Football Daily - The Commentators’ View: UCL Final & being Southgate

Episode Date: May 29, 2026

John Murray, Ian Dennis & Ali Bruce-Ball look ahead to the UEFA Champions League Final. Also hear John’s sit-down interview with Gareth Southgate actor, Joseph Fiennes, from new BBC drama Dear England. And who will win the Clash of the Commentators title decider? Messages, questions and voicenotes welcome on WhatsApp to 08000 289 369 & emails to [e-mail]01:00 John in Budapest ahead of UCL Final, 03:20 Ali back from Leipzig after Palace win Conference League, 10:30 Ian prepares to cross the Atlantic… 12:20 PSG v Arsenal preview, 20:45 Premier League final day reflections, 22:40 Nuno stays at West Ham, 24:50 Ali’s special treatment at Bournemouth, 28:20 Interview with Gareth Southgate actor Joseph Fiennes, 47:35 Cheesy pub name & more dogs into the TCV XI, 52:50 Clash of the Commentators title decider!5 Live / BBC Sounds commentaries: Sat 1300 Scotland v Curaçao in Friendly, Sat 1700 PSG v Arsenal in UCL Final, Sun 1500 Brighton & Hove v Man City in Women’s FA Cup Final.

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For more, check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The Commentator's View on the Football Daily with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis. Hello, it's The Football Daily. I'm Alastair Bruce Ball, and this is the commentators view. Mark Chapman's favorite podcast, bar none of the ones he isn't on. And it's the one where we five live commentators talk about the matches we've seen, the words we've used to describe them, and the wonderful places the football takes us on our travels. Speaking of which, Ian Dennis, I know, will be packing his bags ready for an early departure to the east coast of the United States of America,

soon to bring us coverage of England's World Cup warm-up games. I'm just back from Leipzig, where I saw Crystal Palace win a European trophy for the very first time, and correspondent John Murray says good morning to us from Budapest, John. Good morning. Good morning from Budapest, Ali. and Ian. And good morning to you in Budapest, John. Have you done football in Budapest before, John? Yes, yes, on several occasions. And I've actually, at least once, maybe more than that,

come here to go somewhere else. So I've come here to drive onto somewhere else. I actually can't even remember where that was. So it's not uncharted territory by any means Budapest. But where I am, Ali is, and the weather here is beautiful. It's just like it's been at home over the course of the last couple of weeks or so. But I've not stayed where I am for this, which is right next to the railway station, the magnificent main railway station of Budapest, which is actually we're in a walking distance away from the stadium, which for a Champions League final, I mean, that is worth its weight. So it's about, It's about 20 minutes walk.

It would be 30 for you, Ian. And, you know, so we're not too far away. So we'll be able to walk there and back, most importantly, on the way back after the match. And right at the outset, should say, again, because this may have escaped people's attention. It is local time, a 6 o'clock kickoff. So it's 5 o'clock kickoff, UK time, which is the first time we've had that, which I think is a great innovation for a whole variety of reasons. But I think most importantly, it means that, you know, it's 5 o'clock.

UK time on a Saturday night. But the station is a magnificent building. Absolutely magnificent building. And it's a little bit crumbling around the edges. But that almost makes it better. And a lot of the signage is the old Hungarian signage, which is translated in a lot of old wooden doors. And you just sort of think, from here, I could go anywhere.

And the board of destinations is amazing. And also last night, Came back last night, and they've projected, one of the sponsors has projected, I think it was Odegaard and Gabriel onto the front of the station, which looked amazing. So there's a little flavor of what I've seen so far in the few hours that I've been here. When you say you could go anywhere, I wouldn't bother doing that because in years to come, you won't remember where you would go on from Budapest. But also, Ali, you're back from Leipzig, and the train station in Leipzig is equally as, spectacular. It is and we were staying pretty close to it and we equally were able to walk to the stadium which I thought was a really good venue actually for the conference league final and what

I'm going to take away with me from the whole occasion. I mean obviously the story of Crystal Palace playing in their first European season and winning yet another trophy so in the space of just over a year having won no major trophies for 120 years to suddenly have three in the cabinet. That is obviously the story. But actually my main memories will be of the city the day before the game and these two sets of fans, I mean, both of whom were making the absolute most out of a fabulous occasion, because the Raya Viacano story is an incredible one in itself. I mean, similarly in a way to Crystal Palace, sort of, you know, based in the capital city,

in the southeastern suburbs, you know, if you're going to use the sporting cliche, sort of plucky underdogs. But the more I read about Raya Viacano and what they stand. for as a football club and what their fan base is all about. Yeah, and it was two sets of clubs, I think, and two sets of fans who sort of got each other. So the shared experience in the city and inside the stadium. And also just the colours. I mean, the Raya Varkana shirt is absolutely fantastic with a red thunderbolt across the white shirt on the front. And the Crystal Palace shirt, when you see them in their thousands, actually, in the city,

looked absolutely brilliant. So obviously Crystal Palace got the win. But the atmosphere of the whole occasion was the thing that was. stay with me. Have you seen this email that we've got from Crystal Palace fan Jez, who says, Allie, dear TCV, I just wanted to congratulate Ali, for

completing the TCV hat trick of commentating on a Crystal Palace trophy win of all the things that have happened in football since you started the podcast. Surely, this is the most unlikely. Hoping to hear that some of Ali's commentary from the match

finds its way to the wall of the Selhurst Park Media Centre alongside John and Ian's. Thanks for all of your commentaries, says Jez. I've been listening to football on BBC Radio since the 1970s and the quality and service is second to none. Glad all over, says Jez. So thank you very much for that.

I would say, just like I did Ian for your commentary last week, you know, any Crystal Palace fan who is there wants to listen to how that sounded, Ali's commentary with Paul Robinson. you can go to BBC Sounds just for the cost of your licence fee go on there, stations and schedules, find Wednesday night, 8 o'clock, you can listen to it back all over again.

And I was at Crystal Palace on Sunday and I just had a little look there and there is space between where Ian's words and my words have been put up on the wall. There is space in between. Yeah. But also, didn't you have a word with Steve Parrish?

Or did Steve Parrish have a word with you? No, no, I interviewed Steve Parrish after the match just because we were hanging around for such a long time waiting for Arsenal people to finish their celebrations. Steve Parrish sort of wandered, I so had a word. And he was saying to me, he said, I feel like I hear that commentary on the FA Cup final. He said, I feel like I hear it every day, which I thought was a nice touch. And also, I must mention Jane Albert.

Have you met Jane? who is the Crystal Palace tour guide. So she conducts tours of Selhurst Park. And she came up, introduced herself. She was absolutely charming. And, you know, she was lovely saying about how much she had enjoyed our commentary in on the FA Cup final. And it feels like, I think I've said this before, it feels like because we, you and I are commenting on the FA Cup final, it feels like we've suddenly got this connection with Crystal Palace.

and every single time I go there, someone different will come up and speak to me about the FA Cup final, which is really nice. And you might get that alley now as well, having commented on the conference league final. Well, certainly a couple of Crystal Palace fans who live locally who had a word with me before the final

and are aware of the fact that your commentary is, you know, is plastered up there in the stadium. And we're sort of saying, well, you're going to need to deliver if we win this trophy. I was wondering whether they've got the commentary actually of when Glasner does the game. Cleansman Belly slide. I wonder whether that's the one because honestly that was that was I didn't realize I think he did that in 2022 when he was the manager of

Frankfurt when they beat Rangers because I think looking on social media I saw him do it previously so I didn't realize that was a thing but it caught me by surprise but it was it was very funny because he he is so he's got a right sense of humour hasn't he but you very rarely see him let his hair down like that it was it was brilliant that was a great moment that. Just to say that the fact that they're now going to be playing in the Europa League it'll be more Sunday football next season so you might be making

more trips to Sellhurst Park than I will, the two of you next season. I did what you suggested actually John just had a little listen back to some of the commentary from the night because I wanted to be sure, not be sure because I knew what the answer was but the

atmosphere inside the stadium was so good you know one of those where you take your headphone off your ear just to really get a full flavour of what it was like. And the singing of Glad All Over in particular, but so many of the Palace songs, playing in front of that must have been absolutely amazing for both sets of players.

So I went back just to have a listen to whether it came across as well as it actually sounded inside the stadium. And it does. That's the thing, you really, really, really get a feel of what it's like, what it was like to be inside that stadium. So it was some night, and it's, yeah, and it's a competition, isn't it? I mean, Brighton are playing in that competition next season,

and they must look at that and think, do you know what? You know, if you see the success that the English clubs have had in the Conference League, and I know people will grumble about that and say that, you know, it's not necessarily weighted in their favor, but because of the financial resources of the Premier League, you know, the teams are always going to be strong in it. Brighton must look at that and think, we, you know, we should go far in that competition.

I totally agree. And I think I've said before on here, it almost feels a little bit unfair. that the Premier League clubs are in the conference league, but that's a separate argument. And, Ali, you should be giving a name credit to our excellent BBC sound engineer who helped to provide that audio.

You're spot on there, John. Well done for picking me up on that. That was Ian Mitchell, actually, who I have not worked with too often, Ian. Ian does a lot of cricket, plays a lot of cricket, but actually works on a lot of cricket, but has done some football with us.

And yes, he had particularly for the effects of the stadium, so not just our microphones, but different microphones in places to get the sound, the balance of the sound just right, so that you could hear our voices cutting across the amazing atmosphere inside the stadium. So, no, you're absolutely right. Top job done by Ian. Listen, we've got a lot to pack in in this particular podcast, so I think we should crack on with it. But Ian, Ian, you are going to be the first of the three of us to cross the Atlantic, aren't you?

I am indeed, yes. We've got the two warm-up games for England against New Zealand and Costa Rica before the World Cup starts. So, yes, Florida bound. Have you finished all your part? Nope. I've got to say, this week, I've actually at times felt a little bit overwhelmed by the amount of work that we've got to do. And because some of the nations actually haven't announced their squads as yet, I'm actually having to take a gamble. I'm taking a punt on a number of.

them because I've done so far I'm on 19 teams of the 48 so I've done well so I've really cracked on this week but but they are they are literally the basics yeah they are name age caps and then I haven't got it I haven't delved a little bit deeper into them but you won't be commentating on all 48 countries will you in there playing at the the world no no yeah I mean we'll do that more I would imagine on our I think the questions that we've got for the the the World Cup Q and A sure so I'll keep my powder dry for that.

Very good. I'm actually, I mean, you're overwhelmed by the prep we've got to do for the games. I'm overwhelmed by the admin that still needs to be done. The kind of forms I've got to fill in. That's what I've been doing. That's what I've been doing this week. Yeah. Craig.

You know what we said we've got to crack on? Yes, we should crack on. Okay, okay. Listen, on the England front, later on in this episode, we are bringing you a special sit-down interview. I'm really looking forward to this, actually. This is John in conversation with the man who plays Gareth Southgate in the new BBC drama,

England, that is Joseph Fines. So John and Joseph Fines in conversation. Stay tuned for that. But on Saturday, as John's been mentioning, five o'clock kickoff, five o'clock in the afternoon, we will have commentary of Parry-Sajama against Arsenal on Five Live, John Murray with Matt Upson alongside him, Steve Crosman presenting from the Pushkus Arena for the Champions League final. And John, just link in the two, because you were just mentioning you were at Crystal Palace for the last day, the Premier League season. Do you think that the fact that they've won the Premier League had time to enjoy that, etc., etc., just sends them into this final in a really sort of positive state of mind,

whereas had it gone the other way in the title race, this could have felt very different, I think, this weekend. Well, what we know, Ali, is that this final is going to be the classic contrast of styles, don't we? and I think without question PSG have to be the favourites I feel that in all of the time that I've done this job I think Louis Enrique's Paris-San-German are one of the most exciting teams to watch

and it's been brilliantly built obviously with the money that they've had to do that but Arsenal have spent lots and lots of money as well and what is an unknown is what is the effect of Arsenal getting over the line and winning the Premier League is that going to boost them on to new heights which it could do,

or is this new experience now of playing in the Champions League, having achieved what they've done in the Premier League, is it going to be a step too far? And I think with PSG having the recent experience of doing what they did, which also, I think, is this impressive

performance that I've ever seen a team put in in a final in Munich last year against a very disappointing inter, but even so, PSG absolutely. Talk about turning up on the day. That was one of the best examples of turning up on the day that I've seen in sport.

However, I don't think that will happen again. That's a one-off. So I think that actually, in a strange way, gives Arsenal more of a chance. But I think, you know, man for man, such a settled team as we don't know if, like, Hakemi, Dembele, it looks like Dembele-O-Befit,

as we speak right now, we don't know about Hekimi. But for Arsenal, I think there are a lot of positions in the team where you think, well, who's going to play there? So it's a little bit more unsurricular. I was at the LMA Awards in central London in midweek, Ali, and Mikhail Artetta was named as the Premier League manager of the year and actually sent the video clip to John because he talked, he said that he sensed that we've got the energy, the positivity and the confidence within the club. We now have an amazing opportunity to talk about a new chapter for Arsenal and we are convinced we are going to do it.

And I've got to say, he actually sounded quite bullish. that particular night. Well, did you hear the interview that I did with him on the pitch at Salhurst Park last Sunday night where the last question and he gave, honestly, so he should, he's just won the Premier League,

but he gave a very, very good interview. And the last thing I said to him was, and what about this time next week? Mikkel. And he said, we'll do it again! Meaning trophy left celebration. So, you know, I think you're right, Ian. I think it's that belief thing, isn't it?

That's how he's approaching. watching it. Yeah, and, and, you know, it's an obvious thing to say, but an opportunity that they've got to try and seize because they've only ever been in one European Cup final before. That was back in 2006. And I know their progression in this competition in recent seasons, the way they're going, you think they may get a chance to be in more, but you never, you never, ever know, do you? So, back in 2006, you'd think, well, Arson-Bengar and Arsenal will have another opportunity to win a Champions League final, and they didn't. And historically as well, Ian from the Paris Saint-German point of view,

and I heard Steve Crosman talking about this on the Euroleagues podcast last night, which is available on the Football Daily Feed, which is the start of our build-up to the Champions League final, trying to win back-to-back European Cup finals. I know Rail Madrid, you know, obviously with their domination of the competition, they feature large in that. But it's a difficult thing to do. It is, but I agree with John that this is a Paris-San-Gamand-side

that you can only admire. And yes, I know that they've, like John said, they've thrown the money at it, but the way that they play their football and also the amount of emerging talent they've got, this is a team that potentially could dominate Europe for a number of years. Now, whether Louis Enrique thinks at some stage that there might be other attractions, such as the Premier League, you know, in the not-too-distant future, then who knows? but I just think, I mean, I'm full of admiration for him as a person and also what he's achieved as a coach,

but you think about the hardship that he's had to go through through the adversity. And I think that what he's assembled, and he's not afraid to crack the whip either. You think back to last year when they played Arsenal in the group stages, he left them belly behind because there was a little bit of discipline. You know, he's had the hardline approach as well, but I just like the way that they play football. I just think there's such an exciting.

an attacking team to watch. And as John says, it'll be that contrast of styles, but it should make for a captivating game. Yeah, and just talking about those two managers, that was part of the show last night. So that's what you can listen to on the BBC Sounds app at the moment on the Football Daily Feed. As part of that EuroLeague show was Steve Crosman,

Guillain Ballagay and Julian Laurent, sort of doing an in-depth feature on Louis Enrique and Mikhail Artetta and what makes them tick. And also, we should point out, we speak now, unless something changes, this final is not available on free-to-air television. So therefore, 5 Live, the place to listen to it. 5 o'clock kickoff on Saturday evening. I don't think we've had correspondence from G-Long before.

Geelong? Geelong. Is that it? Is it J-Long, not J-Long? J-Long. J-Long? Uplet In Flection. J-Long.

J-Long. Geelong, Australia. Geelong? Has a question for us. Hi, TCV team. Can anyone explain why the UAFA club finals in the order, Europa League, then Conference League,

then Champions League, please. My gut instinct would be that if there's a hierarchy of the finals, then the order of the finals should be Conference League, Europa League and Champions League. Am I right? Or am I right? Keep at the good work.

Hashtag JFJ. Cheers. Well, Jay, I hate to point this out to you, and it's nothing to do with your little payoff there at the end, but I think you're wrong, you're wrong. Because the reason being is that the Europa League is the secondary UAFA competition,

and if it was played days before the Champions League final, it wouldn't necessarily get as much attention as it does a week before. And I think that is the reason why the Europa League is played in a separate week to the Champions League. And if you look, I mean, I know this changes all the time. If you look at the EFL playoff, certainly at the end of this season, we had championship went first, didn't it, on the Saturday evening, and then League 1 on the Sunday and League 2 on the,

but that's changed before, hasn't it? So that moves around a bit. Because the championship playoff final always used to be the Monday. Yeah. But they flipped it. But I do see why they've done it with the Europa League, because you have all the build-up to the Europa League, then you have all the fallout.

Whereas, I mean, still I'd say there's been a sufficient coverage of Crystal Palace's success, but I think it's because the hierarchy and the decision makers at UEFA do not want the Europa League to be overshadowed in the buildup to the Champions League final. And that's the reason why it's played in advance, what, 10 days beforehand. The other thing, just moving it on now. So John is in Budapest. You have already got that show on the Football Daily, the Euroleagues with Steve Crosman, preview in the final with Guillem Ballagher, and Julianne Laurent. The next episode of the Football Daily after this one

will be the Champions League debrief, in fact, with all the reaction to it, but John and Matt Upsen with the commentary from 5 o'clock on Saturday evening. The other, I was going to say, not thing, but I mean major weekend of football that's happened since we've last spoken to you on this podcast, of course, was the last weekend of the Premier League season. I'm going to start with an email here, and this is going to make Ian Blush,

but I'm really pleased someone has messaged in to say this because this was exactly how I felt sitting at West Ham listening to Ian's commentary of Tottenham Everton with everything else that was going on so obviously there was the relegation picture going on and all the fight for the European places so Richard in Oxford gets in touch

and says hi gents I hope you're all well and finding time to relax after a huge run of games well not quite Richard full disclosure I'm firmly in the J for J for J. Justice for John Camp but that's for another day I came out of a 10 hour shift at my local hospital on Sunday to hear the second half commentary

of the last day of the season I feel compelled to contact you to say what a masterful piece of work Ian Dennis produced of the Tottenham against Everton match. His enthusiasm, tone and accuracy completely painted a wonderful picture not only of the match, but he and others skillfully juggle between events

unfolding up and down the country, keeping listeners updated and invested in the day. It really was just a master class in how to provide a radio commentary. All the best for the World Cup, gents. Have a good summer, Richard in Oxford. And you don't have to say anything to that, Ian, but it was one of those where as soon as my game finished,

I picked up my phone and I messaged you because I felt that. I just sitting there, I thought, wow, Denno is on it today. You know, that just, I don't know whether you felt the same guy. I just thought that sounds so good. Yeah, but that is lovely, lovely words from Richard, and he's absolutely spot on Ian. And if you weren't red-faced already, then you probably would be.

That's two jibes that you've had. at me now. Have you been out in the sun by the way? You do seem quite in the heart face. No, it's just blood pressure, I think. It's an early start. By the way, thank you to Richard. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Your spot on Richard. Your spot on, you're spot on Richard. And to everybody else

who sent me kind messages as well. Yeah. So as it was, West Ham Ham are the ones relegated. There is, though, a silver lining to the cloud some good news for the Hammers. Managing Down at West Time Nuno's staying in charge, John Nice to hear that again Yeah

Well, you were there, Ali You were there? Yes Did you... Was your good feeling That it would be Staying on? I think there'll be mixed feelings

About that Because given his impressive record As a manager In the Premier League It feels like it's been a bit muddled At West Ham This season I mean from his point

I mean, there's all sorts of issues to be discussed there, but just in terms of his stewardship of the team, there's various decisions during the season in terms of playing players out of position, not being able to settle on his sort of regular midfield lineup. I remember the game, they were 2-0 up against Bournemouth. Callum Wilson, I think, had scored both. He took him off early in the second half.

You know, there's quite a few things I think West Ham fans could grumble about, but obviously his track record, if he's committed and what he did with Wolves in the championship, you know, we know that he is a good manager. And again, the fans applauded the players. I wouldn't say particularly Nuno. Obviously, the ire really was for David Sullivan and the board, and it was very noticeable that he vacated his seat

about 15 minutes before the end. So they were at him during the second half, and then he'd gone by the end of it. But, you know, that's going to be quite a job, actually, getting them out of the championship. They'll lose Boeing, won't they? I mean, the rumor saying that, you know, Jared Bowen is Liverpool.

There might be after Jared Bowen. There's a lot of talk about Bowen potentially going to Merseyside. I can't see how he can stay there. There'll be other players who'll look to move on. And therefore, they've got to get the recruitment right. Because like you say, Ali, it's toxic regarding the ownership. That's a huge, huge problem for them going forward. On a slightly different note, Ali,

I know that you wanted to have a word about Ken on the front desk at Bournemouth after our story last week. Yeah, the four-finger Kit Kat stroke. I caught up on the brilliant confectionary chat from TCV last week. So Ken, I'm very lucky. I mean, Ken and Ken is, as you say, John, the welcome you get at Bournemouth. But I think particularly if you're relative local, so I live in Salisbury there, my closest Premier League club, and quite often Andy Gillies,

who's based down in the South West and does football production for us, we are on games together. and when Ken hears we're coming we actually even get sort of I would say even more red carpet treatment than you got because we get the homemade Dorset apple cake that I think is made by Ken's daughter

and it is absolutely sensational honestly and the looks you get when you're eating that at half time and everyone else has gone inside to get what they get and our Dorset apple cake arrives on the Five Live desk I mean Ken is a he's a proper legend for doing that We do get brilliantly looked after there.

Well, that's an upgrade on your four fingers. Yeah, well, there's a... So now Bournemouth are involved in European football. That means that they should be playing... Bournemouth never get selected. A Bournemouth home match is never selected for the 4.30 kickoff on a Sunday. I can't remember when the last one was. So now, they should be in that slot more...

Well, they should be in that slot more regularly on the basis of the football that they play as much as anything. John... John's making a serious pitch for some Dorset, Appalcade there. That's exactly. Next season. No, first and foremost,

Ali, I'm thinking of the feast of football that Bournemouth. Yeah. Their new manager, Marco Rosa, I'm sure he'll carry on from where. And don't you? Heroila leaves off. You have to say, though, don't you?

For Bournemouth, for Sondland, the fact that they have got into Europe as well for Regis Lebris. And even though they missed out on European football, Keith Andrews as well to get Brentford to ninth. I think Bournemouth, Sunderland and Brentford, for what they've achieved for their respective aims this season, has been excellent. Absolutely right.

So that's the Premier League season wrapped up. As Ian mentioned earlier, just remember that before the World Cup, we are going to do a TCV Q&A special. So if you've got any questions ahead of the World Cup, please do get in touch. TCV at BBC.co.com. I think that's the first time I've given the email address in the pod, actually.

And the voice notes as well on WhatsApp to the Football Daily number, that is 08,289-389. Five-Ly sports. My favourite World Cup moment as a fan is also my first memory of the World Cup, and it was Gordon Strachan at Mexico 86, trying to jump at that advertising hoarding. And I used to score goals in the back garden and then pretend to celebrate just like Gordon Strachan.

Stracken's then, Stracken for score. The World Cup's such a special tournament, because Scotland don't manage to qualify it very often. So every 28 years we have the chance to travel to some far-flung place and celebrate not always the football, but the gathering of the clans is a great way to unite the nation and follow your football team wherever you are in the world. The People World Cup 2026.

Coming soon. Listen on BBC Sounds. 30 years after two civilian airplanes were shot down, why is the US government now bringing charges against the former Cuban president, Raul Castro? I'm Asma Khalid, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Cuba's government is calling this all a political maneuver,

but the Cuban exile community in Miami calls it justice, 30 years in the making. Is the U.S. setting the stage for a military intervention? For more, check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The commentators view on the Football Daily with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray, and Ian Dennis. Right, our clash of the commentator. title decided what a thriller is on the way. But now we're really pleased to bring you a special feature interview on the commentator's view. This is John Murray, who's had a sit down chat with the Gareth Southgate actor Joseph Fines from the new BBC drama, Dear England. It's based on

James Graham's Olivier Award-winning player the same name. So, having played Gareth Southgate on stage and now screen, it is a role that has taken up a lot of Joseph's time over the past few years. It has. It has years of my life. It's the waistcoat that keeps giving. And I'm very lucky to have participated in the National Theatre's rendition that then went on to the West End and now is a four-partner for the BBC. And it looks at some gnarly subjects, but through the lens of the beautiful game. It's a fictionalised event, of course, by James Graham, but also it is based on a lot of fact and great detailed research. And so, It's a testament to his team, Steve Holland, and also a testament to Piper Grange, the psychologists that he brought in, brilliantly played by Jodie Whittaker. I should say as well,

because normally on this podcast, Joseph, we are all commentators, and the guests that we have on are invariably sports commentators, mainly football commentators, and Dear England features a lot of football commentary in it as well, doesn't it? It does. Great, great commentators. by great, great commentators.

And it's lovely to have their voices, which are so akin to the game. I'll let you into a little secret. And I'll talk you about this a little further on. But the commentary on Harry King, missing the penalty in Qatar, that appears on the stage show, was my commentary.

And I've got a story to tell you about that a little bit later on. But first of all, I just want to ask you, I mean, you must be a football supporter, yes? I am. I haven't had a great run this year. I thought it might be our year early on for Chelsea, not the case at all.

But John, I know that you put the commentary on, and I did hear that maybe they asked you to come into the studio and relive some of your commentary as you had done before. In actual fact, the commentary on I was rather surprised when I watched it, because I've only seen the first episode so far. And I was kind of expecting that it would be the TV commentary, but we're somewhat surprised to find that actually even more of my original commentary

which actually appeared on the air on Five Live is being used in the TV program as well. But again, we'll come on to that in a moment of two because I want to know about your England supporting history as well and the reason I ask this is, I know you're a similar age to Garrette Southgate and I know that one of his first England memories was running home from school

in time to see Brian Robson's score at the World Cup in 19. 1982. And that's a very similar memory to the first memory I have, England at a World Cup, because there had been that spell for a long time between 1970 and 82, when England had not qualified for the World Cups. So what about that history for you as well? Your England following history. My England following history is, it's almost 82, but I would say 86. I remember that moment very well. And I think for some reason, it's weird how that story is now

a part of my professional acting life as it was very much a part of my growing up. And I was, you know, 16 and remember it very well. And from then on, I remember it painfully. And this huge expectations that I had that I forced upon myself and those I was looking at. And it is interesting how we as a nation live under this, bringing it home expectation. But if you look at the track record, if you look at the data, you know, which is, and a hard cold truth, you have to take a step back from that high expectations. But what was interesting is I just saw these golden generations of players

that sadly as a team never quite got beyond the semifinal or sometimes quarterfinals. And I couldn't understand that. But now having done the piece, I kind of feel like I've got a better handle in a very small, you know, amateurish way of, of, what it is to really bring, not just players, but bring a team together. And I think that's where Gareth just excelled. Do you think that it was important for you to have that ingrained in you to deliver the performance that you did?

That's a great question, John. Yes, I do. I think at a very authentic emotional level, I feel tied to that pain. And I know a lot of people watching it will revisit those chapters of their lives that happen every four years on the great world stage. and will be emotionally drawn in. I am emotionally attached and tethered to Gareth through that AG6 tournament. And I think as a result, it's weirdly paid dividends to an authenticity within the piece that I'm in today. You do have a remarkable similarity to him, looking at you now.

Clearly that must have helped, but you still must have had to be. put in a great deal of work. Tell us how you did it. How did you transform yourself into Carous Southgate? Because watching it the other night, as I did, it was, you know, just some of the little things that you do. I think it's remarkable. And, you know, I've worked with Garrow Southgate.

You know, over the whole time it was England manager before then, you know, I've seen him close up hundreds of times. And just some of the little things that I noticed, I'm really surprised that you picked up on that. because it's not something that I'd noticed. Just the way that he walks, where he carried his bag over his shoulder, the way he sort of moved his head.

Well, thank you, John. That's very kind. And I wish I'd come to you when I was doing my research because I couldn't get access to the man himself. And sometimes I feel if you really want to access somebody, you need to talk to those who know that person. And thank you for your kind words. I looked fastidiously for hours at interviews

and how he carried himself. that's only part of the picture because that's in front of cameras and it's all very much dialogue which is rehearsed people come out and they say it's a game of two halves and you never really get to really access the person but I felt I accessed him through his audio book

so I listened to that and he gave a lot away and then some one or two interviews that he gave on a more personal note and there was so much beyond the mannerisms that I wanted to get as well. So once I found I got that conceit down, my job is to get the audience to, at least halfway believe they're looking at the man himself so then we can get onto the more interesting subjects beyond mannerism, which is both his critical juncture that comes from 96 and how he could

pick himself up and go into the most extraordinary pressurized job. Having had that history, I think shows great bravery, strength and leadership. So it's really articulating those points as much as the mannerisms, the interior of the man. Yeah, now I have a feeling that perhaps it's only once we see what happens next and further down the road that maybe we do properly appreciate what it was that he did. Because, as I say, having dealt with him so much over the years, he's probably as thoughtful a person in football that I've had dealings with, yet at the same time is a hard-nosed football manager.

So there is a balance there as well, isn't there? How often have you actually crossed paths with him? I had the absolute pleasure of meeting him in a kind of strange circumstance, which took me by surprise. It was sandwiched between having finished the play, which was almost, well, it was almost a year of my life, and then beginning the BBC series just before filming. And I was at a King's Trust event,

and he's an ambassador as I am. And I was just about to go on stage to award these young entrepreneurs a prize. And just before I stepped on, I got a tap on the shoulder. And I looked around, and a meter from where I was standing was the face that I thought I was. And so I had this strange out-of-body experience and became very gushy and asked for a selfie, which I never do, you know, not even from Al Pacino would I ask for a selfie. But if it was Sir Gareth, I did. Because I just feel in an intrinsic level, I have such deep respect for his mentorship and prowess and thoughtfulness and articulation and kind of gentle strength and the way that he composes himself.

And I think that's a big lesson for all of us and fans and within mentoring. It's how you deal with disappointment and how you deal with the win as well. But invariably there's always going to be a loss. and I think for the players and for the fans it's how we compose ourselves is key and he's got great composure. I can tell you, Joseph, that one of the interviews

that I most remember doing with Gareth Southgate was after the final in Germany in Berlin, Euro 2024. When we obviously just finished on commentating on the match, England have lost, this is it. We know we pretty much know that that's it, the end for Gareth Southgate. came down to the interview area which is right next to the England dressing rooms

and he's already done a couple of interviews but he's then gone back into the dressing room and obviously spoken to the squad and you know that must have been talk about the depths of when you reach the point where you think well this is the end we've got so close and we've not crossed the line

dressing door opens and he comes straight over and speaks to me and having dealt with him so often the fact that he was able to handle himself with, again, such graciousness at that moment was remarkable. I've never heard that interview back, but I must do that sometime and have a listen back to it. Because, you know, that kind of summed him up that he was able to hold himself as he did at that point, at that point. I bet though when he saw you, because he's got a very wry sense of humour, I bet he saw the amusing side of that, didn't he? I think he did. He had a twinkle in his eyes as he tapped me on the shoulder.

And he took me by surprise, and I think he quite liked that. John, I'm definitely going to search for that interview because I think that's at the heart of this piece is that kind of value of leadership. And it's interesting that James Graham has set this at a time where it's sort of Brexit and COVID and the revolving doors of power at number 10 and a lack of leadership, if I may say.

And here we have a man who was an unassuming caretaker who came in but kept the moral line and leadership in the most gentle, unassuming and powerful way. And it's for good reason he's knighted, I think. But John, I'm definitely going to look at that interview. That would be really moving for me to see that. You know, it's funny as well you should say that because during the course of that time, very often, Garif would be asked difficult questions about all manner of things when he was in the public spotlight.

And very often it was said, and I heard it said, that perhaps he almost would, would be well served to be in a position like that because, you know, the different issues and subjects that he had thrown at him over the course of the time that he was England manager. I don't think any other England manager has had to deal with with that. Let me tell you as well about the, so my personal experience, if I may be allowed to do that. Yes, please. So when the premiere first happened for the stage show, various colleagues, friends were at the premiere. And I remember that night being texted and said, your commentary is in it.

And I thought, wow, I wasn't expecting that. This was complete news to me. And of course, as the production went on, different people would go and I'd keep getting text matches. And for one reason I doesn't know that. They did ask him very kindly to come and go, but I couldn't because we had football matches to commentate on. And anyway, eventually I got to the point where I got a ticket

when it was at the Prince Edward Theatre. You weren't in it. It was your understudy. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm off. I'm so sorry. Well, it just so happened. But he also was very, very good, I must say.

And so all credit to him. Anyway, when I'm sitting there, I know this is coming up. And it's obviously late on in the production when Harry Kane misses the penalty in Qatar. And it was one of the strangest experiences I've ever had because I know I've done it. It's however it's going to appear is, you know,

what appeared on the air. I've got no investment in this other than sitting and hearing it. But as it got closer, I actually got more nervous and more nervous. And then it's, at that point, when it comes out and it's booming out across the theatre,

I was just sitting there thinking, don't cock it up. Don't cock it up. And again, I very rarely listen back to myself, so I wasn't sure what it was that I was going to say. and then it happens and you get through to it and it was almost like a massive relief

and I thought oh thank goodness for that so it's interesting you you felt so that was the actor Guna I think who played you but it was your words verbatim it's the actual thing that played on five lives it's the actual thing so it was it was your voice it's the real it's the real commentary

it's me and it's the real commentary which is that's amazing so you and you felt palpably nervous as it was playing out. Yeah, yeah, which was going to leave me on two. You know, when you watch yourself back, which you must do, you know, you've mostly done that for years and years, years now, how do you feel when you watch yourself back and then when this appears on screen or whatever production it is, whatever film it is, how do you feel about that? It's interesting. There are two angles. One is I'm uncomfortable with it. That's the first thing. I think we all are,

I think so. It's not really super, I don't think it's a natural human thing to have to see yourself back. I mean, if I can distance myself if it's a character, but then I get caught up in the choices I made or the choices the editor and the director made. And so there's all of those sort of more production-based questions. But bottom line is I'm deeply uncomfortable with it. And it does stress me. So I don't tend to do it. it's even more stressful when you're in an auditorium full of thousands of people watching. It's excruciating, quite frankly, John. And I'd far rather be at the bar. Yeah.

Do you know what? I totally agree with that. I'd find it excruciating to listen back. And that's why I can't imagine. I know Gareth hasn't seen this. And I can't imagine. He always said he wasn't keen because he was doing the real thing. Yeah, exactly.

He's been doing the harder job. But I hope that if anyone that sees it that knows him well, like you do or, or, or players or family or even himself. As I said to him when I last saw him, this really is a celebration of your extraordinary mentorship. And yes, it's a drama and yes, it's an approximation and we'll get things wrong. And it's a little bit fantastical.

But at its core, we hope the messages that we get across are vital and what he would agree with. And I hope he is honored of the honoring that we're doing him and James has done him because he really is. is for us a hero. Yes, James Graham, who I heard Nick Robinson describe as almost the national bard when you did your interview with him. What other question is, have you ever fancy turning your hand to football commentary? Oh my God, I tell you what I would die for is to sit next to you and just listen to you live at a game. If there's any way, John, you might invite me

one day to whatever game I would love to hear an expert and be present with them. That would be great. I think it's one of those things football commentary, probably like acting in that probably people think,

and rightly so, think I could do that. No, no, no. I think there's a dexterity and also just remembering all those names. That's one thing. I'm like, my God, has this gentleman done their homework? Well, you say that. I watch you guys going out under the stage and I think, don't fancy that.

Listen, we'll try and get you along to Stanford Bridge with us. Oh, I would be brilliant. And it's a great position we've got at Stanford Bridge. I don't know where you go to Stanford Bridge, but it's right up the top of the main. Matthew Harding in. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's a brilliant view we have there. So that would be a lot of fun to do that. But listen, I hope that people are able to go back on IPlayer, watch it, and enjoy it in the way that already millions and millions of people have, whether it's on the stage or on the screen.

I hope so. And thank you for your wonderful participation in collaboration with us as well, John. What a lovely interview. Yeah. And I think that was the, because he was doing the rounds that morning. And this was going to be the last one. So, you know, that can go two ways, can't it? But I mean, we actually. spoke for a good deal longer than that and yeah he was he was great company it would be a lot of fun as I said to to get him along to a football match that last point John is is an interesting one isn't it about the element of performance in the football commentator's role and the actors role because obviously they're following a script and have got to infuse it with emotions and feelings and drama whatever and ours is completely improvised but we are we are just describing what we see but

there but there is an element of there's definitely an element of performance in both, which is why you think someone like Joseph Vines and the actors, if they had the knowledge, could do it. Well, I've always thought that. I think I've said it to you two before, that what we do is a performance. It's an unscripted 90-minute performance, and that's just the match, never mind everything else. And I think there will be similarities between what we do and doing a performance on the stage.

I think it'll be the same thing. We know we say it all the time. There'll be bits that you think, oh, that went well tonight. bits where you think, hmm, could have done that better. So, you know, the similarities are certainly that. Well, if you want to watch it, it's on the I player, and it's called Dear England, and it's definitely something I'm going to do, and it's brilliant. It was brilliant to have Joseph Binds on the pod in conversation with John. Let's rattle through some quick correspondence before we were doing a big build to this, the clash of the commentators title decided today.

Whichever way this goes, well, if it particularly goes one way, there's going to be court cases and appeals, and I mean, it's never going to end. But any, Anyway, we weren't going to do an unintended pub name this episode until this dropped into our inbox. This is from Gareth Barlow, not that one. Hi guys, absolutely love the pod. Although not football related, I thought you might enjoy the commentary from the recent Cooper's Hill cheese rolling competition. I don't know the name of the commentator, but he manages to cram in some absolute gems in the short time he has as dozens of people chase a wheel of cheese down a very steep hill.

Here they go. 2026 is underway. The cheese goes off to the right-hand side of shot. Chris Anderson looking good as he's been cut off. He's gone head over heels for a double gloucester. Tom Kopker has won it for Germany. Gareth says my particular favourite might even be an unintended bar name, Head Over Heels.

I imagine this would be where hopeful romantics meet for their first date and the staff place bets on which couples will make it back for a second date. P.S. great to hear that John. has finally got justice after all this time. Thanks, Gareth. Also, our Reese story arc chaps looks like it's reached a nice conclusion. So this was where we found. We had two listeners called Reese.

This is where we found we had two listeners called Reese. Same spelling, both from East London, both West Ham fans, and both from the 90s. So we were looking for ways we could distinguish between them. This message has come in, which reads, Dear TCV, it's one of the original two Reese's here. I'm incredibly jealous of my counterpart's surname Mavericks. I can just imagine him jumping in his jet-like Tom Cruise and zooming off to the London Stadium. To distinguish myself, I'd like to take up Ali's idea of being known as Reese the Iceman.

This is because my other sporting love is Formula One, where I listen to the BBC's Chequered Flag podcast, and Kimmy Reichenham was my favourite driver before he retired, and he shared that nickname. I'm also blonde, just like Top Guns Iceman. Concerning our new member of the Reese Collective, the Welsh spelling Reese, I think we should welcome him with open arms to our club along with all other forms of spelling. The more Reese, the merrier, loving the pot is always,

Reese, the Iceman. Also, our TCV dog 11 is taking shape. We have so many listeners with dogs who have links to football. Dave from Newcastle-upon-time has written in. Hi, I'd like to suggest my dog for your team. Tino is our assistant. six-year-old black and white collie obsessed with balls.

As Newcastle United fans, we tried a number of names which were rejected by my non-footballing wife, Pauline. She dismissed Jackie, as in Melbourne, and Alan, as in Shearer. I'm not sure about Alan as a dog's name. Because she saw the direction of travel. However, she hadn't heard of Tino, and we got away with it, although it fits well with The present Tino, he was actually named after Asprea, so needs to have a free roll up front, and he's a bit of a maverick, so probably not captain material.

Very good. Dave, thank you. Chris in Sydney's left us a voice note. Hi, TCV team. I would like to nominate my Australian Terrier Dave for the dog team. There are two grounds for Dave's nomination. Firstly, his full name was Uncle David Seaman Chippendale, Donaghy, Natalie. He was named by a family committee who just had. added names over the course of his 18 years. My contribution, of course, was the former Arsenal and England goalkeeper. The second ground relates to Dave's severe, but thankfully short-term football injury. In December 2000, Patrick Vieira equalised for Arsenal against Spurs. It was 6am in Sydney,

and I watched in bed. When the goal went in, I jumped so high that I landed on the floor, right on top of where Dave was sleeping. It took us both two days to recover from our respective leg. injuries. Anyway, love the pod and please keep going over the off-season. Oh, and P. P. Papp, Guadiola, may now be available for the coaching role. Thank you. Before Clash of the commentators, good email from Kenneth in Glasgow, which sums up this season of the commentators view quite nicely. As a TCV ever present, I continue to enjoy the pod immensely. However, the membership criteria is stretching me to the limit. In an attempt to remain relevant, I recently moved to Adelaide, and once I got settled in, bought a Labrador called Robbie.

Thinking I ticked all the boxes, I now find that Robbie has to be affiliated with a football team in the hope of making it into the Dogs 11. I assure you I'm working on this, but currently a bit preoccupied with the myriad of form filling required to change my name to Reese. Also, how does one go about changing their allegiance to a football team? Do I have to write to West Ham directly,

or is it simply just a personal choice? Any advice would be gratefully received, keep up the good work, Reese and Robbie in Adelaide, known as Kenneth from Glasgow. Very good, Kenneth. Proving TCV credentials there across everything. TCV at BBC.co.uk.

Right, here comes the big moment then. On to our clash of the commentator's title decider. I had a little look at the league table and wondered, given that I've got eight wins and John's got eight wins, why I couldn't be involved in this. But I've played 17 games and you two have played 16. So that is why. I've already played my full allocation of matches.

our league leader Ian is on a four-match losing streak and has opened the door to John Murray to a potentially share of the title for this season. So it really is all on this. The Justice for John campaign has been out in full force. We'll get to it in a moment, but first, a couple of messages of support. Firstly, from Kevin in Whitstable.

It seems I'm in a camp of one that's supporting Ian all the way through this. I wanted to voice my support as he comes forward into this new title decider, which I don't think it should be anyway. And I hope Ian wins to put everything right and square, which is as it should be. Fair is fair. Team Ian, come on, make it work. Hello to the Holy Trinity from Carmen in Bromyard, Herrifordshire.

If you're listening to this, then I'm amazed because I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to these voice note thingies to send a message to John. message reads Let it go Hashtag team deno Cheers Come on Carmen Well thank you

Carmen and thank you Kevin Your support is greatly appreciated I feel a little bit like Hall City Going into the playoff final And indeed like the whole owner I might have to say that

Should it not go my way Then we might have to take it to court I hope it's going to be more exciting than the championship playoff final. Yeah. So here's how it works. Two of us taking turns to answer a question and give us many correct answers as we can in 30 seconds. So, uh, in this showpiece title decider, who is going to go first? Well, Ian, as the league leader, should decide that. Okay. I'll go first. Oh, it's a big call. Big cool. Big cool, big cool, big cool. Right. So waiting for John to

disconnect from Budapest. Definitely need this to be. Yeah, above board I can see that the headphone socket has been disconnected. John cannot hear, and he will not be able to lip read behind our lip mics. Here we go then, Ian, the big one for you. A title you thought you'd already won, but you're now going to try and prove it again. Barcelona have this week agreed a deal worth more than £69 million for Newcastle and England forward, Anthony Gordon. You just need to name any British player to have played in La Liga.

Any British player to have played in the Spanish, Any British? British player, British. Your time starts now. Sammy Lee, Michael Robinson, Vinnie Samways, Marcus Rashford, Gary Linneica, Mark Hughes, Steve Archibald, Laurie Cunningham, David Beckham, Steve McMahon, Jude Bellingham, Jonathan Woodgate. That, that, that is the best I've ever heard. You play the game. I think.

I don't want to say, I think you've got this in the bag. He's got no chance. I think. I think. That was excellent, Ian. That was really measured and calm. Very good. You pleased with that?

Well, we'll see. We'll see. Here he is. I'm back. BBC's football correspondent. Right, John. Are you ready to go? Yes.

Here we go, then. Barcelona, have this week agreed a deal worth more than 69 million pounds. for Newcastle and England forward Anthony Gordon. I just need you to name any British player, British player, to have played in La Liga. Any British player to have played in the Spanish top flight ever. Okay, your time starts now. Marcus for Ashford, Steve Archiebald,

Gary Lennox, Steve McNam and Michael Owen, David Beckham, Laurie Cunningham other team Sammy Lee Michael Robinson Jude Bellingham Oh

now Oh my goodness Nathan's producer Nathan He's immediately said out of time He said he said Bellingham was out of time That could be absolutely crucial That could be crucial

That's going to be tight It's going to be really tight And what's interesting is you've almost repeated each other's names there. You've gone, they're from various different areas of football, but you've gone for very, very similar names. So John said, Marcus Rashford, correct. Steve Archibald correct, Gary Lineca correct, Steve McManaman, correct, that's four, David Beckham, 5, Laurie Cunningham 6, Michael O in 7, Sammy Lee, 8.

And said Michael Robinson. You both said Michael Robinson, which apparently is not a correct answer. So John has eight correct answers. So Ian needs eight. No, he doesn't. Well, a draw in fact. No, a draw would win Ian the title. So eight would be enough for Ian.

So here we go. Ian's answers were. Sammy Lee, one, correct. Vinnie Samways. Two, what an answer that is, correct. Marcus Rashford, three. Gary Linear four. Mark Hughes five.

Steve Archibald, six. Laurie Cunningham, seven. David Beckham 8, Steve McManerman, 9, Jude Bellingham 10 and Jonathan Woodgate 11. Convincing win. That's very good. Very, very good. How does it feel, Ian? Congratulations, Ian.

Well, all I would say is this. Successful. Justice for John or justice has been done? That's for the listener to decide. Neither have you said Trent Alexander Arnold. No. No. Oh, Jermaine Pennant.

Gareth Bale? You must have said Gareth Bale. They're not say Bale? No. I said Gareth Bale. No, was it, Gareth Bale? Crikey. Well, there we go. Ian is the Clash of the Commentators Champion. After all of that, all of that nonsense throughout the entire season,

Ian claims the title in the end. Well done, Ian. Very good. Right. So that is it for this episode of the commentator's view. Keep those World Cup questions coming in, by the way. Our World Cup Q&A episode is out next Friday. So the email address is TCV at BBC.com.uk. Or you can send us a message or a voice note on WhatsApp to 08,289-369.

And remember, you can find each and every episode of the commentator's view by scrolling down your Football Daily Feet. The way he went about that, John, I've never heard him as focused, measured. The way he delivered his answers, honestly, it was pure business today. I think you deserve it for Vinny Samways alone. I mean, that was just a sensational answer. Kevin in Wittsdouble has been vindicated and like Hall City, justice has been served. Yeah, and Carmen will be very excited as well, won't she? Sometimes it goes really slow.

Like the ball's taken forever. And you already know before it goes in, you already know. But that bit, that bit before, We know that feeling. The FIFA World Cup, 2026. Coming soon. On 5 Live and BBC Sounds. 30 years after two civilian airplanes were shot down,

why is the U.S. government now bringing charges against the former Cuban president, Raul Castro? I'm Asma Khalid, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Cuba's government is calling this all a political maneuver, but the Cuban exile community in Miami calls it justice. 30 years in the making. Is the U.S. setting the stage for a military intervention? For more, check out the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.