Football Daily - The Commentators’ View: Stonewall penalties & Skjoldar/Vats/Vik/Vind

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

John Murray, Ian Dennis & Ali Bruce-Ball talk commentary life. From Ian’s penchant for pies at Celtic to whether the ‘dull’ Premier League should have play-offs to make it more interesting. One listener sets a new record for clubs with a slash in their names, and there’s a whole heap of controversy in a Clash of the Commentators basement battle. Plus, BBC Sport chief football writer Phil McNulty joins for the Great Glossary of Football Commentary.02:55 Who ate all the pies? 05:40 Would Arsenal fans rather have Saka or Gabriel? 11:35 5 Live’s weekend commentaries 14:10 Should the ‘dull’ Premier League have play-offs? 20:35 A new record for clubs with a slash in their names 28:10 Controversy in Clash of the Commentators 37:20 Phil McNulty joins for the Great GlossaryBBC Sounds / 5 Live commentaries this weekend: Fri 2000 England women v Belgium in the UEFA Women's Nations League, Fri 1915 Wales women v Denmark on the BBC Sport website, Sat 1500 Crystal Palace v Brighton in the Premier League, Sat 1730 Aston Villa v Nottingham Forest in the Premier League, Sun 1400 Fulham v Liverpool in the Premier League, Sun 1400 Brentford v Chelsea on Radio 5 Sports Extra, Sun 1400 Tottenham v Southampton on the BBC Sport website, Sun 1630 Man Utd v Man City in the Premier League.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Welcome to The Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One like never before. I'm Matt Magendie and thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. This week, Matt will take you on a deep dive into race strategy. He speaks to members of the Red Bull team that probably wake up in a cold sweat shouting, Box, box!

I still get nervous before a race All it takes is one safety car up in odd time and it completely changes the complexion of things Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the inside track wherever you get your podcasts Music Radio Podcasts. The Commentators View with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis on the Football Daily. Hello again this is the Commentators View where we take you with us on our journey as five live commentators. I'm Alistair Bruce Ball we have a full house again this week because joining me today are our correspondent the BBC's football correspondent John Murray and the the senior football reporter Ian Dennis all

present and correct and all with mic muffs applied to lip mics and actually John I saw you this morning so I better explain what a mic muff is very quickly so it's this sort of protective spongy covering that we put over our our lip mics that we use to broadcast which basically allow us to promote the Football Daily podcast. So they're light blue and they surround the mouthpiece of the microphone and they've got that little Football Daily emblem on them. Mine sat on my desk for two weeks. I couldn't work how to actually get it onto the lip mic. So I'm now too afraid to take it off. But I saw you very casually, John, almost arrogantly just slipping yours on this morning before the pod so you're clearly Using it only well. Yes. Yeah well first plus the fact that we've quite often had to do that on the road

haven't we when we've been commentating and social media have asked us to put the five live spongy covering Spongy covering I think I saw different I think I saw him play for Dina more Bucharest one time Spongy covering. I think I saw him play for Dino Mo Bucharest one time. How are you Ian? I'm very well. What's the bit at the end where it's almost like an outtake? What do you call that? I call that the Easter egg bit.

Okay, well if you listen back to last week's episode, and I know John doesn't because he doesn't listen to any of the episodes whether he features on them or not but if you listen to the Easter egg bit last week's episode you'll actually hear you struggling to put your muff mic on yeah muff Michael or Mike muff Mike muff thank you if you're new to us play for Miami into Miami no he played for burning he was a Northern Ireland international used to manage Cheltenham and Huddersfield and Barnsley I think you might be getting your doofs and your muffs mixed up there And if you're new to the podcast the commentators view is all about life as a five live Commentator as you probably guessed the football we watch the words we use so the language of football is a big part of this podcast the the great glossary of

So the language of football is a big part of this podcast the the great glossary of football commentary will feature again as always We've got a guest actually coming on this morning to talk about that And of course the amazing places that our jobs take us talking of which so you chaps have been busy this week I've got a game tonight. Actually. I'm at Ashton gate tonight So we're recording this Friday morning, and I'm to be watching England's women against Belgium in the Nations League But last we spoke then are you were off to? Scotland to Celtic to sample the pies yeah, just to set the scene at halftime right we're on the front row of the press box Two seats from the left. I've got Dave the engineer I've got Gavin Wallace the producer myself and then Pat and evidence pats on my right right on the very edge

So pass at halftime says I'll go get the pies the producer, myself and then Pat Nevin and Pat's on my right, right on the very edge. So Pat at half time says, I'll go get the pies. And then he comes back and he was in a playful mood with Mr. Nevin last week as ever. Anyway, he goes, I've got the pies and a little bit like a magician would produce something out of his magic hat. He gives one to Dave, he gives one to Gavin Gavin he places the other one in front of him and then I'm looking and I'm looking like it I'm ready now I'm starting to salivate and not only does he produce one but he produces two pies much to his hilarity and in fact we had great fun last week because and we won't

go down the avenue but I made mr. Chapman, Hare Chapman, Corpse on Air, which we were all quite pleased with in the commentary position. And if you want to listen back to that, go back to about just before the second half starts on BBC Sounds last Saturday of the FA Cup time between Fulham and Crystal Palace. So we were already having, we're in a jovial mood, but part of that, by the way, was your delivery,

which was terrific. Well, talking in terms of that, by the way, was your delivery, which was terrific. Well talking in terms of delivery, Pat, I think was quite pleased the fact that he went one and then he went two. And I tried to devour the second one just before the second half started. I spilled a little bit on my commentary notes, you know, the beef that we were talking about, it wasn't gravy in it. It was just, just pure, just a solid pie. And anyway, I then bravely took a bite,

just as the second half had gone underway and finished it, because Pat was very, very good, he's so accommodating, he gave a really lengthy answer, because he could see this last bit of pie was just staring at me. So mission accomplished, and the pies were as beautiful as ever, Ali. Did you not have like sticky, greasy, gravy hands

all over your mic after handling the pie? There was no gravy, there was no greasy fingers. I'd got a serviette to wipe the fingers. Wiped the mic as well? Although, well, I wasn't spluttering into the mic, there wasn't bits of... Pastries. Pie and pastry in the mic. In the mic.

Although what was amusing... You had to have it cleaned. What was amusing is that... My next game was at Arsenal on Tuesday and as I opened my match folder, which still had my Celtic notes in position... You're not going to tell me there's another pie in there. No, no, but there was just a little bit of pastry that was still there. Right, on to your Premier League duties midweek. So Ian, you were at Arsenal, Fulham on Tuesday. John did the Merseyside

derby on Wednesday. Here's a hypothetical question for you. Chris Sutton absolutely hates hypothetical questions, just thinks they're a waste of time, but I've got one for you. So Ian, at Arsenal Tuesday night, obviously Sacher is back, comes off the bench and scores, great story. Gabriel limps off, we now know he's out for the rest of the season. If you were an Arsenal fan and you have the choice of, you know, going into the quarterfinal against Real Madrid, you can either have Saka back fully fit and starting both games and no Gabriel or you can have Gabriel in there starting both games and no Saka, what would you prefer?

Well judging by the ovation that he received on Tuesday and John talks about it being uplifting and John will have, like myself, has interviewed Picaio Saka, he's just such a joy to be in the presence of because he's got this infectious smile. He got such an ovation as he came onto the pitch and then when he scored within seven minutes, I would say the Arsenal supporters would take Bakayosaka because I think they've really missed him and I think he's a potential I mean at Gabriel that combination with Saliba at the back but I think they'd go Sakharova Gabriel. I would say, and I'm with Chris on hypothetical questions,

but I think that the Real Madrid forward line are capable of scoring goals against any defense, whoever's in it, whereas Arsenal are gonna have to score goals in that semi-final, and therefore, you know, they need Bukayo Saka, so probably I'd say Saka. I tell you what will be interesting, Ali, is that going into that game,

bearing in mind that the Merseyside derby was 24 hours later, and Arsenal did what they had to do. So I just got the impression at the end of that game at Anfield, 24 hours later, that Liverpool had cleared a bit of a hurdle, because they'd lost the previous two games before the international break, and now they know they only need 13 points from their remaining eight games. And I now wonder whether Arsenal will focus their team selection on Saturday at Everton with Real Madrid in mind. I think now all of a sudden do Arsenal's priorities shift the fact

that Liverpool have taken another step towards what we all think is inevitable anyway? Yeah, I mean, John will love this, I know, according to the Opta Supercomputer John, Liverpool are now 99% likely to win the title. How about that? So that means that Arsenal have actually... Arsenal's chances have increased since midweek then. Why were they 100% Liverpool? Arsenal I'm sure I read in the supercomputer. They were 0.8% on...

Okay Arsenal are down to 0.7. There's other teams though John who could still win it, were Liverpool to collapse. I honestly say I thought that, I don't think John probably would have seen the film, but you know with Dumb and Dumber, when Jim Carrey... I've actually not seen that film. Where Jim Carrey's character is, I think is it with Mary? I don't know, I've not seen the film. He goes, so you're telling me there's a chance?

I thought John was going to go down that road there. All of a sudden, that's just sprung into my mind. So you're telling me there's a chance? We don't need a supercomputer for that. People can actually work it out for themselves that there's not much chance. And you don't need, it doesn't need to be 0.8 or 0.9 or 1.2%. People know it's only a very very small chance but opt a

Supercomputer we've been talking about Real Madrid commentary incidentally on BBC Radio 5 live next Tuesday actually thinks or predicts that the Arsenal Real Madrid quarterfinal tie is the most evenly contested and they've actually given Arsenal a 52.5% chance of overcoming Real Madrid. Have they? If the Optus supercomputer had had to predict which of you two was going to commentate on the Madrid game first leg and which of you two were going to do Aston Villa PSG, how have you worked that one out?

Is that sort of flip of a coin or is that sort of travel schedules? How do you do that? We did actually have a discussion, didn't we? We did and it's funny because John always thinks that I set the agenda with an 830 start For this podcast what time we got to be finished today. We're gonna be finished by 930. Yeah Who said that time? Well, we'll see if we finish at 930 because it's very rarely that we do but John would set the agenda. So if John said quite rightly as correspondent that he wanted to do, you know, but we did have a discussion. Yeah, we did. Okay, and who's going where?

Well, I thought you were going to say it. Can't remember. Don't both turn up at the same game. What's the percentage chance of us both turning up at the same game? I would say 60. 60 percent for me to turn up at the same game, zero for you. I actually this week have had one of those nightmares where I'm going to the game thinking have I prepped for the right game because I've been trying to get ahead of myself because

obviously Celtic last week, Arsenal on the Tuesday and then Crystal Palace Brighton on the right game because I've been trying to get ahead of myself because obviously Celtic last week Arsenal on the Tuesday and then Crystal Palace Brighton on the Saturday I had this horrible feeling in midweek that I prepped for the wrong game driving to Arsenal I thought you know I brought have I brought really brought my full of notes I've I brought my Crystal Palace notes I hate that uncertainty really throws with in my mind. Have the Celtic notes still got a bit of pie in there? All these worries. I've still not got an answer to who's where next week.

I am going to Paris Saint Germain, Ascensfeller and actually both legs of that and Ian is doing both legs of Arsenal Real Madrid. It wasn't the pies that swung it, it was the little pastries. Oh in Paris, yeah. So, Danny, you're saying this weekend then, so just to throw it forward now, because obviously this podcast comes out on a Friday and people want to know what they're going to be listening to this weekend. Crystal Palace Brighton for you, Saturday 3 o'clock.

I was just looking at the league table this morning. Brighton at 8th and they obviously lost to Aston Villa midweek but there's still only four points behind Manchester City in fifth place and we all think fifth is gonna get I mean I think that we might even have that confirmed in the next week or so that fifth place could well mean Champions League football but Crystal Palace aren't that far behind Brighton either. No no no and in fact there is a scenario and this this is complicated and it will depend on where Newcastle United finish

because of the fact that Newcastle are already in Europe because they've won the League Cup so as it currently stands they've got a route into the Conference League but there is a possibility that as far down as eighth could produce European football next season so with that in mind Ali, yes there's still a lot to play for. So Crystal Palace Brighton three o'clock on Saturday we've got full commentary on Aston Villa against Nottingham Forest both of those two looking to get Champions League football next season. Sunday at two o'clock you're gonna have a choice of

listening so the leaders Liverpool are at Fulham. Mark Scott and Clinton Morrison will bring you that on five live. Brentford Chelsea will be on SportsXtra. Tottenham Southampton is on the BBC Sport website and I'm going to come back to Tottenham in a second but John then you are doing the 4.30 on Sunday at Old Trafford. Manchester United against Manchester City and as I say with City currently in fifth and everyone snapping at their heels that they've they've got to make sure of I mean sounds ridiculous to say that they've got to make sure of

Champions League football next season. Yeah they have and it's a bit of an old one isn't it this Manchester Derby because of the circumstances but yes absolutely absolutely they have and you know I think now without Harland, that does change things. And likewise, I think for the FA Cup semi-final without Harland, I think that makes what was already a very interesting tie against Nottingham Forest. There's an extra angle on that. So yeah, they've, they're well, still in obvious, isn't it? There's no slack for them there.

Do you not think, and I'm not including the cup competitions, because I think the cup competitions have been really interesting this season, and obviously have thrown up a few surprises and a welcome change to the usual script with Newcastle A winning the League Cup after that long wait for a domestic trophy, and obviously we've got different teams at the latter stages of the FA Cup but in terms of

the Premier League season do you not think this is the dullest Premier League season that we've had for a long time? Bearing in mind that Liverpool are going to win the title and they could wrap it up in April as it stands the relegation positions for the first time in back-to-back seasons the three promoted teams look like they're going to go down. I mean for the teams time in back-to-back seasons, the three promoted teams look like they're gonna go down. I mean, for the teams to be detached the way that they are at this stage, it just feels as if it's done and dusted. Yeah, but it can't be thrilling, thrilling,

thrilling every time. And I think there's a danger if administrators feel that something has to be done because it has to be it has to be absolutely nail-biting edge-of-the-seat drama every match to the end of the season. This is how it happens. This is what happens sometimes in a league season and you have to accept that. But that's my point. I can't recall there being a season in the Premier League where this has happened at this stage of the campaign Well, Liverpool romped it but I suppose the make point is it's not relegation as well. Yeah, I'm talking title and relegation

Yeah, the normal there's a little bit of jeopardy. I mean Ali I remember your commentary from goodison Late in the season where everton played Crystal Palace. There was the jeopardy that The only jeopardy at the minute is going to be in the European places. Yeah, I mean it's not worked out this season, has it? I mean Ipswich, if they beat Wolves on Saturday, six points behind Wolves, but six points still feels like an awful lot in that relegation battle. And I agree with you, I think in terms of overall narrative and storytelling throughout the season, then we are short of that at both

ends of the table but I still think weekend on weekend there are individual stories that still make the football ultimately exciting and there's always some drama in there and stories to tell. Like John says, in terms of mucking around with it or changing formats, I always think this when I go to, for example, I did Club Bruges in the Champions League recently, and so you look at their domestic season and the way their top division finishes is you get into a certain position. You've got to make it a bit like the split in Scotland, but different again because you

get into a top six, you then halve your points and you play all the other teams in the top six and a team that finishes top of the table at the cut-off doesn't necessarily win the league title. And I'm not, by the way, I don't find that entirely satisfactory. At no point have I ever talked about changing the format. I'm just saying that it worries me that someone somewhere with some big idea will think, oh, we can't have this. Well, they tried that in Holland a few years ago, didn't they?

And it didn't last very long, but they brought in a playoff system and it was quickly abolished. And also in Scotland, the only reason that they have the split is that they've got the 12 teams and obviously they can't play each of the four times. So what they do, they play each of the four times so what they do they

play to the three times then they split into the top six and those additional five games provide the 38 game season. I'm gonna get some correspondence very shortly yes just a quick one on that because there we do very good ones there are some excellent emails this week emails come into TCV at BBC dot co.uk and you can leave us voice notes as well. So this is the Football Daily WhatsApp number 08000289369. Just a very quick one on Ange Postocoglu and Tottenham who obviously lost to Chelsea last night. 16 defeats, 16 Premier League defeats this season for Tottenham which is more than half of their games. I don't need a supercomputer

to tell me that. Did you see the, you know there's quite a bit about the old Postokoglu cupping his ear to the Tottenham fans after Papsar had scored wasn't it and then the goal got ruled out by VAR but as we know all is not well there we probably need a supercomputer to tell us what percentage of Tottenham fans now want him to stay and What percentage want him to go and probably the the percentage that want to change is increasing all the time Isn't it? Yeah, it does seem fractious doesn't it? But it's again, you know, it's the extension of the conversation that we've had all season long, isn't it?

There's only one winner though when you start to take on the supporters there's only one winner Unless you produce result after result after result Trophy after trophy after trophy. Yeah, otherwise the Europa League on Thursday night obviously becomes for a manager to take on the supporters You've got to operate from a position of strength and he's not operating from a position of strength No Tottenham Southampton, Sunday 2 o'clock BBC Sport website and then as John says Thursday night Tottenham against Frankfurt and Tottenham season is all about that Europa League, that's the first leg of their quarterfinal. Right, on to the correspondents. First one, quick

look alike from Mel, hello gentlemen I couldn't help myself after watching Sports Day on the BBC News channel on Tuesday evening. I'm not sure if it was the camera angle but your good selfie Ian Dennis, bit of a ringer for Harry Hill. It has been said before, in fact when I've done a dinner and after dinner I've actually introduced and said don't worry the budget hasn't stretched that far, it's not Harry Hill it's Ian Dennis from Radio 5 Live. But I've got to be honest with you, it was the camera angle and I would prefer to stick with Michael Brown's mother's version of Stanley Tucci.

Yeah, I'm reading Stanley Tucci's book at the moment, his latest book, which is called What I Ate in One Year and other related tales or stories. Does it include Celtic pies? No, I don't think he's big on pies, pies at football grounds, but he's just come up with a phrase where he actually almost enters one into the glossary but it's not really a football commentary. He talks about things selling like hotcakes and then wonders what hotcakes actually are and the provenance of and why maybe the reason they sell,

the reason he's never had a hotcake is they sell so reason they sell you the reason he's never had a hot cake Is they sell so quickly is that by the time he gets there the hot cakes aren't available So I quite enjoyed that about you're gonna enjoy about a month ago So I watch conclave which has Stanley Tucci in it and at no stage watching that film did I think goodness me? He looks like Ian Dennis did I think? Goodness me, he looks like Ian Dennis. I think you're going to enjoy the next few emails John, we've got quite a lot on clubs with the slash in their names, so this continues the theme. I'll do the first one and then

I'll let you chaps take over. So this is Ross in Glasgow, he says hello all, unfortunately I have to report that John is being called into the commentators dock for a contribution on last week's episode. When discussing the Norwegian team, Bodo forward slash Glimt, John declared confidently that this was a case of two neighboring towns pooling resources together. However look on the map you will find no place called Glimt. In fact Glimt translates into English as Flash, meaning that the team's name is a rather American sounding Bodo forward slash Flash, likely in reference to their

bright yellow shirts. I hope that the guilty party will now receive a sentence of shaming similar to Steve Crossman on the Euroleague's pod when he was under the impression that Saucyadad, of Real Saucyadad, was a place rather than San Sebastian Keep up the great work gents listening to the pod is a highlight of the week many thanks best wishes Ross from Glasgow Can I read the next one because I really want to hear John try to pronounce bearing in mind that Pronunciation of free a market last week has been actually commended. I want to hear John pronounce our next Correspondent from Norway, so I'll just briefly chip in with Richard listening from Houston in Texas. I love the podcast, but having lived in Norway

for 10 years, I can say that Bodo Glimt are not two towns, but one town called Bodo. I've been there. Glimt means flash, keep up the good work. Over to you. Well, I'm very happy for the record to be set straight on this. And I am wanting to say,

I heard someone that may or may not have been Rory Smith, suggest that Bordeaux and Glimt were two places put together. That might have been on the Monday night club, but I might be doing a dessert. I might be getting something else wrong in the process of doing this. Now, Hare Chapman referred to this podcast as last of the summer wine and the commentators go off last week.

So therefore, if Rory Smith is getting things wrong, therefore the go off is on the Monday nightclub. Well, I wouldn't want to feel like I heard that. So anyway, it's wrong. Okay, there we are. But we've got more flesh on the bones from Torah, Johan, no, boy, who's from hammer in Norway, and Torah, Johan, I write up front apologize for probably mispronouncing your name. And and Torah, Johan says, just wanted to

say that Bodo slash glimped, they were originally called just glimped when formed in 1916, but added the name Bodo in 1948, due to another team in Norway using the name glimped. As a fun fact, they actually used a hyphen, not a forward slash, but had to change it because of misunderstandings when you wanted to bet on football every Saturday. A hyphen was used in the program to separate teams and suddenly you ended up with three teams. Therefore, they started using the forward slash. And as for the rest of Tora's correspondence, he sent us a voice note. Just as a curiosity, in Norway in the fourth tier, a game was played between two teams,

but the two teams consisted of originally six teams. So the team is called Dumboss forward slash Lesja, forward slash Lesjaskog, versus Fron forward slash Otta forward slash Lom. But I think the unofficial world record could possibly be the game between Sjoldar forward slash Vats forward slash Vik forward slash Vin versus Avaldsnes forward slash Koppervik forward slash Vard. That is two teams but originally seven teams. Thank you for a brilliant podcast. Thank you for a brilliant podcast. That is fantastic. That is a contender for the email, indeed the voice note of the season so far.

You know when you do a Saturday three o'clock game and you're told to keep it tight 15 seconds, are you meant to start on the score and end on the score? You've got absolutely no chance. Funny that I thought of exactly the same thing, Ali. And another one actually, there's another follow-up. This is Torre Johanne as well. It is, yeah. Oh yeah, Ian, this is about the word you pronounced superbly last week, the frimærke.

So, hi Ali, Ian and John, I was listening to the episode Friday the 28th of March, Ian mentioned a Danish version with the word frimærke. Firstly, a very decent pronunciation of the word, it is the same in Norwegian, but here in Norway, the word is used when a defender man marks an attacker or another important player on the field. You would be putting a freemaker on the player. So were we using it as the postage stamp? That was the other usage of it. Yeah, it was the Badminton court, wasn't it? Oh yes. So Torre Johan with all sorts of correspondence there, but as you say John that the the voice note

Fantastic and oh, this is another one from last week and this is on pronunciations and and it's Scandinavian again This is a voice note from Peter. Hi Swedish listener in Stockholm here I just want to say that I really enjoyed your episode last week and I was delighted to hear that you mentioned Marcus Albeck and Especially the part about his name Probably not being pronounced or back And I'm a stock on native as I said, but I spent nine years living in Gothenburg during my teenage years And as it happens

Albeck was actually a neighbor of mine back then and I'll beck was always really pleasant Albeck was actually a neighbor of mine back then and Albeck was always really pleasant when I ran into him and a really down-to-earth guy and it really left a lasting impression on me and a top man. And later on of course he ended up playing for Aston Villa which also happens to be my favorite club so that made the connection extra special there and just repeat and clarify the pronunciation of his name. It's Marcus Albeck thanks for a great podcast always a highlight of the week and all the best and up the villa another destination for the world tour exactly on that theme actually we had another response from the British ambassador to Estonia. We got in touch with one of our producers, George, and in

that particular piece of correspondence George said that the ambassador to Estonia cc'd in the ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein. So we might be hearing from him as well before too long. In Focus, on the Football Daily every Saturday. Catch the biggest names from the Premier League and beyond as they share all with nothing off limits. We are here to speak to Arsenal's Ricardo Calafiore. Ruben Amorim, welcome to the Football Daily. When I had this invitation, I felt that I had to do this. Rodri, that was incredible.

Thank you for having me here. In Focus, only on the Football Daily. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to The Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One like never before. I'm Matt Magindy, and thanks to my my exclusive access I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. This week Matt will take you on a deep dive into race strategy. He speaks to members of

the Red Bull team that probably wake up in a cold sweat shouting box, box. I still get nervous before a race. All it takes is one safety car of an odd time and it completely changes the complexion of things. Experience F1 like never before by tuning into the Inside Track wherever you get your podcasts. The Commentator's View with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis on the Football Daily. We're going to get onto the great glossary shortly. Our special guest this week is on the way. He is the BBC Sports Chief Football writer Phil McNulty who has an article up on the BBC Sport website at

the moment about precisely this thing, the modern language of football. So we're going to get onto that in a second but before that it's the small matter of clash of the commentators this week. I'd almost forgotten about it. And it's written here now I didn't say this I'm actually top of the table at the moment it says here it's turning into the Premier League title race so Jo Iain was talking about sort of how the season's already over I don't I don't I don't feel that's the case yeah Ali you are three points clear at the top now. And I suspect that you are in an unassailable position actually now with six from eight after you beat me last

week on the Scottish themed tiebreaker, the Celtic hearts manager. And then Ian and I have both now got three from eight. Okay. So we are joint second. Yeah. So, relegation six pointer, John against Ian this week, a chance for one of you to lift yourselves off the bottom unless we have a nil-nil draw and no tie breaker. The loser of course, as we keep saying, will be rooted at the foot of the table. So just a reminder of how we play the game in case you're listening to the podcast for the first time.

I reveal a category. One of these two will unplug. They won't be able to hear the other one, the player who goes first, giving their answers. You've got 30 seconds to give as many correct answers in that category as possible. Who's up first this week for this one? Shall I go first? Okay. I feel like, and I've watched a lot of these sort of teams recently, Who's up first this week for this one? Shall I go first? I feel like, and I've watched a lot of these sort of teams recently, I feel like a team that is struggling at the bottom of the table

and doesn't know where its next win is coming from. Don't get into your mind games. I'll unplug. He can't buy a win. He can't buy a win at the moment. A bug from an exhibition matches. Yeah, Ian's unplugged. Plenty of answers available here, how many you're going to find I don't know. Okay, ready to go. John, you are doing, you're doing the Manchester Derby on Sunday, 4.30 commentary on 5 Live

at Old Trafford. But as mentioned, as you mentioned Manchester City will be without Erling Haaland for the trip. I need you to name as many number nines as you can to have played for Manchester United or Manchester City. So any player who has had number nine on their back playing for either of the two Manchester clubs, your time starts now. Right, Rude van Nistelrooy, Marcus Rashford, I can't remember the numbers I'm just gonna say players, Dennis Law, Joe Jordan, Wayne Rooney from Manchester City, Sir Harland obviously, should mention him. Aguero, Nile Quinn,

more Manchester United. I need Dion Dublin of course, should mention Dion. Berbatov. Okay, oh that's the same as last week, I think that came just after the buzzer, Berbatov, I'm not sure we can allow that. So you've given one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 answers. And I'm gonna let the production team, John, have a look at the list honestly. And I mean, I don't know whether number nine was meaning squad number nine

or whether they actually wore the number nine shirt. Shirt number. Shirt number nine is how I read it. Or whether you're center forward. No, no, no, no. I think I made that quite clear. I said wore the number nine on their shirt, yeah. I think you've done okay there, I think you've done okay. I think you'll beat me on this.

Okay, well let's see, let's give Dan over a thumbs up. Has he fallen asleep? No, he's there. He's wearing a kind of Manchester City blue, isn't he today as well? Dan, no mucking about here, because Phil McNulty's on the way. John's doing the Manchester Derby for 5 Live on Sunday. Manchester City without Erling Haaland for the trip to Old Trafford. I need you today to name as many number nines as you can to have played for Manchester United or Manchester City. Any player who's worn the number nine for either of those two clubs. I'm not talking Premier League, I'm talking all the way back as well. Your time starts

now. Okay so Sean Goater, Paul Dickhoff, number nines, Rud van Listeroy, Wayne Rooney, Michael Owen, George Best, Denis Law, Bobby Charlton Not Eric Cantona, not David Beckham Oh my the word I can't think of a mind, phrase reason

No Okay, okay so John gave ten answers I don't know how many are correct yet Ian gave one, two, three, four eight nine well I say nine I'll tell you the one and you're gonna kick yourself here Ian that you're not gonna be allowed Oh are they gonna sell show I should have said him? No no no I think he's on this list I'm just gonna check I saw his name on this list and it surprised me you said not Eric Cantona Eric Cantona is on the list as having worn number nine for Manchester United but it was a throwaway

not eric canton i know i hope that's not going to be the decisive on so because i don't think i could allow that let's hope not i thought canton i was seven was you know what it yeah that's how you think of him don't you but it says here on the list of the did whether number nine so i'm now waiting for producer nathan to give me the answer to give me the numbers to give me the answer, to give me the numbers, to

give me the result, to see who's off the bottom of the table in Clash of the Commentators. You see back in the day when it was just numbers 1 to 11 you don't know how those numbers were configured do you, so that's why I just trotted out you know your best laws Charlton's because I didn't didn't know. I don't believe this. That means that I've said not Cantonese. That means I should have just said Cantonese. No, listen, listen, listen. John, from 10, 4 correct. What? Yeah, I thought you had more than that. Your 4 correct answers, Dennis Law, Joe Jordan, I love Joe Jordan as an answer. You very very sensibly used harland he was in the question

which denno didn't use and niall quinn so that mister we never warned them tonight apparently not really is not on the list either eight and ten at the numbers that they were uh... aguero and van nistel or not on the list either in your four correct

answers for each for a try to for each but listen not on the list either. Ian, your four correct answers... Four each! Four each? I didn't know! Four each! But listen, that's four, that's four without Cantona. So what do we do? So Ian's correct answers...

I know very well what we do. Dickhoff, Best, Law and Charlton. So he rattled off the United Trinity. No you didn't John. I wrote down your answers very clearly. You did not say Bobby Charlton. You said Dennis Law. You said Dennis't john you didn't i wrote down your answers very clearly did not say bobby charlton you said dennis law you said dennis lawby did not say charlton so it's for each so dick often go to was didn't wear ten

and number nine uh... dick off did go to didn't owen didn't can i give denno cantona he said cantona i did say cantona he said can't an hour. I did say can't an hour He said not can't an hour. No, but I still said it. I said not This is he said can't an hour. I've got to make a call on it. I'd refer I'd refer that up Well, I have referred it up and I've given been given an answer. You're not gonna like John is Paul

Then I get a win. Yes, then I get the way it, so John, he can't buy a win as he said. So 2D line on the boot. Check complete, check complete. It's fine. Perfect. Delay, delay, delay. Oli's calling in to say delay the game. Can't do anything. No. I can't do anything. I can't do anything.

I'm gonna take that to the court for arbitration for sport. Yep. Yep. I'll tell you who, when are you next working with Chris Sutton? Because he loves the rules for Argo. I'd be interested to know what he made of the decision there. Ask Chris. Ask Chris. Well, I'd also like to ask Dion if he ever wore number 9. Yeah, apparently not I just think you might have run over a black cat because yeah, look is clearly not on your side It's not but all I can say is thank you Ali and I am no longer rooted to the bottom of the table Yeah, well until next week. This was definitely one we'll come back to next week and by the time we get to next Friday

I fully expect to have won that Well, though because the result stands. The referee, the umpire, call him what you will, the victory has been achieved. Right, just to rattle off some other names you didn't say very quickly. Anthony Marcial, Rasmus Hoyland, Lukaku, Ibrahimovic, Falcao. Berbatov was said but was a correct answer. Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes, Andy Cole, Roy Keane, I mean there's some random ones, Brian Robson, Brian McClare, Norman Whitehead, Frank Stapleton

was one that popped into my head actually, City, Jesus, Alvaro Negredo, Adabayor, Emil Mpenza, anyone? Andy Cole wore number nine for City as well, One Chop, some great names Trevor Francis, Brian Kidd, Joe Royal, Frannie Lee, anyway, anyway, four each, five four actually, Denno got the win. Let's get on to the great glossary of football commentary, so this is our collection of football commentary terms that we are building this season with the help from our listeners. I've billed our special guest as well this week who's got an article on the BBC Sport website about the modern language of football. It's the BBC Sports Chief Football Writer Phil McNulty making his debut on the Commentator's View. I've had a read

of the article this morning Phil, I love it and I think readers, listeners, viewers are going to love the discussion around the language of football as we've discussed on this podcast. People just get very heated about it. Yeah and it started off quite civilized with Chris Sutton saying he's not going to get irate about any of these terms but then we mentioned half spaces and he just went off. He said people should face punishment for it he said if I dig a hole I don't dig half a hole and then on and on he went. That never naturally overall was even more cynical than Chris, which is, you know, that is very hard to believe his favorite stroke, not favorite was transitions that really got in. And of interest to you, he said there should be a three strikes and

out transitions commentary box law which be one a stern look two a yellow card three thrown out which might not be ideal during a match but that was his view on it anyway transition I it depends how it's used I don't mind it so much as a word to describe what is going on in a game like one team loses a ball, another team wins it, then quickly gets on the counter attack and uses it to their advantage. I've used a lot of words there where transition sort of...

I don't know, I've got less of a problem with transition than Pat, but it is used ad nauseam. Yeah, he felt, he describes as the gold standard of football jargon used by people who don't know what they're talking about, but like to make people think they know what they're talking about. He said that by the way, not me. The one that got unanimous approval was a high line. I'm working with Pat on Saturday. I might throw in a transition just to gauge his reaction. Lovely. I think you should throw in three and see if he brings in the law which means you are

immediately ejected from the commentary box, which as I said, might not go down very well with those higher up in the organisation. I think a high line is quite descriptive and I think people can understand what that means when the defence is keeping a high line. I think if you talk about transitions, I think, you know, bear in mind that perhaps a lot of people who listen to our commentaries Enjoy their football, but aren't necessarily steeped in it. I'm not sure they'll nest some people will necessarily know what you're talking about Yeah, it was interesting the other one that created quite a lot of debate was low block And unfortunately, I did a piece of five wide last night and they took out poor old Glen Murray using it the other night at Arsenal One man we haven't seen much of and you usually do when Arsenal are playing at home especially

when a team are in a low block like this. Martin Odegaard been very quiet so far. That's harsh on Glenn. Yeah very very harsh. I don't think I've ever referred to a low blocking commentary. I would just say they're defending deep. Defending deep. Exactly, exactly. And just to play devil's advocate here, we can't

completely shut the door on new terms being used in football, can we? Because language changes all the time. Oh, absolutely. I mean, we were talking about it and people of the slightly older generation like us would remember wing aves and inside forwards and their terms that you're never here now. And it's not a piece that's sort of angry people shaking their fists at the sky, it's just sort of a bit more of an explanation of, you know, the new language of modern football and what does it actually mean? When you boil it down, what does it actually mean? And I've tried to give an explanation because one was pockets of space,

which again, you know, that gets people going a bit. And that when I looked into it was an American football term which was the space either side of a quarterback now I have no interest whatsoever in the pocket in American football or pockets of space particularly yeah but that's where it came from. I use pockets of space but I mean half space that's an absolute nonsense I don't know I mean I've heard players on the half term but the half space I mean that is and anyway talking about half spaces I think Ian's in a half space now because we've got about five minutes before we finish recording here and he's he's would he get into a half space I'm actually waiting because if we if we read one particular correspondence where you know Phil's talking about the

lexicon when he started watching football, I'm actually waiting for one correspondence in particular. Do it, do it, Denno, do it. If you can find it, do it. Let's do that first, go on. Because, so a couple of weeks back we were talking about Roy the Rovers and we've had this email in from JP. Gents, this may not apply to ABB, but for Denno and Big John, I'm appalled if you didn't read Tiger and Scorcher as lads. Mine used to arrive every Saturday morning along with Whizzer and Chips. I think I'm right in saying that Roy Race actually started in Tiger before being spun off into his own comic, September 76, and I seem to recall he took hot shot

Hamish with him, which seems to me like a football transfer asset stripping scandal. Other characters, Billy Dane, turned into Billy Boots, who also moved to Royal Rovers after 15 years with Tiger, was there no FFP in those days. And one for the great glossary, managers or new signings being unveiled, it has simply never happened. The day a manager is paraded in front of the press

or fans with a veil on his face and then revealed, well fair enough, but until then this is simply nonsense perpetuated in football chat. Loving the plot as they say, unlike the big man I listen every week, it connects me to my life before meetings and emails. Enjoy Augusta if you're lucky enough to go. JP James Porter. Well JP, I'm appalled if you think I'm of the age that I was able to read Tiger and Scorcher because as the Times said in 2019, I was 44 then. Phil, unveiled. I would actually love to see somebody unveiled, I really would, unless they've got some distinguishing features like a big nose when you can tell who it is

before they even unveil them. The other one I like actually is installed. A manager has been installed like a central heating system or something to do with the plumbing. Installed is a big favorite of mine. It's rubbish, obviously, a bit like unveiled. But unveiled, I always have a laugh when I see that because I would love to actually see We all arrive at a press conference and there's a manager with a or a figure with a black veil over them

Which some chairman will then pull off and it will be whoever lurking underneath but installs another one If I just think I just think of central easing and plumbing if there's one club that will now do an unveiling I just think of central leasing and plumbing. If there's one club that will now do an unveiling, it'll be Burnley because some of their signings on social media have been out of this world this season. Well there we are. That is a plea to Burnley to fulfill our wish and actually unveil, not a manager because I'm sure Scott Parker will stay there but maybe their next big signing should be unveiled. It's like the brilliant bit in the repair shop, isn't it, where the people have handed

over the, you know, whatever it is, that precious family heirloom that they want fixed up and made all shiny and new and then they come in at the end of the show and it does genuinely get, it comes from underneath the curtain and the reveal is absolutely fantastic. And unveiled then, is that, I mean, is that football specific do we think? Is it football specific enough to go into the glossary? Do head coaches get unveiled in cricket? Does it happen in rugby league? Does it happen in rugby league? Does it happen in...

Yeah, well I'll tell you what I remember when Yorkshire unveiled Sashin Tendulkar as their first overseas player and that unveiling actually took place at the Oval. Did they actually unveil him? No, but the terminology unveiled was I think used. So I think you can have a signing unveiled in any sport What's any pictures holding up a pint of bitter to make him look like a Yorkshireman for the photographs when he signed? Yes, and it was all very incongruous of course actually in holding up this pint Which he probably didn't drink and didn't want to drink But that made him a Yorkshireman like when Fred Truman used to do indoor league and he'd even try to be more of a Yorkshireman than he actually was

By putting on more of a Yorkshire accent even though he was from Yorkshire But said unveiled is a big favour unfailed and installed. I do think we should press Clubs to do an unveiling a little bit. Yeah, then have you got time for another one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I'm happy. Okay,, this one I like, well I like all of them, but this one in particular has tickled my fancy. This is Paul in Sonny Milton Keynes. Hi all, continue to thoroughly enjoy the podcast, especially appreciating how competitive you all are when it comes to clash of the commentators. Controversial today. John.

Albeit some more than others, you know who you are. John. I was watching Bournemouth against Manchester City in the FA Cup quarterfinal when City were awarded, in the words of Lee Dixon, a stonewall penalty. Now we all know what he meant, but it made me ponder whether stonewall is used in this context in any other sporting event. I think not, and therefore offer it up as an entry into the glossary. I do this even though I'm not convinced that stonewall actually means dead cert as we have all

Come to accept and and following on from this and this is the bit. I really like Tottenham fan Nick writes in I was recently catching up with my favorite quiz show only connect and During the what connects these clues round an interesting point was made by the host Victoria the connection was stonewall and one of the clues related to football and the use of stonewall in connection with a stonewall penalty. Stonewall is the right answer. And why? So, the LGBTQ charity is called Stonewall. To use delaying tactics, to use Stonewall to hold something up. And the difficult ones?

LAUGHTER We're assuming that there's a general called Stonewall. Stonewall Jackson. Stonewall Jackson, exactly. Known as Stonewall in 1861, he took a sort of fierce stand in a battle. And a definite penalty, this in a battle and a definite penalty. This is a phrase. How does it speak? It's used in football commentary, isn't it? I don't know why they say they might mean stone cold, but something like it's a stonewall penalty. It definitely is one. And that charity, of course, Stonewall at the end. Right. So

as Victoria Corran Mitchell pointed out there, it's used in the wrong context. Stonewall normally relates to delaying or obstructing. She suggests it should be a stone cold penalty. Thoughts? I'm going to open that to the panel. What do we think about stonewall penalty? Well, it's a phrase that probably everyone has used at some point or other, maybe not in commentary, but certainly in conversation. I agree it's pretty meaningless when you just say it's a definite penalty, I would say,

but I have to confess in private conversations I have used it. And also, I think it is probably only used in football, isn't it? Because if you have a certain LBW, you'd probably say always plum LBW. You wouldn't say it's a stonewall LBW, would you? But again, it's using a different context. Would I not be right, Jonny, that some of your batting could sometimes be described as a stonewalling?

Stonewalling a stonewalling stonewalling and table tennis as well if you've ever played table tennis that is exactly how john plays, that's what i would consider to be the meaning of stonewalling he's not exactly lightning on the snooker table either it's like cliff thorburn chris taveret cricket

cliff thorburn at snooker so but it's an interesting one because stonewall penalty, I've got a feeling that does get into the glossary then even though it's sort of incorrect. Do you know what I mean though? Because we say it, it's used to mean a dead cert penalty and it's not used in that context in any other sports. Well, I would agree with Ali there, I think yeah, it is in the glossary even though sometimes we're not quite sure what it means

So unveiled installed stonewall, which are going in unveiled not not going in because of session Tendulka and use elsewhere Yeah, how's the three I would go with with stonewall because it's a lot I think stonewalls probably got to go in stonewalls going in John's keeping very quiet Stonewall's going in. John's keeping very quiet. Have you ever used that one John? Have you ever used Stonewall? You know, it's not one that I would often use, but I'm happy for Phil to decide as our guest this week. Oh thank you very much. Stonewall. Yeah, dead sir, decision, it's into the glossary. Phil, the article is on the BBC Sport website, it's called Football's New Phrasebook,

Modern Language or Just Jargon. Where are you going to be penning your thoughts from this weekend? Where are you off to next? Well first of all I am going to Aston Villa vs Nottingham Forest tomorrow evening which I think will be a really interesting game. I saw Villa at Brighton the other night and they were very very good, very efficient rather than spectacular but they really got the job done and they look like they're coming into very decent form at the the end of the season and they've given the lie to the fact that you don't get value in the in the January transfer window because all the goals the other night were scored by people they had

at the signed-on loan in Marco Asensio or Marcus Rashford or Daniel Mellon got a goal at the end so they showed ambition they seized the moment in January and they're being rewarded for it and they've got a great end to the season ahead of them. What's the Sat Navs saying dinner? Sat Navs thinks I should be on my way very very soon. Okay, we'll let you go then. So Ian is at Crystal Palace Brighton, 3 o'clock, 5 live Saturday afternoon. John is at Old Trafford for Manchester United Manchester City half four on Sunday

and we've also got those three games at two o'clock on Sunday your five live commentary is the leaders Liverpool away at Fulham John you look like you've got something else if you're going back to Clash of the Commentators I'm going to have to stop there. No I think when we're talking about commentary it'd be a very good time to mention and and this is brilliant company all summer long that the BBC local radio stations have just signed a new contract. It's a four-year contract to cover domestic cricket but I think particularly the county championship as we speak this is the first morning of the new county championship season and it's a brilliant way to keep in touch and

actually it's great company as well. You can find all of the matches on the live cricket pages on the BBC Sport website, but it's very often on Sports Extra as well. And on a similar theme, just want to mention as well, the really sad news this week, that John Curtis, who we all knew, has sadly died, but a great guy, great company,

and Phil, I know you work with him very closely as well. Yeah I only spoke to him last week, absolutely wonderful man, anyone who ever met him you never forgot him. He was very warm, very funny, sometimes not always intentionally but also an outstanding journalist. Ian will remember him in the mix zones with his 12 tape recorders and everybody you know you got very friendly with players and managers because they just knew what a genuine guy he was. He'd be very sadly missed.

And you can tell that from the rich tributes that have been paid, not just from his fellow journalists, but from clubs, crickets and football. He loved Worcestershire. And, you know, if he'd have been with us, he'd have been there at Worcestershire watching his beloved Purs. A really great guy. And as John said, very, very sadly missed. Our thoughts with his family and friends. Well said, Phil. Well said, John. Thank you everyone. The next episode of the Football Daily,

we're going to have reaction to the Women's Nations League Games, including the Five Live commentary tonight, which I am at, that is England against Belgium. And remember, you can find each and every episode of the commentators view on the football daily feed on BBC sounds. I think you were robbed there John I've got to say. I was robbed. Yeah. Well we was robbed.

And the good thing is we won't be hearing any more about that won't we? You'll accept that with a good grace. It won't be mentioned again. That'll have been turned around by next week. That'll have been overturned on review. Not Cantona is not Cantona, isn't it? But if only we brought you in as the sole arbiter. As the dicky arbiter.

Also, Phil, Dion Dublin surely won number nine. He's got to, hasn't he? He's got to. A new series of Match of the Day Top Ten is out now. Only available on BBC Sounds. Join myself, Garelinica, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards and my dog as we dig into the Top Ten of the Champions League. We go through our favourite goalscorers, best moment and even our all-time 11th. Now that, gentlemen, is a list.

No, well, he didn't get on the list. Correct. He didn't get on the reserve list. You can listen right now on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Inside Track with me, Rick Edwards. This is the podcast that takes you inside Formula One like never before. I'm Matt Magindy and thanks to my exclusive access, I'll be getting up close and personal with Red Bull Racing this season. This week, Matt will take you on a deep dive into race strategy. He speaks to members of the Red Bull team that probably wake up in a cold sweat shouting box, box.

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