Clash of the Commentators’ 43:45 The ‘Great Glossary’ rules are ironed outBBC Sounds / 5 Live FA Cup commentaries this weekend: Fri 28 Feb 2000 Aston Villa v Cardiff, Sat 1 Mar 1215 Crystal Palace v Millwall, Sat 1 Mar 1215 Preston v Burnley on BBC Sport website, Sat 1 Mar 1500 Bournemouth v Wolves, Sat 1 Mar 1745 Man City v Plymouth, Sun 2 Mar 1345 Newcastle v Brighton, Mon 3 Mar 1930 Nottingham Forest v Ipswich.

BBC Sounds music radio podcast. The commentators view with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis on the football daily. Hello, I'm John Murray. Welcome to the commentators view where we take you behind the microphone and reveal what life is like as a five live commentator. Alistair Bruce Ball is with us. Good morning John. Ian Dennis would be delighted to know Ian's not here again this week. We're starting three minutes early this week. We're actually starting early. However, we are starting significantly later than we would do were Ian here. So we've had

another nice lie in. But I think next week when Ian is back, I think it's back to an early starter game. Anyway, Ian is away, as the Americans say, he's on assignment. So while the cat's away, the mice are playing. We had an email to tcv at bbc.co.uk and we'll be very happy and keen to hear your contributions if you want to get in touch in that way. But this was from Newcastle United fan, Christopher,

who wrote to us and said, "'Hello, I've got a few suggestions of commentators "'you could invite onto the show. "'Number one, Wayne Mardle from Sky Sports Darts. "'Number two, David Croft from Sky Sports Formula One. "'Number three, Martin Brundle "'also from Sky Sports Formula One.'" Now three, Martin Brundle, also from Sky Sports Formula One. Now, unfortunately, none of his top three were available.

But instead, we've gone for Sky Sports football commentator, Peter Drury. Welcome back to the BBC. Thank you, John. I only wish I were Wayne Mardle. Who's brilliant, by the way? Well they all are of course. David Croft, a former colleague of ours at BBC Radio as well. But we're very excited to have you with us in Ian's absence because last week Chris Coles joined us. So there is a symmetry behind this and there is a meaning behind this in that last week, we wanted to reflect some of the new blood that there is coming through,

and we happened to choose Chris. And now you, at the other end of the scale, are someone who even predates me on BBC Radio Sport. And people might not necessarily, younger listeners might not necessarily realize this. Which feels remarkable to me and probably to you as well, John, because it feels like only yesterday. And I cherish, not necessarily the fact that I predate you,

but I cherish my memories of working on BBC Radio Sport, beyond which I almost can't say anything, which will make it a very short pod, but they were amongst perhaps the happiest days of my professional life and I'm so happy to be able to come on here and reflect on them with you and to remember the times when we just about dovetailed and indeed the many years since because I think I don't know what people's perceptions are of commentators who work for quotes rival channels and all of that sort of stuff but they ought to know that generally speaking we're a funny little village of people who broadly speaking all get on very very well and love sharing each other's experiences and sharing each other's

knowledge and occasionally insights and one of us might know something that the other doesn't know and all of that sort of thing and it's a really nice Gang to be a part of isn't it? It really is and and I suppose for me the original gang was the gang I was part of when I was with the BBC. So who's in that gang then Peter? Who are you talking about there? Well, I mean I came from BBC local radio, Radio Leeds, to Broadcasting House at that point where there was an explosion of opportunity actually, a because, funnily enough, satellite television was beginning so all sorts of people were getting jobs out of the BBC into that, sorts of people were getting jobs out of the BBC into that and B because it was in the months and years approaching the birth of Five Live. So I was in a cohort of people,

if you like, who worked for what you guys will remember, the listeners won't and I don't want it to sound too in, but you know, who worked through the local radio desk and I was working with Marcus Buckland who's gone on to be a very successful television presenter with Simon Brotherton who's probably brought home more Olympic gold medals to the BBC than any other person alive or dead. He's known as the jeweller Peter, that's his nickname on the Olympic team, he's the jeweller. There you are and you know I don't know how many gold medals he has brought home but I know he hasn't got a single one wrong. He calls those guys home absolutely superbly. And so we were there, a fellow

called Andy Kaye, you'll remember, who was an athletics producer for a while, and several others. Ian Brown, I was a contemporary of him. We sort of became network commentators together. I'm sure there will be listeners to this who remember Ian, who had a terrific dry sense of humour and a lovely use of words. And so we were the ones coming through into the sort of stellar line-up that was Green and Ingham, you know, Alan Green, the very, very famous voice of BBC Radio Football, Mike Ingham, who was of course John's predecessor as the correspondent and a lovely man and a great thinker about broadcasting and the game and of course the great Ron Jones who was in a sense a father figure to me.

I went on my first sort of European trips with him and he had his arm around my shoulder and looked after the little oik that I was. So who was alongside you when you, and can you remember what it was? I'm sure you can. Your first network radio football commentary. Yeah, I anticipated that question, John. And funnily enough, the one I think of as my first

probably wasn't my first. I remember doing a game which must have been just the second half or a last half hour or something because of timings, because I was on my own as a commentator. In those days we always used to have two. At Swindon, Swindon Middlesbrough with summariser Eddie Nidsvicki and I also remember doing a game, funnily enough, with Simon Brotherton at Burnley the season before it really all took off. And that was a funny thing because Simon and I are great friends, always have been, always will be.

But it was a kind of face-off. We were both competing for the same sort of thing. And there was a great comradeship between us. We helped each other a lot. But I think we were both aware that we were also both being judged that night a bit. Although we weren't because the reason we were doing that game was because it was the BBC Christmas party and so nobody else was available. So I don't suppose anybody listened at all. We just thought they were. So those were those two. But the game I remember being my first one when I was properly on the rotor and started doing it

was in August 1995 and it was Bolton Wanderers against Newcastle United on a Monday night with Alan Green and the great, the absolutely certainly without any argument great Jimmy Armfield. And Jimmy Armfield that night was so kind to me because I think he saw me absolutely quaking. I was terrified of the moment. And he he very literally put his arm around my shoulder. He absolutely put his hand on my knee as we sat down at Burndon Park and told me, you'll be alright son, you'll be alright son. And mercifully Les Ferdinand I think scored my first goal and you couldn't really get him wrong. And I looked the game

up last night. I remember Jimmy talking about the herd of zebras behind the goal, you know the Newcastle supporters and all that stuff, which was one of his stock lines but it never got stale and Goodney Bergson scored Bolton's goal and I think he's one you wouldn't easily get wrong either So the gods of commentary were kind to me in terms of player recognition and I can't remember a word I said I was probably absolutely awful But but not quite so awful as not to be asked about the next week. Have you two commentated together before then, split a match? You two have, yeah.

You can say that again because my very first commentary on Five Live was Oxford United against Port Vale in the League Cup alongside Robbie Earl and Mr. Peter Drury. So Peter was there sitting on that little gantry at the manor ground, it was that long ago. And I remember Charlotte Nicol was the producer that night and I remember Charlotte had arranged for me very kindly to ring up Brian Horton, he was the manager of Oxford United, and just have a chat, and he actually gave me the team, so I had that all lined up. So very much, yes, we worked together, Peter.

Yeah, we did, John, and I do, honestly, I don't want to be too gushing, but I cherish the fact that we did, actually. It's lovely to have that shared memory. And when I think of that night, I think of two things. A, that you and I worked together which is great and B that's unlike you who had the full Oxford team and were probably hyper prepared in a way you only ever are for

your very first one I was certainly prepared I'd done my prep but I I remember thinking I don't really know this Oxford team. And they had a pair of centre harps. I think Gilchrist, Phil Gilchrist was one. And what's the other one, Darren Purs? It could have been, although I've got Matt Elliott in my mind. Matt Elliott said another option, and that's maybe more likely. And I'm quite sure that whenever it was Elliott,

I said Gilchrist and vice versa, almost through the entirety of the evening. And I remember thinking, and this is ridiculous, especially since you and I are essentially contemporaries, it's not like you needed mothering. And if you did need mothering, it wasn't gonna be by me. But I remember feeling a sort of onus to be good and get it right because John was there

and I needed to be sort of setting some sort of example. And as the game went through thinking, I'm not really setting a very good example here because I'm actually shouting the wrong names. But there you are. I think, again, we got through it. We stayed alive. And by the way, Robbie Earl is a smashing fellow and he would have been good company. We've got another email from Andrew in Edinburgh, which I think very much feeds into this, Peter.

And, you know, I'll be interested to hear your response to this. But he asked the question, Andrew, I wonder which commentators inspired you in your youth or as you entered the profession? He says, I'm old enough to recall the glorious Brian Butler and Peter Jones, when Brackett's second half only commentaries featured on Radio 2. Their broadcasts from European matches

seemed to be delivered via a telephone line, commentaries featured on Radio 2. Their broadcasts from European matches seemed to be delivered via a telephone line but this lent them an authenticity and exoticism. Do you agree that a certain sense of distance has been lost in modern times by the use of digital cleaner sound? And he says many thanks for a tremendously warm and enlightening podcast. So Peter, you can answer the first part of that in terms of who inspired you in a broadcasting sense and in a football commentary sense. And I suspect that those two names

will be very much to the fore. I am very much in the same camp as your correspondent, John. As a teenager, and again, this is not an exaggeration, this is a literal truth, on a Saturday afternoon I locked my bedroom door so that my parents could not stand between me and Sport on 2. They were the iconic voices, Peter Jones and Brian Butler. And that detail that again your correspondent notes about second half commentary only that was an exciting moment in my Saturday afternoon when we all knew what the big game was actually and which case they were going to for second half

commentary but they weren't allowed contractually to reveal it until 3 o'clock until the game kicked off because the feeling was that if we knew what game was going to be on the radio on Saturday afternoon we wouldn't turn up and watch it so the presenter of sport on two, whoever it was, Jim Rosenthal, whatever, at three o'clock would say and now it's time to reveal where we're going to be for our second half commentary and let's hear from Peter Jones and we get today we've come to Anfield on the banks of the River Mersey and and you was exciting. That was the game.

That's the game we're going to get. But those two were in their own very separate distinctive ways just utterly brilliant. And they had the art of radio commentary and description down to the finest of fine art. Peter Jones with that lilting sort of Welsh baritone, his use of dynamics, he was what I would call a mood broadcaster. You knew how to feel when he was telling you from the very highest moments,

of course, to his tragically iconic piece of broadcasting around the Hillsborough disaster which for me remains probably his Sports Report piece that day. Perhaps the greatest 50 seconds of sports news broadcasting there has ever, ever been. He was brilliant and it's a great sadness to me that I never met him. And Brian Butler, who worked with him, I mean, again, it was so much about his voice, wasn't it? Whereas Peter Jones was this Welsh baritone, Brian Butler's voice, in old fashioned terms, was a cigar smoker's voice. I've never heard anyone with a voice like Brian's.

It was remarkably individual, wasn't it? It was, and all of us, all of us, and I certainly include myself here, and I'm sure you two would include yourselves, in those climactic moments, in the massive match-winning goal moments, there is a danger, even in our relative maturity, of squeaking, you know what I mean?

I mean, my goodness me, Brian Butler never got anywhere near squeaking, you know what I mean? I mean, my goodness me, Brian Butler never got anywhere near squeaking, he was about three octaves sub squeaking, you know, when Maradona scored that great goal, you know, which he did so brilliantly, and is perhaps his most memorable piece of commentary. He had a sort of balance and a poise. His set pieces were absolutely brilliant, his use of words and it feels so old fashioned

now but they used to be every Friday night on the 645 Sports Desk, Brian Butler's look ahead to the weekend's football which was a two, three, four minute piece and he spent a day crafting it and nobody has time to do that sort of thing anymore but it was a beautiful piece of work. Exactly. He made it fascinating to listen to because of his turn of phrase. And I have to say that one of my great regrets is that I never met him and I should have met him.

I think I've told you both this story before, but it was a match when Brian, I think, must have been there writing for the Daily Telegraph or whoever it was he was writing for and it was at Charlton. And I was in my very, very early days there reporting on the match. And I remember after the match going out, walking back to the station and seeing Brian walking about 15 yards ahead of me.

And I thought, shall I catch him up and have a word and introduce myself? Shall I do that? And I thought, oh, no, he won, he won't want to be bothered with that. So I kept on walking. So I walked 15 yards behind him all the way to the station and never spoke to him. And of course he then died tragically early. And I really, really wish that I had caught up

and spoken to him. Just taking you back, Peter, as well to that young lad who locked the bedroom door on a Saturday afternoon and just plugged in and listened. Were you studying even then? Did you have thoughts in your mind that that was what you wanted to do? Were you listening to commentators and thinking I like that, you know, not so keen on that? That is a really interesting question Alistair because consciously no I wasn't. I was just a little boy excited by football. But I do know that I was as entranced by the magic of the broadcast as I was by the magic of the football.

I would have loved a situation like this that took me behind the curtain and explained to me how it all worked. And I was just drawn in by that whole thing. These, not just Brian Butler and Peter Jones, but Peter Lorenzo, you know, all of those guys who became Bill Bothwell up in the North, you know, who became part of my consciousness. And I knew who'd be at each game because, you know, they all had their patch. And I had no means by which to critique them. Certainly not at that stage of my life. For me, they were all wonderful. But if there was that element of looking and listening and learning, it was simply that

I wanted to know how it all happened and how they got there. But if you're asking, was it my first career move to lock my bedroom door? No, it absolutely wasn't, because that was it. That was that would have been a fantasy. And if somebody had told me the fantasy would in some sense come to pass. Wow. What an exciting teenage period that would have been. But I know that you listened, obviously, then to Sports Report. So the famous music Sports Report on a Saturday afternoon.

And writing pieces for Sports Report was right in your wheelhouse, wasn't it? Yeah, to me, it was the greatest privilege. It was the greatest. Wow, I'm going to be on Sports Report. And it was it was the most important piece of work every week. And this is not being, you know, better in my day sort of old man thing. I feel the poorer without that to listen to now and without the capacity, of course, to

do that sort of work. But time has moved on and so on. And mention Brian Butler, listen, it's the height of arrogance to quote yourself, but I suppose like everybody, I remember my first Sports Report piece, which was a game between Crystal Palace and Stoke in the second division when I was still on the local radio desk and I got, you know, I got a game and I was so excited. And I remember doing a piece, John Inverdale was the presenter and Stoke played in purple that day. And I did doing a piece, John Inverdale was the presenter, and Stoke played in purple that day.

And I did a piece around the fact that Stoke played in episcopal purple. And you know, I was brought up in a vicarage, so I know that sort of word. And so anyway, Brian Butler, the following week when he came into the sports room and I was doing a shift, and when Brian Butler came up to me and said, Episcopal, well done. Whoa. And that to me was like being touched by the gods, you know. By the Pope himself?

By the Pope, exactly, exactly. Let's not beat about the bush. If you love words, and you two do, and I do as well, those 40, 50 second pieces were a chance to show off and I love that showcase. And obviously being broadcasters we all love words but you two particularly strike me as real wordsmiths. I mean you really relish the use of the English language and lots of it

just flows naturally. And some of it as all commentators, you think about a game coming up, don't you? And you think about phrases you might need or, or use. But I do sense, Peter, with you and with John, that that's something you, you enjoy. And I think people who listen to you really enjoy as well? Well it's true I love words ABB, I always have. I do though often say this that words have been my best friend and my worst enemy in a sense because yes they enable you to hopefully come up with some nice stuff but equally and they're not wrong by the way, this is a fair criticism, there are people who say, just speak the language normally, will you? You know, and shut up.

And I sort of... I get that. I do understand that. And it's not a bad thing to have that criticism, because you do need that check. Otherwise, you just disappear into yourself. Because you're not actually broadcasting for your own benefit, you're broadcasting for the benefit of the listener or the viewer. And so that is a useful check, but I suppose an awareness of that, coupled hopefully with an ability to come up with a word or a phrase once in a

while should work out in a reasonably balanced way. I remember a great piece of advice I had from Gordon Turnbull, who was our head of radio sport I think for all of us possibly Ali I think yeah yeah I remember in my very very very early days Gordon saying to me and suggesting to read as widely as you can and he said challenge yourself read literature and novels that you wouldn't normally read and pick up phrases and I always in fact there's a young commentator I spoke to this week, Ernie Bratherton, who I had a nice chat on the phone with earlier this week,

who is writing his very early days. And I passed on the same piece of advice to him because I felt it was such a good piece of advice just to do that and think about phrases. And when you're reading books, think, do you know, I could use that. Absolutely. Actually, John, I'm not as voracious a reader as I should be. And I think that is a very, very good piece of advice. Funnily enough, cryptic crosswords, they keep my brain ticking over as well.

I think that's a great one as well. And it's not a bad thing. And I do think also also and this is a rather plainer more obvious piece of advice, listen to other people. You know, I could use that. I don't mean word for word but I could borrow from that commentator that means of dealing with that moment. You know, I think you have to be broad minded enough to do that. Listen Peter, this podcast is called The Commentator's View. You know, what is the best commentator's view you've had? I have to say, being in the commentary box at the top of the stands at the Open Championship, and we don't actually have a commentary box

anymore, but that's disappeared. But in the days that we did, that would be such a privileged position to be in. Yeah, I can't think of many better than that. I mean, obviously we'll come on to football, I guess, in a moment. I did in my local radio days at Radio Leeds, I used to follow Yorkshire home in a way. And I remember being in the old turret at Lord's and thinking, gosh, the greats have sat in here. And that was it. The only thing I think at Lord's is it's actually better now in the new media stand because

you have a view of the pavilion. Of that, yeah. No, that's true. And listen, it's obviously, you've been in that one, have you, John? Yeah, I have. Not to work. I've been there with colleagues. Been in that a look, yeah.

No, I get that. In a footballing sense, of course, now working as you do in the TV world, you do tend to have the best spot, don't you? Whereas we still only occasionally will have the best spot. So when you are heading to wherever it is, which is the one where you think that's exactly where I would want to be as a commentator? If people ask my favourite ever, it's Real Madrid. And at the moment I'm not working in the Champions League so I listen with envy when you guys are talking to me from Real Madrid.

And I know it's been updated since I last went, so there you are. But whether that's to do with the view, although from a television perspective the view is absolutely idyllic, or to do with just the sense of place and history. And you walk in there and you look at the stands and they go up to the sky like a wedding cake and all of that sort of thing, tear after white tear. That's a beautiful place and you sort of feel like

I mustn't fail here. So that would be the one. But I mean, like you domestically now, I'm so familiar with them all that I suppose I take them for granted and really shouldn't. You see, Highbury used to be the best from a television perspective. And actually that press box at Highbury

where you did the radio from was okay. Although there was a bit of a... We were very left of center. Just left of center, exactly. We were very left of center, I think. If I remember rightly. That's right, yes. It was, John, you're exactly right. And I know, I mean, I remember rightly. That's right. Yes, it was John you're exactly right

And I know I mean I remember from from my radio times and you guys will perhaps have it only once or twice more in your lives if that and the famous good as some pillar, you know at Everton which is a wonderful place to broadcast from but has no legroom for anyone John who's over six feet tall and also Has a pillow which partially obscures one penalty area doesn't it? And I so miss that and I still quote it to people in television who you know we're spoilt as you say with the best positions and I say I really miss that because it takes away an excuse. If you've got an excuse, oh sorry I got that goal wrong the pillow was in the way and there are no excuses anymore because

they're all so good. We're taking it with us, Peter. We're taking the pillar with us to Brammy Moore Dock. Nice, nice. All right, so. You mentioned Jimmy. I had a great one at Goodison with Jimmy. It was the classic goal at that end

in front of the Gladys Street stand. And ball comes in and players, players, Everton players and opposition players all come together, the corner comes in and they all come together behind the pillar, ball deflected in the net and I'm, I have no idea, I have no idea who is scored. Someone has made contact with this so I'm doing the as we do talking about Everton have scored, Everton have scored, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Still thinking who on earth is it who's got, and Jimmy, Jimmy was with me.

And I handed it to Jimmy and Jimmy said, yes, you know, and at that point, whoever was in the studio producing the match back at base, said down the line, it's Jackie Elker, if it was Jackie Elker, I can't remember. And Jimmy said, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jackie Elker it was, Jackie Elker it was. So, Phil Jackie Elker, Jimmy said, yeah, Jackie Elker. I thought I was right.

Magnificent. Right, emails please, always, tcv at bbc.co.uk. You can now send us voice notes as well. The number to dial for that is 08289369. So we've had this question in from Wales. Hi guys, it's Phil from Pembrokeshire here. Love the podcast. I was just wondering about commentators curse. When I am watching sport and the commentators say my team or sports person can't lose it from here or there is no way back for the opposition and then on tender hooks dreading the commentators curse for the rest of the game even though it's just a coincidence. But it has happened a few times when the opposition

is scored straight after or golfer gets a double bogey or a cricket team loses a few wickets and the innings collapse. I was just wondering if it's happened to you when you have said anything and then the commentator's curse has struck. And are you conscious of the curse when commentating for the more superstitious fan out there, or is it just a myth? Thanks. Well, what I'd say to Phil is, I actually had Jonathan Agnew talking about this this week. He mentioned the commentator's curse. And I think in cricket, it's probably peak commentators curse in cricket because you will be talking about a batsman who's having a great innings

and the next thing they get out. But my answer to that, to Phil, would be, I was conscious of almost trying to work it the other way around in the summer, where if you remember Phil Foden at the Euros did everything but score, everything but score. And I just thought, well, he is going to score.

At some point he's going to score. So every match we came into with England, the further they went in the tournament, I was thinking, this is the match where he is going to step up and score. So I purposely kept mentioning it, trying to make it work the other way around. Saying, well, he's done this, he's had that goal disallowed, he hit the post, he hit the bar.

And I must have done that every single match as the tournament went on. And it didn't work. So the commentators, because the other way around didn't work. I get that, John. I think we are, ABB I'm sure will concur, I think we all are wary of it. Not because we're overly concerned about the sports people involved,

but because it'll reflect on us, you know. And I suppose it's not necessarily the curse, but just the worry of calling it too soon. And actually we're into that sort of territory now with Liverpool at the top of the Premier League. You know that I did the Liverpool game as one or other of you guys would have done at the weekend and indeed Newcastle the other night.

And you're sort of saying to yourself, to what extent can I say Liverpool are effectively champions or not? In the knowledge that if you're the one who actually decides to go all the way and say listen Liverpool have won it then you are vulnerable to being done and I've got actually I have got a sort of example from this season which I'm a bit sensitive about funnily enough but I think ABB was there. Amorim's first game with Manchester United. Yeah, at Portman Road. At Portman Road. And they score after a minute and 20 seconds.

And when that ball went in, Rashford scored, and my words were, that's utopian. Now, at that stage it was, you know, but there is an accusation that he went too soon. Now, this is a slight, you know, kind of tilt on the conversation we're having. But I would argue, why wouldn't I, in self-defense, at that stage, 80 seconds into his thing,

we were all waiting to see what Amorim's team was. He'd gone with his back three, we knew that. And his big two choices in terms of team setup were to play Ahmad at right wing back and Rashford at center forward. Those were the two big news items that day. Inside the first minute and 20 seconds, Ahmad ran up the right wing and crossed for Rashford to score.

Now, to my mind, that was utopian. Utopian literally means it couldn't have gone any better. It was absolutely perfect. And of course what has happened since is somewhat sub-utopian. And so whether that's commentators curse or not, it's a kind of variation on the theme. But I would argue there Peter, that is a beautiful way to describe that moment, rather than saying which is probably what I said. I probably screamed Rashford extremely loudly and said, would you believe it? You mentioned Liverpool's current position, Peter,

and we are going to get into that a little later on when we dig into our great glossary of football commentary. And we're also going gonna have lots of correspondence that we're going to catch up on. We seem to say that every week and then hardly scratch the surface of it. But we will. The Football Daily podcast.

On BBC Sounds. The 72 Plus. On The Football Daily. I'm Aaron Paul. And I'm Joby Mackinac. And on Wednesdays on the Football Daily, we bring you 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Life Sport.

As we'll get stuck into the latest from the Football League and beyond. We're punching well above our weight already. We're a part-time team in a full-time league. Hopefully we can stay in the league in the ASDA. We're in a great position at the moment and long may that continue. That's 72 Plus, the EFL podcast

only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. It is time for Clash of the Commentators. Yes, we're in exhibition territory again this week as well. Peter, have you been warned about Clash of the Commentators. Yes, we're in exhibition territory again this week as well. Peter, have you been warned about Clash of the Commentators? You know what's coming here? Vaguely, vaguely, in that I listened to the Jackie Oatley episode. Yeah, okay, okay, very similar.

And we thought this week it is only right, given that you two go way back, commentated together for the BBC, we do a battle of the heavyweights this week. So this is John Murray against Peter Drury in Clash of the Commentators. I'm going to give you a category and you then have 30 seconds to give as many correct answers as you possibly can. Who would like to go first today John? What do we think? What I do want is, and lurking just off shot with Peter, is George Cummins, our producer. What I do not want is George to be helping Peter. That is my number one.

He knows his next cup of coffee depends on it. George is honest as the day is long. I've got no suspicions there. Right, so who is going to go first? Whoever goes second obviously has to unplug their headphones and just turn their head away. Who's up first? You get the choice Peter as the guest. You go first John and I'll disappear. Okay, right, Peter's gone, Peter's gone. Right John, this links to Liverpool walking away with the title this season. They've gone 13 points clear at the top of the Premier League, so we're basing this week's category around the number 13. Friday the 13th? No. I want you

to name as many teams as you can to have won at least 13 top flight titles in any of the top 13 men's leagues in Europe according to the UEFA coefficient. I knew you're going to enjoy that. We're basically looking for serial title winners, so 13 titles or more, top flight titles, and they're meant to come from the top 13 leagues. But I think by the very nature of your guessing you'll you'll hit those leagues anyway so that that that is all we're gonna give you and your time starts now okay Manchester United Liverpool Arsenal Bayern Munich Celtic and Rangers, Sporting Benfica, Juventus, Porto as well, Juventus, Milan, Inter, Barcelona and Arun Ray on the trade. Wow, you've absolutely smashed that. Apart from Celtic and Rangers don't count because Scotland are...

Oh, they're not in the big leagues. They're 14th. The Scottish Premiership is 14th in the UEFA coefficient. They're not in the top 13, right? But here you go, listen. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I make that 12 correct answers. Oh, well, shame not to get 13.

Yeah. So Peter needs 13 to win it. Yeah, he does. Yeah, so there we go. Well done, John. That's really good. Really, really good. Excellent.

Right, let's get Peter back. George has given it the nod. We're good to go, George. We're good to go. You're pleased with your performance there, John? I think that will be a good contest. Yeah, yes, I do as well, actually. I do as well. Peter, I sense, is a clear thinker under pressure,

which is what this game is all about. Would you describe yourself as a clear thinker under pressure, Peter? No, I'm a panicker. I'd be terrible on a television quiz show. Terrible. If I could reassure you Peter, there's nothing to worry about with this question. Oh, isn't there? Oh good. You can relax. I was just thinking I felt like one of the contestants on Mr and Mrs there. Do you remember where they used to have to go into the booth?

That's right. You beat Derek Beatty. I was going to say, did George put on some relaxing music? Yes! Right, here we go then Peter. So this does actually link to Liverpool running away with a title this season because this week they've gone 13 points clear as you all well know at the top of the Premier League. So this week's category is based around the number 13. We need you to name as many teams as you can to have won at least 13 top flight

titles in any of the top 13 men's leagues in Europe according to the UEFA coefficient. Now I know you're not going to strictly know which the top 13 leagues are but you'll have a pretty good guess of the teams we're talking about here. I'm not going to tell you how many John got right. That's all we're going to give you. So you're looking for serial winners. So teams that have won at least 13 top flight titles in the top 13 men's leagues in Europe. Your time starts now.

Manchester United, Liverpool, Rangers, Celtic, Porto, Sporting Lisbon, Benfica, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid perhaps, Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Paris Saint-Germain, Marseille, Lille, Saint-Etienne, Lyon, Panathinaikos, Olympiakos, Besiktas, Galatasaray, Fenerbatchi. That is another sensational performance. I've been furiously ticking the answers away here. So I can tell you Peter, John got 12 and so delightfully, in a category all about the number 13 you needed 13 to win. I'll add them up as I go. I mean you're dipping your toe into Turkey and Greece I think might have got you over the line here but let me tell you no French team you wasted time on France no French team has won

13 titles or more Paris Saint-Germain. Do you know I knew PSG was a stupid one they've only been going 10 minutes haven't they? Yeah that's right and Atletico 11, so that was incorrect as well. Okay, so here we go. You didn't say Arsenal, but you did say Manchester United and Liverpool, that's two. You said Juve, Inter and Milan, which John said as well, that takes you to five. Real Madrid and Barca takes you to seven. You didn't say Bayern. You didn't go to the Netherlands, you got the three Portuguese, Benfica, Porto and Sporting takes you to 10. Yes you are there.

Fernand Bacce, Galatasaray and Besiktas takes you to 13. And actually with a real flourish, your Olympiakos and your Panathinaikos, 15 correct answers. It was a gamble John, it was a gamble because they might not have been in a big enough league might they? I got done by Rangers and Celtic although you said you said Rangers and Celtic. I said Rangers and Celtic. Do they not count? No, apparently not. No, no, sorry they didn't count but so Scottish Premiership is 14th in UEFA's coefficient in terms of league ranking. Olympiakos have the most top flight titles, Olympiakos have the most top flight titles, sorry, Olympiakos have the most top flight titles amongst all of them. 47 out of that list, 47 top flight titles

for Olympiakos. That is the best performance I think we have had. You've lived up to your billing there Peter. Thank you. I got very lucky. Which will be checked out of my gravestone. He got very lucky. That was an excellent question. Which will be chipped off my gravestone. He got very lucky. Excellent, excellent question. Well done for winning the exhibition match. Thank you, John. It cost me nothing as well, so I'm quite pleased about that.

I'm just wondering whether George has got a shield for me. A charity shield. Confidence knocker I hope, though, John, for my next game against you. That might, you know... No, I think that will have boosted my confidence. Fair enough. If anything. I think, and I know we're going to do this weekend's football quickly, John, I think

Peter's really going to enjoy the great glossary of football commentary. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. When we get to that. No, I heard some of this before, and this is the very stuff of life. So stand by for the glossary, everyone. But we need to run through our five live commentary matches for this weekend, don't we? Which begin on Friday night, the FA Cup, Aston Villa against Cardiff. And then on Saturday, 12.15 kick-offs, we've got Crystal Palace against Millwall,

which obviously has a derby element to it. And at the same time on the BBC Sport website, you've got the derby match between Preston and Burnley, the two championship teams at three o'clock, Ali, the commentary is? Bournemouth against Wolves. Yeah, just down the road for me. So I'm delighted about that. And Rob Green's going to be with you for that, isn't he? 5.45 on Saturday night, Manchester City against the giant killers Plymouth. Conor McNamara and Izzy Christiansen will provide the commentary on that. My one commentary this weekend is at Newcastle in the early kickoff on Sunday. So Paul Robinson's alongside me for that and then on Monday night we have Nottingham Forest against Ipswich which will be Conor McNamara and Clinton Morrison providing

the commentary on Five Live but obviously we'll have it all covered and next week of course Ali European matches as well. Yeah off to Bruges which I'm really looking forward to actually I mean for the football but also for Bruges, which I'm really looking forward to, actually. I mean, for the football, but also for Bruges. I thought you were about to say for beer. Well, yeah, very strong beer over there, actually. Exactly, beer and Bruges go hand in hand. They do provide that there as well, as a happy coincidence.

But I think they're decent, Bruges, having seen them against Manchester City. Do you know what, John, I made the classic mistake the other day, mercifully not on air, where I said to someone in a press box or whatever, I said, oh, Vettel have got a decent draw there, haven't they? And they reminded me that Bruges had already beaten them. So there you are. But also that was, so I commentate on that game, that was a bizarre game.

That was Tyrone Minks picking the ball up. Yeah, that's right. Of course it was yeah of course it was yeah that's an early start isn't it the the brouche yeah 545 on Tuesday on Tuesday and then we've got PSV Arsenal coming to that 8 o'clock you're in Paris back to Paris again with with Liverpool which I think is a really interesting tie and then I think we're doing Sociedad Manchester United aren't we? I was chatting to our producer Rob Schofield who is very much looking forward to getting out there.

I've never been to watch Sossier-Dad play at home but at San Sebastian Bascon. But I'm told that getting there is quite hard work to get there but once you're there... You could go by ship, couldn't you? Well they might be, John. You're such a romantic, John. You mean container ship. Would you go third class, below stairs? You could stow away. Stow away, exactly. David Moyes Derby, isn't it?

It is. Anyway, that's all to come and as we always say podcasts are all very well and very entertaining and fill your time beautifully but there is nothing like the joy of listening to live sport on the radio and indeed live football on the radio so if you're a youngster and you've never done that, try it out. You'll not regret it. But now it is time for the great glossary of football commentary. And we are as ever very, very keen to hear your suggestions and how you feel about what we've included

and what we've not included. So do write to us, tcv at bbc.co.uk. We should start with this email from Cameron, who says, please could you specify if the glossary terms should be only football or only sport related as some of your decisions are inconsistent. For example, you can absolutely say there is no love lost between people, nations, CEOs of supermarkets. It's getting to be like the handball rule.

Thanks. Loving the podcast. I totally and utterly agree with Cameron here. I think our glossary is the great glossary of football commentary. So I was actually commentating at Wembley on England's women against Spain on Wednesday night and Izzy Christensen described a cross coming into the penalty area between backpedaling defenders and onrushing goalkeeper as into the corridor of uncertainty. We then got into a conversation about the corridor of uncertainty and I said to my mind that is actually more cricket than football although it does work for a description of a cross like that. But to my mind, oh, we might have some dissenting voices here, to my mind you see, I don't think that

goes into the great glossary of football commentary because I think it belongs in in other sports as well. I think we should be looking for uniquely football, that's where I stand on it. And on this theme, you might remember a couple of weeks back, Solomon in Australia added last-ch chance saloon to our glossary as a unique football term, but Mark in Melbourne isn't so sure. Whilst I absolutely agree that this is used in football commentary, I like the phrase so much I've actually used it outside this context, in relationship context as a sort of escalation if you like from in the dog house, i.e. he's in the last chance saloon as far as she's concerned.

And then in a work context, when someone is stuffed up either by making a mistake or not doing something they should have, they're in the last chance saloon with that supervised manager, client or customer. I think the phrase definitely has potential outside of footballing context. So thank you to Mark in Melbourne for that. And Alexandra as well hasn't held back on the email. She says, hello, I absolutely love your podcast. I listen while I'm walking to get my paper in the morning. However, you have added a couple of phrases to the glossary recently that are not exclusive to either football or sport in general,

so should not be included. Part and parcel, which came from our colleague Phil Wye. Part and parcel, she says, is an expression used in all sorts of life and descriptions, workplace, relationships, etc. For example, stress was part and parcel of the job. It's a common idiom. And drinking in the last chance saloon, again, an idiom that is used in all sorts of common speech and was certainly not invented by sports commentators. For example, a company on its last legs, an unreliable friend, partner, a relationship, a poor performing employee. In sport, it is used much more in cricket than football for a player who hasn't scored enough runs or taken enough wickets to be

picked. That's my rant. I look forward to the next episode. So that's what Alexandra said. Drinking in the last chance saloon seems to have really irked people. Clearly people are inflamed. Passions are inflamed by your glossary. See, I think drinking in the last chance salute is an absolute classic to be put in the glossary. It is true also John, I don't know what your rules are and perhaps you don't either. There are no rules. So in that sense, your correspondent is correct that it is very much used outside of football but it is certainly used inside of football as well

Yeah, I I think we've been too generous I really think we should be looking for football specific Terms because I think it'll narrow down the field and it'll make it a little bit more special to get in there doesn't mean you Can't use I love last chance saloon. I judge it's it's fantastic. But I think they want us to be more ruthless and say no. So what would you say, one has just hit me full in the face. I hope you haven't had it already. But what about postage stamp, which has clearly been used outside of football in the context of a postage stamp.

And indeed the fifth, is it the fifth at Troon? Oh yes, correct, yeah very good. The postage stamp, I think it's the seventh John. Seventh, you're right. And yes it has a very specific meaning in football doesn't it? Is that permitted or is that not permitted? Well that's for discussion. We maybe need Ian Dennis to be back as the ultimate arbiter.

When you're talking about a postage stamp as in a literal postage stamp. It's the eighth hole at Tro stamp. It's the eighth hole. It's the eighth. Yeah. Okay. We were only, when were we there? We were there last year. Last summer, weren't we? So we should have got that right. No, when you're talking about a literal postage stamp, that is an object. I mean, that's fine.

The postage stamp in football, I think I would allow that into the glossary because that is very specific to football for that shot right into the apex, into the top corner. I think I would allow that, yeah. You'll enjoy, Peter, one of the early ones of these. Was it someone from Brazil said in Brazil they refer to that as up where the owl sleeps? Oh, now we're talking. That's a great one. Next time I get one of those I'm commentating I'm going to say, and he's shot right into

the eaves. The eaves. The eaves. Denesie Whitstable. Beautiful place Whitstable. Yes. Great cricket club there. And I think I'm right in saying when you get the train from St Pancras to West Ham it does go on to Whitstable. Goes on to Whitstable, Favisham, all those. Broadstairs? Broadstairs yeah. Dickens place. It's another class of the commentators going on here, just name the train stop so you can get... I go and watch Kent play cricket at Canterbury as you know ABB, so I go on that line.

And, um, Whitstable Cricket Club actually is the cricket club of Joe Denley of Kent and England. There you are. Very good. Um, Denise in Whitstable, on Sunday against Manchester City, Mo Salah scored in the 14th minute from a corner. I want to pick up on something Dion Dublin said. So Mo Salah comes to the near post, he goes beyond the six-yard line, and he just rolls it over his left shoulder to the penalty spot, and who's alive in there but the man of the moment, Salah, hits the target. It does take a huge deflection but that is right off the training ground,

City have got court called. Yeah, so that was that brilliantly worked clever corner, wasn't it, from Liverpool to score that first goal. So Denise says straight off the training ground. I've never been 100% sure what the phrase actually means. I presume it means they've obviously practiced this routine a lot. I definitely think it's one for the glossary, says Denise. So discuss.

Well, I used to love it when Barry Davis used to say, it really used to stick in my mind when Barry Davis, when I was watching football in my early days, would always say, well, that's clearly one that they worked on on the training ground this week. Barry Davis, who incidentally has been inducted this week into the National Football Museum Hall of Fame, which I was delighted to see. Where was the German defence? Man, that wasn't in football, was it? But I can also hear Barry Davis saying that, John.

And I must say, first of all, I would say of Dion Dublin that that was a really good piece of football commentary because he gave us an absolute picture of what happened at that excellent corner. So applause for Dion and straight off the training ground, if I may as a humble guest, suggest is absolutely worthy of a place in the glossary. Agreed.

Mark has also sent us that suggestion and he says it usually applies to a set piece, particularly a successful free-kick routine resulting in a goal. I don't think he says, I've heard that in another sporting context. So returning to the subject of Liverpool's seemingly almost impregnable position at the top of the Premier League. Dougie Graham in North Northumbria or North Northumberland as I like to call it says there is a phrase which I don't quite agree with. I was watching Chelsea women play on the BBC a few weeks ago and heard them being referred to as Champions Elect. This to me doesn't make

sense as the champions aren't elected by a vote but by their own merit on acquiring the most points. The first time I heard Champions Elect being used in football was referring to Manchester City when they were dominating the league. However, if a vote is required, my vote is for Newcastle United to be champions. That way we might win something. LOL. Dookie says, it's great to hear all your anecdotes keep up that good work. Champions are parent. Champions are parent, perhaps we should say. Champions are parent. And also when you think about it, a president-elect has already been elected. So therefore there is no doubt there, is there? Absolutely, John, which is why also because he or she hasn't been we say

heir apparent, don't we? Heir apparent. So I think that is a very fair observation actually. Last one for today comes from Thailand, so listeners all around the world, Bob in Thailand. By the way, the number John for the voice notes 08000 289 369, this voice note comes from Bob in Thailand. Attackers lurking on the edge of the opponent's box are often deemed to be loitering with intent. The only other situation that I can imagine it being used would be as evidence offered

up in a courtroom by a policeman referring to the suspect at the scene of the crime. Keep up the great work on your common truth and on the podcast. That's good. Yes, that is good. Loitering with intent very much falls into the same bracket as brandished, doesn't it? Yeah, correct. Very good. As we've previously discussed, Peter, the only other context I think you would hear

brandished is in a court report referring to a sawn off shotgun. Yeah. Yeah. It's a yellow and red card. Either a yellow and red card are brandished, but so are sawn off shotguns. The trouble is, and it's sometimes a serious problem, John, isn't it?

And Alistair, that we, some of the vernacular we use in football commentary is parallel to that in somewhat less pleasant circumstances. And we sometimes have to be careful of that, but also it's kind of just the way it is. Does loitering with intent, so this is the final question to ask on the glossy, does that get in? Because as Bob has said, that's not just used in football that is used in that, that scenario that he describes two very specific scenarios.

So what do we, I use loitering with intent quite, I like loitering with intent, I do like that. Yeah. Yeah. As a phrase, I think, yeah, I think yes. I'm just too, I'm too allowing. You're too nice, John. That's the problem.

You're too nice. Anyway, I've got to not be nice now because that is the end. Can I ask one very quick question? What was the name, because it was a brilliant name of the young lad you were speaking to this week who's making his way in football commentary was it Ernie? Ernie Bratherton. When you said that name I thought I can hear that in five ten, what a name that is for a commentator let's take you now five live and BBC sound Villa Park Villa against Liverpool with Ernie Bratherton. Yeah well he's got a few

unexpected mentions on here. After a word from Trevor with Ernie Bratherton. Yeah, well, he's got a few unexpected mentions on here. I'm sure we'll... After a word from Trevor Bailey, Ernie Bratherton will take the stage. Yeah, very good. Peter, it has been a pleasure. We could have talked for hours, couldn't we? As we often do, John. As we often do without actually recording it.

Correct. That has been such a joy. Thank you to you both. Honestly, I don't want to be too gushing, but such a privilege to be invited on by two good mates and to have a good old chum wag. Thank you. No, thank you, Peter. Thanks, Peter. We will see you soon. So thank you very much to Peter Drury. Ali, we will be back next week with Mr Ian Dennis, back in Tull.

And the next episode on this feed will be Football Daily Presents, Football on Trial, the Manchester City Chargers. So a teaser of that podcast, which you can already find as its own thing on BBC Sounds. Just search for Football on Trial. And if you've missed any episodes of the commentators view you can find all of them on the football daily feed as well.

I got very lucky then. I was done by Greece and Turkey. Turkey, you both would have thrashed me at that. I didn't even think of Venturing down there. Well you've got anything for Stour Bookerest? No, I don't think they'll be in the top 13 though. No one went Netherlands, Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord, Belgium Anderlecht and Club Bruges or Club Brukker, Sparta, Prague and Slavia Prague in Czechia. Not Russia? AEK Athens, no, not in the top 13. Rosenborg in Norway and Austria squeeze in as the 13th league in the coefficient Rapid Vienna, Austria Vienna and Red Bull Salzburg.

If you'd come up with Rapid Wien and Austria Wien, I would have walked out. I would have walked out. I would have left there and then. Fantastic. Very good, well done. What does it take to go racing in the fastest cars in the world? Oscar Piastri. Your head's trying to get rid of one way, your body's trying to go another. Lance Stroll. It's very extreme in the sense of how close you're racing wheel to wheel. We've been given unprecedented access to two of the most famous names in Formula One,

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